Welcome to the Borderlands Trail and Ultra Running podcast.

My name is Josh.

I am back with you on another episode with Taylor Bodeen, lead trail reviewer of Believe in the Run.

Today we do a deep dive into three running shoe brands that have all come about in the last few years.

Normal, Norda and Speedland.

They all have incredible followings.

And today with Taylor, we talk brand, but we go deeper into the shoe technology.

All the things that you would want to know when assessing whether or not these are the right shoes free you.

And even if you're not on the market for shoes and you just enjoy the brand and the culture of any of these brands, you're going to enjoy this episode.

I always enjoy my discussions with Taylor.

I always learn something which is not even necessarily the most important thing to me.

I just enjoy a good, solid conversation with a, with a good person.

And that's Taylor.

And then the next layer down is, man, these, we, we learn quite a bit about each one of these brands.

We talk founders, we talk origin stories, we talk brand values.

And then of course, Taylor takes us through the tech Borderlands.

Somehow we're still not learning Borderlands.

We still suck at running.

I am full speed ahead on building what I'm calling a viral media experience at Western states called Roby House.

It's essentially if David Letterman had a baby with Jackass and that baby was a non elite runner, that's what Robie House is going to be.

I think you're going to love it.

It's going to be the week of Western states.

Before the race.

We're going to be out at Incline Village outside of Tahoe and it's going to be a blast.

There's going to be a lot of fun people joining me.

You'll hear a lot about it, but just want you to start putting that on your radar now.

Also, Devil's Gulch 100 is hard as hell.

It's 100 miles, 50 miler and a half marathon up in Wenatchee.

Lots of elevation gain and high altitude and it's everything that we love in our American ultra trail.

So check that out.

Also, I'm doing a Live podcast on January 18th in Salt Lake City with Billy Yang.

I can't tell you how excited I am, how honored I am to get to be on stage with him, chat with him.

We're going to do a Q and A.

We're going to, we're going to go for a 5k run with him.

It's really going to be a celebration of trail running and Billy's impact on it.

And I'm excited to host you for that day.

Early access to the podcast tickets are going to be for people who are signed up for the Salt Lake Foothills Trail Races.

They'll have first dibs at the tickets.

And to be honest, we may not have tickets beyond that.

Depends on the venue that we get.

We're still nailing that down.

Okay, here's my episode with Taylor Bodine, lead trail reviewer of Believe in the Run.

It's another banger.

Enjoy.

All right.

As you know, I've, uh.

I've never been the guy who drills down on gear.

I like gear.

I like the way it looks, I care about how it functions, but I've never drilled down on it.

Um, but now I find myself looking forward to these episodes every week, every other week with Taylor Bodine, lead trail reviewer of Believe in the Run.

Because I've got my.

I've been building my vocabulary.

I think I'm a.

I think I'm like a 5 percenter, like bottom 5% in terms of how much I know about shoes, even though I've worn them my whole life.

Been running in trail shoes for 13 years or so.

And so we've gone brand by brand, and we've started with heritage.

We kind of paid sort of an homage to all the.

All the greats that have gone before us, that have set up our industry to be what it is in terms of Salomon and what's happened North Face recently.

And we've looked at Brooks Did a little bit with Terex.

But today we feel like we've kind of made that.

We've spent our time in heritage, we've done our time, we've paid our respects, and now we're.

We're into these modern shoe companies, these new shoe companies, 20, 20, 21, 22 that all just come out recently and they've made a huge splash.

And one time, a quote that sticks with me from Taylor is that, well, maybe Hoka isn't going to have one dominant competitor, but it's going to be death by a thousand 1 percenters.

And today I think we've got a handful of 1 percenters, maybe more.

Depends on if you're in Europe, depends on if you're in America.

But before we get into normal, Norda and Speedland.

Taylor, welcome.

Thanks for joining me.

Yeah, thanks for joining me.

As you were talking, I'm just thinking about.

I was just creating an article.

We do our end of year, our Best in Gear awards, and it was interesting.

I just kept thinking about our conversations because of the shoes that popped up of what our reviewers love the most in each category.

And yeah, it has a, it has some of those heritage brands.

Like it was actually a surprise to me that Brooks showed up on there the most of like, oh man, I.

Know that means I was wrong.

Well, I mean, in some ways but, and yeah, in some ways we are, but we were, but we were totally right on that brand.

It's, it's here, it's, it'll, it'll come in with a big swing.

Like I had a big lineup this last year and they were all like good enough to be on our year end awards.

But then there's also a lot of brands that are showing up that, yeah, there are these 1% really niche, you could say.

But they're, they're making, they're, they're making a big splash even though they're smaller companies.

And yeah, I don't think we could be at this point in trail running without any of those big players that we've talked about before.

But I'm excited about this talk today because it's, it's getting into all the, if you're a gear nerd, it's going to get into all that.

If you're looking for running experience, it's, it encompasses all that and there's just small nuances between each brand that makes it so unique that there is space for all of these 1% brands.

What's fun about the doing brands like this for me?

And we'll see when we get into normal.

Maybe they're an exception, but they're new, they're young, they're nimble.

So every release is really exciting because they're still developing their vocabulary, their design language, their feature, their product language, all this sort of stuff.

So each one has to me a lot of anticipation or at least excitement when it gets released.

But why don't we just jump in?

We kind of had a little exercise right before that was kind of fun.

It's, hey, we're going to have these three brands, which ones we think have the most sales just for fun.

And your comment was.

Well, it depends on if we're in Europe or in America.

We're just going to guess here and we're going to go in this order that we're going to go normal first.

Because I'm in Europe, I, I do see normal around here.

I've seen normal running along the river here.

I've even seen them actually and more so in a lifestyle application, people just walking around with their, their normal trail shoes.

On, then we'll do Norda and then we'll do Speedland.

We're just guessing in terms of total sales volume, and we've never done multiple brands in one show.

So also that.

That's a unique challenge for me to drive this, you know, to push this along at a reasonable pace where they all get their fair share, they all deserve it.

But let's jump in with Normal, Killian, Jornette, and it's a Killian, Jornette and Camper partnership that started in 2022.

My primary question, and it also then is my primary concern compared to Norda and Speedland, which are true startups.

Killian joined forces with Camper and Camper.

If you ever go to a major city in Paris, you'll see Camper shoe stores everywhere.

They're huge.

What do you know about Camper and Killian working together?

The basics of what I know, and this is coming from an American perspective and talking to Americans connected with Normal, is that Camper is a resource.

They're a financial resource.

They can get any materials that you want.

So they're really an incredible resource.

Incredible.

They have incredible experience, a long time of experience in the footwear industry and gear industry.

So that seems to be what Camper is mostly for Normal.

A resource in a lot of different ways.

Not just a financial resource, but a solid resource.

Okay, that makes sense.

And I see also that they're from Majorca, Spain.

And so maybe there's that connection to.

I never knew that.

I always thought with a name like Camper, to me, that was maybe British or something that's.

Yeah.

Not Spanish.

But it looks like there's.

There's a.

Maybe there's some connection there on the Spanish level.

Yeah, there could be.

I.

I'm not sure of that for sure.

But, yeah, I think it's.

It's kind of that for a financial perspective.

From a financial perspective for Killian and his family of, like, that's the way to go.

Instead of taking out all this capital, getting investors.

Otherwise, of.

Yeah, that would be a huge.

It's a huge jump.

Which.

Yeah.

And it's like when you look at the other two brands, these are when they started.

The founders were.

They're late in their career.

I shouldn't say late in their career, but they.

They have a lot of experience in this industry before jumping into their own.

Their own venture.

And so.

And so does Killian.

He's still fairly young, though.

He had a ton of experience working with product at Salomon.

And I mean, we talked about that.

On our Salomon episode.

You guys should go back and listen to that if you haven't.

Of like he was along for those early years of development into what it is today.

Some of the shoes that are still coming out still absolutely have his influence.

And so.

Yeah, so there's a lot of experience coming into this little sphere of what normal is now and.

Yeah, and pays dividends, apparently.

It's a great perspective.

I don't know how I didn't think of it that way because that's generally how I think.

But yeah, he just, he, he kind of had a cheat code by going with Camper.

Killian doesn't have to manage supply chain.

He doesn't have to manage sales teams.

I know they have them.

I don't know, you know, I don't know the structure and maybe it's outside the scope of the show, but you're right, there's like a hack that he got with Camper and if he feels some level of alignment with him on environmental impact or something like that, it's not obvious that Camper's value proposition is an environmental impact proposition, but maybe there is something there.

There's some alignment.

And so he got a hack into getting a shoe company, you know, at a young age without, without the capital.

So what is, yeah.

What makes a normal shoe a normal shoe?

Like what's their, what's their thing?

Yeah, I think if we first like talk about ethos for, for Killian himself when he's wanting to design a shoe, like the main, the main front is sustainability.

So creating one, a good shoe that performs that you're going to want to be in because I mean if you're not selling it and nobody wants to be in, it doesn't really matter.

Doesn't matter the impact on the environment.

Exactly.

And so if also Killian's using all of these products and so if he's not using them, if they're not up to that standard, to be at a world class performance level like again.

So that's, that's another point.

So yeah, it sustainable from the standpoint of you want to be able to wear it and you want to be able, you got to be able to wear it for a long time.

And so he's going for a certain experience, just like we talked about with Solomon.

It's going to be that more grounded feel, the earth be connected type experience.

And that's where they came out with their first normal shrock.

So it's a lower to the ground, really versatile shoe.

Super light.

That's What a lot of people like about it, super light, super durable.

And it feels mostly modern when you think of the scope of what the market is right now for trail running.

Like I mentioned our Best in Gear Awards, 16 of the 19 shoes that were on there had a.

Some sort of supercritical modern midsole.

So the foam underneath the foot, which is going to be.

It's going to be a lighter experience, it's going to be bouncier.

That kind of experience where that's not exactly what was going on here.

This is a softer midsole and.

But it's not exactly that.

It's going to be, yeah, a lower to the ground, connected feel that's going to be good for anything from technical to shorter races.

Some people are doing their hundred miles in these.

I mean, it's just going to be based off of what you prefer, but it's just a really solid shoe.

Durable, super durable.

Has that matrix upper, really, really technical Vibram Megagrip outsole.

So from a material standpoint, they're really building this thing to be strong, light, fast, connected to the ground.

Is there anything innovative happening here?

Or did Killian, in a lot of ways, take everything he did at Salomon and all that time and kind of all of that knowledge and brought it into his ideal perfect shoe.

I think that's where that's basically the idea behind the shock of like coming in and finding, creating a shoe that would be fairly ideal in a lot of circumstances.

I mean, Killian's broken a lot of records in this shoe.

There's nothing, nothing from like a materials.

I mean the materials are special.

Don't get me wrong, they're the highest quality.

But from like there's no like plates inside of this.

There's no high stack that's making you bounce.

It's just a secure fitting shoe, really reliable.

Like I just love putting this on and going for a trail run, no matter really where, where it goes or what I'm doing.

So.

And that is that the one from 2022?

Yeah.

So this was their first shoe, their first launch.

And I think it retails at 195.

Okay.

And so that is steep.

But something that normal is doing is that they have the ability, they designed the outsole and the midsole.

How that connects in a way that you can just resole this shoe.

Oh.

Whoa.

And yeah.

And so if you can just get a new sole, which is mostly why people get new shoes in the trail world, their sole is gone.

A lot of like older shoes.

57 to 10 years back, the midsole actually doesn't change all that much.

And that's what's really nice with this shoe of like the midsole.

No matter how many miles you have on, it isn't going to change all that much.

But you might.

Your outsole, even though this is Vibra megagrip, some of the best in the industry, you can just replace that.

Whoa.

And so that I've never heard before.

I mean could, if I had that shoe and I wanted to replace it, is it something that I can do?

Do I send it to them?

How do you, how do you actually get that done?

So they're working out the details of how that is.

Some of some places have like a pop up shop like in Boulder.

I don't know if they have it yet, but they'll have a cobbler there who will specifically that they work with, who would specifically work on normal shoes.

Oh, that's.

You can bring them in, get your new mega grip on there and go.

And so from that standpoint, like that's sustainable, right?

Like keeping shoes on your feet longer, keeping them out of the landfill longer.

Yeah, yeah, I'm.

I like that idea for sure.

And they're coming out with a new shoe.

I'm sure you heard of it.

That's more of a modular type.

And so it's the normal.

I think they say Chaboy.

It looks like K box.

Some people like your boy Scott, we'll be talking about.

I think it's Cha Boy.

That is.

That's crazy.

Yeah.

Yes, I've seen it and it actually is a very good looking shoe and it has some design elements that remind me of Norda actually.

Totally.

Yeah.

So there's.

That's their upcoming shoe for this next year that you can get some presale right now.

And the whole idea behind that is taking this idea further where one, you can change the foam that you're going to be feeling underfoot.

So if you want, if you want this experience that's more connected to the ground, more of a daily feel, you could put in an EVA midsole.

If you want something that's lighter, faster, bouncier, you can take out that midsole.

It's.

It's really an insole, but it's your midsole.

The same foam you're going to feel you can take that out and put in one of a different material like a PEBA material that's going to be highly responsive, highly cushioned.

Doing that for race day or long efforts or something like that, but you can also.

On that, you can see.

I think you're.

What you're seeing with Speedland is that that stitched outsole that.

That comes up around the forefoot, around the foot a little bit.

So their idea with that is just take all that off, replace it when you need it, take out the midsole, replace it.

So you have three shoes in one, essentially.

Wow.

So then you can just send that back when you need a new one in order.

Just that foam you drop in.

And the upper, I believe, is matrix.

I can't remember what it is.

And that's really.

It's like one of the lightest, most durable uppers.

If a shoe breaks down with matrix, it's not the matrix that's blown up.

And so you have all these pieces that you can replace as needed.

And that's their take on having a shoe that can give you a lot of experiences and it's more sustainable.

It's a really cool idea.

Okay.

I came into this conversation wanting to be critical of Normal on their camper partnership, but you changed my perspective on that.

I wanted to be critical on their design, but I've actually seen this Shiboy got me excited.

I also wanted to be critical on their.

What sometimes could feel like virtue signaling, but there's actually some real innovation happening on the impact side of things if it's not the material side of things.

So all the things I was ready to be critical on now, the virtue signaling side of things, it's just maybe as someone who's far away from and not like, not like as close to it as you are.

I heard a lot of these environmental things, but they were not obvious to me.

Yeah, I was missing the marketing or something, but.

Or maybe he was touting it before this sort of thing was out.

But I think this is.

I mean, that's, that's.

Other than materials, that's.

That's a.

That's revolutionary in some degrees, to be able to just replace certain parts of your shoe.

That's really impressive.

Totally.

And I know that's like with Speedlands onset and maybe we'll go to Speedland next or whoever.

I can't remember who's next, but it's choice.

Oh, sure.

That was a big part of their idea of the desire to be able to go there and be able to like recycle in a sustainable way, but when it comes to practice, it is so hard in the global industry.

And so even, like Normal is not going to come out with a bunch.

Of new shoes every year.

They might Come out with a colorway or two of the same shoe, because this is the type of shoe that a lot of people are going to want to be in.

And so that's their sustainable standpoint of having more of a timeless feel good for about anything.

But also they have another one.

And we'll see this with all of these brands we're talking about today.

They basically have a, like a two shoe quiver and then they're branching out on some of those shoes.

So the other one they have is the Tomir and this is the 2.0.

And this one does have a more super critical modern midsole.

So it is going to feel bouncy, lighter.

And this is their higher stack option.

And that's what you're going to see with all these brands.

They have a lower stack option good for just about anything.

Higher stack option that has a lot of the same ingredients, gives you a little bit of a different experience in terms of what the ride's gonna feel like.

Different comfort measures, but for the most part, like this one is on our Best in Gear awards, the Tomir 2.0, because it's a higher stack shoe, but also very durable, can go on a lot of different terrain.

Like, I take these into the mountains regularly, so.

Yeah.

So just kind of hitting a lot of standpoints, keeping them on people's feet.

Yeah.

And then.

Yeah, that's the one.

I was just looking up the different colorways.

That's the one that I saw that I've seen like in streetwear or lifestyle application here.

Yeah.

So really comfortable.

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah, that's what I said.

I said, oh, you're a trail runner.

And he said, no, I've never, I will never, but I love these shoes.

So.

Yeah.

Oh, and just for normal sake, I might want to say this of like, we know a lot of Killian's influence prompted a much slimmer last at Solomon.

One thing with normal, it is going to be slimmer in the right spots in the midfoot and the heel get really good lockdown.

We've talked about that.

Yeah.

But then in the forefoot, it's going to be more generous than most of the Solomon.

I know.

That's what some people hold.

Some people back from trying.

Normal is they just feel like it's going to be a really slim.

Yeah.

All the way through a slim fit.

But they are a little more generous and they run a little bit long, especially on the Shirak.

So, yeah, I think it's because they're so low profile.

Like, like, you know, my Description of Solomon back.

Back when we did that one was like, there's like an F1 feeling to it.

It's just like, yeah, very low profile and the material, there's nothing chunky about it.

And so then the perception might be that it's smaller or narrower.

Yep, exactly.

Yeah.

So, all right, so in 2021, our friends, Dave, Don Brown, Kevin Fallon, they were, they were tooling around.

They were the former heads of everything shoe design everywhere.

Except for where Jean Marc Dejon was apparently.

Exactly.

You know, these guys were, you know, they were made for this and they.

A lot of fun.

They were.

I think they had something that they called like Fuck Around Fridays or something that they were doing during the pandemic where they would just make up some shoes for fun on a Friday.

They still do it.

Nice.

Yeah, Kevin always.

Kevin and Dave, they post on their personal accounts a lot.

And yeah.

Speedland was born and you know, my.

I was fortunate enough to have Dave Dombrow came to Salt Lake and we did a podcast together and thoroughly enjoyed him.

I mean, I'm into him for the design.

I love the design so much.

And where he kept pushing me in that conversation was, no, we're here for function.

It's not a coincidence that it looks good, but it's not our primary thing.

It's like their value proposition is zero compromise on materials.

We don't care what we have to charge, but we're going to put the best materials.

So that's kind of my two cents on that.

What's your read on it?

What's your take on them?

Well, I thought it was pretty cool for us at Believe in the Run.

We were with them when they launched.

Oh really?

We were part of the story the whole time.

And it's just been so fun to like one learn from those guys because their experience levels when you put them both together and they've done a lot of jobs together over the years, but they've also been separate brands at times and now they're back together.

It kind of reminds me of.

And they're car people and so this would resonate with them of like, you know, later on in your career when you have a little more money.

And some older folk, they're really not that old, of like, they get really into cars and can finally start doing the things to the cars that they want.

Like my father in law is going to retire this year and he has a Corvette that he's going to rebuild and hasn't been able to do it, you know, for a long time.

Since he's had kids and all that kind of stuff.

And so it feels like they got to that point in their career where like, yeah, let's just go for it.

Yeah, we can do it together as buddies and, and their experience.

And we talked about this with Killian too, of like, they have the experience right there.

They have everything they need.

They know the ins and outs of the industry.

They know the ins and outs of design and how things work.

And they're both trail runners.

And so that's.

Yeah.

You know, makes this project just near and dear to their hearts.

And that's.

Yeah, I always love, no matter what it is, like when people exude passion, like, it's just fun to have some sort of window into that.

And so, like having our passion to line, I guess, with trail running and then being able to get into something like this.

This was their first shoe.

Like, it is just so cool to get something like this on foot and see how it develops over the years.

And so.

Yeah.

And so Speedland has really had two different styles so far.

And so they're kind of making funnels for their shoes.

So they have the SL models.

Wait, hold on a second.

So they have the GS models.

I'm just going to make, get this clear.

The GS models.

Yeah, this is going to be great for me because I don't understand it.

Yeah.

And so, okay, I had it.

Right.

So they had the SL models, which is their first couple of models.

That's what they came out with.

Really revolutionary, like actually revolutionary for the trail running world.

I think with coming off of like what we were talking about with hoka, that made the bridge between those heritage to these newer, newer ideas.

They brought all the new ideas.

Right.

And at a time where there was just a few coming into the market.

And so this is their SL model, the SL pdx, their first shoe.

Some things you'll notice on this, and these aren't available anymore, so I'm not going to spend too much time on them.

Yeah, but they were the first.

If you're not familiar with boa, it's a style system, but then they have this wrap that comes from the inside of the foot and just secures from the inside over the top and pulls you down into the footbed.

So it's really this shoe, this SL series was the best, is the best fitting shoe I've ever been in.

It's the most secure.

It feels like an extension of your foot.

And so having two dials where most shoes just do one, you can secure the forefoot mid the front part of the forefoot more than you can in most on the other shoe.

And did they do better on that one than future versions, or are you just saying when you put that on, that was the best ever?

And they've continued to get better.

So when I put this on, this was the best ever and still is.

In terms of fit.

You can't dial in really any other shoe the same.

Even one of their newer models, which is the GS series, their higher stack series, you can't get the same experience because you're not as low to the ground.

So this one's going to be a lower to the ground model.

You're going to feel more connected.

So, like, that was one part that's revolutionary.

But then they have this, like, stitched on outsole partly for durability.

And their idea initially was like, hey, when that runs out, yes, we could essentially replace that if we needed to.

So that was revolutionary at the time.

And then another thing that Speedland is famous for is they were the ones who really started that drop in midsole.

And so the foam you would feel underfoot is now inside the shoe and you can drop it in and you can add a plate if you wanted to.

So this is a Carbitex plate, and so it does help a lot with stability.

There's not a lot of torsional motion and you can't bend it in certain ways, but it bends a lot in other ways.

And so it's really becoming custom footwear, which is like, you see, we're seeing it with normal custom footwear.

Spieland, they were the first.

And I'm excited to see where they go.

They're.

They're having a couple more models come out this next year, a new line.

Okay.

And so, so, yeah, they went from this and then applied it, the SL series, and then they applied it to a higher stack.

So that's.

For these new companies.

They're really hitting the more connected feel, the more grounded classic Trail runner feel with their own take on it.

Yeah.

And then they go for a higher stack version, because especially in America, we want the cushion, we want the ride.

And so they have a lot of the design elements we've talked about with other shoe brands of, yes, Higher stack.

This is a beaded TPU external midsole, but they also have the internal drop in midsole, so lots of cushion, different experiences, so different layers of that.

Good.

I mean, a really quality out Michelin outsole still with the two BOA dials, but because this one is higher stack it's not going to feel as nimble of course as some of these other shoes that are lower to the ground.

So that, so that's really like their two offerings.

And I'd, I think it would be honoring to Speedland to say that they work on a commission basis.

So they, they create, they create a lineup of shoes and they might do a few different colorways or iterations of a shoe.

Like this is the GS series.

So this is the GS pdx, the Grand Sport.

And so this is just paying homage to Portland.

But they also have a couple other collaborations with Cam Haynes of this very shoe.

Their first one was a free trail version, but each one has basic.

The basics are all the same on it.

Maybe slight variations in terms of what type of plate sometimes or sometimes like a little bit of an upper adjustment.

Just tiny changes in that series until they go to a new model which they'll have this GL model which is kind of combining the two models they have already meeting them.

Yeah.

So the Michelin Soul.

I mean I like it again, I'm coming at it from.

It's just like a, an aesthetic and a, like a unifying theme of like something about Michelin Phil's Premium because you know, I think a Michelin star restaurants, even though they're, they're a tire company.

What's the.

I mean Michelin versus Aren't there occasional shoes that have like a Goodyear sole or.

Yep.

Pirelli Continental rubber.

Continental.

Yeah.

Compared to the Vibram, you know, like what is it?

What.

Why Michelin for them?

Yeah.

And so one originally Michelin was able to do this wraparound outsole and they partnered with that.

It is a really tacky rubber.

Once it gets colder, it actually freezes up a little bit.

And so that's one of the knocks on it and, and they've adjusted it over time.

Like this is equally as tackly tacky and not, not as conditions dependent.

Yeah.

And so, so it is good rubber.

But nowadays of like with a lot of shoes like we're talking about now splitting hairs of where if Vibra Mega Grip is like the A plus or the A standard, this would be like you know, in the B, B plus range.

You know, so there's a lot of shoes, shoe companies and just rubber companies that are in the game.

Every, every shoe brand wants their own rubber.

But some companies will go out and a lot of them will go out to like Vibram and whatnot.

But yeah, it really is like.

Yeah, it's, it's a scale that's Fairly close and for the most part consumers won't pick up on all the nuances.

But because I think if you're a shoe nerd and get in a lot of variety of shoes, you'll start feeling the difference.

Where this is like super tacky is the word I like to see it say.

But it doesn't get a lot of like clawing action and other brands get that better and durability and all that kind of stuff.

You'd say Vibram is the, is the best of the best.

That's the top, I would say from.

It's the most well rounded top performing in terms of grip and application.

There are a couple others like, like VJ shoes has their own outsole that it's a Butyl rubber and it's like incredibly durable and super grippy.

I don't know if I have.

Oh yeah, I do.

Of course you do.

I do.

Yeah.

And so yeah, again in like this would be like if Vibram's the a.

This is, you know, up there in some cases might be better, in some cases might not be, but it's, it's up there.

There's a lot of.

Yeah.

There's just so many brands with so many great things going on.

I mean, Speedland is obviously pretty close to selling out every time.

I mean, I don't know their order sizes, but they're selling out.

I mean, I'm sure buying the right sizes is the challenge.

Like I don't admire, you know, envy any of that, I should say, you know, to be in that position of trying to forecast sizes, all that sort of stuff.

Probably by now they're in pretty good shape and I know their background could get them there as well.

But what do you think for, you know, for Speedland as a brand when they're, you know, putting together their, their next shoe, when they're thinking through the next thing like their, their performance, their performance, they're gonna make that performance even better.

The material even better.

All they're going to keep upgrading all that.

But why don't we see their shoes on more first place finishes?

And I asked that because I asked Dave and I was like, hey, you know, this is clearly, these are clearly good looking shoes.

You probably did design first and function right.

And he said no function.

So these are such great performing shoes.

I think I have an answer for this, but I'm just curious your take, like why don't we see these on more podiums at elite, like you know, of the marquee races.

Yeah, exactly.

For one, like when you take a shoe like this, there's a lot of really quality ingredients and the experience of running in it is really unique.

It's great.

But at the end of the day it's a heavy shoe.

It's one of the heaviest shoes that I've reviewed in recent history.

And so that's, that's one thing.

Elites these days, that's one.

They're tied.

Most of them are tied to brand.

Yes.

So that's one thing.

Yeah.

And another thing is that they're.

One of the first aspects they're going to look at is does it feel light, does it feel fast?

And where this particular series, which they've been focusing on for the last couple of years, the GS series, it's heavier, it feels good.

You can do a lot of different terrain with it.

Even though it's a really high stack shoe, quite versatile.

But the fact is it's, it's heavy, it's not the most nimble, it's.

And if you're feeling that on race day, even in the a hundred milers.

Yeah.

And so where pace is a little more irrelevant, you still want that.

Certain sensations and I don't think this one's going to give the elite sensation per se.

I say that and then you can have someone like Dylan Bowman go out there and crush a hundred miles in it.

Right.

Of like, but that Dylan Bowman's their athlete and so that.

That's part of it too.

And so.

Yeah.

And, and that maybe that's a conversation with you and Wolf Runner of like which brands, you know, like the Yankees, of course they should be winning everything with the highest payroll of like which brands have the highest payroll.

And Speedland just doesn't do that.

It's these two guys with a ton of experience giving some of the best product in the industry, but their focus is getting the best product and like you said, function out there to the masses and not necessarily the elites.

Not saying they're not focusing on the elites because all of their shoes come out of elite level partnerships.

Yeah.

And so I would say as an observation is that Dave and Kevin are happy and so, you know, it's like they, they had as we've mentioned multiple times, these successful career in really high pressure environments.

Like Dave was ahead of design for Under Armour.

Like, and that wasn't just shoes or I mean that was shoes across all sports.

I don't know, massive amount.

Seems like he's just having fun and they seem happy and then they're putting out this great shoe and it's selling Out.

So on that level, like it's fun.

It's fun to drill down on it and ask the questions of why don't they.

Aren't they on more podiums?

But at the end of the day, what an enviable spot to be selling out of all your product.

And to at least perceptively from my.

For my vantage point, they're happy.

That's fantastic.

Totally.

And I mean just 2 of the athletes that they have on their team, like those are.

They're doing the brand thing, right.

Of like they're building a brand on a couple of marquee athletes.

And Cam Haynes, he's a great runner, known for his hunting more than anything.

But they were able to spread well hunting and fitness.

And so they automatically.

With someone who's also trail running, they automatically enter those spaces and they're the landscape changes for them in a sales standpoint.

Because I mean my brother's a big hunter.

He was into fitness and runs every once in a while he would totally grab that shoe just because.

And so well.

And I think like they've done a good job of.

I mean I think Rogan.

They were mentioned on Joe Rogan.

So that was an instant like some credibility.

And I think they were.

Last I talked to him, they were trying to get jelly roll into him.

You know the country artist.

Yes.

Kind of like Post Malone meets like Nashville country.

Okay.

So they're really smart on that level.

Like, you know, they're very good grassroots marketers that with not.

Maybe not a massive marketing budget, they've made all the right decisions and everybody.

And maybe it's because of how unique.

Unique they look or it's the right people talking about it.

But everybody knows about Speedland and they're very young, so kudos.

Yeah.

Well.

And it was interesting being at western states this past year of how many people actually were wearing the GS series for Speedland.

I was really.

I was really impressed actually.

Yeah.

And maybe that's more their.

Their because I was in their neck of the woods.

But I mean you go around.

I'm near Boulder.

If you're trail running around Boulder, you'll see a pair.

Every now and then I see Speedland more than I see normal around here, which is interesting.

That is.

Okay.

Last and certainly not least, I think.

Yeah, I think Norda has the most loyal fans.

I don't want to use cult because I think satisfy has usurped the word cult and turned it into their own thing.

But they've got people that they have a cult following of people who Love Nordis and celebrate them.

And there's.

They've done a pretty special thing from a marketing standpoint, but built around an amazing shoe, an amazing looking shoe.

I've never put one on.

And yeah, the community that built them.

Everyone you talk to seems to know the names of the owners.

Even like, they've really done something special.

You know, Nick and Willa.

I talked to Wolf Runner.

He's like, oh, you should talk to Nick and Willa.

Anyone I talk to, like, oh, Nick and Willa, you really should.

What a great thing to have this brand with beautiful shoes.

And then the owner, like, there's almost like a mom and pop vibe of like, oh, yeah, you should talk to the owners.

They're great people.

Yeah.

Well, yeah, just we were emailing back and forth before going down to the running event and the emails were like, see at the running event.

And then Will is like, somebody has to hold down the barn.

I'll be here in Canada, like very much mom and pop.

Yeah.

But they, I think with all of these brands that we're talking about, their reputation as people, it is just amazing.

Like, each of these brands, Kevin and Dave, wonderful people.

I've never met Killian, but everybody says he's the most amazing person.

And I know some of the people he works with.

Great people.

And like Nick and Willa.

Yeah.

Known them, met them many times of like, they're just great people.

And like, where are they at in Canada?

Where's the headquarters?

Don't ask me that.

That's somewhere.

Somewhere up there.

America's top.

Something that has to do with this topography on their outsole.

Like that kind of design is in there.

Oh, really?

Yeah.

The Canadian Shield is within a lot of their design.

And so, yeah, I don't.

I don't know exactly.

Cool.

Canada.

I want to, I want to go there, but I just don't know too much about it.

Where do I go?

We'll find it.

They'll let us know.

Someone in the audience will let us know after this.

Absolutely.

Yes.

I feel like as Montreal.

I don't even want to say anything because I feel like I'm going to be wrong.

How wrong we are.

Yeah, that's okay.

I'm like that.

But yeah, yeah.

Nick and Will, all of a sudden.

This is an episode of Bad Runners Take here.

Yeah, I'd be glad to be on it.

But yeah, Nick and Will, like, Dave and Kevin, they have a ton of experience in the industry.

Not all like performance footwear, but a big variety that led them to saying, hey, I We want something.

We know what we want, and it's not out there.

So we're going to create it.

And they were able to and that their first shoe was the Norda 01.

And so people loved that one.

Oh, man.

There's a lot to love about it.

And from a material standpoint, the three brands that we're talking about basically have all the same materials.

Vibra Megagrip, Outsole, a Dyneema, like, really durable upper.

This midsole is what's really unique about this shoe.

It's a Vibra midsole, too.

Oh.

And so which is not on very.

This might be the only running shoe that I know of, besides the Norda 02 as well, that has a Vibram Midsole.

They do have some for, like, some of their work shoes and whatnot.

But, yeah, it's just a shoe that can tick a lot of boxes.

Extremely durable.

Like, I end up after retiring this from running.

I still wear this one every day as a teacher, just because midsole still feels so good.

Um, and so just.

Just one of those shoes that's gonna be around for a long time.

It's gonna last for a long time.

Give you the experience that you want for a long time.

And even after its life.

Like, I could probably replace this outsole, which is a quite durable outsole, that Vibram Megagrip.

But yeah, it's just one of those shoes that feels unique, even though there's nothing entirely special about it.

Yep.

And so, yeah, I think the specialness has been marketing around it, the photography around it, the.

I don't.

And I don't know how they did it, but whoever it was, I don't know, this, like 20, 20, 2021 just blew up.

And so many people were treating.

I was surprised that they didn't have, like, this formal ambassador program by the time this airs.

I have released a episode with Wolf Runner about, you know, our bad runners take on.

On ambassador programs.

And he's talking about Nord a lot in that episode.

I'm like, okay, I assume you're an ambassador, a formal ambassador of Norda.

It's like that.

No, I just love them.

It's like, okay, well, they have a conference Norda that without ambassador program, but people just everywhere.

I mean, but it was also people who had a similar aesthetic.

Just like, satisfied, you know, certain look of person goes toward that.

It feels like it was something similar with.

With Norda.

Even if you didn't wear the shoe, you, like, wore the brand.

You know what I mean?

Like you represented it.

Yeah, totally.

And you can just, you can kind of look at someone and see if they're like a satisfied person.

And if they are, they're probably wearing Norda.

And so that's kind of where Norda falls in.

Yeah, they do.

And I think Nick and Will it.

I don't.

I can't remember exactly if they both have like fashion industry background.

Okay.

But they have fashion sense, obviously.

Clearly.

Of when they're designing a shoe.

And so.

Yeah.

It's just it, it looks so good with.

But you won't be able to say exactly why.

It just does.

Right, right, right.

It just has this.

Yeah.

The colors for sure.

And this, this 01 shoe, it'll.

It'll probably always be part of what they have to offer.

I think it's $295, which is up there.

But if it's gonna last a long time and you can wear it as a lifestyle shoe after they come out with new colorways every season.

But it's still the same shoe.

And I love that about.

Yeah, yeah.

That's a good looking shoe.

That will feel, looks and feels timeless.

Okay.

That's a unique thing these days.

I'm looking at all their colorways and.

Yeah.

My goodness.

Yeah.

Axolotl is stunning.

Oh, man.

Okay.

So the.

Yeah.

The price tag, I wasn't expecting that.

I've never formally been on the market, but to see the close up of what's happening on the Soul is worth the price of admission.

That's stunning.

So is it just.

Is it material?

Is that price so high?

These are just.

Is it materials?

Is that.

It's partly.

Partly the same idea as what's going on at Speedland.

They, they chose premium, like cut, no corners.

This is what we want and we know that will perform.

And so that's part of it.

And also, wow.

It's been, I think it's been 295 since they launched it.

Maybe 275 originally.

Okay.

And so it hasn't dropped.

Hasn't gone up.

Well, maybe it did, I guess $25.

But it's still not a.

Yeah.

It's just that they, they're extremely quality ingredients.

Yeah.

And they're put together in a thoughtful enough way to help it perform because we're seeing a lot.

There's like, if I tick the box of Dyneema Vibram and a supercritical midsole, I could pull like probably half or more of the shoes off my wall.

That tick have all those types of ingredients in it, but it's the application and they have the fit.

It's a.

To be slightly more generous in the forefoot, but locked down in the heel and then the midfoot.

That's one thing that people love about it.

They also have the O2, which is their lower to the ground model.

Okay.

Which is basically the same ingredients, just in a lighter package, a little more cushioned around the heel.

But you still get the basic idea of, like, this is going to be.

I.

When I choose between a light and fast shoe, I'm a lot of times choosing between the Norda O2 or the normal Shrock that we were already talking about.

They're in a very similar category.

And so again, all these brands, Norda, Speedland, Normal, they all have basically two options that are going to serve just about anybody.

And they're high quality, high performance, look good, feel good.

Can I show.

I feel like I've been saying normal is coming out with a new shoe, Speedlands coming out with a new shoe.

And they're all kind of hitting that stage in their careers where they're coming out with a third shoe.

And I happen to have the third shoe, I think.

Did they.

Did they release on Instagram recently?

I feel like there's like a tag by the shoelace that says Norda.

That looks really cool.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dang it.

This is the Norda 05.

So this is their race day model.

Okay.

And so.

And they've had a lot of success with their runners in this model.

It's super light, still stays true to all.

All the things that the 01 and the O2 have.

It has that Vibram outsole.

This is a Megagrip Elite, which I've never seen that on a shoe before.

It has that highly responsive midsole.

So this one won't be as durable from that standpoint of being able to, like, take it out for years to come, basically, and have a fairly similar experience.

Also does have that really tenacious but light Dyneema upper.

Wow.

And so again, a lot of the same ingredients, just slightly different application.

And the tweaks to it is what makes it real special.

Is it.

Is it lighter than the 01?

No.

2.

Oh, so much lighter.

Like, this is entering that featherweight, even though it's like the moderate stack.

Wow.

And so here I'll try to hold up both of them.

Fairly similar in terms of stack and everything, but noticeably much more lightweight, performance oriented.

Where did they.

Where did they have the weight?

A lot of it will come in this midsole foam.

Since this Is like a Peba foam.

Pebax is super light, super airy, highly responsive.

The biggest knock on it right now is that it, it doesn't last as long.

Which is why you see it in these race day applications because you bring it out for a special occasion and that's totally this shoe.

Well, man.

Okay.

I do want to ask about the 03.

I.

I almost.

Oh yeah, bought that one.

They call it like an approach shoe, I think.

Yep.

No shoelaces.

Because I, if I'm not going for a run, I don't want to have shoelaces.

And it's the coolest shoe I've ever seen without shoelaces.

I mean I'm looking at it here.

The colorways are sickening.

Like they're so good it hurts.

So if you're into design, it's, it's the most satisfying thing I've seen today, hands down.

They have this if03G plus maple present.

Yeah, what's that?

Oh, that's my favorite one right now.

If you, if you're in the market for a good Christmas present to treat yourself.

So.

So on a daily basis.

I usually wear the O1 just because it's so comfortable.

I like it.

You know, it's.

It's nice enough.

I'm a teacher.

Like I don't have to be super dressed up.

But it's nice.

It looks nice enough where nobody questions it.

Yeah.

In the winter, which is now like it's 14 degrees outside.

Oh, I, I put on the O3 and so it has a waterproof outer.

Hmm.

It's like, it's more of like a neoprene type booty over top and so super weather resistant.

Keeps you really warm.

Like I end up having to take them off at school.

I have a pair of Hoka slides that I throw on.

But it's such an, it's a good looking shoes.

Pretty much.

It's a great shoe and it has all that same performance.

It has that Vibram midsole, Vibram outsole.

Like great shoe just to put on for a hike, for a walk, for just being out in the elements.

It's.

You could run in it.

I've done a like some short trail runs in it to see if it was like a viable trail runner.

And you could.

It's that secure.

Not quite as secure with out some laces, but yeah, it just slips on.

Yeah.

Highly recommend all the shoes we've talked about so far.

Yeah.

I would say okay if I were to think about the high level on all three of These.

And this is just a guess.

I'm fairly certain, you know, there's not like private equity pressure on any of them to like, you know, for exponential growth.

I don't know.

I mean, Camper could have something like that.

I don't know if they're publicly traded and there would be pressure like that.

But I say that because it feels like there's.

There's enough like, it feels like there's an abundance in the industry right now to where, of course, if, if they're a 1 percenter and when we say that, we mean 1% of the market.

And if Hoka's not going to have one main competitor, but they're going to have all these 1 percenters, we're saying Nord, it takes their 1%, speed line takes their 1%, normal takes their 3%, whatever, however that is.

And that's where HOKA will lose market share.

Well, right now it feels like from a consumer standpoint, like it feels like abundance, like there's enough room for all of these brands right now.

They all seem to be carving out their own niche and they're all, at least today's.

Each one has stark raving fans.

And I guess we didn't mention Salt Lake Connection on Normal with Dakota Jones.

You know, each one, there's like some, there's a level of fun.

It's got Killian, you got Dakota.

We, you know, we're saying the owner's names of Speedland.

So it's like going to the local coffee shop to some degree, but they're making shoes.

I mean, like, what a massively difficult thing.

It's.

It's a great time to be in.

It's a great time to be in trail running.

Yeah.

And I, I always appreciate Thomas Newberger, believe in the run.

It's founder.

Yeah.

Of like, he talks about one, the media space, but also the this, the running space in general and that.

We're in a day and age where there is space for everybody.

Yeah.

And when Normal brings their A game, it's only going to impact Norda positively, probably.

And so all the shoes that we talked about today are going to be those 1% shoes probably forever.

Because.

Because they're going to be the shoes that appeal to people who are already in that space.

Yeah.

More so unless they're doing it from a style standpoint.

If you're looking for performance and function, you're likely already a trail runner.

You're likely looking for that next piece of something you probably already have in mind, whether it's comfort or overall Fit, grip, whatever.

And that's how most people are going to be coming into these brands, probably.

Yeah.

So.

But there's also more brands that we're haven't talked about yet that fit that space.

There's also, you know, the 2% and 5% brands too.

Yeah.

When we.

And so, yeah, there's just, there's space for everybody and I, I like being a part of this industry because of it.

We're going to the running event and we're gonna see a couple brands that I've just recently heard of.

Like they're launching this year with similar tendencies of like, we know we want to do this with a shoe and so we're going to do that.

And so, yeah, it's, it's a pretty cool time and space for the running industry as a whole.

Shoes and performance, everything's just getting better and better.

And yeah, it's.

I think some of these shows that we've done in the past are just showing us that every brand has really great things coming.

We're.

Yeah.

Splitting hairs between a lot of this.

Yeah.

And so.

Yeah, just.

Well, there's, there's fun episodes ahead of us that we've concepted and thought through.

Another one of these three show episodes where we're looking at like European brands, like straight up European brands.

And you know, when you come back from tre, I'm sure there's going to be some fun stuff.

We could do an episode all about the new stuff that's dropped there and stuff that you've learned.

Yeah.

I mean that would be so much going on.

Yeah, yeah.

And there.

And it's only increasing, like you said.

Yeah, man.

All right, well, let's do this again really soon.

Have fun at tre.

By the time this drops Tre, you might be back home, but either way.

Yeah, probably.

And we'll.

Yeah.

Thank you.

Do this again soon.

Okay.

Thanks, Josh.

Never.