Hello, and welcome to another intriguing episode of the Data Driven
Podcast. Our special guest today is doctor Julia
DeGangi, a neuropsychologist who brilliantly bridges the gap
between our biological neural networks and the synthetic ones we often
chatter about. Today, we veer slightly off our usual
digital path and delve into the fascinating world of natural neural
networks that's your brain. Doctor Daganji will illuminate
how these organic systems influence our ability to tackle life's
complexities. So whether you're wrestling with AI
algorithms or your own synaptic connections, today's episode
promises to enrich your understanding of both. Join us as
we explore the vibrant intersection of technology, neuroscience
and personal mastery. And now, without further
ado, let's welcome doctor Julia Deganji.
Hello, and welcome back to Data Driven podcast where we explore the
emergent fields of data science, artificial intelligence, and, of course,
data engineering. For some reason, Andy has
dropped off the call. I think he's having technical glitches. I will blame the
eclipse on that. We're recording this on April
8th, and, with me today is doctor Julia Deganji, who is a
neuropsychologist who shows you how to use your brain to
do hard things. Now normally, we talk about artificial neural
networks, but I think today, we can kinda drill in on the the neural networks
that we all have or at least we all hope we have, natural neural networks.
Welcome to the show, Julie, doctor Julie. I'm really
glad to be here. Thanks for having me, Frank. Yes. We contribute a lot to
the eclipse today. It's already a strange, strange morning.
On on the way to drop my youngest to daycare, like, just some car randomly
pulled out in front of me when it saw me coming, and I'm like, what
is going on? So,
so you you have, a
book that's coming out, or is it already out? The book was released in
September, late September of 2023, Energy Rising. It was released by
Harvard Business Review. So it's a book on the neuroscience of leadership.
Very cool. And I think it's interesting where,
a lot of the the obviously, artificial
intelligence draws a lot of inspiration from neuroscience and kind of
cognitive studies. What are your thoughts on this
AI? I right now, we're kind of in the middle of a hype wave, but,
like, what are your thoughts on AI just in general?
That's a really big question. So I I am a neuropsychologist,
which means I'm a clinical psychologist with specialized expertise in the brain,
and neuropsychologists study sort of the domains of the brain. So
we study information processing,
decision making, emotional inhibition, emotional dysregulation,
attentional processes. And so one of the things that I think is really interesting
is, you know, the the the power of machines
have already outpaced in so many ways the cognitive abilities of the
human brain. Right? So if you think about memory retention, memory
storage, memory retrieval, attention, processing speed.
So what I, you know, I am most fundamentally, I've done a lot
of neuroscientific research, a lot of fMRI, EEG,
looking at human stress and human resilience. And
one of the things I'm really interested in, I I find this to be obviously
a very uncertain moment, and I'm I would love to talk to you about uncertainty
in the brain because I think that piece is so important. But while
it's an uncertain moment, I also feel incredibly optimistic. You know, what I
think is actually gonna happen is as the machines continue to
outpace some of the classic cognitive abilities of the human brain,
there's gonna be tremendous pressure on our emotional
capacities, our our emotional capacities to deal with uncertainty,
our emotional capacities to regulate, our emotional capacities to have
trust, our emotional capacities to connect with each other. And so
when you think about evolution, species only evolve
when there is intense pressure on the species. So what I feel
incredibly optimistic for is I think we're gonna unlock extraordinary
capabilities of human emotional and relational
intelligence due to all this advancement in AI.
Wow. That's interesting. So you have a very optimistic view of what
it means for humanity? You know, I think like any you
know, most of my work really focuses on stress and trauma, and energy
rising is about the relationship. You know, I it's about
leadership, but it's about the relationship fundamentally between what I call emotional
power and emotional pain. So I really believe
that struggle, so challenge, problems,
even pain sometimes, is egregiously misunderstood.
So do I think that these moments of intense stress on our
social systems, our occupational systems, our cognitive systems is
gonna be easy? Absolutely not. But I think when we position
ourselves to really understand what's going on and specifically how the
brain is wired to meet these moments of uncertainty,
I I feel I feel deeply hopeful. That's good to hear.
And and I think what's interesting is as someone who I've been in the
technology space since, well, longer than I care to admit.
But, one of the interesting things we're seeing now is a lot of
layoffs happening in this field, and that
it used to be that a career in technology was always golden,
always roses, you know, wonderful things, big tech, blah blah
blah. But now I think people are feeling uncertain in their careers for the
first time. I'm old enough to remember the dotcom crash, so this
this this rings very familiar to me. What do you what would you
say to people who are facing uncertainty now?
Like because there's obviously, I think, a clinical aspect to what uncertainty does to the
brain. I mean, I'd like to unpack that, but, like, what can people do kind
of as the drivers of their brain? I know that's
probably not the right word, but as the conscious what you're saying. So let's let's
have a conversation about the neuroscience of uncertainty.
Mhmm. So one of the things that I think is is so powerful about energy
rising, and it's really received I think I've I've been really kind of,
pleasantly surprised by its reception. You know? So my work on emotional power is uncovered
now in the Wall Street Journal, CNBC, Fortune, Forbes,
HBR Magazine. And the reason I think is, like, yeah,
sure. My credentials are really strong and and my I think my
scientific expertise really kind of brings a lot to the table, but what I really
think is happening is these and and so much of energy rising is
about how leaders can navigate uncertainty. I think it's really
resonating with people. So one of 1 and one of the premises of energy
rising is this, and it's a little bit counterintuitive at first. It's
that your brain wants to focus
on situation after situation after situation.
So this thing happened on Tuesday. I got laid off from
that job in 2007. This person said this thing to me on
Wednesday. That thing's gonna happen next Thursday. So do you see what I mean by,
like, every situation is kind of a a new problem to be solved
onto itself? This is an incredibly episodic. I'm sorry. Yes.
It's and it's an incredibly inefficient and powerless
way of really leading our lives.
So all of our our all of the meaning in our life, all of
the meaningful consciousness, and I'd be interested to hear what your response is
sort of a a tech expert. All of the meaningful
consciousness in our lives, all of it, rises entirely
on the energy of emotion.
So when I say to people, do you have a good job?
I don't know. How do you feel about it? Are you a successful
leader? I don't know. How do you feel about it? Do you have
enough time? Do you have enough money? Have you achieved enough? When
All of these questions are fundamentally mediated by
emotional circuits in the brain, feeling. Feelings of sufficiency,
feelings of disappointment, feelings of anxiety, feelings of hope, feelings
of satisfaction. So when we come to
uncertainty, it's very easy to say And and by the way,
like, these things, you know, I I certainly am in the work as
well, so I know how hard this can be for us as human beings. But
when we come to uncertain situations in our life, in our jobs, in
our homes, in our marriages with our kids, it's really easy to say,
like, oh my god. I'm freaking out about this this specific thing.
But the brain is meeting the energy of
uncertainty. And when I say energy, I'm not talking metaphysically or
metaphorically. I'm talking your brain is quite literally a neuroelectrical
machine. K? Emotions, thoughts, there are chem neurochemical
processes neurochemical electrical processes. So in
order to understand how the brain responds to uncertainty,
we gotta talk about what what happens when we get uncertain. So I think the
best way to describe our relationship with uncertainty is your brain is
basically allergic to it. I'm gonna tell you a really interesting
study that I think really elucidates a lot. So this is not
my study, but I think it's still a very powerful study to talk about. So
these scientists bring people into the lab, and they say, okay. You're gonna be in
one of 2 conditions. You're either gonna be in a condition where the machine is
gonna count down 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, and you're
absolutely going to get a shock, or you're gonna be randomized to a
condition where the machine's gonna count down 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, and
you may or may not get a shock. Now if we were really
I I use this in air quotes because I think it's silly. If we were
really rational human beings, we would all choose to be
in the first condition. I'm sorry. We would we'd rather be in the in the
second condition where there's a good chance that we could get away without getting an
electrical shock. But people statistically
prefer to be in the condition where they are absolutely
certain they are going to get a shock. Really? What
does this what does this tell you? Well, I think people like to kinda, like,
laugh and roll their eyes and say human beings are so irrational. Human
beings are not irrational. The brain is the most extraordinary machine on the
planet, and this experiment tells us something very powerful. There
are moments in our lives where the pain the
emotional pain of uncertainty is more
painful than actually getting a physical shock.
Interesting. And the the part that kinda tickles me
about this experiment is, you know, these people are showing up to do these experiments,
you know, at the University of Iowa, you know, the University of, you know, New
York University, UCLA. Like, people are going into a lab
for 30 minutes. In other words, they know they ain't dying that day.
It's a really safe, controlled environment. So if you so even
in this really controlled environment and by the way, we did have these electrical shock
machines in my lab. And as as the name suggests,
the shock is very painful. So even
in a a contextually very safe,
reasonable environment, people are still saying, give me
the shock, then give me the experience where I have to
sit with my own feelings of uncertainty. Wow. If
you transpose that out into the real world where the stakes are so
much higher, our relationships, our jobs, our
careers, our sense of self. You can see
just how powerful this energy of uncertainty is
and why it's really quite important that we learn to handle it powerfully.
That's interesting. So do you think we're running towards certainty or away
from uncertainty or some combination, or it doesn't
matter? Yeah. I don't know that I think that that is a meaningful distinction, but
I will tell you what I do think is so meaningful. If I had one
word to describe all of my work. Right? I've been I've been really put on
this planet to talk about the brain,
emotional power, and emotional pain. This is I just some of us find our calling.
I really have found mine. If I had
to give one word to describe all of my work, I would say either
counterintuitive or opposite.
Okay? So a very useful way so if I keep saying the brain is a
machine, we you know, our cell phones are a machine,
Computers are machines. I think a really powerful question is, like,
okay. Well, what what does the machine do? Like, when I pick up my cell
phone, I know I can text people on this thing. I can call. So what
does this what does this brain machine do? Your
brain is in the business. It is a pattern detection
machine. K? So it is literally
bringing you through your life going apple, apple, apple, fill in the
blank. I predict it should be an apple.
Now you can see that space between apple apple apple fill in the blank
is what we call uncertainty. It just means
it's agnostic to meaning. In other words, it's just empty. It's not
good. It's not bad. It's not scary. It's not happy. It's just
empty. But the future, by definition,
is uncertain. So the brain
is gonna say, okay. I'm gonna meet this this empty space, this emotionally
agnostic space, and I'm gonna predict. And if it was apple,
apple, apple, apple, 1700 times already, I'm gonna predict that
it's gonna be an apple. Now could it have been a banana?
Sure. Could it have been a cup of coffee? Sure. Could it
have been a puppy? Sure. But the brain is gonna predict
what it it's gonna superimpose the past on the future.
So when we want this is such a big point I'm gonna make, especially
for leaders and people who are really, like, thinking about the well-being of other
people. If we want to make
powerful changes in our lives, on our teams, and our organizations,
we have got to break the pattern. And in the breaking
of the pattern, your brain will say that is
wrong. Do not do that. And though
because the brain is more fun it's it's firstly an an engine
of feeling way, way before it's an engine of feel of thinking,
when your brain goes to lead in a new way or try a new thing
or basically be different, the sensation, the
emotional energy in your body is going to feel
like bad, like anxiety, like dread,
like fear, like stress. And if you as a leader don't
intelligently know this is emotional intelligence is thinking intelligently
about emotion. If you don't know how to meet these sensations that
first and foremost start in your own body, you're not
gonna be able to lead anybody anywhere because you're not even gonna be able to
lead yourself. Wow. That
that's a good point because I know when I'm feeling uncertain or I'm feeling
confused. And this this impacts a lot of things. Right?
Not just leadership, but I would say also sales, which I suppose is a kind
of leadership. If you're trying to sell and you're not certain of the
product, I think we've all been in those situations where we've been on the other
end of that equation where we're being sold to and the person's not clear, and
you could smell that from a 100 miles away. 100 miles away. You know, I
always paint myself into a corner. I sometimes say, like, I should stop using
this term leader because you're right. It has, like we all have this, like,
coding around what's, like, the the CEO of a 40,000 person
company. I, you know, as as a neuropsychologist, I think
have a a very powerful and and sort of radical definition of
leadership. Leadership is quite simply my
own ability to use my own energy
to have an impact on my own life. So we're
all leading our lives. How good we're doing it, how bad we're doing it, that's
a very separate question. But the reality is whether I get up in the morning
and take over the world or get or refuse to get out of bed in
the morning, this is still how I'm leading my life. And I
think a lot of times what we try to do is we we forget that
the thing that's ultimately driving our lives is our brain.
So that we we get a real I always say the brain is the most
powerful machine you will ever loan own, so operate wisely.
So a lot of times what we try to do as
people in relationships, and this this relates to your sales
point, is we try to get other people to have
we don't we might not be conscious of this, but an emotional experience.
But we're not actually having that emotional experience. So in other
words, I hey, Frank. I need you to believe this, but I don't believe
it. I'm brought into large corporations. I I coach really
senior leaders. I work with entrepreneurs all the time. I do. And I would
say the fundamental question people start to ask me
is how do I get these other people to behave differently?
How and it'll say things like, how do I get them more engaged? How do
I get them more motivated? How do I get them more interested? How I'm sure
you can you can relate to this. Right? Not just not just at work, but
I'm just thinking getting my kids to put their laundry away. Like Oh,
we could yes. And what's so beautiful about the brain is it sits at
the top of the hierarchy. It's the most upstream thing. So if if we can
get the neuroscience of relationships that work down, we can get the
neuroscience of our marriages to work. We can get the neuroscience of our parenting to
work. We get the neuroscience of our social behavior on social media to
work. So my point here, though, is that a lot of times what
we're saying to people is, like, I need you to believe, but I don't believe.
Right. I need you to be motivated, but I'm not motivated.
I need the I need you to be more honest. But I'm if I'm
really honest, I'm not being transparent. Or
else, these people, they're just so uncooperative.
Won't cooperate, while failing to look at plenty of clear
examples in my own life where I failed to be cooperative.
Now, here's the truth about what we know about emotional energy,
is we know neuroscience tells us very clearly that emotions
are are universal and primary language. We came all came
into this world speaking natively a language of emotion. That's how
we communicated from the second we were born. K? And
we understand as herd animals, as mammals,
that emotions are a thing of contagion.
We coregulate with each other. We catch each other's emotions like we catch a
cold. So plenty of times, the the
salesperson will be confused or bored or this is a
big one I see if I'm being really honest because I do a lot of
work with sales and entrepreneurs, is they don't really believe it.
Well, how in the world are you gonna get somebody to catch your
emotional energy if you don't first feel the fire inside of yourself?
That is an excellent point. That is that mean, there was another one
of the the sales gurus that I follow, and and you you work with the
this crowd. You know, there's there's kind of, like, different schools of thoughts and different
directions and different personalities. You know,
he he points out that if you are yourself in sales and you're
successful, you tend to be an easy person to sell
to because you're always looking for something. Like, the way
he phrases it way better than me, that's probably why he has his own private
jet and beachfront property and stuff like that. But, but
Who is this that says this? It was, Jordan Belfort, actually.
Most famous in the well, you you nodded in recognition. But for those who don't
know, the inspiration or,
behind the the the movie Wolf of Wall Street. And the
way he phrases it was pretty, like, you know, because I'm an easy person to
sell to, but he contrasted that with his father who was
not. And he's a his father was someone who was very hard
to sell to. Right? So he kinda says, like, if your barrier or,
the exact word was something along, threshold of action is
low, you're a very easy
person to to get into the sales world and you're easy person to be sold
to. If your barrier to action, threshold to action is
high, then that's the opposite is true.
It's it's it's totally true. And what I what I want people to see here
because I think it makes it you know, theory is no good
if this theory only works on a Monday
when there's a lunar eclipse that only happens every 40 years at
exact it's like who gives it. Right? So theory is
the theory is more powerful when it works
across more contexts. So what you did the example you just
gave with Jordan Belfort in him basically saying, like, part of the reason I'm
a great salesperson is because, like, I both I I'm willing
both to sell and to be sold to. You will see the
same energy in other leadership dynamics at work, and you
see the same energy in homes. Like, I think the classic one
that people can, like, almost laugh because we can all resonate with it
is how many times has someone shouted at you,
you start to get upset and, like, someone says, do you just need to calm
down? It's like never in the history of
human beings calming down has someone shouting calm down
at you actually got you to calm down. Why?
Because what it doesn't matter the words coming out of your mouth. I mean, you
you wanna talk about emotional intelligence versus, artificial
intelligence. It does the the words coming out of my
mouth are like a secondary or a tertiary language. And you know this is
true because plenty of times, you've had someone say,
I'm sorry. Yeah.
I heard those words coming out of your mouth, but that felt like
the furthest thing from an apology. Because once
again, emotions are the native and universal language
of the human being. You see? So
and if if we're serious about building something of meaning in our
life, we gotta tell the
emotional truth, and we gotta know what to do because this is the other piece.
So energy rising is is the book again that I just wrote, and I think
it's really an extraordinary book because it shows people how to really work
with their with their emotions. On the good days,
on the days when things are working, the days when people are listening, the days
when people are buying, I don't really need any help. There's just enough momentum being
generated. And There's just enough
momentum being generated. And if I'm really honest about it, not that I didn't contribute
to that momentum, but a lot of other people are paying into
my momentum. You see? When my kids just get in the car, when I say
get in the car, when my customers just buy, when my etcetera, etcetera.
Yeah. But you were, like, centered in, not for lack of better term. You were
centered in that, like, get in the car. Yeah. Right? And I I've
noticed even even dogs do that too. Right? I have bunch of dogs and, like,
they can tell when I'm serious and when I'm not.
Right? Oh, right. The kids can too. Well, that goes back to this idea of
emotions being, like, the this energy of contagion. When I really mean it, get
in the car. There's, like, a different frequency that I emit
as opposed to when I'm like, can can you it's like more of a
question. Right? Would you kindly go in the car? Yeah. People
think it's a good idea to get in the car now. Right? Right.
But the the piece I wanna make here is that when when
we're having good days, when we're in our good feelings,
things there just tends to be a natural flow. So if we're
interested in power in our lives, there is a fundamental
question. And, guys, this question is so powerful.
It has the power to change the direction of the world.
Who do I become in the energy of my my painful
emotions? Who do I become when I
start to get triggered? Who do I become when I start to get anxious? Who
do I become when I start to get stressed? Who do I become when I
start to get afraid? If you don't have an answer to that question,
you are at the mercy of
these kind of emotional storms.
Emotions are both to some degree predictable. We we can have
a somewhat controlling relationship with them, but they're like weather. You
cannot perfectly control them. So if you don't know how to answer the
question, who do I become in the energy of doubt,
uncertainty, fear, and stress, you can't
live a powerful life. That is very profound.
And I know we don't have all the time today,
but, one of the most impactful events in my life
personally was I was at the trade center on 911.
And I you know, when you talked about trauma, I was like,
I have a lot of questions. But but You have to
ask them. But, but no. You mean, you're right. Like, you know,
like, who you are in those moments when it's raining bullets is really
who you are. You know, when the weather is awesome and it's
great, like, I mean, anybody could be nice, but, like, when
when it's poor and hell and rain fire, like,
that's who you really are. Lincoln has a quote, like, if you really wanna
understand distributed him, you know,
give somebody power, then you really understand them. But I say no. I think you
really understand someone when it's raining bullets and who
comes out. Is it, I guess, a leader or someone
that or is it just someone who will just lash out everyone around them?
I think. Yeah. Yep. And then, you
know, I I think a really useful definition for leadership and,
again, like, don't get I want your listeners to not get attached to, like, it
doesn't matter if you're leading 25 people or it's just this idea
of, like, do I wanna be powerful in my own life?
Well, the most powerful person so my work, if I had to say, like, what
is my work, my fundamental expertise, it's really the relationship between the brain,
emotions, and relationships. So I work across all human relationships.
Entrepreneurs, c suite of big companies, individuals,
families, parents. And so there's
this idea here of, you know, like, if
I really want to be
have effect, have influence, have power
and, of course, I don't mean power over people. I just mean to be
authentic and to to really have a vision and understand how
to direct people towards my vision. I think the the most
the best definition I can give you for leadership is it is the
person in the room
with the most potent emotional signal.
That makes sense if we're herd creatures. I'm sorry. No. No. You go ahead. You
go ahead. No. It makes sense if we're herd creatures. Right? We're social creatures and,
I the I see a lot of my dogs. Right?
I I live with a bunch of dogs. I've always had dogs almost all my
life, and they always look to the
alpha. Right, and the alpha dog to kind of guide the,
the ship, so to speak. Right? And it's always the smallest dog
except for one. It's always the
dachshund, right, that kind of drives the bigger
dogs. I think true? Is
it always the the smallest dog that does it? I've only had in
my experience, the only I had an Irish wolfhound
who was kind of the alpha, and then ever the
2 alphas since he passed away have been the small dogs.
So I'm not really sure if that's the it's a a
true statistical mean statistically meaningful observation or
just the luck of the draw. That's really
interesting. But I think your point is a is an excellent one, which is, like,
how you establish your authority
so people can trust you, so you can lead people to the vision really
depends on, like, how convicted are you in your own energy.
Right. Right. That's an interesting point.
What what are your thoughts on
you know, right now, we're focused on the cognitive aspects of AI.
Do you think we'll ever get machines to understand emotions?
I think about this a lot. You know,
Here's what I'm gonna tell you. Okay? So in this really
this really sort of segues well with what we just talked about.
And you're hearing people say this in other ways about AI. AI
is only as good as the information that
we're able to feed it. So if I
say if I go because I do so in addition to, like,
doing a lot of work. I'd I my my work really has 2 branches. 1
is all my kind of business based work. This is, like, with the entrepreneurs, the
founders, the the, c suites, things like this. But then I
also have a clinical practice, so I I see patients.
If I I guess what I wanna say here is this, is
that if I go to see a therapist, a psychologist,
or whomever, and I'm sort of talking about
my feelings where peep where most people start, they have no
idea what they're actually saying. I could see that. They
kinda have a sense. You know what I mean? Like, they they they have a
sense that they're because what happens is people will come in and they'll say I'm
in a lot of pain. Make the pain stop. And they'll they'll
be able to say all the ways all the things that
hurt, but they won't be able to say what can fix it. So they'll say,
like, my spouse is doing x, y, and z, my kids, my
coworkers. Right? But if you say to them, okay. Well, what do you think the
solution is? They're gonna say, well, obviously, if I knew what the solution was, like,
I wouldn't be here talking to you, which but my point here is
that going back to this idea of,
it is a motion that is setting the temperature for this planet.
Until the human brain changes, until we're able to, like,
biohack and fundamentally change the human nervous system, Human
consciousness rises on the energy of emotion.
Now for most of us, we've got a lot of messages. If you think about
what's happening to the the brain during childhood, it's
astounding. It's you know, a 1000000 neural connections are being built
every single second in years 1 through 0 through
basically 3. I mean, just the amount of development that the the brain undergoes
is is astounding in childhood. And so we're getting a lot of
messages in childhood to stop paying attention to our our
emotions. And I'm not even saying catastrophic traumatizing ones.
Sit down. I I didn't wanna sit down. I wanted to stand
up. Wear this. I didn't feel like I wanted to wear
that. Eat that. I don't think my body likes that.
Keep your mouth shut. Go tell her you're sorry. I'm not right?
So from the moment we're born, we're getting a lot of messages. And even from
parents who I think, by a lot of accounts, do a really good job
to stop really having this deep emotional and somatic intelligence. Do you see
what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah. We're we're kind of shutting out
that that in in hate nature. And it it's really resonates with me
because I have, 3 kids. I have an 18 month old and,
a 9 year old and a 14 year old. So, like, I'm kind of seeing
it from Yeah. And I'm an I'm an only child. So, like, so the whole
sibling relationship thing is foreign to me. So it's fascinating
to watch that develop. And,
it's, you're right. Like, even this morning, I'm like, would you please get in your
car seat? Like, you can't. He did not wanna go in his
car seat today. But Yeah. But but the point here is if you're thinking
about who is programming the you know, like, how how do we and I don't
mean, like, Jim and Susie who are the programmers. They're not a but
it's like there's sort of a collective point I'm trying to make about the
planet is how in touch are we really
with sort of the somatic and emotional intelligence on our own body. So then if
I'm designing a thing to help people feel better, can
it? And then when people come to use it, then this is a
really big point. If I come and I and I cannot stress
this point enough, people will always start asking the wrong
question. I could see that. Right? Because it's
it people tend to focus on symptoms, not necessarily the
cause. And maybe that's even doubly so. Because they're
they're basically gonna say, like, how can I get my how can I get these
people around me to change? Right. You want the answer? That's that's
Save yourself, like, years of their you cannot.
So the question then becomes, how do I renegotiate my reality
if I assume these people, whether they're my customers, the people
on my team, my kids, my wife, are not it's not reasonable for me
to expect that they're gonna make a massive behavioral shift. So the very
question that people always start to ask is never the right one.
Right. So how do I interface with the machine? Can the
machine really I I don't know. But I would say if I had to
make a hierarchy, human emotion will be the fine if it ever
happens, it will be the final frontier. And that's what I think is so powerful
and so sacred about emotion.
Right. And I think it would be interesting to not not
not now, but, like, ponder, like, what was the origin of
emotion? Like, what what made that happen? Right? Because it's so
inherent to from what we can tell advanced nervous systems. Right? Like, it
just seems to was it the
was it the first driver? Was it the prime driver for what we
call intelligence or, dare I say, consciousness? Right? Because that's a whole loaded
word too. It is a loaded word. I I've
been watching a lot of, Star Trek The Next Generation, like, reruns,
and it's always interesting to see how the eighties
nineties impression of AI was compared to what we see
today. Right? So, you know, a big plot point, if you're
not familiar with it is the android character,
has no emotions. Right? So he processes things only from, like, a logical
point of view. And, like, one of his character arts throughout the show
is he's trying to figure out how to work with humans and human emotions.
Right? Like so it's kinda like it's interesting to see that.
Right? And then and then they they they and then there's another character
who that's all she does. Like, she's an empath. Right? She can sense
emotions. So you kinda have somebody who's, like, cranked to 11 on
the e IQ scale, and you have someone who's there cranked to 11
on the EQ square scale, which I I don't know how you feel about the
EQ term that floats out there in ether.
But it's interesting to kinda see them oddly enough in the show, they
generally don't interact. Now they think about it. But,
all of which is to say, I think you're right. Like, you know, will that
ever be something that machines can approximate?
Or do they have to approximate it to
understand it? And I say understand in the sense of be able to
process that as process that as input. Right. Right? Because all the
call centers, right, they hear when you're angry. Like, there's an AI in there
that supposedly hears here detects anger and then routes you to a person
sooner. So sorry. I cut you off. Oh, no. I think what you're saying
is really interesting. Yeah. So to your point, like, will what what
does it mean? What is and then also, there's this other question is, like, what
does relief look like? So and, you know, this is
a question I think we sit with in the field of of mental
health quite readily is, like, what does recovery look like? What
does healing look like? So if
I can get somebody out
of a a a bad specific situation,
that could be a win. What I tend to see, though, is there's an
enduring there's a very, very enduring underlying pattern. My favorite
quote in the world is everywhere you go, there you are. So I I can't
tell you how many people I have worked with who swear, like, as soon as
I change this job, it's gonna be better. As soon as I fix up my
house, it's gonna be better. As soon as I get a new relationship, it's gonna
be better. Well, you know, you get a you you change the job, the
relationship, the house, whatever. You get a spike for, I don't know, 6 weeks,
6 months, but then you return to the underlying pattern because
you're the one carrying the blueprint. Right? That's why I wrote energy rising. It's like,
what does it actually take to fundamentally alter
our nervous system so we can really live these in
empowering, meaningful lives that feel
like a relief. I think so many of us are just running around so stressed
out, so clenched. So, you know, could could an AI device,
like, help you solve the specific you know, you could talk to the thing now.
It's like my kid's acting up. What should I do? And it will it will
give you a a reasonably intel like, regulate yourself
first. And but the thing about human emotion is, like,
the the logic behind a lot of
the mindset mental health work is not rocket
science. You know, I do a lot of work in
couples. I do a lot of work in couples. And we say in couples
therapy, the couple has the same fight for 50 years.
This is true. It doesn't change a millimeter. The
details will be different, but the substance of the argument is always, you don't respect
me. No. You don't respect me. No. You don't love me. No. You don't love
me. So, you know, if I if I
don't change the underlying pattern, I'm just
gonna keep seeing it over and over and over and over again.
So how does the machine get into that? I don't know.
Well and I don't think people have realistically figured it out either. Right? Like,
you you described so many people I've known in my life,
you know, that they were always my
mom would call it chasing rainbows. Right? I get the new job. I get the
new car. I get the new house. I get this. I get that. Then everything
will be better. Ironically, my mom was one of the worst people in that regard.
God rest her soul. But she could always pick it out on other
people. Pathologically optimistic or what was your mom's opinion? It was more
it was more like everything's gonna be fine when this happens. Okay.
Yeah. Like, that type of when this happens, everything will be fine. And
then to your point, like, when you show up, when x
happens, things aren't fine. Like, you know, maybe for a couple of
days. But, like, it was something that another family member,
said that, you know, something to the effect of and
there's he said it way more crass because he's a member of my family.
And, he said something to the effect of, I bet
even in heaven, the toilets get clogged. Right?
The idea is that there's always a problem somewhere. Right? And just
I don't wanna attribute more deep thought than he warrants
or less than he warrants, but I think the idea was, like, look. Even even
if you have everything you want, something bad's gonna happen. And
then the the real question is, how do you deal with that? Do you
scream at the sky and say, oh, or do you just get a plunger and
deal with it? Right? Right. Well and also too, like, I think, you know,
I think there's so much power in in language. It's really kind of one of
the defining features of what makes our
species, humans. You know, we understand, like, why we think we have the
intelligence we have. So I think words really carry a a power and an energy.
I think what's really interesting is a a synonym
for problem is pain. So in
energy rising, I talk a lot about emotional pain. And I don't mean
excruciating trauma. I mean, my definition for
emotional pain is anytime your nervous system gets triggered in a
bad way. So you're frustrated, you're irritated, you're annoyed, you're stressed,
you're upset. You're bothered all the way up to you're enraged. Right?
You're sad. You're scared. I mean, all of it. So a a
real synonym for problem is actually pain.
Because until you have and this is why I keep saying
your consciousness rises on the energy of your emotion. Until
you have a bad feeling, what I call a painful feeling,
you do not have a problem. This is
a good story. Like it's clogged and you got you got no feeling
about it, like, in other words, you're like, oh, I knew you know, there's a
plumber coming tomorrow. It's good. It's gonna get fixed. You don't have a a meaningful
problem. If you get fired from your job and you're
like, you know what? I didn't really like that job anyway. Like, I actually kinda,
you know, I gotta figure it out, but I feel more relief than anything. You
don't really have a problem. So what I'm what I'm saying here
is human reality is defined
by the energy of emotion. And so when we want to understand our lives
powerfully, we wanna have powerful relationships. We wanna have meaningful
satisfaction. We wanna have an enduring sense of we're
okay, worthiness. This is the whole reason I wrote
energy rising. And I think, again, you know, energy rising is broken down into
what I call 8 neuroenergetic codes. Each one
is like a a blueprint for how to work with your nervous
system. There's tons of practical examples. There's case studies.
It's it's really quite I know I'm biased. I hope every author feels this way
about their book. I it's really an extraordinary book. Very cool.
I I definitely I see that it's available on,
Audible as well as Kindle and paper. And Noble. I'm
actually, this is I've been all I,
I've traveled all over the world to sort of talk about the book. I'm headed
to Copenhagen. I just got back from San Diego. I got back from Michigan. I'm
going down to Saint Louis. But, this this weekend, I'm doing my first this
is I'm kind of excited because I haven't done anything like this. I've done tons
of events, but, I'm doing my first book signing in a bookstore.
So I feel like I have a very yeah. Like, a very cute sort of
nostalgic feeling about that. Very cool. Very
cool. I, I definitely gonna pick up the audio book because I
spend a lot of time in the car and a lot of time in it.
Yeah. Yeah. Definitely won't definitely wanna check it out. And for those of you, that
are listening and you wanna check it out, you go to the data driven book.com,
and, you'll get one free audible book on us. And if you
decide to pursue that, then you help support the show.
Andy is nodding. He's, he's been quiet because he's had some we'll
just blame it on the eclipse. How about that? Because everybody's gonna blame it today
on the eclipse. But yeah. So Yeah.
No. I I really appreciate this conversation. I know it's kind of a bit different
from the usual, but I I mean, I I I think it's important because as
we build out more and more intelligent systems, the word loaded
language we use in terms of intelligent is not necessarily emotional
intelligence. And from what you're saying, and,
I do agree, like, emotional intelligence or emotions
are a even richer carrier of meaning
and depth and content than kind
of, you know, just good old fashioned left brained,
type stuff. And I I don't know. I don't I can't tell if you cringed
or whatever because I've had different people tell me, like, the left brain, right brain
thing isn't a real thing. That's that's probably warrants its
own episode and or book. Those things that we
talk about in the in the brain, and this will come as no surprise. Those
Those things that we talk about in the brain and sort of the the popular
vernacular, the popular press Right. It's it's aggressively
oversimplified, but that's okay. You know, it's like people think the amygdala is
about fear. You know? I think the amygdala is, like, the most famous piece of
the brain, probably. Right. Right. The the amygdala is really about emotional learning.
So it's kind of accurate that it's about fear, but it's much broader than that.
You know what I mean? Interesting. So Yeah. Yeah. The love and my brain thing.
It's hard to collapse. That is. Yeah. Years of
study that you've done into a meme. I mean, that's
that's just that is that is a level of compression which I
think anyone's ever gonna figure out. But I will know. But I I actually go
the opposite. I actually go the opposite way. So, like, I think
I think it's really cool that, so I've worked in the
ivory tower. Like I said, lots of lot of, academic
medicine background. You know, the I I finished
my training out in Boston, and, I
started doing these, I because we had all this amazing
information, data research on stress and the
body and our relationships, and a lot of it was, like, locked up in the
ivory tower. And so I actually the way my this kind of
dimension of my career started is I have always been into,
like, public service and and advocacy
around mental health. This is just always been something in my family system and
my childhood. So I started going to the library
and giving talks for free. Just, you know, I'm like Interesting. The
the well-being brain stress connection or whatever. Right?
And I joke that I became library famous. Like, the librarians
would be like, we it's standing room only. We
haven't seen a crowd this big in the library. And what
I realized again is, like, people are so
hungry and so curious as as they rightfully should be
about their life. And how our
brain works is such a big piece of the puzzle. So I actually
don't get a as long as people aren't giving dangerous advice,
the simplification, I think, is essential, and I actually think
it's a really beautiful thing. That's a good way to put it. That's a
good way to put it. And I know we're coming close on time, but you
said something that made me wonder. And, again, I get this kinda
gets that. What NLP has two meanings, natural
language processing and AI world, but also in the sales world, you'll hear it
uses neurolinguistic programming. And you said that language is
very powerful. Is that
is that a is is neurolinguistic programming, like, is that a real
thing? Is that pop size? Is it somewhere in the middle? Is it kinda like,
you know, the amygdala example you gave? Tell me. I don't I've heard of it.
I don't know. Tell me. Give me a a recap. Neurolinguistic programming is
just the idea of how you say things and how you phrase things
shift not just the way you influence other people, but also in how you
influence yourself. Yeah. I mean, if
if that's the premise of it, I I again, like, I don't know anything
about but I I'll sort of talk about, you know, why do we think
talk therapy works? Well, we thought think talk therapy works is if
you really think about the neuroscience of it is emotions
are basically subcortical processes. Meaning, they're they're kind
of held in you know, so there you have the the subcortical regions of the
brain, and then you have the cortical, the more advanced. This is where we think
about thinking and emotion regulation and all this executive function stuff
that you hear people talking about. So we think that the the
healthiest brain is an integrated brain, a brain that
knows what it feels and feels what it knows. Right? So what happens
in talk therapy, for example, is I'm running this
program, and the sensations in my body feel like
I suck. I suck. I'm no good. Nobody wants me. I can't get what I
want. My life is bad. I don't count. And so what
happens when we start to take those emotional sensations, which are wordless,
they're just this emotional energy, and we translate them into words, and we start to
say, like, oh, is it true that I'm all bad
all the time? No. Is there any evidence
to the contrary? Or if you think about trauma processing, what happens
with trauma processing is because the trauma is by definition
so horrible, the brain says, let us not think about it. Let us avoid
it. Let us repress it. Well, we we are so clear. We
have tremendous amount of evidence based treatments and really good studies that show
that when people talk about the trauma, yeah, it doesn't feel
great to talk about a really painful thing. But what happens is we
get to organize an inherently chaotic event
into words. And when we when we put the
linear kind of the linear model of language
on these emotions, it really is quite
transformative. So the ways that we talk about ourselves,
it matters profoundly. It also matters,
like I think a lot of times this is why I don't really tell people
to do affirmations. Like, if I stand in front of the mirror and go,
I am so great. Everyone loves
me. I am the most interesting, attractive,
smart, con my brain's like
bull bull bull So,
again, I would much more rather have someone say, what
is the edge? And I talk a lot about this energy rising. What
is the edge of what I could say that is true?
Right. So instead of, for example, saying, I don't give a shit what people think
about me, It's more true to say, I actually
really care a lot what people think about me. And even though I
care that they think this way about me, I'm still willing to take
these risks and do x, y, and z. It's like we've
got to link language to the truth of our emotion in
order to evolve the emotion so we can become more
powerful. So that was kind of a long way of saying, yeah. Like, I absolutely
think that the way we language our emotional
experiences matters profoundly to us and other people.
That's a great way to put it. And I suspect that also is probably a
big part of why when you write about something emotional or traumatic
Correct. It's very cathartic. It's very cathartic. Correct. Because what you're
actually doing at the neural level is you're you're, like,
organizing in a linear fashion something that's inherently
nebulous and a lot of times overwhelming. So then then it becomes
this, like, integrated moment, and people get not just
instant relief, but they tend to get lasting relief.
Right. That's a good point. That's a good point.
This has been an awesome conversation. Again, the book is energy
energy rising, the neuroscience of leading with emotional power. It's
on Amazon,
Kindle. It's also available on Dead Tree. You get it at
Barnes and Noble. All the formats, that I can tell. And
I definitely would love to have you back in the show and kind of, with
better, planning and kind of a better structure.
And, definitely, maybe on a day where there's not an eclipse, although
causation is not shot. Correlation is not causation.
Yeah. And
one final question. How did you get into this? Like, you mentioned kind of
how how did you get into like, what what made you get into this
and and what made you, like, see all this stuff in the ivory
tower, but it's not out there helping people? Yeah. Like what?
So I come from a a lineage of psychologists. So,
like, our our family dynamics are very interesting.
My father is a psychologist. So my father is a psychologist. My
mother, worked with she was a teacher who worked with immigrants.
My brother is significantly disabled. So I grew up, I
think, in a very in a very
complex family system, but also in a lot of ways, a a really beautiful family
system where people sort of talked
not always in the healthiest way, but people talked a lot about emotion.
And this idea of service was always so,
I'm Catholic. You know, my faith is is a big deal in but I've I've
really I think, like, a lot of us, we've struggled with our faith. Like, what
does it really mean to serve? And and so, I
started doing a lot of, international humanitarian
aid. So, actually, I first started in US politics. And the reason I went into
politics was, I was interested
in advocacy and changing systems and thinking about
the well-being of the of the people. So I worked in US politics. I worked
at the White House. I worked on several US presidential campaigns.
I don't know if this is gonna make sense, but I got tired of the
politics of politics and became I'm I'm much more of a a
substance and policy person. So I I went to Georgetown.
I got my first master's and started doing a lot of international
humanitarian aid, a lot of international development work. And what was
very interesting to me was everywhere I went,
I was seeing the same story. I was seeing whether
I was in Chicago or Detroit or Buenos
Aires or Abuja or Lagos or I did a lot of work
in a small country called Lesotho or Kenya or South Africa.
Hope always looked like hope. Rage always
looked like rage. Trauma always looked
like trauma. The situational sit circumstances
are obviously, of course, different. But, again, this idea of this,
like, universal longing of human emotion. And so
I I was working in all these traumatized places. And even if you think about
political work, like the right to health care, the right to
to work with dignity, you know, with my brother, we've we've thought a lot about
what does what does it mean to work with dignity. These
are about fundamental
existential issues of human dignity and power.
And I said, I always kind of had a scientific mind, so I said I'm
gonna get a PhD. No one was. People who are saying, like, we would love
to figure out how to how better address trauma, but, like, we can't just throw
money at things we don't understand. So, like, what's the science behind this? And I
tend to be somebody who if there's a problem, I'm gonna fix it. So I
decided to, much to my family's shock, go back to school and
get a PhD, and I became a neuropsychologist. And so one
of the things I think is kind of surprising to people is I think there's
a profound social justice argument to be made based on
our biology. I think when we repeatedly ask the human system to
do things the human system cannot do, whether it's
be this hyper productivity nonsense, whether it's
isolation, whether it's, you know, working without dignity, whether
it's the lack of relationships, you can't sustain it.
You cannot sustain it. Yeah. It's almost like our truth
flexibility. Told by our flesh. Right? That is a truth told by our
flesh. No. That's a good point. No. That's a good point. It's
almost like our flexibility comes to haunt us because we can
temporarily act in ways that are against the
flesh, so to speak. But eventually, you
kinda have to snap back. Right? Like Yeah. But for what meaning? For what meaning?
So what so, like, so you can work 70 hours a week for what? The
only reason you're doing it is if you look at the underlying fear, and we're
gonna run out of time here, the underlying emotional input impetus, because it's
the emotional impetus that gives rise to behavior, is fear.
The only reason people overwork like that is because, you know, the the
brain has something called loss aversion. The brain's always looking for a
sense of worthiness and and, like, I am
sufficient. So, you know, people are trying to amass, amass, amass,
amass, amass. Why? Because it never feels like enough. Why?
Because they're afraid. So what once again, until you get into the underlying
emotional energy, you cannot meaningfully change human behavior. And until you don't
until you change human behavior, you cannot meaningfully change systems.
Very well said. Very well said. And I will end on that note,
and we'll have our AI, Bailey, finish the show. And there we have
it. Another thought provoking episode of the data driven
podcast wrapped up neatly with insights that surely tickled your
neurons. A huge thank you to doctor Julia Deganji for
joining us and sharing her expertise on the marvels of the human mind and
its parallels with artificial intelligence. If today's
discussion sparked your interest and you're hungry for more data driven
dialogues, don't forget to subscribe to our podcast on your favorite
platform. That way, you won't miss out on any of our
upcoming episodes where we continue to merge the worlds of technology,
data science, and the human experience in the most enlightening
ways. Join us next time for another deep dive into the
data that shapes our world. Until then, keep those
neural networks, both organic and artificial, active and
engaged. Cheerio.