[00:00:00] Hannah: So I started my morning with the most beautiful conversation, and I don't even know whether I should have said, you know, it is a Friday morning. Because in podcasts you always want it to feel like whatever time you're tuning in, that's the time you're listening to the conversation. And it does feel like a live conversation, but.

Just to paint a picture, it's a Friday morning. We had an early conversation, early recording scheduled, and I had Isobelle Penton on the podcast, and you may know her as the corporate agony aunt, and I've been following her and she's been one of those people where I'm like, ah, I need to reach out. I need to have her on the podcast.

I love her energy. I love her vibe because it's such a contradiction to. My world to my awfully quiet, introspective, introverted personality. And you will see in this conversation that they don't contradict each other. There is something beautiful that happens when extroverts and introverts meet each other.

And especially for me, I often feel like a little bit of a chameleon, and we will talk about this. In the conversation tool that I feel so much at ease with somebody like Isobelle and sometimes I'm prior to going into these interviews with people I haven't met before and I've just seen online and they obviously badass online and putting out great content.

I'm a little bit nervous to, you know, how it will feel like to whether I can, you know, match their energy. And I take so much from these conversations from people like Isobelle, and I am genuinely so thankful and happy that I can bring conversations to life like this for you and for you to be tuning into that and for you to be getting some of that energy, there will be some elements that might make you feel uncomfortable, that might make you.

stretch out of your comfort zone a little, which is exactly what I want for you. just because it's not the normal, like, you know, stop what you're doing and, you know, put some boundaries and you know, it's okay to not work hard because what I often try and find here is this intersection of. Stay who you are.

Be strong in your quiet, introverted nature. Use that, leverage it, bring it to the table, but also stretch out of your comfort zone just enough to continue to grow, to show up, to make sure that you're being seen, to make sure that your work is being recognized. And so I think this conversation is. Going to do that for you and is hopefully going to put you into in that energy.

And, yeah, so grateful for Isabelle to join us this morning.and without further ado, we'll dive into the interview. thank you so much for joining me today, and welcome to the Awfully Quiet podcast.

[00:03:01] Isobelle: Thank you for having me. I'm absolutely flattered to be here.

[00:03:03] Hannah: I am so excited to be speaking with you this morning, and I would love to start with a question that I ask every guest on the podcast, and that is, what's a quiet strength that has helped you in your career that maybe was a little bit underestimated or that you've not seen as a strength to begin with, but turned out to be powerful for you?

[00:03:22] Isobelle: so one that my dad used to say about me and I couldn't comprehend why it was important when we were younger was that he said, you know how to work a room, and people would assume that that's allowed. Strength. People would assume that that's about being the loudest girl in the room, being uber confident and extroverted.

But it was never that. It was about being able to work the different characters in the room and knowing how to speak and wanting to speak to people differently based on their needs and their communication needs. And that's really influenced my career and my trajectory because I've sort of harnessed that quiet strength of.

Knowing who to gravitate towards, knowing who needs a bit of a quieter conversation, knowing who wants the loud, extra versions, boisterous version of me. And I never really saw it until now as a strength. 'cause people would never say that that is a skill set per se. But in actual fact it is like communication skills, confidence, inter skills.

So a quiet strength is the ability to, to flex my personality based on an individual's needs, but also to. You know, be around the pool on holiday and see a girl reading a book and think, let me make some small talk about that book, because that girl looks like she'd love a conversation. So,

[00:04:31] Hannah: Hmm.

[00:04:32] Isobelle: niche probably,

[00:04:33] Hannah: love that. I think it's, it is social competence to like flex your style around people. Do you feel like you do that with your girlfriends as well? Do you

[00:04:42] Isobelle: Yeah. Yeah. I have a really diverse group of friends. I wouldn't say I don't have that sorority group of friends. I've never had that. I used to think I wanted it, but I'm glad I don't now. I have individual friends, a lot of individual friends, and a couple of groups, but they're all very, very. Drastically different.

And I think the connotation reflects in your personality is quite a negative one, as if it's contrived or insincere, but that's not the case. It's more being accommodating. And there's various versions of myself you just mentioned about sort of having the social confidence. Some days I do not have that.

Some rooms I don't, I do not have that. And it's just anyway for myself and for other people and my, for my friends. So yeah, definitely.

[00:05:21] Hannah: No, and I ask because I do the, the exactly the same thing. I of often feel like a chameleon. Like I have so much, it's so many different kinds of friends that they wouldn't get along with each other, but I get along with each of them individually and it's just this weird thing. But it's just who, how, how it's, I think it is a strength.

[00:05:39] Isobelle: It is for my 30th birthday, I decided to bring a, a random group of friends together and I thought, this will be fine. It wasn't. I still love them dearly, but you know, it is. It is interesting, isn't it? It's a unique skill to be able to be that chameleon and to enjoy doing it. To enjoy doing.

[00:05:56] Hannah: Yeah. It's just different sides of you that come out with different kinds of people.

[00:06:00] Isobelle: Yeah,

[00:06:00] Hannah: love that.do you skew more towards extroversion or introversion? Where are you on that spectrum and how has that affected your career? Or how much of your personality have you been bringing into your career?

What did that look like?

[00:06:12] Isobelle: Yeah, I would say my personality and my career are inextricably linked because I'm consistently myself at work and at home, and I've always led into workplaces where I can be because I'm, you know, I know friends that work for the Big Four, or really corporate companies who do have to be a versions, so I'm very fortunate in that sense.

I'm quite consistent, but it comes to introversion and extroversion. There would be an assumption that I am a out and out natural. Ruthless extrovert to an extent, but I've done all of the, you know, personality testing, my big psychometric testing, and it'll tell you that I am a natural extrovert, but I have an affinity for introversion.

So that for me, might look like I. I'll entertain you all day from six in the morning till six o'clock in the evening. But I'll get home and I'll honestly feel nonverbal and overwhelmed and overstimulated, and people say, oh, that's just sort of fatigue. But I do really crave and need that isolation and that quiet time to recharge.

And

[00:07:10] Hannah: Hmm.

[00:07:10] Isobelle: tiresome to always feel as though. I feel as though I'm quite, I'm criticized quite strongly or I'm under more scrutiny than others. So when I'm on extroversion mode, I, I really feel that I'm sort of performing as much as I can to the best of my ability to demonstrate the best version of myself.

And so sometimes I can get home and feel like I take that mask off and I feel exhausted. So

[00:07:36] Hannah: I, I think that's very natural and we're all on the spectrum, right? We're not just. Either one of them. And what I love about extroverts, especially when it comes to the workplace, is that it feels easier to be yourself and to stay true to who you are, to bring your full personality. That is always something that an introvert might find really, really difficult.

And that was it for me, really. Did you ever have trouble being yourself? Did you have to learn that or did you just, was, did that just come natural to you, especially in the corporate world?

[00:08:08] Isobelle: I, I have, I have had trouble being myself because I would say that like. Some versions of me people can tolerate the, the, the version of me that is outwardly quite ambitious and outspoken and willing to have difficult conversation. People find that a tough pill to swallow. It's not very palatable. So the natural disposition as the eldest daughter who was to talk to debate things at the dinner table from a young age that sometimes is tapered because I'm in a room with people who perceive themselves to be senior than me and therefore I should be quieter.

So it. It's easy in a sense because I've able to, I've been able to socialize myself at work and really get on with people and understand networking without having to give it much thought. But at the same time, there are still rooms where people would prefer it, that I am quiet, that my disposition was quieter or, or that I showed more deference and, you know, ask for forgiveness more rather than permission.

So.

[00:09:02] Hannah: Hmm. A little humbler. Hmm

[00:09:04] Isobelle: Yeah. It depends. Rather than the company, it depends on the, the colleagues. I would say that you're around in any given company.

mm Isn't that so weird that we tell the extroverts to be a little humbler and we tell all the introverts to be, you know, to speak up more and to be a little louder and, can't never get it right, can we? We don't tell men to do either of them. They just turn it. It's definitely a female trait.

[00:09:27] Hannah: No, you are absolutely right. And I love that you said that. talk to me about your corporate experience and what made you start corporate agony armed.

[00:09:35] Isobelle: Was there any kind of turning point or any kind of, point in time that made you go out and say, look, I have to talk about this online. So many, so many points in time. I think my career, I would describe my career first and foremost as successful. And again, that's not maybe a very feminine thing to say, to say that I've absolutely smashed it and I'm really proud of myself to have done, done. So.that's not to say. I would never want the people to think that there wasn't absolute adversity and there doesn't continue to.

So I faced so much racism outwardly, overtly, passively, sexism. I've worked in some of the most toxic cultures, but I've still managed to navigate those times and still managed to enjoy some of it, you know? And I think that was one of the catalysts for corporate Agni on in that everyone is always coming to me for career advice.

My whole life, since I was, since I could help someone write, write a cv, and I've always. Wanted to sort of coin that into something bigger because the, the intrinsic reward I would feel from helping you, Hannah, with anything that you wanted to do and you achieved it, is so satisfying. It's so satisfying to me.

So that it's more of a personal motivation. But on top of that, I think I. People view careers in particular as like, well, I have a bad job right now, or I have a bad manager right now, or I have a bad culture and so I have to do something about it. I must leave. But really, I try and help people zoom out and see that whilst that might be bad in the moment, if your home life is going beautifully and swimmingly, and this job that might be a bit difficult is actually allowing you to facilitate a.

Beautiful, beautiful life and you have to ascertain whether or not this moment at work, these moments every day are as bad as they feel or is it that we go into work and we, we get boxed down by the politics and everything. So I think I really want to give people perspective on a successful career that has had its adversity and speak from my lived experience because my experience of careers resources more formally has been that there.

A little bit inaccessible. A lot of people have watched the walk, but potentially not for years. So generationally, we're all experiencing careers differently, and I just think there needs to be a place where you and I both do it, where we give advice on a medium where people want to consume it. So. It's multifaceted.

Some of my experience has been in education. I see how few people have really great corporate role models and how they don't have the networks to access, and it's so many things. It's an accumulation of all the stuff I've enjoyed in my career and how I spend my life socially helping others, and it just conflated into corporate acne and lot sorts on maternity leave.

And before I know it, I'm posting silly little videos every single day.

[00:12:12] Hannah: Oh, that's so silly. Come on. no, I love that, that it sort of came natural to you, that people gravitated to you for career advice and then, and you do that really, really well. I think you're really badass for doing it. did you, was there ever a point where you thought to yourself, corporate is not for me, because especially on the internet, There's such a trend of like leaving corporate to pursue entrepreneurship, to pursue an online business. Was that ever a thought that you had?

[00:12:39] Isobelle: Spoke about this yesterday to my friend, actually, and, and I would not change a single day of my corporate life to date and, the rest of my corporate life, whatever that looks like, because I think you can't be a good entrepreneur or founder or leader or freelancer if you've not experienced the context of corporate.

So I do, I think it's super important to have a corporate job and to, to glamorize your nine to five and the life it can create because really only on. 12 to 18 months ago did I start understanding my desire for passive income streams and for multiple income streams. So my corporate life have got me to right here today, sat in front of you talking, and I, I'm thankful for it.

For that everyone makes you feel like you need to quit your job and become the next Steven bar. There's, it is just not, it's just not doable. but what I will say is I'm in, in a stage of my life where I ring my sister most days and say, what even is corporate? What, like what are we all doing here, guys?

And I listened to a podcast once about how people might think, what am I calling in life right now? Is to go and be a personal trainer. I used to think I wanted to do that or something more, you know. Off grid compared to corporate and the rat race. But, the studies show that everyone that quits the high flying corporate career for something that is drastically different and drastically less sort of industrial isn't satisfied either, because that's not what you've trained your brain for for years.

So for me personally, I think there's a way in which you can blend both. I'm just figuring it out as we speak.

[00:14:08] Hannah: Yeah. And I love that mindset of it doesn't have to be either or can be end. I think this is where careers are going in general. It's like this multihyphenate, it's not either or you can, you can do both, obviously not all at the same time and at all to a hundred percent. But I love that and it's a beautiful take.

[00:14:28] Isobelle: but don't you think that as employees were taking that approach more progressively to have like a multi career or portfolio career, but I think employers are still reticent and hesitant too.

[00:14:40] Hannah: Oh, a hundred percent.

[00:14:42] Isobelle: Recognize that if they want to retain top talent, they have to be able to facilitate these, these blends, and they have to be able to trust that.

Me personally, well, on my working days for you, I will always work. And on my not working days, I will spend them how I see fit, and that's my prerogative. And I think there's a, there's a lag behind the employers viewing these employees as top talent because they see it

[00:15:04] Hannah: percent. Yeah.

[00:15:05] Isobelle: as deviance.

[00:15:06] Hannah: Yeah, yeah. I, I think there's also a lot of people, I mean, myself included, I will not shout about my, side hustle, my podcast, my business in the corporate world, just because I'm like, well, I'd rather not. So.

[00:15:20] Isobelle: It's because it feels, doesn't it like

[00:15:24] Hannah: It feels like you're on your way out. It feels like that's what it communicates. It's like, oh, I'm getting ready to leave, which is not happening at all.

[00:15:32] Isobelle: Exactly, and every single company I've ever worked for, every board of directors has a portfolio of career. They have a portfolio of businesses. And so how, how is it that I have to wait till I'm 50 years old as a non-exec director on a board of directors to be able to have these multiple interests? Why is that reserved for the upper echelons of society when I can achieve that now?

So I, I feel the same way as you. It is unnerving to even put myself on Instagram, knowing my colleagues follow me. And, but I still do. I still do.

[00:16:02] Hannah: Well, a good job for you. I've, well, oh, absolutely. I think it's, it's skills that. You know, they take a little bit of time to hone, like even, you know, building an online following, speaking into a microphone recording podcast, all these types of things, they don't, to me, they, they, they don't come naturally.

And I still feel like I have years to really hone that skill and perfect it. So by the time I am in my forties, fifties, hopefully I'll, I'll be ready to like, you know, lift these parts out fully and, alongside each other. Yeah.

[00:16:36] Isobelle: Now, but I agree. I understand.

[00:16:38] Hannah: Isobelle, what do you think people get wildly wrong about corporate life? What do you wish more people understood?

[00:16:49] Isobelle: I think now, I think it's post pandemic and how it's how sort of we assimilated into our home and work life and by osmosis things crept into one another. I think people are not able to separate themselves from corporate life, and so it becomes an overwhelming, huge part of our. Holistically. Whereas what I think I've become really good at is thinking, this is my job.

I'm not saving lives, I'm saving PDFs, and this is.

[00:17:21] Hannah: Sorry, this.

[00:17:24] Isobelle: I know, but it's just corporate. Like it's, it's almost a simulation. It's almost not. It is not even real. And, and yet we put so much emotion and, and emphasis into how it makes us feel and how others at work might make us feel. And I'm guilty of it too. I'll come home after someone's been rude to me and it'll eat me for days.

But in actual fact. Our work, we have to connect our work, the repetitious practice of turning up to work every single day. We have to connect that to our why. And I think what's, what's misunderstood about corporate is that you have, you go to work for a reason. Most of us have to, but what is that serving?

How is that helping you achieve your goals? And I think there's just a massive disconnect because we brought our work into our homes

[00:18:06] Hannah: Mm

[00:18:06] Isobelle: it just feels there's no boundaries and there's, there's a distinct lack of boundaries I would say.

[00:18:11] Hannah: mm I love that you're saying that. I've recently had a conversation about this, 'cause Gen Z seem to be doing this differently. They don't. Identify as much or that not as much with their corporate jobs as, millennials still did, older generations did, and I feel like that's an advantage. It feels like that's a much healthier way.

[00:18:34] Isobelle: People don't like it, but I, I really rate it. I really rate it. I think the only time that that becomes slightly harmful to your career is if you are capitalizing on fully remote working. You don't go and show face at all. 'cause it feels more comfortable not to do. So. I can appreciate why people do that and that I know that people have accessibility needs.

That means that they can't commute. So I'm not talking about that group of people, but I think that that can become a hindrance when later in your career. You find you've not really built that network around you. And so I do think there's a bit of a fine line between getting it right, protect your peace, put your boundaries up, work from home as much as you need to, blah, blah, blah.

But also ma making sure that you do play the game. And I, I think it's still a really important facet of, of corporate life.

[00:19:21] Hannah: Yeah, I love that. Isobelle, I prepared something that I've not done before and it's a little bit of a quick fire. and it's called say Less or Say it Louder and I'm going to throw some workplace concepts your way and you should say, oh yeah, your point of view, whether we should say less about it or say it louder.

[00:19:39] Isobelle: Am I allowed to explain or shall I just say it?

[00:19:43] Hannah: You can, you can explain a little bit. You can, you know, we have a little bit of time. Cool. All right. The first one, say, let's say louder, is hustle culture.

[00:19:53] Isobelle: Say it louder. I think we went too far one way in saying that like hustle culture is really toxic. Hustle culture is very bro masculine. But in actual fact, like in this world, you have to work hard to get what you want. And I think I. We're creating a narrative whereby people think, oh, I'm never gonna do the extras, but then we'll never achieve the extras.

So I actually am an advocate for the world. The word hustle. A hustle hard, really hard. I had a gym called Hustle. But the culture, the culture as if it's like that way or the highway, that's where, maybe say hustle.

[00:20:28] Hannah: I actually. I actually agree on this. it feels slightly off friend for somebody like me, but I agree. I think hard work, it, it does get us places. There is a point in time where you kind of hit a ceiling and you need to be smarter and you need to do things slightly differently, but especially early careers, I would always agree that going above and beyond and putting it a little bit more than you're expected to is what's going to get you noticed in the first place.

[00:20:54] Isobelle: yeah. Agreed.

[00:20:56] Hannah: Yeah.next one is personal branding at work.

[00:21:00] Isobelle: Say it louder,

[00:21:01] Hannah: Hmm.

[00:21:02] Isobelle: but not in an obnoxious way. Not in a look at me. Self-promotion, shouting about it. Way, think of your personal brand digitally and in real life. So people just think about it as LinkedIn. It isn't just that, but also like, let's show up there. Why not? It's free. It's free. Your only reason you're not doing it is because you're a little bit nervous.

What Hannah from your hometown might think, not you, Hannah. A.

[00:21:24] Hannah: I am nervous about what people.

[00:21:27] Isobelle: Well, respectfully, the people from your hometown, you know, they might see you LinkedIn and laugh, so what. Who cares. So I think say it louder, can appreciate you. Might feel a bit cliche, a bit nerve wracking, but fundamentally to get ahead, people have to know what you're doing. And this narrative that we used to be fed when you, you and I, were probably at the start of our careers about work hard, keep your head down.

You can't, 'cause if you keep your head down, people don't know what your impact is. People don't know your results. They just expect you to come in and be a cog in the machine. And I, I, for one, I'm not, I'm not satisfied with that. So personal branding, say it louder.

[00:22:01] Hannah: I could not agree more. especially for introverts in the workplace who, and I think it is that sense of like, personal branding has become such a buzzword and it has become equal to, oh, your online presence and your LinkedIn and such. But I love what you say about it is in real life and you need to tell people what you're working on, what you're doing, what you're passionate about.

[00:22:22] Isobelle: One thing I did at the start, sorry. Quick segue. At the start of my career when I didn't feel as confident as I do now, like say I got a customer testimonial or a colleague that said something nice to me, I'd just send it to my boss and be like, Hey, I thought I'd said you this. Really proud of it. Like, that's it.

You don't have to say it out loud.

[00:22:37] Hannah: yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, you know, the quick wins and, and sharing it. Hundred percent.networking.

[00:22:45] Isobelle: Say it louder. Your network expires. You could meet someone brilliant today, they could promise you the world tomorrow. And then they might leave the company. I know they might leave Kellogg's for the week after. And so you have to network continuously. You can't see it as one-off transactions. It's a, it's a lifestyle.

It's a, it's a way of working.and people get that wrong. So I think, say it louder. Every job I've had recently has come through. A reputation that I built with another person, it makes life so much easier. If I was to lose my job today, I would have a plethora of people that I could ask for help for tomorrow.

And because of that, I sleep better too at night. So people don't see the, the net that networking can bring them and they really, I'm really,

[00:23:24] Hannah: How do you practice networking? How do you, does, is it something that you even think about or is it just, 'cause I would assume that you're somebody who was just a natural networker and connector.

[00:23:35] Isobelle: But I think there's, people see networking as like going to networking events. So you have to like, you have to plan to do that. And I try and do that lesson. Now, to be honest, I really don't have the time, but my version of networking is connecting. So, so, someone might ask me for help with something that I've had no experience in whatsoever, and I could probably plug it, but why would I do that?

And instead I'll connect them with someone else. And then those two people kind of owe me one. And then that permeates. And so my thing is I see myself as, as a super connector. That's what I talk about, and I'm always onto that. So if you came to me tomorrow and asked for a favor of, I dunno, needing someone to help you with something AI related, I would immediately think, oh, I know a guy, let me introduce you there.

Whereas most people. Would not open themselves up to that conversation in the per first place and also see it as a chore or a burden to do an introduction that doesn't have a return on investment for them. I just always put positivity out there, put connectivity out there in the hope that one day it will yield.

And it's interesting to see how these little sort of seeds you plan do grow over time even though you can't see the benefit to it.

[00:24:37] Hannah: Hmm.

[00:24:38] Isobelle: It's also just good global citizenship, I think, to, to just help where you can because we can't be all the change we want to see, and I'm sure people are sat at home today feeling helpless about what's going on in the world around us.

But what you can do is impact your local community and that local community. Be as simple as your friends or the postcode that you live in.

[00:24:55] Hannah: Yeah, I love how you frame that a lot more about, it's a lot more about giving than taking. and that's the mindset. And I think this is also a part of what can put a lot of introverts at ease because networking often sounds like, oh, there's a spotlight on you and you need to perform some sort of ritual too, like meet people.

And it's like, you know, how can I help? How can I connect people? How can I give? I love that reframe.

[00:25:20] Isobelle: networking is give, give, give, give, give, give, give, give, give, take. So like, just think about it like that and think of yourself as someone that can just connect the dots. That's literally it.

[00:25:28] Hannah: Oh, and we're so good at connecting the dots, so I love that for us.

[00:25:34] Isobelle: Exactly. It's a natural, it's like it's a hard skill and if you're good at it, like lean into it, leverage it.

[00:25:38] Hannah: Mm-hmm. Love that. asking for promotion out loud.

[00:25:43] Isobelle: say it less, and that's because I'm taking that in verbatim. Ask for promotion out loud if your actions don't match it. Say it less, say it less because I think you need to be showing up. It's, it's like the sort of added, just dress for the job you want, not the job you have. Show up for that promotion before you ask for that promotion.

I think there's a lot of people now that will say, well, I've been here for three years and you know, Dave got promoted last week, so I deserve one. Say that less because your results aren't speaking for themselves. Your mindset, your approach isn't. I would not approach a conversation with a boss in a one-to-one unless I felt I was at the top of my game.

So that's.

[00:26:22] Hannah: I love that because so much advice out there currently steers towards ask for it more, say it louder, ask for the promotion, you know? Yeah. But

[00:26:32] Isobelle: I'm just, I'm just about to release a course actually, and I think it's one thing that I've understood through my career. You have to constantly posture for promotion. So it's not similar to networking. It's always on. It doesn't, it's trans, it's not a transactional end. I'm always posturing for a promotion, so.

My job now is fine, but I know what the next one is and I'm always putting myself in those situations to, to enhance that. And similarly, you know, a couple of years ago I didn't care about my next promotion 'cause I was going off on maternity leave, so I paused it then. But I think, yeah, I think it's about, it's about taking, not waiting, but in order to take, you have to put in that extra legwork to get there.

[00:27:09] Hannah: Yeah. But will you talk to your boss about what you envision your next step will be, or what you

[00:27:15] Isobelle: Not until the time is right, not until the time is right. I think a boss can feel quite quickly threatened by, I've done it before when I was younger, showing up and being like, I'm gonna be on the board in the next couple of years. And then before you know what the CEO has. And he kind of likes your attitude.

He kind of like. You know, raring to go. And then that boss then feels threatened because you CEOs saying, Izzy's gonna be on the board next. And, and that literally happened to me maybe five years ago. And when I left my, one of, I had a couple of bosses at the time when I left, one of the bosses said to my friend in m and s, oh, she left because, she was power hungry and she just wanted the next promotion on time, which was not the reason that I left whatsoever.

That was his internal narrative about me.

[00:27:54] Hannah: yeah,

[00:27:55] Isobelle: It's interesting timing. Prove yourself. Demonstrate how you can be an ally for your manager and help your manager and not steal the job from underneath them. Unless they're me. Unless they're me, in which case I advocate for that fully.

[00:28:11] Hannah: solo work over collaboration.

[00:28:16] Isobelle: Say it less. I, I'd love to think, we all think we can work in these silos, but even if he was an introverted freelancer, in order to win work, you have to work collaboratively and I. As introverts and as people who are naturally more quieter, the idea and concept of sales and putting yourself out there is probably quite sickening, but your success depends on it.

And so solo work is nice when you've got deep work to do. Maybe you've got a lot of admin to get through and it, you just need no distraction. But in my mind, you should be collaborating as as much as possible because that's where the opportunities and the ideas and the learnings and the lessons come come from.

So yeah, say less.

[00:28:59] Hannah: Love it. zoom fatigue.

[00:29:01] Isobelle: Zoom tea.get rid of it. End it. Say it, it say it louder. Zoom fatigue. My friend taught me about concept that we should spend 30% of time on meetings, 30% of time face-to-face, and 30% of time doing sort of deep, meaningful work. But we shouldn't be spending a hundred percent of time at our laptops doing Zoom meetings.

And I could not agree more. I dunno how you get a handle on it, but yeah, zoom fatigue is real, but similarly. If I drive an hour and a half hour for a one hour meeting, I do begrudge that. So it has its place,

[00:29:40] Hannah: No, and a hundred percent what I often find is happening is that you drive to an office only to be in Zoom meetings all day

[00:29:48] Isobelle: no one's in,

[00:29:49] Hannah: and no. Yeah. And then you're just on, on Zoom in a different location and you don't really have the time for face-to-face. So I love that like 30% and then spend the rest of time either working.

Actually working, doing some of the work and, and meeting people. I love that.

[00:30:05] Isobelle: The only other thing about Zoom fatigue I would say is I think you get surroundings fatigue faster than you get zoom fatigue. So say you are working from home because like you've just explained that scenario, what's the point of going in? It's easier to be in lunch in the toilet. Can you go to a coffee shop instead and work from a different space?

Because then at least you've got a change of environment, even if you are still on Zoom.

[00:30:25] Hannah: Mm-hmm. I've got two more. One is working from band.

[00:30:30] Isobelle: say less so if you're poorly, if you're having a really bad mental health day, try and just be off work. Like, I, I really, I really have a ve day like, don't even feel any way about that. You know, your boss, like your boss's boss, like your boss's boss's boss does that. So like, try and separate the bed from anything pertaining to work because I think it's unhealthy to bring that into your space.

There's definitely times where I've been up late at night. Midnight doing work in bed For myself, that's quite different, but you best believe my employer is not coming into my bedroom. Let's keep those things safe. We're not students anymore. It might feel like a luxury, but it's affecting everything from your mental health, the the, your ability to do your work, your physical health, your posture, how you are sitting.

So. It's nice and worth it, but I can guarantee that two hour block or three hour block where you spend sitting in bed rotting doing it, will take you one hour. Sat downstairs, switch your laptop off, go upstairs two hours, Gil more girls like you. Give yourself the boundaries and the space between the two.

But like I say, if you're, ill understand it, but I think if you can take that day off.

[00:31:39] Hannah: It segues beautifully into the last one, which is unplugging after hours.

[00:31:44] Isobelle: Say it louder. Say it so loud. Say it so loud. You could, your boss was like, chill out. Like I just think, again, I keep talking about, keep coming back to boundaries and perspective and I will say I was the worst for like being a hustle bro and doing all of the hours and being proud to be a busy fall to an extent for years and.

I don't wanna make it all about children. 'cause a lot of people will choose not to have children and that's absolutely fair enough. But when, when you have children or you find this other meaning in your life, whether that, you know, it could be just renovating this house at the moment, it's really consuming, but I'm enjoying it.

I think you realize that you have to switch off from work because it's literally just a means to an end, no matter how meaningful the work is that you're doing your work. You have to And yeah, say it louder. Say it as loud as you can.

[00:32:30] Hannah: I saw this beautiful piece of content that you once put out about romanticizing your weekends and really using your weekends. Talk to me about that because I love that and I think that just for context, I think that what, what often happens to me is like I will feel so depleted on a Friday night and then to on a weekend.

I will literally just, you know, do the bare minimum and then like kind of get through the weekend, but then I don't feel replenished afterwards and I, it just drains the.

[00:33:00] Isobelle: You have to make me a promise now. Okay. The next four Friday nights, you have your biggest plan, even if you feel tired, even if you feel jaded, and you don't also have to be a plan with anyone else. That big plan could be like a bath with a film and a glass of wine, like whatever that plan is that feels big to you, but like have a little moment of luxury on your Friday night.

Every single time I've ever had a Friday night planned and a very quiet weekend, and thereafter, I have felt restored and replenished because I've continued. You know, the, the week, if you will, right until the end of it. The weekdays, I've, I've continued it till midnight at Friday. I've really maximized that time.

I've managed to use a day where I actually had to work half the day, but I've also had leisure half the day. How amazing. And then that Saturday and Sunday would, it felt so much longer and it felt so much more relaxed. I didn't feel obliged to do anything. I, I, this is regularly what I do now. I see a friend on a Friday night.

Saturday and Sunday. I do very little and I feel great about that 'cause my weekend feels super long. Whereas what you're saying to me is your work week actually kind of lasts till Friday night when you go to bed and you've only got 48 hours. Saturday and Sunday. Most of us spend Sunday afternoon thinking about work.

So you've only

[00:34:12] Hannah: I, I was just gonna say, and it starts Sunday night. Sunday evening. Yeah.

[00:34:16] Isobelle: You've got a day and a half, you're giving yourself a day and a half off, whereas my sort, my zestful life sees it as well. I've got two and a half days if I treat my Fridays properly and I know I'm tired, but I'll feel such a nice line between work and play if I actually spend my Friday night after work doing something

[00:34:34] Hannah: Yeah. Well, I'm gonna make you that promise. I'm gonna try. I love that. I love that.I wanna talk to you about mom life and, one of my observations when I first started following you was that you're this badass, ambitious person and, and very career driven, and you're also a mom. And we don't often see that together and they feel like, I'm not a mom, but so they feel like to me they.

Almost contradict each other, but it's also so soothing for me because it gives me so much peace and so much energy to see somebody like you, like do both and be both. I. Were you ever afraid prior to having kids like of that, those two lives colliding and you becoming someone else and suddenly not being this ambitious person, person anymore and not wanting to pursue your career?

How did you feel about it before having kids and how do you feel about it today?

[00:35:30] Isobelle: So before having children, I'll just be very vulnerable and honest. I was like. I think I'll lose my full identity if I have children. And I really, really like who I am at work. I, I said it's very consistent with who I am at home, but I feel like if I'm not charged through my work, if I not, if I'm not, if I don't itch my brain at work, then I'm not a good person at home.

Like I, I. Stimulated. And so I was really concerned that I would become like a frumpy miserable mom and that would be my entire identity. And I'll be honest, there was times postpartum for the first sort of three to six months where you're not, you do not have the brain capacity to think about work where I did feel like that.

But I think what I've realized is these are moments in time and it's transient. So you cannot feel a certain way about motherhood and you cannot feel a certain way about your career. Consistently forever. These things happens in cycle. In cycle, sorry. And so I'm fully anticipating that I'm pregnant again.

Now. I'll go off I, I'll give birth in September. I'm fully anticipating from September to sort of March, April time, I'll be saying to my sisters and my husband, I just don't feel like myself. I don't feel like myself. I don't feel I have purpose. Like who am I? I'm not this badass anymore. I'm just a mom.

But to my daughters, when I look at them, I think. I am just their mom, but I am everything that they need. And there's this indescribable love that I have for my daughter and for my children that has given me a renewed sense of self, but also a renewed purpose when it comes to my professional life, because now it's like.

Before I was just feeding myself and keeping the lights on. Now I've, I've got a family to raise and it is even more ruthless with my, my corporate life because I think I'm not doing anything for the fun of it anymore. I'm not doing anything to, to be present for presenteeism, to be performative. I'm only doing things that serve me and my family, and so it's made me this more ruthless operator.

but I think where I differ from most a lot of women is that I don't feel guilty when I'm at work and not with my children. 'cause I know how my children are looked after and, and, and I know my daughter's having a great time and I think it is a really difficult one to navigate if you feel a bite. I only work a three day week for the overlap.

So if I was working five days, I would probably feel harbor a lot more guilt than I, than I do. But I work three days and I enjoy those three days, and I feel like myself and I feel like a version of my old self with a blend of the new, and then the four of the days of the week I'm with my child. So I think it's more around crafting a new version of your career and working week that allows you to have the balance between I.

Your children and your corporate life, but also recognizing, Hannah, you the type of woman that wants to work more than being a mother. And that's a still being a mom, but like, do you like to be at work five days a week? That's absolutely love that. That would be me in a few years. I know it, but what's the little, personally my preference is three days of proper work, obligatory work.

Four days of I flex as and when I need to. So I think we should de-stigmatize that. Some mothers prefer to work and are better moms because of it, and other mothers prefer to be full-time stay at home moms and are great moms because of it. Like the scale,

[00:38:36] Hannah: A hundred per, a hundred percent.

[00:38:38] Isobelle: sorry.

[00:38:40] Hannah: No. Yes, you did. Did, did you ever feel like people look at you differently at work when you first say that? I. You're gonna have, you know you're pregnant and you're gonna have a child,

[00:38:54] Isobelle: Yeah,

[00:38:55] Hannah: because I feel like that is something that. Especially when you're career driven, that's something you dread because they can easily feel.

I always think to myself, I have to get as far ahead as possible prior to having kids just so that they know that I'm committed. They know that I want it, they know that I'm good. They, I've, I will have proven myself to a point I can easily get back into it. And I don't have to do so much proving afterwards, but to your point, I mean, you know, that whole workplace changes, people change positions and so on.

So your whole network changes. So it's very difficult. And I think it's also a little bit of a toxic thought just because, you know, it's, it's, there is a time in our lives where we can have kids and it often correlates with early careers more so than being in those advanced positions. So how do you feel about that?

[00:39:46] Isobelle: if when we have to, we are women and, and if we want, if we want children, we have to have them. And it's, I, I think it's as simple as that. But to the first part of the question, the minute you start showing a bump at work, you feel as though you're treated differently. You are, you are, because it's a visible. Notification to anyone at any given time that she's going off soon. I'll get left out of meetings because I'm going off soon, but in actual fact, I've, I've got a lot to give and I can contribute to those meetings a lot still. So it's frustrating that something precedes you in such a way. People have preconceptions about your workload and when your workload starts and ends without ever having asked you.

So I, I find that difficult to navigate. I, I have shared dread from both times of telling my employers I was pregnant. It both times it didn't have been so stressful in my mind, but that is because of society and the media and what everything you read about how women are penalized and prejudiced because they're pregnant.

So tho those are valid fears and I would never wanna validate that. But you, you must remember that. Your boss came from a woman and your children, and so life continues and two things I would say I did exactly what, what you've just described of getting as far ahead in my career as I can before I go off because the propensity for promotion thereafter is much harder.

I wanted to earn a significant amount of money because I wanted to save for my maternity leave because I wanted to work at places where I had good maternity policies so people get pregnant on a whim. I love that. For them, that was never going to be me. I, I had planned what my finances, my lifestyle. The, the holidays that I wanted to go on before I had children, I really gave it a lot of thought so that when it came to have my first daughter at 31, I did not feel any way, any sort of fomo, whether that comes to career, as friends, money and so on.

So I think there's definitely scope for conversation in my. Opinion about planning motherhood a little more. And I know it can't always go to plan. There's so many things involved, but like having a bit of a contingency. and the last thing I'll say, which is slightly negative, but I mean it with absolutely a pure heart, is that I was going off, for my first lot of maternity leave and I was so consumed by.

What the business might look like when I came back and who might be there and who might not, and what my role might look like. It really ate me up for a long time. Before I gave birth. I gave birth. I didn't really care. I just thought, whatever happens, happens, you just, you just don't care. And then it came to coming back around to that job and I didn't wanna go back.

So much had changed. So many people had left. So many new appointments had been made. I felt completely. Sort of alienated and pushed out. And this was a job I loved. I was, you know, a star performer.I got on with everyone on the most part. And so you cannot control that. Things will move along when you are off.

A year out of a business is a hell of a long time. And to consume yourself with it and to try and control it is impossible because you can't, you can't do so. So it's almost like. This time, hopefully things go better for me post, you know, post maternity leave. But this time I'm thinking I've done what I can.

I've really proved myself in this job in a really short space of time. I'm gonna, I've got peace of mind about going off. I know what's at the end of a pregnancy now. It's a beautiful baby girl who will love me more than anything. I'm gonna live with that and. If I come back to work and things have changed and it's not what I expected or it's better than expected or worse than expected, it is just what it is.

I can't do anything. I control it. And maybe that's 'cause I'm, I'm speaking from a privileged perspective. A lot of people have to. I have to know what their finances are gonna look like when they return from work and so on. But my last maternity taught me everything I needed to know about having contingencies and having a plan B and having other income streams and building my network.

And I feel like I built enough security around myself to feel liberated from the, the concern and the worry of my return

[00:43:35] Hannah: Mm mm I I think we're so very much alike when it comes to that, and I, I'm like, I hate that you don't have control over these things. I hate it. And I've thought so much about having control or the feeling of what gives us a feeling of control recently that something that you mentioned was beautiful in that.

You have that inner strength now, that inner confidence of like, I've done it before, I know that I can trust in my ability to prove myself over and over again. There is not, we don't ever reach a point in our careers or in our lives where we're just fine and where we're just safe forever. because things around us change and there is no, there is no such control that we have.

So it has to come from within us.

[00:44:20] Isobelle: Say you put off having children, you could still lose your job tomorrow. So like there's no, there's an as security when you are. Boss in your career, and you're not yet of childbearing age to your employer, but you can still get made redundant the next day. So there's actually, like you say, there's no such thing as job security.

I, I, I say that not to scare people, but just nothing is promised. Tomorrow is a promise. So

[00:44:46] Hannah: it gives you a little peace of mind. It did help. That thought did help me weirdly. It's like, you know, there's no such thing as control. There is an illusion of control that you have for the most part, but other than that, you have to trust yourself to like make it again or find, you know, even if you can't come back to your exact role, that you'll always find something that will. Just because I think that drive and that ambition and that part of your personality doesn't really go away. I, I don't hope so. I mean, it doesn't look like for you.

[00:45:18] Isobelle: No, it, it doesn't. And you know, if it did, if it had, if it had, for me, that would be because I was enjoying being all consumed by motherhood. So it would never be a loss anyway. It'd just be my priority shifting. It was never gonna, for me, like, I'll be really honest, I'm never gonna be a full-time yummy mummy, stay at home because I just, it's just not.

My natural disposition. There was years where I thought I wasn't maternal. It wasn't until I got a dog that I thought that I had that maternal instinct. So it was never going to be me. But had it been, that would've been okay too. I would've made it work. And similarly, had I decided that I wanted to go back to full-time and be the breadwinner, then I would've done that as well.

And, and I, it's society that that takes how we think we should feel about being a mom when in actual fact. It's just what you make of it. We all have such different experiences. It depends entirely on the village that you have around you or don't. I don't have much help from my family and so I have to work like it just, it's just how it goes.

[00:46:14] Hannah: yeah, yeah. Well, I love that and thank you so much for talking to me about that.

[00:46:18] Isobelle: Oh, I could go all day. That was so good. Thank you.

[00:46:24] Hannah: Well, you said something at the beginning that I just wanna circle back to, as we wrap up, is that you said, and I love that, that you feel successful in your career. And I think a hundred percent we don't say that often enough. Women as introverts. We don't, I never said that, although I did feel it at times.

[00:46:43] Isobelle: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:46:43] Hannah: at least I've got that. what does success look like for you right now, and what are you pursuing now? What's next for you? How does that, what are you striving for next?

[00:46:55] Isobelle: You made a really good point about success and that I think is a lot of people don't actually know how to quantify what success means to them. And so we often feel unsuccessful when in actual fact we've just not figured out our measures. And that is something that I've thought about long and hard. my success right now is.

I've got a beautiful, beautiful little girl and family, and I've got another little girl on the way. I've just renovated a house, which is sort of part of a bigger plan for financial freedom and, and living mortgage free. So like, my success is emotional and, and financial. And, I used to think success was only when I got to CEO level of somebody's company on my own.

But I've, I've brought that back so quickly and it's so much simpler than that. And for me, my measures of. How happy and content I am, or how much free time do I have? What's the most amount of money I can earn for the least amount of work, which unlocks the most amount of free time to spend how I see fit.

And if I decide that that week that's spending a week with my daughter or the week after it's spending a week going to London and having a, hosting an event for people, then let that be. So, but it's the freedom to choose how I spend my time. That is my measure of success, and I feel. As though I'm getting there slowly but surely.

so as I say, I work three days a week currently for the overlap. You asked me what was next. I, I'm commercial lead there. I'll go back sort of may time after maternity leave. This is the plan. It doesn't go to plan, whatever. And the other four days, like I say, I look after my daughter, but I do do a lot of career content, content creation.

I have a sort of bigger plan behind that, around productizing what it is that I do so I can help more people, but also make more of a living off it, a bigger secret sort of four to five year plan where I don't live in the UK full time. The stuff I've done with the house allows me to keep the house here without worrying about it financially.

I can take my children around the world, educate them remotely at home, what's do doing a few hours of work every morning.so I, again, I'm leaning even further into that freedom. The freedom to travel, the freedom to spend more time how I want. So what I'm trying to do, correct. Right now is curate a life that allows me to do that in the future, but allows me to still enjoy my time now.

'cause I think I've been guilty of before being like, in three years I'll do this and until then I won't have any fun. I will really graft, I will really hustle. And I have no regrets in that regard. It's got me to where I am today, but I'm, I'm much more focused on my success in the moment and my success in the future, rather than just pushing all the, I'll be happy when, when I do this.

I'm trying to live more in the moment.

[00:49:36] Hannah: I love that. And you have such a clear vision for yourself, and I, I feel like this is often something that is underestimated in, within our careers. It's, it's, we're often being told like, you know, you know, don't make, too rigorous of a plan because things are anyway going to, you know, work out differently.

But I think it's about having that. Direction in mind. it doesn't have to be like a destination or it has to be this or else I'm not going to be successful, but it has to be like this vision of like, where do I see myself? Who do I want to be with? What do I want to do for work? What, what does that look like?

How, what is my day like, how do I feel? Like that sort of thing. It feels like you have down for you.

[00:50:13] Isobelle: Yeah, a hundred percent. I dunno about you, but I think rich culture in in particular, it, it makes you feel as though if you was to say that you were really ambitious and you had big dreams five years

[00:50:24] Hannah: Oh yeah. Delusional.

[00:50:26] Isobelle: You are a delusional, silly little girl. And two, you must be so discontented with your current life.

No two things can be true. I am so lucky. I say it to myself every single day and every single night. What a privileged, beautiful life that I live. But that doesn't mean I can't want more for myself. And to your point about, I know we need to wrap, but to your point about sort of making that plan, so I'll make this plan where I live in Thailand or Bali or Sri Lanka, eight months of the year in four months.

In the uk. If I only then am able to make it work where I do one month a year in Sri Lanka and Bali, I'd still be very happy with

[00:50:56] Hannah: Mm.

[00:50:57] Isobelle: And it's stupid quote, maybe, but shoot for the moon and you'll land amongst the stars. If you don't have a plan, you're gonna get nowhere near it. And that's, again, back to people's not understanding their own metrics for success because they don't know what they want.

I know what I want. I'll get something like it, and I'm on a, and I'm on a.

[00:51:14] Hannah: Oh, I'm a hundred percent sure you'll get something like that. I'm there for the ride.Isobelle, I could go on and on for hours. I think this is the perks of having an extrovert. I'm, I'm just loving your energy and, yeah, really enjoyed this conversation. Thank you so much for making the time so early in the morning. And, yeah, tell everyone where they can find you, connect with you, follow your work. Be along for the ride. I.

[00:51:39] Isobelle: So it's corporate agony on Instagram and TikTok. I do post quite a lot of content on LinkedIn, Isabelle Panton, but it's different to my corporate agony and stuff. So that's more around personal branding leadership, but yeah, across those three platforms, and soon to watch my own podcast. So you're gonna have to come on that.

[00:51:56] Hannah: I love that. Thank you so much for coming on and, yeah, see you soon.