Nina Endrst  00:04: Hi, I'm Nina Endrst

Anna Toonk  00:05: I'm Anna Toonk.

Nina Endrst  00:06: Welcome to How to Be Human.

Anna Toonk  00:08: A podcast that explores the common and often confusing themes of humaneness.

Nina Endrst  00:12: In this episode, Anna and I discuss Knowledge.

Anna Toonk  00:15: Take a seat, clear your mind, and let's chat.

Nina Endrst  00:20: Hello, how are you? We're here. I know how you are. You just told me how you are.

Anna Toonk  00:27: It's true. I'm like, really? No, I'm kidding. No, I'm not great. And it's funny because I literally just threw up what the past 48 hours have been for me at Nina, which is really fun for her. But I'm also laying on the floor of my mom's guest bedroom since I'm looking after her elderly poodle. None of this is a lie. And because she swore up and down, I was like, I'm gonna need to do a record, you know, what's the Wi-Fi sitch at your place? And she's like, Oh my god, it's so good. I've fixed it. I'm like, cool. Can I have the password? She's like, don't worry about it. It's on this thing in the guest bedroom. Do y'all think that's how that went?

Nina Endrst  01:14: Probs not. Wait, are you in the city?

Anna Toonk  01:16: I am in the city.

Nina Endrst  01:18: The - I’m not going to talk about which city.

Anna Toonk  01:20: I think I do. It's fine. I'm in New York. But yes, I am in the city. I'm not at her other place, which I mean has also has notoriously bad Wi-Fi. But I'm just really, it's funny that today, we're going to talk about knowledge, because I definitely have things to say about it. But I also, I felt like I've been spending more time with my mom. And it's been really good for the most part. But it's also very illuminating. I was laughing with Nina that I was like, yeah, I'm maybe learning some stuff about myself about like in reaction.

Nina Endrst  01:59: You've gained some knowledge.

Anna Toonk  02:00: I'm gaining some knowledge. Before we get into it, do you want me to tell you how knowledge is defined?

Nina Endrst  02:07: Please do.

Anna Toonk  02:08: Okay. Facts, information, and skills acquired by a person through experience or education. The theoretical or practical understanding of a subject. Awareness or familiarity is gained by experience of a fact or situation.

Nina Endrst  02:27: Oh, I'm so excited to talk about these things, because I feel like you're gonna be all over number one, and I'm gonna be all over number two.

Anna Toonk  02:33: I mean, to be honest, like, I think I'm both.

Nina Endrst  02:36: You are both. But Anna, for the sake of this exercise, you're number one, and I'm number two. No, totally, totally. You're both, of course.

Anna Toonk  02:45: Yeah. I mean, because I think I believe in the validity of both. And I actually, when I was doing a little bit of my research, I love the artist, and I know you do too, Louise Bourgeois. She said, you learn for yourself, not for others, not to show off, not to put the other one down. Learning is your secret. It is all you have. It is the only thing you can call your own. Nobody can take it away.

Nina Endrst  03:15: Oh, I'm very into that definition.

Anna Toonk  03:18: Yes. I had a feeling you would be. And to be honest, my parents, like the way I was raised, and I'm curious how you were in regards to knowledge, is there was probably nothing more sacred in my home and a lot of ways, then knowledge. And my parents almost acted, I think, in a way of like, I'm not saying this in a disrespectful way. I hope no one takes it that way. But almost as if they were immigrants of like, no one can take it from you, you can take it anywhere with you. It was almost like people who had had to flee or something. It was this interesting way that was really emphasized in my home and like this, you know, both my parents would get really mad if they thought that I was just–so I had learning disabilities, or I have them. I was diagnosed when I was eight years old.

Anna Toonk  04:08: And they realized like a way I coped in school was memorization. I had really good memory. And if I could just drill, I could memorize it. And they would get really upset because they're like, then you're not really learning it and you're not going to retain it. And I just remember vividly like a really young, they started this campaign to be like, if you know something, if you really learn it, if you have knowledge about something like no one can take it from you. They were just this point they hammered home and I'm just and my mom has, I mean both my parents did, and knowledge was like a real way for them to sort of like navigate.

Anna Toonk  04:51: My dad really uplifted himself out of a really bad home life through knowledge and learning and going to school and things like that. And my mom to this day still has like this huge respect, like if she knows someone went to an Ivy or something she's like, immediately like, Oh my god, they must be like the smartest, you know? I'm curious, what was the chat? What was the knowledge chat for you when you were growing up? Was it talked about? Like, I don't know if my experience was weird.

Nina Endrst  05:16: I don't think it's weird. I think it's kind of amazing. But my house was very different. My mom still says things to me, not as much now that she knows I'm thriving. No, I'm kidding.

Anna Toonk  05:30: Showed her! #thriving

Nina Endrst  05:33: For a long time, she was like, I should have made you do your homework more. I should have, so in my house, we did not talk directly. I mean, education was important, but that's different. But also, it was not impressed upon me that I, you know, for my grandfather, who was an immigrant, it certainly was. Like, he had that conversation with me and many conversations, but my parents were very much about experience, and a different type of knowledge, which I'm clearly learning has stuck with me.

Nina Endrst  06:11: And for a long time, I didn't understand the way school worked because of money reasons, you know, politics, fuck that shit. But it was also the way that we were being asked to memorize things all the time, made me so stressed, because I'm like, exactly to your parents' point, I can memorize a bunch of information, but I'm not going to retain that. I can honestly say, I did very well, once I decided I wanted to in school, but I don't remember probably 80% of what I learned in school, literally. I'm sure I remember some things.

Nina Endrst  06:44: But there's so much that I missed because it never settled because it was just like, take this pop quiz, take this test. And there was so much anxiety around it. And I knew I just needed to get the grade to get to the next point to get to the next thing that I was way more interested in experience and music and art, and in my family was very, very important. Like we were very much centered in that. But when it came to knowledge as far as like, learning in a kind of linear way, that was not the conversation. You had to do it. But it was also like, a different type of knowledge. Learn how to beat the system was more like my conversation.

Anna Toonk  07:37: That's, I think, that's really interesting. I mean, my family will say, I mean, my dad was a forensic accountant. And my dad was–

Nina Endrst  07:47: What does that mean? Because every time you say that, I picture your dad with dead bodies and numbers.

Anna Toonk  07:52: He was counting them a lot. So what he did I mean, he worked for Arthur Andersen, which at the time until Enron, which

Nina Endrst  08:00: Enron? Throwin it back.

Anna Toonk  08:02: Took it down, which, you know, my mom and I were like shit, what would that have been like if he had been alive? So he tracked money on massive projects. So part of why he died in Kuala Lumpur was he was working on the airport there. So he was tracking all the money. And I remember is like a little kid, I would be like, coming downstairs or something. And hearing him be like, What do you mean a $90 million wire went missing? Like that, it's $90 million. It's not it can't go missing, you know, and I was like, What?

Anna Toonk  08:35: You know, and this is like a while ago, so that was much more than, I mean, $90 million. I mean, when you're talking $90 million, it's always a lot of fucking money. But at that point, this is the 90s, so it's whatever in that, you know, let's count for inflation. So it's a billion dollars. JK. But he would track massive amounts of money and make sure everything was above board. It was going where it was supposed to be, the people paying, you know, like, just in a massive way doing accounting, but I don't know really what makes a forensic accountant different from just a regular accountant. He was a certified public, you know, CPA, but he also was like an expert witness. Like he would testify and trials and things like that. And so my dad went to Vietnam, and when he came back, he didn't just like go to Vietnam for vacation. He fought in the Vietnam War. Whoops.

Nina Endrst  08:46: So yada yada yada. He was in Vietnam.

Anna Toonk  09:44: He was in Vietnam, you know, just vacayaing. So he came back to the states and he went to Alaska and did like codebreaking for a while, and then went back to Florida where he was mostly from, he came from an army family, so we moved around a lot. But so he was like, okay, maybe I should like go to college. Like, that's part of why I joined the Navy was, you know, to get money for school. So he did like a year of community college to, you know, do like his SATs and like kind of knock all that out to then apply to undergraduate.

Anna Toonk  10:21: And so when he went to FSU, he was like 23. So he had to do all these placement tests because they were like, We don't know where you are, because you're not coming out of high school, you know? He exempted out of math. He got to the point where they were like, okay, so something about space. And he was like, Well, you can't calculate space, because it's infinite. And they were like, oh, for fuck sake.

Nina Endrst  10:45: They're like, I think you're in the wrong state, sir.

Anna Toonk  10:48: Kind of, like even at that point, you know. So he taught math for his math credit for like his first two years until he could do like graduate level math or something like that. So my dad had this brilliant kind of mathematical brain. And my mom's brilliant, but definitely much more in like the arts, in terms of languages and creativity, like definitely not math-centric at all. So I've always felt really lucky that like, my genetics are coming from these two people that are super smart. But I have learning disabilities. And so even though everybody in my family will deny it, I'm treated like the dumb one. And it's like, kind of interesting to me.

Nina Endrst  11:29: You're so smart.

Anna Toonk  11:30: And I'm like, kind of one of the only ones who like, did something with my brain in a lot of ways, you know?

Nina Endrst  11:38: Well, that's interesting. You did, but didn't everybody in different ways?

Anna Toonk  11:42: I mean, I don't know.

Nina Endrst  11:44: Your dad was using his brain.

Anna Toonk  11:45: He was using his brain, yes. I'm talking a little bit more about like my mom and brother. But it's just kind of interesting because they're super intellectual. They're super, like, I'm going to read every book, I'm going to do everything. But, I think that they get anticipatory anxiety. And so they won't put themselves out there. And they can be critical or something of me, but I'm like, at some point, I think you do have to do things. You have to experience. You know, my brother at one point wanted to be a writer. And he wouldn't submit his writing anywhere until he had written his first three novels because they were a set. And I was like, This is insane.

Nina Endrst  12:30: How are you going to know if they suck?

Anna Toonk  12:32: Well, and it might evolve. Like, write one. Yeah, exactly.

Nina Endrst  12:37: Everything has to grow, like through some shit, you know? Waiting for the perfect product is not, in my opinion, what knowledge or gaining knowledge is about that's different.

Anna Toonk  13:03: I think like for me, a big thing has been, so I was diagnosed when I was eight with learning disabilities. And I went to a special school for two years. So I learned how I needed to learn. And I learned how I needed to like break down info and stuff for my brain to absorb it. And I learned tricks and like all these different things. I don't remember tons of them. But it worked for me. So it became almost like second nature for me. And so I think I've always been good at sort of taking in things and figuring out what I needed to do to make them click in my brain. But I think something else, because I nailed that part, like I had so much help and guidance, and shout out to my mom for doing that. People thought it was so weird at the time and I think it really saved me. In the US in the school system, I definitely would have been left behind you know?

Nina Endrst  13:58: Yeah, you would have.

Anna Toonk  13:59: Yeah, I would have been just, they were like, teachers were like, Oh, she's a pleasure to have in class. She's so sweet. My mom's like, I don't give a fuck if she's sweet. You're gonna make her dumb, you know, like, because you're not teaching her. You're not helping her. She needs help, you know, which I am really, really grateful to my mom for. But I think as I, you know, and maybe it's going to art school as well, that's where I went to college.

Anna Toonk  14:24: I learned in a big, big way both with Parsons, they were like, you're going to have fine art and you're going to have commercial art. So there was already this separation of like, kind of what you're precious about and what you're not, you know? And I started learning the value of like doing and experiencing, which I think is how a lot of knowledge and then confidence around your knowledge is built. That I don't know how often you come across this like with friends or clients where they want to like, talk in circles around something rather than doing it. And it's like, we're not gonna know until we just do it.

Nina Endrst  15:03: Yeah. I think that, unfortunately, something you said sparked something in me which, honestly, in the shower where I do most of my great thinking.

Anna Toonk  15:12: Same.

Nina Endrst  15:13: I don't think this is triggering for me anymore. But I think this subject, there's many times in my life where I've felt like I wasn't smart. And I definitely have grown out of that, through practice, by the way, in doing things and putting myself out there, and really surprising myself. Because for so long, there was one way to be smart, or there was one way to be recognized, I should say, for being such. And you were kind of cast aside if you were emotionally intelligent.

Anna Toonk  15:48: Yep.

Nina Endrst  15:48: And not really interested. I could have been a star student, I think in a lot of ways if I really, if that's all I cared about, but I wanted to know about the people around me, I wanted to know about the world around me, I felt a lot. And so for a long time, and I think a lot of I see this in clients sessions a lot, they want to have proof before they do it. Yeah, yeah, I knew you're gonna like that word.

Anna Toonk  16:17: Oh, yeah.

Nina Endrst  16:19: Just sweating, right? Just fan yourself, darling, fan yourself. It's getting hot in here. When they want proof that it's gonna work out, and they want proof that that it's going to be validated. And I'm speaking they as in me too, you know, I want proof too. And for a long time, I just fucked off in school. And I have a little bit of shame around the way I handled college because I didn't handle it.

Anna Toonk  16:45: You say it like there was an incident, the way I handled college. One, it's like college.

Nina Endrst  16:50: The whole four years, literally. The whole shebang.

Anna Toonk  16:55: I was that was not me. That was out of character.

Nina Endrst  16:59: I'd like to have a recall. It was 2003 to 2007. Yep, that's gonna, just all those were dangerous. So again, I love my parents, they taught me how to beat the system. And I just knew inherently how to beat the system. It was quite easy once you're in it so much, and like getting in trouble all the time. As a white girl, I should say that, it was easy to kind of, you know, get around certain things at some points.

Nina Endrst  17:24: But I did myself a great disservice, too, because I thought that that's like, the only thing I was good at. I just thought I was like a really good rebel. And that that knowledge was going to have to, like carry me through. Because I didn't have a lot of other, you know, things to stand on until I realized, like, I was getting these amazing grades. And I was just barely doing the minimum to get myself to that point. So I don't know that I have a learning disability. But I wouldn't rule out the way I learn is very different.

Anna Toonk  17:59: I'm inclined to think everyone with a strong Aries placement has ADD.

Nina Endrst  18:03: I agree.

Anna Toonk  18:04: That's my unprofessional

Nina Endrst  18:07: Professional. We're doctor scientists now. And so yeah, and psychotherapists and psychiatric doctors, you know, all of the above. So I feel like the proof for me, has been in experience, like, wow, I know how to navigate and to obtain the knowledge that I want. And also, I think that that's an important conversation aside, which is, I also have to get the knowledge I don't want, right?

Nina Endrst  18:37: And I wonder what you feel about that point of when you realize it, because knowledge changes, right? I'm talking about the way that presented when we're children or when we're in college when there's a very like there's a system attached to it like you go to school, you get your knowledge there. But when you're out in the world, I think a lot of people stop learning, don't know how to learn yet. And then they want to turn off those parts of themselves because they don't want to see something they don't know how to handle or know how to, you know, all that.

Anna Toonk  19:15: I have a lot of thoughts on this, because I think it's where my learning disabilities and knowledge of having them since I was eight years old, crazy serves me. And that I know that my superpower and my weakness is my brain, you know, and so it's something I've had to constantly check in around my learning disabilities if, at this point, if I was like, diagnosed, I'd probably be considered neurodivergent, which has been kind of interesting. And one of my disorders has been re-classified as a visual processing disorder, which I also find fascinating. But I've always had to check-in.

Anna Toonk  19:55: So like when I'm going through a lot of shit, I know my executive functioning is going to be compromised. So I build things in, you know? I'm like, okay, I might be more forgetful. I might be this, I might be that. It's why I'm a little like, strict about certain things too, because I know if I don't stick to my systems, things tend to go, it gets chaotic, you know. But I think something you said that I think is really interesting, and I hear often with other people, is them growing up with this idea that they weren't smart. And something that was, like, helpful for me is that it was really drilled into me, just because I had learning disabilities, it didn't mean I wasn't smart.

Anna Toonk  20:37: But it was like, but you're not as smart as your brother. And it's like, kind of nuts as an adult when you think about it. And you're like, all of this shit is so arbitrary. Because I didn't get a certain score on a test or like, because like some, you know, teacher that maybe didn't even like me, so they graded me harder, you know. Like, we're using all these metrics to define something that like people do carry with them the rest of their lives.

Anna Toonk  21:06: And I think something too that was really helpful for me, is both my father and my grandfather were really successful businessmen that had really unlikely paths to that success. So that kind of knowing that you could be a bit scrappy was really helpful. And then working for me in production for 15 years and having to, like, constantly figure shit out with like, not knowing. I had figure out like, you know, how to find like, raccoons, you know? And so I had to build this confidence around, like, there's nothing wrong with not knowing. It's like not doing anything. Like, I'm not intimidated by that, you know, like, and I think you find that in our work relationship

Nina Endrst  21:58: I'm not intimidated by that either.

Anna Toonk  22:00: No, I don't think you're either. But I also think like, in our working relationship, you and I both are like, Oh, yeah, we don't care if we don't know how to do something, you know, like, we're like, oh, okay. Or, I forget what it was once and I was just like, I find that kind of overwhelming, or like, it doesn't make sense. Like, my brain won't latch on to it, you know. And like, we've talked about it with certain modalities as well. My brain for whatever reason rejects the fuck out of human design. And I'm not saying that it's not valid. That's not what I'm debating at all here. I'm just literally saying my brain like,

Nina Endrst  22:31: I couldn't possibly process human design.

Anna Toonk  22:33: Yeah, my brain is just like, nope, cannot make sense out of it, you know? And yet with like, astrology, my brain is like, yeah, love it, feed me some more. Like, that makes sense to me. But that's something too I think, when I was younger, I used to really like him and hover and be like, What's wrong with me? Like, why can I get that? And now I'm like, it's just not for me, you know? Or, let me break it down. Or let me reread it. Something I've also become really aware of, and I wonder if you do this as well, is not everybody's my teacher.

Nina Endrst  23:07: Yeah, except for that thought is very rejected in elementary school when you voice that opinion, as like a child. You're like, You're not my teacher. It's like, well, I am. It's like, Nope, you're not.

Anna Toonk  23:16: Well, I mean, that's so tricky, because it's like, I don't know. I mean, I was so much, I was like was not rebellious until much later. And even then, I was like, sneaky. You know, I wanted to be liked. I wanted to excel, I wanted to conform, I guess, you know. I wanted that. And I think that there's something to it. Like, I have a couple of friends who didn't go to college. And I would say to be honest, they still have a little bit of bitterness or something about that only having their high school diploma or GED has like, held them back in life. And they're like, whatever, it's just a piece of paper and stuff. And I'm like, Yeah, and it's classes, for sure.

Anna Toonk  23:54: But college is more than just your degree. You're not just learning things in classes like you're also learning things about socializing, and, you know, group work. You're learning more than that, you know, and you're getting this mini-trial to be an adult and a safer environment as well. But I do think it sucks that we put so much emphasis on this thing that is really hard. I mean, it's like somebody was talking about like, what I don't have, you know, kids so I don't worry about it that much in terms of like tuition and what tuition costs and stuff. I mean, I have friends who are paying $10,000 here for preschool.

Nina Endrst  24:35: It's like up to 30 or 40.

Anna Toonk  24:39: I mean, my god.

Nina Endrst  24:40: For preschool. When I used to nanny, there was a little girl who I used to drop off at a preschool on the Upper East Side, which like was not very impressive, and I know that she paid like 30 grand for it. And I'd pick her up from school like two hours later, and I'm like, macaroni? That's what you got for me. 30 grand, like, what the fuck. At least Send her home with a $100 bill.

Anna Toonk  25:02: Oh my god, that'd be amazing. It's interesting though, because my friend Nandita, who I told you a lot about, her little girl goes to Montessori. And oh my god, Montessori, like I'd heard about it, but didn't know a lot about it. Very cool. And like very cool that a lot of it is about doing, it's about experiencing. Something I realized, and my brother teaches, and he's trying to do his master's and blah, blah, blah. Anyway, I was like, I am a visual and tactile learner. He's like, actually, it's called like kinetic.

Anna Toonk  25:46: And that's something I learned that was really helpful for me as an adult, like, Oh, this is like, when I connect to something best, you know, like, if I can see it, and I can touch it, you know? So some of these things like I wish that it wasn't thought of almost as like, weird, you know, because it seems like for tons of kids, that would suit them better. And it makes me sad. How many people like that you and I are even saying on here that like we thought we were dumb. Like, how's that possible?

Nina Endrst  26:17: I mean, literally up until a few years ago. And I think that when I worked in, you know, these really high-pressure environments, I always knew that I had like, a different connection to certain things than other people. So I was always trying to kind of figure out like my place because other people seem to really do so well at these very common things that were equated with success. You know, and my friends, too, are pretty, it's really funny. I was thinking about this the other day, a colleague of mine at the modeling agency I worked at in New York, was like, Girl, I looked through all your pictures, and like your friends are so white. I was like, Oh, my God, they are.

Nina Endrst  27:03: But in college and high school, I hung out with people who are very traditional, and on a very traditional track. And I have been thinking a lot about that, like, did I do that? I mean, obviously, I have a lot of love for them, you know? Yeah, most of them we've grown apart, but I have love for them. I just wonder why I put myself in these situations. Like, I'd never sought out people that had like a similar background than me. You know, both my parents were artists. And I never like hung out with the art school kids or I never, you know, but I went to theater camp for a few years when I was a kid. And then I was like, Oh, well, everybody's playing sports.

Nina Endrst  27:39: And I just, I lost so much of myself for a long time. And it was all for something. But I wish that there was somebody in that system to say like, there's a different way and you are just applying yourself differently. It doesn't mean you're not smart. But there was really no one thing that to me. There was no conversation around like you are smart. It was like, well, I had one guidance counselor who I like literally owe my life to because I would have not graduated high school if it wasn't for her. But the Montessori method, all of these kinds of different methods. I don't know, I know, the Montessori and I know like, what's the other one? I can't think

Anna Toonk  28:20: I can't think of it either. It's like, not Waverly, but it's like something kind of like that. I feel like.

Nina Endrst  28:24: Anyway, imagine if those things were, you know, accessible to all people. You know, Huai, my husband's an artist, and I do this wacky shit, you know, which I'm so happy that I'm able to do. But I was thinking the other day, like what happens to all of those kids who don't have the access that we had, you know? Like, we both came from some level of privilege. And we were able to explore different things, or I was able to fuck off in college, and my parents didn't have a lot of money when I went to college at all, but we made it work. So we obviously could, and I couldn't like grab ahold of the opportunity the way I maybe would have now seeing in retrospect, how much privilege I had to even be sitting there.

Anna Toonk  29:14: I mean, does any 18 year old?

Nina Endrst  29:17: I don't know.

Anna Toonk  29:18: It's so tough.

Nina Endrst  29:19: I don't know. Maybe, maybe not. Is anyone doing it for the right reasons? Maybe the people that are fucking paying for it themselves.

Anna Toonk  29:26: Yeah, I mean, I think I felt a lot of gratitude that I was at Parsons. But it was like because I went to art school and decided I wasn't going to go to like a liberal arts college or anything like that. It was like, well then you better go to the one of the best ones. It was like, as if I had figured out a way to like, thrive in spite of like not wanting to be an intellectual or something. It's like so weird to me because even this prize like on knowledge and stuff like that, it's not like tons of intellectuals are like killing it making money.

Anna Toonk  29:59: So to a certain degree, I don't know. It's like the messaging was a little scrambled in my family of like, you know, you should be really smart, you should read a lot, you should pursue these things. And I once I had to explain to my mom, because she was like, oh, like you read the worst books, you watch the worst TV shows, and I was like, I work. I want to escape. Not for nothing, like my mom keeps herself really busy. But she doesn't, not until actually more recently, because now she's a working artist, but she wasn't for many years. I'm like, it's okay if you need your strife and challenge and stuff, like from your books. But like, I don't. I'm living it. I don't need it. You know, like, I want fluff. My brain needs a break, you know? So I don't think there needs to be that. I think it's just interesting all this judgment that comes in around knowledge

Nina Endrst  30:50: And assumption.

Anna Toonk  30:53: Well, and not recognizing that a lot of this stuff is personal. And it's arbitrary. Like, you can decide you think people are smart if they read like highfalutin books. But like, is that true? They don't always make good decisions, you know?

Nina Endrst  31:10: And let's talk about happiness for a sec.

Anna Toonk  31:13: Oh my gosh, please.

Nina Endrst  31:13: Let's talk about happiness.

Anna Toonk  31:14: Well, I was gonna get into happiness because of self-knowledge. And I think like, it's interesting to me that you and I've had these similar stories of kind of being like, I think I might be dumb. Wait, no, I don't think I am. Because something for me, I don't really remember when it changed. I want to I say late 20s, maybe early 30s. But I hope it wasn't that long for past Anna.

Anna Toonk  31:40: But anyway, something I put together in my own self-knowledge is I was like, you know, if I'm this big dumb dumb, you know, which, I'm kind of harboring this secret fear that I'm a dummy, why is it everyone comes to me to fix shit? If I'm that dumb, why am I the fixer? Like, you need to be kind of smart to be a fixer, you know? I was like, that's where I think sometimes like you're amused by me is that I have this real divide within me of like, very intuitive, very experiential, very artsy, like all these things. But then I'm very pragmatic.

Anna Toonk  32:19: And I'm very like, one plus one equals two, you know? And that sort of being able to toggle between those mindsets has really helped me, you know, and it's helped me consistently through my life. But when I guess was starting to figure out how am I going to regard myself as an adult, that self-knowledge and me going like, okay, I'm maybe not like everyone, but I've also sort of learned no one's like everyone, you know, like, all these sort of things. I had to do this, like, audit, and be like, if you think you're a big dumb dumb, and you just think you're a dummy, and stuff, how do you think that helps you?

Anna Toonk  32:59: How do you think it helps you to, like be putting that out there in the world? You maybe need to stop it, you know. But sometimes to on the flip side, I've also said like, I'm secure enough in my intelligence that I don't mind being like, oh, wow, that was like real dumb, you know, like, you just did something like so dumb. But I think also too a big thing that people don't talk about enough in self-knowledge is that it requires constant updating that you have to check-in. It's kind of like, how many dudes have you seen in their 50s and 60s talking about, like, how they're athletes. And you're like, hey, high school was a long time ago for you, friend. When was the last time you were on a team?

Anna Toonk  33:40: And I'm not saying that to be a total bitch. I mean, I'm saying that because like, we all have to update and go like, Hmm, that's interesting. Like, being regarded as an athlete is important to me. How can I have that in my life? But like, I think all of this stuff is this tricky dance of like, Where's the evidence? What's the feeling? And then like, what's the knowledge? Like, how do I put these things together? But I want to know what you think about self-knowledge before we start to wrap up.

Nina Endrst  34:08: I think that it would be incredibly helpful for everyone, every individual, to internalize and sit with what that means and how they move through the world and to really like take inventory almost of like you're saying, are my friends always coming to me? Or am I the fixer? Or am I always or often emotionally grounded in situations where people are losing their shit? You know, all of these attributes that we don't really celebrate, but are truly worth celebrating. And honestly–

Anna Toonk  34:56: Valuable. They're valuable.

Nina Endrst  34:57: They're so valuable, and you cannot teach them to some degree. You can, I think there are people who are just gifted, like intellectually, who can absorb information, and be taught more information. I think that's one like style of, you know, learning. But I do think there are some people who are just naturally gifted at emotional intelligence, and you have to also be able to kind of foster and nurture that and treat it with the same respect and the same importance than you would with somebody who can, you know, do like long fucking division? When's the last time you use that shit? Just sayin.

Anna Toonk  35:00: Yeah, I mean, no, I have a phone. So I don't.

Nina Endrst  35:43: I think it's really sad that when we grew up, right, you know, you're in your early 40s and I'm approaching 40 soon. And I think a lot of the clients I see or the friends that I talk to, are struggling with things that they may not have been, you know, struggling with, obviously, back then. But we can set people up for success, I think the more we really engage with different sides of them, right, instead of just this one way of being and just kind of hammer down on, you sit.

Nina Endrst  36:20: And I read something years ago about how like the model of schooling was invented, you know, for people to work in factories. And it's very, like a linear actual way of learning, of thinking of working of being. And things have changed, and they should. And so just I would encourage people to really honor all these different parts of yourself and think about what knowledge even means to you, and how you want to get it and where you want to get it and what's valuable to you and what you want to know, what you want to know.

Anna Toonk  36:54: Yeah. And I would also say, if you suspect or think you might have learning disabilities, go down that path. I know a lot of people, a lot of women especially it gets overlooked in because how it expresses in women is very different than men. So if you suspect that, I know a lot of people, a lot of friends right now are getting diagnoses around ADHD and things like that. And it's bringing them a lot of comfort to be like, I'm not crazy, you know, like, my brain is wired differently.

Anna Toonk  37:21: So if you suspect that, I would be like, give it a whirl, it might bring you some peace. And I would also like if you are like Nina and I and, you know harbor that sort of like for years, I didn't think I was smart. Kind of become a detective of that story. Where did it come from and why? And how can you invite yourself to expand beyond it.

Nina Endrst  37:41: Agreed. Well, thanks, guys. We're happy to be chatting about knowledge with you today. And next time, we don't know what we're going to be talking about.

Anna Toonk  37:51: That's true. We'll be talking about something.

Nina Endrst  37:55: By the time we get there.

Anna Toonk  37:56: It's true. And to all of you who have left reviews, who have DM'ed, we love you so much.

Nina Endrst  38:04: Yes, thank you.

Anna Toonk  38:04: It's borderline creepy.

Nina Endrst  38:05: Yes. Send to all of your friends. Thank you. Thank you. We're just strangers.

That's all for today's episode.

Anna Toonk  38:16: If there's a topic you want us to discuss, please submit it on our website at thesoulunity.com/howtobehuman.

Nina Endrst  38:22: If you want to connect with other thoughtful humans, please join us at The Soul Unity. Listeners get two weeks free by going to our website and visiting our podcast page.

Anna Toonk  38:31: Thanks for listening. And remember, we're guides, not gurus.