We are chatting with David Maguire. He is the director at Stable

and Adelicious. These are 2 separate podcasting companies. 1 is for

podcast production, 1 is for advertising. And the reason why we're chatting with him

today is because of a platform called Podcross, which he

just indicated he started a while ago, but he just started to bring it back

more recently. And we'll we'll dive into it, what it does, and why it's something

that you should be paying attention to. David, thank you for joining me here

today. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you for inviting me. So before we

get to Podcross specifically, what was your,

like, entryway into the podcasting space originally? Yeah.

So, I I used to work in radio, the BBC, lots

of radio stations over here. I was a producer and an editor.

And then, round about 2014, I decided

to go freelance and part of the freelance landscape in

London at the time was, podcasting and it

was still quite nascent. Now, a lot of people didn't really understand what it was,

but, I started as an adviser because I dabbled

in my own podcast at the time. And then, really, I did less

and less radio and more and more podcasting. So, I then

took a podcasting production role and advisory role at News UK, which

is lots of brands over here like The Times Newspaper, The

Wireless Group, and

TFS. And then I went over to The Telegraph Group and I did the same

over there. I wrote the strategy for their podcasting

at the time because they built a studio but they didn't really know how to

get into podcasting. And then from there, I set

up, one of my companies, Stable, because around about

2016, 2017, the market was just about

mature enough to start making money. Can you believe it? In Podcasting.

Unheard of at the time. So sponsorship was becoming a thing.

And, you know, we'd just come out of a a period where the

only way you could really make money in the UK anyway were these

vanity links. And, I remember the first time I did something like

that. I think it was with Audible. You know, you'd

get £10 every time somebody went to audible.co.uk

Tech whatever forward slash the name of the

Podcasting, and there was no CPMs. There was none of that.

So, yeah, Stable was was was born out of

a, a desire to do, quality production in

podcasting and hopefully make a business out of that. And

then from there, myself and my cofounder for Adelicious, we

shared an office, and we needed a company that took

podcasting advertising more seriously. And, that's

blossomed from there. So, yeah, that's it. That's the history of my

podcasting career in a nutshell. And at the moment, I I'm still

there. It is amazing how similar our paths

are because I worked in radio. I started freelance

podcasting. I got well, we got laid off at the end of 2014. So then

I started to do freelance podcasting work in 2015. And, yeah, it was around

2016 that I was, like, 2016, 2017 when I said, you know what? I'm

done with all the part time work. I'm gonna do this production stuff full time.

And, even a year or so later, I started doing some work at podcast

advertising. So a lot of parallels there, between the 2 of us.

Yeah. Yes. You know?

What's the word? Solidarity. You know? Kind of

taking a leap just before, the big guys, you know,

swooped in to to to acquire everything. So, yeah,

it's nice to hear that I wasn't the only one. We're like professional

doppelgangers here with our, with our career Passy. And we're even

wearing a similar, color top. So there you go. Oh my god. That's so

true. Watch it on YouTube if you're not doing that as you can see. So

when you started to do the ad thing and you said you were taking more

seriously, what does that mean? Right? Like, what was it about ads that you

needed to form the Tech company? What were you diving into? What were you

prioritizing? So that's a good question. So in the UK, we're

slightly behind the curve, right, when it comes to, the trends and the

maturity of the market. So we looked over in the US and there were

lots of big independent podcast companies that were

doing big deals for premium shows. In the UK, you

had a little bit of that but there was the market and still is to

a certain extent dominated by, Acast,

audio boom, a company called DAX, which is owned by Global Media,

but they they really dealt with everything. And so

they they they only really sold

premium sponsorships for their premium top

5% of shows. And if you weren't in that top 5%,

you you kind of got left behind and you weren't

really catered to. So, we needed a bespoke

Podcasting only advertising agency

that didn't really deal with technology, didn't really

kind of accept everyone and everyone. And, at the

time, Megaphone hadn't even set foot into

Europe. So we were one of the first networks to use

Megaphone as an open platform for our

shows, which meant that we could also program in the back end

of sponsorship deals because Podcasting, at the

time anyway, you you didn't have access. There was no transparency

to to the deal. So even if you did a deal yourself as an independent

producer, you had to give a percentage away to Acast

because they programmed the deal. Whereas, Adelicious, you know, philosophy

is Podcasting first, which means that if a podcaster does a deal, they

get a 100% revenue because they can program in the advertising. They

can do everything. We give them full transparency in all the

rates. We try because we don't accept everyone, we try and

only grow as we grow so we can take care of every

everyone on our network and we we can give them time, communication,

and everything you want as a Podcasting producer. So,

yeah, we felt that as podcasting was becoming more of a

mainstream media, there was a bigger need for a more

bespoke, more premium curated Podcasting

advertising network in the UK. Because, basically, we looked we just looked

at the States and saw what was happening there, and we just thought, well, it's

it's gonna follow. And it's still case, still the case for today,

really. How many downloads per show were you

working with at the time? Because I know here you would hear from

companies say, you know, mid roll, for example, which was a big one that that

was early into the game as a advertising agency. Right?

They won't talk to you for less than 50,000 downloads, let's say, per episode.

But we had plenty of folks and plenty of clients, and I knew lots of

podcasters who could generate great revenue with as little as a

1000 downloads per episode. So I'm just curious what your kind of model looked

like. Yeah. We we were lucky because even though we started off with a

handful of of shows, you know, we were, collectively,

as a network, you know, around about a1000000. So we started off

with with quite a with quite a nice size

network, but that was collective. You know, we still had shows that were

underneath, 50,000 per

month, for example. And we still we still

do with we still deal with that size occasionally

because it's all market dependent. Right? We we can only

we can only make, it work if the the demand out

is out there, from from the brands. So,

it was but it was tough because myself and Pascal,

the cofounder of Adelicious, we we've got no background when it comes

to advertising. And, essentially,

we lived and died by our numbers and our reputation in the

market. And, we got to a point

where, you know, we we had to kind of re

keep on reinvesting reinvesting programmatic money into our

direct sales team. And from there, we just kind of

bettered on the higher CPMs, the more direct money

coming in, and then over time that that's worked out to the advantage as,

you know, the programmatic landscape's changed. Megaphone obviously got bought by

Spotify. That's become a completely different different,

landscape, the different view of of of how money's made in the industry. So,

yeah, a lot's changed, but a lot remains the same. You said it was about

4 years ago when you first started this Podcross platform.

Bid on ad spots in podcast

to put your own promotional message. Ideally, it would be for other

podcasters to promote their show on somebody else's feed.

So what was the onus for starting that, and

what, what happened to it? Why, you know, why was it kinda shelved

for few years there? Yeah. So, I mean, the great thing about working in

podcasting, which I'm sure, yourself, Matt, is

you can you can, too, attest to, is that it's one of those industries

that seems to always be innovative changing. If you

think of something, you can kind of really make a

difference in in the landscape and how people perceive

podcasting and and how how people operate within it.

But at the time, I just needed, this so this is

Priya Delicious. I just needed a platform to promote my

new Podcasting on. And,

really, cross promotion was the thing. And so, it just

involved me emailing people, getting emails from RSS feeds

and saying, hey, I'm making this show. You've got an audience that

I want and, can I put a trailer

on your show, please? And it was it was a bit of trial and error.

It was quite old school. And so when it when it first

started, it was just about creating a list, much like Tink Media have done today,

where you can go in, you can search for similar shows with the audience you

want, and, you can approach them because it might give you an email

address. It's a very basic

Google Sheet, basically. But I sat on the URL.

I kept it going. I was like, you know, you know, my other projects took

off, the ones that actually paid the mortgage, etcetera. But

I sat on it because I still I still think well, I still thought

there was an there was the need in podcasting for this kind of

open system where people can have access to. And when

everyone talks when anyone talks about marketing within podcasting, there's still a big

question mark. There's like, what's the best way of discovery? People

disagree sometimes. They're like, well, there's there's Apple Podcasting, there's

Spotify, there's certain ways of doing things, there's different ways of marketing things.

But from what I've read, pod news, etcetera, still the best

way to promote your podcast is on other podcasts.

And so, recently, I just returned to the idea on

paper and I thought, well, how could this be continue as an

ecosystem, but how can I make it more

relevant to today with with with podcasting being a biz

bigger business, than it was 4 years ago? And I I

Tech came up with this idea of having, like, an eBay auction for for

shows that wanna sell inventories, wanna sell spots,

particularly for promoting other shows because it happens anyway. You know?

People pay large CPMs, for shows. The

Sony Musics, the Wandries, they do it all the time across

different networks. And, and

I I wanted to do it in in a way where you could bid for

it because I didn't necessarily I wanted to have some fluidity there.

I wanted to have some, I wanted the

the the the price that people paid for these spots to be dictated by the

demand for their audience. And

from the idea, I'm not a developer. I just, you know, scrape together

some templates. And and what you see now at podcross.c0

is this, beginning of of of that really. A

marketplace where podcasts of a certain audience can sell

spots and people who wanna grow their audience for certain shows can can

buy and bid on certain, shows to grow their

audience. Let's say I am the podcaster on your platform.

Right? People are bidding. They wanna put their promo on my

show. Right? The auction ends. What happens

as me, the podcaster, you know, producing the show? What

like, how long do I have to get it out there? What's the tracking like?

You know, what's the accountability, I guess? Yeah. So it's, I'm the

I'm still the gatekeeper of all of that. So, money won't

exchange unless everything's been agreed

on. And, I can't emphasize enough. This is

not a finished product. This is a

an MVP type of situation where I'm still it's still gonna

be hand cranked. I'm still gonna make sure that everyone's happy before any money is

exchanged. But, from what I from what I've learned

from advertising is that you yes. You can automate

some aspects of this kind of stuff, but a lot of it still has

to be human. It still has to have,

elements of, nuance. Right?

I mean, hopefully, over time, I can automate a lot of

it, you know, in terms of, kind of the

flight of of these campaigns, the success rate in

terms of conversion rates, that kind of thing. But, you know, in

terms of, you know, who wins the auctions,

I want there to be a first denial because it

might be a show that, you know if you have a podcast and you put

it on Podcross and you do a show I don't know. Let's say

it's a political show because that's easier to talk about in terms of division.

If you do a political show about the Republicans, I'm not suggesting you're

a republican or a democrat. Doesn't matter which side.

People don't wanna host a lot of political content. Yeah. That's that's

just an example. But if a Democrat based show

then wins the bid on your show, you might not want it to be

on there, right, because of obvious reasons. So I need to

ensure that there is still that human

gatekeeper for what's allowed and what's

accepted. So really, you'll just get an email saying,

congratulations, you've won the bid. This is the price.

And

I'll

talk to you. The person will pay, will

pay me, and I'll then pay you once the details

are scrapped. I kind of thought through. As

you can tell, it's not a slick operation

at this point, but I just need to ensure that, it

has traction before I invest more money in developing it. But I think there is

something there. I definitely think there is a need in the industry to have an

open platform for you know, doesn't matter who

you're hosting on that you can then go into a database and

book something without worrying about being hosted on Megaphone or

Captivate or whatever. And you're still using

Megaphone for this project, or have you shifted to a different platform? No. No. It's

completely independent of just, the developer there's

nothing there's no mmh

partnership. But I mean the podcasting themselves that these

ads are gonna go into. Are those dynamically inserted via

megaphone or using a different platform? Are you guys just baking them in,

into the audio itself? It depends on who whoever

puts the show on the platform, it depends on

their platform, how that's then incorporated into the show. So

I can't emphasize how hand cranked this is. So if you're

if you're on Podcasting platform that doesn't

allow dynamic insertion, I can't think of

any that don't, it would have to be baked in for

a certain amount. But if it's on Megaphone, if it's on whoever,

Art 19, Captivate, they have technology

where you can flight the campaign and you can just program

it in yourself. So it kinda really depends

at this point. Alright. For

folks who like I said, this this platform's a little bit newer. So,

right, it's not there for everybody. You can't just run up there, put your podcast

on there, and and start getting bids from folks. But for folks who are thinking

about this kind of cross promotion strategy for growing their

show, what advice could you give them

either as the podcaster wants to accept promos or the

one who is kinda pitching promos to other shows? What, like, what are

some best practices or things to definitely avoid? Yeah. That's a

good question. I mean, in terms of

pitching your show to

be sold, I would say, really think about whether it's

the best thing for your show or for your audience.

Because like any kind of advertising, whether it be another

show or a brand, there has to be a good

payoff, right? There has to, it has to be worth

the work to kind of

put that out there. And you have to ensure that your audience isn't

going to be alienated by it either. You know, I've talked

to so many people with a show with, I don't know, maybe 10,000 listens and

that's great. Okay. 10,000 listens is a huge

show per episode. But,

if you want to put a mid roll in that show

and it's 10 minutes long, it's probably not gonna

be worth the money that you're gonna get because the

CPM is so low and you wanna

concentrate on making sure that the

whole show is worth listening to because you wanna grow that. So, you

know, really think about whether your audience would

accept, something on your show before you actually

commit to something. You know, don't get too ahead of yourself. Allow yourself time

to develop an idea, to develop a show, to develop a

format, because, you know, try and run your own race. And

it's quite a generalized saying, but,

you know there's so many different types of you know, what is

even a podcast, Right? You know, it's just a

mechanism of delivery rather than a thing. And I think a lot of

people get caught up in, you know, wanting to be

something when actually a show that reaches,

10 people could be just as successful as a show that reaches 10,000,000

people. But you're you're defined by your parameters in terms of success.

So those ten people could be the most important people for the message that you're

trying to convey. So that's that's one thing to say about that side. And

then, in terms of people wanting to

get their promo on other shows, I

think my personal opinion is that just do

your research in terms of the audience. Because

even if it's just

a cross-promotion email into the either and you

don't know them, you're still taking time outs, You're still doing the

work. You're still putting your name out there and you wanna get it absolutely

right. And you know, don't underestimate

the cost, both the real cost, but also the cost and other

things like time it takes to kind of make a trailer,

ensure that, you know, that it hits home because, you know, it's

time consuming. Podcasting is time consuming and you wanna make sure that

you're really focused.

So when you're thinking about your audience,

you know, the type of promo that you produce is important.

The research, but kind of don't

just limit yourself to to, the podcast

world. Open it up. Look into other areas, message

boards, that kind of thing. If you're doing a show about a certain topic,

I'm sure, you know, there are websites and there are, other

kinds of platforms that you can promote your show on because,

ultimately, you wanna make it as broad as possible and you

never know that, people I

mean, there are so many stats about who listens to podcasts and the room for

it to grow. Right? So you kind of you wanna make sure that your

time is precious. Make it worth it. Good advice. You know,

I I wanna go back to something that you said a few moments ago about,

you know, whether or not your audience will

accept advertising, will accept promotional content. And what I

often would've would tell clients in the past was

if you even think that you're gonna do advertising on your show, if

that is gonna be part of your monetization strategy,

get your audience used to that break as quickly as

you can. Even if you are just creating promotional

messages for yourself, maybe you're just talking about an event you have

coming up, your email list, right, like, start to

create the idea of a break in your show now so that

when it happens later and it's not for you, it's a

lot less jarring than someone who's used to having a show

completely ad free. And now all of a sudden, it's, you know, you have ads

now, which it's fine. Shows should be allowed to have ads. I know there are

lots of listeners who get annoyed by that, but, it it

does, you know, soften the blow a little bit if you've kinda

built that expectation in. Absolutely. I couldn't agree

more. And it's so funny you say that because there's so much,

especially I don't know if it's a British thing. It could be, a global thing.

I don't know. But in terms of talking and you

know, it's a British expression, taking the piss out

of podcasting in general.

There's so many, kind of memes and stuff about, you know, you might

listen to I I don't know. It was the other one I talked to the

other day. Somebody said something about Marc Maron. Right? Great Podcasting,

but maybe, like, you know, the podcast only really

starts until, you know, 20 minutes in because he there's so many ads and

there's there's so many kind of like corporate reads. And, you know, people find you

can skip it and stuff, but I don't know. It's,

anyone who who has experience in podcasting or social media or

anything that's free, your general

punter doesn't care. It's like, well,

it still annoys me. I don't care if I don't pay for it.

And I still understand that adverts get you

money to do the thing that I'm listening to, but it still annoys me.

Right? It's generally not a logical thing. It's more of an

emotional thing. So putting a marker in where there could

be an ad, I absolutely agree because it's just kind of priming

somebody for going, okay. Maybe in you know, even if it's

subconsciously, there's gonna be a break here. There's gonna be some kind of

messaging. And, you know, there's obviously then a discussion

about the type of advert, whether it's a programmatic radio

style ad with a voice you don't know or where it's the

a kind of a host read or sponsorship, that's that's a different kind of

conversation and as long as that's, you know,

segregated correctly, I guess. But, yeah.

People people still want their want their stuff,

as kind of ad free and as,

you know, free as possible. Even though it's a contradictory

Tech, phrase, you know, and sometimes it's, it's not always

possible. Yeah. They just want it their way. Well, if you're curious to

check out how the platform works, maybe you wanna advertise, promote your show on

one of the shows that are being listed here, check out podcross.c0.

We've been chatting with David Maguire, the director of

STABLE at Adelicious and the man, the brains behind

podcross.co. Before we let you go, a couple of questions.

In general, is there a place where you would

like to see improvement in the podcasting world in general?

It doesn't have to be advertising, but just something that really

rubs you the wrong way that you'd love to see corrected.

That's a really good question. And I

have a I have a silly one, which I'm not being uber serious,

but it kind of annoys me a little bit in a fun way. And that's

when people call Podcasting pods.

It happens quite a bit in the UK,

which, you know, is such a silly thing. And I don't I'm

kind of it's one of those things where I catch myself and, like, don't be

such a don't be such an idiot. But because I've been working in podcasting

and you get people who wanna make it kind of a bit, there's a bit

of a laddie culture sometimes where especially, I'm going down a

rabbit hole now. But if they they wanna be familiar, so they call

it pods. Hey. Do you wanna come on with a pod? Pod. Get a pod.

And it's like, yes. You know, you know, it's I don't mind it too much,

but just if you work in podcasting, you're like, no. It's a podcast.

Anyway and that's a whole another thing. But

what would I what would I change?

That's a really good question. I'll think of the right answer in about 5 hours

probably when I'm lying in bed. But the

one thing I really loved about podcasting at the start,

was how, genuinely lovely

it was to work in podcasting. Without

exception, it's it's an industry that

is open to most things. Most people wanna

lift each other up. Most people,

enjoy other people's success. There's lots of

collaboration, and, there was lots of freedom

because it wasn't the open RSS feed was such a magical thing.

It was like blogging in the early days. And it was

generally I mean, I'm sure hopefully, you agree, it was,

especially, you know, in the mid naughties sorry.

Mid naughties. Mid teens, 2015.

We sound like a history teacher. It was it was genuinely

an exciting place to be, right, because, only a handful

of people really knew what it was and let alone, you know, how to do

everything across the spectrum of it. And I

what I want is for podcasting to retain that

because what I'm seeing, and this might be my cynical

old man way of of of looking

at things 10 years later is that is I see that generally year

on year eroding slightly bit by bit. And, you

know, it's the classic example of money follows money, and you've got the big guys

coming into the space too. And you've got suddenly debates

about open RSS versus a walled garden of content and all

that kind of stuff and, you know, where people get content and even

people using the word content instead of showing.

But my wish is for that kind of collaboration,

that niceness, and

genuine Podcasting to help each other to

remain in podcasting, because I think if it loses

that, it loses its, its essence of of what

excited me in the first place. I do agree. It was always the most pleasant

experience was being around other Podcasting. And, yeah, as anything

grows, the the niceties are always going to

be eroded just a little bit. So in a similar

vein but slightly different, is there any technology

on your wish list? Is there a piece of equipment, a kind of software,

some that either you you know is out there that you wanna buy or something

out there that you'd love someone to create for podcasting? So in terms of

technology, it really fascinates me because it's not my area of

expertise. Quite honestly, I'm I'm I'm I can barely open a laptop without it

without it collapsing. But,

you know, this, this whole AI thing and there's

a there's a company. Oh, what's it called?

There's Cast Magic. There's Wizards..

Oh, yeah. It kind of...somebody sent me a show. It

was a Swedish soccer show,

and I listened to it, and it was it was

about an hour and a half long. And, I thought, yeah, it's okay.

But it was it was 2 English presenters, but they said,

no, it's completely AI. It's completely,

produced, and translated by AI and it

even though it wasn't my thing, it blew me away. It'd

be really interesting to see how AI develops podcasting in that

sense. I already know that a lot of news websites

have daily Podcasting now automatically produced from text,

or even just from, you know, news

outlets that just kind of, collaborate together. Yeah. I've seen some

technology where they will read you articles via

AI. Also, I mean, it's prolific on

YouTube to have videos that are just reading comments in a

computer generated voice, random, like, just totally automated content,

but it's a strategy that works for a lot of people. Yeah.

Yeah. And it's, it's time saving. Right? And that's, that's

always gonna win if if you can solve a solution,

sorry, solve a problem with a solution that doesn't, you

know, take any manpower, then you're you're probably onto a winner.

But in terms of technology that I look at and I

like, quite it's this it's

so great. But this microphone that I'm using right now, I I wanted one for

ages in terms of just a decent microphone, and a, you know,

Focusrite and a Cloudlifter and that I was over the moon with that.

But, Yeah. I again, this

will this is really annoying because I'm gonna I'm gonna think of something in about

3 hours' time. Yeah. I'm gonna go, oh, yeah. I should have said that.

But but, again, you know, with with podcasting, it's a it's a

fascinating world. Like, if you if you read the news in podcasting, there's

always an innovation. There's always something new going on. You know? Some

somebody's trying to solve a problem, and, technology

is definitely a big part of that. There's, you know, there's things coming out

every day, which is which is why I love it. And the last one, which

I think is also you're gonna be mad at me that I didn't prep you

with this one. What is your favorite podcast that you're listening to

right now? So what does that show that no matter what you're

doing, when this one pops up in your feed, it is going to be

listened to, like, that day or as soon as possible.

Yeah. This is more more in my wheelhouse, more content side.

But, there's there's there's can I have a couple?

Sure. There's there's a history comedy show called

Oh, What A Time, which is, 3 British comedians,

who, take a subject like

escapes or, I don't know, innovation

or, fashion, and each of them

bring a different period to the table. And, basically, they try and decide whether

it's the past was worth living or whether it was just a horrible

place. They have a proper historian researching,

all the different topics, and, it's relatively new. I think

it's probably about 6 months old, but I love it because

I love the as with most podcasts, it's about if you like

the the hosts, you kind of

like probably like the show. And I love history too and I love comedy so

it's like it's perfect for me, I always listen to that. And so just on

as an aside, the one thing that they do quite well I think

is that they release they release the

each episode into to 2 different episodes, if

that makes sense. They split it from one day and then the

next day will be the next half. And they do that

because, they have a subscription where you can have another day,

but you can only do it if you subscribe. So I think they're quite clever

with that. And another one, which is,

an American one I listen to, with Guy Raz,

which is, How I Built This.

And, yeah, I I mean, I just I just really like him. I

think he's I think he's a really good journalist. And, as

someone running my own businesses, I just I just like hearing the

stories and, it's, it's really easy to listen

to no matter what the industry they're talking about.

I'm always fascinated about people going through the, quote unquote

journey. And, I think the

production's really great. But that's you know, they're they're 2 very

different shows. You know, 1 is just a, I suppose, a Passy panel show,

and the other is a nicely,

sound designed storytelling show from,

is it NPR? I might be wondering now, but, NPR

stock. How about yourself? I mean, I'm keen to know. Oh, yeah. I

mean, I've been I listen to Start Here every day from ABC

News. So they're, you know, they do, like, a nice mix of

news stories to start the day off. Right? Having worked in the news business, I

can't stop. And I find this to be better than The Daily just

because I want more than one topic. Like, I don't wanna just be an expert

on one thing. I wanna know a little bit about everything going on. And then

I've been on this crazy binging of Conan O'Brien needs

a friend. I'm very, very late to that party, but I went back and

I started from the beginning. And I'm I've been listening to it for months now,

and I'm I'm close to being caught up. So those are the 2 I'm prioritizing

right now, but I gotta I gotta road trip coming up, so I'm gonna need

some new ones. So that's why I love this question because I get good, good

suggestions from other people to check out. I could bore you

today. I used to, Stable, my production company, used

to be a podcast recommendation newsletter in

2015 no, probably earlier than that, 2014. And so

it's, like, it's one of those things that I love talking about because there's so

much great stuff out there, and you're never gonna be able to listen to anything.

But, you know, a long car journey is a great great excuse.

Well, if you have more suggestions, or more answers to the questions that

you think of later you wanna shoot over, we'll include those in the show notes

along with we'll include a link to podcross.co Tech

to, David's other company, STABLE. It's we are

stable.com. We've had the pleasure of chatting with David Maguire, the

director of Stable and Adelicious and the brains behind

Podcross. David, good luck with that platform. Keep up the great work,

and thanks for joining me. Absolute pleasure. Thank you, Matthew. Just

one thing, if I may. If anyone listening

has any feedback, I'm completely open to that because this is for podcasters.

And if I'm missing a trick or they, I'm not,

it's it doesn't do something that they want, please

please get in contact because it's for them ultimately. So, I believe there's a

contact form on the website, but if you're okay if we pop your email on

the show notes as well? Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Alright. So we will also make sure

to include it. It's going to be david at we are stable, s t a

b l, dot com. But, again, we'll make sure to include that link in the

show notes. David McGuire, great to meet you. Thanks for joining me. Absolute pleasure.