1
00:00:00,049 --> 00:00:05,520
February 12th, 2009, Thursday, a
Q400 is on approach into Buffalo.

2
00:00:05,520 --> 00:00:06,499
The crew's tired.

3
00:00:07,059 --> 00:00:10,430
First officer's been awake since
the day before, and somewhere in

4
00:00:10,430 --> 00:00:13,960
that cockpit something goes wrong
that should never, ever happen: a

5
00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:16,309
stall, and the wrong response to it.

6
00:00:16,769 --> 00:00:21,089
49 people on that plane never made it
home, and one person on the ground who

7
00:00:21,159 --> 00:00:22,819
died in the house that the airplane hit.

8
00:00:23,629 --> 00:00:26,569
Out of that wreckage came a
bunch of regulational changes.

9
00:00:27,009 --> 00:00:30,189
Out of those changes, a training
program, and out of that training

10
00:00:30,189 --> 00:00:32,499
program came today's episode.

11
00:00:33,401 --> 00:00:39,151
This is BTC episode 90 of the
Student Pilot Cast, A Tragic Past

12
00:00:39,541 --> 00:00:44,231
Changing the Pilots, or ATP CTP

13
00:01:11,872 --> 00:01:12,442
All right.

14
00:01:12,442 --> 00:01:12,922
Hey, everybody.

15
00:01:12,922 --> 00:01:14,472
Welcome back to the Student Pilot Cast.

16
00:01:14,472 --> 00:01:17,112
I'm Bill, and this is
Beyond the Checkride.

17
00:01:17,462 --> 00:01:21,052
Here at the Student Pilot Cast, we fly
and we learn, and we occasionally get

18
00:01:21,052 --> 00:01:25,112
a little nerdy about the regulatory
history of aviation training programs,

19
00:01:25,185 --> 00:01:28,175
got our buddy Kent back for another
Beyond the Checkride, and if you've

20
00:01:28,175 --> 00:01:31,745
been listening a while, you know
Kent is one of those guys who just

21
00:01:31,745 --> 00:01:33,625
kinda lives and breathes this stuff.

22
00:01:33,625 --> 00:01:36,455
He's like my aviation nerd mentor.

23
00:01:37,045 --> 00:01:41,095
We could talk airplanes for six hours, and
neither of one of us would even notice.

24
00:01:41,615 --> 00:01:45,985
Anyway, he's been on quite a journey
this past year, going from where a

25
00:01:45,985 --> 00:01:50,165
lot of us are right now to sitting
in the right seat of a business jet.

26
00:01:50,515 --> 00:01:53,685
And before he could do any of that,
he had to go through something

27
00:01:53,685 --> 00:01:59,235
called the ATP Certification
Training Program, the ATP-CTP.

28
00:01:59,235 --> 00:02:01,625
And here's what I want you to
understand before we get into it.

29
00:02:02,185 --> 00:02:05,835
That program exists because of a
crash, a completely preventable crash.

30
00:02:06,125 --> 00:02:10,305
some 50 people died, and the aviation
world looked at itself in the mirror

31
00:02:10,305 --> 00:02:14,625
and said, "We have to do better."
The ATP-CTP is part of what came

32
00:02:14,625 --> 00:02:17,895
out of trying to do better, at
least what it looks like on paper.

33
00:02:18,285 --> 00:02:22,395
And today, Kent's gonna tell us
what it looks like in real life.

34
00:02:22,805 --> 00:02:26,675
So whether you got 10 hours or
1,300 hours, this one's for you.

35
00:02:27,955 --> 00:02:30,455
Welcome back, Kent, after
our little holding pattern.

36
00:02:31,305 --> 00:02:34,635
we're back again, and I'm excited to
be back in the cockpit with you talking

37
00:02:34,645 --> 00:02:36,105
again where we happen to record it.

38
00:02:36,225 --> 00:02:36,735
How are you?

39
00:02:38,845 --> 00:02:43,055
I'm great, and I'm laughing because
you said we're gonna be a little nerdy.

40
00:02:44,395 --> 00:02:46,295
we're gonna go full nerdy on this one,

41
00:02:46,475 --> 00:02:47,375
Oh, sweet.

42
00:02:47,555 --> 00:02:47,885
do.

43
00:02:48,065 --> 00:02:52,295
But that's the best part of aviation is
there's always new stuff to learn, right?

44
00:02:52,295 --> 00:02:52,545
And,

45
00:02:52,975 --> 00:02:53,505
Totally

46
00:02:53,945 --> 00:02:57,395
sadly, it wasn't really that
aviation, looked at ourselves

47
00:02:57,395 --> 00:02:58,795
and said we need to do better.

48
00:02:59,695 --> 00:03:05,105
Congress looked at us after Colgan
3407 and said, "Whiskey Tango Foxtrot."

49
00:03:06,415 --> 00:03:12,625
and yeah, that Colgan 3407 crash
led to both the ATP CTP rule and the

50
00:03:12,625 --> 00:03:17,315
1500-hour rule that so many people
are, not enjoying these days, let's

51
00:03:17,509 --> 00:03:18,499
Lamenting?

52
00:03:18,719 --> 00:03:19,189
Yes

53
00:03:20,475 --> 00:03:21,475
yeah, but you know what?

54
00:03:21,485 --> 00:03:27,795
That 1500-hour rule moved the bar
enough on, just the amount of effort

55
00:03:27,795 --> 00:03:32,915
and money it takes for entry into
the industry that it completely

56
00:03:32,945 --> 00:03:35,815
changed compensation in the industry.

57
00:03:38,225 --> 00:03:43,495
I-- when I first got my commercial pilot
certificate, the entry into the airline

58
00:03:43,505 --> 00:03:49,445
world was you go fly a Beech 1900 for
Great Lakes Airlines for $19 an hour,

59
00:03:50,155 --> 00:03:53,685
and that's a flight hour, and you're
limited to a thousand of those in a year.

60
00:03:53,715 --> 00:04:00,875
So obviously the money was awful and,
pilots were delivering pizzas on the

61
00:04:00,875 --> 00:04:02,985
side when they were at home and such, and

62
00:04:03,405 --> 00:04:03,825
Yeah

63
00:04:03,895 --> 00:04:05,715
we want the best people in the seat.

64
00:04:05,835 --> 00:04:10,155
and even though that means that you
may have to slog it out in the right

65
00:04:10,155 --> 00:04:15,185
seat of a 172 bopping around the
pattern a little more or, there's a

66
00:04:15,185 --> 00:04:17,155
lot of other ways to get to 1500 hours.

67
00:04:17,155 --> 00:04:20,115
I'm not even a CFI, lots
of ways to skin that cat.

68
00:04:20,125 --> 00:04:25,795
But, because of that, it really changed
the face of compensation in the industry.

69
00:04:25,795 --> 00:04:31,025
And so that's why when you make it to
the right seat at Envoy now, you actually

70
00:04:31,035 --> 00:04:36,555
make pretty good money, instead of
the poverty wages that used to happen.

71
00:04:36,605 --> 00:04:37,995
Yeah, it's actually those

72
00:04:38,051 --> 00:04:40,141
made the industry better in other ways too

73
00:04:40,859 --> 00:04:44,779
Yeah, those, those wages when I was
a young buck is one of the things

74
00:04:44,779 --> 00:04:49,239
that dissuaded me from a career
I, I thought I would really love,

75
00:04:49,939 --> 00:04:51,309
you know, being an airline pilot.

76
00:04:51,719 --> 00:04:55,959
but I was in my early 20s and going,
"Man, there's a lot of other ways to

77
00:04:55,959 --> 00:05:00,089
make money. That seems like a long
slog." So there's probably a lot more

78
00:05:00,089 --> 00:05:04,339
people like me who would have loved it
and maybe even been a little bit good at

79
00:05:04,339 --> 00:05:09,789
it, but, you know, that kinda dissuaded
us, so now we see kind of an influx.

80
00:05:09,843 --> 00:05:11,713
professionals in the industry now

81
00:05:12,239 --> 00:05:13,029
That is true.

82
00:05:13,719 --> 00:05:14,469
That is true.

83
00:05:15,319 --> 00:05:18,839
But yeah, it has, it has changed
a lot of things, that, that Colgan

84
00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:23,409
Air tra- crash, as tragic as it was,
hopefully good things come out of it.

85
00:05:23,429 --> 00:05:28,569
So we're gonna learn kind of the reality
of this today, right, a little bit.

86
00:05:28,579 --> 00:05:34,709
We're gonna get to tag along with
you and see what way beyond the,

87
00:05:34,749 --> 00:05:40,019
at least the private checkride
is, with, with the ATP, CTP.

88
00:05:40,699 --> 00:05:44,289
So you've already kinda talked
about how, you know, it's, it kinda

89
00:05:44,289 --> 00:05:46,169
went along with the 1,500 hours.

90
00:05:46,169 --> 00:05:52,359
That means, you know, people going into
ATP, CTP are a lot more experienced

91
00:05:52,369 --> 00:06:01,369
flying than, in the past before 2007,
2008, you know, once they were already

92
00:06:01,369 --> 00:06:02,809
flying for the airlines, right?

93
00:06:03,319 --> 00:06:05,999
So, does, does that make a
big difference, do you think?

94
00:06:08,369 --> 00:06:12,499
I've heard a lot of people say, "Do
you have 1,500 hours or do you have

95
00:06:12,499 --> 00:06:17,739
one hour 1,500 times?" obviously you
learn a lot more when you're new at

96
00:06:17,739 --> 00:06:20,089
something than you do down the road.

97
00:06:20,479 --> 00:06:25,359
so that's why there's some debate about
whether that 1,500-hour rule really is

98
00:06:25,379 --> 00:06:29,669
making that big of a difference because
is another thousand times around the

99
00:06:29,669 --> 00:06:34,089
pattern in that 172 really going to make
the difference between a good pilot and a

100
00:06:34,089 --> 00:06:36,189
bad pilot when it comes to flying a jet?

101
00:06:37,629 --> 00:06:42,149
really, that's what the ATP CTP
course is about, is bridging the

102
00:06:42,149 --> 00:06:47,459
gap from the right seat of a 172
to the right seat of a jet, and

103
00:06:47,519 --> 00:06:47,529
Hmm

104
00:06:47,679 --> 00:06:52,059
is a completely different
experience flying a jet than

105
00:06:52,059 --> 00:06:53,619
it is flying a single piston

106
00:06:54,825 --> 00:06:55,065
Hmm.

107
00:06:56,325 --> 00:06:57,475
Yeah, that's a good way to put it.

108
00:06:57,475 --> 00:07:02,405
It's kind of y- you go through levels
of professionalism through your

109
00:07:02,405 --> 00:07:06,965
career, and, going from, like you
said, the right seat of a 172 to the

110
00:07:06,965 --> 00:07:08,435
right seat of a jet is a big leap.

111
00:07:08,885 --> 00:07:11,925
So there probably needs to be
some, some good training there

112
00:07:13,308 --> 00:07:13,878
Definitely

113
00:07:15,259 --> 00:07:20,799
So a lot of people may not
even know what ATP/CTP is.

114
00:07:20,799 --> 00:07:22,529
Do you wanna explain it a little bit?

115
00:07:23,951 --> 00:07:29,581
So it is that bridge from the single
engine piston world to the jet world.

116
00:07:29,641 --> 00:07:32,021
that's what it was always intended to be.

117
00:07:32,471 --> 00:07:37,021
even though Congress forced the
extra training on us, it was the

118
00:07:37,021 --> 00:07:40,981
FAA that kind of decided what
really should go into that training.

119
00:07:42,551 --> 00:07:49,871
there are a number of what you might
call landmark accidents, that the causes

120
00:07:49,881 --> 00:07:51,861
of them all went into this course.

121
00:07:52,271 --> 00:07:55,701
obviously at this point, you
could call Colgan 3407 a landmark

122
00:07:55,701 --> 00:08:00,011
accident just because of how
much it changed the industry.

123
00:08:01,381 --> 00:08:05,421
some other ones that are looked
at least in the course I took, Air

124
00:08:05,421 --> 00:08:10,541
France 447, which was the one that was
flying from South America to Paris and

125
00:08:11,491 --> 00:08:15,941
stalled at a high altitude and remained
stalled all the way into the ocean.

126
00:08:16,561 --> 00:08:21,791
so aerodynamics it-- at high
altitudes and stall recoveries at high

127
00:08:21,791 --> 00:08:23,651
altitudes are covered in the course.

128
00:08:24,171 --> 00:08:28,921
but there's a whole lot of stuff
around professionalism, which was

129
00:08:29,221 --> 00:08:33,941
somewhat lacking in that cockpit as
well as in some other, accidents.

130
00:08:34,271 --> 00:08:37,661
I don't have the flight number in front
of me right now, but there was a…

131
00:08:39,851 --> 00:08:44,521
I honestly forget which regional it was,
but it was, Northwest Airlink, where it

132
00:08:44,521 --> 00:08:51,291
was just a deadhead flight, there were
two young pilots who, made a lot of

133
00:08:51,301 --> 00:08:56,271
bad decisions and had an unprofessional
environment in the cockpit, managed to

134
00:08:56,271 --> 00:09:00,821
get both engines to flame out on the jet
that they were flying and crashed it.

135
00:09:01,831 --> 00:09:06,151
all of those different accidents that
the FAA looked at and said, "Hey,

136
00:09:06,151 --> 00:09:10,041
we can do better and we need to do
better", are covered in the course.

137
00:09:13,405 --> 00:09:19,145
So we can kinda go through, some of the
subject matter, and I think we will here.

138
00:09:19,185 --> 00:09:21,395
but I'm-- I'll let you take
the lead on where we go

139
00:09:21,513 --> 00:09:22,453
Sure, sure.

140
00:09:22,753 --> 00:09:25,613
Well, I just wanna get a couple
of personal, things out of the way

141
00:09:25,623 --> 00:09:27,463
that, you know, worked out for you.

142
00:09:27,763 --> 00:09:31,663
What did your total time and ratings
look like when you went in so our

143
00:09:31,673 --> 00:09:36,363
l- listeners can kinda get an idea
of where you were at in your career?

144
00:09:37,843 --> 00:09:42,153
I looked very different from the rest
of the people in the course because,

145
00:09:42,163 --> 00:09:48,723
again, most of them, with maybe three
exceptions were, that person who's

146
00:09:48,743 --> 00:09:52,143
been sitting in the right seat of
a 172 teaching people how to fly.

147
00:09:53,593 --> 00:09:57,103
and, they're getting to that point
where they're close to 1,500 hours

148
00:09:57,103 --> 00:10:00,873
and they want to be able to take that
ATP written and get that out of the

149
00:10:00,873 --> 00:10:05,623
way and put it on their resume so that
they can hopefully get hired by an

150
00:10:05,633 --> 00:10:12,030
airline, Yeah, I had almost 3,000 hours,
several hundred hours of turbine time

151
00:10:12,050 --> 00:10:18,230
experience as a 135 captain, but it was
all in single engine turboprops, so I

152
00:10:18,230 --> 00:10:24,370
did not have the multi-engine ATP, so
I probably got some different things

153
00:10:24,370 --> 00:10:28,240
out of the course than some other
people did, and I nodded my head a lot.

154
00:10:29,710 --> 00:10:29,970
I was

155
00:10:30,270 --> 00:10:30,630
Yeah

156
00:10:30,870 --> 00:10:36,150
at that former one thirty-five that I
was at, so I have, seen a lot of stuff

157
00:10:36,150 --> 00:10:39,690
about a lot of these accidents and
written things about them and tried

158
00:10:39,690 --> 00:10:44,170
to take the lessons from them and,
communicate them to pilots myself before.

159
00:10:44,250 --> 00:10:47,220
definitely was a different
experience for me than it was for

160
00:10:47,220 --> 00:10:48,620
some of the other people in there.

161
00:10:49,148 --> 00:10:49,538
Okay.

162
00:10:50,228 --> 00:10:52,978
Yeah, that's interesting 'cause you
come in with a … Like you said,

163
00:10:52,978 --> 00:10:55,158
you're not a, you're not a CFI.

164
00:10:55,158 --> 00:10:58,218
You came in with a lot of different
experience, a lot of real-world

165
00:10:58,218 --> 00:11:01,538
experience and, and a lot of
professional flying experience.

166
00:11:02,008 --> 00:11:08,528
So with that in mind, do you, do you think
it was more or less rigorous than you

167
00:11:08,528 --> 00:11:10,128
expected or kind of what you expected?

168
00:11:11,888 --> 00:11:17,098
I have heard from some people that
their experience with that course

169
00:11:17,118 --> 00:11:21,228
was, that it was taught by somebody
who didn't really know anything and

170
00:11:21,228 --> 00:11:25,408
just played them a bunch of YouTube
videos, which is really unfortunate.

171
00:11:25,522 --> 00:11:26,542
unfortunate, yeah

172
00:11:26,558 --> 00:11:31,788
experience was the guy that, the guy
that taught the ground portion of my

173
00:11:31,788 --> 00:11:37,138
ATP/CTP course was a retired American
captain, and he did a great job.

174
00:11:38,648 --> 00:11:44,348
and he gave some of the backstory on some
of the accidents that involved American

175
00:11:44,758 --> 00:11:47,608
that don't make it into the NTSB report.

176
00:11:47,638 --> 00:11:51,828
there was one in particular that
was a weather-related crash where

177
00:11:52,078 --> 00:11:55,838
all these other flights were getting
canceled, and this guy apparently

178
00:11:55,838 --> 00:11:59,488
had a mistress at the destination
that they were going to that night,

179
00:11:59,680 --> 00:12:00,540
Oh my goodness

180
00:12:01,028 --> 00:12:05,578
went around looking for an airplane
at a gate that was flyable and then,

181
00:12:07,008 --> 00:12:10,548
up dispatch and said, "Hey, I found
an airplane here and I wanna go."

182
00:12:11,858 --> 00:12:16,078
and unfortunately, that led to his
death as well as several others,

183
00:12:16,508 --> 00:12:18,218
when they crashed at the destination.

184
00:12:18,328 --> 00:12:18,618
Hmm.

185
00:12:19,246 --> 00:12:23,046
lot of interesting backstories there,
though, and, part of what you get from

186
00:12:23,046 --> 00:12:28,596
that is just that, what was this person's
decision-making mentality that day?

187
00:12:29,186 --> 00:12:33,366
'cause that really affects, the
outcome of some of these things.

188
00:12:33,736 --> 00:12:38,246
your decision-making is really what
makes you a good or a bad pilot.

189
00:12:39,026 --> 00:12:43,546
so it's always important to keep
that in mind and make sure you're

190
00:12:43,546 --> 00:12:46,266
in the right frame of mind when
you're making those decisions.

191
00:12:46,266 --> 00:12:50,716
So I really felt like I got a lot
of good value out of that course,

192
00:12:51,076 --> 00:12:52,736
hearing some of that extra stuff.

193
00:12:52,776 --> 00:12:56,786
But, yeah, I thought he
did a really great job.

194
00:12:57,216 --> 00:12:57,896
that sounds good.

195
00:12:57,896 --> 00:13:00,496
It sounds like it was probably a
pretty good experience for you.

196
00:13:00,926 --> 00:13:03,416
So w- what study materials did you use?

197
00:13:03,416 --> 00:13:10,236
Did you have a sense for how some of the
approved programs for ATP/CTP differ?

198
00:13:13,039 --> 00:13:15,669
Well, there really weren't
any study materials.

199
00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:19,109
That's the, kind of the whole
thing with this ATP/CTP.

200
00:13:19,119 --> 00:13:22,549
There's, it's just ground and sim.

201
00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:25,999
There is no checkride or
any of that kind of stuff.

202
00:13:25,999 --> 00:13:31,129
And so, it was actually kind of nice to
have a training experience where you can

203
00:13:31,129 --> 00:13:37,439
just kind of go into it with an open mind
and, and just sit back and soak it in.

204
00:13:37,669 --> 00:13:41,589
Got a lot of good value out of
it, but didn't really have to put

205
00:13:41,589 --> 00:13:43,309
a ton into it before it started

206
00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:45,000
All right, excellent.

207
00:13:45,010 --> 00:13:47,500
Well, was there anything that
surprised you about the content?

208
00:13:50,289 --> 00:13:54,589
Not a lot, mostly because like I
said, I've, I've been in aviation

209
00:13:54,589 --> 00:14:00,429
safety before and I've, I've been
around flying for over 20 years now.

210
00:14:00,429 --> 00:14:04,819
And so, you know, I remember a lot
of these crashes when they happened.

211
00:14:05,479 --> 00:14:05,729
Right

212
00:14:05,895 --> 00:14:11,545
in fact, I knew a guy who was flying
for Colgan at the time 3407 crashed.

213
00:14:12,185 --> 00:14:15,915
you know, and I, I
remember Air France 447.

214
00:14:16,735 --> 00:14:19,635
I have a lot of thoughts
on that particular crash.

215
00:14:20,075 --> 00:14:25,475
But, so yeah, I was, I was aware of almost
all of the stuff in the course already.

216
00:14:25,945 --> 00:14:30,405
but, you know, hearing it from the
perspective of a guy who's been an airline

217
00:14:30,405 --> 00:14:36,055
captain for 40 years, you know, that
was, that was really, a good experience

218
00:14:36,981 --> 00:14:38,101
Hmm.

219
00:14:38,101 --> 00:14:38,481
All right.

220
00:14:39,171 --> 00:14:39,561
So

221
00:14:41,781 --> 00:14:45,731
Did you choose the provider who,
who did the class, or was that

222
00:14:45,731 --> 00:14:48,071
chosen for you by your employer?

223
00:14:48,111 --> 00:14:49,201
Or how, how did that work?

224
00:14:50,303 --> 00:14:54,023
No, I actually did this class
before I got my current job.

225
00:14:54,193 --> 00:14:59,073
you know, the hiring market here in
the last couple of years, uh, ever

226
00:14:59,073 --> 00:15:05,593
since the door plug blew out of the
Alaska Airlines 737 has not been great.

227
00:15:05,623 --> 00:15:10,943
And so anything you can do to make
yourself look better is, is a good thing.

228
00:15:10,943 --> 00:15:15,103
And so I just kind of did this
one on my own dime, just to say,

229
00:15:15,103 --> 00:15:16,783
"Yeah, I checked that box already."

230
00:15:17,659 --> 00:15:21,759
Well, that's actually good for
us for, for this discussion.

231
00:15:21,849 --> 00:15:23,489
How did you choose the provider?

232
00:15:24,329 --> 00:15:25,789
what process did you go through?

233
00:15:25,799 --> 00:15:26,699
Was it word of mouth?

234
00:15:26,729 --> 00:15:28,229
Did you do some research?

235
00:15:28,437 --> 00:15:32,437
Well, I actually called up our
old buddy Steve Tupper, 'cause I

236
00:15:32,437 --> 00:15:36,637
knew he had done it, and, asked
him what his experience was like.

237
00:15:36,637 --> 00:15:40,207
And I looked at, a couple of
other providers, and they were

238
00:15:40,217 --> 00:15:41,807
kind of all the same price.

239
00:15:41,837 --> 00:15:45,197
They were all, like, right at $4,000.

240
00:15:45,281 --> 00:15:45,291
Mm-hmm.

241
00:15:47,027 --> 00:15:51,937
and it just, just so happened I could
get in with this one the quickest.

242
00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:57,280
And were you pretty familiar
with ATP/CTP before going in?

243
00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:01,950
I know you were familiar with the
concepts, but had you really heard a lot

244
00:16:01,950 --> 00:16:06,690
about how these programs, run, or did you
kinda have to learn it as you went along?

245
00:16:07,233 --> 00:16:11,573
I've, I've talked to a couple people
about it and, you know, like I said,

246
00:16:11,573 --> 00:16:15,293
I had heard from some people that it
was just, you know, being fed some

247
00:16:15,293 --> 00:16:20,003
YouTube videos in a classroom and
they were pretty disappointed with it.

248
00:16:20,103 --> 00:16:24,813
but, you know, that wasn't my
experience, which I'm, I'm very glad for.

249
00:16:25,726 --> 00:16:28,346
Yeah, choosing the provider
is really important, isn't it?

250
00:16:30,049 --> 00:16:30,359
Yeah.

251
00:16:30,359 --> 00:16:36,049
Well, and honestly, I think I got lucky
because I may have, may have actually

252
00:16:36,049 --> 00:16:40,109
had the same provider as some of the
people who didn't have a good experience.

253
00:16:40,459 --> 00:16:44,369
So it, it may have just been the,
the luck of the draw that I got the

254
00:16:44,369 --> 00:16:47,969
good instructor as opposed to the
one who maybe wasn't even a pilot.

255
00:16:48,699 --> 00:16:49,009
Hmm.

256
00:16:50,689 --> 00:16:51,349
Interesting.

257
00:16:51,369 --> 00:16:57,619
Well, I'm gonna ask you to dive into,
kind of the content the program a little

258
00:16:57,619 --> 00:16:59,089
bit, so you can be ready for that.

259
00:16:59,089 --> 00:17:05,539
But before we do that, I, I wanted to
get a sense from you how your fellow

260
00:17:05,539 --> 00:17:11,069
classmates, the other pilots, did you
find that they were generally taking

261
00:17:11,069 --> 00:17:15,559
it really seriously, being really
professional, or, was it kind of a

262
00:17:15,569 --> 00:17:17,929
checkbox item for, for a lot of them?

263
00:17:19,657 --> 00:17:23,967
I think, you know, it seemed like
everybody in, in my class was,

264
00:17:23,987 --> 00:17:27,987
was really into it and paying
attention, for the most part.

265
00:17:28,047 --> 00:17:32,837
even though I-- and this is one of the
other reasons I went with this particular

266
00:17:32,837 --> 00:17:39,147
provider, I was in a remote course, so the
ground for mine, I was able to be at home.

267
00:17:39,967 --> 00:17:40,997
Oh, interesting.

268
00:17:41,407 --> 00:17:43,037
and everyone else was as well.

269
00:17:43,307 --> 00:17:48,867
Now, part of that is that they
actually have someone watching you.

270
00:17:48,867 --> 00:17:52,487
You have to have your camera turned
on, and they have, in addition to the

271
00:17:52,487 --> 00:17:58,187
instructor, they have a monitor whose
entire job is to sit there and watch

272
00:17:58,197 --> 00:18:01,187
everybody's video feed, and if it
looks like you're not paying attention,

273
00:18:01,597 --> 00:18:03,047
they'll, they're gonna squawk at you.

274
00:18:03,969 --> 00:18:05,089
Hmm, interesting.

275
00:18:05,207 --> 00:18:09,767
in fact, I was, I was warned about that in
advance because, like some other people,

276
00:18:09,767 --> 00:18:12,657
I have several monitors on my home setup.

277
00:18:13,277 --> 00:18:14,067
And so,

278
00:18:14,467 --> 00:18:14,637
You

279
00:18:14,797 --> 00:18:18,457
you know, I'm sitting here, I'm sitting
here looking at you on my laptop,

280
00:18:18,467 --> 00:18:22,717
but, you know, over here is my notes
and over here is, you know, a web

281
00:18:22,727 --> 00:18:24,437
browser and all that kind of stuff.

282
00:18:24,537 --> 00:18:24,937
Yeah.

283
00:18:25,007 --> 00:18:25,927
Yeah, that makes sense.

284
00:18:27,107 --> 00:18:27,377
All right.

285
00:18:27,377 --> 00:18:31,967
Well, Kent, if you don't mind, why
don't you take us through the content

286
00:18:32,227 --> 00:18:34,307
of the course, what, what it's like?

287
00:18:34,647 --> 00:18:38,767
let's start with the regulatory
portions, what's required to be in

288
00:18:38,767 --> 00:18:43,697
there, and then we'll kind of finish
up with your experience, what you

289
00:18:43,697 --> 00:18:47,997
talked about, what you learned, you
know, the different experiences with

290
00:18:47,997 --> 00:18:50,647
the sim, because I believe there's
a sim component for this, right?

291
00:18:51,812 --> 00:18:52,412
There is

292
00:18:53,027 --> 00:18:53,327
yeah.

293
00:18:53,327 --> 00:18:55,027
So let, let's start with the regulatory.

294
00:18:55,027 --> 00:18:57,747
Like, what is required
to be part of this class?

295
00:18:59,748 --> 00:19:05,678
So it's 30 hours of classroom and 10 hours
in the sim is the minimum requirement.

296
00:19:06,388 --> 00:19:12,188
The classroom is split up into eight
hours of aerodynamics, including

297
00:19:12,208 --> 00:19:18,028
high-altitude aerodynamics, two
hours of meteorology and weather

298
00:19:18,038 --> 00:19:21,158
detection systems, aka onboard radar,

299
00:19:23,208 --> 00:19:28,518
14 hours of air carrier operations, which
is split into a bunch of things that I

300
00:19:28,518 --> 00:19:33,708
can go through here in a sec, and then
six hours of leadership, professional

301
00:19:33,708 --> 00:19:36,098
development, CRM, and safety culture.

302
00:19:37,528 --> 00:19:43,278
That 14 hours of air carrier operations
covers physiology, communications,

303
00:19:43,998 --> 00:19:49,578
checklist philosophy, operational
control, minimum equipment list and CDL.

304
00:19:51,758 --> 00:19:58,718
I'm blanking on the configuration
deviation list, ground operations, turbine

305
00:19:58,718 --> 00:20:05,588
engines, transport category performance,
and then automation, navigation,

306
00:20:05,588 --> 00:20:07,208
and flight path warning systems.

307
00:20:08,988 --> 00:20:16,398
So all stuff that's more geared toward
high-altitude operations, multi-crew

308
00:20:16,398 --> 00:20:23,068
operations, turbine operations, the air
carrier operations, getting into parts

309
00:20:23,368 --> 00:20:31,298
121, 135, 125, all of those different
things that are very different than

310
00:20:31,298 --> 00:20:35,808
your single-engine piston operations
that most people are coming from.

311
00:20:36,566 --> 00:20:36,816
Cool.

312
00:20:36,866 --> 00:20:37,286
All right.

313
00:20:37,596 --> 00:20:41,886
So from a regulatory standpoint,
which is th- this is found in

314
00:20:41,886 --> 00:20:46,836
61-156, I believe, those are the
things that have to be covered.

315
00:20:48,276 --> 00:20:50,596
take us through a little bit of that.

316
00:20:50,616 --> 00:20:51,956
What was it like for you?

317
00:20:51,956 --> 00:20:55,326
What were some of the aha moments
and, and things like that?

318
00:20:58,057 --> 00:21:02,237
Well, again, I already had experience
with some of this stuff, just because

319
00:21:02,237 --> 00:21:04,717
I had previous 135 experience.

320
00:21:04,757 --> 00:21:08,017
But, You know, I'll, I'll kind of
just start at the top here and,

321
00:21:08,017 --> 00:21:09,797
and throw a few things out there.

322
00:21:09,807 --> 00:21:13,387
you know, aerodynamics and
high-altitude operations.

323
00:21:13,877 --> 00:21:17,177
things are different when you're way
up there in the, the really thin air.

324
00:21:17,597 --> 00:21:22,477
if you think about your minimum speed,
where you're gonna stall, versus your

325
00:21:22,477 --> 00:21:26,287
maximum speed, where you're gonna
hit, you know, in a piston, it's VNE.

326
00:21:26,977 --> 00:21:33,187
in a turbine aircraft, you'd usually have
a, a VMO and an MMO, maximum operating.

327
00:21:33,797 --> 00:21:39,527
as you climb, that minimum speed
is going to be faster and faster.

328
00:21:39,967 --> 00:21:44,787
really, it's gonna be roughly the same
indicated air speed, but of course,

329
00:21:45,157 --> 00:21:49,287
as you climb, you are going faster
for the same indicated air speed

330
00:21:49,287 --> 00:21:51,347
because the air is getting thinner.

331
00:21:52,327 --> 00:21:56,017
But the other thing that's happening
is at the other end, you know, so your,

332
00:21:56,017 --> 00:22:00,877
your minimum speed's going like this,
your maximum speed is coming down.

333
00:22:02,547 --> 00:22:08,657
And so you get into a situation, called
coffin corner, where in certain aircraft

334
00:22:08,677 --> 00:22:15,037
types, there's only maybe 10 knots in
between your maximum speed and your

335
00:22:15,037 --> 00:22:17,707
minimum speed when you get high enough.

336
00:22:18,197 --> 00:22:22,087
I think that applies to some of
the Lears and probably the Citation

337
00:22:22,107 --> 00:22:26,297
X that's, you know, some of these
planes are certified up to 51,000

338
00:22:26,297 --> 00:22:31,187
feet, and so when you get really high
like that, things are very different.

339
00:22:31,427 --> 00:22:32,387
so that's,

340
00:22:32,490 --> 00:22:32,700
so

341
00:22:32,727 --> 00:22:34,317
that's one thing that they talk about

342
00:22:34,930 --> 00:22:37,610
explain aerodynamically, this
is where we get to geek out.

343
00:22:37,980 --> 00:22:43,690
Explain aerodynamically, where, what
the dangers are there, you know,

344
00:22:43,690 --> 00:22:45,320
in Coffin's Corner, so to speak

345
00:22:46,741 --> 00:22:50,571
Well, if you, if you got all the
way to the altitude where those

346
00:22:50,591 --> 00:22:55,451
meet, you are simultaneously at,
you know, your maximum speed and

347
00:22:55,451 --> 00:22:56,911
your stall speed at the same time.

348
00:22:57,751 --> 00:23:01,661
which obviously you can't really get
all the way to the corner there, but,

349
00:23:02,150 --> 00:23:02,530
Mm-hmm.

350
00:23:02,791 --> 00:23:08,871
have an ever-decreasing margin, for
speed on either side of where you are.

351
00:23:09,551 --> 00:23:09,941
and,

352
00:23:09,999 --> 00:23:10,409
and that

353
00:23:10,481 --> 00:23:14,361
you know, a student pilot
practices stalls all the time.

354
00:23:14,691 --> 00:23:17,271
What's different about stalls
at those high altitudes?

355
00:23:17,521 --> 00:23:19,871
That's kind of that danger, area, right?

356
00:23:21,349 --> 00:23:21,789
Yeah.

357
00:23:21,789 --> 00:23:24,459
Well, one of those things, that's
one of the things that they covered

358
00:23:24,459 --> 00:23:30,939
in the sim was high-altitude stalls,
because it's not like it just kinda,

359
00:23:31,069 --> 00:23:32,919
you know, pitches over on you.

360
00:23:32,919 --> 00:23:36,419
It's, it's gonna start to buffet first.

361
00:23:37,019 --> 00:23:40,459
and one of the points that they
were really trying to make was that,

362
00:23:40,729 --> 00:23:45,419
yeah, you may be in a transport
category jet with tons and tons of

363
00:23:45,429 --> 00:23:51,909
thrust at takeoff, but really a jet
engine is a normally aspirated engine

364
00:23:53,937 --> 00:23:58,987
It is a turbine, but it is
a normally aspirated engine.

365
00:23:58,987 --> 00:24:01,617
The higher you climb, the
less air is going into it

366
00:24:02,405 --> 00:24:03,455
yeah, yeah,

367
00:24:03,855 --> 00:24:09,085
And so you don't necessarily
have as much excess thrust up

368
00:24:09,085 --> 00:24:11,055
at altitude as you do down low.

369
00:24:11,475 --> 00:24:15,435
and so one of the things that they
demonstrated with us in the sim was that

370
00:24:15,435 --> 00:24:21,355
you cannot power out of a stall even
with a couple of big jet engines on you.

371
00:24:21,835 --> 00:24:24,025
and it-- that was, that was an eye-opener.

372
00:24:24,055 --> 00:24:28,125
They basically had us get it to
the first indication of a stall

373
00:24:28,435 --> 00:24:31,495
at thirty-five thousand feet and
then try and power out of it.

374
00:24:32,275 --> 00:24:37,955
And they timed it, and it took
two full minutes to recover

375
00:24:37,955 --> 00:24:42,205
from the stall by trying to hold
altitude and power out of it.

376
00:24:42,845 --> 00:24:46,735
and so the point there was
you got to get that nose down.

377
00:24:47,335 --> 00:24:52,045
now, you don't want to be going
negative G on a transport category jet.

378
00:24:52,615 --> 00:24:55,485
all kinds of bad things can happen,
you know, not the least of which

379
00:24:55,505 --> 00:24:58,395
would be you might be unporting
your fuel and then causing your

380
00:24:58,395 --> 00:25:02,485
engines to quit too, which, you know,
that's going to be a really bad day.

381
00:25:02,925 --> 00:25:09,475
and so your recovery is to drop a
wing and get the nose down quickly

382
00:25:09,475 --> 00:25:12,075
that way without causing negative G.

383
00:25:12,865 --> 00:25:18,985
And then, I mean, you get the nose quite a
bit down, like twenty degrees down, so you

384
00:25:18,985 --> 00:25:21,175
don't see any blue at all in the window.

385
00:25:21,325 --> 00:25:27,045
And then you get that airspeed back up
first, and then you start to recover.

386
00:25:27,045 --> 00:25:33,035
And that recovery, when you're that high,
I mean, I think we ate up six or eight

387
00:25:33,035 --> 00:25:35,565
thousand feet of altitude in the recovery.

388
00:25:36,335 --> 00:25:41,225
Now, that sounds like a lot, and it
is a lot when you're in a normally

389
00:25:41,225 --> 00:25:45,165
aspirated piston, and you're at three
thousand, four thousand feet AGL

390
00:25:45,175 --> 00:25:47,385
maybe, and maybe not even that much.

391
00:25:47,825 --> 00:25:52,015
and that's where we all learned stalls,
and that's where we all practice stalls.

392
00:25:52,775 --> 00:25:58,435
And so, you know, we're kind of thinking,
"Okay, I'm going to real briefly get

393
00:25:58,435 --> 00:26:02,935
the nose down, you know, relax that
back pressure, lower the angle of

394
00:26:02,935 --> 00:26:06,525
attack, and the wing's going to start
flying again right away, and then I

395
00:26:06,525 --> 00:26:10,935
need to get that nose back up, not too
fast to cause a secondary stall, but

396
00:26:10,935 --> 00:26:14,385
I need to get that nose back up and
climb away from the ground because,

397
00:26:14,705 --> 00:26:16,295
hey, the ground is right there," right?

398
00:26:17,025 --> 00:26:20,715
But when you're at thirty-five
thousand feet, it doesn't matter

399
00:26:20,715 --> 00:26:24,515
if you lose eight thousand feet in
the recovery because you're still--

400
00:26:24,685 --> 00:26:28,225
Well, I guess that, that would get
you down to about Everest altitude.

401
00:26:28,855 --> 00:26:29,205
You know?

402
00:26:29,215 --> 00:26:35,135
So the highest point of land in
the entire world is twenty-seven

403
00:26:35,135 --> 00:26:37,525
thousand twenty-eight feet,
if I remember correctly.

404
00:26:37,975 --> 00:26:44,045
and so, yeah, you have thousands of
feet in which to recover, so use it.

405
00:26:44,855 --> 00:26:49,145
and it's, it's just a, it's a very
different maneuver than the one

406
00:26:49,145 --> 00:26:50,885
that we all learned and practiced.

407
00:26:51,389 --> 00:26:58,309
and because of the, the fact that both,
Colgan 3407 and Air France 447 that we've

408
00:26:58,309 --> 00:27:03,299
already talked about, you know, stalls
were part of both of those accidents.

409
00:27:03,729 --> 00:27:09,889
and so stall awareness and recovery
is, a big part of what they wanted

410
00:27:09,889 --> 00:27:11,859
to go into this ATP CTP course

411
00:27:12,672 --> 00:27:13,472
Yeah.

412
00:27:14,312 --> 00:27:14,833
Cool stuff.

413
00:27:15,593 --> 00:27:16,752
See, we get to geek out

414
00:27:18,503 --> 00:27:18,923
Yeah.

415
00:27:20,601 --> 00:27:21,051
Awesome.

416
00:27:21,731 --> 00:27:22,401
All right.

417
00:27:22,891 --> 00:27:26,471
so w- what other kinds of things
did you, did you go over in that,

418
00:27:26,471 --> 00:27:29,361
you know, those mandatory topics
that you thought was interesting?

419
00:27:29,689 --> 00:27:32,099
I could talk a little
bit about weather radar.

420
00:27:32,149 --> 00:27:36,759
we did have weather radar on the TBMs
that I was flying before, but, it was

421
00:27:36,759 --> 00:27:42,969
very nice, you know, new generation
Garmin's latest and greatest fun toys.

422
00:27:44,639 --> 00:27:48,979
and, you know, most airplanes now
have relatively modern radars.

423
00:27:48,989 --> 00:27:53,589
Some are more automated than the
others, but, You know, before you've

424
00:27:53,619 --> 00:27:58,169
actually operated an onboard radar,
it kind of sounds like, "Oh, this

425
00:27:58,169 --> 00:28:00,879
will be the greatest thing ever, and
it will tell me everything I need to

426
00:28:00,879 --> 00:28:04,069
know, and it won't have any of the
weaknesses of NEXRAD and all that."

427
00:28:04,325 --> 00:28:07,075
I can really poke my way
through these storms, right?

428
00:28:07,561 --> 00:28:08,731
Yeah, not so much.

429
00:28:08,821 --> 00:28:15,581
you know, they both, Nextrad
data link radar and onboard

430
00:28:15,581 --> 00:28:20,311
weather radar have a place, and I
actually really like having both.

431
00:28:20,831 --> 00:28:24,011
you know, they each have their own
weaknesses, but when you have both,

432
00:28:24,031 --> 00:28:30,101
you can kind of use them to mitigate
the weaknesses of the other one.

433
00:28:30,601 --> 00:28:35,471
you know, we of course have the luxury
now of having Nextrad in our cockpits

434
00:28:35,491 --> 00:28:42,281
in normally aspirated piston aircraft,
which is just a, a massive increase

435
00:28:42,291 --> 00:28:47,531
in safety and dispatchability, for
small airplanes since I started flying.

436
00:28:47,961 --> 00:28:52,681
you know, before we had ADSB and XM
Weather and that sort of thing available

437
00:28:52,681 --> 00:28:58,101
in the cockpit, I remember taking
a trip where I called Flight Watch.

438
00:28:58,501 --> 00:28:59,881
If you remember Flight Watch.

439
00:28:59,881 --> 00:29:06,181
Doesn't exist anymore, but it was a, you
know, a flight service, provided service.

440
00:29:06,751 --> 00:29:11,031
and you called in on this frequency,
and you'd be listening through a VOR,

441
00:29:11,201 --> 00:29:16,381
and a guy in a room somewhere would
be telling you that there's an area

442
00:29:16,381 --> 00:29:20,871
of thunderstorms that's, you know,
100 miles wide, and it's centered 30

443
00:29:20,871 --> 00:29:25,431
miles north of some VOR you've never
heard of and have no idea where it is.

444
00:29:25,431 --> 00:29:29,621
And it was just not the most
useful thing in the world.

445
00:29:30,261 --> 00:29:33,121
maybe better than nothing,
but only marginally.

446
00:29:33,141 --> 00:29:38,431
so having the visualization and really
knowing where that is relative to

447
00:29:38,431 --> 00:29:43,411
you is just a, a huge increase in
capability for small airplanes, and

448
00:29:43,411 --> 00:29:44,991
I use it all the time in my Mooney.

449
00:29:45,491 --> 00:29:48,201
however, it has weaknesses, right?

450
00:29:48,951 --> 00:29:55,741
if you get a picture that says it's,
you know, from right now, it's already

451
00:29:55,791 --> 00:30:01,851
about 10 minutes old because the radar
has to sweep all the different altitudes,

452
00:30:02,241 --> 00:30:06,451
and then it puts all those pictures
together, sends it out, gotta go up to

453
00:30:06,451 --> 00:30:08,551
satellites and back down potentially.

454
00:30:08,961 --> 00:30:12,711
but it takes a while to put the
picture together and transmit it,

455
00:30:12,721 --> 00:30:16,651
and that time that you see on it, is
the time that it was transmitted, not

456
00:30:16,651 --> 00:30:18,741
the time that it started being built.

457
00:30:18,751 --> 00:30:25,331
So even if it says you have a brand-new
picture, it's still up to 10 minutes old.

458
00:30:25,831 --> 00:30:30,051
and then on top of that, it
sometimes takes five or 10 additional

459
00:30:30,051 --> 00:30:32,101
minutes to get that picture to you.

460
00:30:32,671 --> 00:30:36,801
So now you're talking about you might
have a picture that's 20 minutes old

461
00:30:36,801 --> 00:30:43,757
when you're looking at Nextrad Onboard
radar is real-time, which is great,

462
00:30:44,207 --> 00:30:51,757
but onboard radar also only shows you--
Right, and it's, it's, you know, you

463
00:30:51,757 --> 00:30:56,497
have that, that arc in front of you about
45 degrees either side of your nose.

464
00:30:56,987 --> 00:31:00,897
it's only good for a certain
distance out in front of you.

465
00:31:00,897 --> 00:31:03,957
It, it depends on the
size of the radar antenna.

466
00:31:04,397 --> 00:31:09,907
the bigger antennas are kind of
more focused and, so you get, a beam

467
00:31:09,907 --> 00:31:13,627
that goes farther before it starts
getting into ground clutter and such.

468
00:31:14,117 --> 00:31:18,647
But speaking of ground clutter, you
know, that stuff all gets automatically

469
00:31:18,647 --> 00:31:21,307
filtered out of that NEXRAD image.

470
00:31:21,737 --> 00:31:26,517
It doesn't get filtered out of your
onboard radar image, so then you're

471
00:31:26,517 --> 00:31:30,667
starting to deal with, okay, is
there a huge line of storms out there

472
00:31:30,667 --> 00:31:32,147
or am I just painting the ground?

473
00:31:32,839 --> 00:31:33,069
Mm-hmm.

474
00:31:34,257 --> 00:31:37,497
and you can usually kind of
tell the difference once you've

475
00:31:37,497 --> 00:31:38,777
played with it for a while.

476
00:31:39,147 --> 00:31:43,127
you know, the ground is always gonna
be painted a certain distance out,

477
00:31:43,137 --> 00:31:47,357
but it's a much more manual process.

478
00:31:47,367 --> 00:31:51,847
You know, nobody is filtering things out
or doing any of those things for you.

479
00:31:52,317 --> 00:31:58,137
You have to gain the knowledge to be
able to say, "Okay, what tilt do I

480
00:31:58,147 --> 00:32:03,077
want on my radar? Where am I gonna
get the best chance of actually seeing

481
00:32:03,077 --> 00:32:08,537
the precip?" and also am I, you know,
am I potentially overshooting some

482
00:32:08,537 --> 00:32:12,677
precip in an attempt to get rid of
that ground clutter on my screen?

483
00:32:13,307 --> 00:32:18,197
or, you know, the opposite problem
is if your tilt is too low, you might

484
00:32:18,197 --> 00:32:21,757
paint some precip that you're gonna
be 10,000 feet over the top of and

485
00:32:21,757 --> 00:32:23,127
you don't really need to worry about.

486
00:32:23,747 --> 00:32:25,967
so there, there's a lot more to learn.

487
00:32:26,087 --> 00:32:29,057
there's a lot more that goes
into the interpretation of the

488
00:32:29,057 --> 00:32:33,217
onboard radar, and it also suffers
from attenuation sometimes.

489
00:32:33,217 --> 00:32:39,197
So if you have a really big, strong
cell that's close to you, you can't

490
00:32:39,197 --> 00:32:40,567
see anything that's behind it.

491
00:32:41,363 --> 00:32:41,733
Right

492
00:32:41,817 --> 00:32:48,077
so the NEXRAD has different
sites that can make up for that.

493
00:32:48,127 --> 00:32:48,557
it, yeah

494
00:32:49,167 --> 00:32:49,667
Right.

495
00:32:49,727 --> 00:32:53,637
And so that's where being able to
see both pictures is really valuable.

496
00:32:53,637 --> 00:32:59,127
You can say, "Okay, not only is there this
one that's close to me, but if I go around

497
00:32:59,127 --> 00:33:01,257
it, I'm gonna get in even more trouble."

498
00:33:02,397 --> 00:33:05,057
And that sort of stuff doesn't
show up on the onboard radar.

499
00:33:05,057 --> 00:33:10,427
So, you know, just learning all those
strengths and weaknesses of each system

500
00:33:10,427 --> 00:33:15,377
and how to interpret them and use
them together, is, is really valuable.

501
00:33:15,837 --> 00:33:19,077
And I think I may have actually
gone into more detail just now than

502
00:33:19,077 --> 00:33:23,357
they did in the course, because they
talked more, they talked more about

503
00:33:23,417 --> 00:33:26,957
onboard radar, 'cause, you know, a
lot of airliners don't have data link.

504
00:33:27,647 --> 00:33:28,057
Right.

505
00:33:28,157 --> 00:33:28,457
Yeah.

506
00:33:29,690 --> 00:33:33,680
Believe it or not, in the jets
I'm flying now, we don't have

507
00:33:33,700 --> 00:33:35,220
ADS-B that gets fed to our iPads.

508
00:33:35,220 --> 00:33:39,310
Our iPads are not connected
to the panel at all.

509
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:44,550
We can connect to the internet on our
planes, and so we can get our, you know,

510
00:33:44,550 --> 00:33:48,250
we can get the Nexrad picture and our
ForeFlight through the internet instead.

511
00:33:48,790 --> 00:33:51,910
Yeah, So I wanna make a
note for our listeners.

512
00:33:52,230 --> 00:33:55,980
I'm sure everybody's thinking to
themselves, "Well, what is the type that

513
00:33:55,980 --> 00:34:02,020
you're flying?" But hold on, we're gonna
do another episode about his type rating,

514
00:34:02,410 --> 00:34:04,500
and we'll talk all about the airplane.

515
00:34:04,500 --> 00:34:06,060
So for now, just be patient.

516
00:34:06,293 --> 00:34:06,793
All right.

517
00:34:07,093 --> 00:34:07,673
So

518
00:34:07,913 --> 00:34:08,573
Sounds good

519
00:34:08,673 --> 00:34:09,980
to, switch over a little bit.

520
00:34:09,980 --> 00:34:14,380
Before we get into the air carrier
operations portion, which of course

521
00:34:14,380 --> 00:34:17,440
has a lot of different categories or
a lot of different, you know, segments

522
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:21,470
of information, I'd like to talk a
little bit about the leadership part.

523
00:34:22,340 --> 00:34:23,640
how did, how did you find that?

524
00:34:23,650 --> 00:34:29,390
Did you take away some, some good tools,
on leadership, CRM, things like that?

525
00:34:30,365 --> 00:34:33,825
CRM, you know, I had already
had CRM training before that,

526
00:34:33,825 --> 00:34:35,935
so that wasn't really new to me.

527
00:34:36,385 --> 00:34:40,115
you know, and that's, that's something
that you can find in a lot of places.

528
00:34:40,975 --> 00:34:46,235
I think, especially just because we
had this really experienced airline

529
00:34:46,235 --> 00:34:50,745
captain teaching the course, probably
the best thing I got out of that was

530
00:34:50,755 --> 00:34:52,885
how to communicate with your passengers.

531
00:34:53,715 --> 00:34:56,985
you know, he was very
particular about a few things.

532
00:34:56,985 --> 00:35:04,305
Like, he said, "Do not ever lie to
your passengers, because if they

533
00:35:04,305 --> 00:35:07,895
figure that out, it's game over.
They're never gonna trust you again."

534
00:35:08,026 --> 00:35:08,446
gone.

535
00:35:08,486 --> 00:35:09,436
Yep, that's right

536
00:35:09,565 --> 00:35:10,115
right.

537
00:35:10,645 --> 00:35:16,245
And, you know, and I have a friend
who is also a retired airline captain

538
00:35:16,245 --> 00:35:20,255
who we got into this same kind of
discussion and, and he was talking about

539
00:35:20,255 --> 00:35:26,925
how, you know, if you get everybody
on the same team, things go better.

540
00:35:26,975 --> 00:35:33,395
And he said, you know, for example,
you're on a flight, it's already

541
00:35:33,405 --> 00:35:39,265
delayed, and then the airplane
breaks, and there's different ways

542
00:35:39,265 --> 00:35:41,075
you can communicate that to people.

543
00:35:41,095 --> 00:35:44,895
But he said, you know, if you
just get everybody on the same

544
00:35:44,895 --> 00:35:48,275
team, great things happen.

545
00:35:48,545 --> 00:35:54,695
If you say, "Hey, look, everybody,
I know this sucks, and I'm not real

546
00:35:54,695 --> 00:35:59,575
happy about it either, but we have a
maintenance issue with our airplane.

547
00:35:59,575 --> 00:36:01,625
We're gonna need to switch
to a different airplane.

548
00:36:02,455 --> 00:36:07,515
But if we can all help each other out,
we'll get onto this other airplane as

549
00:36:07,515 --> 00:36:11,715
quickly as possible, and we'll get on,
you know, we'll get on our way as soon

550
00:36:11,715 --> 00:36:16,975
as we can." And he said, you know, "Once
you do that and you get people helping

551
00:36:16,975 --> 00:36:20,225
each other out, everybody's happier."

552
00:36:20,865 --> 00:36:23,805
You know, it's not, "Well, I'm
mad at the airline," or, "I'm

553
00:36:23,815 --> 00:36:25,355
mad at the captain," or whatever.

554
00:36:25,355 --> 00:36:28,505
It's, "Hey, let's help each other
out," and, you know, we all have

555
00:36:28,505 --> 00:36:32,925
the common goal of getting to where
we're going, so, you know, if we

556
00:36:32,925 --> 00:36:34,455
help each other out, we can do it.

557
00:36:34,555 --> 00:36:39,735
and so just how you communicate with
your passengers is extremely important.

558
00:36:40,335 --> 00:36:43,905
and he just had all kinds of
really, really good examples of that

559
00:36:45,500 --> 00:36:45,970
Excellent.

560
00:36:47,260 --> 00:36:50,687
you know, everybody talks
about leadership, um, CRM,

561
00:36:50,794 --> 00:36:51,644
CRM, things like that.

562
00:36:52,414 --> 00:36:56,504
Was there any part of that training that
was, I don't know the best term for this,

563
00:36:56,504 --> 00:37:02,534
so I'm gonna make one up, that was more
like how to be better at followership?

564
00:37:03,304 --> 00:37:07,074
how to be a, a good junior crew
member, you know, things like that

565
00:37:10,971 --> 00:37:14,621
You know, I would actually have
to look in my notes for that.

566
00:37:14,721 --> 00:37:20,521
you know, I think there was some talk
about that, But I guess, you know, one

567
00:37:20,521 --> 00:37:27,201
of the things that he was talking about
was, warning the pilot flying, or the,

568
00:37:27,211 --> 00:37:33,801
the PIC, and how to do that, because
there have been some instances where,

569
00:37:34,381 --> 00:37:38,701
for example, the worst airline crash
there's ever been, the, the Tenerife

570
00:37:39,071 --> 00:37:46,641
crash, where w- two f- 747s hit each
other on the runway, 583 people killed.

571
00:37:47,561 --> 00:37:53,941
One of the things that went into that
was on, that was a, a TWA and a KLM,

572
00:37:53,941 --> 00:37:58,401
and on the KLM flight, they had been
cleared essentially to line up and

573
00:37:58,401 --> 00:38:05,801
wait, not cleared for takeoff, and the
captain read back, "We are at takeoff."

574
00:38:06,171 --> 00:38:10,211
He didn't say cleared for takeoff, so
there was some ambiguity to what he said.

575
00:38:11,001 --> 00:38:16,831
But he shoved the throttles forward, and
the first officer said, "Are we cleared

576
00:38:16,831 --> 00:38:24,171
for takeoff?" And the captain said, "Ja
wel," which in Dutch is an emphatic yes.

577
00:38:25,041 --> 00:38:27,791
and the first officer
didn't say anything more.

578
00:38:28,596 --> 00:38:28,846
Yeah

579
00:38:28,921 --> 00:38:31,221
And then this crash happened.

580
00:38:31,281 --> 00:38:35,481
so he gave, a really good example
of, in fact, I'm gonna go back to

581
00:38:35,481 --> 00:38:37,891
my notes and, and, read this off.

582
00:38:38,041 --> 00:38:39,411
CUSS words he called it.

583
00:38:39,561 --> 00:38:42,281
Concerned, uncomfortable, safe.

584
00:38:42,771 --> 00:38:51,111
and then also said, okay, inquiry,
advocacy, and assertion are

585
00:38:51,111 --> 00:38:52,561
kind of the, the three levels.

586
00:38:52,571 --> 00:38:56,571
So the first thing you do is you
say, "Hey, are we cleared for

587
00:38:56,571 --> 00:39:04,171
takeoff?" And if you get a response
that's not satisfactory, then

588
00:39:04,171 --> 00:39:09,181
the second one is, "Hey, I don't
think we were cleared for takeoff.

589
00:39:09,671 --> 00:39:13,571
You know, let's double-check this before
we do anything." The third step is,

590
00:39:13,611 --> 00:39:15,391
"Hey, we're not for, cleared for takeoff.

591
00:39:15,421 --> 00:39:20,741
Abort, abort, abort." So yeah, starting
with a warning, then a more emphatic

592
00:39:20,741 --> 00:39:25,281
warning, then a very emphatic, "Do it
now," and then take over the aircraft

593
00:39:27,415 --> 00:39:31,875
which hopefully nobody ever gets
to that point where they have to

594
00:39:31,895 --> 00:39:36,505
literally take over the aircraft
because at that point there's been

595
00:39:36,530 --> 00:39:37,590
poor leadership

596
00:39:38,055 --> 00:39:38,645
breakdown

597
00:39:39,370 --> 00:39:39,750
Yep.

598
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:40,670
Yep.

599
00:39:42,390 --> 00:39:43,360
Yeah, really interesting.

600
00:39:43,370 --> 00:39:45,640
Of course, that, that crash
you're speaking of happened

601
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:47,200
in, kind of a different time.

602
00:39:47,260 --> 00:39:51,920
there were different safety cultures
and CRM practices at the time,

603
00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:54,950
and it's the reason we've changed,
you know, tried to change that

604
00:39:54,950 --> 00:39:56,190
culture in the industry, right?

605
00:39:56,889 --> 00:39:57,309
Yeah.

606
00:39:57,559 --> 00:40:01,539
Yeah, I believe that crash was in
about 1983 or so, if I remember right.

607
00:40:01,539 --> 00:40:03,409
It was the early '80s
one way or the other.

608
00:40:04,479 --> 00:40:10,309
and I know that the, the crash that really
brought CRM to the forefront and, caused

609
00:40:10,329 --> 00:40:17,429
the FAA to make everybody do CRM training
was United Flight 232, which kind of like

610
00:40:17,429 --> 00:40:22,379
the Miracle on the Hudson was one of the
rare airline crashes where instead of

611
00:40:22,379 --> 00:40:26,559
looking at everything went, that went
wrong, they can look at what went right.

612
00:40:26,589 --> 00:40:32,189
Because even though United 232
did have quite a few fatalities,

613
00:40:32,689 --> 00:40:35,039
it also had a lot of survivors,

614
00:40:36,289 --> 00:40:39,959
a situation where you
wouldn't expect that at all.

615
00:40:40,339 --> 00:40:44,639
and for those who aren't familiar,
that flight is the… Yeah, that, that

616
00:40:44,639 --> 00:40:50,149
flight is the one, it was a DC-10, I
think just going from Denver to Chicago.

617
00:40:50,209 --> 00:40:54,929
and the number two engine, the one on the
tail, had an uncontained failure and just

618
00:40:55,109 --> 00:41:01,369
shredded a lot of stuff, including all
four hydraulic systems on the airplane.

619
00:41:01,989 --> 00:41:06,739
And so the flight crew did not
have any control of the flying

620
00:41:06,739 --> 00:41:08,599
surfaces on the airplane anymore.

621
00:41:09,349 --> 00:41:13,579
but they used what they had
available, which was their remaining

622
00:41:13,579 --> 00:41:19,529
two engines, and got the airplane
to an airport, which was huge.

623
00:41:20,179 --> 00:41:23,379
you know, crash, fire, and rescue
that's been trained and everything.

624
00:41:23,869 --> 00:41:28,019
and so yeah, a bunch of people
survived that when that sort of

625
00:41:28,019 --> 00:41:33,249
crash is not something you might ever
expect anybody to be able to survive,

626
00:41:33,249 --> 00:41:37,189
when you literally have a yoke in
front of you that does nothing.

627
00:41:38,009 --> 00:41:38,319
Yeah.

628
00:41:38,628 --> 00:41:45,078
after that crash, the, the FAA went,
"Hey, what did these guys do that made

629
00:41:45,078 --> 00:41:49,018
this go as well as it did?" And one of
the things that they discovered is that

630
00:41:49,018 --> 00:41:53,888
United had been doing this crew resource
management training for about 10 years

631
00:41:53,888 --> 00:41:59,728
before that, and they had more of a
culture of listening to the first officers

632
00:41:59,758 --> 00:42:02,588
as opposed to-- Right, right, exactly.

633
00:42:02,988 --> 00:42:08,188
and not anymore the old culture
of what the captain says goes.

634
00:42:08,829 --> 00:42:09,119
Mm-hmm.

635
00:42:11,607 --> 00:42:11,887
Yeah.

636
00:42:12,098 --> 00:42:13,738
Now it's biggest chicken wins.

637
00:42:14,807 --> 00:42:14,817
Yeah.

638
00:42:14,817 --> 00:42:14,827
Awesome.

639
00:42:14,827 --> 00:42:14,977
All right, well let's dive into a, a
couple of the things in air carrier

640
00:42:14,977 --> 00:42:15,147
operations, and if you don't touch on
one or two of 'em, I might bring 'em up

641
00:42:15,147 --> 00:42:18,817
'cause I'm, I'm pretty interested myself

642
00:42:27,580 --> 00:42:27,780
Okay.

643
00:42:29,030 --> 00:42:33,830
I guess I'll start, and this is not
necessarily part of the course, but,

644
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:38,650
just from my own experience, I, I
wanna talk about what's different about

645
00:42:38,650 --> 00:42:42,730
air carrier operations, and this'll
touch on operational control, which

646
00:42:42,730 --> 00:42:47,660
is one of the, items here that's on
the, the list of required things.

647
00:42:48,090 --> 00:42:53,900
for an air carrier operation, and this
can be Part 121 airline, this can be,

648
00:42:54,330 --> 00:42:59,290
Part 135 charter, you know, anybody
who's required to have a certificate.

649
00:42:59,290 --> 00:43:05,310
In fact, I would actually lump the 91K
operators in there, the NetJets and stuff.

650
00:43:05,310 --> 00:43:09,910
Even though it's technically Part
91, it is a lot more regulated

651
00:43:09,910 --> 00:43:12,400
than the rest of Part 91.

652
00:43:12,450 --> 00:43:16,720
but any air carrier in those groups
is gonna have what are called

653
00:43:16,730 --> 00:43:21,390
operational specifications, ops
specs, which is basically a list

654
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:23,200
of what they are allowed to do.

655
00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:29,510
and sometimes those things even
allow you to, I don't necessarily

656
00:43:29,510 --> 00:43:31,130
wanna say violate the regulations.

657
00:43:31,130 --> 00:43:35,140
It, it basically gives you
relief from some regulations.

658
00:43:35,670 --> 00:43:41,800
for example, one ops spec that it's
possible to get in Part 135 is, normally

659
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:47,200
any IFR flight with passengers under
Part 135 has to have two pilots.

660
00:43:47,980 --> 00:43:52,450
But there is one ops spec that's
available that allows you to

661
00:43:52,450 --> 00:43:56,680
use a three-axis autopilot in
lieu of the second crew member.

662
00:43:57,240 --> 00:43:59,630
some carriers have that, some don't.

663
00:44:00,100 --> 00:44:07,080
so every carrier's going to have certain
ops specs, that allow them to do what

664
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:10,950
they wanna do, and those all have to
be approved and signed off by the FAA.

665
00:44:11,830 --> 00:44:15,020
and the FAA, of course, has
criteria that have to be met

666
00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:16,600
before those get signed off.

667
00:44:17,270 --> 00:44:21,650
the other thing that all, all air
carriers are gonna have is either, an

668
00:44:21,660 --> 00:44:26,650
FOM, flight operations manual, or a GOM,
which is a general operations manual.

669
00:44:26,650 --> 00:44:27,990
They're essentially the same thing.

670
00:44:28,530 --> 00:44:32,680
the ops specs and the regulations
are what you have to do.

671
00:44:33,180 --> 00:44:38,970
the GOM or the FOM is going to be how
you comply with all of those things.

672
00:44:39,405 --> 00:44:39,415
Hmm.

673
00:44:39,580 --> 00:44:43,930
So lots of standard operating
procedures and all that kind of stuff.

674
00:44:45,340 --> 00:44:51,160
So every air carrier is going to have
that level of structure to their flying.

675
00:44:52,430 --> 00:44:54,790
And it really does help safety.

676
00:44:56,020 --> 00:44:58,780
You know, it's one of those things
that until you've kind of been in

677
00:44:58,780 --> 00:45:04,210
the system, it seems like, well, this
is, you know, this is unnecessary.

678
00:45:04,210 --> 00:45:07,220
This doesn't sound like fun
anymore or that kind of stuff.

679
00:45:07,250 --> 00:45:11,920
But it really does improve
safety, especially, you know,

680
00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:13,990
the larger carrier you get to.

681
00:45:14,780 --> 00:45:19,570
You know, if you're flying at
a major airline, you are never,

682
00:45:19,660 --> 00:45:21,520
ever flying with the same people.

683
00:45:22,380 --> 00:45:28,640
You know, you're going to be with
a crew for one, you know, one

684
00:45:29,050 --> 00:45:30,890
four-day trip or something like that.

685
00:45:31,175 --> 00:45:32,855
And then you'll probably
never see them again.

686
00:45:33,595 --> 00:45:34,035
Right.

687
00:45:34,085 --> 00:45:40,065
And so everybody has to do everything
the exact same way so that there

688
00:45:40,065 --> 00:45:45,765
are no surprises because some of the
crashes they talked about in this

689
00:45:45,775 --> 00:45:50,695
ATP-CTP course and, you know, just that
crash we were talking about just now.

690
00:45:51,405 --> 00:45:53,225
You know, we are at takeoff.

691
00:45:53,235 --> 00:45:54,675
That's non-standard phraseology.

692
00:45:54,685 --> 00:46:00,375
Shouldn't happen because it allows there
to be the potential of miscommunication.

693
00:46:01,905 --> 00:46:06,995
And so that structure is really
what's common to all air carriers.

694
00:46:09,125 --> 00:46:13,355
So now that I have that out of the
way, a lot of these things that

695
00:46:13,355 --> 00:46:19,705
they put under the heading of air
carrier operations are really more

696
00:46:19,925 --> 00:46:24,695
about, you know, jet operations
and, you know, turbine operations,

697
00:46:24,695 --> 00:46:26,455
high altitude operations still.

698
00:46:26,465 --> 00:46:30,535
So physiology is the
first one on the list.

699
00:46:31,915 --> 00:46:35,955
You know, a lot of that is
oxygen deprivation type stuff.

700
00:46:36,395 --> 00:46:41,975
There are some other things that they
deal with, but that's probably the

701
00:46:42,069 --> 00:46:42,799
consciousness,

702
00:46:42,865 --> 00:46:43,245
one.

703
00:46:43,735 --> 00:46:44,455
Yes.

704
00:46:44,685 --> 00:46:45,105
Yep.

705
00:46:45,205 --> 00:46:49,125
The higher up you are, the
shorter that time period is.

706
00:46:50,405 --> 00:46:55,655
I will recommend here several years
ago, maybe even a decade ago now,

707
00:46:56,245 --> 00:47:01,545
I went down to FAA headquarters in
Oklahoma City and I did the oxygen

708
00:47:01,635 --> 00:47:03,715
chamber training that they have.

709
00:47:04,365 --> 00:47:05,565
And it was fantastic.

710
00:47:05,575 --> 00:47:05,595
You

711
00:47:08,495 --> 00:47:13,115
know, you get to experience
hypoxia for yourself and everybody

712
00:47:13,115 --> 00:47:14,495
experiences it differently.

713
00:47:14,495 --> 00:47:18,315
And so that training is all
about just recognizing what

714
00:47:18,325 --> 00:47:20,435
your particular symptoms are.

715
00:47:23,111 --> 00:47:26,971
They have a bunch of training videos
that they go through there as well.

716
00:47:27,341 --> 00:47:32,931
One of which is they… So the, the
chamber training they do, they only

717
00:47:32,931 --> 00:47:35,531
take you up to 25,000 feet at most.

718
00:47:36,181 --> 00:47:39,721
they don't need to be doing things
like knocking you out or anything like

719
00:47:39,721 --> 00:47:41,861
that for you to, to get the experience.

720
00:47:41,891 --> 00:47:47,321
But they do show some videos of
people, you know, they showed an

721
00:47:47,391 --> 00:47:53,411
old video of an airline captain,
essentially being, at 35,000 feet.

722
00:47:54,081 --> 00:47:57,161
again, this was in a chamber, so
he wasn't really up in the sky,

723
00:47:57,181 --> 00:47:59,121
but they had him at that pressure.

724
00:47:59,601 --> 00:48:05,241
And yeah, it was four or five
seconds, and he was useless.

725
00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:11,080
so I'd, I'd definitely recommend that
as, as something that people should

726
00:48:11,100 --> 00:48:15,240
consider going and doing if, if you
have the ability to, to take a few

727
00:48:15,240 --> 00:48:17,350
days and, and travel to Oklahoma City.

728
00:48:17,580 --> 00:48:21,300
The training itself was only one day.

729
00:48:21,910 --> 00:48:24,020
but it does start right away
in the morning, so you need

730
00:48:24,020 --> 00:48:25,490
to get there the day before.

731
00:48:26,080 --> 00:48:31,770
And you can't fly for 24 hours
after you're done, so you

732
00:48:31,770 --> 00:48:32,940
need to stay for another day.

733
00:48:33,910 --> 00:48:37,510
Well, it's something that any
pilot can go and do for free.

734
00:48:38,199 --> 00:48:38,479
Yeah.

735
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:42,060
you know, obviously you'll have
travel costs to get there, but, they

736
00:48:42,060 --> 00:48:43,790
don't charge anything for the course.

737
00:48:44,350 --> 00:48:47,800
you just have to get on the list,
which is not always easy, but

738
00:48:47,830 --> 00:48:50,220
it's absolutely well worth it.

739
00:48:50,730 --> 00:48:53,700
you know, if you're a CFI, go
and take your students with you.

740
00:48:53,780 --> 00:48:55,010
it was, it was well worth it

741
00:48:56,691 --> 00:49:01,221
Well, I have a question for you, in
that, category of air carrier operations.

742
00:49:01,641 --> 00:49:09,371
we s- several episodes ago did,
did an episode on checklists, for

743
00:49:09,391 --> 00:49:14,081
Beyond the Checkride, and I know
that checklist philosophy is, is

744
00:49:14,091 --> 00:49:15,921
one of the areas that's covered.

745
00:49:16,381 --> 00:49:21,981
any epiphanies or anything that you w-
wanna bring up, or was it pretty much

746
00:49:21,981 --> 00:49:23,151
everything we'd already talked about?

747
00:49:24,404 --> 00:49:29,524
Well, I don't know how much we talked
about in terms of checklist philosophy,

748
00:49:29,614 --> 00:49:33,404
as it relates to multi-crew operations.

749
00:49:33,444 --> 00:49:36,804
I think we were talking more about
building your own checklists.

750
00:49:37,571 --> 00:49:40,451
Yeah, and, and single
pilot operations mostly.

751
00:49:40,472 --> 00:49:41,042
Right.

752
00:49:41,242 --> 00:49:47,832
So really, checklists philosophy
comes down to how you use

753
00:49:47,832 --> 00:49:49,512
checklists in a crew environment.

754
00:49:50,042 --> 00:49:53,942
for example, always read the
name of the checklist when

755
00:49:53,942 --> 00:49:55,312
you're starting the checklist.

756
00:49:55,942 --> 00:49:59,932
There are checklists that are
similar, and once in a while… In

757
00:49:59,932 --> 00:50:08,052
fact, my current employer, changed
the name of some checklists because

758
00:50:08,242 --> 00:50:14,142
they had, some checklists that had
the same name, and you use them

759
00:50:14,142 --> 00:50:15,432
at different points of the flight.

760
00:50:16,822 --> 00:50:19,392
So transition altitude checklist, right?

761
00:50:19,982 --> 00:50:23,172
Well, you use that
going up and going down.

762
00:50:23,182 --> 00:50:27,422
So now we have a transition
altitude checklist, and we have

763
00:50:27,422 --> 00:50:29,622
a transition level checklist.

764
00:50:30,303 --> 00:50:30,313
Hmm.

765
00:50:30,582 --> 00:50:34,172
You know, altitude is on the
way up, level's on the way down

766
00:50:34,644 --> 00:50:39,404
So yeah, you always wanna be reading
the name of the checklist and make

767
00:50:39,404 --> 00:50:41,144
sure that you're on the right one.

768
00:50:41,694 --> 00:50:45,994
you always want to say, "Checklist
complete" when you're done.

769
00:50:46,706 --> 00:50:47,076
Mm-hmm.

770
00:50:47,164 --> 00:50:49,354
checklist complete." Great.

771
00:50:49,964 --> 00:50:55,864
you do not want to stop-- or
you don't wanna skip things

772
00:50:56,244 --> 00:50:57,414
in the middle of a checklist.

773
00:50:57,714 --> 00:51:01,644
If you need to stop a checklist for
any reason, you know, if there's

774
00:51:01,644 --> 00:51:04,234
some item you can't do yet, you stop

775
00:51:05,164 --> 00:51:05,734
Mm-hmm.

776
00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:10,580
And then when you can complete
the checklist, you continue

777
00:51:10,824 --> 00:51:12,084
"Oh, we'll come back to this"?

778
00:51:12,770 --> 00:51:13,210
Right.

779
00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:17,800
And this applies to single
engine piston operations.

780
00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:19,090
I can tell you that we had a,

781
00:51:19,110 --> 00:51:19,390
Yep

782
00:51:19,413 --> 00:51:24,473
an incident in the flying club
where somebody was flying the R182

783
00:51:26,625 --> 00:51:33,605
And decided to do his before landing
checklist early, and hey, nothing wrong

784
00:51:33,605 --> 00:51:35,255
with getting things done early, right?

785
00:51:35,255 --> 00:51:36,445
Staying ahead of the plane.

786
00:51:36,525 --> 00:51:37,605
The problem was

787
00:51:38,156 --> 00:51:38,866
Yeah,

788
00:51:39,285 --> 00:51:42,255
at a point where he was going
too fast to put the gear down.

789
00:51:42,696 --> 00:51:43,056
Mm-hmm.

790
00:51:43,225 --> 00:51:46,025
And so he did the rest of the
checklist and put it down.

791
00:51:47,255 --> 00:51:52,525
And then, just due to some quirks of
how the gear warning system works in

792
00:51:52,525 --> 00:51:55,665
that plane and, and the techniques
he was using for his approach and

793
00:51:55,665 --> 00:52:02,515
landing, the gear warning system did
not go off until he was in the flare

794
00:52:03,874 --> 00:52:04,104
Mm.

795
00:52:04,763 --> 00:52:08,913
'cause yeah, on the R182, if you're
not at full flaps, the only other

796
00:52:08,913 --> 00:52:13,263
trigger is that you're below 12
inches of manifold pressure, which

797
00:52:13,263 --> 00:52:17,543
really doesn't happen until you're
pulling the power out at landing

798
00:52:19,829 --> 00:52:21,679
Well, it's an old airplane.

799
00:52:21,759 --> 00:52:25,049
It doesn't say, "Gear
up, gear up." It goes

800
00:52:28,489 --> 00:52:33,779
And you might be expecting a beeper or
a buzzer or something to go off when

801
00:52:33,779 --> 00:52:35,349
you're landing for the stall, right?

802
00:52:35,756 --> 00:52:36,176
Mm-hmm

803
00:52:36,349 --> 00:52:40,179
And in the half a second or a second it
took him to process that that was the gear

804
00:52:40,179 --> 00:52:44,239
warning and not the stall warning that
was going off, the prop hit the runway.

805
00:52:44,968 --> 00:52:45,348
Hmm.

806
00:52:45,769 --> 00:52:50,109
so that's when I learned that,
is, you know, you don't keep

807
00:52:50,139 --> 00:52:51,209
going with the checklist.

808
00:52:51,209 --> 00:52:55,239
If you can't do all the things
on the checklist, you just stop.

809
00:52:56,269 --> 00:53:00,169
if there's something else on the checklist
you wanna do, you can do it, but you

810
00:53:00,169 --> 00:53:05,409
don't, you know, you don't actually
continue reading the checklists, and you

811
00:53:05,419 --> 00:53:07,249
definitely don't say, "Checklist complete

812
00:53:07,788 --> 00:53:08,368
Right.

813
00:53:08,588 --> 00:53:08,898
Right.

814
00:53:09,477 --> 00:53:14,457
at a previous carrier, we've had a rule
that you had to be physically holding

815
00:53:14,457 --> 00:53:16,017
onto the checklist until it was done.

816
00:53:16,920 --> 00:53:17,300
Mm-hmm.

817
00:53:17,370 --> 00:53:18,000
I like that.

818
00:53:18,447 --> 00:53:20,207
I still do that now, you know

819
00:53:20,340 --> 00:53:23,100
I, I, I teach that actually.

820
00:53:24,060 --> 00:53:28,530
single pilot operations is obviously
what I'm teaching and, it's a little

821
00:53:28,530 --> 00:53:32,620
bit different than, you know, a, a
crewed environment, so you have to do

822
00:53:32,620 --> 00:53:34,800
your own checks and balances, right?

823
00:53:35,860 --> 00:53:36,020
so

824
00:53:36,051 --> 00:53:36,471
Yeah.

825
00:53:36,490 --> 00:53:37,110
that's one of them

826
00:53:38,281 --> 00:53:44,634
Well, and something that might, work
well for, single pilots, I like to,

827
00:53:44,684 --> 00:53:47,974
when I'm creating a checklist, like we
talked about in that previous episode,

828
00:53:48,554 --> 00:53:53,844
I like to have something somehow
that's unique to that checklist.

829
00:53:54,874 --> 00:54:01,264
And that way, if I am wondering, "Oh, did
I complete that checklist?" I have one

830
00:54:01,264 --> 00:54:05,154
thing I can look at and I can, you know,
it'll be a switch or something like that,

831
00:54:05,524 --> 00:54:09,574
and I can say, "Okay, if that switch is
not on, I didn't finish that checklist."

832
00:54:10,240 --> 00:54:10,660
Mm-hmm.

833
00:54:11,964 --> 00:54:12,194
Yep

834
00:54:12,429 --> 00:54:15,069
it's a lot easier when you have two
crew and you can go to the other

835
00:54:15,069 --> 00:54:17,429
guy, "Hey, did we do that checklist?"

836
00:54:18,194 --> 00:54:19,024
It's a tr- it's a

837
00:54:19,209 --> 00:54:20,209
and then, you know,

838
00:54:20,324 --> 00:54:21,284
in that case, yeah

839
00:54:21,419 --> 00:54:22,229
right, right.

840
00:54:22,249 --> 00:54:26,299
But if there's, you know, sometimes
even if you did, you just go,

841
00:54:27,269 --> 00:54:30,219
"I'm not sure we did that on this
leg. Let's just do it again."

842
00:54:30,544 --> 00:54:31,324
I'm doing it again.

843
00:54:31,394 --> 00:54:31,694
Yep,

844
00:54:31,909 --> 00:54:33,269
No, no harm in that

845
00:54:34,134 --> 00:54:38,844
I, I also teach to, to do a flow
and then check your flow with the

846
00:54:39,091 --> 00:54:39,411
Yep.

847
00:54:39,864 --> 00:54:40,034
That

848
00:54:40,071 --> 00:54:42,901
Checklist should be a
checklist, not a do list

849
00:54:43,174 --> 00:54:43,874
Exactly.

850
00:54:44,114 --> 00:54:44,824
Exactly.

851
00:54:45,043 --> 00:54:45,453
Yep

852
00:54:45,944 --> 00:54:46,454
Cool.

853
00:54:46,524 --> 00:54:47,614
Well, that's good stuff.

854
00:54:48,334 --> 00:54:48,904
All right.

855
00:54:49,274 --> 00:54:52,924
w- another thing I'm curious
about, is ground operations.

856
00:54:53,684 --> 00:54:55,614
what was talked about
in ground operations?

857
00:54:56,941 --> 00:55:02,431
I guess in performance they talked
about VMCG, which is your minimum

858
00:55:02,531 --> 00:55:05,041
directional control speed on the ground.

859
00:55:05,571 --> 00:55:11,181
if you've ever wondered why, on some
of the bigger jets they push the power

860
00:55:11,251 --> 00:55:15,541
halfway up and then sit there and wait
for a second and then push it the rest

861
00:55:15,541 --> 00:55:20,621
of the way up, that's because the engines
are gonna spool up at different speeds,

862
00:55:21,221 --> 00:55:25,381
and it's possible if you just took the
throttles and shoved them all the way from

863
00:55:25,381 --> 00:55:30,501
idle to full, that one engine would spool
up a bunch more than the other and then

864
00:55:30,561 --> 00:55:33,301
the airplane would turn on the ground.

865
00:55:33,421 --> 00:55:36,031
you know, your nose wheel would
just go skidding sideways.

866
00:55:36,031 --> 00:55:42,421
And so they push it to 50%, wait
for the engines to spool up, so

867
00:55:42,421 --> 00:55:44,931
that when they push it the rest
of the way, they should be synced

868
00:55:44,991 --> 00:55:46,991
up enough to, to maintain control

869
00:55:47,073 --> 00:55:48,923
you don't end up with
significantly different

870
00:55:49,303 --> 00:55:50,783
differential thrust or something?

871
00:55:51,013 --> 00:55:51,223
Hmm,

872
00:55:51,543 --> 00:55:51,963
Right

873
00:55:53,128 --> 00:55:58,908
Well, anything else in the air carrier
operations, a list of topics that stand

874
00:55:58,908 --> 00:56:00,338
out to you that you wanna talk about?

875
00:56:00,698 --> 00:56:03,108
Or should we move on to
the fun stuff, the sim?

876
00:56:04,482 --> 00:56:09,302
Well, let's talk for a little bit
about the automation, navigation,

877
00:56:09,322 --> 00:56:11,942
and flight path warning systems.

878
00:56:12,612 --> 00:56:18,702
again, you know, there are plenty
of 172s out there that have, you

879
00:56:18,702 --> 00:56:24,062
know, G1000 and have all kinds of
bells and whistles that, you know, we

880
00:56:24,072 --> 00:56:25,942
didn't necessarily have in the past.

881
00:56:26,492 --> 00:56:28,552
you know, really advanced autopilots.

882
00:56:28,552 --> 00:56:28,742
Uh, but airline operations, you're

883
00:56:32,182 --> 00:56:34,202
gonna have a pretty advanced autopilot.

884
00:56:34,632 --> 00:56:41,152
You're gonna have things like EGPWS that
aren't going to be on a small airplane.

885
00:56:41,672 --> 00:56:44,172
TCAS, that's not gonna
be on a small airplane.

886
00:56:44,172 --> 00:56:51,212
So they, they went through things like,
um, you know… Well, and this, this

887
00:56:51,222 --> 00:56:56,372
is partially in the sim as well, but
So the, the EGPWS that I mentioned a

888
00:56:56,372 --> 00:57:01,702
second ago, that's E-G-P-W-S, Enhanced
Ground Proximity Warning System.

889
00:57:03,422 --> 00:57:10,032
So when that goes off, there is an
escape maneuver that you execute

890
00:57:10,062 --> 00:57:13,132
immediately, no questions asked,
because you don't wanna go splat.

891
00:57:14,412 --> 00:57:24,722
and they, they talked at length about
American Flight 965 in Cali, Colombia.

892
00:57:26,322 --> 00:57:28,212
This was back in about 1995.

893
00:57:28,212 --> 00:57:35,612
I believe it was a 757 on approach
in a country that, you know…

894
00:57:35,672 --> 00:57:38,032
And this is before GPS even.

895
00:57:38,712 --> 00:57:47,272
they were on an NDB approach, and
there was some confusion about where

896
00:57:47,272 --> 00:57:53,542
exactly they were because, apparently
there were multiple NDBs in various

897
00:57:53,602 --> 00:57:58,642
points of the world that had the same
identifier as the one that they needed.

898
00:57:59,632 --> 00:58:02,682
And there was, I forget
exactly what it was.

899
00:58:02,682 --> 00:58:07,162
There was something about their
database, and how they were trying

900
00:58:07,162 --> 00:58:11,422
to program this stuff into their
flight management system, where it

901
00:58:11,432 --> 00:58:14,172
completely screwed up their navigation.

902
00:58:15,362 --> 00:58:21,992
And so they ended up, in the process
of trying to fix this, pointed at

903
00:58:21,992 --> 00:58:28,382
a mountain and eventually got the,
ground proximity warning system,

904
00:58:28,422 --> 00:58:30,932
and they tried to climb out of it.

905
00:58:31,332 --> 00:58:34,062
but unfortunately, they still had
their air brakes on because they

906
00:58:34,062 --> 00:58:36,782
were trying to come down initially.

907
00:58:37,472 --> 00:58:41,742
and it sounds like that if they
had not had their air brakes

908
00:58:41,742 --> 00:58:43,582
out, they might have made it.

909
00:58:44,052 --> 00:58:46,092
They might have been able
to out-climb that mountain.

910
00:58:46,282 --> 00:58:51,752
But unfortunately, they crashed, and all
but four people on the plane were killed.

911
00:58:51,912 --> 00:58:55,602
So, you know, big, big
accident for American.

912
00:58:55,602 --> 00:58:59,202
And of course, that captain that was
our instructor remembered it vividly.

913
00:58:59,842 --> 00:59:05,032
so yeah, they talked a lot about,
navigation in situations like that where

914
00:59:05,032 --> 00:59:07,092
you don't have the latest and greatest.

915
00:59:07,502 --> 00:59:11,752
you know, ways that even your latest
and greatest stuff can mess you up.

916
00:59:12,342 --> 00:59:14,182
So important stuff to learn

917
00:59:15,445 --> 00:59:19,955
Well, let's talk about the sim,
and my first question for you

918
00:59:20,855 --> 00:59:24,455
is how was that UPRT training?

919
00:59:24,525 --> 00:59:25,715
What was that like in the sim?

920
00:59:28,013 --> 00:59:31,623
Well, that was maybe the most
interesting part of the sim training.

921
00:59:32,287 --> 00:59:33,077
I would think so

922
00:59:35,193 --> 00:59:40,453
I ended up in the Airbus A320 sim,
which in itself was interesting.

923
00:59:40,453 --> 00:59:45,503
You know, it is not, You know, like
I said, there's no checkride for

924
00:59:45,503 --> 00:59:49,523
this, and so it doesn't really matter
what aircraft type you end up in.

925
00:59:49,973 --> 00:59:54,983
there is a minimum weight that
the aircraft, you know, minimum

926
00:59:54,993 --> 00:59:57,963
weight of the aircraft that the
simulator is supposed to be for.

927
00:59:58,673 --> 01:00:02,313
you know, I know some people have
gotten the 737 as well, and, and

928
01:00:02,313 --> 01:00:07,083
that seems to be roughly the class
of aircraft that the, ATP/CTP courses

929
01:00:07,143 --> 01:00:13,443
go for is the, you know, the A320 or
737, you know, mid-size airline jet.

930
01:00:14,273 --> 01:00:19,383
but yeah, the A320 of course
is a highly automated, some may

931
01:00:19,383 --> 01:00:21,433
say over-automated airplane.

932
01:00:22,093 --> 01:00:25,283
and it's a little bit weird
to fly because of that.

933
01:00:25,973 --> 01:00:29,263
so it was, it was interesting
getting into that, and I would not

934
01:00:29,413 --> 01:00:32,723
say I necessarily know anything
about how the Airbus itself works.

935
01:00:33,243 --> 01:00:37,113
But, yeah, I, I actually managed to

936
01:00:39,645 --> 01:00:43,625
I wouldn't say crashed the sim in
the airplane sense, but I would say

937
01:00:43,625 --> 01:00:49,115
I crashed the sim in the IT sense,
um, on one of the recoveries because

938
01:00:49,295 --> 01:00:54,665
it just stopped and said, "Please
call the sim maintenance people."

939
01:00:54,665 --> 01:00:58,035
And then we had about an hour
break while they put it back to

940
01:00:58,035 --> 01:00:59,535
a, a state where it'd work again.

941
01:01:01,621 --> 01:01:02,911
Kent, you're always breaking stuff

942
01:01:04,077 --> 01:01:04,817
I am.

943
01:01:05,947 --> 01:01:08,577
I mean, that's what, that's
what IT guys do, right?

944
01:01:09,337 --> 01:01:10,887
We break it and then we reboot it.

945
01:01:13,177 --> 01:01:18,567
But so what happened, you, you
have to recover from increasingly

946
01:01:18,587 --> 01:01:23,987
unusual attitudes, and this was
the weirdest one where you're

947
01:01:23,997 --> 01:01:26,937
starting partially upside down.

948
01:01:27,007 --> 01:01:31,667
You're at 120 degrees of
bank, and you have to recover.

949
01:01:32,617 --> 01:01:39,537
So, you know, I was in 120-degree
left bank, so what do I do?

950
01:01:40,407 --> 01:01:41,547
Move the stick to the right.

951
01:01:42,757 --> 01:01:49,697
Well, airplane starts rolling back to
towards level, and I neutralize the

952
01:01:49,697 --> 01:01:53,887
stick, and it just keeps rolling, and I
start going to the left with the stick,

953
01:01:53,887 --> 01:01:55,527
and it just keeps rolling to the right.

954
01:01:57,427 --> 01:02:00,367
Didn't seem like I had any
control of it whatsoever.

955
01:02:01,007 --> 01:02:05,937
And when it got to about 120 degrees
to the right, then it finally

956
01:02:05,937 --> 01:02:09,447
started rolling back toward level,
and it just, it had this repeated

957
01:02:09,467 --> 01:02:15,387
oscillation between about 120-degree
left bank and 120-degree right bank.

958
01:02:16,197 --> 01:02:18,147
so when I started

959
01:02:18,298 --> 01:02:19,908
altitude, speed,

960
01:02:20,879 --> 01:02:23,959
I have a theory, but I'll
get to that in a minute.

961
01:02:24,076 --> 01:02:24,466
Okay.

962
01:02:24,639 --> 01:02:30,539
so at first, like I said, I was, I
was putting the stick toward where

963
01:02:30,539 --> 01:02:35,199
it needed to go for level flight,
and then when it got to level, I

964
01:02:35,199 --> 01:02:39,619
was, you know, tr- neutralizing, and
then when it went to the other side,

965
01:02:39,629 --> 01:02:42,079
then I would go opposite the roll.

966
01:02:43,389 --> 01:02:47,299
Eventually, I went, "Okay, this thing
isn't recovering that way, so I need to

967
01:02:47,299 --> 01:02:54,339
get farther ahead of it." And so then
when I got to one side, let's say to

968
01:02:54,339 --> 01:03:00,239
the left, I would actually… Well, so
as soon as it started rolling to the

969
01:03:00,239 --> 01:03:05,509
right, even though I was already at
120-degree left bank, I went full left

970
01:03:05,539 --> 01:03:09,959
stick, and it would still bank all the
way through level back to the other side.

971
01:03:11,269 --> 01:03:16,849
And so as far ahead of it as I could
get, I still never got control of it.

972
01:03:17,459 --> 01:03:24,409
now I'd be interested in hearing from
any Airbus pilots out there if this

973
01:03:24,409 --> 01:03:29,779
was just a quirk of how the Airbus
flight control system works or, you

974
01:03:29,779 --> 01:03:31,249
know, what their theory might be.

975
01:03:32,359 --> 01:03:37,489
If I were to say, you know, if this were
to have happened in a 737 or something

976
01:03:37,489 --> 01:03:43,679
else that doesn't have the, the crazy
fly-by-wire system that, Airbus has, where

977
01:03:43,679 --> 01:03:47,779
the computer is, a higher priority than
the pilot, I might have thought, "Okay,

978
01:03:48,739 --> 01:03:55,099
maybe what's happening is that by putting
in that, left aileron input or whatever-"

979
01:03:57,383 --> 01:04:05,103
my right aileron is going down and
potentially becoming stalled, and that's

980
01:04:05,103 --> 01:04:07,203
why it's going the other way on me.

981
01:04:07,993 --> 01:04:12,283
that's really the only theory I had
that, made any aerodynamic sense.

982
01:04:12,894 --> 01:04:13,354
Right

983
01:04:13,613 --> 01:04:17,663
but yeah, like I said, the, the Airbus
flight control system is another

984
01:04:17,663 --> 01:04:22,053
variable that I just don't know
enough about to be able to say, "Well,

985
01:04:22,113 --> 01:04:27,653
here's what was actually happening."
But yeah, after several oscillations

986
01:04:28,383 --> 01:04:33,013
both directions to upside down
like that, yeah, the sim just went,

987
01:04:33,093 --> 01:04:34,633
"Uh-uh, we're not doing this anymore."

988
01:04:39,844 --> 01:04:40,154
Yeah.

989
01:04:40,934 --> 01:04:42,894
it was, it had to be
pretty fun though, right?

990
01:04:43,004 --> 01:04:43,574
It was a pretty fun

991
01:04:43,931 --> 01:04:44,381
Oh yeah,

992
01:04:44,424 --> 01:04:47,514
do UPRT in a big jet like that.

993
01:04:48,401 --> 01:04:49,711
Yeah, for sure

994
01:04:51,438 --> 01:04:54,018
So, what else about the
Sim stood out to you?

995
01:04:54,630 --> 01:04:59,770
Well, with, with the Airbus, a lot of it
was just how automated everything was.

996
01:05:00,290 --> 01:05:05,150
you know, you pretty much,
there's a, a certain detent

997
01:05:05,180 --> 01:05:06,970
that you went to on takeoff.

998
01:05:07,390 --> 01:05:09,890
It's the, the second one
from all the way forward.

999
01:05:10,400 --> 01:05:11,480
it's called flex.

1000
01:05:12,270 --> 01:05:15,230
and you push the throttles into
that for takeoff, and I believe we

1001
01:05:15,230 --> 01:05:17,760
pulled them back, or maybe we didn't.

1002
01:05:18,470 --> 01:05:22,350
we may have pulled them back one detent
into climb and then just left it there.

1003
01:05:22,350 --> 01:05:27,350
But really, the, the auto
throttles do everything.

1004
01:05:27,950 --> 01:05:33,610
and so you don't touch the throttles again
until it's time to chop 'em at landing.

1005
01:05:34,800 --> 01:05:36,720
so that was, that was a little bit weird.

1006
01:05:36,730 --> 01:05:40,310
But, you know, then getting into
this Airbus thing where it's just

1007
01:05:40,360 --> 01:05:43,560
like you don't touch anything
until you're about to land, that

1008
01:05:43,560 --> 01:05:44,880
was, that was a little bit weird.

1009
01:05:45,879 --> 01:05:46,239
Yeah.

1010
01:05:46,719 --> 01:05:46,919
Hmm

1011
01:05:49,035 --> 01:05:49,665
Interesting.

1012
01:05:49,985 --> 01:05:53,985
Yeah, that hands-off, flying though
in certain circumstances is what

1013
01:05:53,985 --> 01:05:57,865
gets pilots into trouble, to get
you into an unusual attitude or

1014
01:05:57,865 --> 01:05:59,735
a, a stall or something like that.

1015
01:05:59,745 --> 01:06:01,695
So, yeah, interesting.

1016
01:06:02,685 --> 01:06:03,115
All right.

1017
01:06:04,565 --> 01:06:07,375
So, remind me, was it six hours of sim?

1018
01:06:09,570 --> 01:06:10,900
10 hours total of sim.

1019
01:06:10,987 --> 01:06:12,367
hours of SIM, that's right.

1020
01:06:12,760 --> 01:06:16,120
So yeah, six hours of stall
and upset recovery, icing and

1021
01:06:16,120 --> 01:06:19,010
thunderstorms, and then four
hours of navigation and automation

1022
01:06:19,277 --> 01:06:24,037
Y- and your sim training, was that
10 hours, you know, five in each seat

1023
01:06:25,542 --> 01:06:26,082
Yes.

1024
01:06:26,542 --> 01:06:26,872
Yep

1025
01:06:26,897 --> 01:06:27,267
role?

1026
01:06:27,317 --> 01:06:27,627
Yeah.

1027
01:06:27,667 --> 01:06:28,087
Okay.

1028
01:06:29,067 --> 01:06:29,237
All right

1029
01:06:29,436 --> 01:06:33,556
so you basically both go through
everything in the left seat, but

1030
01:06:33,556 --> 01:06:35,596
you have a sim partner as well.

1031
01:06:35,606 --> 01:06:38,816
So, you know, if it says two
hours of training on something,

1032
01:06:38,816 --> 01:06:41,666
you're doing one hour in the left
seat, one hour in the right seat

1033
01:06:42,015 --> 01:06:42,945
All right, cool.

1034
01:06:43,595 --> 01:06:50,725
So, Tell me, you know, something you
did in the sim, that you, besides

1035
01:06:50,725 --> 01:06:54,855
that, 120-degree bank, that is
something that you just wouldn't be

1036
01:06:54,855 --> 01:06:58,295
able to do, in a, in a real aircraft.

1037
01:06:58,295 --> 01:07:01,735
I think you did some, some stall
recoveries or something like that, right?

1038
01:07:02,981 --> 01:07:06,081
Yeah, we talked about the, the
high altitude stall recovery

1039
01:07:06,081 --> 01:07:07,301
a little bit earlier and,

1040
01:07:07,641 --> 01:07:08,061
Yeah

1041
01:07:08,201 --> 01:07:10,621
can't power out of it,
so that was one thing.

1042
01:07:10,991 --> 01:07:12,811
And you could do that in an airplane.

1043
01:07:12,811 --> 01:07:14,441
There's, there's a lot of sky up there.

1044
01:07:14,441 --> 01:07:17,001
You would just have to get
a, a clearance to do it.

1045
01:07:17,011 --> 01:07:23,231
But, you know, jets are expensive, and so,
most people aren't gonna pay you to do a

1046
01:07:23,231 --> 01:07:28,031
stall recovery at altitude so that kind of
stuff is always gonna be done in the sim.

1047
01:07:28,031 --> 01:07:33,041
But then the stuff that really has to be
done in the sim, you know, they had, the

1048
01:07:33,691 --> 01:07:37,021
ground proximity escape maneuver and,

1049
01:07:37,155 --> 01:07:37,535
Mm-hmm

1050
01:07:38,221 --> 01:07:41,051
wind shear escape maneuvers
and stuff like that.

1051
01:07:41,541 --> 01:07:45,521
and of course then, you know, there are
plenty of other things that are not really

1052
01:07:45,521 --> 01:07:50,711
in the ATP CTP course that are more in the
type rating course that would be things

1053
01:07:50,711 --> 01:07:55,911
that you don't really do in an airplane,
like cutting your engine at V1 and, and

1054
01:07:56,215 --> 01:07:56,425
Mm-hmm.

1055
01:07:56,491 --> 01:07:57,921
all that sort of thing, so

1056
01:07:59,012 --> 01:08:03,312
There's some value to training in
airplanes, but you can do a lot

1057
01:08:03,312 --> 01:08:06,352
of things in a sim that you would
never do in an actual airplane

1058
01:08:07,032 --> 01:08:07,342
Yeah.

1059
01:08:08,102 --> 01:08:08,462
All right.

1060
01:08:09,592 --> 01:08:14,572
Well, you know, overall, let's
take it a little higher level.

1061
01:08:15,242 --> 01:08:20,392
know, as we talked about earlier, this
started with the, that Colgan Air crash.

1062
01:08:21,842 --> 01:08:28,662
In your opinion, after having gone
through it, do you think the ATP/CTP makes

1063
01:08:28,882 --> 01:08:33,892
airline and business aviation safer, or
is this more of a compliance exercise?

1064
01:08:35,710 --> 01:08:41,500
Well, I think some of it depends on
whether you get a good instructor, and I

1065
01:08:41,500 --> 01:08:43,360
was lucky enough to get a good instructor.

1066
01:08:43,370 --> 01:08:46,650
I'm, I'm glad I got a good instructor
rather than someone who just

1067
01:08:46,660 --> 01:08:48,170
clicked play on YouTube videos.

1068
01:08:48,700 --> 01:08:52,170
And don't get me wrong, we
watched plenty of videos.

1069
01:08:52,170 --> 01:08:55,080
There, there's, there's actually
some good stuff out there.

1070
01:08:55,140 --> 01:08:59,440
in fact, I kind of was trying to take
notes as to what some of the videos

1071
01:08:59,450 --> 01:09:05,230
were that we saw, and they used stuff
that was on, you know, Nat Geo TV.

1072
01:09:05,650 --> 01:09:10,740
they actually even had-- Well, they had
Captain Joe on YouTube, and Bold Method,

1073
01:09:10,800 --> 01:09:14,960
and, Smithsonian Channel, Mentor Pilot.

1074
01:09:15,150 --> 01:09:19,010
you know, so they used videos from
a, a number of different sources.

1075
01:09:19,580 --> 01:09:20,020
All right.

1076
01:09:20,380 --> 01:09:21,170
Well, cool.

1077
01:09:21,260 --> 01:09:26,450
so then you, you feel like there's, as
long as you get the right instructor, you

1078
01:09:26,450 --> 01:09:27,850
feel like there's good value there, huh?

1079
01:09:28,763 --> 01:09:29,093
Yeah.

1080
01:09:29,093 --> 01:09:31,793
And, you know, it, it
depends on you as well.

1081
01:09:32,073 --> 01:09:35,383
You know, if you go into it with the
attitude of, "Well, this is just a

1082
01:09:35,383 --> 01:09:38,743
box to check and this whole thing
is stupid, and it's Congress's fault

1083
01:09:38,743 --> 01:09:43,013
we have to do this", you're not
necessarily gonna get anything out of it.

1084
01:09:43,103 --> 01:09:48,043
you know, you really do have to
think about all these accidents

1085
01:09:48,043 --> 01:09:52,573
that they're telling you about and
how it relates to your own flying.

1086
01:09:52,763 --> 01:09:56,873
and that's where having worn that
director of safety hat, I think,

1087
01:09:56,873 --> 01:10:02,033
helped me out a fair bit as well,
because in the course of, doing that

1088
01:10:02,043 --> 01:10:06,313
job, I kind of figured out that, you
know, everything is human factors.

1089
01:10:06,793 --> 01:10:14,833
and it's real easy to read an NTSB
report or watch a video about an airline

1090
01:10:14,833 --> 01:10:18,563
crash and say, "That's just stupid.

1091
01:10:18,563 --> 01:10:19,593
I would never do that."

1092
01:10:20,234 --> 01:10:20,864
Right.

1093
01:10:21,123 --> 01:10:27,013
I can tell you, not a single one of those
pilots went to work that day and said,

1094
01:10:27,183 --> 01:10:31,233
"I'm gonna crash an airplane. I'm gonna
do something dumb and crash an airplane."

1095
01:10:32,036 --> 01:10:32,366
Yep.

1096
01:10:32,786 --> 01:10:33,046
Yep

1097
01:10:33,153 --> 01:10:37,373
you know, one of the quotes that I
just saw you highlighting there, and

1098
01:10:37,373 --> 01:10:41,943
this, this came from Captain Sigmund,
who taught that class, the, He said,

1099
01:10:42,373 --> 01:10:50,743
"You never know on which flight your
career will be judged So are you gonna

1100
01:10:50,743 --> 01:10:56,813
be Sully or are you gonna be somebody
who made a stupid mistake and crashed?

1101
01:10:57,453 --> 01:10:58,773
and that's all up to

1102
01:10:58,810 --> 01:11:00,390
How you operate every day.

1103
01:11:00,400 --> 01:11:01,080
It's about attitude.

1104
01:11:01,360 --> 01:11:06,350
Just showing up for this class with the
right attitude, it's kind of like showing

1105
01:11:06,350 --> 01:11:08,500
up to fly with the right attitude as well.

1106
01:11:08,530 --> 01:11:09,770
what can I learn from it?

1107
01:11:09,790 --> 01:11:15,600
Not, "Oh, geez, I have to check this box."
but one of the things that I, I kind of

1108
01:11:15,680 --> 01:11:22,460
learned as a director of safety is that
the NTSB kind of stops short of the true

1109
01:11:22,480 --> 01:11:24,560
cause of an accident in a lot of cases.

1110
01:11:25,250 --> 01:11:30,060
sometimes they catch it, but there are
an awful lot of accidents where it's

1111
01:11:30,060 --> 01:11:31,790
just blamed on pilot error, right?

1112
01:11:32,615 --> 01:11:32,795
Yeah.

1113
01:11:33,270 --> 01:11:39,300
But when you start doing root cause
analysis, it's more, you know,

1114
01:11:39,300 --> 01:11:43,730
you, you keep asking why until
you get to the end of the line.

1115
01:11:44,630 --> 01:11:49,500
And so it's-- you have to ask, "Okay,
why did that pilot make that error?

1116
01:11:50,320 --> 01:11:54,130
Was it because they had a bad attitude
that day because of something else

1117
01:11:54,130 --> 01:11:55,720
that was going on in their life?

1118
01:11:56,130 --> 01:11:58,570
was it because they
weren't properly trained?

1119
01:11:59,020 --> 01:12:02,700
was it because there was a conflict
between the two crew members or a

1120
01:12:02,700 --> 01:12:09,440
communication issue or something like
that?" so you really have to come at

1121
01:12:09,440 --> 01:12:13,930
every flight and every training event
with the right attitude and, and see what

1122
01:12:13,930 --> 01:12:19,230
you can get from it as opposed to just,
"Well, I'm just gonna get through this

1123
01:12:19,995 --> 01:12:20,335
Yeah.

1124
01:12:21,005 --> 01:12:21,305
Yeah.

1125
01:12:21,315 --> 01:12:26,155
A of it has to do with what's going
on in between the pilot's ears, right?

1126
01:12:27,272 --> 01:12:27,612
Yep.

1127
01:12:27,715 --> 01:12:28,495
the headwor- the

1128
01:12:28,552 --> 01:12:33,162
The most unreliable part of any airplane
is the nut between the yoke and the seat

1129
01:12:34,355 --> 01:12:34,765
Yep.

1130
01:12:37,195 --> 01:12:37,705
Yep.

1131
01:12:38,965 --> 01:12:39,645
Excellent.

1132
01:12:39,755 --> 01:12:42,365
All right, well, one
last question for you.

1133
01:12:42,975 --> 01:12:49,165
Overall, know, take a, a young 200-hour
pilot, what would you want him or her

1134
01:12:49,165 --> 01:12:56,395
to know what's coming up in their,
later in their career about ATP, CTP?

1135
01:12:56,395 --> 01:13:01,745
Is there something in general or some
concepts that, you know, you wish

1136
01:13:01,745 --> 01:13:04,705
you had known when you were younger
that had you in the right direction?

1137
01:13:07,484 --> 01:13:13,774
I would say that one of the most important
things is that, you know, yeah, you

1138
01:13:13,794 --> 01:13:19,444
might be just working on your private,
you might be a CFI who's bouncing around

1139
01:13:19,444 --> 01:13:21,154
the pattern in the right seat of a 172,

1140
01:13:23,404 --> 01:13:29,004
but your attitude and the
way you do things matters.

1141
01:13:29,374 --> 01:13:33,074
You're developing habits that entire time.

1142
01:13:34,384 --> 01:13:36,404
Do the right thing.

1143
01:13:37,574 --> 01:13:41,484
You can't say, "Well, this
is good enough for a 172.

1144
01:13:41,764 --> 01:13:47,424
I don't need to worry about being any
better than this yet." you know, having

1145
01:13:47,674 --> 01:13:53,464
good checklist discipline, sticking
to your SOPs, learning your flows and

1146
01:13:53,464 --> 01:13:58,074
your memory items, all that stuff, as
well as just the, the attitude that

1147
01:13:58,084 --> 01:14:03,944
you bring into the cockpit every day,
all of that matters because, like I

1148
01:14:03,944 --> 01:14:09,774
said, you're developing habits, and
it'll be easier for you in the future

1149
01:14:09,994 --> 01:14:12,894
if you do the right things right now

1150
01:14:14,688 --> 01:14:15,568
I love that.

1151
01:14:15,878 --> 01:14:16,508
I love that.

1152
01:14:16,568 --> 01:14:16,928
Yep.

1153
01:14:17,318 --> 01:14:20,738
Always be thinking that you're building
the foundation for the future, and

1154
01:14:22,298 --> 01:14:26,278
okay is not good enough when we're
talking about something with these

1155
01:14:26,278 --> 01:14:27,838
ki- types of consequences, right?

1156
01:14:28,907 --> 01:14:29,317
Yeah.

1157
01:14:30,017 --> 01:14:32,927
And, you know, I'm not
saying you can't have fun.

1158
01:14:34,187 --> 01:14:34,967
Far from it.

1159
01:14:35,707 --> 01:14:40,547
But if you're gonna have fun, A, you still
wanna be safe when you're having fun.

1160
01:14:41,797 --> 01:14:45,957
But think about the kind of
fun you really wanna have.

1161
01:14:46,737 --> 01:14:49,687
There are so many things
that are fun in aviation.

1162
01:14:50,427 --> 01:14:54,407
You don't need to go and bust a
whole bunch of regulations, you know.

1163
01:14:55,320 --> 01:14:55,570
Yeah.

1164
01:14:55,857 --> 01:14:59,497
Let's say you think it's gonna be fun
to go and buzz your buddy's house.

1165
01:15:00,357 --> 01:15:03,127
Well, a lot of people
crash and die doing that.

1166
01:15:03,927 --> 01:15:08,527
there's-- Things are very, very different
when you're close to the ground, and the

1167
01:15:08,527 --> 01:15:12,477
FAA doesn't require you to be trained
on those things because they don't want

1168
01:15:12,477 --> 01:15:14,157
you doing that stuff in the first place.

1169
01:15:14,907 --> 01:15:20,357
so always think about what the
consequences are for whatever action

1170
01:15:20,357 --> 01:15:25,777
you happen to take, because if you're
gonna be doing this for a career, you can

1171
01:15:25,787 --> 01:15:32,107
derail your career long before it ever
gets started if you do the wrong things

1172
01:15:32,479 --> 01:15:32,579
I

1173
01:15:32,644 --> 01:15:34,814
think about what you're doing.

1174
01:15:35,994 --> 01:15:44,904
Think about, okay, if I'm gonna do X,
Y, or Z fun thing that I wanna do, fun

1175
01:15:44,904 --> 01:15:50,424
doesn't necessarily mean risky, but a
lot of things that are fun are risky.

1176
01:15:50,424 --> 01:15:54,384
So consider what you might not know.

1177
01:15:54,584 --> 01:15:59,234
Consider how, you know, consider
what extra risks you are taking

1178
01:15:59,234 --> 01:16:02,354
on, how to mitigate those risks.

1179
01:16:02,994 --> 01:16:04,764
There are ways to have fun safely.

1180
01:16:05,494 --> 01:16:12,784
so I don't want people to think I'm,
I'm just a, you know, square fly in

1181
01:16:12,784 --> 01:16:15,034
the box kinda person all the time.

1182
01:16:15,084 --> 01:16:18,944
I like to have fun as well, but you
gotta have fun the right ways to

1183
01:16:18,944 --> 01:16:24,414
keep yourself safe, to keep yourself
within the regulations, because having

1184
01:16:24,414 --> 01:16:30,964
an accident or a violation on your
record is gonna make things so much

1185
01:16:30,964 --> 01:16:32,964
more difficult for you in the future

1186
01:16:35,253 --> 01:16:35,803
right, Kent.

1187
01:16:35,813 --> 01:16:37,923
Well, thanks for taking us through this.

1188
01:16:38,383 --> 01:16:41,093
that was really cool to
get that inside look.

1189
01:16:41,653 --> 01:16:46,113
I wanna stress that AT-CTP is not
just a study course for a written

1190
01:16:46,113 --> 01:16:50,173
exam, it's training, simulator time.

1191
01:16:52,133 --> 01:16:55,043
you- you're really getting into
things that hopefully will save

1192
01:16:55,043 --> 01:16:56,973
lives and hopefully have saved lives.

1193
01:16:58,013 --> 01:16:59,033
I agree with you.

1194
01:16:59,383 --> 01:17:04,973
I think it can be really fun to f- to
fly precisely, develop and follow SOPs.

1195
01:17:05,473 --> 01:17:06,583
I, I couldn't agree with you more.

1196
01:17:06,593 --> 01:17:09,413
There's, there's fun in
that challenge, right?

1197
01:17:09,983 --> 01:17:13,953
and, there's also fun types of flying we
can do where we can get special training.

1198
01:17:14,343 --> 01:17:15,203
I just-- I didn't

1199
01:17:15,313 --> 01:17:15,713
Yeah

1200
01:17:15,803 --> 01:17:16,103
Kent.

1201
01:17:16,473 --> 01:17:21,163
I just, landed an airplane for the f-
first time on water a couple of weeks ago.

1202
01:17:22,053 --> 01:17:22,483
And

1203
01:17:22,819 --> 01:17:23,249
Awesome

1204
01:17:23,443 --> 01:17:28,533
in, in the right situation and, with
the right training, you know, the right

1205
01:17:28,533 --> 01:17:32,943
person there kinda guiding you, we push
those corners of the envelope like we've

1206
01:17:32,953 --> 01:17:37,723
talked about before, one corner at a
time, and that's really, really fun.

1207
01:17:38,073 --> 01:17:42,663
Lots of fun to be had, without
taking risks that aren't necessary.

1208
01:17:43,023 --> 01:17:44,243
So I like that.

1209
01:17:44,301 --> 01:17:44,711
Yeah.

1210
01:17:45,601 --> 01:17:48,651
You know, if you wanna turn an airplane
upside down, it's a whole lot more

1211
01:17:48,651 --> 01:17:52,721
fun if you do it in an airplane
that's meant to be turned upside down.

1212
01:17:53,621 --> 01:17:58,441
you know, flying an Extra that's got a
roll rate of 400 degrees per second and

1213
01:17:58,441 --> 01:18:03,651
turning that upside down is gonna be
way more fun than trying to turn over a

1214
01:18:03,821 --> 01:18:09,111
trainer Cessna or Piper, and you won't
have to live with the guilt of, you know,

1215
01:18:09,121 --> 01:18:14,261
you performed aerobatic maneuvers in this
airplane, and then the wings fell off and

1216
01:18:14,271 --> 01:18:16,231
you killed a couple people by accident.

1217
01:18:16,983 --> 01:18:17,253
Yep

1218
01:18:17,661 --> 01:18:20,191
So yeah, go turn an airplane upside down.

1219
01:18:20,631 --> 01:18:23,971
Just do it at the right time and
place and in the right airplane.

1220
01:18:24,571 --> 01:18:27,701
like I said, there's a, there's
a ton of fun to be had out

1221
01:18:27,701 --> 01:18:29,411
there, as you just found out.

1222
01:18:29,411 --> 01:18:32,001
The, the seaplanes are an
awful lot of fun as well

1223
01:18:32,835 --> 01:18:33,255
Yeah.

1224
01:18:33,485 --> 01:18:34,275
Yeah, for sure.

1225
01:18:35,405 --> 01:18:38,005
so, so yeah, I, I couldn't agree more.

1226
01:18:38,015 --> 01:18:43,255
There's consequences that we're
doing, and, you know, taking

1227
01:18:43,255 --> 01:18:44,495
it seriously is important.

1228
01:18:45,225 --> 01:18:50,385
every pilot who goes through this ATP
CTP, and there's a lot, you know, carries

1229
01:18:50,575 --> 01:18:56,605
with them the learnings of and thousands
of people who died to give us lessons,

1230
01:18:56,615 --> 01:18:58,925
so it's important to take it seriously.

1231
01:18:59,675 --> 01:19:04,165
All right, so if today's episode got you
thinking or got you fired up, or you've

1232
01:19:04,165 --> 01:19:08,115
got, ideas that are different from ours,
or you've been through ATP/CTP yourself

1233
01:19:08,135 --> 01:19:10,065
and you wanna share your story, reach out.

1234
01:19:10,455 --> 01:19:11,665
Leave us a voicemail.

1235
01:19:11,715 --> 01:19:15,995
as I explained on the last episode, if
you go to the Contact Us page on the

1236
01:19:15,995 --> 01:19:18,335
website, there's a new way to contact us.

1237
01:19:18,375 --> 01:19:23,755
there's a RadioCheck link there
where you can leave up to 90 seconds.

1238
01:19:24,165 --> 01:19:29,115
make it pithy, make it interesting, and
maybe it'll end up on a future podcast.

1239
01:19:29,525 --> 01:19:32,375
but yeah, take a look at,
ways to contact us there.

1240
01:19:32,375 --> 01:19:33,485
We wanna hear about it.

1241
01:19:33,505 --> 01:19:35,095
That's one of the reasons we're here.

1242
01:19:35,895 --> 01:19:36,515
Now, Bill,

1243
01:19:36,574 --> 01:19:37,384
gonna say something, Kent?

1244
01:19:37,715 --> 01:19:42,925
last, last thing before we go, I think
we need to leave that quote that I have

1245
01:19:42,925 --> 01:19:45,755
highlighted right now as our parting line

1246
01:19:45,986 --> 01:19:46,296
All right

1247
01:19:46,379 --> 01:19:50,499
I, it was, it was, funny and useful.

1248
01:19:50,899 --> 01:19:55,989
but one of the things that this retired
captain said to us was, "When the FAA

1249
01:19:55,989 --> 01:19:59,789
invites you to a barbecue, you'd better
be sure that you're not the pig."

1250
01:20:05,434 --> 01:20:06,244
I love it.

1251
01:20:07,104 --> 01:20:08,774
All right, so that's it everybody.

1252
01:20:08,838 --> 01:20:14,748
wanna leave you with, the fact that,
you know, physics are unforgiving, so

1253
01:20:14,748 --> 01:20:16,838
it's best to know everything you can.

1254
01:20:17,148 --> 01:20:19,858
So we're still flying, we're
still learning, and we're

1255
01:20:19,858 --> 01:20:21,038
trying not to be the pig