This one's probably gonna be, I would say, a little bit different

to how we've done in some podcasts.

It's just gonna be us two chatting.

about a previous experience that you've had,

Yeah, so I think the disclaimer on this one is that I do

talk about, uh, child loss.

you know, I recognize that these things may be triggering for some people,

and I guess I just want everyone to know who's listening to this, that.

I've actually done a lot of work with a couple of different psychologists,

and I also have the blessing of my wife to talk about our experience, I

guess with our journey with pregnancy.

And I understand, you know, people who are pregnant or trying to get pregnant

or have been in a situation where they have, um, pregnancy hasn't haven't gone to

term, uh, that some of these conversations could be triggering, however.

I feel that as men, we don't talk about this stuff a lot enough.

I think generally speaking, we probably don't talk about this enough.

Yeah.

And um, yeah, this is my story and you know, I might cry.

I do get quite emotional when I do talk about this, but I guess I just want

everybody to know that I am in a good

place and you make a good point knowing your story.

Before we get to it, and I've written down here how this relates to building, I

think you summed it up when you said that.

Pretty much men don't talk about it.

And our industry is predominantly men.

And while it's not, we're not talking about a membrane or a window or

building science, say, this still is just important as our industry.

And we've, I think that you've, you're definitely a leader in this industry.

So to be able to get this stuff out of, out there, um, and say

it's okay, and you can continue on, um, I think it's really important.

So, Hamish, tell me, tell me about your story.

You start where you wanna start.

So in about 2019, the start of 2019, we got pregnant.

Now we already had a, we already had Darcy.

Darcy was I think two, two and a half years old.

And, um, you know, it seemed like the right time for us to have a baby.

We had had a miscarriage before we got pregnant, uh, or the second time and.

There was some things that weren't quite feeling right

for Lucy when she was pregnant.

She'd already been pregnant before and she's like, oh, something

just doesn't feel quite right.

And, you know, I guess I was just expecting, you know, that when she went

in for a checkup that, you know, we'd, we'd had another miscarriage and I,

and I distinctly remember sitting in.

The IGA car park and I was staring at the bakery.

I just, all of this is crystal clear in my head and um, I remember

Lucy saying There's two heartbeats, and for a second I'm like, what do

you mean there's two heartbeats?

Like I just, you know, you don't expect.

That to happen.

And uh, as it turned out, we were pregnant with twins and this was

at about seven or eight weeks.

So at that stage, you know, there were, they both had their own sack.

That in itself was like a massive thing.

It's like, holy shit, you know, we've got one, we're about to have three.

And like for me, as the problem solver that I am, like my brain's going.

Every different direction of, oh, we gotta get a new car.

Is the house gonna be big enough?

We've gotta get an extension.

And I remember the time, um, from Maxo had started the design of our home.

Yep.

And, uh, I'm like, mate, you better hurry up because shit's about to get real.

So,

so just where you're at, you with your business at that point, where are you at?

Like, wh what, what does your business look like at that point?

Uh, so I think we've got like four or five, you know, four or five

people working in the business.

We had an admin staff, we had an office.

Uh, we probably had three projects on the go at, at, at that moment.

Yeah.

So, you know, kind of starting that trajectory of, of building the business.

Yeah.

And we'd.

Would just literally switch the business to, you know, focusing on

high performance and passive house.

So like lots and lots going on at that particular

time.

And this is pre Covid too?

Pre covid.

So, and did you say 2019?

2019. So everything was about to just like the whole world was

about to be thrown on its head.

Not just this, but also.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That time is covid your, your business is about to explode.

And, and maybe I'll tell the story first.

Yeah.

But

Covid was actually an interesting time and I, and I think almost

a blessing in some ways for us.

Um, so yeah, we, uh, were pregnant with twins.

Yeah.

And, um, you know, I'd like, I could have get in new car, I gotta start looking

at cars and all that kind of stuff.

And then I think in about 15 weeks loose was starting to feel a bit.

Funny.

Yeah.

And no one really knew what was happening.

Like they were testing, you know, the, you know, measuring the fluid inside

the facts and all that kind of stuff.

And then, um, I think at about, I. 16 weeks or 17 weeks, Lucy had some pain.

So we actually ended up going into the er, like the emergency room.

Yeah.

And um, I remember again, you know, all, all of these moments

for me are like so crystal clear, like as if they just happened.

Excuse me, guys, we're about to get a little bit, you know, gory, but

you know, they actually do a swab and they test for amniotic fluid.

Yeah.

And you know, it's not something that we thought about.

Yeah.

And obviously amniotic fluid is what sits inside.

The, it kind of keeps them floating.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

It's what's inside the s the baby, I think.

So they test for that to see if there's a, a leak.

Yeah.

Okay.

Right.

Did doctors or anything seem concerned at the time, or is it kind of feeling you?

No, we had a checkup, had ultrasound, um, and everything seemed right and they

go, look, we're just gonna do this check.

And I, and I remember Lucia and I were having a chat about something

random, and then the nurse came in and sort of dropped the news that.

Um, we've found amniotic foot.

Amniotic foot, and um, you know, your heart just sinks, like just that.

Now what?

Unknown.

Now what?

Unknown.

And you know, I've, we'd both sort of gone through this mental

transition of, you know, our life is gonna drastically change.

And you know, at that time when you were having two, another two boys and I.

We'd started even thinking about going to Costa Rica and taking the boys Yeah.

To go for three or four months and you know, hang out on the beach and whatever.

You know, these are all the things that you kinda gee yourself up for.

Uh, maybe it's a way of sort of getting through it and seeing

positives in then obviously twinge is incredibly positive after I kind

of got over that initial shock.

Did you know at that point that that was a bad thing or did you Yeah.

Oh, what's that mean?

We were told Lucy knew straight away.

Yeah.

Okay.

And then she explained to me, yeah.

And then.

It was like, fuck uh, what does all this mean?

And how many weeks were you at this time?

15 or 16 weeks.

Okay.

Yep.

We ended up going home that night 'cause they couldn't do anything.

We, we went in for more ultrasounds and they were measuring the fluid

inside, but, and both sack had enough fluid, like wasn't abnormal.

Yeah.

Okay.

So nothing was abnormal.

It was just a leak somewhere.

It was a leak, yeah.

We went through this dance for about a month and that's scary.

I. Like we didn't know what was going on.

Like, you know, test every week where Lucy was getting blood, constant blood tests.

She was, 'cause what they, what they do is they test for infection.

Yeah.

So constantly getting her bloods checked and like, this is

obviously incredibly stressful 'cause you, at any time you dunno.

Every, every

swab is like, uh, are we gonna, is this good?

Is this bad?

This is this day by day.

Well, I mean,

yeah.

And that's the interesting thing because like they kept measuring

the fluid and, and that was 'cause fluid rejuvenates, right?

Yeah.

And we were told that

babies are viable at 26 weeks.

Yeah.

Okay.

You know, and quite often twins are born early.

Yep.

So we're just like.

We gotta make it to 26 weeks, we're gonna do this.

So it's nine

weeks

you are looking, how do we get there?

We're gonna do this right?

Yeah.

And I think about eight or nine weeks, everything was still looking okay.

And everyone was like, look, we dunno what's gonna happen here.

And, and we, we actually ended up going into the doctor's, um, one

Friday and um, there was another scan and I remember, so I wasn't there.

Lucy was there.

And I remember getting a phone call saying, uh.

One of the, so Zach and Seb, so, um, Zach's amniotic fluid sac,

like, had drastically decreased.

Okay.

So obviously we're seeing a loss of fluid in that.

Yeah.

And something has to happen.

Yeah.

So we both went into the hospital.

I, I, I left work and went in and met Lucy in the hospital.

And we were, um, we're essentially, we are faced with.

Like a pretty, this is 19 weeks and five or six days or

something at this point in time.

So, and uh, 20 weeks is classified as stillborn.

20 weeks before is discouraged.

So, so anything before 20 weeks, and I'm gonna touch on this

too, because everyone's response to these things differently.

Someone could have an horrible experience and lose a child at three weeks.

Yeah.

And have an incredibly.

Terrible response to that.

And look, I will tell our story as we go along of, of, of when we lost

the twins because unfortunately, you know, um, that's what happened with us.

I will sort of, you know, break that story now.

Um, so we, we were actually faced with our options were we could terminate Yeah.

One child and then have the opportunity I. For the other one to be.

Okay.

Yeah.

So we went home with that on that Friday.

And with, with that question, were they, were they giving you a option of

like, it will probably terminate itself.

'cause doctors are very matter of fact.

They don't, they, they're all about the

risk.

So we, so just a massive shout out.

Like we had incredible doctors throughout this whole, uh, journey and, you

know, in a really shitty situation.

Like the care that we got was incredible.

Yeah.

So basically they're like, this twin won't survive.

So your options are like he, he might just stay there.

Yeah.

The problem is if he keeps growing and then your waters break, then you've

got much higher risk of infection and you've got a greater chance of the

other one coming out at the same time.

Yeah.

So we went home with that like decision that we were gonna make over the weekend.

'cause look, all these things, right, these are so unpredictable.

You never know what's gonna happen in this situation.

And that's where we kept getting told, we're like, we

don't know what's gonna happen.

We don't know what's gonna happen.

Every case is different.

Yeah.

Heavy conversations to have over that weekend.

I think we'd almost landed on like, I know I landed on it really quickly.

Yeah.

Like I know what I'd want.

Yeah.

Mine is better than none.

Yeah.

And you've also got Lucy to worry about

too.

Oh, Lucy to worry about too.

And I'll get to that.

Yeah, because that gets pretty heavy too.

Um, and also bearing in mind that we have a two and a half year old at home.

Yeah.

You know, that, that is sort of wondering what's happening.

He knows that we're pregnant.

He knows that there's twins coming.

He knows that there's, his brothers are there.

Like, you know, Darcy's always been a pretty aware kid and even

at two and a half, like he knew.

Shit was going on.

He knew that something was up.

And I remember Lucy coming out was at nighttime.

I remember Lucy coming out and she's like, I don't feel well.

Something's wrong.

Yep.

And I just remember my heart like sinking.

And we ended up going into the hospital and Lucy got checked in.

And, you know, everything was kind of stable, right?

So they're doing ultrasounds and they're checking nothing.

Not much has changed.

And um, I ended up going home 'cause I didn't go home and look after Darcy.

And um, I remember waking up to a phone call from the nurses being

really calm and basically say.

Uh,

just take your time coming in, um, because there's been, so, something's

happened and, um, Lucy's okay, but we really need you to come in, but just

drive slowly and, um, and, and come in.

I remember walking into the hallway and I was outside the hall and I was told that

Lucy had given birth to one of the boys.

And I won't go into the detail of, of what happened 'cause it is quite triggering.

I.

But Lucy had given birth to Zach by the time that I had got in there and um, and

Zach was the one that had the lower fluid.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So Zach, Zach decided that, you know, he wasn't gonna, he wasn't gonna make it.

So he, um, yeah, he was born, um, obviously didn't survive.

Uh, and you just bear in mind that we're at 19 weeks and five days.

It's just

brutal in itself.

It's really brutal in itself.

And I, and I'll get to why that's brutal in itself in a second.

Um, and this is probably some of the, the, the really tough things that, you

know, Lucy and I have kind of navigated over, you know, particularly in that

early time, you know, that happened and then Lucy is recovering and, um, but

Lucy is okay at this time and there's really great support from all the, for

all the doctors and nurses and, um, you know, again, at this point in time.

Everything else is fine.

Yeah.

With the other one, with Seb, there was still a chance, still

a chance that he could be.

Okay.

And were they saying that most likely he'd be okay or he's still at risk?

No, highly risk.

Okay.

Huge risk.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

And, and, and you know what, statistically quite unlikely, but you hold onto hope.

There's always, there's always been.

There's always been, um, the problem is when you give birth right, you're

obviously opening up a lot of, like a pathway for germs and stuff Yeah, yeah.

To get in.

So there's a much higher risk of infection during that time.

Uh, so I spent the day with loose, obviously it's pretty horrific.

And, you know, Lucy's parents were, were down and my parents are here

as well, helping look after Daron.

Like I remember going home, you know.

Tom, Julie's husband was at Mom and Dad's place.

And, you know, just, just the support around us, you know,

all, all along through the whole thing was really incredible.

So I went home and Luc was in the hospital 'cause there's not

much, much, much I could do.

And ended up getting a phone call at about one 30 in the morning from, from,

so it's like 24 hours after Almost.

Yeah.

From Lucy saying, oh, I just wanna let you know that my waters have just broken.

Yeah.

Okay.

Uh, and she said, look, there's no point coming in.

Everything's really stable at the moment.

There's nothing you can do.

So stay home with Darcy for now and just come in in the morning.

So I did come in the morning and, you know, just chatting with the,

with the midwife who was incredible.

I can't remember her name, but she was unbelievable, you

know, unbelievable support.

We actually made the decision.

This was a lot easier for me being quite pragmatic about things and

knowing where things are gonna end.

But we actually made the decision at that point after Lucy's

waters had broken to induce.

Yeah.

Because it was not happening naturally.

Yeah.

And at that point, did you, were you still holding onto hope or you, you knew

like, as think that was termination?

Nah,

that, that was as soon as the, soon as the waters broke,

there's no, there's no chance.

Like we're at 20 weeks.

Yeah, she six weeks left.

So, like I heard of some babies surviving at 2324.

Yeah.

But I knew then, uh, probably sooner than Lucy, that that was it.

Yeah.

I think the most horrific part of this is that, you know, you see your wife who you

love dearly going through labor, which.

Gen, like it's fucking stressful for anyone who's got, like, I'll buy.

Yeah, I'm super

excited, super pumped.

Labor is stressful, man.

There's nothing you can do except be a punching bag or a someone to support

or whatever, like, and we're watching a TV Obvious just off track with a TV

show called The Pit at the moment, and it's, it's practically like 24 hours.

Like it's a, it's fictitious.

The, um, last episode was on about childbirth.

And I, yeah, like they were very graphic from that end.

I was like, no chance.

I'm down that end.

Nicole.

I'll tell you what, um, I've been through all of the stuff

and it's fucking incredible.

Oh, human body's insane.

Oh my goodness.

Um, insane.

Um, I know that's a bit off track, but No, that's okay.

Going, now going.

So back to, so Lucy has been induced and is in labor.

Yeah.

Right.

So it actually comes on pretty quickly.

Yeah.

Right.

So we also gotta remember that her body is, this is not at the time where

her body wants to, it's kind of wild.

So have a baby.

Why am I in labor while labor?

Exactly.

So.

We have labor, we have, he's born obviously doesn't survive.

Yeah.

Right.

Because we, and we expected that, right?

Yeah.

And that's pretty fucking traumatic.

Yeah.

Right.

And it was almost, I dunno, from my side, this kind of relief at that

point in time that, okay, this is over.

Now we start, now we move on.

Did you feel prepared because you, um, we constantly talking about.

Going, looking off, uh, past experiences to, to be better.

I know it was only probably 24 hours before that you've had the experience.

Did you feel more prepared because of that?

I think the fact that it was building up for five or six weeks, you

know, you're kind of, you knew the, statistically the chances were quite low.

Um, so you're kind of preparing yourself for whatever, but

you're still holding on for hope.

Yeah.

So, um, just probably getting back to the point of when Lucy gave birth.

Now there's two births that happen, Matt.

Yeah.

So there's birth and then there's a birth of the Yeah.

Right now, because Lucy wasn't, her body wasn't ready for this.

Yeah.

Peter was shut.

Oh.

Uh, and didn't give birth to the placenta.

Now you plant an organ, it has blood pumping to it.

Yeah.

And you know, at that point in time, you know, it's fine.

Right.

Yeah.

So, uh, I won't go into too much traffic detail of, of all the things that, you

know, they sort of try to do, but, um, I remember looking at loose and, you know,

all of a sudden she's sort of starting to look really sleepy and she's like, white.

Yeah.

Right.

So you do remember like.

Blood's still pumping to the uterus.

Uh, to the placenta.

Um, that's now shut.

It's now shut.

So essentially her uterus is filling up with blood.

She's essentially bleeding to death.

Yeah.

And um, I called the midwife in and she's like, oh, okay.

Shit.

And then at outta nowhere it was as if someone got a bucket,

and this is quite graphic.

Someone got a bucket and just threw a bucket of blood on the floor.

Yeah.

So Lucy Hemorrhaged.

Yeah.

And then, uh, I don't know if you've been in a hospital room

before, but if you pull the.

Phone out of the hook.

It sets off everything.

An alarm.

Yeah.

Now the reason why Lucy got to that point is 'cause someone had actually

gone into theater before her with the same kind of thing to remove the percent.

It's not uncommon for this to happen.

Yeah.

Okay.

So Lucy had to wait.

Yeah.

So we're like 10, 15 minutes, right?

Yeah.

Or no?

Fuck.

I don't know.

I dunno how long it was, but, and next thing I know, there's

like 10 people in the room.

Yeah, right.

There's blood all over the floor and I'm getting pushed to the side

'cause there's doctors everywhere.

Yeah.

And then Lucy just gets taken away.

Yep.

And I'm left in this room with the midwife and there's blood everywhere.

I'm literally thinking to myself, I can't not go home with her.

And when and when?

Doctors, I. Doctors and nurses, they're usually really calm and

when you see panic on them, you know, fucking shit's not right.

Do you know what

everyone just, you know, they go into their job.

They go into their job, right?

Yeah.

So they go into their job mode and everyone was really quite calm, right?

Yeah.

So, but there are lots of people in there and I, I do remember some people

saying, it's all good, you know, we've got analysis's going into theater.

It's everything fine.

And then I remember being taken out into the waiting room.

Remember, like, uh, this is like 24 hours of pretty traumatic shit.

And I remember having a chat with the midwife and you know, we're just

trying to have small talk and whatever.

And then I hear this like, code white, code white to the theater

code, white to the theater.

I remember seeing like a look on her face that wasn't great.

Yes, that's when you saw the panic.

And I said to her, what the fuck is going on?

Don't lie to me.

Tell me what's going on right now.

'cause no way I can go home without her.

Yeah.

And she's like, they're just asking for more blood.

She's obviously in a

blood transfusion.

Yeah.

Okay.

That happened twice.

Yep.

And when you don't know about something and you wanna know everything, it's very

hard to be in a situation where you've got you, you're outta control where

you, you're in a lifestyle where you're in so control of everything you do.

Yeah.

And not having control sucks.

It sucks.

And then, look, I, um, ended up.

Just pacing and yeah, remember this beautiful doctor came in, like beautiful

person came in and she took me aside.

She said, everything's fine.

Yeah.

You know, Lucy's fine.

We had to give her a couple of blood transfusions, but she's fine.

She's recovery.

You can go and see her.

And I just remember going in and seeing her.

And

was that just the most like, like relaxed you to ever sort of felt?

Oh, it was a massive relief.

Well obviously then you, you've got that relief that your partner's fine, but then.

The reality just kicks in again too, of like

what you're facing.

So did just, so to go back, did you kind of feel like you forgot

about the twins for a second?

I did.

Yeah.

So you forgot like it was just a whole nother.

Thing.

It's hollow.

Yeah.

And that's okay as well.

Yeah, yeah, totally.

Right.

You know, you kind of go into like preservation mode, right?

Yeah.

You're just like, okay, so what can we control here?

Um, can't control what happened with the twins.

That's done now.

We lost the twins within 24 hours of each other, and they were, one

was 19 day, 19 weeks, and five days while it was 19 days and six days.

Yeah.

Technically miscarriage.

Yeah.

Now, I'll tell you right now that they were human beings.

Because I saw them, Lucy held them.

I couldn't do it because I, I just, I couldn't.

And, and that's okay.

I think about it now and Lucy did say, I think you might regret it.

And I said, I don't think I will.

And even to this day, I don't regret it.

But I looked at them and they were human beings, you know,

perfect little human beings.

Five fingers, five toes, nose, eyes, whatever.

And, um.

That was enough for you.

It was enough for me.

Now, you know, I, you know, we were really fortunate that we had the most

amazing, um, support network around us.

And I'll, maybe I'll fast forward to a couple of things.

As you know, Lu was in hospital for a little bit.

We had the most amazing pastoral care nurse.

Now, I'm not a religious person, but man, she was awesome.

And I still tell this story.

For to this day when she, when she explained grief to me.

And you know, if you imagine a bookshelf, yeah.

And there's a book on there that says grief.

And then as you move through life, the book is still there.

Obviously I'm quite emotional about it now.

Still.

But everything around it has been filled in with all these other

things that make up your life.

Yeah, and I think this is one of the reasons why I wanted to talk about it.

I think it's important that, you know, life is not linear.

And you know, fast forward to Phoenix who's the most incredible

kid and he is such a gift.

And you know, I know that when he was born, I had the most

amazing connection with him.

Uh, probably more so because of the history Yeah.

Of what had happened.

And, you know, fast forward now to where we sit right now where we're

actually pregnant with our third child.

And it's a girl.

It's a girl having a little girl, which I'm incredibly excited about.

And, and this is all relevant.

I'm bringing this up because, um.

I guess I just wanted to talk about how, if you imagine that bookshelf

and that book of grief there, we've also got all the experiences

I've had, we've had as a family.

I've got all the support of all the people that were around me at the time.

I. And massive shout out to the guys from Riverview Cafe.

Like they didn't have to do anything for me, except I did not

pay for a thing for two weeks.

Yeah.

When I went in there.

How and how far, like, it's

such a small thing and how it, it's like,

yeah, it's incredible.

But you know, like the story about.

Uh, getting, having a girl now is that I thought we were done

like we did IVF for Phoenix for, for a range of reasons and we

actually had embryos left over.

Yeah.

See?

Right.

So, um, I thought we were done.

And Lucy, middle of last year said, I feel that with Phoenix

coming back, we've given one of the twins an opportunity to come back.

To come back.

Yeah.

And we have four embryos and I actually want to see.

If the other twin I see, he goes, she goes, I still feel him.

Yeah.

And I want to give him an opportunity to come back too and.

Uh, I'm not saying how can you argue with that?

Because I think deep down inside for me, getting pregnant with twins actually

created space for three kids anyway.

Yeah.

Like I never thought I would, but I was content with two,

but it created space for three.

So the idea of having three wasn't I. Wrong.

It felt right.

It, it, it feels so right now it's gonna be fucking chaos,

but it's, you know, feel, right.

But just getting back to the whole Covid thing where you're saying that,

you know, the kind of world explodes, you know, that the world exploded.

I'll tell you right now, COVID was nothing.

You're kind of prepared.

Covid was nothing compared to the shit that we went through the year before.

You know, fucking bring it on because we can handle this.

Yeah.

And you know, Lucy and I did a lot of.

Conversa, like a lot of talking, a lot of like, it took me a while to really,

I guess, address it from through a couple of different psychologists,

and I feel I'm all right now.

Lucy did an incredible amount of work with her therapist as well.

But yeah, look, traumatic things happen in life.

Fantastic things happen in life, and I think at the end

of the day, that's just life.

So I've got one question 20, 30 years from now.

Your three children are looking at having children and having

children and they listen to this.

What do you want them to take away from this?

That's a great question.

Life is very unpredictable.

Yeah.

And as much as I like to be in control of things, I think that

unpredictability of life is probably also what makes it so beautiful.

And I think if I think about Phoenix and you know, his name is

pretty relevant as well, you know?

Phoenix rising outta the ashes of a really shit situation.

I think that you need to take a chance in life.

Yeah.

But don't let it hold

you back.

Don't let it hold you back.

No.

Yeah.

Hamish, thank you very much for sharing that.

Um, it's not often I'm left speechless and you've shared parts

of this story with me before.

I think that, um, for you to come from where you are, I didn't know you

at that point to where you are now.

Like you've done an incredible amount of work that you should be super proud of.

I. Don't really know your wife, but I'm gonna speak on behalf of her.

I bet you she's super proud of where you've come from to where you are now.

Yeah.

But your family and friends and everyone.

Um, I've got here s support written down.

Uh, I think people, uh, you again created that support.

It just didn't come because, uh.

You are lucky.

So there are avenues, I think if people triggered by this as well.

Just again, there are support networks out there.

Uh, please don't be afraid to reach out to those um people.

Yep.

Um, I'm sure we'll probably touch on this a little bit more.

I've got some stuff here now about questions about this in the future and

kids and things like that, especially, uh, since you're about to have a third.

And I think we touched on that another time, but, um, is there

anything else you wanna add?

Just

one last thing, you know, the streak, um.

Lula Hui through this whole thing.

I'll always be in awe

of how she conducted herself through this whole thing.

'cause it is so much different.

Like I was upset at the idea of, you know, losing twins.

She physically had them in her Okay.

Birth to them and was connected with them on a whole different level to

what I was, and to see her be the person that she's now and um, how

she's navigated through that really terrible time, uh, is pretty incredible.

So yeah.

Ham, thank you for sharing.

Thanks mate.

Thank you buddy.