Gary C: Hi I'm Gary and this episode 200 of EV musings, a podcast about renewables, electric vehicles and things that are interesting to electric vehicle owners.
This season of the podcast is sponsored by Zapmap, the free to download app that helps EV drivers search plan and pay for their charging.
Welcome to this season ending roundtable episode. The eagle eyed amongst you will have noticed the title of the absolute which is the female EV driver roundtable. I wanted to do an episode which discussed the whole area of female drivers in EV world, marketing to them, selling to them. We've been charging in unsafe situations etc. Lots of potential areas to discuss. So let me introduce the panel today. I'd like to start by welcoming Imogen Bhogal who is a presenter of the Fully Charged Show. You will have seen her in episodes chatting with the Pole To Pole team in Iceland, standing on some floating solar panels in Portugal, schooling Jack Scarlett on aerodynamics in a wind tunnel and checking out electric planes in Vancouver. Welcome Imogen.
Imogen B: Thanks, Gary. And what a privilege to be in Episode 200.
Gary C: Yes, I can barely believe it myself. Now, I'm probably not the right person to lead this sort of discussion given that I'm not a woman. So Imogen, would you be willing to take over here introduce the other guests baud rate the session? When you've all put the Walter writes, let me know. And I'll pop back in at the end and wrap up the podcast.
Imogen B: I think we can manage that. Thank you for entrusting your delightful podcast to somebody else for the day. In that case, what a delightful introduction. But I am joined by some far more infinitely far more fascinating women. I'm absolutely thrilled to be sharing this roundtable with. So here on the podcast, we have Sarah Sloman Chief Strategy Officer for Patreon and EV charging software and payments company. She is also part of the EV Cafe, which is an amazing forum to share information and expertise surrounding the Eevee transition. Claire Miller, all round expert mobility advisor and consultant who also sits on about 10 zillion boards. George Thurman, who is the founder of Women drive electric, which is a collaborative space where women car consumers and women EV industry combined to make the switch to EV that much easier. She's also a business development manager at Ed Bodyshops. And then Lynn Grave who is the founder and CEO of EV driver, which provides consultancy services for EV charging networks. And prior to that, she loved the EV driver Network of Public EV charging points in the East of England. So quite a lineup there. where to even begin well, we are having this conversation towards the end of the year, which is often a time to kind of look back and reflect on the year that we've had. So I wonder whether we could kick things off by describing some of the really big shifts that we've seen and experienced in each of our various spheres? Which the big question, which I definitely should have teed you up beforehand, then we'll see where we go. And we'll see where we land. George, I wonder if I could start with you. Because it's been quite a phenomenal year for you.
George T: Yes, I'm so funny that you're the one that points out my other job, because I continue my life and my heart and my soul is in when we drive electric. And occasionally I forget about my other one that's to my year that don't tell out and my husband.
So yeah, for us, it's been phenomenal. We just started off as a little Facebook page. And I started introducing myself to people in the industry so that we could get some extra help on the website. And then it's just kind of barrel roll from there, really. And I've ended up with a nice little career and EV industry, meeting them just the best bunch of people ever that I've met in my life in an industry. And yes, things were going great guns, we're working on a website at the moment, which will bring the kind of thing that we do the community spirit as well that we have in women drive electric, we're going to take it out of Facebook, it will still live there. That's still where the forum will be. But we're going to offer out on a website now as well. Like I said, it's so exciting.
Imogen B: And that community aspect is something I want to return to this conversation because it's certainly something when I've bumped into you at various kinds of events. It's like oh, so lovely to see familiar faces and to see you and that sense of community has been certainly very, it's been really apparent that sort of cultivating around, you know, this shared ambition for switch to electric. So
it's great to see that and I wonder, Claire, you've had an interesting year because you have this sensational helicopter view where I feel like you're just like, you know, almost like I always imagined like you've got this sort of mastermind tables, sort of moving the various chess pieces across the EV transition.
Claire Miller: Thank you, Imogen. I wish I could see most of my table. Maybe that's maybe that's the best analogy for the industry at the moment, actually, which is yeah, there are so many moving parts, so many interesting technologies, interesting businesses. And I think we're very lucky in the UK that we have lots of markets kind of conditions that mean that is arguably the best place to be innovating in EVs, charging and energy. And that means that it's a really fertile ground for startups and scale up. So I think the thing I'm excited about this year, and as you say, I I've sort of changed the way I work from being full time Octopus EV, Director of Tech and Innovation. And I've sort of got into that sort of advisory consulting, way of working. So I could scale myself across lots of businesses and technologies selfishly, because it's really fun. And I still get to do a bit with Octopus as well. So you know, that, lucky me. But in terms of the the way that the the world in the UK is moving, we're starting to, you know, startups become scale ups. So we're starting to see, you know, 1, 2, 3, 4, people become 20, or 40, or 100, bigger even. And I think that's really exciting, because it means that something's working in terms of bringing new technologies to market and new solutions to customers. And I think the challenge that I can see ahead is actually, well, a couple of big ones. And I don't know if we've got time to lift the lid on these, but the political environment is not necessarily the most helpful at the minute in terms of confidence in the market, confidence in the product confidence, in fact, that EVs are incredible and do the job. And that also has a knock on effect to investors and confidence in terms of investing in new businesses. And so I guess it's a brilliant place to be. And I can see technology and innovation in business models, and, and services coming in all directions. My concern, I guess, is how to keep that going, and how to keep the next generations of startups coming through. But yeah, it's been an amazing year. It's been really incredible what I'm very excited for the all the solutions that we can see now sort of coming to fruition,
Imogen B: We've had a number of conversations recently on on the fully charged show where we're starting to return to these companies that we've previously featured on previous episodes. And seeing just the scale of growth is absolutely phenomenal. And every time you see someone sort of grow or bring out a second version of product, you're like, Yes, this is exactly what we need. But at the same time, you're absolutely right. It has felt that this year has become way more polarised way more politicised, and that keeping that sort of positive energy definitely feels like something that we're all going to need a little bit of a in 2024. But Linda, I want to come to you because you're also in an advisory and consultancy sort of role. And I wonder what are the kind of the big themes that you've come across this year, and that you've observed in in your world.
Linda Grave: I think it's sort of carry on from, from what Claire's just said, really, I've made a little note here that I wanted to mention about councils and purda. And purda is the thing that people don't know when councils go into the election phase, they have to stop what they're doing with any competitive bids, and basically halt what they're doing completly and start up again, when everything's sorted out. So this caused a few holes in my work programme last year with local elections and things and we will have another election soon. Is it going to be spring? Or is it going to be later? I guess it is, you know, none of us quite know yet. But my fear is that some of these projects that hadn't quite crossed the line will slow down yet again. And although we've done great guns, I mean, going to the positives of, of last year on on installation of charge units, and you know how we're doing. I was at an event recently a quite a few of us were there, actually the Greenfleet events and earlier on in the day there was Juice, and somebody mentioned there, and I can't quite remember who it was, but it took 10 years to instal the first 10,000 charging unit. And it took seven months to instal the last 10,000 So you know, we aren't doing incredible things here in the UK. And I think you know, big pats on the back. We are, we are totally getting the infrastructure done. There's an awful lot slowing us down. It's not just the councils and purda. It's its planning it permits its road access. It's you know, you name it. It's nimbyism, there's all sorts going on. But if we can get past that, we are going to have a very good infrastructure. And I'm sure Sarah will touch on, you know, payments and processes and how that should be improving dramatically as well. So that we have a smooth running and efficient Evie, charging infrastructure as well as plentiful. That's my hope and reflection of what's going on this year. And the hope that the elections don't cause too much chaos next time around.
Imogen B: Yeah, we've just got to an episode around the top technology 2024 And it's sort of like this is all really exciting. And yes, we've got a million elections. And that is quite terrifying to see how this is all going to sort of play out. But I mean, what it's interesting that the first 10,000 took 10 years you think? And then the last ten thousand doesn't take seven months, that is absolutely extraordinary. And say, I guess you're kind of, you're really sort of seeing that change that, you know, used to be a case that you needed about a good billion different apps, in order to make that charging experience even just a little bit manageable, but that is shifting. And I think that's so interesting, in a world where actually, you know, we are employed by anecdote really matters. And that seamless experience really, really matters to lower that perceived barrier of entry point to the world of EVs. But yeah, what are your reflections from this year?
Sara Sloman: Well, wow. Thank you. What a year! What a year it's been we've seen brand new legislation come in, which is intended to make the user experience easier and yet been a bit of a stronghold a bit of a chokehold, or should they not Stranglehold Korra, a lot of the operators that've now I've got to go back to the drawing board. And we think the rollout of their infrastructure to now comply, if they want to make those charges and a revenue stream for themselves and to help drivers have access to more EV charging. So it's been really tough working with suppliers and really feel for people at the moment who are having to face that challenge. But you're right, it's about putting the driver first and thinking about what they need what they want, and not sort of deploying a sledgehammer to crack a nut when actually contactless technology it's been around for years and years. The first charger we put in, in the Bristol West of England area was 2010. That charger probably still stands perfectly well today, even though it's only a 3.4 kilowatt, rather than a seven or 22 or 50, that people seem to want me these days. But I agree with Linda, that rollout this year has been incredible. Hubs seem to be popping up the heightened vendor from big players like interval break reserve, and that has in turn had a hugely positive impact in the face of uncertainty, political adversity, the people who are on the fence and were doubtful, but now feel a little more confident that perhaps they could go electric, we've seen consumer trend move from those we would call a low hanging fruit who have the affluence have the appetite have the facilities like off-street charging or home jogger, but made it really simple and easy to think about going electric, they were in that slightly tougher phase 24, 25 to 2002 and 2005, about the next wave of drivers who are looking to shift or considering shifting, and it's our collective responsibility to make that as easy as possible, showing through demonstration how physically possible it is and how not so scary it can be. Then I think 2024 will be peppered with positive news stories that we all need to amplify across our channels as best we can provide, of course, they are justified, measured and accurate. I would say.
Imogen B: That's a very valuable caveat to add to that. So it seems like you know, it's sort of an extraordinary year for everyone on on this in this discussion. But also is on the backdrop of you know, a changing legislative background, a lot of kind of fear, uncertainty and doubt that may exist in the market. And that actually pretty 2024 needs to be about Yeah, those positive stories proving that this is perhaps a better experience and user experience. So when it comes to, you know, the role of women in the EV landscape, but before we do, I want to know what EVs do each of you drive? And we'll start with George,
George T: that's not good question for me Imogen because I don't actually own a car.
Imogen B: If you did have an EV, which one would you go for?
George T: If I had the choice, it would probably be between two which is one is the first car I ever drove, which is a Tesla Model X, which I love, with two small boys and all their mates and the gullwing doors when it's raining, the size of it, the speed of it, I couldn't fill it up when I took it camping once which really annoyed me actually, that I couldn't actually fill it up because then I couldn't moan about it the size. So it would either be a Tesla Model X or the Genesis EV 60, which I just adore, I love the styling of it. I love the boost button on it. I love so many elements of it. It's even got a voice memo in it. So if you're thinking about something and as women we do whether we're moms or not, our brains are wired the same with just think about so many things at the same time. And it's got this voice memo button in it and you can just chat away to yourself and then play it back later. And I just love that.
Imogen B: Oh my goodness, I did not know that that function exists and that I need that in my life. Because especially when you're driving that is a good time for you now that have a think about your thoughts. I need that.
George T: Yeah I've left quite a few messages about women drive electric. So some some poor person who next drives one of the fleet gV 60s, the press gV 60. Sorry, we'll have yet lots of lots of messages telling them about when we drive electric.
Imogen B: Which is no bad thing. Absolutely. Linda What EV do you drive?
Linda Grave: I current drive a Tesla Model y. So I've had it since it'll be two years this March, which I love. I had a model three before that and was desperately waiting for something with a practical boot. You know, saloons to me didn't make any sense. You need a hatchback boot, don't you. We've got loads of stuff we need to throw in the back. So I love the model Y. I'm not sure voice notes, though. I know jealous, I'm gonna find out that.
Imogen B: I also currently have a Tesla Model y. And I know that for two reasons, a obviously is great for the dog because you have that hatchback boot. Sweeney, it just is so easy to drive. But also, when I carry my niece's anywhere, it has the whoopee cushion, which they find equal measures hysterical and disturbing.
Linda Grave: Yes, well, I have grandson. So now we have to put on all the different things in there. So you know, whether it's Spotify nursery rhymes, or whoopee cushions or whatever. You know, obviously, when it was built, he really had very young children.
Imogen B: Yeah, we have spent a lot of time changing the colour of it on the screen to you know, bright pink, all that stuff. It's like, I mean, it's good because it gets in the car quickly, which can often be a bit of a headache. Otherwise. Sara about you?
Sara Sloman: Well, I'm in the model Y club, too, I wasn't I wasn't at all I was I had a few before that. But they were all centred around functionality, practicality, Kia e Niro 4+ was a great one, MG ZSEV was also really good. But I like to go outdoorsing, outdoorsing, though, anything to do with hiking or running or cycling or camping. And the Y features ar very flat back seats very long vehicle. And you can set an ambient temperature, so don't freeze to death, or wake up with full commentation around you. But anyone that has been in a car, though, it's the practical functionality versus the performance, getting 300 miles to recharge is is critical. Please don't have a home charger. So it's very expensive for me to recharge my car. And I wanted one with maximum efficiency opportunities. Not as good as the eNero though definitely better miles per kilowatt hour on the eNiro.
Imogen B: Do you know I've currently got Honda eNY1 on loan this week. And it has been absolutely phenomenal that the efficiency just is nowhere near close what it is for the model Y and given it the base spec model Y and Honda eNY1 are similar price point. Oh, especially if you're using a public network. The Tesla Model y just wins every time, I'm sad to say. Okay, so I think it's safe to say that everyone here is is pretty evangelical, about going electric. But we know that we're not there yet, in terms of, it's still not necessarily the number one choice for new, for new car ownership. And we know that there's nowhere near parity when it comes to diversity in the industry, or in electric vehicle sales. So I think this is where we're going to spend the bulk of this conversation. Why is that? And what do we think needs to change?
George T: I think we need to make it clear that when we're not, you know, everybody says that the automotive industry is is very man centric. And it is. It's just the way that it's always been. And we're not, you know, we're not man bashing, it's just that we want to be at the table, we want to be a part of the conversation, I want to be targeted for marketing, I want to be asked what I do and I don't like about our a car. Cars should be should make your life easier, not more complicated. And I think that that's what's changing a lot at the minute with with the change into EVs. There's so many more opportunities to change the way that cars are made, and the offering that they give you, that it's just a perfect time to change things up. And I think including women, in the industry, in design and marketing, etc, is just the perfect place to start. Really.
Imogen B: Yeah. And I think that's where it really does. You know, one of the root causes of this is how our women represented within the industry, and how does that manifest in the design of these vehicles? And anecdotally, one of the things think, what if you're designing, you asked all women to design a bike seat for a man, you might not get an optimal design, necessarily. And one of the things I have say about the Ioniq 5 that I think is absolutely wonderful, I don't think this would have been why it was designed that way. But because you don't have this sort of central, like consoley bit, you've got this like really easy entry point to just put your handbag on the seat without sort of navigating various obstacles that sit between the driver's seat and the passenger seat. And it's those sorts of things that I think that's more serendipity that it is intentional. So I think you're absolutely right there. Claire, I'll come to you with our next question. We've opened up the discussion in around the fact that we're all evangelical about the transition to EV, we know that we're not there yet in terms of you know, new registrations are not 100%, but they are improving. But we're also nowhere near parity when it comes to female representation both in terms of sales and within the EV industry, and the question is, why is that? And how could we start to bridge that gap? And we've just heard from George, and I'm going to ask the same question to you.
Claire Miller: I think when we think about your folks who buy cars, and then the way that like, sales, messaging and sort of media has traditionally been targeted, there's a lot more kind of variation within the genders than there is this binary of male and female. So I think actually making it more accessible, lots of information, you know, easy to digest, you know, maybe not necessarily the geeky end that I personally enjoy a lot. And making it way more democratic for everyone to learn, actually opens it up to lots of folks who haven't been consulted before. And that very much includes women. But it isn't just women. And so I think actually thinking about this from a through a different lens, and making it way easier to educate folks and learn about how these vehicles work, how charging works, that benefits everybody. And therefore, this is not about, you know, us versus them or say a real sort of binary. This is about democratising access to information that everybody needs. And so that's what gets me excited to think about it from that perspective. You know, it's not just a, I don't know, maybe it's overly stereotyped, but doesn't necessarily feel like it from where I've been coming from for my life, which, as you know, vehicles are for certain people, interest in cars is for certain people. And media is sort of serving up messaging in a certain way, that yes, that works for a certain group, but not for everybody. And therefore there's lots of space to go out. And that's gets me excited about what lots of you are doing, actually, on this on this podcast today.
Imogen B: That's so interesting, because I say it's not, you know, the sort of naive perspective would be show more women in advertising material, which is definitely an improvement. But actually, it's all about that messaging, all about proving that this is a way to reduce faf, become more accessible, all of the other additional ancillary benefits that you also see. But that is missing from the sales material, perhaps in the sales messaging. Linda, how do you think that should change? What's missing from that messaging? Sort of specifically?
Linda Grave: Well, yeah, I think Claire's got it spot on there. I mean, who reads that small print at the bottom of the car head, I mean, who even understands what it's talking about most the time. Now, you've got grammes of co2, you've got, WLTP, you've got you've got so many acronyms at the bottom there. And we've got, you know, focus on the speed that a vehicle can go from nought to 60 Is that relevant to most of us? You know, I just, I've never really got that, I'm probably more interested in how quickly it goes from 60 to nought, you know, focusing on the safety elements of the vehicle. And yet try to communicate that properly. Well, so thinking that only 26% was it or have people ever buy a new vehicle? So first of all, you've got your new vehicle sales, and you've got a used vehicle sales, and there is that 'who trusts a used vehicle sales person?', you know, I mean, that's, that's a habit has been thrown in, isn't it? We've got to simplify the message, we've got to stop making it too techie. And that's not dumbing it down. That's just, you know, making it accessible. And talking about things that we, I mean, focusing on females, I think we're really practical. You know, you want to know what you can fit in the boot. We've all talked about our hatchbacks. We're always thinking about, you know, can I fit the dog in the buggy that this set me alone, my mother was an antique dealer. And we, we were only allowed to get a car if we could fit a chest of drawers in the back, you know. So it's always been that sort of practical element.
But you know, we need to get the message across correctly. But one of the other things I'd feel about the car design for women is the seatbelt. And I actually have an issue with the seatbelt in the Tesla Model, why I've got the seat up as high as I can get, and I'm five foot four. So it's not that small, but it does go across my neck. You know, I don't know how injured I would be in an accident. I don't actually want to find out. But you know, there's there's other things in design that needs to be thought of, for a women or smaller people. But sorry, I could bang on I'll stop.
Imogen B: No, I think there's two really interesting things there. There's sort of the technical aspect, which we don't, no one really cares unless you're a proper kind of car geek about those stats is: tell us the outcome. What does that actually mean? How is that going to improve my life or make something easier or better, or what have you, but there is also the design aspect and I think this is something that I have also experienced on the Model Y as much as it it works perfect. Eat. And you know, the charging network is super reliable. So many aspects of it are just absolutely brilliant. I do feel continually as if I'm borrowing someone else's car. And that the dimensions of it were built for somebody else. And conversely, in the Honda ENY1, one is an I'm five foot three is the first car where I've sat in the right my preferred position and seat, I can use the left elbow rest, because my seat isn't so far forward that I no longer have access to it. And I can see the entire display on the screen through the wheel because the wheel isn't blocking my view. And it's the first interior of a car where I've been like this works for somebody of my height. And it doesn't feel like I'm borrowing someone else's car. And I was really astonished at how obvious that felt to me and how going back to the Model Y like, this just feels too big. Not designed for me. Yeah. But Sara, I wonder, you know, on that kind of technical aspect, what you do is inherently a very kind of technical spirit. But it's all about translating that technology into something that feels not techy and not difficult. Are there sort of specific requirements that you see from a male audience versus a female audience? Do you see that kind of see? How do you accommodate those two different audiences? Perhaps?
Sara Sloman: We've talked about some definitions back in the Greenfleet award, where we were trying to get the bottom of what accessibility really means. And is that accessibility for the vehicle to be able to use the charger? Or is it accessibility of humans to be able to use the charger, or was they actually about accessibility of technology and how to make the charger work in the first place. And I mean, we were lucky to have a few Tesla of people on this call. And that's something that we've all noticed is you just plug in and it sorts itself out within the the lease. So all of the charging that I do sub 20,000 Miles goes through the cost of my lease, so I don't even have to pay for the time that I use the supercharger. But of course, there are so many other charge points out there that we are all reliant on. And even if we have home charges and do high miles you're going to encounter or they go out in the wild are charging out in the wild. And you'll have to very quickly decipher multiple payment options. And I think that's what annoys me particularly and something that Kate Tyrell who we're hugely fond of she founded Chargesafe and talks about a lot is adding in another layer of complexity like hard to access payments and technology just makes people feel blasted, intimidated. And there's an element of vulnerability that I'm proposing that if I have to use my iPhone, which is also my car key, and I can't just quickly do a simple Apple Pay checkout process, then I started to feel quite insecure holding my phone there whilst I download yet another app, as you say, and and although this new legislation doesn't discriminate male, female or anything, it's all about just making things smoother and as simple as possible by offering multiple methods of payment. And that's something I'm very focused on for 2024 is trying to get to the bottom of use case versus application. So if you've got some charges that aren't really very publicly accessible, and don't have to comply with the regs, it might be worth costing up if you can instal a contactless reader anyway, because the number of users who come to your site may well pay for itself over the period of time that are not seeing a difference between male and female or other users. It's really just about making it as simplistic as possible for any human. And that can even be to the font size that can even be to what the what smartphones, it can be loaded onto so it's not to discriminate against people who have only got new phones, you know, the app doesn't work on an older phone, for example. So we really got this, we've got this tighter, we're really thinking carefully about how to apply years and years decades of payment experience to what's essentially a very innovative and emerging landscape and sort of taking everyone with us. And I always say I just wanted to pay just let me pay, there must be a simple way to pay. I just need to charge my car thank you very much. Goodbye. That's what you want to do.
Yeah, that's absolutely I think that's hit the nail on the head and picks up on some of the points that Claire's made that it's about, it's not as binary as I posed the question, it's about making it accessible for everyone. And actually, that comes from if you can absolutely nail the most difficult use case, and make that as seamless as possible that makes everyone's lives infinitely easier. But it reminds me of you know, the campaign around lowering curbs that was led in the, in the US by people in wheelchairs. But actually, if curves are lowered for people in wheelchairs, that makes life easier for people wheeling suitcases or people with other forms of reduced mobility or prams. And and and and, and, and and so, yeah, is that what is that most sort of critical use case and how do you make that sort of a priority and then everyone can be brought on that journey. But George, you've been to some amazing event this year and including, I think I'm right in saying that She's Electric events.
George T: Yes, that's right. Yeah I think I would managed to get myself into every single event that was on this year, I even managed to get a press pass for me and my two little boys to go to Carfest. Oh, wow. That was a real eye opener. And that was fantastic. That was absolutely fantastic. But yes. Into between myself and my business partner, Michelle Breffit it. We've been to four of the She's Electric events across the country this year.
Imogen B: And what are the kinds of conversations that one of the really kind of common questions that you pick up on,
George T: Definitely, within the panel sessions, when it was opened up to questions and answers, it was definitely a lot of talk about batteries, battery life, how they're made, where the cadmium and the lithium come from, that are in them. And the general longevity of having an electric vehicle. So the sustainability question was one of the biggest ones that we got. After that it was definitely charging anxiety.
Imogen B: That is so fascinating, I would absolutely have no have guessed that it would be the kind of supply chain visibility of batteries, battery lifetime, where the materials come from. And I guess that kind of speaks to the fact that if you're thinking about transitioning to an EV, it's also potentially because you have that, you know, you're environmentally mindful, you're thinking about is it actually better for the planet? Which of course we know that they are. How fascinating and what is the kind of insensitive takeaways had people come away thinking like, I feel like that is the right decision for me, or has it sort of sparked more scepticism? What what's kind of been your sense of the atmosphere in the room?
George T: I think I think the panel's dealt with the questions quite well. And a lot was explained about like the new lithium mine down in Cornwall, etc. So but also comparing it to the life of an of ICE vehicle. So you can still buy a secondhand car, and it will still have a fantastic battery life on it. And that's the whole point, especially with all of the fleet vehicles that came from the first wave of fleets going into electric, they'll starting to come on the market now. So you can get yourself a very reasonably priced to used EV that still got an amazing battery life on it, that will still last you a good 10 to 20 years if you continue to drive it. So explaining that kind of thing definitely moved, switch the mood of the room when when there was what what we felt to be negative questions when people were worried about battery's, charge anxiety. And with payment anxiety, I think, which is what's happening now is, is something that needs to be worked on. But as Linda said at the beginning, we've just made great, great strides across this last year.
Imogen B: So and I think that is something that for 2020. For the second hand, EV market, it feels like we're going to start really, really seeing the impact that that will have certainly in terms of Evie adoption. But that charging anxiety question. I mean, Linda, do you think it's it's fair, that that still exists? Or do you think it's the kind of once you experience driving an EV that anxiety goes away? Or or is it a valid concern?
Gary C: I think I think it's 100% fair, I think, when you're driving a Tesla, so we know if we're using the, you know, the Tesla of takes you to the test or charge stations anyway, that's where it wants you to go, we have the easiest life we plug in, we don't need to do anything. That's the kind of mark benchmark that everyone needs to get to for the rest of the vehicles and the rest of the charging. But of course, it's it's not so easy. Because Tesla built their cars, they built the chargers, they know where every single car is and what it's doing at any time, state of charge of the battery, simple. Different charger manufacturers, different vehicles are trying to get their information in one place, it's not going to be as easy. So I think plugging charge is probably a little way off. I'm pretty sure Claire and Sara both have more technical detail on that. But we definitely have a problem out there with some of the charging infrastructure. And we can't pretend we don't. It's, it's complicated. Sara and I were just talking about this, the RFID card symbol is exactly the same as the contactless payment symbol. But in two different places on the charge point. There's signage high up on the, you know, you have to read so many different areas that the charging, you're not sure which which socket, you need to use. Various different things that you've got to get your head round for each different charging operator. So you will very quickly find your preferred ones that from a reliability point of view. And I know George has had a bad situation the other day, which really highlights how bad it can be when you're desperately just trying to get home. When you have a good experience. Of course you don't really talk about it, just get on do it and head on home. But we we do need to do more and there's lots of us trying very hard to improve we've what we've got, and make it a little more streamline across the whole of the networks. It is getting there, it's still early days, you know, we've got lots of legacy stuffs out there. But the networks as ranked by Zapmap, which I think this ranking is a good thing, people want to be at the top of that. And they are, they're doing really, really well, they're doing a great job. So we've got many, many good networks out there doing great work, some that need to step up a bit. And other new ones entering the ground. I mean, this is there's, I think, three new networks that have entered this year that I know of which have got big money behind them. So there's, there's a lot happening that should improve, we just want them to make it simple.
Imogen B: And that kind of there's that map ranking Chargesafe UK, and we've already mentioned, just phenomenal to hold people to account and to reach that standard. That makes it so much better. But if we weren't, you know, we've spoken a little bit about designing in usability and accessibility from the outset and designing for kind of all stakeholders and users. So if we were to design the most perfect charging experience, what would it look like? And Claire, I'll start with you. Well,
Claire Miller: Linda, as sort of alluded to it, but I think personally plug in charge. So you for all the things that Tesla doesn't get right in some of their experiences, what they have done exceptionally well is create an experience around charging, which is unmatched by anyone else, which is you're giving you information about the charge before you get there preparing the battery to be fast charged, when you get to the charger, seamless experience, you only have to plug in, everything else is dealt with, you know, the financial transaction and all of that kind of data on the back end. Now, that only exists for Tesla right now in that very sort of end-to-end experience that lots of the CPAs are getting there and trying things. And the next generation of charging experience is called plug in charge. And plug in charge means that there is something on the vehicle. And there is the ability to read that on the charger. And a customer. If you associate a payment method, then the car can speak to the charger when you get there and the car in charge, you can swap details and you get that Tesla like charging experience, but you get it everywhere. And so part of the new regulations that a few folks have mentioned on this podcast already is kind of underpinning that by requiring all charging networks to enable roaming. But that's only part of it, we need the vehicle manufacturers to be enabling their vehicles. And we need the ChargePoint manufacturers and the and the sort of software providers to enable it as well. So I think it's going to take good sort of three, four or five years to see that become completely mainstream. But it is coming. And I think it's coming fast. So yeah, I'm excited to see that. And then how other services get built on top of that. Because that will be underpinning lots of other interesting, valuable, and also kind of just time saving and you know, practical improvements in the way that we use our vehicles. Just to Linda's point earlier, which is, you know, women are often if nothing else, very practical, we've got a lot going on. And we've got a lot of things to hold down. And so, you know, the last thing you need to Sara's point is to be juggling a phone, you know, the wind is howling in its lashing rain and you're trying to plug in and download an app and there's no signal. So. So yes, I think plug and charge will start to alleviate a lot of those issues. But obviously putting putting roofs removes on chargepoints would be really awesome to have a very practical perspective.
Oh my god, massive shout of Fastned at this point, it does make such a difference. And it is something that I'm like, Yes, I would like that shelter. I don't want to you know, I'm going somewhere. I'm actually bothered to wash and dry my hair. Don't want to get wet. Thank you very much. I have just had a look at the time. And I cannot believe that we've been we've been chatting for sort of almost 45 minutes. So I want to kick it off. I want to round off this discussion by asking you one last question. And I think it's really interesting that everyone here on this call is either in a works in an advisory capacity, or is involved in some kind of community building, whether that's the EV cafe, or Women Drive electric, or she's attending this year's electric events. So I guess the question is, what value does that community bring? And what motivates you to kind of continue to share that EV message? And, George, I'll start with you again.
George T: I think for me, especially because women drive electric, we feel like we're in the middle. So we're working really hard with consumers to help them and engage them in the whole process of getting an EV from choosing one to salary sacrifice, insurance, roadside assistance and public charging. And the way that we can make that better for them is by having women on the other side. Because of the way that we think and what the discussion if you listen to how we're all talking about it, we want to make it practical. And we are - women tend to be more practical. And so to get more women into the industry, we need to talk about it more and we need. So I'm even working on my consumers to try and say, This is a fantastic industry. It's fun, it's new, it's fast. It's the future, why don't you come and join us? And then we can get more balanced in the industry, which will change up how we're sold to which will change the design, I'm beaming sorry, I sound ridiculous, don't I, but it will work. It's a completely circular thing, the way that I see it. And hopefully that should should make it better for everyone and make it a lot less daunting to to to purchase a vehicle or even start the search for one.
Imogen B: You say you don't sound ridiculous at all, but you can hear the smile in your voice. It's so wonderful. And that's the other thing when I see you at your events, you always have this enormous smile on your on your face. And I feel like it really helps make this whole industry feel as exciting as we know, as we know it is. But Sara, how about you? The EV Cafe is amazing. And but what do you think the value of that kind of community building.
It's invaluable. In fact, it's something that we're really focused on because we know that numbers well belief and with that it's not about bringing everyone with the same view we really challenge disruptive thinking and our sessions, we specifically tell people we do not come on the show to sell we will talk over new, we will get new off. Because what we want to do is really get to the root of issues and find ways to collaborate to sort of drive that forward, we've reached a really interesting point in our growth where we want next year to go what we're calling "On tour in 24'. To find those pockets of community who haven't yet had that chance to explore evey away from the kind of sales room floor where things feel quite staged. This is about real examples, real case study real improvement plans. And really underpinning that with commerciality. It's sort of a b2b platform at this point. And what we're hoping to grow that like the Fully Charged Show does so well, activity, break down most church walls and speak to more and more people. And it makes me being as well. Let me tell you the trends trends in the community. I'm forecasting something about this payment anxiety piece. And we know we started with range anxiety, but the vehicles have improved. We know we had charger anxiety but technology is helping us to not only locate paper charges, but see them working better when we get their fingers crossed. But this new one payment anxiety, we cannot fall down those first two pitfalls that we did. Payment in but it cannot happen. We have to work harder to make sure that we're sort of general swell the general public, but we don't yet have, you know, ad world or community don't have to experience that as making this simple and streamlined as possible. And that's only going to work if people are honest about what's going wrong. And stop trying to oversell solutions. When really I said earlier, it doesn't have to be a sledgehammer to crack and nut it can be a really simple, easy, safe and secure, bloody compliant does what it says on the tin type job and that, that that's my passion. That's what I really want to see in 24 and 25. And it all starts with us people in this group, the rest of us.
So 'On Tour in 24' has a fabulous ring to it that is extremely exciting. And I think so, so important that I actually, you know, we are transitioning out of the early adopters and into the mainstream, where a single bad experience could be the difference between someone committing to this technology and being very anti it and that payment sort of anxiety, absolutely, we cannot afford for it to exist. Now, Linda, you again, in your sort of advisory capacity, I think, you know, we've spoken a lot about how, perhaps women are slightly more practically minded. And in your kind of consultancy and advisory period, you're able to sort of do a lot of that sort of problem solving. Is that your experience? Is that what brings you sort of motivation to operate in this space?
Linda Grave: Absolutely. I you know, I'm completely passionate about what we do. We do need to bring everybody along with this. And I think for me apart from my consultancy work, I run an event, a very small scale event, which I've done for about six or seven years, and in the local community. So I'll run it at the Suffolk show ground and it's an EV Experience Day. And the idea is to get as many people like Fully Charged in the vehicles, you know, once you get somebody in a car on a private Test Track, and they can actually drive it around, you know, all the objections start to fall away. So I see lots of vehicles at events that are static. And I just think right, you know, it doesn't really mean anything to me like that. You've got to get in it and drive it. And once you do, then, you know it will really help so I'm quite passionate about getting people behind the wheel and talking to the dealer's, to the charge point operators, to the utility companies to everybody. Claire was one of my speakers last time and hopefully, Claire, I'll be in touch shortly. You know, we can talk about all the different aspects of owning an electric vehicle. And why it is easy, it's not complicated. And of course, by the time we run this event, we will have those used vehicles we've just been talking about, they will be affordable vehicles for everyone to drive. So I'm really passionate about that side. And then with my consultancy, hat on, it's dealing with the ChargePoint operators, new ChargePoint operators, councils, and everybody and helping them build infrastructure that is really fit the purpose with the right charge unit in the right place. And I think you know, once we get those few things, right, and Sara solves a payment issue for us. Happy days.
Imogen B: But I think some of the themes we've touched on are so fascinating, we've spoken about the design, and the need for design input accessibility, not just for women, but actually for those really critical use cases that make everyone's lives just that much easier. But I think the other things that we've spoken about as around that community building, and actually people need to experience these technologies to appreciate that they're not intimidating. And actually something that I definitely find in my sphere, you tell someone, your job, and they're like, Oh, is it? Is it going to be these? Do we really think that that's the way forward? You say, Oh, I'd be actually I'm gonna do one. And as soon as they say no, you're like, well, try one first. And then we'll have this conversation again. So Claire, I think just as a as a final quote from yourself, I think you are one of those people that just has this phenomenal ability to connect the dots and to connect people together. And it feels like that something that just brings you such joy in that you kind of piece this puzzle together. Is that am I correct in saying that?
Claire Miller: You are, yes, you're absolutely correct. I am now the one that's beaming, I feel if I seen Thank you.
Imogen B: Well, job done for a Monday, I think if I can bring a smile to your face. But in terms of that kind of that the role that you play in terms of bringing those dots together and kind of pushing the industry forward How critical is that? And do we get? Do you think that there are enough people who are making those connections between these different spheres,
Claire Miller: I think it's really important. I think the thing that worries me is that it's still very early days. And so yes, it's important that a lot of these service providers that we are all relying on and going to rely on more and more need to have like a solid foundation, and yes they to start getting to profitability, right, or at least some past profitability. Thinking about, you know, public charging operators is a good example of that. But it's very early days. And so I think, you know, connections and introducing folk and, you know, just just people who are working on kind of complementary technologies, or even people who are working on, you know, stuff that will be competing in the future, right now, you know, it's, we need all of it, because we need to go fast, and we need to electrify everything. And we need to decarbonize as fast as we can. So to me, it feels like really important if we can connect people along the way. And it builds community. And I think that reflecting back on what you said about you know, all of us that in some way are creating communities and contributing to those communities. For me, that's about connecting as many people as I can. Because mostly that's you know, gonna just strengthen what's going on in industry, and also to help bring people in as well. And I think that's the other thing that all of us on this podcast do a lot, necessarily, without thinking that we do it, which is opening the door for others, you know, being an example of role models that others and and showing that there is no kind of one type of person, one type of woman to be in this industry, thee's space for all we need everybody. So please come on, get on board, make the make all the connections you can yourselves but also bring folks with you.
Imogen B: I think that is a perfect and beautiful note to end on. And honestly, I think we could carry on for at least another four hours. So maybe we should do have this conversation again. But maybe next time in person and I'm with wine, be quite nice. In fact, just in in the chat, Sara totally agrees and the wine required. And with that, I am going to hand back to Gary.
Gary C: Thank you Imogen. What a fantastic discussion. Lots of things covered that I particularly liked - and again, this was one of the reasons that I figured that I wasn't the right person to host this was - the comment that you made there about getting a woman to design a bike seat for a guy I mean, I would never ever have come up with that sort of a an analogy. I also like Linda and her mother's chest of drawers and you know how you would fit that into the back of a vehicle. Absolutely fantastic. And it's time for a cool EV or renewable fig share with your listeners who wants to go first.
George T: And I will it's George here.
Gary C: Go for it.
George T: So there's a young lady called Lexi limitless. She's I believe she's 21 and she is taking an electric Ford Explorer, and she's circumnavigating the globe in it to show how you can actually move a vehicle around the world, that's electric, and she's having an absolute whale of a time. Obviously, everything isn't going smoothly. Not everything tough to come in this country. But it's a really exciting journey to follow. And she's on Instagram, and Tiktok, and all the rest. And it's just such a great - not only is it a car and the electric charging, but it's a woman doing it. So obviously, I'm a big fan.
Gary C: Fantastic I've got a link to that, I'll put that in the show notes as well. Anybody else want to add a cool EV, or renewable thing?
Sara Sloman: Me, me pick me. I mean, I'm not saying it's cool to everyone. But it's very exciting to me. So we talked earlier about the ability to have a contactless terminal on every single AC charger. But I've got a bit of a problem with this, not just from a sustainability standpoint, but a cost and value standpoint, too. I'm backing a company called Bright Green, who have invented some massive touchscreen kiosk that has enabled RFID and contactless within it. And the key is, we'll need one of those, the power the row of charger. So looking forward to seeing one in the wild. In the meantime, I'm just trying to explore its capability and really just check that it's exactly what we need.
Gary C: Fantastic anybody else.
Linda Grave: And mine's not new technology, I wanted to bang on about something that I installed in 2015. In my renewable energy business back then, which was floating solar. And I think, I don't know, I'm sure there's a very funny pun here somewhere about it coming to the surface or whatever. But I think floating solar is ready to really take off, because it's super efficient. And the one that I did check, before I came on this programme actually did is still floating and is and so installed eight years ago, and outperforming any of the rooftop solar that we did for them. So it's on a reservoir, it coincide. Its production coincides exactly, with the irrigation pumps. So its usage at that time of year is really, really high along with the production. So it's a marriage of usage and production at the same time, which I think is brilliant.
Gary C: Excellent. Claire, do you have anything?
Claire Miller: Yeah, I want to talk a little bit about stuff that Tesla talks about, that then sort of becomes more widely known about. So we talked a bit about plug-and-charge. And that as an experience is going to become more widespread? Well, there's there's two others that Tesla are looking at. And they tie in with a couple of the companies that I work with. One is around wireless charging. So wireless charging for Fleets. So I'm going to shout out Electric Green, UK wireless charging company, and Tesla recently talking about how they're going to bring wireless and sort of alluding to how they're going to do that. And they acquired a company who who do sort of wireless tech, and the other one is around a range extender. So the cybertruck - completely ridiculous vehicle but some people are going wild for it. And you know, got to push the boundaries, something that a feature that launched with the cybertruck. And by the way, if you haven't seen the cybertruck, just Google it and just kind of scratch your head about how crazy it is. Anyway, a feature that they've launched with it is an extra battery pack as a range extender. And also make it like even better kind of towing ability. It hasn't been shouted about but actually having an additional battery pack to make your range or longer or as, additional storage, I think is a really interesting feature. And you'll see that coming from a company in the UK called Tuel, which is about adding additional battery to vans for fleets where the fleet has to return home and it's might be hard to charge at home. So yes, Tesla are bringing kind of wireless and in range extending batteries. And actually we're starting to see that as products out in the wild. So yeah, 2024 is going to be pretty wild, I think for new categories, new classes and whole new ways of solving problems for customers and for fleets.
Gary C: Excellent. I saw chill at the London Evie show last week, or the week before whenever it was excellent solution. I think there's a big potential image and do you have anything?
Imogen B: Oh, yes, I've been furiously writing down the names of all of the other ones that have been mentioned. But mine is Candela who they do hydro foiling, electric boats. The P-8 is their sort of lovely speedboat. But the P-12. Is a hydro foiling, electric shuttle for you know, to be used as public transport networks on cities that have rivers in near waters and that kind of thing. But it's so beautiful. And it just kind of gives you that sense of this isn't just an electric boat. It's a boat that's been completely designed for the future and looks just sensational. So really looking forward to seeing that live in person.
Gary C: I'm a big fan of electrifying things like boats. And that aspect of of transport. I think it's it's the way forward. My cool thing is scientists from MIT have developed paper thin solar cells that can be attached to any kind of surface to convert it into a power source. The cells are thinner than the human hair and can be laminated onto four example, the sales of a boat to provide power while at sea or on to tents and tarpaulins in disaster recovery areas. They use electronic principle links via a technique similar to how designs printed onto T shirts. And they've decided that they're going to use a material called Dyneema composite fabric as the backing for it. So the cells themselves only generate half the energy per unit area of traditional silicon panels, but 18 times more power per kilogramme. Think of the uses absolute fantastic. Many thanks to everybody who took part in today's roundtable. Sara Sloman, Linda Grave, Claire Miller, George Thurman, and my thanks also to Imogen who ran the whole show, and made it really, really easy for me to just sit and listen, I like this. I might try and do more of these next next season. Thank you, everyone. And that's the show for today. Hope you enjoyed listening to it. If you want to contact me I can be emailed at the new email which is info@EVmusings.com I'm also on Twitter @musingsEV. If you want to support the podcast and newsletter, please consider contributing to becoming an Eevee meetings patron. The link is in the show notes. Don't want to sign up for something on a monthly basis. If you enjoyed this episode, why don't buy me a coffee, go to coffee.com/evie musings and you can do just that ko-fi.com/evie musings. Takes Apple pay to have a couple of ebooks out there she wants me to read on your Kindle. So you've got an electric is available on Amazon worldwide for the measly sum of tag tip or equivalent and it's a great little introduction to living within the electric car. So you've gone renewable is also available on Amazon for the same 99 P and it covers installing solar panels storage battery, and a heat pump. Wonder check them out. Links for everything we've talked about in the podcast today are in the description. If you enjoy this podcast, please subscribe. It's available on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. Please leave a review as it helps raise visibility and extend our reach and search engines. If you've reached this part of the podcast and are still listening, thank you. Why not let me know you've got to this point by tweeting me at musings Evie with the words. It's not just a guy thing. Hashtag if you know you know nothing else. Thanks as always to my co founder Simon. You know he's prepping his younger daughter for the world of personal electric vehicles. She's learning to ride an E scooter and the electric unicycle. It tells her it's so that she has freedom to go wherever she wants but in reality, he is looking to her to be a sidekick when he heads across to the continent next year
Imogen B: On tour 2024 has a fabulous ring to it. That is extremely exciting.
Gary C: Thanks for listening. Bye