THREE

[00:00:00] Ross:

[00:00:00] NEXT GENERATION MINDFULNESS

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[00:00:00] Ross: Hi there, and a very warm welcome to Season five, episode three of People's Soup. It's Ross McIntosh here.

[00:00:05] Jutta: whereas the transformative potential of mindfulness is in its power to change leadership and culture in society. And to help us see that we are much more interconnected and that we benefit from seeing ourselves as interconnected. And that's my aspiration to see mindfulness as more than that thing with the breathing

[00:00:25] Ross: PE Soup is, this is the final part of my chat with Utah. We could have gone on for days, but I'm sure she'll be back. Dr. Jutta Tobias Mortlock is a social psychologist from City University of London, who is also the co-director of the Center for Excellence in Mindfulness research.

[00:00:42] Ross: In this episode, Jutta describes more about her published research. The paper is called Extending the Transformative Potential of Mindfulness through Team Mindfulness Training, integrating Individual with Collective Mindfulness in a high stress military setting. And that's saying in Frontiers in psychology.

[00:01:00] Ross: And of course, you'll find a link in the show notes.

[00:01:02] Ross: We find out what there is to learn from geese in terms of teamwork and also how the collective mindfulness literature shows that this reliability or resilience in the face of collective stress for an organization is driven by two things, leadership and culture.

[00:01:17] Ross: We also touch upon the reputational damage to mindfulness caused by the tone deaf way. It can be introduced by some organizations. There's a heck of a lot for your listening pleasure in the next 30 minutes or so, and I've called the episode Lessons from the Skein, which is the name Who knew for a flock of wild geese or swans in flight, typically in a V-shaped formation.

[00:01:40] Ross: People Soup is an award-winning podcast where we share evidence-based behavior or science in a way that's practical, accessible, and fun to [00:02:00] help you glow to work a bit more often. let's just scoot over to the news desk. Reviews are in for part two of my chat with Jutta on LinkedIn. Clive Carey, a business psychologist, said, what a great listen. Jutta and Ross resonated strongly with me, especially the part about mindfulness, helping with personal healing. I'm recording a podcast next Friday.

[00:02:21] Ross: I might well be referencing you two. Thanks for helping to make my. well, thanks so much to you, Clive. I'm so pleased you found it interesting and useful, and thanks to everyone who listened, rated, shared, and reviewed the episode.

[00:02:35] Ross: It's really very much appreciated.

[00:02:37] Ross: But for now, get a brew on and have a listen to part three of my chat with Yuta.

[00:02:49] Ross: Okay, so Jutta, I'd like to dive into a bit more detail around next generation mindfulness and mindfulness beyond meditation. Cause I know so many people will be curious and excited by what we've already spoken about. It just makes intuitive sense. And I think the thing that really struck me, particularly looking at the military context, I was representing you and your team at a conference.

[00:03:14] Ross: And I can't for the life of me, remember where it was, but it was a military conference. And I was chatting to a guy who was very senior in the bomb squad. And he was talking to me about how they want everyone to have a voice in that bomb squad, because someone who is very junior might have spotted something that no one else has spotted.

[00:03:34] Ross: And he wanted them to be able to say to him, excuse me, I've seen this, this might impact on what we're about to do, and that just sent shivers down my spine. That if that person doesn't have a voice, the consequences could be horrendous. And that's really made me more curious about the work you've done with the military.

[00:03:53] Ross: And I know there's a paper you you've published recently about team based mindfulness. So maybe that might be a way in [00:04:00] or how can we dive deeper? Help, help me to think how we can dive

[00:04:04] Jutta: mm-hmm .Thank you. so the innovation here really is nothing more than bringing together a really good, solid, wonderful scholarship on individual mindfulness, helping individuals manage stress better. We have a tick in the box for that. We. Don't actually know all that much about how mindfulness based stress reduction helps people perform better.

[00:04:26] Jutta: We don't actually have surprisingly little solid evidence on this, but we know that it makes people feel better and manage stress better from the wellbeing perspective. And so combining that with the equally well researched, but less popularly known scholarship on collective mindfulness collective mindfulness is what I mentioned.

[00:04:46] Karl Weick

[00:04:46] Jutta: the dude Karl Weick at the university of Michigan in the nineties, uh, in investigating what makes, Nu nuclear submarines intensive care units and nuclear power plants function in the face of unanticipated, unexpected pressure reliably. And so he was ex absolutely researching institutions and organizations like, these, bomber patrol people where.

[00:05:10] Jutta: if you make a mistake it's catastrophic and why do these operations make really rarely catastrophic mistakes? What do they do to anticipate stress and respond to stress more effectively than the average Joe or your ordinary organization? and he found surprisingly, lo and behold, organizations that anticipate and respond to stress more reliably, like without losing a, a limb or losing life tend to work as if they were collectively mindful.

[00:05:41] Jutta: And what does that mean? Collectively mindful basically means, right? We say Jon Kabat ZInn's definition of individual mindfulness is paying attention on purpose nonjudgmentally so replicate that to a collective. And what you get is something that looks and sounds a bit like a flock of [00:06:00] birds flying through the sky.

[00:06:01] flock of geese

[00:06:01] Jutta: So a flock of birds, a flock of geese in the autumn flying through the sky are marked by three things. Every one of them aligns their personal direction with the overall direction of the group. So it removes a bit of ego, right? So it's, I subordinate my individual goals to the goals of the collective first characteristic, second characteristic, Each goose can initiate a change of direction, right? So everyone contributes and this is where it becomes relevant to your bomber patrols, right? So it's not just the first one at the front who sets the direction. But if the one in row seven starts to change direction, the others all pay attention to everyone else.

[00:06:45] Jutta: This is where it becomes a definition of mindfulness paying attention. On purpose nonjudgmentally that means everyone not only contributes and subordinates the individual goals for the over goal, but everyone also can change direction if it is the right direction and everybody exchanges knowledge. So that the geese, all they to all the bloody time. So everybody contributes. Everybody aligns individual goals to collective, and everybody can initiate a change of direction because nobody's better than thou and so that means paying attention, not to my internal body sensation, but paying attention to each other. Non-judgmentally that means your voice is just as good as my voice and on purpose.

[00:07:28] Brought together the literature

[00:07:28] Jutta: That means the purpose is the purpose of the collective. It's not the purpose of me individually. And he then found that he categorized. Collective mindfulness. And he called it collective mindfulness. And, and I, I say this because all I've done is to bring the individual mindfulness literature together with a collective mindfulness literature and started to trial training programs that target collective mindfulness as well as individual mindfulness.

[00:07:54] Jutta: and this targeting collective mindfulness is all about training groups of people [00:08:00] to become committed, to anticipate problems as a collective and to become committed, to work together, to learn how to respond to problems or stress collectively. So these it's these two big categories of fact.

[00:08:11] Jutta: And if you, if you remember what we said earlier anticipating unexpected problems becomes much easier and flows much better when we become a really good psychologically safety. And so this is why investing in talking. Getting everybody to speak on a routine basis so that when the stuff hits the fan, everybody does speak up.

[00:08:30] Jutta: So people's vocal chords are oiled during normal operations so that when it really matters and when they say something, "I think we're going in the wrong direction, Sir, or Boss". they are actually trained. They're practiced to speak up

[00:08:47] Ross: and the others are

[00:08:48] Ross: practiced to

[00:08:49] Ross: listen.

[00:08:50] Jutta: right. That's right.

[00:08:51] Ross: So we're, we're cultivating these, these skills of heightened noticing or heightened awareness and the way we process that to help us realize different perspectives or check our own

[00:09:03] Ross: assumptions

[00:09:04] Jutta: Hall of mirrors. Remember hall of mirrors means I reflect back to you. What I see you reflect back to me, what I see that improves the quality of our conversation. It, reinforces. us having a relationship where I have your back, you have my back and we actually might learn something. And so the, the training, the next generation mindfulness training, I think is not just about noticing and being silent, noticing by myself, but noticing proactively, and you cannot do this.

[00:09:34] Poss intro

[00:09:34] Jutta: If you don't have a high quality relationship, you know, I can't just blur about, um, that I think you're doing this incorrectly Ross, you will never listen to me. If you have not got ample practice, this is why it's a practice mindfulness, ample practice of taking turns, ample practice of everyone, having a say, ample practice of, not hogging the screen space.

[00:09:59] Jutta: You know, if you're an [00:10:00] loud person or of speaking up, if you are a quiet person in a team. The team mindfulness training is a lot about, Communicating more, not less getting to know each other on a personal basis. That means getting to know each other's stress triggers, caring, You can train anybody to care about other people in virtually every context. If you get to know the person it's very difficult to discount them. And this is what I learned in my work, working with Hutu and, and Tutsi and of course, bloody hell, post genocide contexts are hard work.

[00:10:30] Jutta: And I'm not saying that just by talking, you can overcome atrocities that are unspeakable, in post genocide context, truth and reconciliation only happens by sharing and by being listened to, and by giving people a voice. And so in a much less extreme context, training people to develop high value conversations where they exchange different perspective is the recipe to anticipate stress being handled collectively.

[00:10:55] Jutta: And then when stress happens to encourage people to talk more, not less,

[00:11:00] Ross: I love the way you are cultivating and encouraging behavioral rehearsal before times

[00:11:05] Ross: get tough,

[00:11:06] Jutta: that's right.

[00:11:07] Ross: cuz it's not the time when you're in the middle of battle to start practicing these

[00:11:11] Jutta: Yeah. That's right. Exactly. This practice it's right. You cannot learn to be mindful when the bullets are flying, hopefully just figuratively. You have to train behavior change. And this is why, my training in behavior change and in, in understanding and analyzing behavior is helpful for mindfulness training. but I have had a lot of pushback from people who say, you know, so maybe this is just psychological safety training. Maybe this is just, you know, you're just doing team building. Absolutely. We are doing team building, but let's remind ourselves why anybody's interested in mindfulness.

[00:11:44] Jutta: We're doing team building. Not because we want to have higher performance, not because we want to get the, you know, millimeter gain and become the Olympic, medalist. We're not doing this because we want to turn people into high performance [00:12:00] machines. We're doing this because we're concerned about people's suffering and people's stress.

[00:12:04] Jutta: And so mindfulness training at any level in organizations is in the interest of managing stress more effectively in getting people to understand the cause of suffering. And to find transformative capacity to overcome suffering Suffering is just an old fashioned, maybe slightly spiritually tinted word for the, the common day experience of me saying I'm stressed outta my mind. So these practices are in the interest of people to become more resilient in the face of stress and nowadays in a post pandemic and post Trumpian and post Brexit world, we all know what it feels like to have dramatic stress being thrown at us from the left field, from out of the blue and so I think more people are motivated to become ready to manage stress more effectively, more strategically, more collectively just makes sense.

[00:12:59] Jutta: Doesn't it. Logically.

[00:13:00] Ross: And, and I find, oh gosh, I find that that leaders sometimes feel very isolated. They feel like they have the weight of this organization on their shoulders. It's all their responsibility. And they feel reluctant to express any form of vulnerability or seek support or say how they're feeling. And often they might do that to avenues outside of their organization.

[00:13:21] Ross: And

[00:13:22] Ross: sometimes that's right. Some of that's right. But to gradually start to, to share it and introduce it to the, the senior team, for example, I think it helps them take those different perceptual positions, realize the, the long term and the short term, it creates more rounded leaders and human beings who are more resilient and.

[00:13:42] Ross: And suffer

[00:13:43] Ross: less.

[00:13:44] Jutta: it's very true.

[00:13:45] Collective mindfulness research is solid

[00:13:45] Jutta: And you know, the collective mindfulness literature is, is solid. This is solid management science. This is not as popular as. relax your body through body scan that has made it into the daily mail and into the cosmopolitan magazine. And that's okay. Right. it's [00:14:00] easy to understand how a body scan can calm.

[00:14:02] Jutta: My nervous system down can relax me. Hence, it's an easy concept to make it into the masses and to get propagated, but that's not the whole story. the collective mindfulness scientific literature tells us that collective mindfulness and this reliability or resilience in the face of collective stress for an organization is driven by leadership and by culture.

[00:14:24] Leadership in 21st Century

[00:14:24] Jutta: and we know, and this is why I teach leadership and how I teach leadership leadership in the twenties. First century is no longer a man with silver, hair and big white teeth and a big jaw standing in front of a group of. People who adore him, telling them where to go leadership in the 21st century looks and sounds like the 21st century, it comes from unexpected spaces. The leader's job is to eek out knowledge and eek out a morsel of information that gives the group competitive advantage. It doesn't necessarily, and in most cases it doesn't come from the leader's brain. And the leader's far sight because the leader doesn't have eyes at the back and eyes on the side to see all the perspectives that are relevant for the choices that we have in the 21st century.

[00:15:22] Jutta: So necessarily the leader's job becomes the job of like somebody taming, reticent, animals to eek out, to get. Their subordinates to trust them, to get their subordinates, to talk to them. It's like, I can tell you something about this. I have three stepchildren to befriend somebody who may or may not have any interest in trusting or wanting to be your friend.

[00:15:47] Jutta: That's the job of a leader because the leader cannot afford to not draw on the whole host of knowledge. And the whole host of variable experience is that the group, the team, the collective [00:16:00] have the 19 year old intern, that 38 year old mother of three, who's just married another man with two other children who knows something about juggling that the leader with this big American jaw and this, you know, fancy suit doesn't understand.

[00:16:17] Jutta: So leadership is about eeking out information and getting people to trust you so that they share freely. What half baked ideas, they might have to get you competitive advantage or to get you to actually survive, let alone being competitive. Does that make sense?

[00:16:32] Ross: Yeah. And I think this is the hook that will attract organizations more. When you talk, start to talk about this is how you can innovate and be creative, and it's a totally different style of, of leadership then what you might imagine? the big Jordan, nice suits, silver, gray hair, handsome dude at the

[00:16:54] Ross: top.

[00:16:54] Jutta: you

[00:16:55] Ross: oh, hilarious.

[00:17:03] Jutta: he thinks I'm joking.

[00:17:05] Ross: yes, but there's a word that's kind of new to my vocabulary heat

[00:17:10] Ross: for

[00:17:11] Jutta: Funny. Isn't it.

[00:17:12] Ross: isn't an interesting word, because if a leader can be heedful and co-create those conditions with the people they work with, where people can go, Hey, what if or what about, or I don't understand, or I'm nervous about this.

[00:17:28] Ross: I think we've lost track, or you seem to be blind to this. Maybe not using language as direct as that, but hopefully,

[00:17:35] Ross: maybe. Yes. I think in, in safer environments, we don't need to frame things with a million frames anymore where the key message gets lost by the time you've presented it, because you've put this golden Rococo frame

[00:17:49] Ross: around it, that people are focusing on the frame and not the context of the message we're back to it.

[00:17:54] Ross: Ain't what you do. It's the

[00:17:55] Interdependence theory

[00:17:55] Jutta: mm-hmm I think that's another thing that, that, I'm becoming increasingly excited [00:18:00] about it's interdependent theory, and this is just the scientific, you know, like academic, my husband always says, well, that's just academic. So academic is useful, but only to a certain extent. but here it is, useful interdependent theory says we are much more interdependent than we think Buddhist contemplative traditions are arguing that our illusion of independence is a big cause of our suffering.

[00:18:24] Jutta: And so we were talking about leadership and culture, driving collective mindfulness, And so if you think about the leader of, uh, collective in mind organizations, that's a little bit like that. A go a goose in that flock of geese, you know, where my own direction is just one versions of directions that we can go to. I align my individual goals with the goals of the collective. I allow others to contribute. I exchange ideas with all sorts of individuals in the organization, and that's a different style, style of leadership, it's less ego driven, but much more relaxing because it's not the weight on my shoulders is much less.

[00:19:00] Jutta: My job is to coordinate and to bring out knowledge.

[00:19:04] Culture

[00:19:04] Jutta: And that's what brings me to the second topic that drives collective mindfulness culture. So leadership is only there because leadership is about shaping a new direction is going into an area there that we haven't kind of gone into. Otherwise it would be management, managing resources, managing people, managing finances.

[00:19:25] Jutta: That's what a manager does. A leader shapes a new path and creates a new culture, creates a new normal and culture is all about the way we do things around here. Consciously or unconsciously. And what we want to do is people develop unconscious automatic habits of listening, of contributing, of aligning their own direction with the collected direction, because overall that's what makes the organization more resilient and more reliable.

[00:19:52] Jutta: And so that then it becomes the culture driving behavior, as opposed to a leader, having to stand in the front and beating people over their head and saying, this is [00:20:00] what you should do. Listen to each other B yes, listen to each other. You can't tell people to listen to each other. You can just get people to practice speaking in terms and taking turns to speak and to listen. And that's why mindfulness and I come back to Ravi Kudesia's brilliant point. Mindfulness in organizations is a meta cognitive practice. it's like, this is where the muscle goes. The practice of doing things mindfully, the more you practice, the bigger your arm muscle gets and the people in the podcast can't see this, but I'm flexing my big biceps here to illustrate how this is.

[00:20:33] Jutta: I know, like this is the way to the beach, right? Uh, to, to say the more I practice my physical muscles, the bigger they get, the more I practice this mental capacity to reflect and to check and to notice whether what I'm doing is actually what I want to be doing.

[00:20:51] Jutta: The bigger that capacity becomes.

[00:20:53] Ross: I took a lot with, with leaders about pressing

[00:20:55] Ross: pause, imagining a big pause button, cuz we're.

[00:20:58] Ross: Working at such pace in organizations. And sometimes we equate pace with this is the value. This is the expectation, and we're not, we're not giving ourselves time to think or even reflect as well. We're just on what people would call the treadmill.

[00:21:15] Jutta: I think that's right. but there's something else. And this is again, I take this from Kudesia's reframing of mindfulness and organizations, and that reflects my experience that Rav says you don't really want to press pause unless it makes sense to press pause. So let's be mindful about mindfulness and I am a big fan of slowing down to speed up and, you know, pressing pauses and making space for myself, but he says don't, press the pause button.

[00:21:45] Jutta: unless, you know, there's a need for it. So you want to press pause when you are overworked or when you have a work habit that's not functioning. Right. That's fine. But don't, shift to, you know, just noticing, you know, the sensations in [00:22:00] your body when you're feeling stressed, unless you are actually feeling stressed or unless it's actually useful to notice something that you haven't seen before and that tends in organizations, you only really want to press the pause button when something has broken down, when something is going wrong, you don't really want people to necessarily do things slower than they normally do it.

[00:22:23] Jutta: If they're doing them correctly. So you don't want to do analysis paralysis and you don't want to introduce doubt into the way we do things around here, unless there's a good reason for it. So just to always pause in the middle of a meeting, uh, might actually lose the momentum. Right.

[00:22:41] Ross: Yeah. Yeah. I hear you.

[00:22:43] Jutta: I'm, I'm being a little bit unfair you and I tend to use the word pause button, for work practice for this tendency, for us to do a lot of things for other people and forget that I am also somebody I also have needs, right.

[00:22:56] Jutta: As what we said at the beginning. So make space for myself, carve out a bit of distance between

[00:23:02] Jutta: me and all the tasks that I have. That's useful.

[00:23:04] Ross: And I, I think, I think the pause button, sometimes you might pause at the wrong point. It's, it's kind of practicing using the pause button to

[00:23:11] Ross: realize yeah.

[00:23:12] Ross: Is that useful now? Maybe not move on or pressing pause now, because I think something's just happened that I really need to reflect on or pay attention to, but I agree.

[00:23:22] Ross: Not, not just pausing every moment and it, and it becomes something more of a dramatic effect then,

[00:23:28] Leadership training in individual and collective mindfulness

[00:23:28] Jutta: Yeah. And that's a, a really, almost I hesitate to say it, but, I, I'm getting a lot of energy from the people that I work with and the people that I train in mindfulness, at Cranfield, I still train about 300 senior government officials in mindfulness through the project leadership program, that the cabinet office runs.

[00:23:46] Jutta: And so we've now over the last five, six years trained well, over 2000 senior government officials in individual and collective mindfulness, and many of them come to Cranfield on this training course as part of their project leader program leadership [00:24:00] course. And they go ha a day of mindfulness. Let's get ready for eating the raisin.

[00:24:04] Jutta: Right. Let's get ready to. Walk and look at the colors of the puddles. And then we talk about what you and I have just talked about. And then there's a bit of aha moment and a bit of a surprise and a bit of relief, right? Because they're going okay, baby. I'm not completely wasting my time. Maybe there's something here that could be really relevant.

[00:24:20] Jutta: And they say this because much mindfulness training that gets sent to organizations is a little bit like this awful story that my dear friend Mara Gullens, who writes for mind magazine, talked about. She said, she was working for an organization that was about to merge with another organization and everybody was anxious and everybody was stressed out of their mind about what would happen to their jobs, what would happen to their functions and the company thought they did a really good thing by getting a mindfulness trainer to come in and they spent a day eating raisins, mindfully and looking at the colors of the puddles in order to get ready for the merger. So they had a day of relaxation, but the stress and the suffering that was about to happen because of the merger was completely untouched. By that day of mindfulness, the pause of the relaxation did nothing to address the cause of what mindfulness was needed to manage that stress better.

[00:25:21] Jutta: Mindfulness I'm repeating myself is only useful if it's in the interest of managing stress more effectively, and at workplaces, stress is often social because my to-do list is too big is one thing, and I can do something about it, but there's much bigger causes of stress in workplaces.

[00:25:39] Jutta: And if we don't shift mindfulness training, to address social aspects of stress. People not talking about conflicts of interest, openly

[00:25:48] Jutta: people not reflecting back to them, what their choices really are. Then we have no chance of becoming better at managing stress collectively in organizations. Then mindfulness has no real [00:26:00] benefit.

[00:26:00] Ross: Yeah. And I think part of that reputational damage is things like that. We're having a merger, let's have a day looking at raisins and noticing puddles. It's like for the love of God,

[00:26:10] Jutta: I dunno. And then let's, let's be sent back into the, the roaring fire of the merger. Right?

[00:26:17] Jutta: You've had a day of mindfulness

[00:26:19] Jutta: get on with it.

[00:26:20] Ross: so frustrating. because that day could have been used to use mindfulness to, to reflect

[00:26:26] Jutta: anticipate and

[00:26:27] Jutta: respond.

[00:26:27] Ross: and share what's going on in your own mind.

[00:26:30] Takeaway

[00:26:30] Ross: But I wonder, could we move on to a takeaway? Is there a takeaway you to.

[00:26:35] Ross: I mean, I think we've had several already. I think there's the, German phrase about you also matter,

[00:26:41] Jutta: Yeah.

[00:26:42] Ross: that's it?

[00:26:43] Ross: Um, but is there anything else that comes to

[00:26:45] Ross: mind?

[00:26:46] Jutta: well, yes, my big aim, the fire under my belly in my work. Is to help people see more of the transformative potential that mindfulness has. And I am with Jon Kabat-Zinn who wrote 10, 11 years ago about the fact that MBSR and mindfulness based stress reduction based on using the anchor to become mindfulness is, but one of a possibly infinite number of means to bring mindfulness into this world. And perhaps the, the thing that we haven't mentioned that I think is really important is when you read Eastern contemplative traditions, they are highly altruistic in their aspiration. They're very much focused on the interdependence of what I experience with how you experience reality and how that is a little bit lost in the current incarnation of mindfulness.

[00:27:38] Jutta: when people think mindfulness, they think self

[00:27:42] Jutta: help,

[00:27:42] Jutta: whereas the transformative potential of mindfulness is in its power to change leadership and culture in society. And to help us see that we are much more interconnected and that we benefit from seeing ourselves as interconnected. And that's my aspiration to see mindfulness as [00:28:00] more than that thing with the breathing

[00:28:02] Ross: Beautiful Jutta thanks for joining me on the show. it's truly a joy to hear you speak. You are such a creative thinker and an inspirational force for me. So I'm so grateful for you coming on the show and

[00:28:19] Ross: thank you so much. And it's a privilege to know

[00:28:22] Jutta: it's a privilege to know you and I could spend hours and hours on podcasts talking to you and about the amazing work that you do. So that's why I'm so glad to spend time with you. Thank you.

[00:28:34] Ross: That's it. P Super is the third and final part in the bag. Thanks so much to UJA for coming on the show and for being such a fascinating and inspirational guest. If you like this episode or the podcast, Please? Could you do three things? Number one, share it with one other person.

[00:28:55] Ross: Number two, subscribe and give us a five star review whatever platform. And number three, share the heck out of it on the socials. This will help us reach more people with stuff that could be useful.

[00:29:07] Ross: Next week I've got a fresh treat for you. It's part one of my chat with Mike Jones, the founder of Better Happy. I love to hear from you and you can get in touch at People soup dot pod gmail dot. On Twitter, you'll find us at People Soup Pod on Instagram at People dot Soup, and on Facebook at People Soup Pod.

[00:29:28] Ross: thanks to Andy Glen for his spoon magic and Alex Engelberg for his vocals, most of all, dear listener, thanks to you. Look after yourselves. Peace supers and bye for now. It's a park behind our new house the informal name for it is the, parkade Los patos, the

[00:29:45] Ross: the duck park.

[00:29:46] Jutta: that interesting?

[00:29:47] Ross: But the there's also geese there and they quite often just fly over us in the V formation, making such chatting noise as it's like lads and lass.

[00:29:58] Ross: Will you pipe down a [00:30:00] bit?

[00:30:01] Jutta: they're constantly exchanging information. They're constantly chatting. Hey, what's going on? Yeah, yeah. Yeah