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I've done everything there is to do in a basketball program other than lead the basketball program and going back to the blacktop in first grade, all I've ever wanted to do is lead the basketball program.

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John Reynolds is entering his first season as the boys basketball head coach at Wando High School in Mount Pleasant, South Carolina.

He previously served as an assistant coach at his alma mater, the Citadel from 2022 to 2025 under his college coach, Ed Conroy.

Reynolds served on the staff at the University of South Carolina from 2017 to 2022, closing out his tenure as a special assistant to head coach Frank Martin and overseeing on campus recruiting.

Prior to that, he was an assistant coach at Presbyterian College for four seasons under longtime Blue Hose head coach Greg Nybert.

He served as interim head coach upon Nybert's retirement in the spring of 2017.

Reynolds started his coaching career in Mississippi at NCAA Division 2 Delta State for two seasons as an assistant coach.

As a player, John was a four year letter winner at the Citadel from 2007 to 2011 as a member of one of the winningest classes in school.

The Bulldogs gathered 52 wins in that four year span, including the program's last 20 win season in 20082009 While securing a postseason bid to the CollegeInsider.com tournament, Reynolds was named Scout Team Player of the Year twice and was a three time Southern Conference All Academic Team selection.

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You'll want to take some notes as you listen to this episode with John Reynolds, boys basketball head coach at Wando High School in the state of South Carolina.

Hello and welcome to the Hoop Heads podcast.

It's Mike Cleansing here without my co host Jason Sunkel tonight.

But I am pleased to welcome in John Reynolds, the boys basketball coach at Wando High School in the state of South Carolina.

John, welcome to the Hoop Heads pod.

Thank you Mike.

Appreciate you, appreciate you having me today.

Absolutely excited to have you on.

Looking forward to diving into all the interesting things you've been able to do in your career.

Let's start by going back in time to when you were a kid.

Tell me about some of your first experiences growing up with the game of basketball.

What made you fall in love with it?

Yeah, really from going back as far as I can remember, grew up in a, in a very sports centered house.

My mom was a college basketball player at the University of South Carolina and she was a girls high school basketball coach forever.

You know, my father played all kinds of sports, you know, himself and got into the ministry.

He was a Baptist preacher but also had two older brothers who were six and eight years older than me.

So they were well on their way, you know, into, into sports and their own things.

You know, by the time I came along and just kind of a, you know, a classic story of following them along is the, the little brother I was, you know, young enough to, where they weren't really beating up on me because there was an age gap.

They were kind of beating up on each other.

But you know, I was, I was always trying to play up, you know, with them, you know, and I think looking back, you know, how fortunate I was, you know, to kind of be exposed to that, you know, just playing with kids older than myself, you know, really all the time and very, very competitive house.

We played whatever was in season.

And you know, kind of interestingly those two older brothers, one ended up playing college baseball and the other ended up playing college football and I went with basketball.

So we were just kind of all over the spectrum.

We ended up with different passions but, you know, kind of kind of played those three sports growing up and, and enjoyed whatever was happening.

But always kind of had a, an extra little, extra little passion for basketball.

And you know, it was, it was as my parents say, looking back, it was always harder to get me out of basketball season than anything else.

So, you know, getting into high school, once I got to the, the 10th grade, I, I, my family moved, which, which kind of changed things for me a little bit, changing high schools and, and decided just to focus on basketball.

And I wanted to put everything I could into it and, and see if I can make myself a college basketball player.

And so maybe, maybe not the wisest decision for a 511 white guy, you know, who's also left handed.

Some, you know, maybe I could have been a middle, middle reliever or something, but, but no, it's, you know, I've always had just a tremendous amount of passion to compete.

Was blessed to grow up around the game and, you know, be exposed to some really good coaches and you know, ultimately was able to accomplish that, you know, through, through Ed Conroy at the Citadel, recruited me, offered, offered me a roster spot and, and that's all I needed.

That was a dream come true for me to, to be able to play Division 1 basketball.

So, you know, I come by pretty honestly.

It's, it's really, you know, for the most part, all of all I've ever known.

When you started to focus on basketball as a 10th grader, what did that look like for you in terms of trying to become a better player?

How much of it was you in the gym by yourself?

How much of it was pickup basketball?

How much of it was your AAU experience?

Just what did it look like for you once you decided?

I wanted to focus on hoops?

Yeah.

I mean, nothing.

What it looks like now for a 10th grader that decides, decides that, you know, pursuit, it's so different.

And one of the things about coaching is you come to realize how bad of a player you really were, I think.

And the things that you wish you had done differently, the things you wish you would have known, you know, that you needed to spend more time on.

I grew up in Columbia, South Carolina.

You know, pretty, pretty good basketball culture there when I grew up.

Just, just as far as grassroots go and everything.

And then my family and I moved, we moved out to Hattiesburg, Mississippi.

My dad took a job out there and you know, good athletes, some good players.

But basketball is really, really an afterthought there.

I mean, football was huge.

Baseball really, really big, really, really strong.

The high school I was at.

And basketball was just something that, you know, filled that the time in those Winter months, we needed to play indoors for.

For a little while, and so didn't have the resources, you know, as much.

Now with, of course, my mom being a coach and being exposed to, you know, different coaches and going to camps and.

And all that kind of stuff, you know, I had a pretty good base, but I really didn't have those figures in the community, you know, that were really basketball people to.

To drive development and some of the resources that kids these days have and that I hope that they, you know, have in my community now, those didn't really exist.

And then a.

You.

You know, I sound like I'm like, I'm old.

I'm 37 years old.

So this is, you know, early mid 2000s.

I mean, even then, AAU was like, I think there was maybe a couple teams in the state, you know, and it was.

If you weren't a top.

Top player in the state and you weren't getting invited to play on one of those teams out of Jackson right on New Orleans or, you know, Gulfport or whatever it was, you know, you didn't play until the next year came around.

And that didn't really hit me until, you know, I got to college and, you know, talk to other guys and we're around guys that were on, you know, those bigger AU team and, you know, that traveled and went to Vegas and played against each other and were, you know, I'm thinking, you know, I get in the locker room and I'm like, how these guys, they all, like, know each other.

You know, they've all.

They played against each other, and they're ones from Miami and one's from Texas.

And, you know, I just wasn't really exposed to that.

And so, you know, I just.

I just did what I knew, which was just go to the gym.

You know, I.

We had a church down the street that had open access, had a big gym, and I was in there every day that I could.

Every day that I couldn't get into the high school gym.

And I really just had to.

Had to come up with the workouts and do it myself, you know, and then eventually later in the afternoon, the day when the older men would show up and people would put, you know, have their pickup games, you know, I'd play all night.

And that's one thing I just.

I did just stay in the gym.

I didn't necessarily know what I was doing.

I probably didn't have the best guidance in the world, but I'd spend four or five hours in that gym, you know, every.

Every afternoon, you Know, in the night until it's time to go home.

Yeah.

It's interesting, I think, guys from your era and older, and I'm 55, and so my experience, I think, was probably somewhat similar to yours in that when I went and did my workouts and whatever.

Nowadays you look at the resources that kids have to be able to come up with different drills, different ways of improving your game.

And I always say, I had two workouts.

I had one I did by myself, and then I had one if I was lucky enough to maybe have somebody that wanted to shoot with me or play one on one, something that I would do with.

With a partner.

And I probably got really, really good at those workouts, but I'm not sure.

At a certain point, I think I probably plateaued in what I was getting out of that one workout that I was doing all the time without a whole lot of variance.

And I look back on, I'm like, man, I really was grinding at that one, that one workout.

It would have been nice to have some of the newfangled things that everybody has access to now just to mix it up and to do something a little bit different.

Just like you having to chase that ball around will make you a better shooter, you know?

Right.

That's for sure.

Yeah, there's no doubt about that.

When.

When it's not.

When it's not the doctor dish the gun.

That's right.

That's rebounding for you.

Yeah, you definitely.

And it gets you in shape.

Right.

You got to be.

You better chase the ball.

If you want to be efficient and.

Try to get shots, you're either gonna be a really good shooter or you're gonna be in really good shape.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Hopefully.

Hopefully a little bit of.

Hopefully a little bit of both.

But, yeah, it's just.

I mean, it's definitely.

It definitely was a different.

Definitely was a different era when it.

When it comes to just, Again, the way that you prepared yourself and the way you tried to go about improving and becoming a better player.

What influence did your mom as a high school basketball coach have on you as a player and your development when you think back to her influence.

Yeah.

You know, it's always things, you know, as you get older, you don't realize how you're being influenced at the time.

Right.

You have no idea.

It's your.

It's your little pocket of the world.

It's.

It's all, you know.

You know, and I think.

And even.

Even for my dad, I think just being in a house with two people in professions where they were charged with leading and teaching people.

You know, it's what they did, you know, in different forms, and very, very competitive, both of them, and.

And what they did.

And there was just an expectation, you know, third child age gap.

You know, the, The.

The house is already kind of set, right?

It's, It's.

It's rolling, right?

You just got to kind of fall in line with it and, and try to catch up and not even realizing, like, just the, the standard that was around me every single day of, you go to work, you work hard, you give your very best effort.

You are the standard for, for character, for integrity.

You're.

You're the example.

It's your job to lead people.

It's your job to bring people along with you.

I can't say that at any point those things were really ever even said to me.

It was just the way that it was.

You know, it's the way my brothers acted.

And I got a little sister, I should mention that she'd get mad with me about.

About not mentioning her, but.

But it's, it's the environment that, That I grew up in.

And now looking back, like, how blessed I was.

And you, and you, you know, you get older and, you know, you see that people came from all kinds of different backgrounds and maybe weren't blessed to.

To, you know, have that sort of structure in their house or those role models to look to.

But.

But, you know, I think, you know, the main thing is really from my mom was just the competitiveness, you know, fiercely, fiercely competitive, you know, sweetest woman in the world, you know, off of it.

And obviously I got to see the.

The mother's side, but, I mean, she was all business on the court, and she had a.

She had a stare that could, that could pierce, right?

And, you know, she.

She could hide it well at times, but.

But I knew just from being, you know, around her in practices and watching in the games, always prepared, always had an answer, you know, for.

For whatever was.

Was thrown at them in that game and just had a great, you know, love and, and passion for the game, you know, and my family moved around a little bit.

She took all kinds of different jobs.

It felt like every time she would.

She would take a rebuilding job, she would get them playing really well, and then, you know, something would happen, we would move or, you know, I'd go off to college and, you know, she'd step away for a year or two to do that, and she'd take over a new spot and start all over, you know, and.

And attack it with the same, the same amount of enthusiasm.

And so, you know, I think, I think that part is just, it's in my DNA, you know, to, to want to, want to lead people, to want to impact people.

A passion for the game and a competitiveness that, that frankly, it needs an outlet.

Right?

You gotta, you gotta put it somewhere.

And basketball is kind of the, the chosen route there.

Do you think that growing up watching your mom coach and all the things that you just described, did you know early on that you wanted the coach at some point?

Or were you one of those guys that was kind of focused on being the best player that you could be?

And then as you sort of saw your playing career winding down, that's when you turned to coaching?

Which, which one of those paths better describes you?

Yeah, I mean, I, I, I never thought about doing anything other than being around the game.

I really didn't.

You know, you're, when you're young, you're delusional and everything and you think you'll play forever.

But, but no, I always, I always kind of knew or thought that I would coach.

You know, had an interest at certain points in administration or, or, you know, I did a front office internship with a minor league team and maybe getting involved.

But I, my passion is for the players and being in the heat of battle.

That's what I love.

And I, I can remember I have a, my son now is seven years old.

He's in the first grade.

The, the genes are strong.

I mean, he is full speed ahead into everything.

But it took me back and I remember, I, I don't, you know, you, you remember kind of random things from childhood, just, just random snippets.

And I remember being his age, first grade, on the playground, and I just remember being disgusted with the kids, just running around on the court and the disorganization and like, this is a mess.

And I remember picking teams and making teams and, and literally drawing up plays in the sand and like, guys, like, we got to get it together.

Like, this is, this is awful.

You know, you got somebody kicking a soccer ball through the court and girls are doing cartwheels and it's like, no, we're having a game.

You know, And I think during that year in first or second grade, I think I organized a full league that had standings and everything.

Like, no, if we're going to play, we're going to play.

And so some people call that OCD or have other, you know, maybe a more derogatory term for it.

But, but I mean, really from, from birth you know, love being a part of a team, wanted to compete and I don't know, just kind of took to, took it on myself to, to organize and try to get the group moving in a, in a certain direction.

It's really interesting to me always to hear guys like you that sort of have, that even if you couldn't maybe have expressed it when you were 8, 9, 10 years old, that hey, I want to be a coach.

But certainly those tendencies of wanting to organize and wanting to draw up plays and kind of wanting to be in that leadership role, I think that's clearly a common path for people to get to coaching.

And I think when you do that, especially when you have a coach in your family, right, because you've seen kind of the life of what a coach looks like.

You've gotten a chance to be in the gym and be around practice and see that death stare that your mom has and all those things that kind of go along with.

Right.

Just being a coach and what that life is like.

And so I do think that that has a huge influence when you start talking about wanting to be around the game for the rest of your life and kind of do what someone else has done for you.

Let's go back to your decision to go to the Citadel and play for Ed Conroy and what the recruiting process was like for you.

For anybody who doesn't know much about the Citadel and being a military school and obviously that's a decision that clearly there's an extra layer of discipline and commitment that has to be made in order to go and play at the Citadel compared to just going to your normal everyday school.

So just talk about your decision making process and why you ended up choosing the Citadel.

Yeah, was.

It definitely wasn't highly recruited or anything like that.

You know, wanted to play, wanted to play in college.

Couldn't see myself just not playing after college.

And so you know, kind of talked about the pocket of the world I was in.

Wasn't.

Wasn't exactly a hotbed for recruiting either.

So you know, I think I was all conference, I think I was something all state, you know, down there in south Mississippi.

But you know, sent out, sent out the DVDs, you know, which is what we did back then and you know, to every, I think every cool in the socon for sure because I knew I wanted all my family's from South Carolina.

You know, I thought I want to go back that way to play.

But you know, anybody I could think of, you know, sent a bunch of films out and I was recruited lightly Division 2, Division 3.

Had some Division Threes really recruited me hard, some junior colleges, a lot of junior college, you know, ball there in Mississippi, Alabama.

But, you know, I was a. I was a naive kid.

You know, I turned my nose up at most.

At most of them, you know, I don't really want to do that.

And I think there were.

There were two schools in the SoCon that got back to me.

UNCG.

I think that I think was, you know, some token.

Some token mail there didn't have a whole lot of correspondence.

And then so going finishing up my senior year of high school, Spring Hill College had won me down on a visit down in Mobile.

And so was in the car with my dad.

I was going to go down there and play in front of the coaches.

Hey, you know, we want to decide if, you know, we're going to offer you, you know, we think.

We think we might want to offer some juco kids, but, you know, we like your film, blah, blah, blah, come down, play, visit campus.

So we're on the way down there and I'll never forget, on the way down, I get a call that I'm not expecting.

It's from edcon.

Hey, this is Ed Conroy at Citadel.

You know, that.

Done some.

His.

One of his assistants at the time, Andy Fox, who's now an assistant at George Mason's, been.

Been at Vanderbilt, army all over the place.

Really, really close friend of mine.

And he had kind of done the legwork and had some email correspondence with me and everything.

And they were trying to build a program there.

And I've got family I didn't miss.

My two older brothers went there.

A lot of family connections to the place.

Charleston's obviously wonderful.

Had a ton of respect for it, and it's Division one and, you know, said, hey, you know, kind of.

Kind of like your, like your background, like the intangibles.

He was trying to build a program, get it off the ground.

And what he wanted to do and what he did was, was very intentional about recruiting those borderline and borderline probably be generous for me, but borderline, you know, players who maybe weren't a scholarship guy at Division 1 level but.

But were the right fit and, and could help you.

And so he ended up offering me a roster spot.

I finished the visit to Spring Hill.

I probably went down there and played.

My dad laughs this day.

He's like, it's the best I've ever seen you play.

Because I knew I wasn't going there.

I. I mean, I, I didn't miss and they called me and said, well, you know, we.

We'll get back to you.

We still think we maybe want to sign this juco kid.

I'm like, I just torched your team.

Like, I played out of my mind, you know, and if you don't want to offer me, like, you know, whatever, I'm not going there anyway.

All I needed to hear from.

From.

From the Citadel was they were, you know, offering me a spot on the team is just give me a chance, you know, and, you know, everything he told me and one of the things that he really hit on in that initial conversation was, you know, kind of.

I had heard, you know, maybe you want to coach.

I said, yes.

Yeah, you know, I think.

I think I want to get into coach.

He said, well, you need to come to Citadel.

You need to, you know, get that diploma, get that degree, wear that ring, have that on your resume, you know, Division 1 basketball player, Citadel graduate.

And we'll do anything we can to help you, you know, prepare for your career while you're still in school and then help you afterwards.

And I can say this from that.

From that conversation when I was 18 years old, you know, riding in the car to.

To go visit a NAI school or whatever they are, you know, all of that has been true, you know, to this point, even to, you know, in the last few years, I was working for him back at the Citadel for a second time.

And so, yeah, it was.

And then.

And then in choosing it.

Still difficult, right?

Even though I kind of knew that's what I wanted to do.

I always draw back on my own experience when I was recruiting players at the college level, and you think, man, I hate these kids.

Like, why is it.

It takes them so long to decide and they wanted this.

And you think back to yourself, I waited until the last minute because you're always thinking, maybe something pops up, right?

But, you know, from that point on, you know, when I said, hey, I'm coming, you know, I appreciate the.

Appreciate the offer, you know, I'm in.

You know, it's.

I never really flinched at the other stuff.

As far as the.

The military stuff goes.

I. I had family that had done it, and I think, you know, a little bit of, like, the coaching sickness bug that we have.

There's.

There's a little bit of that in it, too, to where I wasn't sure I wanted just a normal college experience.

You know, I felt like that was, for me, like I wanted more.

I can do more with my time.

I don't need to just go to school and play basketball.

Like I, I can push myself.

You know, I can, I can maybe, maybe handle more than other people want to.

You know, I want to, I want to see what I can do.

And, and so a little, maybe a little bit off that way, but, but I appreciated what it offered.

I appreciated the challenge, you know, the discipline that it instills.

I appreciated the, the, the difficulties, the adversity.

It's.

It's something I think what the Citadel does more than, more than anything.

It.

It prepares you for hard.

It prepares you for real world challenges just earlier than other people get exposed to in different forms.

Right?

But, but college for a lot of people, maybe not athletes, because it's hard being a college athlete.

You know, I don't, I don't, you know, I don't take that lightly at all.

You know, to commit yourself to something, but you know, you're just.

You're familiarizing yourself with, with uncomfortability at an earlier age.

Right?

And so the things don't get easier for you.

You just get more used to dealing with them and you, you know how to push through.

And so I, I appreciated the part of it and, and it doesn't, it didn't hurt that I really did have a lot of familiarity with the school because I think, you know, going back and being an assistant there and having to recruit to there, the mystery of it is more off putting than anything for people.

They just don't know.

Right.

You just what am I doing?

What am I getting myself into?

What is this?

Why would I do that?

You know, what does it mean?

And so those questions and, and the, the types of people that it had produced, I had already seen those outcomes, right.

And I, I knew what it could do for people, especially people that want to stay in this region or the state.

And I had already seen firsthand the way that, that being an athlete there and having that degree could, could set you up.

And, and so, you know, I, I jumped in and, and never looked back and was.

It was the right thing for me.

What's one thing you told recruits while you were working at the Citadel about?

Hey, this is what the experience is like.

If you had to sum it up in a sentence, a paragraph of this is how it's going to be different from what the quote unquote normal college experience would be like.

How would you describe that?

Yeah, I mean, I think, I think a lot of it, you know, it goes back to.

These are values that you need to have anyway if you're going to be successful and they're just going to get reinforced, you know, do you have freedom at all times to roam about Charleston?

No.

Like, during the week, you're relatively locked down to campus.

But if you want to be successful in your time here and you want to be successful in life, what do you need to be doing on a Tuesday night anyway?

Right?

Like, you need to either be in the gym or you need to be studying, and you need to turn the light out at a decent time, and you need to wake up early.

You know, I think for us, the, The.

The appeal to it was we felt like we could get more out of our 24 hours than anywhere else in the country.

You know, our guys are mostly going to be done with class by 12.

It's a close campus.

We move quickly, we move efficiently, we just get more done, and therefore, we feel like we can develop you at a faster rate than anywhere.

But then the other thing, you know, for a lot of kids, and most kids that you recruit, you.

You get a few that are like, I want.

I got.

I crave, you know, discipline and hardship.

I, I want to push myself to the limit and maximize my potential.

Like, great.

You know, those are easy.

Most people don't.

Most people don't get it.

But, you know, you talked about earlier drawing back on your experiences as a player, which I think is.

Is so important.

I was part of the winningest, I believe, winningest class or winningest few years in school history there.

We had a fantastic group, and it was just the right.

It was the perfect storm of the right staff, the right.

The right kids, the right demeanors, the right skill sets.

You know, it just came together.

It was the type of group that could be successful there.

And so being hired back as a coach, like, well, how.

How did we do that?

Right?

Like, obviously, Ed knows, he.

He was the architect of it.

But, but why were our players, why were we the way that we were?

And when I thought about our locker room, it was.

It was a bunch of dudes who just love ball.

Like, period.

They were just hoop heads, right?

Like, we were just a bunch of guys that just loved basketball and loved to compete.

And from the recruiting standpoint, you know, I thought all of that other stuff that.

The military stuff, even school, being away from home, whatever it is, I.

What I thought in reflecting on my time there and what I told recruits and even our players, if you love basketball, none of that other stuff will.

Will bother you.

If you're here because of basketball and you're here because you think these are the right people and the right team, the right coaches, the right system to get you where you want to go, you're going to love it, and you're going to thrive, you know, because this place is about putting in the work and getting better.

Now, if you're about other things and other things are more important to you or, you know, way more heavily, which there's nothing wrong with that.

If you're.

If being more social is more important to you or whatever, whatever kind of interest, well, then those other things start to weigh on you a little bit.

But our thing was we wanted to create an environment where, you know, we were developing kids.

There was a passion for development.

They could see the results, and, you know, it was almost like a.

Like a.

Just a little basketball fortress in there.

Right?

And.

And I think that can be true in a lot of places.

But when I look back on those characteristics, like, did we have a whole bunch of kids?

I don't.

I didn't have anybody I played with that went into the military and served afterwards.

Right.

And they weren't poor cadets either, but they didn't know what they were getting into.

And.

But that was the one thing that united us.

And, you know, I think it was, you know, you have an escape in the gym, and if that's where you want to be and if that's truly what your passion is, hey, what.

What better place?

Because there's a lot of days you don't want to be in those barracks.

You'd rather be in the gym.

And if.

If being in the gym doesn't excite you, I'd imagine it.

It might get pretty gloomy.

But.

But yeah, I mean, that was.

And it.

It's funny, you know, some of the kids we recruited and going back and revisiting with them after they've been there, you know, it's.

I think that still kind of holds true.

You know, that was my theory going into it, you know, being an assistant there for the first time.

But I think the kids that really have a passion for the game, you know, those.

Those sort of traits carry over, and they're able to navigate it just fine.

It makes sense.

I think, again, when you.

When you start to look at the whole picture, right.

I would guess that most kids, when they come down to making that decision, even if they're not 100% sure that that's the environment that they want, they have to be at least intrigued by the environment in order to be able to make that decision.

I've had conversations with guys who have coached or been around, like, the Service academies too.

And it's kind of the same thing.

I'm always like, I'm always amazed by the maturity of somebody who chooses to put themselves in that kind of disciplined environment.

Right?

Because you think about where a lot of us are at age 18, not everybody.

That environment isn't for everybody and especially not people who are intentionally seeking that out.

And I think that, you know, it, it tends to attract the kind of people who again, even if they're not 100% in of man, I know for sure this is what I want.

There's still something about it in their, in their makeup as a human being that is, is attracting them to that even to consider it at all right now.

I think it's, we talked about, we talk about high, high achieving individuals, right?

It's campus full of high achieving individuals and their, their interests in their past can go a number of different ways, right?

Only 30, a little over 30% of graduates there go into the military and serve.

So you got this 70% like why are we there?

Well, we're on some sort of path where we're trying to separate ourselves and we're trying to do something great.

Right.

And you know, not a campus where you're, you're, you know, getting back in the bed at three o' clock in the afternoon and taking a nap.

You know, that campus is alive, people are moving because everybody there is there to do something.

Right.

We're not, we didn't choose this to get nothing out of it.

Right.

And so again, you know, sometimes our form is basketball, but you know, we've had successful engineers, lawyers, you name it, right.

Agents, all kinds of, all kinds of different professions have come through there.

But that's, that really the, you know, the common thread, a little, little extra drive, maybe, maybe a little bit more maturity.

Although, you know, a locker room's a locker room, but you know, just maybe, maybe people that have that extra itch to, to really go do something.

All right, so go back to your time.

There's.

Are you having conversations throughout your four year career with Coach Conroy about the basketball coaching side of it and what that's going to look like when your four years are done and you're graduating and then when you get to the point where you're ready for that versus job search, what does that looks like?

So kind of talk about the conversations that led up to that, that first job search when you get done.

Yeah, we didn't wait.

I was coaching while I was playing as my teammates like to, like to nag on me.

About um, you know, we had a really, really close group and I played, I came in at the same time as really the two of the best guards, the best guard and another top, whatever you want to rank them in school history.

Um, I had three, the three guard spots for three four year starters.

All in, all in my class.

So maybe a terrible time to come in because those guys are really good.

But no coach gave me a lot of responsibility, you know, even as a freshman.

And then, and then definitely moving in, you know, in the subsequent years, you know, I really got to where I ran our scout team and, and I really, I ran it.

You know, I got, we got with the assistance but.

But we were running the other team stuff better at times than, than, than they were.

And then, you know, gave me some, I'd have some scouting responsibilities even during the game as a player.

You know, I think one year it was the opposing teams, bigs personnel, hey, like this is what you're watching and timeouts, whatever, you know, if you need to put something in somebody's ear, you notice something, you know, tell us play calls, you know, any of that.

So they really helped me that way, really start thinking as a coach and you know, which was tremendous for me at the time.

And then even before then, hey, let's, you know, season's over.

Summers were different then than they are now.

Now you keep the kids all summer.

Basically.

We were even a little bit ahead of the curve back then for our level.

I mean we were there.

I can't remember exactly, but we'd be there for about a month.

You know, maybe it was June that we had guys down for workouts, but you know, back then it was pickup and lifting weights.

You weren't allowed to do anything, organized activities on the court.

But you know, then it was sitting down, hey, let's see what the summer looks like.

You know, these are the camps you need to go work.

These are the contacts you need to make.

You know, these are the right areas.

So I mean even going back now, I mean, just a couple of those summers, hey, you need to go work Coach Wooten's camp up at Frostburg.

And I did that three summers in a row in college.

And I mean that's something that's, that's still paying me back.

You know, some of the, some of the coaches I met, of course, you know, Coach Wooten, the original Coach Wooten up there and you know, getting to know Joe and you know, that whole crew and you know, they'd have all the D2 and D3 coaches and high school coaches from the area, you know, things like that, going to work, five star.

So, you know, Ed and guys like Andy Fox and Doug Novak and those guys, those guys, you know, helped get my foot in the door and you know, really, maybe, maybe things that.

I don't know if I got a job immediately out of any of those things.

But, you know, certainly as you continue down, you know, you, you call a recruit and you go, oh, you know, I, I worked with your coach at camp, you know, 15 years ago, and they were, they were, you know, kind of strategically helping, you know, put me in those places where the.

This is where you need to be.

And, and so I, I didn't know, you know, my mom was a high school coach.

I didn't know anything about, you know, getting into college coaching.

I just knew that's what I wanted to do.

And the kind of backtrack really made up my mind, you know, my freshman year.

Like, I love this, like, I love this level.

I love the attention to detail.

I love the passion, I love the arenas.

I love the seriousness of it.

Like.

Like this is it, you know, so made up my mind that point.

Like, I.

College basketball is where I want to be.

And so, yeah, so I actually, I, My senior year graduated.

I played my last year for Chuck Drizzell.

So we were too good at the Citadel.

We had.

Ed ended up taking the job at Tulane from there and, you know, did.

Did the whole thing, man.

Did the whole search and trying to get GA spots and trying to get on different places.

If I remember, I maybe talked to Ed and those guys about a spot at Tulane, but ended up taking a job down at Delta State University as a grad assistant.

I think I maybe had one or two others.

South Alabama, something like that.

But just after talking with people, it was like, look, you go Division 2, you can get your feet wet and recruiting, you can coach on the floor.

You know, you're not just a glorified ga, you know, they're counting on you to work.

And, you know, decided that was maybe the best path to, to just go ahead and start working.

You know, get my graduate degree and.

And, you know, get in gyms and get on the road and recruit and get on the flooring and coach.

And that was all good until, you know, end of my first year, head coach got fired.

So welcome.

Welcome to the profession.

Right, you're right there.

There it is.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, one year.

Why not?

Let's go ahead and get right to it.

But then, you know, probably one of the best, best Things that happened to me, you know, from then they had to hire a guy and I had no guarantees.

I had a job.

I think that year, the final four was in New Orleans and, and Ed and those guys were at Tulane.

I think I spent like two weeks down in New Orleans because I was like, I don't know if I got anything to go back to, you know, I'll just, I'll just hang out with you guys down here at Tulane.

But Delta State ended up hiring, hiring.

Jim Boone was a long time, really, really successful Division 2 coach.

You know, had been Eastern Michigan, Robert Morrison, Division 1.

He's kind of known now as Pacline and motion offense guru.

And he was just tremendous for a young coach, you know, to work for.

Just incredibly organized, just a pros pro, right.

Knew what he wanted to do, had his system and probably one of the best teachers of teachers, you know, that I've been around, right.

You know, taught me things that I had never even thought about, you know, just being efficient with language and, you know, being able to command a room and command a group and not talk too much, but get your point across and all of those things.

And so, you know, that was my first lesson.

And sometimes coaches getting fired, it's not a bad thing, right?

You know, some good stuff can come out of it.

And so, you know, luckily for me, you know, Jim kept me on and, you know, it was just, just awesome.

Just crash course into college coaching to be able to work for him for a year and, you know, really, you know, prepared me for, for moving on and becoming a full time assistant.

Was there anything that surprised you when you first got the job about being a college coach or do you feel like your experience at the Citadel kind of prepared you and clearly again, you grew up in a cow, in a coaching household, but was there anything that you kind of were like, oh man, I didn't realize that this was a part of the job or I didn't realize this was as big a part of the job, you know, when you got that first experience.

Yeah, I wouldn't say that part because I loved it.

I love the work.

I was like, you know, my job is to coach basketball and recruit, you know, that's okay.

That's what I love to do, you know.

Yeah, it's pretty good deal.

I'll take it.

You know, not as much that side of it, I think.

Just being on the other side, you know, dealing with a different team and dealing with different players and realizing they don't have the same, they don't tick the same way you do.

You know, you got to learn them.

And.

And the locker rooms aren't the same.

I talked about Mike.

I had a.

You know, I was in a bubble.

I. I would.

I had a tremendous group at the Citadel.

Like, we were.

We had eight.

Eight in our graduating class on the basketball team.

And.

And it was just a very tight group.

And I said it before that.

Loved basketball and just wanted to be in the gym and wanted to be around each other, and just like, that's all we knew, you know, and then you go to a new place and, you know, the kids are in the gym and practice ends and they all go back to their dorms, you know, and it's like, that was foreign to me, you know, I thought we all wanted to hang out together.

I thought we were going to be in the gym all night, you know, and so, you know, I think that was, you know, my kind of first experience is like, no, every.

Every kid you coach is not gonna.

In fact, hardly any of them are gonna be just like you.

Right?

You know, or cut from the same cloth, you know, like.

Like my group was.

And, you know, I think probably early on, you know, I probably, you know, struggled to reach him.

Like, struggled to get through to him, because I couldn't relate to him.

You know, I couldn't relate to somebody not wanting to work as hard as I did or, you know, my teammates did.

And so, you know, and then.

And then going back and looking for those things and knowing, okay, now as a head coach, you know, or as an assistant, that's how they're recruiting.

What types of kids do I want to coach?

You know, who.

Who are my type of players?

Who gels with me?

Who do I get through to?

And so that was.

That was probably more the interpersonal part of it.

Not so much, you know, leading a drill or leading a scout or.

Or being prepared or any of that, but, you know, getting to know that you're going to have a team of 15 guys and they're all going to be different, and.

And.

But it's your job to get through to.

To each and every one of them.

That's a great point.

I know that's something that.

When I think back to the start of my coaching career, that was something that I really struggled with, was trying to figure out, hey, these guys aren't wired the same way that I was wired.

Not every guy is going hard every single day in practice just because that's what they're supposed to do or that's what they want to do or they want to get better, there.

There might have had to be some.

Some motivation from the coach to be able to get them to where they needed to go.

And you had to, as you said, figure out what makes different guys tick.

And it took me a while to be able to figure that out.

And I don't know if accept is the right word, but just realize that you have to kind of meet guys where they are to get the most out of them.

And sometimes when you expect every single player to be wired in the same way you.

Way you were, especially if, again, if you were competitive and you were a hard worker and you're all the things like you're describing, not every kid, as you said, is going to be that type of kid.

And so you still have to figure out, how can I get to that player and give them everything that I have and make them into the best player that they can possibly be and get them to, you know, to reach their potential to help our team?

And I think that's not always.

Again, it's not always easy to do.

I think it's an insightful way to.

To look at it and think about it earlier in your career, because I think a lot of players struggle with that, especially if you've had success on the court and if you're.

If you're wired in a certain way, you kind of walk into coaching and think, man, it's going to be easy to coach guys like me.

And it probably is, right?

If you have a kid that you think that you see yourself in that kid, you're like, oh, man, I get.

I get what this.

I get what this kid's about.

It's easy for me to coach it.

It's the kid who's maybe the polar opposite of you that again, brings certain strengths to the table, but just has to be.

Has to be reached in a different way.

And I think that's.

Again, it's a really interesting.

It's a really interesting thing that I think a lot of coaches who are players go through is trying to.

Trying to figure out and find out, hey, how can I get to.

How can I get to these guys and get the most out of it?

Even though they're not wired exactly the way that.

Exactly the way that I'm wired.

So after the experience at Delta State and tell me how you get to Presbyterian.

Yeah, it was.

It was interesting.

You know, I'm finishing up.

So it's year two of, like, not having a job in the off season because, you know, my, My GA thing was up and you know, was.

Was hoping to get a, you know, full time assistant spot, but you know those, those times are never really fun.

But, but my experience has always been, you know, and things like that, you know, it's.

Sometimes it can, it can feel like, man, like what, what am I gonna do?

You know, it's.

I've been there a few times and then, and then it just comes in waves.

So I think I was sitting around with nothing, you know, making calls and Jim was working for me and trying to get me on certain places.

And then, you know, within a span of I think three days, I had the Presbyterian thing came open.

I was.

Ed had a spot on his staff, I think off the court came open and then went and actually interviewed with, with Josh Shirts up at LMU back when he was there, which were, you know, three really good opportunities, but just through some, some mutual, mutual contacts.

And it was actually Brook Savage was working at, was working at Presbyterian.

Another camp thing.

I'd actually never thought about that until I started talking to you.

That was one of the camps.

So I slept on Brooks's couch at University of Tennessee working camp one summer when he was a GA there.

He had been a student assistant when Ed and Andy Fox were on Buzz Peterson staff at Tennessee.

So there's the, there's the coaching community at work for you.

But known Brooks a little bit, you know, from being a.

We're both kind of Columbia, South Carolina guys.

And you know, he called me and said, hey, you know, I'm leaving PC.

I think he was actually joining Coach Wade staff at, at Chattanooga at the time.

You know, coach needs to hire somebody, doesn't pay a whole lot, you know.

Would you be interested?

I'm like, absolutely.

And so long story short, end up, end up taking the job there at Presbyterian, which man, I was on top of the world.

I think is 24 years old.

I think at the time.

It's a little bit different now.

I think at the time I was the youngest Division 1 assistant in the country, you know, and I'm going, man, like this is, this is easy right now.

I thought I had it made.

I think I was making $12,000 a year plus, plus housing.

But man, you know, I, I thought I was like Shaka smart, you know, being able to, to climb the ranks that fast, right?

And live in living good old Clinton, South Carolina.

But.

But no, it was, it was a tremendous opportunity for me, you know, to, to get into college basketball and not far from home.

I've been really blessed, you know, since then as I Said majority of my family's in south or all of my family is in South Carolina to, to just remain in the state, which is not something I really ever thought would be the case when you choose a career in basketball, you know, but, but worked there for, for Greg Nybert, who was really successful there for a long time, especially in Division two Days.

Um, you know, kind of, kind of built that program into the, the transition Division one.

And, and it was a.

Look, we had three assistants and that was it.

Right.

So I was the third assistant by name, but I was also the GA and the director of ops and the video and do the laundry and do everything.

But I loved it and that was extremely valuable experience for me.

You know, I think the one thing that I've kind of, I prided myself on and I think is really, really prepared me as I've taken, you know, subsequent steps in my career is, man, I don't think there's an aspect of a basketball program that I have not touched or been responsible for, you know, at some point.

And you know, I think those are the times when, you know, going back to, you know, what drives you as a player and what drives you to make certain decisions, you know, if you don't have passion for it, there's a lot of people that want to get into coaching, right?

But you can't tell me if you don't have passion, if you're someone that doesn't have a tremendous amount of passion for it, you're going to take a job in Cleveland, Mississippi at Delta State University as a grad assistant, you know, and then go work for, you know, $12,000 a year at Presbyterian College in, in Clinton, South Carolina, and do everything under the sun, work your tail off and live in a little tiny off campus apartment, you know, But I, I was having the time of my life, you know, not, not one day did it ever feel like work.

And you know, it was, you know, you pinch yourself and say, hey, I'm a, I'm a Division 1 basketball assistant.

Man.

That's is.

This is, this is pretty cool.

I think that the passion that you describe, right, and the ability to look at what you're getting to do every single day.

There's so many guys that describe John same way that you just described in terms of I didn't feel like I was working, right?

That, yeah, I'm in a tiny apartment or I'm making no money or whatever it may be.

It's certainly not the glamorous life that when people in the general public hear, hey, I'm a college basketball coach.

Your story and what you're doing in the early parts of your career is not what most people are picturing in their mind, right?

When somebody says, hey, I'm a college basketball coach, that's not what.

That's not what they're picturing.

And yet, at the same time, I've talked to so many guys that have expressed a similar sentiment to what you just did, that, look, I know I wasn't making any money.

I know it wasn't living a glamorous life, but I was doing exactly what I wanted to do, and I knew that I was in the right place for me because of, again, how much I loved it.

And then that goes even further to what you were talking about, where you said that you've touched every aspect of a basketball program, right?

So you're talking about all the administrative tasks and things that, again, people on the outside don't see, right?

It's not just you show up at practice and you coach the game and you're on game night, you're sitting on the bench.

And there's so many other things that go into running a successful program.

And I don't care what level of basketball you're on that players, parents, fans, people just don't see.

If you're not in the coaching profession, you don't understand what it's all about.

And so to be able to maintain the passion that you have for coaching when you're doing all those things, not just the basketball coaching, but all the other administrative tasks that it takes in order for a program to be successful, and you can do that again when you're making next to no money, when you're living in conditions that, again, when you look back on them now, you're like, man, it was.

It's pretty cool that I was able to survive and, and make that work on that salary in that particular place where I was living and still look back on it fondly as an experience that you had that you got to grow and, and, and be able to, to learn in your profession.

I think what you talked about right there with Presbyterian, where you only have three assistants on your staff, right?

Where you get thrown a whole lot of things on your plate that maybe if you had been at a bigger school, at a bigger staff, that you wouldn't have had the opportunity to do.

I know a lot of Division 3 guys will tell me, you know, starting out As a Division 3 assistant, you're doing every single thing right.

You have to be involved in this, that.

And they Take those experiences and then go with them as they build on in their career.

And obviously, that's what you did as you.

As you moved on to your next stop at South Carolina.

So talk about your experience there with Coach Martin and just what it was like to.

To be in that environment.

And again, what you took maybe from Presbyterian into that job that helped you to succeed there.

Yeah, and I'll.

Even if I.

If I can go backwards just.

Just for a second there, you know, I.

Sure.

I think those.

You see a lot of people, a lot of coaches kind of flame out, you know, during that time, right.

They decide, this is not what I want to do.

I want to make more money.

I want to do this.

And there's nothing wrong with that, but I think when you're following your passion, you're not caught up in what you're getting out of it, Right.

All of your focus is on what am I putting in, what am I contributing, whose lives am I touching, whose games am I helping?

And just an appreciation for just being able to be a part of it.

And I think you can kind of lose that when your focus is on what's in it.

For me, I go back, I didn't make any money there.

I didn't deserve to make any money.

What.

What monetary value was I bringing?

You know, I had a resume of nothing.

I was at a small college that was probably profiting nothing for the college.

I wasn't worth it yet, you know, and I think not.

Not to sound like an old, old guy yelling at a cloud, but, you know, I think it's the.

It's the.

It's.

The beautiful thing about it sometimes is those are the days where people kind of get weeded out of the profession, and the profession at times does a good job of.

Of cleaning that up.

If.

If your heart's not in the right place, if your focus is not.

Not in right place, if it's on your salary at the time or the.

The lifestyle or what you're getting out of it, you're not going to be fulfilled.

And that's the way it should be, because you're not in it for those reasons.

And so it was a very productive.

That was my time to put together my resume, Right?

Like, you want to make money, you want to make the next step.

Well put in the work.

You know, come.

Come up with your value.

You know, do something valuable before you deserve it.

And, and, you know, on that note, you know, we get.

We get let go or Coach.

Coach steps down at Presbyterian and, you know, they Asked me to be the interim head coach.

You know, I was 27, 28.

You know, I'm like, sure, what.

What else am I going to do?

Right?

You know, during that time, it was kind of odd.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, you think you're a head coach, go ahead.

And it was a great time for me because it made me, you know, that.

And what I told him was, look, I'll only do it if I'm.

I want to be considered for the job.

Just give me an interview, right?

If I get an interview, I'll do it.

And they said, yeah, you know, absolutely.

You're.

You know, you're a candidate, which I didn't really believe, but, you know, it made me prepare.

It made me put my thoughts on paper.

It made me, okay, like, here's my chance to run a program.

What is my program?

What does my program look like?

And, you know, it.

It went the distance.

I actually ended up being in the final group, and it went all the way to May 22nd.

I mean, I went out and recruited.

I held workouts.

I signed two players as an interim, which I wasn't really sure about.

They told me to go ahead and do it.

So I'm trying to get the job.

I'm like, yeah, I'm gonna sign some kids.

So it goes all the way to May 22nd.

They hired.

Finally hired Dustin Kearns, who they should have hired.

He was coming off of really good, you know, run as an assistant at Wofford, and ended up doing a very good job there.

But it's.

It's June and I'm out of a job.

And, you know, I've got four years Division one, you know, experience.

I'm thinking, you know, at this point, I can.

I can bring value to somebody.

Right.

I think I was an associate head coach there for the last two years.

But, you know, it's June.

Most of the jobs, the carousel is kind of done at that point.

And, you know, I've got roots in Columbia.

You know, my wife, we got married during my time at Presbyterian.

She was in law school at University of South Carolina School of Law, so spent quite a lot of time in Columbia and would drop in and practice.

Got to be close with their operations guy, Andy Ashley, usc, and, you know, had.

Had kind of struck up a friendship with.

With Frank For.

For whatever reason, you know, we were.

We were kind of recruiting some kids on the same AU teams, and we just run into each other a lot and just, you know, always had a good conversation.

Anybody that knows Frank just knows, you know, he's one of the best to sit with during an AU game or whatever.

It's.

It's never a dull moment with him.

And, you know, was going.

Just going around to practices and visiting with people and, you know, they're coming off a Final Four.

You know, it's just incredible.

I mean, I grew up a Gamecock fan in Colombia, and that.

That level of success was just unheard of.

And, you know, I'm sitting in the gym and they've already got their new guys on campus.

And he's like, hey, look, if I want you, I think you deserve a job.

I think you deserve to get paid somewhere.

But, you know, if you got nothing, you know, we'll.

We'll figure something out.

Just come on, We'll.

I'll figure out something for you to do, you know, but, you know, just let me know if nothing else works out.

Well, I hear that.

I'm like, forget anything else.

Like, I'm in, you know, just like.

Just like my.

My playing career starting at the Citadel, like, that's all I needed to hear.

I mean, you're coming off of a Final Four and, you know, just goes to show, you know, I don't know.

I would like to think I'm.

I was a little bit more than a charity case, but Frank, I mean, certainly didn't have to do anything for me.

He had a full staff.

They're coming off a Final Four.

There's.

I mean, how many of you, thousands of coaches would have gone there to volunteer, you know, for.

For a guy of his reputation, with the amount of success that they had had, and, and so just really kind of out of thin air just created a spot for me on the staff.

And, you know, my first year there was just add value in any way that I can.

You know, don't come in.

Don't mess it up.

Right?

They get a good thing going.

Just kind of observe and.

And find ways that.

That I can help.

You know, is there an assistant coach I can get with and.

And cut up some extra film?

Is there a.

Is there an area, you know, of the game that I can chart?

You know, is there.

Is there something I.

What.

What can I do, you know, without being.

Being the new guy that's, you know, coming in hot and.

And so, you know, we did and kind of kind of carved out a really a niche for me and, you know, my roles there kind of progressed as the years went on.

But.

But man, forever.

Forever grateful to him and Frank, I mean, there.

He's.

He's a mentor.

He's a brother.

He's.

He's all that stuff.

You know, our families are extremely close to this day, but.

But always grateful for him for.

For kind of taking me in off the.

Off the street, so to speak, there in.

In a difficult time.

I love when you talk about adding value, right?

And I think that it's one of the things that has been a theme throughout the podcast and different interviews and people that we've talked to.

One thing that always comes up, right, is that ability to.

To do your job, especially as an assistant coach, right, where you're.

You're bringing value to your head coach and to the program to try to make that program better in any way that you can.

And I think your story is very, you know, illustrates really well the concept of you've got to do your job in the spot where you're at as well as you possibly can without having one eye looking the other way for the next job, right?

You got to go above and beyond in your current role.

And when you do that, that's what's going to create that next opportunity for you.

Whether that's again, going to a camp, whether that's doing something extra, whether it's just, again, bringing that enthusiasm every day.

Whatever it is, if you bring the best to your current role, that's what's going to get you your next opportunity.

And I think that your story really illustrates that really well, because what you've done is you've built relationships with people because of the work ethic, because of what you've brought to the table.

Regardless of whether you were making zero money, whether you were making your $12,000, whatever it is, you didn't look at it as, hey, this is the role.

Whatever.

You're just.

You're doing a job that you love, and when you do that, people notice it.

And then when the next opportunity comes to you, boom.

All of a sudden, here you are, and Coach Martin's taking you in and finding a spot for you and giving you another opportunity.

And then you make the best of that, and it just kind of feeds on itself.

But I think sometimes you can get caught up in.

And this goes back to what you talked about, right?

Weeding out of the profession that somebody who's coaching and starts out in the humble beginnings like you did, right?

And they look around, they're like, come on, man, I was a Division 1 player.

You know, I'm.

I'm better than this, or I deserve, you know, a bigger job or, or a more glamorous job or this or that.

And Then those are the people that usually, again, if, if you're, if you're got one foot out the door already thinking that you should be at the next job, that's when things, I think, tend to go haywire because again, you gotta be a star in your role, and then that's gonna get you the next.

The next role, if that makes any sense.

No, I mean, I think, I think you're spot on.

And, And I can say this with, With a hundred percent certainty.

And it's, it's.

There's people that have told me and would disagree that it's, you know, hurt my career to this point, but I've never, I've never taken a job for anything other than my excitement for that job and, you know, never for what I could get out of it or where it could take me.

You know, I think everywhere I've ever been, I've thought I could work here forever.

I could, I could retire here, right?

Like, and that sounds crazy when you're taking jobs at 23 years old or whatever, but, but I think, you know, that's the, that's the necessary level of, of commitment that you, that you should have, you know, first to the, the person who hired you and then.

And second to your team.

And that's, you know, I think that's where I've always just wanted to be part of a team.

I, I want to be part of a group.

I identify strongly with that group that I'm a part of, and I don't want to be a part of any other group, you know, until they tell me, you can't work here anymore, you know, or whatever.

Whatever it is.

And, you know, that's not to jump ahead, but that's why I wanted this, this, this job that I, this step that I took in my career was really the hardest decision because it was one of the only times I've really just voluntarily, like, had to be like, I'm.

I'm leaving this place and, man, it's incredibly, incredibly difficult for me, you know, personally.

And, and don't.

I have no disrespect for anyone, you know, that does take a job to further their career or whatever it is.

It's just probably more of a.

Of a pitfall of mine than anything else.

But now I just.

Just very grateful for the people I've been able to work for.

And, and, you know, I just always felt like my loyalty is, is to them.

And, and this is my group, you know, and these are the guys that I'm sticking with and, and you know, to truly, truly be there with.

With both feet in the entire time.

Let's jump into the decision.

After South Carolina, you go back to your alma mater.

You're coaching at the Citadel.

Yeah.

Now you get an opportunity to coach at the high school level.

Tell me about the decision to.

As you said throughout the conversation, right.

Your dream was to be a college basketball coach, and that's something that you got to do for more than a decade, and now you get an opportunity to coach at the high school level.

I know one of your motivations was to be a head coach, get some of those head coaching reps, but just talk about the decision, what was easy about decision, what was difficult about the decision, and kind of, when did you start thinking about, hey, maybe this is a possibility, something that I want to look into?

Was it specifically the Wando job?

Was it, hey, I'm going to start looking for an opportunity to run a high school program?

Just take me through your thought process.

Yeah.

So I'm going back, you know, leaving South Carolina, you know, was extremely grateful.

The chance to.

To go back to Citadel places I care so much about, and work for Ed, who I think, you know, a ton of, and we had a great deal of success there, you know, as a player and, and really, you know, as an alum.

You're.

You're proud of your.

Your school and, you know, want to do everything we could to.

To get it back, you know, to get it.

To get it rolling and, you know, fully.

Fully invested in that and love working there, love the institution, love what it represents, Love Charleston.

You love raising my family here.

Wife loves it here.

You know, the, The.

The whole thing.

And so it.

It.

It was truly this thing kind of came out of.

Came out of nowhere for me.

It really did.

You know, I think late in the year, February, March, they.

They made a move over at.

Over at the high school, and through some kind of mutual contacts, I happened to go to school with some of the administration at the high school, and they just kind of reached out, you know, would I have any interest in.

Initially, we're, we're kind of winded down our season.

Yeah.

I'm being nice because I know the people, you know, I'm like, yeah, you know, I don't know, like, can we talk after the season?

And they're like, yeah, you know, sure.

And.

And didn't think a whole lot more about it.

And so, yeah, we finished the year up and, And.

And they want to talk, and we come in, so.

And I, you know, I meet with the Principal.

And.

And first off, he.

He was tremendous.

Like, just awesome.

Like, blew me away.

And more than anything, just very, very aggressive in.

Hey, we think you might have some interest in this.

We haven't been as good as we want to be for a little while now.

Like, we're ready.

We're ready to do something.

We really want to.

Like, their aggression was the first thing.

Like, wow, they.

They really want to be good, right?

Like, they're.

They're trying to do something with basketball here.

And so that was the first part of it.

That's what kind of.

Kind of drew me into it.

I did feel that I was ready to be a head coach.

Just, you know, it's just one of those.

Almost like one of those gut things, you know, I loved my job.

I had a tremendous amount of responsibility at the Citadel.

You know, I did a whole lot.

I basically ran.

You know, I ran our offense.

You know, I was heavily involved in every aspect, but, you know, you just.

It's.

It's like time to spread your wings, right?

It's just.

I felt like I had done.

Going back to earlier parts of our conversation, I've done everything there is to do in a basketball program other than lead the basketball program, you know, and going back to the.

To the blacktop in first grade.

All I've ever wanted to do is lead the basketball program.

It's just.

It's just.

I think it's that.

It's that itch, you know, and so, you know, the more you start to think about it, I never totally ruled high school out, you know, but college basketball was my passion.

But I did always think, you know, certain spots you go, well, if I went high school route, like, that'd be a good place, right?

You.

You always think of those few.

But it would.

It'd have to be the right conditions, right?

I don't want to just be a.

A career high school coach just for the sake of it.

Like, it.

It'd have to be a great spot.

And.

And really, this spot, it.

It checked all the boxes.

It's a massive high school.

It's been.

It's.

It was the biggest high school in the state for a long, long time, recently split and made another 5A high school.

So, you know, the.

The numbers are there.

It's an outstanding community.

My family loves being here.

The school is five minutes down the street.

I think 10 years straight, they've been rated the number one high school in the state for academics.

It's just got a tremendous culture.

My kids started in first grade.

We were Blown away with just the school and the experience that our son and daughter had going to school there.

And it's like, well, this is a community where, like, we want to be, you know, and, you know, I get a chance to.

To lead the basketball program and take on a challenge with people who are really supportive of that vision and, you know, told me all the right things.

Hey, we want this to be yours.

We don't want to.

We don't want you to adapt to us.

We want you to bring your style in here and do it, like, go make.

Make the changes, attack it any way you want to.

Um, and.

And then, you know, as an aside, I think on the personal side of it and the purposeful side of it, I kind of talked about my experience in high school.

And, you know, we've had a lot of good players come out of South Carolina, but I think there was an opportunity to add to, like, the grassroots development here and really have an impact on basketball in Charleston, in the low country area as a whole.

And.

And, you know, just kind of all of those things coming together, the right time, you know, a place that we love, the right school, the right people, at the end of the day was just something that I felt, you know, I owed it.

I owed it to myself and.

And everybody close to me to.

To go see what we could do with it.

But.

But, you know, as I said before, the hardest part was leaving the Citadel.

I mean, it was.

It's one of those things, like, two things can be true, right?

I want this job, and I don't want to leave my other job.

You know, I want them both.

You know, good place.

And.

Yeah, and it's.

And it's.

You know, there.

There are some.

Everybody complains and talks about the changes in college basketball, and everybody just assumes, you know, people are trying to get out.

And.

And, you know, there.

There are facets there.

There's part.

Parts of that that are true, but really, it was much more about just kind of where I was in my career and the opportunity I saw to kind of build something of my own.

So when you take the job, what are some of the things that, as you look at how you want to build your program, what are the first steps to doing that?

I'm assuming you meet with the players and talk to them and find out a little bit more, start looking at film and that kind of thing.

But what were the first steps that you felt like you had to take in order to a, first understand where the program was, and then, B, start to get it moving in the right direction.

Yeah.

I think before anything, you know, I like to think it's the old.

The corny thing about.

About being a.

Being a thermostat, right?

Not.

Not a thermometer.

I think bringing in the energy and just creating something right off the bat that people want to be a part of.

That was my main thing.

Make it fun to be in the gym, make it attractive to be part of our basketball program.

Build something starting with just yourself, that people want to join.

And that was my first thing, right, because we're trying to build basketball here.

They've had a ton of success in all kinds of different sports.

The basketball thing has eluded them from low.

It just hasn't been that popular of a thing.

And.

And so that was the first thing.

Just set the tone, come in with the right energy and.

And be something that wants to attract people and that people want to be a part of.

And I think we accomplished that, like, right off the bat.

I mean, I. I don't know.

I have had a gym full of kids for six months.

My biggest adjustment, one of them is that, you know, before you have tryouts, you don't truly have a team.

So all these kids are on your team, you know, until you cut them.

And so that.

Yeah, that was one of it.

You know, I've seen all kinds.

I mean, we've.

But it's been great.

I mean, it's been great.

Our numbers have been tremendous.

It's been what I thought.

We've got a ways to go.

We're very, very, very, very, very young, which I enjoy because it gives me a group, you know, that I can work with and I can mold.

And if I'm be honest with you, the one thing that.

That did turn me off about college basketball in the last few years is, is that development process.

You know, that's what my program as a player was built on.

That's what I enjoy the most about coaching.

I really enjoy being on the court, getting down there and sweating with the kids, putting in the work with them and making them get better.

You know, like, as long as they.

They bring the work ethic, like, you and I are in this together, and we're going to get better.

Well, nowadays you do that in college basketball, and you don't see it.

You don't.

You don't see the fruits of your labor, you know, and they go somewhere else.

And, you know, we can sit around and bicker and point fingers about whose fault that is, but that's just the way it is.

And, you know, I don't necessarily blame the kids.

I don't blame the kids at all.

But you know, as a coach, you get in it to, to get that fulfillment of, hey, I made an impact on somebody.

You know, I made an impact on the team, I made an impact on the group.

I, I saw it through.

And so I'm excited about that on the high school side.

Not that the, the portal doesn't exist on my high school side either, but, but I think, you know, having being able to start with kids at a young age and work with them and see them grow and build a culture and build something that's sustained, you know, through the years, that, that was really a big part of the challenge, you know, that, that excited me, you know, and we're getting to the stage now where, you know, it'll, it'll turn right.

We got to get ready to go play now.

It's not about building excitement anymore and building the, building the team and building the community.

Of course, that's always part of it.

But now, okay, we got to find out who our guys are and we got to turn the direction of, of going and starting to compete.

But that was, that was, that was ground zero for me.

And you know, I think to that the point the, the, the, the intuition I had about what could be built here, I think has been proven correct just by the excitement.

The number of kids that have been in the gym and have, you know, wearing their shirts around town and proud to be part of it.

Now we just got to go do it.

And, and so looking, looking forward to that chapter of it here, here soon.

What are your off season rules in South Carolina as far as contact and having kids gym and what you're allowed to do?

I don't, that, yeah, that's.

That on the biggest adjustment for me.

I don't know if I already said a biggest adjustment that by far I always consider myself.

I, I knew all the NCAA rules.

Of course now it's easy to know them.

There are, there are no rules anymore.

You just do whatever you want.

Exactly.

Yeah.

So I know those, but you know, the calendar and, and, and navigating that and trying to squeeze out everything that you can around when you can have your guys working out and you know, recruiting calendar and all that, you know, I, I was always kind of the, the rules and compliance kind of guru on the staffs.

Right.

And just through the years, you know, you just get to know it and know how to navigate and then coming to this side, it's.

I, that was one thing I did not even, I'd be honest with you.

I didn't think about, I didn't prepare for, you know, just the differences.

Um, and so, you know, it's, it's open season is what they call it.

You know, in certain months, June, July, we were able to have workouts.

But it's like you, basically anybody that wants to come in the gym, you can't tell them no, pretty much.

And, and you can't have like, you know, selective workouts and things like that.

Now you can, you know, take a certain number of guys to team camps and things like that, but, you know, for the most part they're open.

And then we were down again and we were closed again in August.

Oddly enough, we were open in September, which that just means on, on court stuff, right?

No limitations as far as number of players and things like that.

If you can have workouts, you can have workouts.

But then they close it again in October, which makes very little sense to me.

But so right now we just have like strength, conditioning, weights, all that stuff.

And then we start back up again, full go in November and we're playing again in November.

So it'll move really, really fast once November hits.

And so that's been an adjustment for me.

But yeah, just, just trying to, you know, Those, those, those three month plans, six month plans, 12 month plans, and, and how that calendar looks year round and what you want to get out of all of it, you know, that's, that's, that's definitely been, you know, part of the learning curve for me.

Yeah.

I think when you start talking about trying to put together what that plan looks like, right.

Month to month and over the course of your first year to make sure that you can get the things done that you want to get done.

Figuring out the pacing, I'm sure, right.

Once you open official practice and you get through your cuts and figure out like, okay, we're X number of days away from the first game, trying to figure out again, you know, kind of what the rhythm was in college basketball.

We got this much time.

There's the one we got to get in, that's how we got to do it.

And obviously at the college, with a higher level, higher level player.

So how have you thought about that in your mind just in terms of sort of putting together the pacing of what you want to get done and, and what you hope to have in by the time you play your first game.

Not that you have to share every detail, but just more about your thought process.

A lot, A lot.

You know, especially being A first time head coach.

Right.

Like, I, I've, obviously, I've got things, I've kept really good notes throughout the years, but I don't have anything that's mine.

Right.

And I don't have anything that would have prepared me for this calendar.

And so I know what we got to get in.

I'm fortunate.

I've got a really good group that's really been with me, you know, since April and has been really consistent.

And those will be the main guys that I count on.

And, you know, I also have them during a period during school, which helps, but not all of them really.

Only I think eight of them during school.

So we got a block, we have a block class.

So I've been a lot more aggressive in installing team things.

You know, I told them this all summer.

Like, look, they hired me.

I didn't get on the court with these guys till June.

I think June 3rd was our first day on the court together.

June 6th, we were playing in team camp.

I'm like, how I, when you add up the practices in the summer and the fall for college, you.

You've practiced almost 90 times before.

You play a game.

Like, 90.

And I told, I told the kids this.

I was like, we're about to practice three and go play a game.

Like, I got no idea what you guys are gonna do, right?

But it does.

Hey, it, it makes you really, it makes you pare down your, pare down your thoughts and, and your principles and what you, what's most important and what you got to get through.

But we've had a little bit of time since then.

But I've, but I've told them all throughout the summer leading up, like, I'm doing a lot more team stuff right now because you guys don't know what our system is.

You know, I'd like to, moving forward in the summer, I would like for it to be almost all skill based.

And this year it was probably, you know, 70% team stuff, 30% skill.

Just because we got to get stuff in, you know, and the way that we play takes a little bit more time, you know, it's a little bit more, you know, read and react a little bit more decision making on the players out there on the courts.

They have to understand how to make those decisions.

And the only way you do that is to get the reps. And so, yeah, I did a lot more of that in the summer in our open periods, leading, and just treated them really more like practices, you know, rather than just open workouts, you know, to, to get that out.

But, but no, you bring up a great point.

It's.

It's my biggest thing right now as we sit here.

I think last.

Yesterday was a month until our first game.

I don't get them on the court for full practice until November 3rd.

And I've got no, you know, zone offense, any zone defense that we might play.

I put in like two very basic baseline out of bounds plays to get us through the summer.

I got no baseline out of bounds.

We don't know how to guard baseline out of bounds.

You know, all of that stuff that keeps, it keeps the coach up at night.

You know, it's like, oh gosh, you know what?

One three, one.

I got it.

We're going to see one three, one, you know, you know the way it goes.

We'll see, we'll see every junk defense there is known to man in the first game of the season, you know, just to, just to put you to the test.

But no, it's a, it's a huge part of really every day, you know, trying to map that out and when you, and when you start looking at it and break it down.

I think we have like 14 practices before our first game.

So it's going to be really important and we're going to be throwing a lot at them and, but they've been great.

They, they, they're smart kids, they're sharp, they can pick up stuff.

They really do.

And they give me 100%, 100% effort, which is anything that you can ask for.

But here, here's another thing I got to be ready for.

I probably got three football players that are coming over in the middle of November.

You know, that, that haven't done anything with us, you know, but they're some of the best athletes in the school.

So I got to teach them something.

I got to get them ready to play.

But, but yeah, that's those of.

That's what we sign up to do.

So it's the, the challenge of.

It's been, it's been fun.

Have you been taking notes or keeping a journal as you've been going through this beginning part of taking the job so that you can kind of have that to reflect upon as you go through the year and look at like, hey, man, this, this really worked.

Or I was on track here, man.

This, I was way off.

So I got.

I, I'm a big note taker that, that Ed.

Probably I owe that to Ed Conroy.

We were, we were always a program that had our, our notebooks and you know, every film session we were writing things down and just recording everything and I gotta shout him out again.

He's getting a lot, a lot here.

The remarkable tablets I use religiously.

So, you know, I don't know if you're familiar with that, but he kind of got me on there.

So, you know, it's a tablet.

I'm able to keep all my notes in and keep organized and yeah, I got, I got a bunch of tabs going right now.

But, but yeah, we've, we, you know, record every day, you know, what we're doing and I've leaned on, I've, I think I've kept every practice plan in my career.

So I've gone back through all those binders and you know, again, really the biggest thing is, is that, that, that, that scope, right, that scope of work and you know, everything that you got to get in and the pacing of it really, really important right now.

And, and I'll tell you what, I'm glad I did, right.

I'm glad I, I did take those things because you know, you take for granted how much you can keep between your ears and, and you go back and look and you know, even my time in South Carolina, that's one thing that stood out.

I thought Frank was really good, intentional about just sprinkling those things in.

You know, we're gonna hit a five minute segment of zone, you know, and it's in August and you're like, why are we doing this?

You know, but just to kind of instead of them and have a cramming in over a two or three day period, you know, sprinkling in here and there, you know, introduce it.

I think one of, one of Eds, Eds big things and even going back playing for, for Doug Novak of, of you know, having a period of install and then, you know, installing something 5101 day and then coming back to it the next day, you know, and not, not throwing too much at him at once.

But, but yeah, yeah, very, very, very important and I'm sure, I'm sure I'll go back and, and look at my notes from this year and even though they're digital, find a way to crumple them up and throw them in the trash can and improve upon them for, for moving forward and everything.

That didn't work.

But, but yeah, I'm definitely calling on that a lot recently.

Yeah, for sure.

I mean I just think that that shortens the learning curve and like you said, there's things that in the moment you're like, oh yeah, this is great.

It's working, or oh, maybe it's not working as well as I would have thought.

And here's some ideas and if you don't put those on paper, man, you go through the course of a season and that stuff is gone when you try to recall it, if you're just trying to keep it in your mind.

And so I would think, especially as a first year head coach, that keeping detailed notes about what went on in practice and hey, we got to prepare for this, or we needed some extra time with this to get ready for our first game or whatever it may be, to be able to have those notes then to go and be able to review at the end of, at the end of the season, I think is, you know, to me is going to be, is going to be invaluable.

So as you look ahead to this season and just think about what you have in front of you when you get to next March and you look back, how are you going to define in your mind a successful season?

What's that going to, what's that going to look like for you when you think about what a successful first year season will be for you as a head coach at the high school level?

Yeah, I mean, I think it's, you know, I talked earlier about the excitement of the kids in the gym, their willingness to work.

You know, I think carrying that over, coming to a place that hasn't won much the last few years, can we establish that identity of competitive excellence then not just be a group that loves basketball and likes to work on our skills?

You know, when we get to the end, which, what it's all about, right?

It's all, no, we do all this stuff, we do it all year round and we love to talk hoops and we love to be around it, but it's about the games, right?

Like, it's about the scoreboard at the end of the day and were we able to establish an identity of we're going after our opponents, we're attacking the game, we're laying it on the line and whatever happens on that scoreboard, fine, we'll deal with it.

But we're going out there with the expectation and the mindset to win, right?

And if we don't, we're really disappointed and we're really hurt by it.

And so I think when you're taking over a place that hasn't tasted that, of establishing that as the expectation and as a standard and then for me, I think being patient in that process, you know, of, you know, of talking to people and, and not trying to go too fast and not trying to get it all, you know, at once and not expecting that final product.

Having your standards be your standards, but also understanding that.

I even told our kids the other day, because I've got mostly freshmen and sophomores, they're super, super young, say, hey, this is going to be the worst year that we have together.

And that's a good thing, right?

Like, the better days are.

Every day we come in here should be better than the last.

I mean, their eyes were like this big.

I'm like, this is going to be our worst season in the next five years.

Right?

And they kind of started understanding where I was going with it.

But, but no, it's, it's, you know, that's where I want to be in March is looking back and saying, man, my kids really competed like they competed because I know, I've seen it.

They've got the work ethic, they have the want to.

But can you go take it to another team?

You know, can, can you go?

How do you deal with adversity?

How do you deal with physicality?

How do you deal with being out athleted on the court?

Do you back away from those challenges or do you meet them head on?

And if I'm able to see that at the end of the year, I'll be, I'll be really pleased about where we're, where we're headed.

That's an excellent definition of success.

And I think if you can get there with your first team, it bodes well for what you're going to continue to be able to build in the future.

All right, final question.

When you think about what you get to do every day as a basketball coach, and it's kind of been woven throughout our entire conversation, but I want to hear you kind of sum it up.

When you think about what you get to do each and every day, what brings you the most joy as a basketball coach?

Yeah, it's.

It's hard not to give a token answer here, but, but I really do like, and especially now that I'm not an old coach by any means, but I've, but I've put some years in, man.

It's, it's the, it's the people that you do it with.

It really is like.

And, and, and I made a decision back early in my career.

I'm only going to work with and for people I really, I really wholly trust and believe in and just want to be around every single day.

And guys like Frank Martin, like, working for Ed Citadel at a place that I Love, but I can't think of, you know, there are certain times in your career you go through like, you know, am I going to have to do something else?

I don't want to do something else.

But you know, if I can't get a job, you know, what am I going to do?

And you don't realize, you know, until you even think about stepping out of it.

Like the depths of the relationships that you're able to form through basketball, you don't get in other places.

Like you can't tell me that you get it at a desk job or any, and not to belittle those jobs, but you just, you don't go through the fire together.

You know, you, you, you, you don't tell me where else you're, you're having those closer relationships with, with 21 year olds who are, or 18 year olds who were at crucial point in their lives and they're going through things right, and you're, you're there, you're, you're an older brother, you're a father figure to him and, and, and you were there for him and, and not only that, but, but you fought together and you work together towards a common cause.

And then when I see it come back, you know, it's, it's my son's birthday was my, my son and my daughter's birthday was in the last month.

You know, when you put things out on social media and I see the former players that are coming back in the comments, happy birthday and all this kind of stuff and it's like, man, like we know how like blessed we are.

Like I got kids, I got dudes that are SEC players of the year, you know, wishing my kid happy birthday, but that's kind of like a trivial thing.

But, but you know, to have those people still around in your, in your life and then it really is like you hear it a lot.

But this game, this profession, you know, it, it allows us to make bonds that, that I just, I don't think are possible, you know, otherwise.

And you just hope as your co, as a coach, you're doing your part and, and making those experiences that have made other people better.

But, but I think about the people that has brought me to contact with, the people that I never would have come across, you know, in any other walk of life, at any other point in my life had I chosen another route.

And, and so blessed and thankful to be able to do it and that, that I have those people and you know, the ones that you truly been through some things with, you know, and, and that, you know, that you can count on, man, that's.

That's something special.

And that's what, that's what keeps me.

Keeps me fired up to do it every day.

That's well said.

And I think when I look at the basketball community and I just think about this silly podcast that we're doing tonight and that I've been doing for seven years, and I look at it as, again, a way to be able to give back to the game, but also a way to be able to connect with people.

And, you know, you and I just talked for an hour and a half and felt like it was 10 minutes.

You know, I joke a lot of times in my, in my post, in my post podcast conversation that we'll have here in a second when we're done.

Oftentimes I'll joke and say, you know, we talked for an hour and 10 minutes and we didn't even get to your current job yet.

I mean, like, we're, we're going through and we're having, we're having this conversation, and I'm like, well, well, we better get to the job that this guy has right now and at least talk a little bit about it.

But we've already been going for it for so long, and I think that that's, that's kind of what you're talking about is just the connection that you can make and whether it's with your players, whether it's with your fellow coaches, and clearly it's a thread that has woven its way through your entire career in terms of the relationship that ships that you've built through your various experiences or what's helped you to get that next experience.

And I think that when you talk about the basketball community, I think the thing that has impressed me the most over the course of time that I've done the podcast is just the willingness of people to share and share because they just love the game and they want to see the game be better.

And to me, I always say, like, I.

There's no way I can give back to basketball what basketball has given me.

When I look at my life and the people in it, the things that I've done, the experiences that I've had, like, everything that I have basically traces back to basketball in some way, shape or form.

Like, all roads lead back to it.

And I think that's, again, that's something that I feel coming from you as well.

You can just, you can just sense it in the conversation, in your career arc, and in everything that you've done.

How important basketball is.

And again, I'm just thankful that you were willing to come on tonight and share your time with us.

And before we get out, I want to give you one opportunity to share.

How can people get in touch with you?

Find out more about what you're doing, whether you want to share, social media, website, email, whatever you feel comfortable with.

And then after you do that, I'll jump back in and wrap things up.

Yeah, no, over at, over at Wando High School.

So I think my.

Here, let me check here.

My.

Because I had to change them, right?

I had to change all my social media.

Exactly.

I'm on Instagram and Twitter at John Reynolds.

That's R E Y N O L D S underscore Sr. That's, that's senior.

We were all SC when I was at South Carolina so we had to switch it up a little bit.

So John Reynolds Sr. Instagram and Twitter also.

Johnreynolds basketballcamps.com we, we got that up and running and I run most of that through my own social media.

So reach out to me there.

Would love to connect and, and, and again, I know we gotta wind up here.

Something I really always took from Frank Martin, man, he, he was one of the best at just giving it away, right?

Give, give your knowledge away.

I mean we give away practice tapes.

We gave away everything.

I'm like Frank, you sure you want me to put this out?

But you know, always, always about paying it forward and like so many people have done for me.

So you know, if there's ever anybody that I could help in any way or just want to talk ball.

Always, always happy to, to connect and you know, bring, bring some more people in the circle.

John, cannot thank you enough for taking the time out of your schedule tonight to join us.

Really appreciate it and to everyone out there, thanks for listening and we will catch you on our next episode.

Thanks.

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