00:00:08 Shreya: Most people don't struggle because they are not trying hard enough. They struggle because they are nervous. System is running. Show quietly, constantly, like a background app that won't close. And when anxiety and insomnia The question becomes what actually helps the brain feel safe enough to power down? Today we are exploring a tool that's been around longer than most people realize, yet still feels like a hidden door in mental wellness that is cranial electrotherapy stimulation CES. Welcome back to the Wellness Reimagined, where we explore healing with curiosity, nuances, and real world practicality without the hype. I'm your host, Shreya, and today I'm joined by Yang, a psychiatric nurse practitioner, anxiety and nervous system expert and the founder of Nirvana Calm, a mental health innovation company dedicated to making cranial electrotherapy stimulation a widely recognized and accessible option for anxiety and insomnia. A topic is my discovery on cranial electrotherapy stimulation. So if you have ever wondered what is real and what is safe and what's actually helpful when your nervous system won't settle. Then this episode is for you. Welcome, Tanya. I'm honored to have you on my show.

00:01:32 Tauna Young: Thank you Shreya. I'm honored to be here. I appreciate that very much. Thank you for that great introduction.

00:01:38 Shreya: Thank you so much. And before we get into Rs. What was the moment in your clinical work where you realized, oh, nervous system regulation is the missing piece for so many people?

00:01:52 Tauna Young: Yeah, that's a good question. Um, you know, the, the nervous system is kind of the, the bridge between the mind and body. Um, and honestly, like emotional experiences typically are felt in the body before your mind has time to process them. Um, and so a lot of, a lot of conventional approaches don't fully honor that, that connection. And a lot of people believe that you can separate the two. I think a time when I, I mean, there's I think there's been lots of times that I've experienced that. But a time that comes to mind is when I was actually I was a graduate student and I was working under the direction of a preceptor in a primary care office, and I was seeing a patient who was experiencing some uncomfortable symptoms. She thought they were cardiac related symptoms. And I asked this patient if she had a history of anxiety, because I knew that anxiety comes with a lot of physical symptoms. And she said, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, I don't want to go like this. This is physical. It's not mental, it's physical. And I said, oh, I know, I know it is. Anxiety is, is a very physical experience. And really emotions in general are a physical experience and and if we don't understand the connection, um, it's really easy to, to not be able to get into the core of where problems and concerns are originating.

00:03:37 Shreya: MM. That's such an important shift because it reframes the struggle from something wrong with me to my system is stuck on high alert.

00:03:53 Tauna Young: That's a great way to put it. You know, I refer to it sometimes. Um, it's like our, our, our idle mode, gas pedal mode. Um, you know, our body, our brain has a kind of a mode that we call the default mode network, which is kind of like the idle mode of a car where, um, when your brain is not involved in any external tasks that require a lot of focus and we shift into that, that default mode, the idle mode or the resting mode on a computer or electronics where it doesn't turn off, your brain never turns off, but there's a resting mode. And those, those times are critical for processing, remembering, planning, daydreaming. Um. You know, thinking like making social connections without that, that rest time to, to process things. Um, it's, it's hard to, to really live a healthy life it physically or mentally. And that, that default mode that is really crucial to health in, in people who have, um, chronic stress, chronic anxiety, um, that default mode network is, is off. It's not quite calibrated, right?

00:05:18 Shreya: Yes, I agree. And also when people here are cranial electrotherapy stimulation, a lot of minds jump to extremes either miracle device or sound scary. What is the biggest misconception you think you run into about CES?

00:05:39 Tauna Young: Yeah, that's I'm glad you asked that. It does sound scary to think about what? A little electrical impulse the brain like that. That sounds really scary. And I think people kind of their minds go back to like, um, electric, electric, convulsive therapy or ect. They call that shock therapy for short. It is not at all like that. And in fact, nothing about electric, uh, c, c, s is painful at all. It's just it's just a little tiny tingling feeling. If you feel it at all, it's just a very tingly. There's nothing unpleasant about it. Um, and it's, it's not at all that even it's not the same thing at all from electric shock therapy, but I understand how it could kind of make the person kind of think that it's just, it's just a very, very slight, um, electrical pulse that it's very gentle. In fact, some people actually like the sensation actually.

00:06:39 Shreya: Yeah. So it's, it's not about forcing the brain into calm. It's more like giving the nervous system a nudge toward regulation. And also if someone is anxious and already body sensitive, what would you say to help them feel emotionally safe even considering this?

00:07:03 Tauna Young: Yeah. Well, you know, in general, anxious people struggle to feel safe in any scenario. That's that's really what the core at the core of anxiety is, is, is fear and, uh, um, an ineffective relationship with that. But, but also, um, oftentimes it begins with not so much thinking errors, but some, some physical errors. So, um, I would honestly, I think I would assume that a person who had anxiety probably didn't feel safe a lot and didn't really have a clear reason why. And that's really what makes it anxiety. That's the difference between fear and anxiety is that with anxiety, the person doesn't have a logical explanation for why they're feeling afraid and and they reject that feeling. So there's a resistance to it. And there it creates kind of a. of a complexity to the fear because because of that rejection. So, um, what I would say that might help a person feel more comfortable trying it, I guess would be, um. To explain that it's, it's an invitation to their nervous system to recalibrate, to become more familiar with the state of calm. Calm is something that people who live with anxiety or just just always feeling elevated on edge. Calm is, is a is a foreign land to them. It's a place that they, they very rarely get to visit, very rarely get to stay long if they do. And, and so that honestly, because it is so familiar or unfamiliar at first for people who aren't used to it. It can be a very profound experience that I've seen in front of me hundreds of times, and I never get tired of it because it's it's so profound and impactful and beautiful for people who try Rs. For the first time.

00:09:23 Shreya: Yes. That's really beautiful. And also, you have said something really powerful that patient outcomes are not just about the treatment plan. They are about nervous system capacity. So where does CEA fit into that bigger picture? Like what is actually supporting underneath the symptoms?

00:09:44 Tauna Young: Yeah. Thank you for asking that. That's a great question. Um, I would say there's several aspects to, to that. Um, one of the things that, you know, I mentioned the default mode network, the ability to, to idle. Like if a car is always in gas pedal mode, think about what that does to just to the car, to never, to never get to just idle. You know, everything wears out faster. That person's always going to feel more fatigued. Um, everything's harder, you know, little, little inconveniences, little annoyances, little sounds that are, that are somewhat unpleasant. All of that just gets heavier in general, and a person just isn't going to cope with otherwise benign situations. They kind of they amplify for that person. But there's also, um, a heart rate variability is something that I think is, is, um, not discussed as frequently, but heart rate variability explains the ability of your heart rate to adjust to, to different conditions throughout the day. And for people who get stuck in fight or flight or have that chronic anxiety, their heart rate variability, meaning the ability of their heart rate to to adjust to different conditions is is poor. We want to see high heart rate variability. But with people who are stuck in chronic stress, chronic anxiety, they have lower heart rate variability, meaning their, their heart is, is activated and, and working harder than it needs to a greater amount of the time. That's why I kind of call it like gas pedal mode. You know, it's like it, it's sometimes it can even be like pressing on the gas and the brakes at the same time. And that's not the same thing as idle or neutral. And what we want is we want to what CES can do is it gently can train your brain and your body, your nervous system, to become more not only more familiar with idle mode, but also know how to get there more easily to make them more familiar with that space, but also more familiar with the transition into that space. It recalibrates that in a way that is very profound and very impactful for people.

00:12:11 Shreya: Yeah. So, so in a way, CSS can be less about fixing you and more about widening your window. So therapy works better, sleep becomes possible and coping skills stick. I think that's a very different mental health model. More, uh, integrative and more human. And also in your experience, who tends to benefit most people with racing thoughts, body anxiety, insomnia, or is it more nuanced than that?

00:12:44 Tauna Young: You know, it might be a little more nuanced than that because I think that none of those exist on their own. I think that a lot of those things, they travel hand in hand, you know, like people who aren't sleeping are going to be anxious people. Anxious people aren't going to sleep. People with PTSD have anxiety. People with depression have anxiety. So I think a lot of times they travel together. Um, but as far as who benefits the most? That's, that's a hard question. I don't know that I can say that because how do you, how do you quantify? How do you quantify fifty percent improvement to your anxiety symptoms? You know, how do you, how do you quantify sixty percent improvement to your pain if you have fibromyalgia? You know, how do, how do I, who am I to say like, which is more valuable, which is more impactful? You know, like changes like that are life changing to, to have, you know, there's, there's a recent study, um, I think it was twenty fourteen, the randomized controlled trial, um, among people who had anxiety and sixty seven percent of the participants experienced at least fifty percent improvement to their anxiety. Now, that doesn't mean only sixty seven percent experienced improvement. It means that only sixty seven percent experienced at least fifty percent improvement, which is amazing and great. But I also don't want to discount the people who got thirty percent improvement, twenty percent improvement. I mean, that's even just that amount of difference is the difference between being willing to leave the house, being willing to get a driver's license, and drive a lot of people who are anxious don't, don't want to drive. Um, and how can I like with people, I mentioned a study in, um, a book book that I wrote recently about, um, people with fibromyalgia, uh, study that was done sixty percent improvement to their pain. You know, that that's the difference between like constant suffering and tolerable discomfort for a lot of people. And, and the changes that, that can, like the things that, that can open up for a person in their life and what they would do, what they could accomplish and do. It's just you just it can't be quantified. It's life altering for people.

00:15:05 Shreya: Yes. And also, if someone considering Rs, then what does responsible use actually look like? Like not a protocol lecture, just the common sense map.

00:15:19 Tauna Young: Yeah. Well, that's one of my favorite things to about Rs is that, you know, when you, when you use the word responsible, use I it kind of makes my mind turn to safety. Safe use. And you know, I'm a prescriber. I can prescribe any medication I want. I do prescribe, I prescribe all day, all the time. Um, but there is no medication that I prescribe that has the safety profile that Rs has. You know, when it comes to responsible use with medications, there's, there's always potential side effects, adverse events. You bottle of pills. You wouldn't want to just leave them laying around because a child could get it right. Your dog could eat it and get sick. Like there's there's so many safety concerns, um, that go along with medications. With CES, it's like not even a discussion that that needs to occur. The safety profile, it's not even in the same ballpark as literally anything else that we could be discussing. There is nothing that I prescribe that has this type of safety profile, first of all. But also there's nothing that I prescribe that has this success rate. So, you know, responsible use. It's, um, it's something that I, that I don't think about when I'm thinking of CES. I think about it when I'm doing literally anything else that I'm recommending or prescribing. Because with CES, you know, they've been FDA cleared since nineteen seventy nine. And to have FDA clearance. There's a really high standard that that thing is held to. Whether it's a drug or a treatment, anything that's got that that FDA clearance. And one of the things that would be required is having a, an adverse event reporting protocol. So every medication, every everything that has FDA clearance or approval, um, will have an adverse event reporting system in place. With CES, there never has been any adverse events reported ever. So it's just there's just so many concerns that we just don't need to have with CES. And the remarkable thing is it is its success rate is higher than any of those things that do have potential adverse events. You know, with SAE like I prescribe antidepressants, anti-anxiety medications all the time. All the time. I also prescribe Rs all the time. No one's ever complaining of having sexual side effects with Rs. Weight gain, like all so many different physical side effects. Upset stomach. You know they're allergic to it. Like so many different potential side effects and adverse events that happen sometimes with medications. It doesn't happen with Rs. And the another thing that's just mind boggling and, and really interesting is, okay, so if, if, even if we hold it to the, the standard of okay, fifty percent improvement, okay, so Rs has a sixty seven percent success rate. If we, if we say that, you know, fifty percent improvement is, is the standard. Well, if we line that up to SSRIs, which is the, the, the typical standard for treatment of anxiety and depression. SSRIs have a lower success rate, significantly lower success rate. And not only that, but a higher adverse event rate, meaning what's higher than zero? Anything is higher than zero, right? But SSRIs, there's all kinds of adverse events and they have a lower success rate. So it's it's really kind of mind boggling to me why Rs isn't more well known, more frequently utilized, given those factors and so many more.

00:19:27 Shreya: Yeah. So it's not like, try it once and decide. It's more like building a relationship with regulation, like study measured data, informed and respectful of your body. And I, I was also into SSRI once and for me, it was like it actually didn't work. And because of SSRI, I developed insomnia and then they put me into a different medication to treat that. So yes, I fully agree with you. And also for the listeners who feels exhausted by their own anxiety, who is lying awake at night thinking, what if I'm just stuck like this? What would you want them to hear about their nervous system and about hope that is actually realistic?

00:20:16 Tauna Young: Yeah. So yeah, thank you for asking that. Um, okay, so this this device has FDA clearance specific to anxiety and insomnia, which is great because those kind of inevitably going to go hand in hand. A lot of times now, often it has many, many, many off label uses where it's really impactful, like depression. I mentioned fibromyalgia, pain, PTSD, so many other things. But you know, I've been what I've seen in in my patients clinical practice. I'm really glad that you asked me that, because I do think it's really important to set realistic, appropriate expectations of not only what benefits you can hope to receive, but when you can hope to receive them. Okay, so this is what I would say, um, with anxiety. A lot of people, not everybody, but a lot of people will will try Rs for the first time and they'll see instant benefits. Like they'll instantly feel a state of calm that they're unfamiliar with. Now, not everyone has that. So just because a person doesn't see it like in that first 30s doesn't mean that they won't see it. I've seen it being extremely impactful for people who didn't really see the benefits until like the third or fourth time that they used it. Okay. And then through continued use, you get that's when those, those effects could be long lasting because like I said, it kind of you kind of have to retrain the brain's default mode network to make that their new default setting. You know, like sometimes you change the settings on your, your television screensaver or your computer screensaver. That's what we're doing is we're changing the setting, but we're making that be the new default. Okay. So for the, for the effects to be longer lasting, I would say people should use it. Ideally, I'd say twice a day, every day for the first month and then reassess. Okay, now for insomnia. I have not seen the benefits of that show up right away with insomnia. People who use it every day generally will experience an improvement to their sleep quality within about two three weeks ish. So that one, it's it's very impactful. I have a lot of patients who previously took a sleep aid every single night who now either don't use it at all or they only use it, you know, four or five times a month. But but that is something that does require just a little bit of patience to see the benefits. It's usually like I said, it's probably like two or three weeks in of daily use for most people before they see the improvements to their sleep quality.

00:23:02 Shreya: That's really perfect. And thank you for sharing this with my audience. And this is truly another really amazing and a very helpful conversation, I think for my listeners and for me too. And if after this conversation, my listeners want to, uh, contact with you and want to know more about your work, then what's the best way?

00:23:22 Tauna Young: Yes, thank you for asking. Well, norawagner dot com is our website. We have a lot of great information in there. And I actually do have an ebook that I recently wrote that you can download for free on the website. If I know a lot of people, um, really like to understand kind of the ins and outs, the wise. The house of anything that they're using. And that's that's something that I really respect. I think people deserve that. And I, I think that all providers, clinicians should always honor that need of patients to understand why they're using something, what it does, how it works. So there's kind of some basic general information on my website, but there's also a book that you can download that that does a deeper dive for people who really like to geek out on the science and the technology in it. And, and that's a space that I love that geeking out space. And I, you know, invite everyone to join me in that space. It's, it's a lot of fun. And so that the book should give a lot of information. But if you go to norawagner Comm.com, you can, you can purchase one, a Rs device, or you can just learn more about it. I will say that, um, because of that FDA clearance, um, CS does require a prescription. So I have a process on the website where we you fill out a brief little form medical screening and we can prescribe it for you through our website, through that screening form. So we've got it so that it's a person can, um, get it, get it prescribed after just a brief screening on the website as well.

00:25:07 Shreya: Yes. And I will make sure to attach all these details and links below so that the listeners can find them easily and get in touch with you. And for my listeners, if this conversation opens something for you, maybe a new perspective, maybe a just a little relief, then take a break and let it land. You don't have to force healing. You get to support your system into it. And if you want more grounded, reimagined conversations like this, then follow the wellness reimagined. We're building a space where mental wellness is treated like a necessity and not as a luxury. And where the goal is not being perfect, it's being okay in your own body. I'm Shreya and this was the Wellness Reimagined. Until next time, be gentle with your nervous system. It's been working hard for you and do not forget to hit the follow button. Subscribe and feel free to share your thoughts because your ears deserve premium content. Thank you.