The occupation is trying with all its might to break our hearts and to break us. A person

has moments of sadness and this is normal, but the fighter is the one who turns the sadness

into victory. And we are fighters for freedom. We rejoice and we grieve, but we don't break.

Welcome to Blueprints of Disruption. I am your host, Jess McLean. What you just heard was

a message sent to our next guest. Anna Lippmann, from her friend in the West Bank. She shared

it with us for the same reason it was sent to her, to acknowledge shared grief, while also

demanding resilience from one another. Continued resistance. We cover a lot in this episode

with Anna. She'll introduce herself in a moment. We start off though, by talking about the expansion

of illegal settlements in the West Bank and the violence Palestinians are subjected to

there. both by settlers and the occupation forces. We of course talk about Aouda Hathlien and

how the details around his murder, although deeply personal to Anna, do serve as a case

study of how ethnic cleansing is happening outside of Gaza. Together we wonder what this means

at a time where G7 countries, some of them, including Canada, are talking of recognizing

Palestine as a state, which is also happening while hundreds and hundreds of activists are

being arrested for supporting the very same thing. It's all very confusing, perhaps overwhelming.

So we do our best to make sense of some of it, to find the bright spots, and to emphasize

the impact the movement is having on our politicians, as well as the global position on Palestine.

be sure to check out the call to action for this episode. As always, it's in the show notes.

This one is a fundraiser. We really are encouraging people to do what they can with. Donate or

share, it all helps. Our show will be putting half of this month's existing or new subscriptions

towards supporting out as family, who we get to hear much more about now. Anna Lippman

is back in the studio. Welcome back, Anna. Thank you as always for having me. It's not an easy

time to be doing what you're doing. So I appreciate you taking the time to come in and talk to

us. And in case anybody's missed like, I don't know, the half dozen times you've joined us.

Who are you? Uh, yeah. Who am I? So existential question. I, uh, I organize with the labor

for Palestine. independent Jewish voices here in Canada. I've gone to Palestine, East Jerusalem,

the West Bank a few times to do solidarity work there and, you know, just out here doing my

best for Gaza like we all are, you know? And then some, Anna. Not just Gaza, but also the

West Bank. Absolutely. Yeah, that's primarily what we're going to talk about. And like she

said, she's been there a couple times, but probably more than a couple times. But it's,

uh, it's been in the news more so, which is good and bad. means like things are escalating,

bad things are happening, but it also means it's getting the attention it deserves as well.

Obviously we're focused on Gaza for obvious reasons. And, but it's just a different form

of ethnic cleansing happening over in the West bank, almost using like the old school pattern

of original settlements, you know, of just taking or buying is how some people will frame it.

Parcels of land and creating illegal settlements bit by bit. The confrontations have been increasing.

Am I correct in saying that? Like, would you say it's escalated since this infamous state

we all have to reference now since October 7th? It's escalated so much since October 7th,

but honestly, I think even In the last year, in the last six months, it's escalated more

than anyone could have imagined. But, but that's what we're seeing in Gaza too, right?

More than anyone can imagine. Absolutely. Yeah. And it kind of, you know, really maybe hit

home, not that it doesn't all, but very recently, Auda Hatheline? Yes. Excellent. Was murdered

by an Israeli settler. I've seen the video on camera that Aouda filmed himself. I hope you

haven't watched that. But yet the Israelis took his body and I originally reached out to you

because there had been an action plan to have his body returned. So not only do you want

to just explain a little bit whatever I am missing on that and then we'll talk about just

the broader implications and what this is kind of very reminiscent of in terms of how they're

annexing the West Bank. Yeah. Yeah. And I wish this was an incident that was unusual instead

of like a perfect case study of what's happening in the West Bank. So first, let me, let me

talk about Aura little bit because I'd be doing him an injustice if I didn't. I had the privilege

of knowing for only like three years, 31 years old, big major figure in his village, Um O'Hare,

an activist, not by choice, but by his identity, but also an English teacher. He was a father

of three young kids. He leaves a widow behind who's 24 years old. You know, he was such a

light in the village. And just to be clear, like the village is a place where literally

like, Aura has 17 brother and sister in laws. He has like, know, 15 brothers and sisters

himself and like a hundred cousins and they all live in this village, right? So it's really

like. his entire family. So on July 28, Aura actually sent out a text to a bunch of internationals

that morning being like, settlers are coming, they're bringing machinery, they're trying

to cut the water, we won't have water in our village, you know, please contact your congresspeople,

your MP, whatever you can do. And then the next update we got um, from comrades on the

ground there is that Aura had been shot in the chest, I think in the lungs, in the ambulance

ride to the hospital. He, he didn't make it. He, he died in the ambulance. And, you know,

let's be clear. It's not a settler that murdered him on video. We know his name. His name

is Ynon Levy. We know where he lives. Well, I don't put Trim down somewhere. Everyone

else knows. He's been sanctioned, right? Like this is not just someone known to you in the

circles. We have been sanctioned. Canada, UK, US under Biden, and the EU. He has an illegal

outpost that's a farm. We know everything about him. We have so many different angles. of

the video of him shooting. And mind you, when he shot Aouda, Aouda was standing in the community

center basketball court. He was surrounded by his mom, by young kids, by international activists.

And Yinnon was just shooting into a crowd of Palestinians, right? Prior to Aouda being

shot, Yinnon knocked his cousin unconscious. with the bulldozer, whatever. And that's

actually what had people trying to stop, know, and say, stop, like, we don't want this violence

in our community. And Auda died defending the human right of water for his community, for

his children, for his mother, his children, I said that, his cousins, you know? When the

day that Auda died. His cousin who was knocked unconscious was arrested, as well as a couple

other cousins. The day after the two international activists, one a nurse and one a former army

vet who gave him CPR and immediate medical treatment, were deported. That day as well, Yenon was

sent to house arrest. That night, they raided the village. and arrested all like in total

in two night raids they arrested 20 of Aura's cousins and then you know the day in between

they did those two night raids the courts decided that there was not enough evidence against

Ynon to hold him so he walked free. And then the day after that, as they're holding onto

Aura's body, as the women in Umm al-Khair, including his wife, his mom, his sister, are on a hunger

strike, asking for the body back from Israel, because they don't want to give it back unless

he's buried in Yatta, which is the nearby city. And unless they do it in the night with 15

people, again, Aura has more than 15 people in his immediate family, right? So the army,

no, Israel held onto his body for 10 days and then finally allowed him to be buried

in the master plan area of Umocher, which is technically a different place than the village

of Umocher, but it's nearby and there's building allowed there. So they were allowed to dig

his grave. When you say they allow building there, it's because they prohibit building

in the actual village itself. Exactly. Because they don't have what's called a master plan.

they're technically... We know the master plan. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And all the buildings there

are under demolition orders. It's hard to imagine that after all we've seen that this

still enrages me. You know, just hearing each individual story like this, but just... Because

this is common too, right? Dictating how folks can grieve, holding the bodies of Palestinian

prisoners who've been arbitrarily detained in Israeli Zionist prisons. But I don't know,

we got to hear this story a whole lot more, thankfully, because of the international profile,

Aouda helped create for himself, again, not out of choice. by out of duty, I suppose,

in helping to create some of the footage or whatnot for No Other Land, which again helped

draw a little bit of attention, hopefully not away from Gaza, but while people are, you know,

watching, showing exactly how they take bit by bit. And just through telling a bit of this

story so far, I'm going to let you go on, I kind of interrupted you, but you've just given

so many examples of control. denial, slow erasure, like nothing like what we're seeing

in Gaza, but like bit by bit, like you can't build here. I can come and take your water

at any time. Like we see that in Gaza too, but just through, this is through a different kind

of settler violence aided by the IDF. So you said they a lot, but I think because they

seem one in the same, right? Yeah. Yeah. The illegal outposts you talk about, you know,

Levy having just brought up a point for me too that in think May of this year, 22 more

settlements were approved or whatever created by the Zionist government there. And when

you see the locations, you can see them being even more bold with placing these and some

of the patterns are. They set up an illegal outpost, which is then deemed legal through

these constant creations of settlements. So I just, I guess it was just me trying to draw

on the geopolitical or helping understand how the Israeli government is creating these situations

on purpose that then manifest themselves in horrific ways. But yeah, it's just like a

sampling of what's been happening. It is. So I imagine justice is being demanded. Are

you expecting it? Like an arrest? You know, the women of Umo Heir went on a hunger strike

to demand out his body back because they wanted to give him a dignified burial that he deserved.

Right. I think that, you know, I would say I'm an abolitionist, but God, do I want justice?

Do I want this guy behind bars? And the women did not ask for that. Cause I think they know

a little better than me that that's not gonna happen. But it's just so sick and maddening

when they're trying to grieve after getting the body back and the construction that started

the day that Aura was shot, is being continued by Ynone and his friends, and then in the middle

of their grieving, they finally cut the water line. So as they have Aura's body back, they

lose their water. And today, Ynone's brother-in-law, Issa-har something, was there this morning

stopping them with the army from repairing the water, right? And so we want justice, but

I think people who have never been to Palestine have never really seen this level of oppression.

Justice is really for them, dignity, agency, humanity. And I think for me, I would love

it if they moved him to some other part of the West Bank or whatever. So he could not

just stand outside, his house and terrorize his children and widow as he's doing right

now, right? And so, you know, God, I want justice so bad, but what does justice even look like

in that situation, right? I think you said it best that it has very little to do with, you

know, the idea for arresting or charging. the Israeli courts, you know, trying to serve it

up in that way. Those same courts just deem a lot of these settlements legal after a while,

right? So, yeah, I can understand that not being a big focus considering the grand scheme

of things, especially when you're in a situation where you're being encroached by settlers attacked

and having your water cut off, like whether they arrest one of them or not. really probably

wouldn't impact your day other than that personal kind of terror that you're talking about, you

know, that repeats itself over and over. I said before we started recording, know, trying

to get people caught up on what's happening can be a little bit overwhelming. But at the

same time, it's like, we can't stop talking about it, right? We can't stop updating people.

So I do want to kind of get a little bit of your feedback on some of the developments.

I don't know if I have a sufficient word to describe what seems to be, hopefully a moment,

like it seems more desperate. However, it seems really ramped up for lack of, know, like it's

just, everyone's focused on Trump and what he is doing, but also like on our end, which is

somewhat related, you know. Netanyahu just announced what we have been telling everybody

he was doing from the fucking get-go. mean, Francesca Albanese is just... had, like, the

platform that she had, and still no one would listen, right? Like, it's just so very frustrating

that he would completely annex and occupy Gaza, like, again, or in a different form. And he

can do this just, like, standing in front of the UN without getting arrested or... laughed

out of that space at the very least or shunned in any way. It's appalling. But this is happening

at the same time that he's facing a little bit of pushback. A lot of states are looking to

recognize Palestine, finally. When I told this to my mom, I'm like, these are like the last

ones, by the way. When you look at a map of the world, most countries recognize Palestine.

The UN recognizes Palestine. It's not really helping them much. I'm not going to deny them

statehood, but I don't get super excited about the fact that a couple more of the G7, well

these will be the first of the G7 to finally recognize Palestine. But it seems like a weird

spot to be in, and I wanted to maybe check in with you. You seem to be obviously in the thick

of it, and you're seeing people maybe celebrate like, but Carney's going to recognize Palestine

now, so we should. We should kind of be grateful and see this as a positive sign. You can probably

hear my skepticism. I'm trying my best. I'm not doing a very good job. How do you feel

when you see that? So it's not just Canada, France, Australia, and the UK in September.

It's got to wait till September for some reason. I'm not sure. That feels really nefarious to

me. Like something's going to happen either before that or right after that. It's they've

timed it together. What's going on? Yeah. And I think there's some also conditions to recognizing

it in September. Do you know them? don't know. Well, I don't know all of them, but I do know

they're looking to disarm. They want a disarmed Zionist Palestine. Right. So this is like theoretically

a two state solution, but really to me feels ill defined. But maybe that's just because

I haven't read enough, but I do know like That's a lot where my skepticism comes in, where they're

trying to disarm the people undergoing a genocide and not those perpetuating it. But I was hoping

you would help make it sense. Yeah. But it just doesn't make It doesn't make sense. You I think

like, you're right. It's such an, it feels like such an overwhelming time. think for those

of us who haven't had to deal with, you know, three generations of knock-ba. We're not really

prepared to see the world stay silent as this live stream atrocity is happening, right?

I think, of course, we can't lose hope, we can't stop. And we should see this movement by Carney,

by these other countries as a ray of hope that they're filling the heat from us, right? But,

you know, it's so beyond silly. to talk about recognizing a Palestinian state right now in

September on conditions. And, you know, if I, a graduate student who's poor and living

in a bachelor apartment can understand that Palestine will be ethnically cleansed by September

if we just wait? How can Mark... Karni and the world leaders stand there and say that they

don't understand this, right? We have seen the amount of death that is happening not only

in Gaza, but all over the West Bank, in East Jerusalem. We know that not only is this destruction

happening to people, but it's happening to institutions. There's an immense fear of... And rightly

so because anyone who is Palestinian in Palestine and saying something is going to be visited

by the secret police. Right. And so what, does it mean to recognize a Palestinian state?

Mind you, Gaza, West Bank and East Jerusalem don't connect to each other. So it putting

aside the logic, what does it mean to declare a state? when everyone who was part of that

state has been killed already. And we are seeing right now the ramping up of this carnage.

We've heard what Netanyahu said, and you know, honestly, the things that are happening in

the West Bank, they really feel worse and more urgent than they did six months ago, right?

And I get the sense that Netanyahu and the Zionists and the Zionist project are like,

let's see how much of our plan we can get done by the, you know, six month deadline that the

world has decided to give us. And why, why do we think that's acceptable or, or anything

to celebrate? It's something to build on and demand more of our government, right? I think

the timing of it was a little. suspect as well, you know, with the release of the report.

I think that was our last episode at this point. Or maybe, maybe you have to go back two episodes

to hear the folks, you know, revealing the fact that while Carney has been telling us that,

oh, we've got an arms embargo, sit down, like I can picture him at that rally. He's done

it a few times, though. They all have. And right when we're going, actually, here's the

receipts. It was perfect timing for them to be like, OK. will recognize a Palestinian state

at the same time declare that these are essentially war crimes, or gross violations of international

law denying aid. love how they're just so, I know we're in a starvation period and like

that is what you mean, like the end is seems so incredibly near. but to just be focused

on that and not the fact that We're sending them weapons to do it. Like it doesn't make

any sense. Yes. And we still are declaring that the occupation can stay, right? We're demanding

even that Palestine come to the decision that we realize it's been an illegal occupation

for 75 years. But, you know, we went out of this genocide, so we'll just have to accept

that. it's incredible. Honestly, and I think a lot of Canadians are really struggling to

grasp this because you know, I see a poll and it's talking about, you know, who's going to

call it a genocide amongst Canadian voters and Even though they're so fucking awful.

I was still surprised that 51 % of cons are like it's not well like yeah 51 % of con voters

like it's absolutely not 7 % of NDP voters say it's not a genocide, but 25 % of them wouldn't

commit to it either way, making it 32%, a third of NDP voters will not call it a genocide,

you know, despite everything available to them. But liberals, liberals had better numbers than

the NDP, although 9 % of them say this absolutely isn't a genocide. we like, we can see who they

are, right? They've got a handful of MPs with, following that are certainly perpetuators of

this, but 17 % of them only were unsure, yes or no. So, but 74 % of them voted for a liberal

party while saying this is a genocide. My government is complicit in it. My liberal government is

complicit and I still went out and voted for them. 74 % of them acknowledged that. I maybe

they won't acknowledge our role in it, but where do think the Canadian public is at in

terms of holding these politicians accountable? Do we anticipate people being placated by the

Palestinian statehood? I do see it rippling amongst folks. Like, I'm getting a little bit

of pushback going, you're never happy. You know, you don't actually want peace there.

Now you're denying the most progressive thing to ever happen for Palestine in Canadian government.

You know, I guess I'm always a critic, but I do worry that sometimes things like this,

like the ceasefire, you know, we'll have people thinking that they've got a government that's

actually on our side or on the right side and like they're fucking not, like not even fucking

close to that. And we've laid it all bare for them. So I'm very frustrated right now with

the state of the Canadian public to see those numbers. That's the first time you're hearing

those numbers, yeah? It's just an, you know, it's one of those Angus Reed polls. So when

everyone says you can't believe the polls and the numbers are skewed, but there's something

there, you know? 74 % of liberal voters, you've got them calling it a genocide. Their government

won't. So what? Like, are they not calling in? Like that isn't enough pressure. Have we not

created enough? What do we got to do? Yeah. And I mean, I think look at how far the Canadian

government has come. in the last two years, Like, when ever would our prime minister

be talking about Palestine without, before October 7th, right? Or even like, be talking about

anything but standing with Israel and defeating Hamas before 2024, right? And so we're nice

Canadians, the liberals, like we think like, We, we vote, we say we don't like this and,

and Carney says, well, let's recognize a state. Um, and that's all like so happy, right? But,

uh, you know, I think we have to remember one, like what this arm's embargo report tells

us, right? Like Carney says he's going to recognize a state, but he's also putting bullets on

my commercial flights. Mind you, I'm not allowed to put a battery pack underneath the cargo,

but fine, right? Or water in a container. I haven't flown in a long time. I don't even

know if that's still a thing, but it was like... Finding that out, I was shocked. Not just a

moral failure, but like, isn't that a safety issue? It is, right? So, yeah. If that's not

enough for the Canadian public, I think it's important to remember that like... We in our

own lives would never accept the bare minimum of what we deserve, right? And so why do

we think it's okay to accept the bare minimum for Palestine? The bare minimum being feeding

the people and not killing them, right? Like we here in Canada, who take our health care

for granted, who take all these things we get for granted, public parks, like do the children

of Gaza not deserve a park and happiness above just being fed and kept alive, you know? Like,

no, Bob Rae would respond, what about the hostages? I don't want you to answer, like, I'm not

asking you to answer that, but that's still, still, that was last week. They're still responding

to like pleas from, NGOs saying these people are starving and he's going, yeah, but what

about the hostages? One of the things, like I get your, that it's a ray of hope. is a sign

that like we're forcing them to take stands they wish they never ever had to take. But

at the same time, you know, talking to the authors of the report, one of the goals was like, create

a political crisis. You know, they couldn't say that in their press conference. So they

got to say it on our show. Like that is their intent is go with this. make them, I don't

know, make it, Kearney resign, force an issue, force something so explosive that they have

to really jump, not just give us incremental things. And anything that takes that heat

off makes me mad, you know, like even, especially if it's crumbs, like statehood, like recognized

by Canada, doesn't mean that it'll exist now, like it'll be realized and manifested like

what it means like autonomy and sovereignty and self-determination. All that still won't

exist for them. And yet, yet I don't want to pull any heat off of it, right? Thank God people

are still outside of Jolie's house. Honest, I know folks are like, oh, well, I've got NDP

supporters coming at me going, well, shouldn't everyone live in peace and without harassment?

And I'm like, no, no. While calling them, I'm not even going name this person, while labeling

them as genocide supporters. So this person is, understands like that it's genocide happening,

that the Libras are perpetuating it. that they are genocide supporters, but yet they should

be afforded a home that they can just lay their head peacefully every night and cash in their

paychecks while being complicit in what we're watching in 4k. So then I get really upset

about any partisans and we won't go down that rabbit hole, but it still shocks me that like

folks would still afford peace to people that are committing a genocide, but yet they would

look back at the Nazis. and say, this is what I would do if I was living and I would

have done this and I would punch a Nazi and like they've got the shirt. And it just doesn't

manifest in real life for them, you know? But there is a lot of people pushing a lot of envelopes

too, right? Like people are risking it all. So that's not to say that there isn't successes

being done and a movement being grown sometimes. I forget to mention that while I'm talking

about my dismay, but it is incredible to see like in the UK, example, thousands upon thousands

of people go into an action knowing, maybe they did it, I don't know, we could talk about that,

that they would likely be arrested. They were challenging a new terrorism law that made

Palestine Action a terrorist group, an entity, and that any public display, probably private,

of this group is charged under the terrorism law with a possible 14 years in prison as the

sentence. And so folks went in, sat cross-legged, wrote all the same thing on the placard. I

know you this, Anna. This is for anyone who might have missed it. You know, the sign said,

I oppose a genocide or the genocide or just genocide, not even the. could be any. And I

support Palestine action. They hauled 500 of them away and charged them under this. under

the Terrorism Act. My mom said, but you said there were thousands there. Why didn't they

all get arrested? And I was like, well, sometimes you can't get everyone to commit to an arrest,

but they'll be there in a defiance and maybe they'll leave on the first warning or second

warning or, you know, you need some people to do jail support. You need some people left

over. And she's like, no, they should have all been arrested, you know? And I go, I get it.

I get it. We'll get there. But like, that's still incredible. You got thousands of people

to risk. You know, they sent out, Anna, they sent out messages ahead of time saying, they

knew this was going to happen, right? This was planned, it was public, they had made calls

to come here on August 9th, do this, challenge this law, and the police sent out a message

that if you got charged under this law, you possibly couldn't ever teach again and you

probably would never be able to travel to the US again. So they used like every level of

fear and intimidation and then dedicated incredible police resources. I think like maybe they

thought you can arrest us all, you know, when you cross the street at like 30 of you at the

same time, you're just like, the car has to stop. Maybe they had that mentality, like

there's just no way, maybe they'll pick a few of us off. it's like, no, they're willing to

just jam full their prisons to quell the issue, but make it make sense, Anna, they're doing

this at the same time that they're going, we're going to recognize a Palestinian state, but

don't support Palestine action. That's terrorism. Is this meant to just confuse the shit out

of us? So we just don't know which way to point? We are experiencing levels of fascism in

Europe, in North America that are being exported from Israel, from Zionism to keep us quiet

because of this mass movement. Because when you see dismembered babies, it makes you want

to do something, right? And they're losing the narrative. We see the shifting and I think

they're throwing anything at the wall that they can. You know, we've seen this with South

Africa too, right? We ourselves, the people have to push our governments and push our governments

and they will do everything they can to feed us crumbs and hope that will go away. And

it's, you know, the UK, the people that put their body on the line. It's them that say

no, like, again, we want dignity, humanity, freedom for Palestine. You know, talk about

terrorism. again, South Africa. We know that terrorism is a social construct. It's... Like

all crimes. Yeah, right? I don't think it's meant to make sense. I think it's meant to

scare and intimidate people. And, you know... We don't want to be homeless. We like to keep

our jobs. So it works when you're basing it all on, you know, the threat of kicking people

out of capitalism. It's a big threat. is a big threat, especially when you have an economic

crisis happening at the same time. But I feel as though intentionally, unintentionally, this

issue has become an acceleration point for all of us, thankfully. Right? It's obviously

we have some building to do because they're like fucking foot to the floor at the moment,

the fascists. Yeah, it's really swelled the ranks of the movement. And I think starting

to reshape people's idea of, you know, what is acceptable forms of resistance as well.

The amount of support for Palestine action. Hopefully, you the Palestine issue is enough

to draw people in. But once you start infringing on civil liberties at home, a whole new crowd

will join in. Liberals just hate that. Even if they just wanted to sit on Palestine, like

whenever they are forced to do this, it triggers even more and more of a resistance from us.

there's just so many boundaries being pushed right now on indigenous rights at home. And

I think you're just migrant rights, tenants, they're all kind of hitting this tipping point.

I know there's a mass mobilization call coming up soon. I will... you. I'm like, the details

will be in the show notes because I don't have them in my notes now, but it's like a convergence

of different movements. It's really impressive to see and I think that's being followed up

by a date in September where they will come together into the streets. So again, I'll link

that in the show notes, but... Like that's what we need, right? You know, we've already been

talking about 40 minutes, but I have to ask you, you know, where the fuck is labor? Not

that it's your responsibility, but like, can we vent together a little bit or maybe you

can give me some positive notes. And one positive note is I'm gonna channel Rachel Small. and

the opportunity she calls the discovery that, you know, lot of the shops are Unifor shops,

for example, that are making the arms. This is a great opportunity for Unifor to, you

know, make that statement into action. How is that happening at the rank and file level?

What's it feeling like for labor for Palestine right now? You know, again, labor has such

an important role to play that we saw from South Africa, that we've seen from all these

struggles, right? And To me, it's no coincidence that Chris Smalls was on the last flotilla,

right? Because if you want to bring labor and Palestine together. Who better? Exactly, right?

Yeah, and so it's really important. And Labor for Palestine, have this, and we're very happy

to launch it around the Arms Embargo Now stuff, a call for cargo kills campaign. This idea

that... We as Canadian labor, as Canadian workers, need to stop handling anything that has anything

to do with Israel. Yes, please. And, you know, again, as you said, like, we know from the

Arms and Bargainow report what airports, what unions, all these bullets and other, you

know, not real weapons. Components. non-lethal components are being sent out. But I think

it's also really important to remember that BDS, Boycott Divest Sanction is a holistic

movement, right? And so like, no, we don't want to touch bullets or send bullets, but also

like we need to stop bringing in Israeli oranges. Like CUPW needs to stop touching mail from

Israel. Right? Like these, these are the ways that these actual calls can be made into action,

not just for that small sector that actually works at arms plants, but for everyone. Right?

Like I will commit on camera right now, not that I have before, but you know, I will not

teach any Israeli based articles, anything like that in my classroom, right? That's my

job as a teacher who believes in hot cargo, right? And so really thinking about the ways

that like you in your workplace can actionize this, because we can, it's not that hard, right?

And it makes you feel good to do something. And we're seeing like little snippets thanks

to TikTok as well, know, like Israeli tourists being denied service. You don't have to be

unionized to take part. There's many, many ways you can make it super uncomfortable for Israelis

to be able to travel abroad. There's lots of examples of people doing that. And I think

former IDF soldiers or vacationing or returning home IDF soldiers are getting even more nervous

because of the amount of work being done by folks that like the maple. where you can now

find, I think it's identifyasoldier.net, it'll be linked to. So many fronts, right, to add

pressure on the Israeli people to create their own political crisis, but in the end, would

it still be a Zionist Israel? Like, it's still, it's such a mindfuck trying to find the end

of the tunnel. And yes. Just so much coming at us at once too. And I worry, I can't help

but worry when I see, like I don't mean to be such a downer, I'm sorry, but when I see the

UK, going like, that is not that far fetched from happening here. The Sammy Doon Network

was declared a terrorist organization here in Canada and I'm on their mailing list. So I'm

immediately thinking, okay, if I'm on their mailing list, I've got comrades definitely

working with them. you know, what does that mean? What else could they do with that label?

You know, could be aggravating factors in people's cases and all of this, just the way that they

could weaponize that. And then you see, oh, well, there's another way it be weaponized,

like just voicing support for outlawed groups become a problem. And that, you know, that

can have a really chilling effect on people or not, or not, right? Like, cause... You

know, there's so many great examples too of networks being created. And I know you're part

of one of them, of folks who come together within around being arrested. And the Toronto

Legal Community support that goes on, hopefully it's not unique to Toronto and it's being replicated,

you know, just to ease the burden of being arrested or to find rays of hope within that kind of

level of persecution, prosecution, both. I think if the cons were in power, I think if the liberals

are pushed enough, it could be a tool, but liberals just don't might not stand for it.

But I could see the cons behaving like starmer, which is ironically not ironically at all the

labor, the labor party. That's not a red flag for people right now. I don't know what is

honestly when it comes to electoral politics. But yeah, like you seemed astonished when I

was like, is it 500? It was 500. Like what number wouldn't have astonished you? Like, are you

kind of Are you surprised by this level of police action in the UK? They're kind of digging

in on this. Like it had high publicity of 90 year old women being hauled away by cops and

you know, a blind man in a wheelchair. You know, they had great or awful optics around

this. And I think it kind of surprised me and the people I told about it that they had dared

do this. You think there'll be enough flow back that they questioned doing this again?

I hope so. I mean, we to look at what's everywhere else, right? Like there was almost 20 people

arrested at the last rally in Toronto and we weren't even like, you know, celebrating Sammy

Doon or anything like that, right? Yeah, right? I worried about that when I didn't hear from

you this morning. You know, I was just like, oh no, I hope Anna didn't get arrested again.

My mom's like, is she back from the West Bank? You know, and I'm like, yes. Yes, but it doesn't

mean she might not be waiting for bail. But yeah, like I joke, it is incredible, though,

the increase of arrests and that it's not daunting anyone is the best part. Yeah. Is that where

you were going? Yeah. And I mean, like, if we don't get angry about the 500 people arrested

in London, next month, there's going to be 500 people arrested in Toronto. Right? you know,

think about things like, to me, like the bubble bylaw, these other things that are just such

a curtailment of our basic civil liberties, the things that liberals, cons, anyone who

says they're a proud Canadian holds up as like the light of what it means to live here. Right?

So You know, I think these people really need to ask themselves, whatever your, frankly,

whatever your position on Palestine is, like, you understand you'll be next unless you speak

up, right? Well, they're all up in arms. They, the right wing, you know, they, we use a lot

of they. They're all up in arms because, you know, they can't walk in the woods in Nova

Scotia or some shit. I don't know. I don't have the capacity for this really, but they're like,

He's a veteran, how dare you fine him for openly breaking the law? And I'm like, excuse me?

What? Are you guys for real? Like, that's the right you're going to live and die by to

be able to walk through the woods? Go the fuck ahead then. You know, but the hill that they'll

mobilize around is so manufactured. They say they are, they understand that Canadian is,

Canada's about freedoms. I hope you heard. facetiousness in my voice. But they don't act

that way ever, right? It's the same on freedom of speech or, you know, freedom of expression

here in Canada. Like, for me, not for thee, I think it's the expression. But yeah, eventually

they're gonna go too far because, you know, it's the same people too that are all up in

arms about their convoy or ringleaders getting seven years and shit and... But that's also

why we caution. You say... even when I ask you about justice, like I'm an abolitionist,

right? We don't actually cheer for more arrests. Just a comment too about those terrorism laws

made me think back, because I'm old enough to remember and to have been politically engaged

when, during 9-11 and the aftermath and the secret courts and the exceptions that were

made for people charged under terrorism acts. And that makes me, like, you know, I know

that there's this extra level. It's not just you're arrested. You may face 14 years and

go through all the regular arrest, nonsense, bail, outing, all that horrible stuff that

goes with being arrested, but you fall under a completely different set of laws. And it's

almost like your rights are completely stripped once you're charged under terrorism acts.

I do worry about that, but I also feel like screaming at people like, supported that. Well,

you thought that was kind of a Canadian thing to protect our airports, to protect us from...

Islamic terrorists, right? Like this was a valid reason to curtail all these rights. And

this just feels a little like they're shaping it in the same package, right? It's still Islamic

terrorists, right? That's the label. I'm sure you've been charged with supporting Islamic

terrorism, right? Like how many times? So the fact that it's packaged all the same way

as 9-11 is troublesome to me, but I have a feeling this generation is way too savvy. Every generation

younger than me seems to take less shit from the government. You know, mentally they don't

have as much deference each generation. So I am hopeful that they're just creating they.

Like the circumstances for their own demise, right? You're just gonna push too far. I think

you have, right? Because you coupled this with ICE, us having to see that and them experiencing

it and all of the other like, whoa, you went that far? Like how? I hope I'm not being naive.

hope like, yeah, they've just gone too far where people are like, no, no, no more. Yeah, so

I hope that there's a lot of pushback to those 500 arrests in the UK because if it just fizzles,

that's a terrible precedent. We've kind of run the gamut too of like Palestine. I've

made you talk about everything. We started off, you know, on the West Bank and specifically

talking about Aouda's case and his death, but ended up going a little bit of everywhere.

Is there anything we didn't kind of bring up that you think folks should be paying attention

to or knowing about? Two things I'll mention. One, there is a fundraiser for AODA that

I'm going to send you that and two, you know, I think because we've talked so much about

just how terrible this moment feels, want to share a text that my friend who lives in

the Northern West Bank sent to me on Friday when I told him my heart was breaking over

Aldo. And I think he'd want everyone to hear it and to really heed it, you know? He says,

I understand, but you have to know something. The occupation is trying with all its might

to break our hearts and to break us. A person has moments of sadness and this is normal,

but the fighter is the one who turns the sadness into victory. And we are fighters for freedom.

We rejoice and we grieve, but we don't break. And you know, if he can say that as, as the

army is outside his door, to me, that just felt really, really powerful. Yeah. I got a

little bit braver. That does mean something coming from somebody. inside the occupation,

know, experiencing this firsthand, but you don't break. Don't you feel like you break

a little every day, More than anything, but you know, when Ghassan says we can't break,

I say you're right. just a little bit, right? A little bit, but then- put it back together

with joy. We're normal, right? We are human. But, you know, I think like what, you know,

what he's saying is like what the occupation wants is to rob us of our humanity and to break

our hearts and part of the resistance. And, you know, I listened to Ahed Tamini say this

in a podcast like yesterday, you know, we- Part of the resistance is not letting them take

our humanity, not letting them take what makes us human and turning us into nothing better

than them, right? Aura said he wanted to see an end to the occupation without suffering,

right? Yes. Yeah. He was described as a radical humanist. Yes. Amongst other things. And you

know, one of the things that Aura always says is, you know, you can't give up hope. You can't

live without hope because it's... It's hope that keeps you going under such harsh conditions,

right? And I know that Aura wants a better life, not only for his kids, but for all the kids

in Palestine, right? And for that alone, I think that's what's gently little sewing my

heart up, even though it is certainly cracked, you know? Yeah. I'm glad you shared that too,

because sometimes we're lacking in ways to mend ourselves as we break a little every

day watching what we're watching because yes, we absolutely can't lose hope. And I think

any sign that you've lost hope is when you do stop. But I think there's a lot of us that

as soon as you that happens, it doesn't sit right. So rest becomes very difficult to get.

You feel undeserving of it in a way. I think sometimes when I'm complaining about stupid

stuff, I'm like, I am not dodging bombs and finding food for my children. I know my problems

will still matter, but it really fucking puts things into perspective in terms of like what

I'm capable to do with my energy in this moment. Because I'm not in that situation, like at

all. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no, like, yeah, there's like biological needs that need to have been

for us to function and, know, emotional ones too. So, um, I very much appreciate you kind

of coming in at a time where, you know, maybe this, maybe this sticks you up a bit. Maybe

I wasn't too much of a pessimist or asking hard questions that this isn't something you have

to recover from. you, Anna. Always a pleasure. That is a wrap on another episode of Blueprints

of Disruption. Thank you for joining us. Please share our content and if you have the means,

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