I think coaching is often heavily sold because I think the

coaching federation have given this model and they've given this message.

And I don't really feel that anyone's done the same for mentoring.

And coaching is great for the aspect of finding what you want

to do and asking great questions.

But I also think mentoring has its place.

Someone who's been there, done it.

The edge a mentor has over a coach is where someone has done something

that you want to do, and they know what you don't even know.

Coaching can bring out if you have the answers within you.

And sometimes in mentorship, You don't know the mistakes you're going to make.

And it takes someone who's already been through it to set the context

and prepare you for those things.

So I'm looking, here and the amount of experience that I

know each of your stories, or I know a snapshot of your stories.

And it can be difficult probably for you that you're not going to say everything.

I don't have to be humble about other people, so I'd

like to just go through first.

We're all in LinkedIn.

We post stuff and it's a snapshot of what we know and of what we post, most people

who read it are only, they're only going to take in 10, 20, 30 percent and so

they don't know the scope of each of you.

I know that you've been on journeys, I know that they've been tough, I know

that you've failed, and I know you've overcome obstacles, and I know that each

of you has been on a path that where you've achieved something, where many

other people want to come behind you.

First of all, I'd like to highlight one by one, just what those achievements were.

Matthew, we're gonna, we're gonna start with you if that's okay.

Now just for anyone listening in who doesn't know anything about Matthew,

I'm just gonna tell you what I know is starting out 23, knowing almost no, I know

you've been in the business a few years and you had some ideas, but 23 to build a

business that can build up to a 72 outlet business, to be able to manage that, to

be able to create the culture consciously, to be able to mentor and develop so many

people, to coach to be in business is like 45 years or something, wasn't it?

It's going on that.

Yes, it is.

I see you post a lot, but I don't see you really sell the magnitude

of the journey that you've been on.

And I'm guessing that there's been a ton of mistakes.

There's been so many things that you've learned.

And all of that is wrapped up available to someone in the role of a mentor.

Yeah I guess that's the crux of it is that I've done this for a long

time, and I think in another post in a post, I had said that I'd Been involved

with developing hundreds of managers and managers at all different levels and all

shapes and sizes and colors and flavors.

And I have a lot of experience at it and how I got to be where I am now

on LinkedIn was my brother, because I, let's just back up quickly.

For the most part.

When I look back on it, a lot of that was mentoring.

It's what we now call mentoring.

I don't think we called it mentoring then.

We just called it what you did to get people into the job, right?

And so I never thought of it as mentoring at the time.

It's just one of those things you did to make everything work.

Fast forward to a couple of years ago and my brother, so I'm retired.

And my brother said, you have all this, and I'm a little bored now because

I've been retired for a while and I'm looking to do something and and get

plugged in somehow, but not too much.

And my brother said, all those years of experience, all those things

you've done they have value to people.

Now, my brother is 10 years younger than me and he works in the IT field and

everyone's 10 years younger than him.

And he said, there's, actually what he said was people pay big money

for that stuff, for, I think his term was people paid big money for

an old guy, And it never occurred to me that all that did have value.

Now I had, I've always had a couple of people here and there that I've kept

up with and that I've continued to mentor, but not in any formal sense.

So that's how I ended up here.

And and he was right.

I look back on it.

I do have a lot of experience.

I do have a lot of stories.

I do have a lot of problems and issues and successes.

And I've been through it all.

I've been through the mill, over and over again.

And all that really does have some value.

And I had never really thought of it that way, to be honest with you.

So here I am doing it and I have, I have four slots.

I don't want to, I'm not here to make, A fortune to start another damn business.

And, I have four slots, I have two I'm using now and I just want to keep a

steady, even pace that I can approach it the way I want to approach it that

value to myself and the other person.

So is that kind of what you're looking for?

Yeah.

Yeah,

basically.

Is there anything we've missed that I should have asked

that I don't, maybe don't know?

I don't think so.

It's pretty straightforward.

I, I've been managing people since I was 18.

And here I am now at an age, I won't say but it's second nature to me,

it's just, it's what I, it's what I do, it's just second nature to me.

Okay.

Thank you.

Waldemar, apparently all the money goes to the old guys, so although you

are much younger you are someone who's been on the fast track to success and

you've done it in a corporate sense.

You've gone to be managing director at 30, wasn't it?

And that's working right up from shop floor all the way to becoming a managing

director of a multinational company.

You've managed people, you've managed people who were significantly

generationally older than you.

You've had your place at the board table.

You've had in directorship roles, you've been in lead teams,

started teams as well, I believe.

And so basically, someone wants to do in the corporate world

is you've pretty much done it.

And decided now that what you want to focus on is in your coaching.

And I don't know if you specifically call it mentoring, but for me,

it is mentoring and coaching.

Yeah.

You've posted about the challenges that you faced and your single mindedness

in reaching that position and your clarity and how you, and you also developed

from your insights, a, your own kind of methodology and philosophy that guides

the, what you call the new generation of leadership or new, which is not

necessarily an age thing, but a stylistic.

So am I right there?

Is there anything I've missed?

Perfectly.

Your summary, I couldn't say it better.

Thanks Rob.

Yeah.

I'm sure you could, but the you're all humble.

Sorry, did you want to say something Matthew?

Yeah.

I just said I'm not humble.

Okay.

AK.

Now I'm not sure if you actually are available for mentorship or or

if it's just through your post, but I know you are slightly different.

Equally, you have an inspiring story of someone who's trained in a

profession, someone who's spent years devoted to becoming qualified and a

proficient and a good practitioner in what you do, which then with the laws

of immigration was cut off to you.

And you've literally had to start again find another career, just find an entry

point work yourself up and find a new career and then develop proficiency.

So you've basically done it twice in that you've rated one career.

And then you create a second career and what I can tell my impression

of you was just so much positivity.

So you are a great nurturer of people, but also a connector and a networker.

So you also have tremendous lessons in advancing your career.

Again, have I missed anything?

Oh

my God, you're so good Rob.

You're so good at this.

I was lucky that I've been able to have in depth conversations

with all of you, and I've been learning lessons from all of you,

Whilst you were saying this I just realized how true it is that when I

got the right qualification at the right age in my hand, I had no mentor back then.

But it was when I was struggling when I came here that I had a mentor to help me.

So that's when I realized, yes, I do have two qualifications now,

one with a mentor, one without.

Okay.

So that's really interesting because that's a great segue into the next

step is what I'd like to know.

And we'll start with you, AK.

What I'd like to know is what role did mentorship have in your development?

How did it shortcut your journey?

And where do you wish that you would have had a mentor?

So that's a perfect segue there, AK.

If you can, so you said that you did one qualification with a mentor

and one without and what was the difference in your experience?

I will only ask three questions to myself to be able to

answer you, Rob, which is, have I become better and more confident?

That's the first one, because I had no confidence when I came here and I

knew that, okay, I cannot practice.

It completely was a disappointment to me.

And I thought, what am I going to do now?

I am 29.

Do I have to study again?

And you know all these thoughts.

Do I have to be a student again?

But what if I have a baby?

Will I be able to study with a baby?

So many thoughts in my mind and I lost confidence when it came to my career.

I took random jobs and those random jobs on my CV were just looking.

It was a puzzle for me, let's be honest.

So for me, three questions when I had my mentor help me to understand my life.

So the first question was I would assess my confidence.

Has that increased?

Yes.

The second question would be, am I progressing towards my goals

faster than I thought I could.

And the third question would be around am I making better decisions?

Because I thought my decision making skill was really poor at that point of time.

What career should I choose for myself?

So when I asked myself these questions, Rob, and I got an answer

to it is when I knew it was because of my mentor who helped me seek

guidance and how well by giving me opportunities in an organization.

Okay.

What are you good at?

And it was obviously me who initiated it.

But it you have to initiate if you want help, you have to ask for help and

and yeah, it's like a guiding light.

It will give you direction, clarity, wisdom.

So I wouldn't call it a quick fix.

Or if it's a long journey and someone would say I could give you another path

to travel but it could still have bumps.

So challenges will be on any path, but I would say a guiding light is

absolutely a whole different phenomena.

It can't be a quick fix or a quick solution.

You can't compare it to that.

It comes with wisdom and, Yes, it like, like Matthew said, it

comes with age so yes that's me.

Okay.

Just one more question on that before we move on is, how

how did you meet your mentor?

Was it a formal mentorship?

Unfortunately, I don't think at least in the organizations I've

been, we don't have mentoring programs, like we have coaching programs.

Like I had two coaches when I was working in an organization and they

came and one was for one of the skills, which was communication.

And the other one was for QA audits.

So basically quality assurance, the calls that you communicate

with your customers and you receive a pass or a fail in an audit.

And then you have a coach coming in and telling you how

to cover these calls, et cetera.

So they had these sessions with coaches, but there was no such

thing as mentoring program.

So yes.

And I don't think there is any such framework available as yet.

So yes, it was me who initiated Jane and others as well.

I have many mentors now because I understood with Jane

that yes, mentorship exists.

Okay, Waldemar, did you have mentors?

And how did they influence you?

And maybe where did you feel the absence of them?

Yeah yes, of course I had mentors and I had actually three

important people, was more people, but it was three important roles that

helped me to really fast track my career and one was certainly coaching.

So this is why I also entered into the coaching space.

We know what coaching does.

We know what it serves for.

Second one was definitely mentorship.

So somebody who really is in that spot, you want to be in certain time of a

certain amount of time and finding first of all, a mentor was not always

easy because as you said before, It's a very present problem actually.

And I've discussed it with one other guy, Azim Khaliq.

We talked about mentorship a few months ago, and we spoke about that.

There is no such a marketplace for mentorship.

So people struggle actually to find, okay, where can I find a mentor when

they are not able to find somebody within their organization, which

is not always the case, of course.

So luckily I had the opportunity to participate to a mentorship program

that my former employer was offering.

And I was mentored by a very senior guy, senior executive from the U.

S.

did a lot of stuff, crazy career.

And he helped me a lot of developing a certain mindset of how to approach things,

but mostly how to approach relationships.

So he taught me a lot and I did a several posts about that, about what are the main

learnings that I've got from mentorship.

And yeah, a few of them are like speak last when you are in a big meeting and

you will be the one who knows most.

And this was the number one learning I got.

I apply it every day.

I apply it.

I applied it for years and it helped me to become successful in what I'm doing.

And this third, actually personal third category that helped me a lot that many

people are not focusing too much, but this came out from the mentorship is a sponsor.

So my mentor told me back then, you need a sponsor, you need somebody who

raises his voice on behalf when they're talking about some serious stuff, when

it goes into the, executive meetings, when they're talking about promotions,

when there's somebody who represents you in those kinds of situations, so that

you can really advance fast your career.

This was a really game changer.

And this is actually something that I'm teaching today to many young talents also

with a company that I'm collaborating with TCO international, we are doing

this young talent program, and there is module about organizational agility,

and we are speaking about mentorship, but we are focusing a lot on sponsorship

and how to find a sponsor, how to, because it's a tricky one, especially

if you're a young professional.

A sponsor helped me a lot in achieving that.

But let me say, to be frank, I would have not known about sponsorship

or about all the other things that helped me to advance my career

very fast without having a mentor.

And You said it before, I'm a young guy, so I'm mentoring younger guys,

because I think mentorship has to do with experience, a lot of experience.

So I'm really grateful what Matthew told before.

And I really shop or some guy who put on the table 45 or years of

experience with the scope of not making the big bucks, even if he

said it, he's worth it definitely, but he's putting his time there.

And this is a great opportunity for younger people.

My mentor was also in a very senior executive role and advanced in his career.

I know that experience is not always age.

Experience is not always time.

So it also depends what have you done in this time.

So how many stuff have you seen and how many shit, sorry, you have gone through.

Okay.

So that's why I'm focusing on younger people.

For me, a mentor is a role model a little bit, a professional role model.

I wanted to always to become a CEO.

So I picked the CEO to be my mentor.

How did you make that?

So that's why I think younger people, when they see me, they

say, okay, this guy's 35 years old.

He made all this career very fast.

He saw a lot of stuff.

I want to do that too.

So they reach out to me and we, we start speaking, think really

mentorship still very underestimated, especially in the corporate world.

There are, as AK said, there are not so much mentorship programs.

Now corporate is focusing a lot on coaching, which is good.

I think coaching should be accessible for everybody in the organization.

But mentorship would be then the next step.

Once you get this self awareness through coaching and you're like,

okay, what's next and I want to do things fast and without too many

mistakes, it's good to make mistakes, but maybe not too many mentorship

can really a game changer there.

Yeah, I agree.

Sponsorship is a great example of something that you just wouldn't know

about until someone tells you about it and otherwise you could be doing the

same things, but no one would know it.

Sponsorship maybe just to add a little This always comes up

among the young people, they think sponsorship has a little bit of

touch of manipulating somebody or like Taking advantage of somebody.

And I think this is not true.

What I used to say is sponsorship is a win.

So ideally, of course, you're giving something back to your sponsor, which

is basically your time, your effort.

And it's not about picking somebody who is very high in the organization

of the hierarchy, and then trying to manipulate this person in order that he

or she promotes you as soon as possible.

So this is obviously not the scope of sponsorship.

It's a really a genuine relationship between two professionals, where the

sponsor is interested in making you grow.

And the the young professional is interested in learning from this

person and giving the best to, to the company and helping also this

person to achieve the best results.

Yeah, I think there's a natural thing that When we tend to look at other people,

it's the fundamental attribution error.

We tend to think we tend to be more suspicious of other people.

Most of us, we're all here because we want to contribute.

Even someone who's had success then wants to help someone else have success.

We all, we want to give and so even though it seems like it's the

mentee that gains, also there's the satisfaction of contribution

that, that the mentor gets as well.

Yeah, I would totally agree with that.

And Waldemar being from a corporate world would know this as well.

Many senior executives or people that are well on the way on

their path of accomplishment.

They genuinely want to help other people.

They've already got the car, the house, the vacation.

They got all the toys.

It's a genuine feeling.

They genuinely do.

And if they find someone that's I don't want to use the word worthy, but someone

who, who's accepting of the role.

This is where sponsorship comes from, right?

You just you find someone that you're going to invest in and you, and

it is a win because for the senior person it's a way to contribute when

they've contributed everything else.

And then for the junior person, the benefit is obvious.

So those people exist and they exist everywhere.

It's not bullshit.

All these highly paid high flying executives aren't

just evil, greedy mothers.

They're all human beings, they are.

So I would totally agree with that.

And it's.

It's like having children, isn't it?

A little bit.

It's a kind of a corporate way, like the basic driver for evolution.

Is we want to reproduce our genetic lineage, but in the same way, I think

people in corporates in business want to feel that they live on and all the

lessons that they have can be shared.

And it's a passing on of the torch.

It's about creating a legacy as well.

Because once you've achieved success, then it becomes about, it's more psychological.

It's about meaning.

It's like David Brooks has a book called The Second Mountain.

Like when you've climbed up the first what then?

Because while you're in life there's always something else to do.

And sometimes it's through other people.

And that's a, to chime in just briefly again that's

the real value of mentorship.

It's not strictly transactional.

It's tapping into the mentor's need for the second mountain, right?

It's they're more than willing to do it.

It makes them feel good.

It makes me feel good to to know you're doing it right.

It's not strictly financial or transactional.

It's just something you just feel after after a long career or whatever

it is you just feel compelled to do.

It's just feels good.

There's no other way to say it,

so how much of a role did mentors have in your business

success and how, and where could you have used them that you didn't?

Enormous, cannot be overstated when I was young.

And of course I have a story, which I won't drag everybody through, but when

I was young, I had my very first real boss rescued me in life and saw something

in me that I didn't know was there.

And just like we were talking a couple of minutes ago, took it onto himself

to build a real human being out of me.

If I can say it any other way, and I did, today we would call him a mentor.

I never thought of them.

Then Waldemar use the term or maybe AK did role model.

I thought of them more as a role model.

Now that I look back.

I see that he was a mentor, but without him.

I can't imagine what would have become of me, quite frankly.

I just can't.

And I was very young at the time.

I was 17, and then Over time, there were other people who I looked

up to and had role models and contributed and not all of them.

Some of them were younger than me.

Some of them were managers that I was developing myself.

Like I should have been the mentor, but it turned out to be them

because I learned so much from them.

It's a two way street, right?

You live a pretty sheltered life if you don't run into these people, right?

You just do.

And and I'm grateful for all of them.

But boy, I'll just mention his name.

Alec Clark, a Scotsman from Glasgow.

Literally, I owe my life to him.

In your journey, were there a place where you really needed

a mentor that didn't have?

Yeah I really needed one then.

I just didn't know I did.

I just didn't know I did.

But since then I'm sure there were occasions where I did, and I'm

sure there were occasions where I should have had one, but I was

arrogant enough to believe I didn't.

In hindsight, I can see places where that was a mistake, right?

But at the time and like I said, I did have them incidentally, but there

was no there was no formality to it.

Is that a good way of saying it?

They just appeared on the scene and and in the rare times I was

smart about it, I accepted it.

And in the less rare times I didn't.

I regret it.

And I regret it.

I regret it.

It would have saved myself a lot of grief.

Myself and those around me,

Not just me.

I think often what stops people from benefiting from mentors, like you say,

they're all around, but it's pride.

Yeah, you don't know, you don't know what you don't know, I

guess is one, but you fall into this especially when you're you're building

a business and you go through some pretty lousy times, but you also

go through some pretty good times.

And when you're going through some pretty good times, you

think your stuff don't stink.

And you can get really arrogant about it.

And in those times you're less likely to look for help.

You're more likely to look for help when things aren't going great.

But really it's when things are going the best is when you should be

looking for help, 'cause now you've got the time and the energy and the

momentum to do it properly, right?

Yeah, if I can add a piece to that, because I have been there, I

was also in certain situations of my life where I was reflecting, so why I

didn't reach out for help, for mentor, for advice, for whatever reasons.

And it actually, it's not necessarily like pride.

I think it's okay, I'm gonna, I'm going to do it on by my own.

So It's a little bit of pride.

Yes.

But it's also a little bit of fear of showing that you're not

capable to do it on your own.

So in my case, it was more like okay, who is on the table?

Who could I ask for help?

Okay.

And.

If I thought about certain situations I pictured three or four people and

I started actually to find reasons why not asking them for help.

And later I was, when I got a bit older.

And then when I got mentor myself and I got the understanding of

why mentorship is so important and what can actually give to you.

I recognize that it was, yeah, it was as most people you have the problem to ask

help to people that you already know and I had very openly speaking, I was not able

to, I was not willing to invest money to mentors or coaches that I didn't know.

So I was like, no, I'm not going to invest money in this because I'm not

convinced if it's going to help me.

On the other side, I had people around me that probably would have mentored

me for free, but there I was afraid to show them the weak side, because when

you are there in this momentum and you're building and you're doing your

stuff and everybody is somehow looking at you as the guy that you figure it

out, you're doing it, you're crushing it, I've always been a humble guy.

Every time I hear you're crushing it.

I was like, no guys, I'm not crushing it at all.

So let's make that clear directly.

But yeah, I think it was you feel somehow this pressure and

you're afraid of asking for help.

And this is very common in people.

Very few people are actually open to ask for help.

And even if you offer help, so you offer help and people need help.

Some will not.

Get it because they will.

I think it's a very common problem that I see in people the willingness

of accepting help of asking for help.

I can second that in.

So I started a business at 20.

And just, it just became insular that you look inside yourself for help and

you have to present a certain image when you're running a little business.

And so it wasn't really probably.

I don't know.

There were people for moments, but not significant.

But I found a lot of mentorship in books, in finding someone who'd done something.

And I would say that was probably the most significant mentors then.

I wanted to say that when Waldemar was speaking about sponsorship

and Matthew added about him not knowing that he actually needed a mentor at one

point of time when he needed the most, most importantly I think for me when

I started my journey with my mentor it, it took me a good two and a half

years to to be able to understand what that relationship gave me in return.

It was not as soon as I started my relationship with her, I didn't even

know she was my mentor or anyone else for that reason, who has mentored me.

Would say it's not until you think that you have given something back in that

relationship as a mentee, the results.

Otherwise until then it only feels your mentor is offering

you solutions, resources, and of course they never spoon feed you.

They just give you help.

They just offer you help and you have to make the most of it.

So they want to see you transform your own life.

What I realized that it's the certain terminologies that we use.

We call it speedy solutions or fixed solution.

It's not really.

To me, it took some time to understand what that relationship has given me back.

And It also makes me think about personal growth and development,

not just professional, that I have achieved through that relationship.

So it's a whole different transformation for me.

And these terminologies wouldn't, I think it takes away that impact of what

this guiding light blesses you with.

Hence, I think mentoring is underrated because of these terminologies and with

self awareness that we all as a community we contribute towards on LinkedIn,

I think we can raise this awareness.

It's basically how we look at it and how we want to present it through

our experiences and that can have a real impact on people is what I feel.

That's an awesome point.

AK especially if you thing that you mentioned before that you weren't

actually aware of being mentored until a certain point of your life,

now, and for me, it was the same and Matthew before spoke about the same.

At a certain point was got the self awareness or was seeking for a mentor.

So if you have now young people and we are able to provide them and

help them with the self awareness.

To explain the benefits and also how to approach mentorship and how

to make it work for both parties.

I think they can really benefit from it and have even faster

results and even better results.

This is actually what I think we all trying to do also through LinkedIn.

And yeah, today also speaking about that.

What I think is that most people, when I speak about mentorship with

younger people I think some are still having a different picture of it.

So they think maybe mentorship comes with a big financial investment or comes

with a big time investment, or yeah, they have no, no idea how to really establish

a good mentor mentee relationship.

And it's actually surprising because my mentor, when first

mentor, I got the guy that I told you before, Jonathan from the U S.

We were speaking once per month for one hour.

That's it.

What is very significant is the period of time you're doing that.

So we were speaking for two years when you said you had

mentoring two and a half years.

So I think it's not about having every week sessions of mentorship

because this won't take you anywhere.

I think if you have a good mentor who is interested in your development

and you have this guy or this person.

Giving you great advice and steering you through the challenges that you

have, and you do it in an effective way, you can easily run one session,

once per month, but do it for one year, do it for two years, and

then look what it has done for you.

So the financial and the time investment can be actually very

low to get massive results.

If you look at your career as a long game and not as a short period of time.

I still agree with you, Waldemar, because when you just

mentioned about the challenges as well.

the struggles and and the fact that you only spoke to your mentor

once a month but how productive it was for me, it felt the same.

I think I'm like you in terms of having that sense of pride to do it

by myself as well to push myself.

Which is very good.

So I think with that element, even I used to approach my mentor, only when

the odds used to stack against me.

So otherwise I would like to give it a try myself.

So I completely agree with what you just said.

Yeah, I think Waldemar, you've you've hit the sweet spot on mentorship.

Just thinking out loud here things like training and coaching, we'll call

training short term, coaching midterm.

Mentorship, real mentorship, effective mentorship is a long game.

It's a long game.

It's not a one and out.

And you need time to build a relationship.

You need time to build trust.

You need time to develop a working shtick and it isn't necessary.

Mentor's not there to solve all your problems.

So being there every week or every day, isn't necessary.

It's just a catch up as you would with a good friend, right?

A good friend who's moved away and you're just catching up and you're just pinging

ideas and, the odd problem on that.

But it's just a really good, strong relationship and good,

strong relationships take time.

You don't need that so much to be trained on something.

It seems to me anyway, coaching is objective based.

We're going to hit this timetable.

You're going to hit these goals.

We're going to reassess.

But there's none of that in mentoring.

It's just a rolling relationship, right?

That's all it is.

And it takes time.

And I guess maybe that's why people struggle with it because

people have trouble getting their head around this long term idea.

It's so much easier to think short term.

Yeah.

But it's very hard to get their head around this,

Oh, what do you mean for years?

I'm going to be dead by then, because everyone's in a hurry,

but that's where the value is.

So Waldemar, I think you nailed the whole thing there.

Now that's so true, Matthew, what you just said, I think, especially

now in the younger generations and that we can open a whole new chapter of

this immediate reward and the immediate reward of, okay, I'm paying now when

we're talking about paid mentorship.

So they're like, okay, what's the return on investment?

And oh no, I can't wait two years to see results.

And it's a tricky, so I think to be there, you really need to understand

mentorship and you perfectly described it.

And you really need to say, okay, I commit to that.

I can commit in my own Long term development.

I'm not doing something that gives me a quick win, skill development

that I can apply tomorrow.

No, if you really say I want to set up for something big, something long term,

then you need to be, then you need to go.

For this.

Yeah.

Mentor.

I have this picture Mentor equal relationship.

You perfectly said it, Matthew.

I think that is that is a key because I'm thinking about it as

we're discussing and I'm thinking when I had the gym there were people,

but they were more consultants.

The gym business was very new in like 1993.

It hadn't really developed.

So I found people and I paid them and like their staff would come in and I

would go and look at all their gyms.

And there were those kind of things, but I think the thing that

was missing that didn't make it so significant was the period of time.

And I think the point that you make about.

Once a month being enough is I've worked with people in lots

of different ways in therapy and coaching and whatever, however it is.

What I found is there's limits to how much people can grow.

You give them ideas, but the pace of growth is determined by their

willingness to grow and to adapt.

And sometimes people are like, hang on, this is too much.

They need time for it to sink in and they need because it's not just about the

knowledge, but it's about the emotional readiness to make changes is about

gathering the confidence about gathering the courage, all of those things.

And sometimes they reach the point where they're just not ready to do it yet.

And sometimes they need enough experience of life in order to relate

to it so that they can understand it.

I can think of lots of times, people will tell me something and I'm like yeah.

But I haven't got the experiential thing.

And then six months later I go, I should do that.

And I'm always doing it with my girlfriend.

And she's I told you that and I go yeah, but I didn't see it because

I had, didn't have the perspective.

So I think you've hit the key that it's about the relationship and

it's about the patience because it's about the long trajectory.

It can be quick, but it is determined by the mentee's readiness to change, I think.

I agree.

Yes.

I think when it comes to value, it's very much immeasurable the value of a mentor

because some people may be having odds stacked up against them for a decade.

Some may be having for a month, some maybe for a few years.

So even that.

The pain points is where the relationship lasts for how long that's where

the vulnerability or authenticity surfaces up of a mentee and how they

present the value of their mentor.

So I think it's a storytelling ability of a mentee or a mentor who

is taking us through that relationship they've had with each other.

For me, it is immeasurable.

Some things are tangible, some are not.

For example, confidence, decision making process or better understanding of my

strengths and weaknesses over the years.

These are non tangible benefits I have gained.

Tangible, yes, if I sit with my mentor and I'm like, okay, what results

have we brought out for each other?

So yeah, I think, yeah.

Overall, it's person to person, their relationship.

Yeah, I agree on that.

And personally, I think that I'm not a big fan that everything has

to be tangible and that you need to address to everything what you do

or not do a return on investment.

Some things just happen and you need something, the most important thing

is that you feel that it's good for you and that it's taking you

in that space where you want to be.

How do you determine that?

It's up to you and it's up to us to decide, okay, this

was useful for me or not.

And it's also perfectly fine to say after period of time.

Okay.

This is it.

Mentor has not to be there a lifetime and mentor is more related

to a period of life who you are in a certain moment of your life.

Maybe in twenties, you are a different person that you are in the

thirties and forties and fifties.

So I think it's But this brings me to a question that I get often, and I really

I had this question in the luggage for this session for you guys is how do you

choose actually the right mentor for you?

Because I get that often.

And of course I have my own opinion, but I would love to hear yours on that too.

So what would you suggest also to people how to choose a mentor?

Look at Waldemar using his mentors trick of I'm going to speak last.

So who's going to be first up?

All right, I'll go first.

Fine.

See, Waldemar's put the zap on all of us now, right?

Nobody wants to go first.

The question is, how do you know a mentor is right for you.

How would you pick one?

So you need now let's forget about it.

Where to search, how to contact everything.

It's just like basic.

I want a mentor.

What is the metrics that you would pick a mentor?

I'm gonna be very squishy about it and say and

I'm not bailing out on you here.

You will know, you will feel it, you will know.

You just you have to talk to people.

You can't choose a mentor over something they wrote or a YouTube they did.

You have to talk to them.

You have to start a relationship and it's just every other

relationship you've had in your life.

You will know now how you define that.

I'll leave that to others.

But every relationship we ever had started that way.

And I hope I'm not bailing on you there, Waldemar, but that's

the way I would approach it.

You have to talk to some people and then you will know.

I will comment that later, Matthew, after I've heard the answers.

Oh, that's right.

Yeah.

Nevermind.

Sorry I asked you.

I think there's one thing that is similar to what Matthew just

said, which is you have to talk.

The next thing that I would do is when I'm talking about seeking or asking for help,

I would see if that person is a little empathetic towards my story, my life.

The moment they show some empathy, I would say that's matching my

value and I would go ahead with it.

So I would always look for a shared value and then I would

share my vision, my goals.

And yeah that's how I would choose my mentor.

For me, I think one of the barriers to having a mentor is they

might not be the same as you, when I want to learn something, I look for

the best person who has figured it out.

Who do I respect?

I respect their knowledge.

Because I've learned that to learn, you need to suspend belief and not

look with judgment, but look and just take it all as if it's true.

And then you let it sink in.

And that's how then you change inside.

So I look for someone who has absolute knowledge of what they're doing.

I look for someone who I respect their character.

Because if I don't trust them, if they're not honest with people, if

they don't act with integrity, that kind of thing, then I can't trust them.

So when I see that you suspend suspend judgment and just take it all in.

And like you say, it takes a while.

I was in a a program a couple of years ago which taught you how to

think differently, but he would ask you questions that it would take

you six months of like confusion.

But you, it gave you something aspirational.

And so he was working from a different context where you thought you had the

answer he would take it up a notch.

So that would be mine.

Someone who knows it well enough to have a different context to you.

That's cool.

Thank you so much for these answers really, because I, now

I will share with you my answer that I usually give to people.

And I'm so happy that Because everything, what you said is like perfectly

resonates with me and my opinion.

And that's why we're here.

We are like minded people, but actually this is and this is not the tactic of

my mentor, but I will pick a little bit of everybody and put it together to it.

To a great answer, but it's actually it's my real opinion.

So I think you Rob, you're perfectly fine.

So when somebody is asking me this question, I usually tell them, look

first for somebody who has a certain knowledge in the field where you are

playing and where you want to be in.

It's different from coaching.

Coaching is a process that can be applied on life, on business on whatever.

In mentorship, we are talking ideally about some shared experience some

common path that we want to pursue, which can be not too common because

I also suggest sometimes to have this portion of diversity because if

somebody had the exact same thing that you're aiming, maybe it's not adding,

a different perspective to what you're thinking in your head and your ideas,

what AK said was very fantastic.

And my opinion is also to have A little bit of the same, I

resonate deeply with people who are having a similar story to mine.

Yeah.

Similar story in terms of like family background raising maybe in the same kind.

So I really try to understand from my mentor also what happened before he became

the person he is today or she's today.

That's so cool.

But finally I have to give matthew most credit to this answer, which I really love

really love because for me, personally, this is also the number one criteria.

So once you have worked through these steps okay, we have the knowledge.

At the end of the day, I think if it's not clicking and you don't have the chemistry

and you don't establish this relationship it won't go anywhere, I think.

So it's really, and I think you feel it.

I think you have this when you come into, and I meant, Plenty of people

on LinkedIn also, when you have never met with this person before, and then

Rob, I had this feeling with you too.

And with you guys as well.

So you're clicking on and you start talking and we shared immediately

a lot of combat sports and these, and we had just this beautiful talk.

It's from the first minute you're like easy to talk with, you are open

to share, there is this mutual trust.

So I think this is so important.

And if you don't have that, you can be the highest skill guy.

And yeah, and I think it should be fair enough from the mentor as well,

because the mentor can also feel that the chemistry is maybe not right.

And it would be not ethical, in my opinion, to go into a relationship

where you want to mentor somebody who you would feel distant to.

Yeah, thank you so much guys for this answer.

So I will take it as a really it's as a huge value for me for, especially

when I speak also to Potential people about mentorship, about clients.

And when I communicate that, especially to young people during training sessions.

So thank you very much.

There's also some research to back that up in that when they studied

therapy, it's not any school of therapy.

That's any more successful.

It's the warmth and the trust that the people have in the therapist.

Oh, yeah.

So it's.

Wow.

Yes.

Doesn't that make sense

though?

Really, doesn't that make sense?

Because I don't want to go off on a tangent here.

It's just another relationship like every other relationship you have

with everybody else in your life and relationships all function the same way.

It's just, a mentor or a therapist or a, a circus trainer that it's

a human relationship and they all have the same basic building blocks.

That feeling you get from a good relationship is the same, no

matter what the title of it is.

That's my opinion anyway.

And so we always think when a title gets applied to it, it

somehow changes the dynamic.

And, sometimes it does because you, Meet a policeman.

You've been going too fast.

It changes the dynamic of it.

But the basic human behavior, what makes a good relationship doesn't change, does it?

No.

So I look at everything that way.

I just look at everything.

I look at it with my managers.

I look at it with, anyone I deal with.

It's a relationship.

The title of it is less important than the teeth of the relationship.

That's something that's long been a bugbear in mind.

You don't need to necessarily, I know that we need to label but

the, I feel that sometimes the labels are unhelpful, that the line

between coach and mentor is blurred.

The line between trainer and mentor can be blurred.

And yeah, in the end it's the relationship that transcends the title of it.

And show you a piece of story because this perfectly applies.

Also of course, in the corporate context.

Back then, when I was in the very young age, we hired a new lady

who was in charge for cleaning the place, which was a cleaning lady.

She was doing a lot of other services.

Like she was taking care of us.

She got hired and I used to finish very late working.

So yeah, it's part of the game.

And so every time when I finished working, she actually came in to clean.

And my office wasn't in, let me say, and at the end of the building.

So she was cleaning at the very last, she didn't knew

that I was the general manager.

She found out after six months time and she, and we occasionally met

because when I then dropped to the kitchen or went to the toilet, I

passed and we chatted and so on.

And in Germany, you have this like very formal way to address, you have to yeah,

I don't know how you say it's Z or do.

So you may it's like you address it with different titles, like Mr.

Zimmer and not Valdemar.

We were very like chatting about everything, and after the six

months she found out from our HR lady and she came to me very and I

was like, what's going on with her?

She was feeling so embarrassed and she was like, I'm sorry, because I

didn't knew that you are the director here and that you are blah, blah.

And and then she started to call me Mr.

And she started to be like very weird.

And I was like, listen, it's changed.

Nothing zero.

It's.

It's still me and you chatting at 6 p.

m.

here.

And this is what really reminded me now, the fact that Matthew said,

it's actually all about relationship.

It's not about labeling people.

It's not about the role, the title and the label.

So yeah, this was a very funny story actually about how this can also

influence, because I think we had been a very cool relationship and

we enjoyed our conversations, even if there was five or 10 minutes.

And I think we wouldn't have enjoyed that if she knew straight

away that I am in that position.

And that's actually a very sad thing if you think about it.

It's really interesting to look at how many relationships are like

thwarted from, how many mentoring relationships are thwarted by the fact

that someone's got a title and someone else feels they can't approach them.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That also ties into what you were talking about when we talked

Waldemar about the new generation, which I think is less formality.

And the ability for relationships to form from wherever they come from naturally,

closing the distance, not having any more of this

gap in terms of hierarchy.

And yeah that's definitely a good point, Rob.

Something else that, that I recall is, AK where we talked.

You told me about the importance of gratitude to mentors.

You told me about like your prayer.

We offer a prayer every day in the morning, ever since I've been a child.

So in that prayer, we're just told that mentor is a guiding

light and a guiding light.

is when you're actually seeking for help.

A guiding light would only come into your life when you're seeking for

help and support from your inner core.

You're really struggling.

You want something that can help you come out of it, that struggle.

So we're taught that when you say this prayer, you have the universe around you.

You are being looked after, you're being taken care of, and that's your mentor.

That guiding light.

That can come in the form of any person.

It could be Rob, it could be Waldemar, it could be Matthew, anyone who helps me.

And hence gratitude is a must because universe has no other attitude.

It's just gratitude that you can offer.

It's the language of the universe, basically, that is how we are taught

that you have to pay thanks to anyone who helps you, supports you and helps you move

out of that particular zone where you're stuck, because otherwise you wouldn't

be able to imagine where you'd be if that person wouldn't come in your life.

I think that's a perfect counterbalance to there's very

much in uS UK, and I probably think maybe Germany and maybe Italy, where

there's the idea of the self made man.

I remember George Bush Jr, his dad was the president of the

America, of the United States.

And he said, I'm a self made man without.

taking any humility or recognition of the privilege of the position, the access to

contacts, to everything else that he had.

I think that the whole great man theory and the movies of heroes who

did it all on their own make life so much more difficult for many of us.

Where is that attitude of being open to mentorship and open

to those that can guide us.

We all drive results in our life.

We are made to drive results.

But guidance, I don't think everyone is open to it, like you

said, Rob, but we should know when we are, when we need help, when

we need that support, ask for it.

And sometimes you may not receive it.

It may break your heart, but it's all about trying moving on next chapter.

But gratitude is a must.

It just makes you humble.

down to earth and it makes you relate to someone who needs help

and support from you later in life.

You can just look back and see who helped you and how you can make

a difference to someone else now.

So yeah, gratitude is powerful.

That makes me think pride immediately comes to mind.

And you talked a little bit about this Waldemar, but what

are the barriers to mentorship?

Cause so what we've covered is that there are mentors around.

Although we may not officially have that title there are people who have.

Who have solved the problems that we haven't yet faced.

But what are the barriers?

So one of the barriers would be not seeing people.

And what other barriers can you see?

Waldemar has to go first.

Okay.

Yeah.

See, Matthew's learning now that every time I get caught out on that one again.

Good call.

Yeah, as I said, so personally I can relate to the fear of asking for help.

So for what reason ever, I think this is something that can be deep rooted in us.

So it can have something to do with how you raised the environment

you raised how your childhood was.

Particularly I see myself and a little bit about my story Rob and

I've shared also a little piece of it.

So my family, my father, They actually did everything on their own and

I give you a very stupid example.

We have to paint the walls or we have to do some handiwork in the house.

My parents, they are now wealthy people.

I consider myself and them wealthy people.

My father would never pay somebody coming to do this job for him.

He would do it on his own, but it's not because of money.

It's not because of pride.

It's because he used to do that.

And somehow I can relate to that.

So somehow I can relate to the fact that raising with this okay,

you have to made it on your own.

You have to push through, you have to somehow make that work

and this is for me person.

This would be my personal answer.

So for me, it's a deep rooted thing from where I come from, how I raised, how my

family and my environment looked like.

And I can think that many people have this as a big obstacle

to, to consider mentorship and to consider help in general.

I will leave you with that.

It'll be nice to end listening to you.

So I'm going to go first now.

I think barrier is,

I would just simply call it I don't know We call it ego when we go to ask for help.

No, I don't want to ask for help.

It's just ego.

Childhood has a massive impact.

Like Waldemar said I asked for help.

So for me to understand the barriers and this is related to my childhood, because

like Waldemar said, for me, my father, he was selling flutes on the streets and a

principal from a school, a head teacher.

She saw some spark in him and every day she used to go and ask him, do

you want to sell fruits all your life?

So he's what do you want to do with that?

And he told me he was really naughty, mischievous to her as a child.

And she said, I will sponsor you, your education.

I will only give you education.

The rest of your life you will make.

So he said, I don't want education.

I don't like education.

I like this life.

I wake up late, sell fruits on the street and I have money.

I'm happy.

So she said knowledge is power and you realize that later, not now.

He ignored her.

He took his fruit cart and he went to some other area.

to sell those fruits so that she wouldn't notice him the next time.

So again she asked people, where's that little boy?

And she looked for him.

So she went around the, and she's Oh, you're hiding.

And then my father got very angry.

He's like, why are you behind me?

Why don't you leave me alone?

I don't have parents and I'm okay.

He has parents, but they never looked after my father.

He was all by himself.

And then something happened to him within a couple of months, and he's Akanksha,

I just went to her and I realized in those two months when she was not coming

to see me, that why is she not coming?

So I relate with what Waldemar said.

It's the childhood.

And I have always heard about his stories of mentorship.

He owes his life.

Matthew started this session where he said he owes his life to his mentor

that he wouldn't know where he was.

That's what my father says each time, every time.

So I think it's the childhood again, Waldemar has nailed it.

So yeah.

Love that story.

Okay.

Really?

No it's so wonderful.

If people share a little piece of their story.

Thank you.

Yeah.

No, thank you very much.

And then my father completed his education thanks to her.

Matthew, boil it down.

Great.

What's a barrier to why people wouldn't search out a mentor?

What's the barrier?

There's many, but I think at the end, people don't know what they don't know.

And with training, it's objective and you don't know.

With coaching, it's objective as well.

You have a place you want to be, coach is going to help you get there.

What you don't know, but mentoring is different.

You don't know what you don't know because you have not been there

and the mentor has, and that is a very hard concept to describe.

And I think that's the barrier to promoting mentorship

is you're trying to tell.

people about things they don't know.

They don't know they don't know.

That's the barrier.

And they'll only know them once they're through it.

Because that's, as a mentor, that's exactly what you bring to the table.

You have been there.

You've been to that place.

But you don't know Cincinnati if you've never been to Cincinnati.

But someone who's been to Cincinnati does.

They can talk all day about it, but you can't.

You don't know how great Cincinnati is because you've never been there until

your mentor brings you to Cincinnati.

Amazing.

Rob, you have your pitch, your reel for your post right there.

Take it, drop the

subtitles and go for it.

I've never been to Cincinnati.

Looking for a mentor from Cincinnati.

For heaven's sakes, people from Cincinnati, leave me alone.

I don't want to get the, I don't want to get the messages.

Okay.

Thank you.

Perfect words to finish up with.

I always like to finish these if we just go around it's actually

something I got from Systema.

Waldemar and I talked about it.

And at the end of every session rather than, any kind of bowing

or anything, it was just, everyone would just, say whatever they felt,

whatever they experienced, whatever they learned during that session.

So I'll start so it gives people a moment to think really just anything

that you felt in the discussion, any insights you'll go away with or

any questions it's leaving you with.

So for me, it's You know when you get a sense of a shift in something that I'm

seeing coaching and training are very saleable because they're very objective.

Yet they're limited by what you know you want.

Whereas mentorship is an experience and it's never going to be a saleable

because in my opinion, because people buy a specific result and what mentorship

can give you is an experience beyond what you knew you were looking for.

So where coaching is very objective and you'll get an outcome.

Mentorship is a long term relationship where you don't

know what you're going to get.

But what comes to mind is Joseph Campbell and the hero's journey.

And you have to be willing to give up the life that you planned to

get the life that you dream of.

So that's really what's coming up in my mind now.

I

have learned that I am going last

. Rob: I had that in mind.

So I'm going to say if it's okay.

AK has never been last.

So

I go first whoever of you two

boys who want to go next.

I go next.

I go next.

So what I take away from this session is part of knowing or talking to other two

great people I have not talked before.

Is that I had a pretty much an idea of how mentorship looks like, and I experienced

that I'm offering it, but I've learned a lot today about additional stuff that

I really didn't consider in mentorship.

And my biggest takeaways are certainly two important aspects that Matthew

said is the relationship aspect and the aspect of time and actually not

having the last things, the last speech that you delivered Matthew about that

you don't have, that you don't know.

What you get actually, and this is now from a business point of view, this is

a challenge to sell this service, to me, but it's actually also the solution,

how to promote this service to really be, because transparency is everything

you need to name it and to say it.

And I think people will understand it.

We'll understand it better as I understand it better now after the session.

And so I really, I'm really grateful for that.

And yeah, it's always wonderful to approach those sessions

with an open mind to learn.

And the amount that you learn is unbelievable.

And before handing over to Matthew, I would, I will hire him

as soon as he goes to Cincinnati.

I'm gonna hire him as a mentor.

Back to you.

I'll take pics.

As is always the case when Rob does one of these things he just has this magic about

bringing really great people together.

And I frankly don't know how he does it, but everyone's just seems to be,

on the same page somehow, always.

And so there was a lot of there's just a lot of, God, I hate this

word, but there was just a lot of synergy on so many different points

and so many different points.

But really my favorites came at the end for me when Waldemar talked about his

dad painting and AK talked about her dad.

Because these are stories that matter.

These are stories that matter by people who learned that they mattered over time.

They're not theoretical to those two.

They're the real deal.

And I just love hearing The real deal not the theoretical deal, the real deal.

And getting and getting things from our parents is generally the real deal.

'cause they've done it, right?

They've already done it.

So I thought that's cool.

I will listen to stuff like that a the time, so I really appreciate it.

Thank you.

Okay.

When Matthew really was talking about mentorship being a real story and

hence when Rob said it is an experience.

Waldemar also despite of coming from a background where he has, he's learned

the process, he's learned how to execute and help others achieve what they do

in their personal lives through the professional setting through being

a coach or a mentor, I think towards the end Mentorship, Rob, for me, is

unique for everyone because struggles are unique, challenges are unique.

I cannot compare them with Waldemar with Matthew, with yourself.

For me, my struggles are unique, and hence, this journey is immeasurable.

Yes I think that is how I would say from the session what I've

learned is we're all unique.

We all have unique stories, and every story is worth listening to.

Perfect words to end on.