Hi, I'm Nina Endrst.

I'm Anna Toonk. Welcome to how to be human, a podcast that explores the common and often confusing themes of humaneness

On this episode, Anna and I discuss resentment.

Take a seat clear mind and let's chat

Hello, darling.

Hello, darling. Do you think we could do a whole episode in a British accent? I don't think we can. You could

because like, Drew, I lived there.

Yes. No. And I speak in accents all the time. Whether or not that's a cool thing to do or appropriate. I

do too. I mean, I don't do like offensive ones. I'm not I'm not to offend white people. Yeah, I'm not here to mock blink. Wasn't Brett's gonna do? Yeah, mana.

I also just like, enjoy it, you know, like it? I don't know. I'm like, Oh, can I put full sparkle on it? You know? Yes, it does. And there's, you know, nothing more fun than doing a bad British accent.

I know. I can't I couldn't do that. I wouldn't attempt the Aussie though, because that's just very complex. I think

it's difficult. I think very few Americans can get it right. But I have to say my friend are gone can do the best Australian accent and has an amazing story about an Ozzy and I think every time I see him I make him Dalit. And then like someone had tweeted the other day a picture of in Williamsburg. It was like, it was like, Norbu or something. And so it was like, this is just an Australian trying to say Nobu. Oh my God deserves your record and was like, I will one day I will quit making this job today is not it?

No, but when narrower, narrower, narrow aids. Yeah. But why? Like, what nor? Like, that's not how they spell it.

I also what's hilarious is I have a lot of like Australian friends. I don't know why I didn't. I didn't go out seeking them. But a lot.

Go to the Australian friends dating.

Wasn't like,

are you Australian? Girl? Australians.

Yeah. And I mean, so I went to Australia and to see my friend Joe. And you know, there's all these like very burly men who then will speak in almost all abbreviation but like, very happy, you know? And you're like, I can't believe this burly like rugby player is being my your racket and they all blow and all this stuff. And you're like, you sound like a teenage girl like it's it's like, their normal is like our teenage girl. I'm like, Oh, that's so interesting. You know, with abbreviating everything and making it cute like shift cookie. I'm like, I love this.

I literally saw a meme today about like, imagine sleeping with somebody and you wake up in the morning and they sit asked you if you want to get breakfast? them like, no, no, thanks.

I'm like, me.

Everybody already knows.

Yeah. Same. So we're talking about resentment. And okay, so Oxford languages gives us bitter indignation and having been treated unfairly. And I don't know about you, but that doesn't seem to really. It's not giving me resentment, that definition. And then our friends at Wikipedia, say resentment is a complex, multi layered emotion that has been described as a mixture of disappointment, disgust, anger and fear. That sums it up. Yep, I'm like, there we go.

Especially other guest

seat that's, I can't wait to discuss because I wouldn't have put disgust in there. But

ah, get my he got me with disgust.

Other psychologists consider it a mood, which interesting, or as a secondary emotion, including cognitive elements that can be elicited in the face of insult or injury. Inherent in resentment is a perception of unfairness from trivial to very serious, and a generalized defense against unfair situations, relationships or unfavorable circumstances. And everywhere I went looking for definitions. You'll find one that like seemed like it did. There was this big thing about there was an emphasis on unfairness or you know, perceiving you've been treated unfairly or it was unjust or things like that? That, um, I don't know about you, but like when I'm feel resentful? I don't know that I am mainly I do feel like it's unfair, but that's not what I'm calling it in my head.

No, it's not what I'm calling it. But I think that when I actually sit with it, that's a big part of it feeling like I've been wronged. Yeah, or I deserve better or more.

Yeah. And I guess like, if you feel like you've been wronged, like, I guess, I know, that sounds silly. But it's like, when I think of the feeling of being wronged or whatever, I don't always think of fairness. It's like, I'm more just focused on like, like, I'm not happy, or that didn't feel good or whatever, you know, like, I'm not always like it not every time that, you know, like, we feel wronged. Like, was it unjust, you know, like,

bear you guys?

Oh, I just hadn't thought about in those terms. But tell us about disgust. How does disgust come into resentment for you? Oh,

disgust. So I was just looking at a picture of someone who I will not name obviously, at the other day yesterday, actually. And my initial reaction, because I have so much resentment toward this person was literally disgust. And I named him I was like, I feel this, I feel disgusted. When I like, it's a bit. It's a feeling in my body. I'm like, if I think I like make that sound. And I don't want to feel like that. I really, really don't. And by the way, this is not somebody that like, I could just easily like, move on from. And so it's really difficult because there are layers, you know, to allowing resentment to leave us right. I think it's important that we feel it and acknowledge it. There's the forgiveness aspect, there's the putting yourself in somebody else's shoes aspect, there's all these different kind of pathways out of it. But my initial reaction, typically is disgust. So it's so funny that you were like, no, not so much. And I was like that one that's mine. And I think it's because it's, for me personally, it's, I think it's a defense mechanism, because I don't really want to be as sad about it as I am. And so if I can be disgusted, then I can be a little bit unaffected, even though I am very affected. It's kind of anger for me.

Well, it's, it's interesting, because a lot of people compare resentment to anger. You know, and a lot of people say, anger or resentment is anger turned inward. And I don't know if I agree with that, you know, like, I do, like the quote that's attributed to Carrie Fisher that like resilience, like, is like drinking poison and hoping it kills someone else, you know, literally just

gonna say, I think it has the same effect on your body as Yeah.

But I think it's interesting to think of using it as a protective mechanism, you know, because, no, no, I mean, of course, it's not I mean, none of this shit is, you know, but I think that that's an interesting, because, because something I kept thinking about, in terms of resentment was I don't know about you, but like, I find often like, in order to alleviate our resentment, there generally tends to need to be some sort of communication. And yet, we often don't want to communicate with whoever we resent. And so it, it makes sense to me that there's this, like, there's these elements of things we do to sort of, like, Heap that barrier, you know, like, if you're resentful towards somebody like the, the person who's on image of it's like, it's maybe not in your best interest are healthy to pick them up and be like, hey, I want to hash some shit out, you know, that, like, it makes sense to me, your brain would be like, how about we're just grossed out by it, and don't want to engage? You know,

like, especially if they're not listening? Yeah, totally. And I think that's so much of where, you know, listen, sometimes we're not being heard. Sometimes we feel like we're not being heard with it's like, who knows which is true at whatever point but I think that resent my my thing with resentment is I'm fine with it. As long as it doesn't build up. Like I kind of have to check myself on it. How much I like how Phil how full the container gets? So I'm constantly like checking it right? I'll be in the shower, like, who are we? Who are we releasing today? And like, what do we have to say, because I don't want it to build up in me because it feels toxic. It really, really does. And so, to your point, and I love that quote, too, about swallowing the poison, it's like, I don't want anybody to be, I don't want to hate anybody. Like, I really don't, I don't want to hate anyone except for Donald Trump. And I don't want to that to live in my physical being, I don't want it to live my emotional being. So I think taking the steps to talk it out. I've been talking about this a lot in sessions where I talk to myself a lot. And I, I encourage clients to do the same. Like, if you can't talk to the person, or you don't think it will go well. Speak out loud to yourself, or name the thing in passing, when it's a thought passing through your feeling passing through, so it doesn't kind of get caught. But how much of you because one of the things, you know, one of the ways we release resentment is obviously talking to like a professional, how much has your therapist helped you? Versus other things work through your resentment with certain people in your life?

Oh, my God, a million kajillion percent, a million good trillion. Because I'm really prone to resentment, I have to say on top of it, cuz, and what sucks about it is generally, I would say, rarely is it like someone sucks. You know, like, rarely is it just like, oh, this, this person has zero regard for me, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, it's funny, I read something the other day, where someone said like, it was someone on Instagram, actually, I'm like, could I find her quickly? Probably not, don't worry about it. And she said to me about, like, something to keep in mind, you know, is like, the more people you're talking to, the higher the chances are, you have a weird encounter. She does a lot of work around, like, you know, dating and things like that. So she was like, I don't know about anyone else. But like, I've had a couple interactions lately have been weird, you know, and it's like, everyone is a little awkward right now. And just something to keep in mind is like, it's not you, you know, and like you in sort of talking about that. And I think for me, it's like, I can get kind of bogged down and I can be like, what is it about me that's making people think like, they can always ask me for favors, or they can always ask me to do something like, it becomes an issue for me in my building. And I have to stay on top of it. Because I'm a pretty capable, reliable person. Therefore, everybody will ask me for favors, you know. And it's, I think, where I struggle is when things are like, not a big deal. But if I'm being honest, they annoy me, you know, and it's hard for me to give myself permission to just be like, you don't have to do it. You don't have to be the building helper. And that's okay. And like, that doesn't have to mean anything about you, or whatever. So therapy is crazy helpful for me, because it the idea of like being in the shower, like I definitely like talk to myself, and I work through a lot of stuff, I would say I do a lot of my own processing. And men come to therapy and are sort of like, you know, yeah, I'm like, this thing is, like I've gotten, I would say, I almost get like, 75% there, and then she fills in the other 25% that I'm like, Why can't like, why am I still annoyed about this? Or like, why can't I drop this because I wish it was I think you just have more discipline than I do in a way because it's like, you're like I say it and therefore it is so like, that's not my nature, you know, I'm like, I see a difference. So I'm like, kind of until, you know, the idea that I could be in a child like I shall no longer resent this process. I would love for it to work that way. And but I think that talking to myself is like the beginning process of that of being like, you know, I think of resentment a lot like boundaries, you know, that when you're angry that someone's crossed a boundary, you have to, like, that's what tipped you off and you go, Oh, I need a boundary there. I need to you know, like, another thing people are saying a lot is like what you complain about is like, where you need boundaries, you know, and I think that that's is resentment is similar. It's like whatever you're resenting or where you're having resentment is often somewhere like you need to do something. And I think for me, because it can be almost like cyclical, like I'll get like have a bunch of kind of resentment at once. Like, it can feel overwhelming sometimes to figure out like, what is the thing I need to change? Or what is the thing I need to do? Or like, what is the part I'm playing in the Wikipedia definition? I scroll down and there's a section on coping. And psychologists coping. Oh, and like cooking with resentment, but psychologists, right, yeah, I mean, why not? I'm sure there's many people who do cook with the psychologist James J. Messina recommends five steps to facing and resolving resentful feelings, one, identify the source of the resentful feelings. And what it is the person did to evoke these feelings, to develop a new way of looking at past present, present and future life, okay, including how resentment has affected life and how letting go of resentment can improve the future. Three, write a letter to the source of the resentment listening offenses and again, explaining the circumstances then forgive and let go of the offenses but do not send the letter for visualizing for

other people. I send it

for visualize a future without the negative impact of resentment and five, if resentful feelings still linger return to step one and begin again. But I liked that there is a little bit of this element of like, I think something that feels validating and exploring resentment is like, there's not a lot you can do about it. I think sometimes what can be tricky is it's like, something happens or someone does something or relationships, maybe it's been building or whatever. And then you're like, oh, man, I resent this person. You know, and then I think that sometimes what's the tricky part for me is like, not maybe shutting down or getting avoidant, or gossiping, but going like, what am I actually resentful about? And, and really figuring out what's the like, what's the thing? You know, because I think it can almost become like perfume. You know, it's like, it becomes this like Cloud and you can't quite tell like, you know, it's like, is it the flowers? Is it the air? Is it the like, oh, no, it's you. It's like what you're wearing? Like, I think it can just become a little confused, like, cloudy or something. I'm not sure.

I know what you're saying. I also think to the perfume, analogy, metaphor, metaphor analogy. Which one? Is it? A metaphor? Let's call it a metaphor. I think it's, I think it's intoxicating, too. I think we get hooked on it. And yeah, and we like similar to victimhood get wrapped up in our stories and our like, washing our hair with like vigor. And we're like the fuck that fits in with the bucket Who the fuck she thinks she is. And one of the things that I thought was interesting. In an article, I read that, what is this arm, I'll get the site, but it was speaking about how physically it actually is known to increase blood pressure, heart rate and nervous system activity. So there is like an actual physical reaction that you're having when and you can feel it when you're angry. But can you would you really think would a lot of us think that that has a physical effect on us? I mean, people know that stress does, but I don't I still don't think a lot of people believe that to be true. Because look how we live. So yeah, there, there's a physical thing happening to you when you are feeling resentment. And so for me, so much of the discipline that I choose is, as you guys know, working it through my body, like I am naming emotions, before I go into it, or when I'm working some when I'm exercising and something comes up, I will catch it. If I can mid air kind of and be like that needs to go that needs to go. So I'm physically pushing stuff out. And getting stronger in the process. But it feels like such a cleansing that I just, I'm much more clear after. And so I also highly recommend that. But one of the other things that I think is interesting about it, it's like the perspective shift. So how can we honor ourselves and know that what we're feeling is valid, that maybe that person absolutely did hurt our feelings and do something that we didn't think was fair or right or just and then how can we also not assume the worst of them and maybe just do a quick like, shoe change and be like, I wonder Best case scenario, like maybe their what they were going through or what they were thinking when they did or said this thing, how important do you think that is? or helpful?

I think it is important. I think that I don't know about you, but I have, I've noticed a trend lately, whenever people express something, people almost immediately countered with like, advising to empathize or or think of the other person. And I don't know that that is helpful. Like the split second something has occurred, you know, and I think that now people are understanding that, like, you know, we've had this pattern of sort of constantly feeding stories that may or may not be true. And now it's like, oh, no, like, let's, let's give people the benefit of the doubt, let's give the other person the benefit of the doubt that they weren't meaning to be a goblin, which is probably true. But I think if you're the person, it's like, it kind of doesn't matter whether they did it deliberately, or they did it, you know, thoughtlessly, the end result is the same that you feel something has happened, you know, but what a lot of people said, obviously, when you, you Google and start reading about resentment, what comes up everywhere. And what you're touching on is, is relationships, that it's like, resentment is a relational thing we experience meaning that it's generally something we only experience in relationship to other people that we don't really resent ourselves, which is interesting. But the thing you're touching on that tons of people said is what you counter resentment with is empathy and health dot Cleveland clinic.org. Six Reasons resentment creeps into your relationships and what to do about it. You're not going to like number one is what I'm going to warn you about. But two, though, at first, you feel angry, you're not being treated fairly or that your needs are being ignored as psychologists, Susan Albers, over time, this nose balls into disappointment, bitterness and hard feelings. Add psychologist Scott B. I once thought of resentment as a failure in problem solving. But now I think it's a battle for empathy. And it's hard to miss address misunderstandings, when you don't think the other people understand or appreciate you. You get into a tug of war about who's right and who's wrong. And egos get in the way. And, and I was like, familiar. And

but I mean, not me. I don't have fought NATO, but other people do.

Yeah. Well, number one on this list of reasons resentment creeps into relationships is always having to be right.

Why would you think I wouldn't like that, Anna?

You know, no, no reason.

I am very quick to apologize. Like, I will absolutely I have no problem apologizing. However, when I know that I am right. Then I will still probably apologize for your feelings potentially being hurt or you know, mind delivery, maybe. But when you know you're right. I mean, you know, you're right, right.

Well, when I say always having to be right when someone is insists they're right all the time, it comes across as arrogant. If you want me to empty the dishwasher, or fold the laundry, or manage toothpaste in a certain way, you're imposing your views of the world on

Oh, that's why I don't like it. Because, first of all,

there are many paths up the mountain. Defend your right to do things your way. Speak up quickly. Don't let the feelings faster. The longer you wait, the more resentful or more the more resentment is likely to build and explode in an argument over something insignificant. It's funny because my mom only thing we fight about, by the way, well, it's my mom always has to be right. And she's has to be. She has to be right so much. It doesn't it's never occurred to her she was wrong.

I really do think your mom and I are gonna get along.

Oh, you're gonna be like, Oh my she's gonna be like, Oh, there's the daughter that was swapped. At birth. You know, she'll be like, I knew there was some problem. So we joke that like, if, if you're telling her something she doesn't know. She has an like, this expression comes over her face. And I was like, oh, no, the computer's going does not compute that. And she's like what he mean? And I said, when when you literally can't believe you don't know something and are presented with new information. You literally make a face fighting it. She was like, oh my god I do me, like I constantly with her have to be like, or that's your opinion. I think a lot of people with the thing of rightness do forget, like, it's, it's right for you. It's your way, you know, which my thing with that is like, if you care, like if you like you mean way we laughed about this about your dishwasher because I knew you had a way it was supposed to be loaded. So I was like, I'm not loading this because I know you have a way to do it. And you were like, correct.

I feel so bad for him. Like I

I really keep this probably like me, though, where it's like, I don't care. So wonderful that you do.

Do well. Yes. However, like I could really ease up on the constant correcting him about things that like, do they matter? Absolutely not. Is it going to get done? Of course, but like, I will just find something then like just decide that it should have been done my way and be like, the other day it was like he took laundry up. And I was like the laundry like the sheet was wet. And he was like, Oh, I thought it was just cold. I was like, No, it was wet. Like, but why did you bring laundry? Why did you put so much laundry on top of the thing that was already full? He's like, I thought I was doing you a favor. I was like a favor. He was like, I mean, I thought I was hoping. And I I do feel like I'm way too intense in that area in my house in my life. I think that I have a little bit of OCD that I really didn't know that I ever had. Or I mean, I'm not self diagnosing.

And so we got off the podcast and I was like you've got OCD. I was like those are intrusive.

Yeah, totally, totally and undiagnosed me to be fair, I didn't. I didn't self diagnose. So we're in the clear there.

But I think you're right on MDS maker, right?

Exactly. Do people not care if the if the like the shower, like when every time my mom leaves my house, and I go into the guest bathroom, and the shower curtain is open, and the shower mats are crooked. And I'm like, how on earth? Do people live like this? Yeah, I hold resentment. Because of that. Like, I literally am like, how do you leave your cup? Like on a table? And like not pick it up and bring it to the kitchen? When you're done with it? Like, on what planet? Does that make sense? And like, I will hold on to that shit.

See that? I think like, I used to have this argument with a friend. Because she would be like, I think these are things that are I don't want to say arbitrary because they do matter to you, which means that they're not arbitrary. Arbitrary. But they're but I think their personal preferences. And like, I think what you resent about it is that it would you would need to be vulnerable or and say, pick up your glass, you know, like, and I think you get worn out of the heavy detail, you know, which I do too. So that makes sense to me. Well, I

think it's a deeper issue for me to have like, my, my mom, we always had like a really cool house. And my mom has this like situation where she collects a lot of fucking random trinkets and shit, you guys would get along really well. Like, she has a just all these like weird art. I mean, it's cool. It's really cool. I've grown to really appreciate him in my old age. But growing up I was like, what is all this shit. And I I need like my house to be I'm not like a minimalist, but kind of I really my brain and my nervous system, like, absolutely craves. Like a clear space. So for me, I do feel even though I should not impose that on anybody else. And I try really hard to keep myself in check and do it all myself. And just clean up and clean up and clean up and clean up some more. But I wonder like, what is it in me that can't just sit down and let go and why do I resent that other people aren't like me. But one of the things that I saw, aside from this was interesting about resentment is that we all know, but I learned later in life. I think you did too. That is if you don't address it in certain relationships. It's going to carry over into others.

Yeah, yeah. Uh huh.

So this whole like, Oh, if I don't deal with the shit with my dad, I'm gonna like date men that are emotionally unavailable. And Oh, got it. Oh, yeah, whoa, whoa

Well, I think we think like, I mean, I guess I think we think everything can be compartmentalized. And we all want to be like, no, no, no, no, like, it's not a, like, romantic man problem, it's a pop up problem, you know, and it's like, you just can't do it if you were as it's like, I think the older I get, the more convincing become about that, like, if you're not really dealing with whatever the thing is, or whatever is up like you, then you don't get a say, in the way in which it's leaking out, you know, and I guess I'd rather have a say, you know, like, then be doing some wild stuff, you know, like, totally, sometimes it's crazy when you think back and you're like, Oh, my God, like, that was all about blah, blah, blah. But you know, like, I was telling myself, it was about whatever or were, I was, I'm dating this guy once. And he was like, I felt really guilty that, like, I'd kind of gotten swept up in it. And I was young. I was like, 23, so I wasn't being a total terrible person. But he was very sure about me. I mean, he would say things, We'd only been dating a few months. And he was like, as far as I'm concerned, I've met the girl I'm gonna marry. And I was like, Oh, terrible news, or like, really? weren't already. Yeah, I'm like, I am so happy when I get back to my apartment after spending a weekend with you like little guys. Yeah, not looking good for that, my friend.

Oh, my God.

And then I met some girls that were kind of like, you know, fast live in where like, a lot of fun party and I like, was like, I have to become besties with them. And he was like, what has happened, you know? And really, it was like, avoiding, like, I didn't want to break up with him because I felt so guilty eater, like, I didn't know how to handle all of that yet. So I was like, instead, let me become really fixated on being friends with these girls that like partied all the time. You know, like, can't, can't feel your feelings if you're just partying, you know, and I was like, not really. I mean, and then there was a lot of stuff that was building up his resentment with him in terms of just like, feeling objectified, feeling very, like projected upon, like, stuff like that. And I was like, um, I don't really know how to deal with this. So I'm just gonna go out and party instead, you know, but at the time, I didn't, that's not I was like, I can't control the timing, you know, like, I I felt much more innocent about it, you know, it was only later that I was like, oh, yeah, I was totally ducking out. The other thing in this list besides number one, calling out Nina number two, we start sharing the wealth with others. Taking advantage of others if you think someone is being selfish, first try stepping into their shoes. Ask yourself why they are so intent on getting their own needs met. I don't know about you. This is something I'm trying to do more often. It is so hard, because it feels like rigging excuses are something I have a

lot when it comes to assault like really selfish. Yeah, I that's really hard for me. Yeah, I'm

like, I don't give a fuck. I don't care. I literally don't and then someone will be like, well, you know, both their parents were murdered and the dammit, Link. But they say some people weren't taught adequate as kids now stocked with others indoor childhood trauma that made them focus on survival and their own needs first, gently tell the person how their behavior makes you feel suggest after hours using if statements if that doesn't work. Learn to tell the person know confidently and with conviction. Number three feeling put down thoughtless remarks and Tom's rankle know your trigger buttons. Some people trigger our anger without even knowing it. Consider the person's intent considering the person's intent can head off resentment before it takes root. But if other people know your trigger and intentionally hits it, your resentment may be a message Don't ignore the message. Messenger. If you feel repeatedly discounted by a friend, this may be a sign. They are not a good person to have in your life. Hmm,

yeah, yeah, yes, yes, yes. And I

100% agree with that for unrealistic expectations considering other people's nature and habits with clear eyes can spare you emotional turmoil. Let's say you expect your significant other to buy you a romantic gift and they don't if it's not in their personality to do something like that. You've set yourself up for feeling resentful. That is a full on call out of Anna Ruth Tonk because I love to think some sort of magical changes go way to happen, and especially without me discussing it, and love to carry a little resentment about that. I'm like, Oh, they're gonna change be somewhat like, there's zero evidence and potential, of course, not even a little than even a crumb of evidence. And I'm like, I believe in my powers to manifest, I will matter if

you think you can change them, or that they

really I don't, I don't, I don't think you can change anybody. But I think that I have a form of loyalty that can be like, toxic against myself, where I'm like, I'm rooting for you, you know that I'm like, please just be better or whatever. And I think sometimes it can be hard, I think it can be hard. Like, I'm trying to think of an example in my own life where you're like, I guess it's something that getting older has taught me like, don't if like, you're someone who really does want to be fussed over on holidays, or anniversaries, birthdays, or whatever, like, don't eat the person who thinks they're stupid. You know, like, I think all of us waste a lot of time trying to, like, convert people. And it's, you know, I don't know, like, if you do say to them, this stuff is really important to me, like, can we compromise where it's like, it doesn't have to be like, all the hoopla. But could we go out to dinner, you know, like, if they can't see that it's important to you and do a little bit, you know, like, that's maybe not a good fit. You know, like, I think often too, all this resentment builds up. And it's like, you also have to hold yourself accountable. Like you chose someone. Yes. You know, or you're in relationship with someone who's like said, That's not me, you know. So, like, is your resentment fully justified there? I don't know. Like, sometimes I feel like there's almost like, situational resentment, where it's like, neither is really wrong, but it like doesn't feel good. I don't know.

37:03

Yeah, five,

no. Five not being heard. Does your significant other see miles away, don't take it personally, listening is incredibly difficult. This is written also in 2019. They didn't we haven't even had a pandemic yet. So listening is incredibly difficult. Expect that you'll have to repeat your message that drives me crazy. Stay, oh, hate it. Six Oh is being late. This also is calling me out. You may feel that because someone is never on time, they don't care about you. It's tempting to show up late for them that, but that only adds fuel to the fire, gently point out how their weakness makes you feel, always running into the house for one more thing, or getting distracted by inconsequential things, just before you have to leave maybe in an attempt to ease anxiety. But a big thing, they also kept coming back to you. I did think that this was a nice run up of things. rundown of things that I do think commonly cause resentment in relationships. Because it's like, I don't know about you, but I feel like it's never rarely when I'm resentful. Is it anything like that deep? It's more like situational? Or maybe recurrent staff that you're just like this again? You know?

Yeah, with friends and like, I don't have real versus Well, I have no not in real anymore. Man. I have like real resentment towards like one of my old friends. But I think I hold deeper resentment for like my parents than I do. You know, like, I don't really have any resentment towards way I'll be like, in the moment, like, fucking pick up your socks, man. But like, or like, the laundry basket is literally right there. And I'll feel myself getting like so annoyed that he didn't see like something clearly. And I think a lot of that has to do with just self soothing, like, in those moments, I have to take care of myself to be like, This is not a personal attack on you. Like he's not trying to fuck with your day. He's she just literally sees things so differently than you do. And you have to, like, take care of your, yours yourself in this moment and not project things onto him that aren't his responsibility. You don't want somebody who is like he is the most accommodating man in the whole entire world. But what I don't ever want to happen is for and it won't, but what I keep myself really honest about in my marriage is not asking him to, like, always be so flexible, because I'm so demanding. And I am demanding and I am direct and people don't really know what to do with that. I mean, he's learned obviously, and he married me so it's his choice, but I have to Be accountable for my own emotions and my own triggers and my own like, little compulsions. And I'm honest with him about that, you know, I'm like, I and we kind of make it a joke because we, we have to, because otherwise it would just be nasty for it's such an insignificant thing. But when it comes to my parents, when I had a baby, you said something earlier, where it was, like, you know, we, we can't choose when these things come up, right. And I say this to people who are about to have children often that I work with. And I don't know, if my midwife said this to me, or I just felt the wave. But when you have a baby, often, and I hear this a lot from mothers, it is like a rush of stuff that comes up. And then when you start to raise when I started to raise my son, like, a lot of other stuff starts to come up, right? Like, how could you do this to me? How could you not do that for me? How could you like what is wrong with you? Yeah, and I started to build like a case against both of my parents. And for the first like, two years of his life, I was like, check, I'm fucking nope, nope, didn't do that didn't do that. And it was doing me so much harm. And I had to be really honest, like, you can I can talk to them about it. I can say my piece, which I feel grateful that I'm can be really open with my parents. But first of all, what's done is done. And second of all, it's not helpful for me to dwell on it, I can absolutely honor that. I looking back and hurt by things that I didn't know I was hurt by, but strangling it. And seething and bathing in it is just

so icky. Yeah, it's, I think that there's an addictive quality to it. That Fuck yeah, you have to be really aware of like, Have you ever had a friend Oh, I don't have kids in yet. I feel that as well. Like, I'll have moments where I'm like, you know, like, What the fuck, you know, like, I'll just or I don't know, it's like, you know, sometimes like, you know, like, obviously, because lots of stuff that happened is like, we were kids. So that's like, when it got filed. So it's like, you don't question it, like you normalized it, it was your life or whatever. And then as you get older, sometimes you're like, wait a minute, or like, that was so you know, or whatever. I have that. And you know how many even birth? No, you can't do that.

You got to do that, too.

Yeah, but like, I can't even imagine if I'd had a child is my point of like, if, you know, like, I wouldn't say it's been that intense for me. But it's a very strange feeling. It's a it's a really weird feeling to be like, because I think when you're younger, there's a lot of being dismissive. Like, well, you'll know one day or one day, you'll be an adult or one day you'll be ability ratio, or one day, totally. Yeah. And I think I got to some point where I'm like, No, I think there were some wild decisions made, you know, like, I think we can look at some of this and go, it was like, unequivocally bad, or irresponsible or whatever, harmful. But I think, like, Should you ever have a friend who's like going through something in maybe a breakup or whatever? And in, they'll be like, you know, kind of like, oh, I can't believe I ever dated them. But, you know, like, and then it's, it's like weeks of like continuing to build the case or come to e&m, like, reviewing the tape or whatever. And it's like, yeah, do you think like, I think it's helpful to review something to sort of try to pinpoint something like, I'm resentful because this person has a way of like, always getting me to take responsibility for them or whatever. That I think is helpful because then you know what to correct or what you know what to be aware of, of, like, I have to, like, not take the bait or I have to like hear their request and sit in my own discomfort, not answering it or whatever. I think it's hard sometimes when you're trying to witness or hold space for someone to not be like, you're about to become a resentment, Rachel, like Joel, you know, because it's like, and I don't I don't know about you as well. But the older I get to the less I like, want to give a ton of energy to that. So like, I think lately, I've had some trouble with some friends. Or maybe I'm developing some resentment for some friends who have are just complaining a lot, you know? And yeah, cleaning about the same topics. And yeah, I'm like, it's tough. I don't regret like, they're I think they're allowed to feel how they feel their situations like our complaint, a bowl, you know, like, all of that's valid. But do you think we like? Do you think you'd be a good friend, good person, whatever. You owe people like, no.

I used to be that person. Yeah. And it was so fucking annoying. And but here's the thing I would usually well, one friend, I would do it to who God bless her. She's still friends with me. And I'm like, I'm really sorry about that. But the other friend that I would talk about it primary, and it would always be about this one guy. And I wouldn't really obsess about anybody but this one guy. And the, we would do it with each other, though, if he she wouldn't be obsessing about one guy, and I'd be obsessing. So we weren't really listening to either. The other one we were just like, are using each other, we're literally using each other. And we're still amazing ly close. And but she would go on vacation. I remember one specifically. And we would drink a ton of wine. And we would just be like, in our own world essentially being like, can you believe and just like, like staring out at the ocean, like just bitching to ourselves with the other one next to us. And so I feel like I do have compassion. But here's what here's where I'm gonna get like, kind of on, it's going to be an unfair statement. I'd like to reserve that for a specific time in life, where like, after a certain time, like you must mature out of that. And I find it to be incredibly immature when people can't. And I know that there are many reasons why. But when people can't read social cues, or read face expressions or body language, and they keep going, it's like, you have a window. If you want to talk about something, you want to complain about something like Go for it. But like, then you have to, like get a therapist, get a diary. Go the fucking SoulCycle I don't give a shit. But I am not like I remember one of my friends. I said to her once I was like, I love you. But I am not your therapist. Like, we can't do this over and over and over again. So like I I would please ask you to get one.

Yeah, I think also to like a friend of mine said to me once she was like, you know, you're, you're cycling, so I can't continue this, this conversation anymore. And at the time, I was like, damn, and it it felt harsh. Yeah, but it was, but she was right. And I knew it. You know, like, I knew I was just sort of rehashing and saying the same stuff. You know, I wonder what it is about that, that that feels good to us. Like, I guess it feels maybe like when you are upset, it feels like, act like you're doing something. You know,

I also think it's a connection to the person that you might not be ready to admit that you want or are still holding on to. But I think that if you're constantly talking about something, or someone, they're still like a link, and I don't know, we're ready to break it off. Yeah. And walk away and do this thing that we need to do. So we're just like, I know, instead of moving forward, I'll just fucking swim in this for another six months to a year.

Yeah. I've had to be sort of firm with friends in the past and be like, Wait a second. Has there been anything new since the blah, blah, blah, or whatever? And they're like, no, and then I'm like, well, then there's nothing to discuss. Because I'm just like, next topic. Yeah, totally

fair. And a handful thing you can do to a friend is be honest, and they might not like it. But kindness is not like being nice is not the answer all the time, like or hardly at all. Like being kind is very different. But just being like a pleasing person who is a receptacle for other people's trash or like, and that's what it is. It's like who who talks about that? I can't quote them accurately, but someone like no, you hold the trash. No, I'll hold the trash. But you have to, like number one, you have to also hold other people's trash. If you're going to be in that even exchange. Not immediately after, like, Okay, now you tell me your problems. But if someone is always handing you your their trash, and it's the same shit, you're gonna be like, Listen, you got to drop this off somewhere else. Sorry.

Yeah. And it's also like if, I mean, I guess some of it too is how you define friendship, you know? But like friendship to me isn't just like, blind loyalty or something or blind. And it's like, you know, I don't know, are we not seeing blank because it's ableist. But it's not like, it's not just this, it's not a free for all, you know, like you just because you only want to talk about your acts or whatever doesn't mean, that's what our friendship has now, you know, which I think can be tricky and tricky to remember. Because like most of us, I think, are trying to be good friends and show up for people and stuff like that. So it can like feel like what you're doing is not nice, but to your point, it may be isn't nice, but it's kind. It's kind to stop someone when they're going in a loop, you know? Yeah, I

also think that's what I mean by maturity. Like, I think that that's a lot of what friendship is when you're in your teens and 20s, like this, just, you know, absolute dedication and loyalty and your like friends or your family. And you're all and I'm not saying that that's not true later in life. But I would hope there's a different set of standards, and better boundaries than I had when I was 17 or 23. So I think if somebody isn't respecting those, it's absolutely going to be able to resolve and resentment, like, for sure. Because if your agreement has changed, but you haven't told them that, or the current year contract has changed, you haven't told them? How are they supposed to know. And it's not really their job to know unless you express yourself, right. And that's where the vulnerability piece comes in. Not a lot of us want to take ownership for self included, it's really hard. But it's so necessary. Like I had a friend who I was friends with for God, like 20 years. And I called her our entire friendship hinged on me getting in touch and reaching out. And that was how a lot of my friendships where I realized, like, when at one day, I was like, I'm not going to call anybody ever again. And then a lot of a lot of them ended. But with this specific friend I reached out was super vulnerable and was like, I haven't called you in a year. And here's why. And she was like, I really can't take this on right now. I can't, like I love you. But like, I can't talk about it. And I was like, that's fine. I've, I've said my piece. And like, as far as I'm concerned, the friendship is over, especially because there's literally not even acknowledgement or a moment of like, let's talk about that. Or here's what's been going on with me. It was just complete avoidance. And maybe that worked 10 years ago, where I'd be like, Oh, that's just her. That's how she is she just disappears. Now I'm like, wish you the best of luck. But like, we are done.

Yeah, it's no longer acceptable, if absolutely not the unfair. I mean, I don't disagree with you, I think ideally, we are maturing, as we grow older. But you know what, as my mama says growing older, not a choice, you know, maturing a choice. And I I do think unfortunately, it's a choice, you know, do you think a certain amount of resentment in relationships is normal? I mean, a little bit, I mean, like, Yeah,

I do understandable, normal, I mean, healthy, even, like, as long as it's dealt with, or because I think we need to feel the range of emotions. I absolutely. And whether this is like a sub emotion, what is a mood blah, blah, like you're going to feel at all, especially if they're people with you for a long time or, you know, a deep time. So I don't think there's anything wrong with being resentful. I think what is important is that we acknowledge the deeper meaning to it, and what, like what needs to heal, not just sit in the resentment, but to be like, Okay, what does that bring up for me? Or what do I actually maybe what do I need to talk about with this person to either potentially avoid more resentment or to clarify my needs? Or my thoughts and feelings to them? So that maybe they can course correct?

Yeah. Because I definitely have had times when I felt a little resentful and was like, before I fully commit to it, and I would say my therapist is, is the number one person I can point to is helped me do this. And who encourages me to do this is like, you know, like, get more information, find out what it was find out what actually is happening, you know, and it's so annoying, when you'll be like, I'm a little resentful, and then be like, Hey, why did you bla bla bla? Or What was this about? And they're like, Oh, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you're like, that's totally valid. And you feel like, you're I'm always annoyed sometimes when it's like, just such a valid human thing. Is it like my resume and like dissipates?

feeling in the moment?

Yeah. Like, I was like, so sure. Like, I thought we're gonna have a conversation or whatever. And I'm like, Oh, fair enough, you know, like, it just go. It's kind of like, you know, when you're angry, or someone else is angry, and you in there, like, you bump up and you're like, You're right. I'm so sorry. I should have done it. No, like, you know, like, don't do.

Okay. Yeah, totally.

So and I, sorry, go ahead. But I think like rizoma is similar that, like, unfortunately, it's like, a huge hurdle is seeing it is having empathy or like being willing to like, in the example with your friend, like, call them and be like, Hey, I haven't talked to you in a year. Like, you're curious why, you know, like, it's so tough to get over that. But it's that hump of like, you know, trying to, you know, maybe have some q&a, communication or get your needs met or something like that. But it doesn't really work. Because you know,

what I felt like freedom. As I knew, I kind of knew the outcome was going to be that she was just going to do the same thing as she's done for 20 years, which is a void and, and I was really the one that had changed in that respect. So I wasn't expecting her to. But what was different was, instead of getting my feelings hurt perpetually, I was like, I'm going to I'm different. And I don't want to do it anymore. So I'm going to tell her why I'm exiting or why I'm, why I'm her or why it doesn't feel good and give her an opportunity. But I'm not going to, like, assume she's going to fix anything, or do anything different Lee, and she didn't. And so I felt like I really did my best I've tried. I've forgiven her. And but that doesn't mean that I want her in my life. And I don't. So I think, in closing, what is your number one hot resentment, tip forgetting for getting rid of it? For getting

rid of it? Hmm. I think figuring out what the resentment is truly about, you know, like, I'll feel a lot of resentment towards my brother. And my resentment is actually jealousy. That I, my, my brother can be wildly irresponsible, and I envy him for that. I'm like, I wish I could just be irresponsible. Sometimes. I don't really. But I feel like he has like a freedom of Spirit that I don't sometimes, you know, that's not really about him. That's not really about anything he's doing, you know, and that helps my resentment dissipate. So sometimes I think it can be really helpful to be like, what is it act? Like? What is it actually about? And I'm not saying like, I don't think the answer is always like, inside, and it's really something you're doing or whatever, like, I'm not trying to be too psycho babbling about it. But using the example of my brother, it's like, yeah, I don't actually resent him, you know, like, it's more like, he's a symbol of something. And that just helps me deal with it better. And that makes me go, you know, it gives me something to give to myself, which is like, okay, where would you like more freedom in your life? Then you Where can you give yourself more freedom? You know, like, if you perceive him as living very freely or whatever, how can you do that? So then you're, you know, it's not really about him. So that would be one of my big things is if you can really try to figure out like, what it is, because I would say that that's something that comes up a lot for me that like, I think it's about the person, but it's actually not, is one and then two. If you I know you asked for one, but this one I do feel strongly about if it's hard for you to sometimes discuss your feelings or name them, or be direct with people, I think it can be helpful to come up with a few lines that you have ready in your pocket for when something's up when, you know, if you do have the friend who's showing up late all the time, or you have the partner who's not cleaning up their socks or whatever, that you can, you know, just have that pocket, you know, in your back pocket to go like, hey, like, I know it's not your intention. Did you know but it hurts my feelings when you blah, you know, like and that that way it's like not a big deal. When it happens. You have it ready, you slot in your your, you know, like you may get a mad libs and slot in what applies right now. And then you're done. You know, like, I think that that can be really helpful too. So whenever you're, you're dealing with it. It doesn't it's not super activating to your nervous system. You're like, Oh, I know what to do here. I have my little script. What what applies? What are your tips? So,

my tip, I'm just going to mull there, they'll do two short ones. One is write it out. So similar, but write it out, speak it out, kind of talk yourself. Not out of it, but like into it and see, you know, but out loud. Like, I think it's really important sometimes to verbalize. And that is an act of energetically moving it so that it's not sitting with us. And the other would be maybe asking yourself, like, what you need or what you would like to get on the other side of if it was a potential conversation or just a healing moment with you and you like, what would be a desired outcome for you and not so that you could end in disappointment, but maybe you can, there's something there that you can give to yourself so you're not expecting it from somebody else.

That's a great point. That's a that's that's a good tip. Thanks. Cool.

So happy resenting, and

may your days be filled with resentment?

resent on. That's all for today's episode.

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