Master Edit PART ONE

[00:00:00] Ross: Hi there, and a very warm welcome to season 5, episode 50 of People Soup. It's Ross McIntosh here.

[00:00:06] Carrie: One thing I remember experiencing, I ended up doing a, um, a bit of remote work. So I would see clients by telehealth from Melbourne two days a week. I would often be running late as I often am, and it felt really jarring to notice myself rush through this, you know, drop the kids off at school, rushing to get to my first client for the day. And it was like there was one moment I just kind of looked around me and realized I was the only person. That was walking fast. And not only was I the only person walking fast, but I would have a keep cup in my hand. I would make my instant coffee before I left and you didn't ever see a keep cup, but not even a takeaway cup in anybody's hand because It just wasn't a thing to take your coffee away. You sit and have your coffee before you move. And so here I was rushing through the streets with my takeaway coffee. And it was so lovely because a really common phrase that the local Zanzibaris use is poli poli, And they would say it so often in, in a really.

[00:01:23] protective way almost.

[00:01:26] Ross: Peasoopers, I'd like you to meet Dr. Carrie Haywood. Carrie is a registered clinical psychologist, and a member of the Australian Psychological Society and the Australian Health Practitioner Regulation Agency.

[00:01:39] She's also an adventurer, a creative, an innovator, and an author. We'll come back to Kerry's book collection called Being Human in the in this episode you'll hear about Carrie's development in the field of psychology, the impact of discovering ACT, and how she embarked upon a family adventure to go and live in [00:02:00] Zanzibar in Tanzania for six months. you'll discover the lesson she learned about sitting with discomfort, the cultural differences, and the meaning of the expression poly poly.

[00:02:10] For those of you who are new to PeopleSoup, Hi, hola, welcome to the community. For those of you who are more familiar, a very warm welcome back. Thanks for joining us again. We're an award winning podcast where we share evidence based behavioral science in a way that's practical, accessible, and fun. Our mission is to unlock workplace potential with expert perspectives from contextual behavioral science. Let's just scoot over to the news desk. My Act in the Workplace Train the Trainer program is rapidly approaching. At the end of April, folks, it's the final countdown, It's proving to be very popular, and there are still some places available. if you'd like to bring evidence based training to support well being and psychological flexibility in the organizations that you work with, then look no further.

[00:03:10] Details are in the show notes, including the discount code.

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[00:03:34] the thing is, folks, when you review rate, share and talk about the podcast, That helps more people to find us, and all the useful PeopleSoup stuff. For now, get a brew on, and have a listen to part one of my chat with the wonderful Carrie Haywood.

[00:03:50] Dr. Carrie Haywood, welcome to people soup.

[00:03:59] Carrie: Thank you [00:04:00] very much, Ross. It's a pleasure to be here.

[00:04:02] Ross: Well, I'm delighted to have you here. I'm delighted to meet you. Now, Carrie, here at PeopleSoup you probably know we have a research department who have done a bit of digging into you and your career and looked for some details and they've come up with something, but keep a keen ear out because they don't always get everything right.

[00:04:20] Carrie: Okay, I'm listening intently.

[00:04:22]

[00:04:23] Ross: Okay, so it says here. Carrie is a registered psychologist and member of the Australian Psychological Society and Australian Health Practitioner Regulation Agency. She's also an adventurer, a creative and an author. How are we doing so far?

[00:04:39] Carrie: Wow. It sounds a lot bigger than I would have anticipated.

[00:04:46] Ross: Well, I see my job, uh, Carrie, is to hold up a mirror to you to help you see what we see.

[00:04:52] Carrie: Mm.

[00:04:54] Ross: So, after completing her doctorate in psychology at Deakin University in 2007, Carrie has been practicing clinical psychology for the past 15 years. Over these years, she has worked with both adolescents and adults in many different health settings, Carrie has found that even though individuals may present with very different issues and come from a range of different histories and contexts, most people tend to share one very central issue, a pervasive struggle with all things they cannot control in their lives and a resulting disconnect with themselves, others and the world.

[00:05:29] Carrie's practice as a psychologist became most enriching and influential when she found and became trained in Acceptance and Commitment Therapy. Or as our listeners will know it, ACT. A framework that explains the innate struggles of the human condition to get the most meaning and vitality out of themselves and their lives.

[00:05:50] I love the way you describe ACT.

[00:05:52] Carrie: Oh, good. I've always, um, found it very challenging to describe ACT in a nutshell, so that's, that's [00:06:00] lovely to hear.

[00:06:00] Ross: Yeah, it really resonates with me and I, I have similar struggles describing it, particularly to organizations where you tend to need to get things to land quite

[00:06:13] Carrie: I can imagine.

[00:06:14] Ross: In addition to her private practice, Carrie manages a mindfulness and meditation studio in Albert Park in Melbourne called A Place to Be.

[00:06:23] This is a communal space for wellness teachers to deliver their classes and events to the community. There's more. In 2016, she co founded a community fundraising event called The Mindful Walk. The event Brings the community together for a morning of mindfulness in the outdoors, which raises money for mental illness awareness and suicide prevention.

[00:06:43] In 2022, she spent six months in Zanzibar in Tanzania, living and serving in a different community, enriching her understanding of what it truly means to be human. Carrie's book collection is called Being Human, and we'll be talking more about that a bit later. But Carrie, there's one other thing that the research department noted.

[00:07:03] Well, it's more. The research department, it's more actually me and you because we were chatting before we started and you mentioned that you'd picked up the flute again after a few years where you haven't touched it.

[00:07:17] Carrie: Mmm. Many

[00:07:18] years.

[00:07:19] Ross: and I blithely said, oh blimey, I used to play the oboe and I haven't touched it for decades.

[00:07:26] And this idea hatched between us P Souper's that maybe we could form a duet. Because a dear friend of mine, Rose, visited last year and brought me some reads for the oboe. So I've kind of got no excuse. So maybe this is the motivation we need to form that duet group. Obviously it will be virtual rehearsals to begin with Carrie, but who knows where we might end up.

[00:07:51] Carrie: We might go on tour.

[00:07:52] Ross: Yeah, absolutely. So why were you motivated to pick up the flute again, Kerry?

[00:07:59] Carrie: [00:08:00] It really happened, well it was the end of last year and it was heading towards Christmas and it was at the same time that my three sons had started learning their own instruments for the first time. And I started feeling this envy and some regret for not having continued. with an instrument that I played as a child, which was the flute.

[00:08:23] And I just thought, wouldn't it be wonderful if we created a family ensemble or band? And there was a particular Christmas song that I love. And so the idea was for us to play as a family, which didn't quite happen. I did pick up the flute. I, um, relearned, which was challenging at first, but then suddenly everything fluttered back, which was.

[00:08:46] It's encouraging. Um, but the, yeah, the fantasy didn't quite fulfill, but it hasn't gone away. And so it's still on the cards, hopefully for this year.

[00:08:57] Ross: I think, watch this space, Peasoopers. And can I ask, Kerry, what are the other instruments in your family ensemble?

[00:09:03] Carrie: in the family. So I have a piano player, a guitar player. My partner had played the violin when he was a child and then my little one is still little, so we thought we might give him the tambourine or something like that to join in.

[00:09:19] Ross: Excellent. That's quite a combo. Yeah. Now, Kerry, I've presented a little bit about your career and some things we've found out about you. you and your endeavors. But I wonder if you could expand on that a bit. Talk about how you've got to where you've got to in your career and your life and maybe some of those pivotal moments.

[00:09:42] Carrie's Career / Background

[00:09:42] Carrie: So my career as a psychologist, I sort of, I say that I fell into it in a way, although I guess you could look little bit more spiritually or deeper in terms of, of why I ended up there, but I didn't study psychology at school, which is what I [00:10:00] find interesting. Um, it was in the same stream as, um, Another subject I'd chosen, so it was a clash and it was when psychology was quite a sort of a newer subject, it hadn't been around that long in terms of secondary schooling.

[00:10:15] And so I, as I said, I hadn't studied it, but my favourite subject at school was biology. And so in thinking about what university programs to apply for, I found a double degree, which was psychology, psychophysiology. Which sounded really interesting. Um, obviously the psychophysiology. being connected to my, my interest in biology.

[00:10:37] So I got into that program and in my first year, yeah, I was introduced to psychology and interestingly, I decided to actually continue with, with psychology and dropped the psychophysiology. Um, mostly because I then ended up stopping universities for other reasons. And so they didn't actually offer that double, double degree at the second university.

[00:11:01] And. Yeah, I was fascinated by the study of the human condition and probably really never looked back from there. I think the other thing I've, I've always reflected, my dad said very early on that he wasn't surprised that I moved in that direction. I'm the youngest of three and was exceptionally shy as a child. And so very quiet. And he believes that I was the one kind of always standing back and observing and whether that was I guess, uh, an inclination that was always there or even, um, something I developed over time, which was a bit of a side effect, I guess, of being shy. And so, as I said, I kind of fell into it, but maybe there was something else going on at the same time.

[00:11:54] and so I did my, my years of training. I had two years living in the [00:12:00] UK in the middle of that. which was great because it really. Consolidated. my desire to keep going to, to then continue with postgrad when I got back and I graduated in 2007 and my work placement, my final work placement for the program, I was working at a, a Melbourne hospital and in the psychology department, it was a great department.

[00:12:25] DIscovering ACT

[00:12:25] Carrie: What they did is anybody. Within the department who did any sort of professional development training, they would. organize in staff meetings for people to then actually present on their training and sort of provide an overview. And I remember somebody had been to an ACT workshop and I had never heard of ACT.

[00:12:47] Uh, wasn't really at all. I don't think it was even mentioned in, in the degree that I, the program that I was in at university. And I remember being super confused. I remember that the person who had presented the summary, she, she pretty much presented the hexaflex and was sort of going and explaining all the different processes of the hexaflex.

[00:13:11] And as I said, I remember being super confused by it, but, but what, what interests me reflecting on that now is that there was obviously something in it that really part of my interest because I think it was probably even the same year that I, um, did my first introductory workshop, which was one of Russ Harris's introductory workshops.

[00:13:31] And that was really the beginning of, so even before I'd fully graduated and started working as a registered psych, I had already started dipping my toes in ACT, which was great. I haven't looked back,

[00:13:43] Ross: Wow, thank you. Thank you so much. It's great to hear. It makes me smile when you say you were super confused when you were first presented with that hexaflex. I agree. I have some colleagues who might use it [00:14:00] with organisations and I respect them enormously for doing that, but I would never contemplate it because it takes people to a very heady place, I think, a cognitive place, wanting to understand.

[00:14:13] Whereas I really want people to experience those processes.

[00:14:17] Carrie: mm. And I think particularly hard to teach in, in such a short time frame as well. so, but as I said, there was obviously something in it. And, and interestingly, I find with clients when I'm introducing them, or even just describing it, um, in the first instance, it's, it's, it's incredible how many people respond with, Oh, that's exactly what I'm looking for.

[00:14:39] Before I've even gone into any explanation, purely just by the name, I think the words acceptance and commitment can really draw people in. And so perhaps it was even just that for me too.

[00:14:54] Ross: Yeah, maybe. Now, I noticed some, some similarities with me. I, I was accepted to study physiology at uni

[00:15:03] and I went to a Scottish university, which is generally a four year course. And the first year is more a sort of consolidation of the, the exams you do at school, we call A levels.

[00:15:14] Carrie: Mm,

[00:15:14] Ross: So, I ended up doing biology, chemistry, physiology and psychology in my first year

[00:15:19] Carrie: wow.

[00:15:20] Ross: I similarly, I loved biology but I was so taken with psychology that I ended up doing that as my honors degree in stitching,

[00:15:27] physiology.

[00:15:29] Carrie: there you go. Very similar.

[00:15:31] Ross: So just thinking, oh, that's interesting. More than one person has done that. And, and, and no regrets there. No regrets. I found it absolutely fascinating. But you talked about being very shy, your dad observing you were very shy. If you were, with the skills you have now and the insights you have now, is there anything you'd say to your, your shy self back then?

[00:15:53] Carrie: think the first thing I would do is normalise it, in the sense, I think, even though not [00:16:00] everybody would necessarily describe themselves as shy. I think what comes along with the experience of being shy, which can be the internal discomfort, it can be the self doubt and the narratives that go on, you know, that's something that's really shared by us all in some shape or form.

[00:16:19] Ross: Hmm, yeah, Do you consider yourself to be still an observer? Or you've honed those skills during your training, I guess.

[00:16:26] Carrie: Yeah, I would say so. I think many of us in this field have experienced that reaction when you're at a party, at a dinner party, socially someone asks what you do, you say you're a therapist, psychologist of some sort. And often the reaction is, are you analyzing me? and so, you know, my response to that will often be, I don't think I am consciously.

[00:16:51] And, and I, and I mean, again, it's the ability to observe. And I think the interest in observation is something shared by us all. But as you say, I think that the difference is that there is more skill trained, you know, the, the more formal training in that skill that, that we experience in this field.

[00:17:12] Ross: Hmm, yeah, and I think there's an element of turning that switch on and off, that there's

[00:17:16] Carrie: Yes.

[00:17:16] Ross: sort of I'm in that mode now and I guess you can never completely switch it off, but that, that response of, are you analyzing me?

[00:17:24] A Place To Be

[00:17:24] Ross: Is

[00:17:26] Carrie: Certainly in a clinical way we can switch it off, definitely. Maybe not in a human way.

[00:17:32] Ross: yeah. Yeah.

[00:17:33] So tell me about a place to be. I'm curious about this mindfulness and meditation studio.

[00:17:38] Carrie: so, this started, this is something I started oh, I think coming up to, let's say 10 years now. Um, and it was something, a concept, an initiative that evolved over time. I actually partnered with an old school friend of mine to, we started running mindfulness based programs out [00:18:00] in workplaces, actually, and in the community as well.

[00:18:03] We called them mindfulness programs, but it fundamentally was acceptance and commitment therapy. We just didn't call it that because, um, Most people don't necessarily know what that means. and then through that work, it was when meditation had really skyrocketed in more of a mainstream as a mainstream practice.

[00:18:22] And so people were wanting meditation classes. They were hungry for it, particularly after we'd delivered these programs. Very often we would get, you know, the question would be, well, what can we do next? Where can we keep going with this practice? So, at the time I was looking for more new clinic rooms.

[00:18:40] I needed to, yeah, find a new space for my private practice. And I thought, why not find somewhere that can have a bigger space at the same time and start running some classes and workshops from there. And. So, yeah, that's how it really came to be. And it has, it has evolved over that time. my private practice was still my main focus.

[00:19:03] And so it made sense to then use that space for other teachers and trainers to come and share what they do at the same time.

[00:19:12] Ross: Great. And what's the drive behind you? Cause you also, you also founded the community fundraising event, the mindful walk. What's your drive to Share this more widely. Tell me about that.

[00:19:25] Carrie: So that, that came around the same time. My, my business partner and I. We, I just remember we were sitting down, I think it was still in the early stages of setting this up and given the demand that we were noticing, um, for people to have more access to this practice in a group way, I think in a community based way, um, also to be continued to be guided as well.

[00:19:56] and. Given how many, you know, [00:20:00] charity walks and fundraising events do exist. We thought, wouldn't it be great if we, you know, use the same concept, but rather than the race to the finish line, which a lot of these fun runs are, it's almost the opposite. Let's, let's slow everyone down. and for it to be an opportunity for, as I said, people to come together, experience. the practice of being mindful, but with each other as well. So really creating that sense of, of connection with one another. And so it was a silent walk. and then we thought, let's actually support, uh, a charity that's doing a lot of work in the mental health space. And so that was, that was, I guess, the extra, uh, component that allowed people to feel like they were.

[00:20:56] That we're contributing to that as well as developing a practice that could hopefully benefit themselves. And so we ran it three times before COVID hit and we haven't picked it up again since. So thinking about how that could continue to evolve. I think people really, loved it. It was quite intimate and small.

[00:21:19] Um, but I'm also mindful of the fact that there's a lot that exists in this charity event space. And so it's, it's, I think, very important to keep it unique and accessible as well. So we'll see where it goes.

[00:21:33] Ross: I love the concept of we're not striving to win. The idea of a silent walk is, it's almost counterintuitive, I guess.

[00:21:46] Carrie: Very much so. And it was amazing how many people would reflect on their experience and say how hard they found it, how hard they, because a lot of people would do it with friends or family. And so there'd be work [00:22:00] walking alongside loved ones. And it's quite rare to do that. And not talk and, and the discomfort that people would experience in that silence was really fascinating.

[00:22:11] And I think, again, it says a lot about our experience as human beings there.

[00:22:16] Ross: And you said you took some of the mindfulness or ACT training to workplaces. How did you find it landed there?

[00:22:23] Carrie: I found that, look, it definitely landed. I found the biggest challenge was being able to. Simplify and deliver these powerful concepts in such a short time frame, which it would typically was. I found a lot of organizations and I'd love to hear your experience here Ross, but a lot of organizations want the one hour or two hour workshops.

[00:22:46] You know, that's often all I can can afford, time wise more than anything. And yeah, I found that really challenging.

[00:22:54] Ross: Yeah, me too, me too, absolutely. When you get an organisation that says, Um, I've got 45 minutes, I want my leaders to become more psychologically skilled and less stressed, and, can you do it next Tuesday, and we have no budget. And this was a, this was a friend of mine, an HR director,

[00:23:15] Carrie: wow.

[00:23:17] Ross: and I said, That's quite offensive to your people,

[00:23:20] Carrie: mm

[00:23:22] Ross: that you're willing to have a 45 minutes, and it's at lunch time too, so you're digging into that opportunity to disconnect from work, and it doesn't seem quite ethical, and I could do something, but it would take longer than 45 minutes,

[00:23:39] Carrie: Mm

[00:23:40] Ross: and I walked away from that opportunity because I didn't feel it was ethical.

[00:23:45] I think it was giving the entirely the wrong message about how much time this organization was willing to invest for their people. And I was also disappointed. We've since had chats about it since and I've done something longer for them,

[00:23:58] Carrie: Oh, great.

[00:23:58] Ross: which felt, it's [00:24:00] never perfect with organizations, I think. I was given two hours and people could volunteer to come and basically I did a taster of ACT.

[00:24:07] Carrie: Mm.

[00:24:07] Ross: And they'd also agreed to a follow up program for those who were interested, which was more based around a protocol I developed with Paul Flaxman at City Uni.

[00:24:16] Carrie: Okay.

[00:24:17] Ross: we got a, we got loads of people wanted to convert that two hour experience into a, a four session program. So much so that we had a wait, a wait list,

[00:24:26] Carrie: Wow.

[00:24:27] Ross: which showed how ACT can really resonate with people and they're curious to find out more.

[00:24:33] So it turned out all right in the end, but it's sometimes it's just positioning it with organizations because I, I remember another potential client and they say, Oh. The, the sort of HR leads were really keen, they understood, they really got it. So they had an all staff event and it was like, think it was about 50 people

[00:24:50] Carrie: Wow.

[00:24:52] Ross: online, including the CEO.

[00:24:53] And the CEO struck me as a slightly unusual to begin with because behind him he had, you know, one of those virtual backgrounds, he had the, he had this kind of roaring fire, but it was, it wasn't quite a modest roaring fire. It was like,

[00:25:07] Carrie: Roaring.

[00:25:08] Ross: his, almost filling his screen.

[00:25:12] And he kind of looked like sort of Lucifer type character, which made me,

[00:25:16] Carrie: can see.

[00:25:17] Ross: which made me a little bit nervous.

[00:25:20] Carrie: Mmm.

[00:25:21] Ross: But I was presenting to them and talking about how we can pause and just notice what's showing up for us, notice what's going on around us, noticing what might be happening in our minds that might be derailing us.

[00:25:33] And the CEO piped up and said, but we're a fast organization. We don't have time just to pause and notice

[00:25:38] Carrie: To slow down.

[00:25:40] Ross: And I was gently putting it to him that, well, actually, you might notice if you did this, you'd become even more effective and collaborative and a aware as a, as a being as an organization.

[00:25:54] And it could also enhance people's wellbeing in that busy environment.

[00:25:58] Carrie: Mmm.

[00:25:59] Ross: He [00:26:00] didn't buy it at all. And once he started expressing doubt, then other people started chipping in. Because you know that we, we tend to role model, or our bosses tend to role model for us. And we want to agree with the boss sometimes.

[00:26:14] So people were agreeing with him. And it, it didn't turn out badly. I did get a bit of support, muted support from the HR folk, but it was,

[00:26:24] Carrie: Okay.

[00:26:25] Ross: I wasn't invited to, to deliver anything further. In fact, in fact, it was very difficult to get hold of the HR people after that, because I think they were just a bit embarrassed.

[00:26:37] Carrie: Yeah, okay.

[00:26:39] Ross: And I learned. It's, it's all learning that we can think, well, how could I present it differently? What, what avenues could I take differently for that type of organization? And, and obviously that it would have been a, difficult challenge to work with that organization, given the stance of the CEO.

[00:26:57] Carrie: Mm.

[00:26:58] Ross: So I was possibly saved from that.

[00:27:01] I'd love to go back to them. That was probably about two years ago or longer. I'd love to go back to them and say, Hey, how's it going? But I'm not rushing, I don't think, at the moment.

[00:27:12] Carrie: When the time's right. But yeah, I mean, I guess organizations are no different to individuals in that way in terms of their readiness. It depends on their readiness.

[00:27:22] Ross: And I kind of like an organization that's slightly more ready.

[00:27:26] Carrie: Yeah. It makes it a bit easier.

[00:27:29] Zanzibar

[00:27:29] Ross: Yeah. Now, now, Carrie, I want to talk to you about Zanzibar

[00:27:35] and tell me when the seed of that idea came, came to you.

[00:27:40] Carrie: There's a bit of a pattern here, Ross, and in thinking about how all these things have landed for me, I think that that's quite characteristic of my nature, which is that I'm not the most, I'm not, it's not in my nature to be a planner is what I'm trying to say. So I'm quite spontaneous in the moment and so is [00:28:00] my partner.

[00:28:00] So the two of us together means that our life is not overly planned, which there's upsides to that. Um, but look how it came about. My partner was due for long service leave with his organization. And. We felt like our children were at this sort of sweet spot in terms of their ages. And, and so we decided to, to have six months.

[00:28:25] overseas somewhere. And this was coming towards the end of, I guess, the end of, well, I think our fifth or sixth lockdown here in Melbourne during COVID. And so there was sort of many factors in that. And Zanzibar came about because we were looking at various volunteer programs. we decided to go somewhere where we could be of service.

[00:28:51] So experience, experience a different way of life and, and be of service to the community, in whatever their needs were. And so we were looking at, as I said, various volunteer programs. And in that process, Zanzibar, um, we were particularly looking at East Africa and Zanzibar was some, somewhere they just sort of kept coming up.

[00:29:11] And I think it, it grabbed our interest because it, because it's a tourist destination, it felt quite safe. it sounded really beautiful and in the end, we didn't go through a volunteer organization. A lot of the ones we were talking to aren't really equipped for families. And so we decided, let's just go for it.

[00:29:35] organize some accommodation, we'll land there, we'll see what work we could find once we were there. And that was the other consideration we felt like, um, we really wanted it to be for the community, not for ourselves. And that's a really interesting one because I think in any altruistic work, It's not one or the other, really, is it?

[00:29:57] And, and so I was accepting of [00:30:00] that, but at the same time I really wanted to make sure we were actually going to be of help. And so we, as I said, we found some accommodation in Zanzibar, booked a, plane, ticket for all five of us, and we landed, and everything kind of happened from there.

[00:30:16] We found an international school for the kids, Interestingly, we found one while we were still in Australia, but ended up sending them to another one. There were quite a few options once we were there and yeah, everything just happened from there.

[00:30:30] Ross: Wow.

[00:30:31] Carrie: the time that we decided to do it to the executing it, it wasn't long. I think it was only two or three months, which in a way I think was easier. I think it, it allowed us to not overthink it. as much as, as I said, we felt like it was the right window for our children at the same time.

[00:30:50] You're obviously going to be quite, thoughtful about it being the right experience for them. So to not overthink it and just get there. And our mentality was if it doesn't work out, we'll leave. But it did, which was wonderful.

[00:31:07] Ross: I love that. Just kind of trusting the process. I absolutely agree. If you give yourself more time to overthink it, then those doubts might start to creep in

[00:31:19] Carrie: Hmm.

[00:31:20] Ross: me and my husband moved to Spain in 2021

[00:31:24] Carrie: All

[00:31:24] right. Yeah.

[00:31:25] Ross: to live on a big adventure. He's Spanish and I always said, We made the decision. We sold our flat where we lived in Brighton.

[00:31:35] It was a longer decision but I always said we'll not plan it all out. The things we need to do when we arrive. Because I know what I'm like. If we planned it all out I'd have just been overwhelmed

[00:31:46] Carrie: Mm.

[00:31:47] Ross: by all the things we had to do.

[00:31:49] Carrie: Mm. There you go. Overwhelmed. And I think my partner and I are similar in that, the, the feeling of being locked in. I think it really [00:32:00] helped us to go, let's just land there, see what happens. We'll try it. We'll experience it. But we're not locked in.

[00:32:09] Ross: Hmm. And would you say you were using kind of ACT processes there for yourself?

[00:32:15] Carrie: Mm. A lot. Particularly once we arrived. Act came in very handy.

[00:32:22] Ross: So what were your, what were your values in this adventure?

[00:32:27] Carrie: We really, a big motivating factor for us was for our children in particular to experience a different way of life. So I think it was giving them that opportunity, helping to, Expose them to different culture, different experiences. And in a way, it was most Look, this probably wasn't so conscious at the time, but it was something that became quite clear to me, not, you know, quite soon after we got there.

[00:32:58] It was the exposing them to discomfort as well

[00:33:02] Ross: Hmm.

[00:33:03] Carrie: and recognising how counterintuitive that is. for anyone, but as a parent in this context.

[00:33:11] Ross: Yeah. Can you unpack that a bit more, please, for the listeners?

[00:33:17] Carrie: It was interesting. Um, I mean, it was quite a culture shock to begin with. and that's also the fact that, as I said, this is on the back of two years during COVID we'd had many lockdowns. we'd arrived in a country where there wasn't any sign that COVID had sort of hit. And so we've gone from wearing masks.

[00:33:38] And, uh, that was very different in Zanzibar. And it was also, you know, you're jet lagged. It was extremely hot. And I remember we walked into the accommodation we had booked and there were some things that I thought, Oh, okay, is this going to be right for us? We'd, we'd, we'd booked [00:34:00] for the first three months of being there.

[00:34:02] And there was a, there was a few, you know, teething problems, let's say. So a few sewage problems in the bathroom, there wasn't really a kitchen. There was sort of just a bench with a sink. And so my immediate reaction was, Yeah, is this going to, to be the best environment for us? And, and should we be looking at other options?

[00:34:25] And it was actually my partner that said to me, yeah, but that's not why we're here. He said, you know, we could go down the road and find, because Zanzibar is really interesting. We were, um, particularly where we were, we were, living in stontown, which is the old city of Zanzibar. And so we were living in more of a local area, but it is only 15 minutes, 20 minutes down the road where there's the tourists kind of hot, we've Hotels and more of your sort of Western experience.

[00:34:55] And so it was actually, yeah, right. My partner turned around and said, yeah, but that's not why we're here. So we could go down the road to more of a more familiar experience, but that's not why we're here. And as soon as he said that it was like this jolt back to my values, I guess, essentially, and, and the reasons for why we were doing what we were doing.

[00:35:20] But, but that's what I mean in terms of. exposing ourselves to discomfort. And, and it was twofold because it was our own. I was actually really, the kids were fine. And that's what really fascinated me that they didn't really even notice. but what I noticed over time was because there was things that obviously they then did, um, you know, that were challenging for them in starting a new school, my youngest was starting school for the first time.

[00:35:49] So it was a big, a big step for him. And it's your natural instinct to want to make it easy for them and comfortable for them. And so I kept needing to [00:36:00] notice that instinct and then take a step back and Remind myself again, why are we here? And, and obviously I'm, you know, we weren't going to flood them with discomfort.

[00:36:12] It was not about throwing them in the deep end and, and obviously doing it in a really safe way as well. But I just found it so fascinating that I needed to keep noticing that it was not like that stopped coming up. That instinct didn't stop. It kept coming up. And so it required ongoing awareness really.

[00:36:31] Ross: Wow. I love that phrase. I think it's such a great reframe. That's not why we're here.

[00:36:38] Carrie: That's not why we're here, yeah. Mmm.

[00:36:41] Ross: So powerful.

[00:36:44] Carrie: That's all it, all it took for me to go, Ah, yep, you're right. We're in the right place. This is where we're meant to be. Mmm.

[00:36:52] Ross: seeking comfort and seeking the familiar rather than just reconnecting with what matters. Beautiful, I absolutely love that. And what would you say, I'm sure there's so many things you learned and experienced in that time in Zanzibar, but are there any highlights of the learning that you'd share with us?

[00:37:13] Carrie: The other main thing that stood out to me very early on was, I guess what, what you, it's certainly I can only speak for myself, but what I had heard of these cultures in developing countries and the slowness that can often exist in the non Western world. And I was fascinated by when we would walk down, you know, again, Stone Town's this beautiful town where there's winding alleyways and we would be walking down the alleyways.

[00:37:49] And one thing I remember experiencing, I ended up doing a, um, a bit of remote work. So I would see [00:38:00] clients by telehealth from Melbourne two days a week. And I rented a, a, a little space at one of the, one of the hostels. For me to be able to do this work, and I would often be running late as I often am, and it felt really jarring to notice myself rush through this, you know, drop the kids off at school, rushing to get to my first client for the day. And it was like there was one moment I just kind of looked around me and realized I was the only person. That was walking fast. And not only was I the only person walking fast, but I would have a keep cup in my hand. I would make my instant coffee before I left and you didn't ever see a keep, certainly not a keep cup, but not even a takeaway cup in anybody's hand because It just wasn't a thing to take your coffee away. You sit and have your coffee before you move. And so here I was rushing through the streets with my takeaway coffee. And it was so lovely because a really common phrase that the local Zanzibaris use is poli poli, which means to go slowly and go gently. And they would say it so often in, in a really.

[00:39:21] protective way almost. They would say it so often to foreigners because they notice this difference of, of the pace. And I was so fascinated by that firstly, but also you would see locals sitting for hours on end outside their homes, outside their shop fronts. epitomizing the essence of being. And, and it really, it really stood out to me also because not only was there this stillness and this presence that they embodied, I also noticed, I also realized no [00:40:00] one's, no one's on their phone that not only are they still and Not really doing anything in, in how we conceptualize doing, I guess, but there were no phones in hands.

[00:40:14] And I thought, wow, like you would never, I remember my mind immediately went back to just visualizing. where I live in Melbourne or, you know, really anywhere in, in, in us, you know, in, in this part of the world where you'd never see, or hardly I shouldn't say never, but hardly ever see someone sitting and being without most likely.

[00:40:38] So there were all these different components, like, that really stood out, this difference, and, as I said, how the local Zanzibaris just really embodied that essence of being.

[00:40:54] Ross: Wow, I love the way you described that. I'm so pleased you talked about Polly Polly because listeners there is a beautiful blog that Carrie's written called Polly Polly and I'll make sure I put a link to that blog and others in the show notes because it's, it's so powerful. Tell me again what it means.

[00:41:14] That's,

[00:41:17] Carrie: um, it's fundamentally go slowly. And I found a definition that was also go slow, go slowly and go gently. And I think I just liked that one because I think there was something about the gentleness that really, really connected to me. This

[00:41:34] Song Choice

[00:41:34] Ross: beautiful. Thank you so much. Now Carrie, there's a question I ask all my guests about a song choice. A song choice to announce your arrival in a room for the next few weeks. Not forever, but it could be a virtual room, it could be you going to the supermarket, you arriving home. Now, what song have you chosen?

[00:41:54] And tell us a bit about why you've chosen it.

[00:41:58] Carrie: is a hard one, [00:42:00] Ross. Um, there were two that I was. I'm just tossing between, but I've landed on a song called Saturn by a band called Sleeping at Last. And look at the reason why I chose this song. It's one of my favorite pieces. I find it incredibly beautiful and moving. Um, it's a song that starts off instrumental and it's, it has this composition of instruments that just seem to reach deep into your soul. And then there is vocals at the end of the piece, and there's one line in the lyrics that is almost, I could say, my favourite line in any song. And I actually use that in, in my books. Um, so it just goes to show how much I've connected to it. But the line in the song is how rare and beautiful it truly is that we even exist.

[00:43:04] Ross: Wonderful.

[00:43:06] That's it, Peasoopers, the first part of my chat with Carrie in the bag. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. Next week, we'll be talking about Carrie's brilliant book collection, Being Human. Now, we need your help.

[00:43:23] You can support us and help us reach more people with this behavioral science. So.

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[00:44:08] Thanks to Andy Glenn for his spoon magic and Alex Engelberg for his vocals. Most of all, dear listener, thanks to you. Look after yourselves, peace supers, and bye for now.

[00:44:17] Carrie: And so here I was rushing through the streets with my takeaway coffee. And it was so lovely because a really common phrase that the local Zanzibaris use is poli poli, which means to go slowly and go gently.