Greetings, friends. My name is Jess McLean, and I'm here to provide you with some blueprints

of disruption. This weekly podcast is dedicated to amplifying the work of activists, examining

power structures, and sharing the success stories from the grassroots. Through these discussions,

we hope to provide folks with the tools and the inspiration they need to start to dismantle

capitalism, decolonize our spaces, and bring about the political revolution that we know

we need. Okay, so earlier you would claim that like it's illegal to occupy or to march on

the street. So here's the thing, we allow it, we give you that, we use our discretion to

allow it. actually, it is still there's not. not allowed to march on the street. Also, it's

critical infrastructure. is downtown Toronto. There's hospitals. There's a lot of major roads

that use roads. Street is a major throwaway to other hospitals. What is the legal basis

of this? Because it's not supported by the criminal code. It's the highway traffic. That's if you're

blocking the road. It's not if you're like... It doesn't matter. No, if you're moving. is.

Listen, just get on the road. Just get on the sidewalk, guys. I know it's probably going

to on the sidewalk. You're spread yourselves out. You're going have to tell your people.

What you just heard was our next guest Ben Nolan talking to a Toronto police officer during

a vigil to honour five Al Jazeera journalists murdered by Israel in Gaza. He's telling Ben

that the ability to march in the streets of Toronto is entirely up to police. He cites

the Highway Traffic Act. That isn't true, but this kind of interaction is becoming quite

typical. In fact, Ben's got a laundry list of apparent policy changes at TPS that no one

wants to admit to, but that are certainly being deployed on protesters. He's witnessed them

firsthand. And like many of us, he's frustrated with the lobsided reporting that parrots the

police bullshit and maligns the Palestinian Solidarity Movement. Well, one particular media

spot with the chief of police got him really riled up. justifiably, so he wrote a piece

about it for The Grind. And just to come full circle a little bit, after we recorded the

discussion you're about to hear, Ben let me know that he was actually inspired by something

he heard The Grind's publisher and editorial director, Dave Gray Donald, say in one of our

interviews with him back in October 2024. It was about taking responsibility for reporting

from within the movements themselves. To not leave it up to mainstream media to represent

these very important moments, particularly when it comes to dealing with the police. It

felt good knowing our show played a tiny role in all of that. The piece Ben wrote is great.

It's linked in the show notes, along with some other resources that are part of the discussion.

We also link related episodes there. If you're really up for binge listening, you can also

check out the playlists we've got posted up to our sub stack. I want to thank T for maintaining

that space so well for us. Please check it out. Now let's meet Ben. Good morning, Ben. Hi,

Jessalyn. How's it going? It's good. I'm glad to have you back in the studio. It's been a

while. I had to scroll way back. So you will have to reintroduce yourself to our friends

here. Hi, my name is Benjamin Nolan. I'm an activist and organizer based in North Toronto.

I've worked with a bunch of the different orgs that have been involved in the Palestine Solidarity

Movement, but I'm not representing or speaking for any of them in this interview or with the

article that we're talking about. I will say that my kind of organizational home right now

is a little collective called the Mutual Aid Direct Action North Toronto Collective, Mad

Ant Collective. can find us on Instagram, although we're trying to really focus on in-person stuff

so we don't have a huge online presence but we'll post a link to that but you know you're

gonna have to come back in the studio with your comrades there and talk about Stitchin' Bitchin'

Bitchin' Stitchin' because yeah we need more mutual aid episodes like real how-to's because

it's amazing what people can just get up and start doing on their own but You didn't list

one of the reasons I brought you into the studio today. You didn't say you were a journalist

or a writer. I mean, you may not consider yourself as such, but you just finished writing something

for The Grind in their summer issue. Please support The Grind. um They do some great work

and Ben, now you are amongst that great work. Although it's maddening. I usually don't call

people in here for like really uplifting articles that they've written. Although you give us

some tools. It's about the Toronto police. The Toronto police chief went on a radio show

and Ben, you did just really a great job of not, it wasn't just a commentary on how poorly

he did on that show or the lies that he told, but it opens up so many em cans of worms around

police violence at protests, project resolutes, you know, the collusion between Toronto council,

police and media. whether intentional or not, it's intentional. So let's kind of unpack

some of that. But as you stated at the beginning, you knew the police chief was going to call

into talk radio shows, so you weren't going to miss it. I mean, a friend of mine who monitors

police socials uh noticed them shouting out that this was going to happen. I forget whether

it was Chief Demkew's account or whether it was like one of the other TPS. uh, like public

relations accounts, but they'd shouted out that this was going to happen and that people should

prepare their questions and call in. I mean, I'd imagine that they thought, you know, news

talk 10 10, you know, it's an audience that like judging from the other questions that

got through is mostly, you know, like kind of, think probably lower rich suburban driver types.

was lots of questions about like, I don't know how dastardly pedestrians are in. when you're

trying to turn right and they get in your way. The Nimbies love them, right? Yeah, yeah,

yeah. So I mean, think I think Demke thought that this is going to be a very friendly venue

for him to open himself up to public questions. And I think a lot of us took an independent

interest in, know, in seeing how this is going to play out and in trying to call in. I mean,

I tried to call in, I got screened out by the screener. I wondered that and I teased you

about it because there's a Ben quoted at the end of your article. I'm like, you didn't even

try. You couldn't have used it. I mean, that's not me. have not, you know, yet and thankfully

been subjected to the neon neck technique. But I do actually know who that is. And I mean,

I think that he's fine with my letting you know who it is. It's Adam Melanson, who was attacked

by the cops, I think, in I think it was November of 2023 at um a protest. And, you know, it's

funny, he told me, cause I reached out to him, you know, once I knew that I was going to be

writing this article to ask him about like what his experience was of getting on the air. He

actually had tried to call in under his real name and gave the screener his real question

and immediately got told to kind of take a hike politely. um So then he tried to call back

again, told them his name was Ben and... said that his question was going to be about how

TPS can hire top talent considering like the hiring initiatives in Peel region, which, you

know, is like obviously a question that the public is deeply concerned with and would want

to hear about. Yes, yes. Because it's not very often folks get to go face to face with the

police chief and ask some really hard questions. And you say a few of you were following it

personally. Why? you know, state the obvious, say the quiet part out loud. You knew what

he would do. I've had a bit of a front row seat to some of the big incidents of police violence

over the last couple of years. Um, I mean, one of the things that really kind of like motivated

me to get a lot more involved in the movement was I was at the Avenue 401. Uh, it was a vigil,

like a kind of like silent protest walk that a few folks had organized to protest. The ban

that the police had arbitrarily put on protesting at the Avenue 401 Overpass on the basis of

the false claims by Cija and other orgs that this is an exclusively Jewish neighbourhood

and that the protest was targeting a Jewish neighbourhood. Obviously not true. These were

banner drops that were modelled on similar banner drops that were done by Ukraine solidarity

activists, obviously to no complaints, to raise awareness about You what was happening

in Gaza and Canada's complicity in it. I mean, it was targeting like raising awareness for

drivers on the 401. They tended to happen on Saturdays. I don't know. And I mean, it's not

a Jewish neighborhood. It's a diverse neighborhood. It's a neighborhood that I live in. It's a

neighborhood who's, I mean, I the closest religious institution to the overpass is a Catholic church.

So I don't know. I mean, I felt. pre-activated by the police just arbitrarily declaring a

no protest zone in my neighbourhood. So I showed up to this and there was maybe like 20 of us

and we were met by, I mean, what looked like hundreds of cops. It was probably like 60 or

something like that. I think we shared the video of the incident in the article. Yeah. And we

talked about this a little bit when you were on the show with some of your comrades there

from the area. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, the police basically just hyped up, attacked us, uh shoving

people to like icy ground, shoving people into the on-ramp lane we had been on the sidewalk

uh and causing a number of injuries. I think three people went to the hospital. Three people

were arrested on charges that were dropped because they were baseless and a huge excess of police

authority. so, yeah, so I, you know, I was also at the jail support rally that had happened

on September 11th of 2024. which as the grant reported, like essentially was a police caused

riot. I mean, I was like, I'd gone, I'd driven down just to drop off some water, dropped off

the water, went to park my car, walked back and there was tear gas everywhere. There was

like people being punched in the face by the cops. There was like just total mayhem. um

So yeah, so mean, this is why I was motivated to talk to the chief, unlike Heather Reisman.

who, as the breach reported, has Myron Demke on a direct line and can call whenever she

wants. That's not a thing anyone, think, in the regular public has access to. It's really

remarkable, I think, that he's been totally insulated from not only just regular movement

participants in the city, but movement leaders. I know that there have been lots of attempts

to sort of reach out and try to have a conversation about this. like the hyper policing of these

protests and there's just been no, like there's been no way to access these powerful people.

mean, even, I think I had an opportunity to ask Olivia Chow. I think we've all seen that

video. Yeah, like what the fuck is going on? And she basically said that the police aren't

her response. She doesn't have any power with police. I don't know. I don't know who they're

accountable to. Apparently Heather Reisman. What let's while you just describe the violence

you saw firsthand, plus we've seen and read about Adam's account. We will link a lot of

these kind of references in the show notes for folks to see for themselves. But let's quickly

then contrast that to the responses the chief gave of how he feels his officers have responded

in these matters, right? So he, you do get, or maybe you don't, but people do call in

and press. And what was his take? Like, what did he try to sell to 1010 Radio audience?

Yeah. So actually the first caller that got through, um, was someone else that I actually

recognized from the protest movement. Her name is Liz and she's often been involved in like

marshaling or being the police liaison. And she asked him about police violence. And so,

so she, she asked since October, 2023, it seems like the Toronto police. has been attacking

pro-Palestine supporters, including at least two documented instances of the controversial

neon neck technique. Dozens of people have ended up in the hospital as a result of police

force, including broken bones, concussions, torn ligaments. And I'm just wondering, is

the Toronto police perhaps using excessive force? So Demke's response to this was first to

kind of downplay police violence, talking about how there have been like hundreds of quote

unquote, planned and unplanned events that they've policed. And most of these have not resulted

in any arrests or violence. And then he went on to say that there are occasions when they've

had to use violence since, and of course he drops October 7th, 2023, and arrests by their

very nature, quote, involve some amount of use of force, unquote. But we do so, and he said,

proportionately to the circumstances each and every time. So that word proportionate really

kind of stuck out to me because I'd been talking to the Orange Hats who'd shared or been kind

of sharing around these numbers of injuries that they've directly documented. And I mean,

it should be said that this list of injuries is not, like they're not claiming that this

is every single case. You couldn't, like some people just go home after getting hurt and

they... they don't say or do anything. exactly. And so this is just the cases that they've

been able to sort of like confirm and document with people. over the like, basically since

January 2024, I mean, the highlight to me is there have been 48 brain injuries caused by

police violence of protesters. These have overwhelmingly I mean, the orange hats collect this data at,

you know, all kinds of different protests. But overwhelmingly, these cases have been at pro

Palestine events. Well, let's be honest, that's where most of the violence is reserved for.

Right. That and Indigenous-led protests. Yeah, although, I I have to say I've been at a bunch

of Indigenous protests over the past couple of years as well. And, you know, there have

been the odd comments thrown out there by the police liaison that, like, we know you guys...

I mean, it's bullshit, but, like, favorably contrasting... other protests to the violent,

hateful pro-Palestine crowd, which again is like a fabrication. I don't know, maybe this

is a good chance to read Liz's response to Demke's answer. Yeah. So I approached Liz because again,

I recognized her voice and asked her for comment on Demke's response. And she said, quote, it's

so hypocritical that they demand safety from the protesters when they're the ones escalating

actions and putting people in the hospital. I haven't seen any protesters put anyone in

the hospital. And the fact that they consider that a quote proportionate response says a

lot about the Toronto police department. Honestly, the fact that they're blaming the victims of

these assaults on the absolutely baseless claims of hateful actions or behavior is nonsense

and despicable. And I mean, I just, really want to highlight that, you know, I know that there's

like disagreements about strategy, but it has just been the case that there's been a strategic

decision on the part. of the major movement orgs in the city to pursue a strategy of nonviolence.

And I think the actual record of these protests has reflected that. mean, the average Habs

playoff win or loss, I think, has resulted in more property destruction or assault or

whatever than has been documented at almost two years of... hundreds of protests involving

tens and tens of thousands of people. We have to ask, what is this, where is this perception

coming from of this aura of violence that's been attached to these protests? And I mean,

I think the answer is like, they're racialized, there's a campaign to smear them. Liz mentions

it near the end. It's that framing of hate, hate crime, right? We often see attempts to

add hate. related charges or aggravating factors, totally unbased, right? But that has been

the tactic of the Zionist lobby, right? To frame just anything Palestinian as inherently

related to terrorism. You know, you had that, I don't remember her name, I think my mind

blocks out some of these clowns, but school trustee getting up there in front of everybody

full chest saying, you know, wearing a kaffir. is makes her feel unsafe, makes everyone

around them feel unsafe. it's like this. Shelly Laskin? No, she has like a hyphenated name.

Okay. Okay. It sounds like Shelly Laskin. Well, I was just about to say it's very invasive.

Like it's everywhere. Like it's like garlic mustard. But it's, um it underlies everything

and provides a justification. And like you, uh highlighted something for me in the article

that I hadn't heard uh one of the police representatives there actually calling these protests, Resolute

protests. Because, okay, for the audience, in case you missed our like, kajillion episodes

on the evolving lawfare being uh used against particularly Toronto protesters. there's Project

Resolute, which uh it explicitly did say, you know, It's tasked with investigating protests

related to the Middle East. Like they were pretty implicitly racist from the beginning, but we

knew that really didn't just mean the Middle East. It meant Palestine specifically. And

now they're just saying that out loud, right? Like I asked you, that a Freudian slip or what?

Like, is that just how they refer to all of these as, it's almost like a What did you

call it? The shorthand or like a funding code, right? Like all of this must be costing so

much money. Like we'll get into that. But yeah. So Project Resolute is now a web of various

kinds of police responses, right? From the harassment that goes on to activists after

to the deployment of incredible resources on site to the networking of police. across probably

the country at this point, but I thought that was astonishing that he got caught kind of

calling them. I will say I don't want to take credit for that one. I was quoting from uh

a piece that was run a couple of weeks ago in the New Arab by uh Aparajita Ghosh uh called

Drones, No-Go Zones and Weaponized Policing Inside Project Resolute Canada's Crackdown

on Palestine speech. So she's the one that actually reproduced that quote from the deputy

police chief calling these quote project resolute demonstrations and protests. uh That's deputy

police chief Rob Johnson. And she quotes him saying that in January. folks who don't understand,

like they're approaching even a vigil for slain journalists as some sort of hate crime filled

gathering, not just in their minds and their language, but you've seen in terms of resource

and heavy-handed police violence. Do you want to describe what kind of deployments you're

seeing at maybe even some of the more innocuous gatherings? know, there's consistently been

these massive police deployments to any protest marked pro-Palestine going back to essentially

Mayor Chao on October 9th insinuating that they're terrorists sympathizing or whatever. um It's

been really clear that the police understanding of what they're doing is that they're protecting

the public from these demonstrations that are a threat to it or something. They don't recognize

the demonstrations as an expression of the public or as part of the public. mean, frankly,

if we were to accept their line that they should be protecting, if we had it our way, they

would just fuck off entirely. um But uh there's been a gradual increase in the demands being

put on protests backed up by this threat of really immediate violence and force that,

again, will almost almost certainly result in charges that will later be withdrawn as

baseless because police are overreaching beyond any legal authority that they currently have,

although again, rising fascism, who knows how long until they're empowered to just beat us

arbitrarily. But yeah, I mean, you reference this vigil. This was a vigil that was held

a couple weeks ago, immediately after the murder of Anas al-Sharif and the Al Jazeera team.

uh in Gaza by Israel by a targeted airstrike um that was accompanied again by a smear campaign

trying to paint this person that had been on air live every day constantly for two years

as a quote fake journalist and as some kind of secret Hamas operative. Yeah, so anyway,

it was a vigil to not only those slain journalists, but the I think it's like approaching 300 journalists

that have been killed in Gaza over the last two years, which I think was recently found

to be more journalists than were killed in like all of the major 20th century wars combined.

um And so yeah, I was at this vigil which was held um outside the old Much Music building,

which is kind of branded with CTV, Queen and John. Yeah, et cetera. um And I was working

with the Marshall team and uh like before the protest or the vigil, wasn't even a it was

a vigil. Before the vigil had been assembled. Police liaison, uh, Nerubin, backed by Roger

Ford, approached us and basically said, you're not going to be allowed to march in the streets

unless you tell us your route. I mean, of course it wasn't planned to be a march. So we were

like, what are you talking about? Yeah, it's illegal for you guys to march and you get to

do it at our pleasure. Blah, blah, blah, blah. I think we were like, listen, this is a vigil.

We don't want this to be about confrontation with the cops. He said specifically, we have

enough deployments to arrest everyone. So like the police response to the public wanting

to have a vigil to journalists being murdered by an apartheid state was again, violent threats.

And so he then approached me again as the crowd built up to the point that it started

to spill into the street. And kind of I asked him to clarify it. Like he reiterated this

threat and asked him to clarify it. Like what is the legal basis? that you're claiming for

this. And he cited the fact that all streets downtown are critical infrastructure. And he

cited the Highway Traffic Act and said explicitly that basically protests are only allowed to

take the street at police discretion under the Highway Traffic Act. So I did some research

and I think it's like section 141 that empowers police to direct traffic. which I guess they're

interpreting is like crowning them absolute dictators of all streets everywhere. doesn't

take much for them to get that green light though, right? Like any kind of encouragement. G20

did a lot for them there. And I mean, and the Highway Traffic Act is not part of the criminal

code. Like it's like Ontario legislation. And so essentially where that they think that that

empowers them to criminalize people is Essentially, if you violate their directives, they can arrest

you or charge you with obstruction. Or mischief is a common charge for folks for blocking the

roadway. Yeah. And like you said, these charges end up getting dropped down the road. like

just quickly, we should note that even though charges are dropped, people go through incredible

trauma. You know, that isn't to scare folks from protesting because there's support systems.

I mean, like you're doxxed with these police statements. You You know, have to face repercussions,

your family, your job may find out that you've been arrested and then they add that stupid

tagline and investigated for possible hate crimes, you know, just because you've been tagged with

the resolute tag, right? And that's an automatic basically hate crime investigation. And then

you have to possibly spend a few days in jail, fight bail conditions or live under awful

bail conditions. We've told so many stories of people spending months and months or longer.

with ridiculous bail conditions that are unconstitutional. So we've done so many episodes. That's just

why I kind of gave the fast version there, because it's that process of punishment that they

use. when they threaten Ben going, we have enough people to arrest you, it's not like

they're just going to arrest you and ticket you for trust or jaywalking or whatever they

think you're doing. They will charge you under the criminal code unjustly, because it's no

sweat off their back at all. They move on. their arrest record and conviction record is

not a concern for them whatsoever, right? They will just move on to the next project, Resolute

Protest, and round them up. And I think watching London round up 500 plus people in one day

is setting a tone as well, because you get to a certain amount of numbers and you think,

they can't arrest us all. And then they're showing up on site saying, we absolutely fucking

can, and we will. Did you record that? confession from that cop or that cop telling you that

he is the law. Yeah, yeah. So I did record his clarification, which I think was really

helpful because I interpreted that. So this happened on the Tuesday ahead of last Saturday's

kind of big march that was meeting at Yonge and Dundas Square. I kind of interpreted this

as essentially a shot off the bow, trying to intimidate organizers ahead of that march.

And so we were like really wanting to try to figure out how we could push back against this

and, you know, get it clarified, get it on the public record that there's no legal basis for

this thing. So, you know, we showed the recording to Shane Martinez, who's a criminal law lawyer

here in Toronto, who's defended a lot of people in the movement to folks at the criminal community

justice collective, you know, and they were all basically unanimous in saying, There is

no legal basis for this claim. That doesn't mean that they're not gonna arrest you, possibly

violently, possibly sticking you with these onerous bail conditions, sticking you in like

a cold room overnight. This must be so frustrating for lawyers, right? Like trying to advise the

movement because everything comes with, yeah, but like in the past they wouldn't have, but

now we don't know or by law they can't, but that means doesn't mean they won't. And they

brag about... the arrest numbers. like to them, I remember on the anniversary of October 7th,

October 7th, 2024, think Demeque issued this long statement, you know, which was directed

towards the small minority in Toronto that are aggressively pro-Israel, reassuring them that

like, look, look how much we're protecting you. Look how many people we are violently arresting.

So to them, the arrest numbers are themselves a thing that they can kind of make bank off

of. And it doesn't matter that the arrests later get thrown out as baseless. You know, it doesn't

matter that people's reputations get ruined, not only because of just the press releases

that get like stenographically reproduced by CP24, City News, et cetera, with no follow-up,

no investigation. Which, know, again, it's not like necessarily the journalists themselves

fault. They're under these like crazy strict deadlines. They don't have time to do actual

reporting. But I mean, maybe we need to recognize that this news is coming from people that don't

have time to do actual reporting. And, you know, that should be an asterisk next to absolutely

everything that appears in these, on these websites, you know, and then these get picked up by

activists, like pro genocide activists that see any expression of dissent against Israel's

genocide against Canada's support for Israel's genocide as something that is convictable

immediately. And they launched these campaigns to like disparage and um get people fired and

get people harassed. And I mean, I believe that the police know this and this is why I

know that at the Legal Support Committee, they have like the process of the punishment as

a bit of a mantra. You know, basically the presumption of innocence doesn't exist, you

know? I just want to interject for a second because you said something about pro-Israeli

activists picking up on these releases. I would suggest they are fed to them. Because we know,

like, we've had an episode on Project Resolute itself and the people that are actually running

it. within the Ontario Attorney General's office. And we know that there's been cases where they

have had contacts inside the Israeli embassy well before anybody else could. And so I

would suggest there is a pipeline of charges to those that would dox HonestReporting.com

or whatever it is. they, this is not just someone like waiting for police feeds and getting lucky

and finding things. I'm imagining. It's fed to them and just to double back again on them

bragging about their arrests, that's not just for the folks that you mentioned. It's the

only way to justify the means to the next one, right? And their budget, right? You can't just

keep deploying hundreds of officers and then go back and have no arrests, right? Because

over and over, it's one thing to be like, oh, you we were ultra cautious. And then look,

we had to arrest 12 people. So let's be extra. cautious, extra deployed. Next time, let's

get more bells and whistles, new training, more drones, you know, all of it. just it snowballs,

right? Because every time they manifest these arrests, it just justifies even more spending,

which is more police violence, which is even more arrests. And because they won't ever

be satisfied with with their budget or their growth, right? So it's just a feeding frenzy.

Well, and then it becomes it becomes a resource sink for the movement to fight all of these

all of these kind of petty things that again, I mean, it's it's it's like kind of effective

counterinsurgency being pushed by again, these activists supporting the genocide that's being

committed with Canadian complicity in Gaza. You know, suddenly we're like only we're talking

about and we're focused on like getting these unjust charges thrown out. The story is about

this police response or whether or not the police are responding to us. You know, poses external

threat well enough, you know, whatever, when it's people that are out there protesting the

genocide that's being committed in our name. And like, again, any excuse to sort of bury

that headline is something that I think the police are deeply complicit in participating

in, you know, suppressing. I can see why you were so eager to tune in and fact check this

shit. It's astonishing that the mainstream media isn't. We did mention this with another guest

where it's just how many times have they been provided evidence, like Adam's case is probably

one of the best ones, where multiple outlets were there to witness his beating and then

arrest. And actually... published something along the lines of, actually, you know, according

to a global, you know, global news cameraman on site, but that often does not happen. Like

they just happen to get lucky and they were there. They do not seek out the other story.

So we brought in a gur from the movement media hub, right? And he talks about using similar

tactics as the police. Like he didn't say they were similar, but I'm drawing the similarities

where like you were just feeding the press what they need, your own your own police report,

you know, it's not a mugshot and whatnot, but it's everything, all the counterpoints that

any journalist might need to tell at least half of that other side of the story. And still

it's hard to get traction that way. You know what I mean? So there's this inherent bias,

even when it's made easy for the journalists. So, so to pick up on the story following up

from the vigil, I had that recording and we saw this again as a shot off the bow warning

us essentially that they're going to be even more. draconian uh on Saturday at the big march.

uh You know, recently they've taken to demanding protest routes uh and saying and enforcing

this completely bullshit rule that if the protest stops for like a speaker or something like

that, if it stops for more than five minutes, that's against the law or something like

that. This is the line that's being enforced, especially by Roger Ford, as I've seen, but

I mean, I know it's also been the case with some others. And so we wanted to kind of like

do some pushback on that. And so we gave the recording to some reporters at the Star who

said they were kind of interested in running a story on this policy change on the part of

the cops. A couple of us had been prepared to like give interviews to them. They said

they wanted to reach out to the cops first and get their statement. Of course. Yeah. And the

police denied that there's been any policy change. And also said of of Nourubin, the police liaison

that I recorded, that he, I forget exactly what the word was. think that he had misstated or

misled us about the law. Well, Nourubin can't show up as police liaison to any resolute protest

now, can he? Yeah. If you face him, you're going like, you have no credibility son. Like you

have none. Your boys in blue won't even back you. Yeah. mean, again, as- As some of the

lawyers I talked to said, mean, police talk, police don't know the law and they don't care

to know the law because it's not their business to know the law. They have this power to do

these arrests on the basis of whatever they decide the law is. And then it's for the courts

to figure it out later at the public's expense. I mean, this is not cheap. It's not cheap to

like, you know, baselessly put like place charges on. At this point, I 133 or more uh protest

participants that are overwhelmingly either going to be thrown out or result in discharges,

which is to say not convictions, which is again the other, I think, major piece of news that

got kind of broken in this, which is that like so far these arrests haven't resulted in any

convictions at all. Now, I mean, I don't. I don't expect that to hold up forever. they're

gonna, the court system is extremely hostile to Palestine solidarity. They're part of the

Canadian state that is supporting this genocide. And so, I mean, I think eventually they're

gonna come up with some conviction and then at that point it'll be like one out of 133,

right? Oh, and they will blow that one case up when they can, right? Like it's, I keep

thinking back to, London and you know I was just reading some discourse around those arrests

like 500 or more at one action is just like fucking astonishing but you hear a lot of people

talking about oh you police are just following orders you know you're talking about folks

you've got the Nuremberg defense yeah yeah like I don't know if they hear it when they say

it out loud but it was genuine pushback against like vilifying actual police officers. So like

the folks you're naming here are decision makers, Deputy police chiefs, police liaisons and

whatnot. But a lot of some of the tactics that folks have employed in LA is another example,

but in the UK as well is documenting each and every police officer at these actions in an

attempt to shame them, hold them accountable, document it. I mean, there's probably a multitude

of reasons why people are doing it. How are you feeling about, you know, pushing back against

police? I mean, I think it's, you know, by whatever means that we can do, I think we need

to sort of figure out how to, um, like call out and push back against this overreach. mean,

to the extent that Canada wants to pretend that it's democracy, like this is completely inconsistent

with that. I think that like the key thing right now is just to understand like the processes.

by which the decisions about these things are getting made. I mean, I don't know. mean,

TPS denied to the star that there's been a policy change, although we did still see an expression

of an apparent policy change at the level of the street on Saturday, where they did enforce

the demand for the route, where they did enforce this bullshit five minute restriction and where

they had an absolutely massive deployment, including of course, their like horses. that they had

used to trample all over protesters at the land day march in March of 2024. And which actually,

you it's funny on the radio call in show, I don't think this made it into the article,

but there was a question about, actually there were two questions that were led through about

public drug use. You know, and obviously like the end to the safe injection sites program

was never talked about by either Carol or by... Demp Q, no, m but Carol did mention that they

had tried trampling over the encampments with horses and funnily enough that didn't work.

So actually, I think you can find a recording of the whole episode linked to from the article

if you want to hear that snippet. I mean, I think the whole thing is worth listening to.

It is as long as you have something there to help center you, because I imagine it's quite

maddening to hear these two, you know, even the photo that you've used there where they're

hugging one another. And it's just you mentioned her and I forgot to I have Fuck Shelly Carroll

in my notes here. So um the complicit in the cooperation that Toronto Council is giving

all of this, most namely in the form of a bubble zone law, like whether or not that applies

to any of the confrontations that you're kind of talking about or not, it's just like this

other another tool that's been given to the police, almost very specifically to counter

pro-Palestinian protests and embolden them. right, to give them even more ability to

cordon off areas, no-go zones, and restrict the movement of protesters. Have you kind

of felt the impacts of that? I mean, when it came, we talked to the Orange Hats, and they

were great in saying, know, giving us plenty of examples of they already create bubble zones.

You talked about one on the overpass. When they want to make one, they'll make one. But now

it's, you know, there's a hundred thousand dollar possible fine. And then, you know, Carney's

talking about adding it to the criminal code. But are you finding cops emboldened by that

or utilizing it all? mean, I haven't heard them specifically invoke it yet. I'd imagine

that would change if it does get added to the criminal code because suddenly then it becomes

their problem in a big way. I mean, I think that the TPS response to the legislation, which

by the way, like their own legal counsel said was not constitutional, which their public

consent manufacturing exercise. 97%. Yeah, everyone said they don't want this. But I mean, TPS's

response was we already basically do this. So this isn't going to change anything. And I

mean, again, like the key kind of reference incident for this. Was a fucking fiction.

was the, there was that hands off Rafa march in February of 2024, which went from the Israeli

consulate to the US consulate, which is on lower university. Hospital row. Yeah. So essentially

the march, I think went along college. And then if I remember right, the police actually directed

the march down the university. Yes, they did. And then there was this guy named Spider-Man

for Palestine that had been climbing lampposts and like- That's not his real name. You know,

whatever. Yeah, yeah. He'd been like climbing, you know, climbing buildings and waving the-

Scaffolding, usually. All the way down the protest route. Of course, there was one short, I think,

17-second clip of him climbing on Mount Sinai for a photo op for one second. The protest

did not stop, but this got picked up on by like- Weinstein by then Cija and all these other

orgs to claim that the protest had, quote, targeted Mount Sinai Hospital, a line that

was then validated by the entire political establishment, including fucking Jagmeet Singh, who, incidentally,

I bumped into shortly before the election in Kensington Market. He was just driving his

bike or whatever. And I asked him, like, why didn't you retract this once it became clear

this was a lie? And he said that he just like laughed it off and said, I don't, I don't remember.

You know, lots of things have happened. It's not significant to him. It's not significant

to him. And yet this is this key reference point. This entire, this fiction for painting the

protests as a violent and as targeting quote, a historically Jewish hospital that is a public

hospital. that like most of us are patients at in one form or another. feel like I think

my like I have a specialist that's at Mount Sinai. I like use my, why would we target a

hospital? know? The shit people got away with, we didn't plan on talking about this, but

there's no way. I think it was Lisa MacLeod and I might be wrong. Oh, who said that they'd

infiltrated? Yes, that they were like attacking Jewish doctors and patients inside the hospital.

That entrance was closed. It had been closed for hours. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, no, we go off

on that on this show here because just for the reason you say it was for so many, it's a

moment that's referenced by our enemies many times, and it just kind of helps set policy,

even though they would have grabbed onto anything. But it also for me, it was like the ridiculousness

of ever trying to manage the narrative by adjusting your parade route. Sorry. Your march. route

or, uh you know, worrying about how this might be perceived by the press ahead of time when

you can do something just so simple as, you know, dress in a costume and climb on something

and that changes the trajectory in a way. But yeah, it was like, it doesn't matter what

you do, they will come up with a story and twist it and it will be used to feed that narrative

that anything Palestinian is inherently violent, like just so explicitly racist. Yeah. And I

mean, it wasn't like the the sort of escalation of police, like police efforts to dominate

the protests had started before this. So you know that they were like waiting on an opportunity

and they validated every bullshit narrative about this, even though they were on scene,

they know exactly what had happened. But They'd already kind of signaled that their priority

was to crack down on the protest. think in January of 2024 was when they started to like really

try to police uh the truck, you know, the truck that usually leads the protest with the speaker.

like they started to demand that the driver give their driver's license. They started to

like, it decided that they needed to get to do a full check that all the speakers were

locked down that. No one was riding in the bed of the truck uh while it was moving at

five kilometers per hour, threatening that they would arrest you for like, I think stunt driving,

which is again an arrest that they then made on like one month later. Impounded. Impounding

the trunk for fucking stunt driving for just like going with five kilometers per hour up

the street. Obviously this legislation was intended to empower police to like uh stop. like illegal

drag racing like Fast and the Furious style. It has no relevance to this and yet this

is again the pretext that they're using on the ground to justify using these like excessive

measures to try to intimidate and put costs on people before there's any kind of actual

judicial evaluation of whether that's legitimate. And there's apparently no feedback mechanism

because when the courts tell them that it's not, it doesn't change their behavior. And

that's not a scandal because we don't have an independent press except for like these tiny

exceptions like the grind, the breach, know, the maple, Samira Moyadid, you know, there's

these tiny exceptions that don't have like huge audiences. They're pretty effectively restricted

in their reach by social media, et cetera. um But like, again, like the journalists are not

pressing back on this and there's no will on the part of these major media outlets to be

aggressive with this stuff. And again, the burden of proof that we're dealing with to register

anything in those venues is like as high as Everest. Whereas if you're a pro-Israel genocide

fear monger, you literally don't have to, you can make shit up and it gets run, you know?

Or corrected. Yeah. What was the latest maddening? I believe it was the Globe and Mail made a

correction labeling Gaza's starvation. was forced starvation. They corrected that it was that

that was an overstatement or something like that. I think I saw that on the show yesterday.

Yeah, through that pressure that you're talking about, you know, and that we've talked about

too on the show. So when they want to influence the story in the same way, you know, we bombard

MPs and MPPs with phone calls and emails and some facts. They're at these newsrooms, right?

Going, you didn't print it the way that we wanted to be printed, here's the correction, or ahead

of time, you know? I mean, if they were only bombarding the newsrooms, I don't think that

it would have the impact that it obviously has, because we're also, to some extent, bombarding

the newsrooms. That's right, that inherent bias is there already. Yeah, we're not, like, we're

not, like, when we call bullshit on some- And when we organize people to call or message

or email, it doesn't have the same effect. So I mean, at the end of the day, it's it's there's

a lot of shit happening behind the scenes in terms of the power elite in this country that

is like pretty, you know, it just renders ludicrous the idea that Canada is a fucking

democracy. It's not a democracy. know, oh, you drop that bomb at the end of the episode. I

don't know. I'm just angry that there's like, you know, we just had an election and there's

no. viable electoral option that has a serious proposal. I'm feeling every word. Yeah, that

has a serious proposal to address the biggest, like, housing environment stuff, like climate

changes, like, who can you vote for that will, like... I don't care. I don't really care anymore

because that's not the most effective way, but it just for people listening at the beginning

of the show, you know, there's a chant like, is what democracy looks like. Most of the time

that is, like, facetious. You know, like I am sometimes demonstrating the worst of democracy,

but also, you know, us in the streets, I think is better example of what democracy, you know,

could and should look like. uh Mob rule is something that, you know, people have such fear of. But

of course, when you when you frame it that way. have fear of the fact that that Heather

Reisman, who literally redirects Canadian tax credits to directly support the Israeli military

currently committing genocide has a direct line to, you know, the police, the chief of police,

whenever she wants. And we have to ambush him on a call in show because no matter what

we try, we can't get through. can't register as like people that are valid members of

the Canadian public, you know. uh And this again has been a strategy, like there's been an aggressive

strategy on the part of the pro-Israel lobby too. You know, at their rallies, they'll always

be waving the Israeli flag and the Canadian flag. And then they'll, you know, call for

the deportation, you know, of anyone involved in Palestine protest, implying that we're all

foreign agitators. I mean, I'm, I'm Métis, I'm not foreign to this. I mean, like, technically

this, like, whatever my homeland is the Red River or whatever, it's not true. So in that

sense, I guess I'm foreign in Toronto, fine, deport me to Winnipeg. But like, but there,

you know, if you look again at these pro-Israel protests that happened, they're overwhelmingly

white. And there is an aggressive attempt to racialize and play on the racism of Canadian

society to rationalize, again, criminalizing and using violence against these protests

that again have been overwhelmingly peaceful, you for better or worse. Which is why those

lines sell so easily, right? In the ridiculousness of the Spider-Man and the Mount Sinai, or just

the simple descriptions of these protests as hateful and disrupt- well, I would love for

them to be disruptive, but that has connotations for most, you know, Canadians. And so it's

quite easy for them to then look at these two sides and kind of be maybe unsure. or they're

buying it hook, line and sinker, right? They may believe in the Palestinian cause, but that

doesn't mean they're not still looking at the resistance movement here as inherently violent

because of what the media is telling them, right? What the police is telling them. And

that makes them perhaps reluctant to lean into the movement in the way that they could. So

yeah, it has detrimental impact even when people know, you know, right from wrong, maybe globally.

And I know we're moving people on Zionism as being untenable, as unsustainable, as wrong.

But how we feel about protests is still not very good, right? Like people hated the convoy

for obvious reasons. And then now folks are looking at other forms of protest as just too

disruptive. know, even a strike, Air Canada workers, you know, not everybody was with them

because it was going to disrupt our economy. uh So I think there's a little bit of work

to be done, you know, to counter that. And I'm glad that you're doing that kind of work to

call them on this bullshit and reframe it. Have you had a response, any notable response from

the article? Like, police chief call you? Yeah, I mean, not too much. Like, I know that it's

been generally well received in kind of activist circles. I mean, to me, the most important

thing was to just provide a venue to register some of these facts. that then can be uh referenced

by others because, know, like that just despite the efforts of groups like the Orange Hats

or groups like the Legal Support Committee to get these things registered in the media, it

just hasn't, they've been met with stonewalls. that's what's been important. And so I'm hoping

that it has a positive impact kind of in the longer term. I mean, just like The Grind,

I think published that account of what actually happened at Mount Sinai Hospital. that to me

has been really valuable to like reference in the future, like to reference on an ongoing

basis to blow up this myth that keeps being brought up to justify these crackdowns. I'm

hoping that this can be helpful for that in the future. It already has been. So thank you.

I will link it in the show notes for folks to read it in full. But again, yeah, please support

folks like The Grind and The Maple. They are really going above and beyond in these times

to kind of get the truth out there. Everyone's doing every little bit that they can on every

imaginable front. Ben, you're one of those people. appreciate the tidbits of wisdom. You drop

me a line every now and again and I get a scoop or whatnot. And I do appreciate you keeping

in touch with the show and keeping us updated as well. Thank you. Thanks, Jessa. I mean,

I really think that you're doing the Lord's work. I, I, I, these stories, again, I wish

not even just for like audience growth sake. mean, like they're just, everyone should hear

them. Cause like sometimes my measure is telling my mom and getting her reaction. And I imagine

that would be most, um, mainstream Canadians actions. Like what? No, they didn't, you know,

like that, they can't do that. And you know, I. If I could just generate that feeling

in as many people as possible paired with the what can I do about it? And then, uh yes, I

will feel like we're being productive. um But yeah, I can't do it without the guests. So

thanks again. And until next time. Cheers, Jessa. That is a wrap on another episode of

Blueprints of Disruption. Thank you for joining us. Blueprints of Disruption is an independent

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