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Hello, and welcome to another intriguing episode of the Data Driven

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Podcast. Our special guest today is doctor Julia

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DeGangi, a neuropsychologist who brilliantly bridges the gap

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between our biological neural networks and the synthetic ones we often

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chatter about. Today, we veer slightly off our usual

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digital path and delve into the fascinating world of natural neural

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networks that's your brain. Doctor Daganji will illuminate

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how these organic systems influence our ability to tackle life's

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complexities. So whether you're wrestling with AI

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algorithms or your own synaptic connections, today's episode

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promises to enrich your understanding of both. Join us as

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we explore the vibrant intersection of technology, neuroscience

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and personal mastery. And now, without further

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ado, let's welcome doctor Julia Deganji.

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Hello, and welcome back to Data Driven podcast where we explore the

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emergent fields of data science, artificial intelligence, and, of course,

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data engineering. For some reason, Andy has

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dropped off the call. I think he's having technical glitches. I will blame the

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eclipse on that. We're recording this on April

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8th, and, with me today is doctor Julia Deganji, who is a

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neuropsychologist who shows you how to use your brain to

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do hard things. Now normally, we talk about artificial neural

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networks, but I think today, we can kinda drill in on the the neural networks

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that we all have or at least we all hope we have, natural neural networks.

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Welcome to the show, Julie, doctor Julie. I'm really

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glad to be here. Thanks for having me, Frank. Yes. We contribute a lot to

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the eclipse today. It's already a strange, strange morning.

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On on the way to drop my youngest to daycare, like, just some car randomly

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pulled out in front of me when it saw me coming, and I'm like, what

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is going on? So,

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so you you have, a

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book that's coming out, or is it already out? The book was released in

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September, late September of 2023, Energy Rising. It was released by

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Harvard Business Review. So it's a book on the neuroscience of leadership.

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Very cool. And I think it's interesting where,

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a lot of the the obviously, artificial

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intelligence draws a lot of inspiration from neuroscience and kind of

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cognitive studies. What are your thoughts on this

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AI? I right now, we're kind of in the middle of a hype wave, but,

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like, what are your thoughts on AI just in general?

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That's a really big question. So I I am a neuropsychologist,

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which means I'm a clinical psychologist with specialized expertise in the brain,

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and neuropsychologists study sort of the domains of the brain. So

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we study information processing,

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decision making, emotional inhibition, emotional dysregulation,

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attentional processes. And so one of the things that I think is really interesting

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is, you know, the the the power of machines

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have already outpaced in so many ways the cognitive abilities of the

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human brain. Right? So if you think about memory retention, memory

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storage, memory retrieval, attention, processing speed.

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So what I, you know, I am most fundamentally, I've done a lot

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of neuroscientific research, a lot of fMRI, EEG,

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looking at human stress and human resilience. And

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one of the things I'm really interested in, I I find this to be obviously

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a very uncertain moment, and I'm I would love to talk to you about uncertainty

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in the brain because I think that piece is so important. But while

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it's an uncertain moment, I also feel incredibly optimistic. You know, what I

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think is actually gonna happen is as the machines continue to

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outpace some of the classic cognitive abilities of the human brain,

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there's gonna be tremendous pressure on our emotional

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capacities, our our emotional capacities to deal with uncertainty,

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our emotional capacities to regulate, our emotional capacities to have

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trust, our emotional capacities to connect with each other. And so

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when you think about evolution, species only evolve

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when there is intense pressure on the species. So what I feel

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incredibly optimistic for is I think we're gonna unlock extraordinary

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capabilities of human emotional and relational

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intelligence due to all this advancement in AI.

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Wow. That's interesting. So you have a very optimistic view of what

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it means for humanity? You know, I think like any you

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know, most of my work really focuses on stress and trauma, and energy

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rising is about the relationship. You know, I it's about

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leadership, but it's about the relationship fundamentally between what I call emotional

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power and emotional pain. So I really believe

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that struggle, so challenge, problems,

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even pain sometimes, is egregiously misunderstood.

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So do I think that these moments of intense stress on our

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social systems, our occupational systems, our cognitive systems is

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gonna be easy? Absolutely not. But I think when we position

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ourselves to really understand what's going on and specifically how the

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brain is wired to meet these moments of uncertainty,

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I I feel I feel deeply hopeful. That's good to hear.

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And and I think what's interesting is as someone who I've been in the

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technology space since, well, longer than I care to admit.

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But, one of the interesting things we're seeing now is a lot of

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layoffs happening in this field, and that

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it used to be that a career in technology was always golden,

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always roses, you know, wonderful things, big tech, blah blah

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blah. But now I think people are feeling uncertain in their careers for the

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first time. I'm old enough to remember the dotcom crash, so this

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this this rings very familiar to me. What do you what would you

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say to people who are facing uncertainty now?

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Like because there's obviously, I think, a clinical aspect to what uncertainty does to the

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brain. I mean, I'd like to unpack that, but, like, what can people do kind

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of as the drivers of their brain? I know that's

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probably not the right word, but as the conscious what you're saying. So let's let's

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have a conversation about the neuroscience of uncertainty.

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Mhmm. So one of the things that I think is is so powerful about energy

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rising, and it's really received I think I've I've been really kind of,

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pleasantly surprised by its reception. You know? So my work on emotional power is uncovered

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now in the Wall Street Journal, CNBC, Fortune, Forbes,

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HBR Magazine. And the reason I think is, like, yeah,

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sure. My credentials are really strong and and my I think my

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scientific expertise really kind of brings a lot to the table, but what I really

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think is happening is these and and so much of energy rising is

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about how leaders can navigate uncertainty. I think it's really

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resonating with people. So one of 1 and one of the premises of energy

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rising is this, and it's a little bit counterintuitive at first. It's

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that your brain wants to focus

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on situation after situation after situation.

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So this thing happened on Tuesday. I got laid off from

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that job in 2007. This person said this thing to me on

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Wednesday. That thing's gonna happen next Thursday. So do you see what I mean by,

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like, every situation is kind of a a new problem to be solved

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onto itself? This is an incredibly episodic. I'm sorry. Yes.

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It's and it's an incredibly inefficient and powerless

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way of really leading our lives.

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So all of our our all of the meaning in our life, all of

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the meaningful consciousness, and I'd be interested to hear what your response is

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sort of a a tech expert. All of the meaningful

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consciousness in our lives, all of it, rises entirely

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on the energy of emotion.

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So when I say to people, do you have a good job?

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I don't know. How do you feel about it? Are you a successful

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leader? I don't know. How do you feel about it? Do you have

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enough time? Do you have enough money? Have you achieved enough? When

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All of these questions are fundamentally mediated by

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emotional circuits in the brain, feeling. Feelings of sufficiency,

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feelings of disappointment, feelings of anxiety, feelings of hope, feelings

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of satisfaction. So when we come to

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uncertainty, it's very easy to say And and by the way,

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like, these things, you know, I I certainly am in the work as

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well, so I know how hard this can be for us as human beings. But

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when we come to uncertain situations in our life, in our jobs, in

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our homes, in our marriages with our kids, it's really easy to say,

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like, oh my god. I'm freaking out about this this specific thing.

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But the brain is meeting the energy of

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uncertainty. And when I say energy, I'm not talking metaphysically or

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metaphorically. I'm talking your brain is quite literally a neuroelectrical

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machine. K? Emotions, thoughts, there are chem neurochemical

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processes neurochemical electrical processes. So in

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order to understand how the brain responds to uncertainty,

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we gotta talk about what what happens when we get uncertain. So I think the

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best way to describe our relationship with uncertainty is your brain is

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basically allergic to it. I'm gonna tell you a really interesting

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study that I think really elucidates a lot. So this is not

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my study, but I think it's still a very powerful study to talk about. So

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these scientists bring people into the lab, and they say, okay. You're gonna be in

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one of 2 conditions. You're either gonna be in a condition where the machine is

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gonna count down 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, and you're

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absolutely going to get a shock, or you're gonna be randomized to a

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condition where the machine's gonna count down 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, and

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you may or may not get a shock. Now if we were really

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I I use this in air quotes because I think it's silly. If we were

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really rational human beings, we would all choose to be

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in the first condition. I'm sorry. We would we'd rather be in the in the

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second condition where there's a good chance that we could get away without getting an

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electrical shock. But people statistically

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prefer to be in the condition where they are absolutely

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certain they are going to get a shock. Really? What

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does this what does this tell you? Well, I think people like to kinda, like,

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laugh and roll their eyes and say human beings are so irrational. Human

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beings are not irrational. The brain is the most extraordinary machine on the

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planet, and this experiment tells us something very powerful. There

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are moments in our lives where the pain the

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emotional pain of uncertainty is more

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painful than actually getting a physical shock.

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Interesting. And the the part that kinda tickles me

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about this experiment is, you know, these people are showing up to do these experiments,

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you know, at the University of Iowa, you know, the University of, you know, New

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York University, UCLA. Like, people are going into a lab

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for 30 minutes. In other words, they know they ain't dying that day.

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It's a really safe, controlled environment. So if you so even

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in this really controlled environment and by the way, we did have these electrical shock

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machines in my lab. And as as the name suggests,

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the shock is very painful. So even

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in a a contextually very safe,

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reasonable environment, people are still saying, give me

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the shock, then give me the experience where I have to

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sit with my own feelings of uncertainty. Wow. If

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you transpose that out into the real world where the stakes are so

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much higher, our relationships, our jobs, our

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careers, our sense of self. You can see

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just how powerful this energy of uncertainty is

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and why it's really quite important that we learn to handle it powerfully.

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That's interesting. So do you think we're running towards certainty or away

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from uncertainty or some combination, or it doesn't

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matter? Yeah. I don't know that I think that that is a meaningful distinction, but

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I will tell you what I do think is so meaningful. If I had one

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word to describe all of my work. Right? I've been I've been really put on

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this planet to talk about the brain,

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emotional power, and emotional pain. This is I just some of us find our calling.

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I really have found mine. If I had

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to give one word to describe all of my work, I would say either

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counterintuitive or opposite.

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Okay? So a very useful way so if I keep saying the brain is a

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machine, we you know, our cell phones are a machine,

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Computers are machines. I think a really powerful question is, like,

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okay. Well, what what does the machine do? Like, when I pick up my cell

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phone, I know I can text people on this thing. I can call. So what

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does this what does this brain machine do? Your

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brain is in the business. It is a pattern detection

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machine. K? So it is literally

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bringing you through your life going apple, apple, apple, fill in the

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blank. I predict it should be an apple.

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Now you can see that space between apple apple apple fill in the blank

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is what we call uncertainty. It just means

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it's agnostic to meaning. In other words, it's just empty. It's not

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good. It's not bad. It's not scary. It's not happy. It's just

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empty. But the future, by definition,

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is uncertain. So the brain

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is gonna say, okay. I'm gonna meet this this empty space, this emotionally

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agnostic space, and I'm gonna predict. And if it was apple,

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apple, apple, apple, 1700 times already, I'm gonna predict that

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it's gonna be an apple. Now could it have been a banana?

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Sure. Could it have been a cup of coffee? Sure. Could it

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have been a puppy? Sure. But the brain is gonna predict

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what it it's gonna superimpose the past on the future.

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So when we want this is such a big point I'm gonna make, especially

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for leaders and people who are really, like, thinking about the well-being of other

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people. If we want to make

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powerful changes in our lives, on our teams, and our organizations,

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we have got to break the pattern. And in the breaking

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of the pattern, your brain will say that is

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wrong. Do not do that. And though

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because the brain is more fun it's it's firstly an an engine

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of feeling way, way before it's an engine of feel of thinking,

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when your brain goes to lead in a new way or try a new thing

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or basically be different, the sensation, the

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emotional energy in your body is going to feel

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like bad, like anxiety, like dread,

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like fear, like stress. And if you as a leader don't

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intelligently know this is emotional intelligence is thinking intelligently

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about emotion. If you don't know how to meet these sensations that

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first and foremost start in your own body, you're not

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gonna be able to lead anybody anywhere because you're not even gonna be able to

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lead yourself. Wow. That

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that's a good point because I know when I'm feeling uncertain or I'm feeling

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confused. And this this impacts a lot of things. Right?

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Not just leadership, but I would say also sales, which I suppose is a kind

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of leadership. If you're trying to sell and you're not certain of the

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product, I think we've all been in those situations where we've been on the other

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end of that equation where we're being sold to and the person's not clear, and

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you could smell that from a 100 miles away. 100 miles away. You know, I

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always paint myself into a corner. I sometimes say, like, I should stop using

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this term leader because you're right. It has, like we all have this, like,

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coding around what's, like, the the CEO of a 40,000 person

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company. I, you know, as as a neuropsychologist, I think

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have a a very powerful and and sort of radical definition of

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leadership. Leadership is quite simply my

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own ability to use my own energy

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to have an impact on my own life. So we're

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all leading our lives. How good we're doing it, how bad we're doing it, that's

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a very separate question. But the reality is whether I get up in the morning

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and take over the world or get or refuse to get out of bed in

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the morning, this is still how I'm leading my life. And I

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think a lot of times what we try to do is we we forget that

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the thing that's ultimately driving our lives is our brain.

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So that we we get a real I always say the brain is the most

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powerful machine you will ever loan own, so operate wisely.

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So a lot of times what we try to do as

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people in relationships, and this this relates to your sales

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point, is we try to get other people to have

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we don't we might not be conscious of this, but an emotional experience.

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But we're not actually having that emotional experience. So in other

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words, I hey, Frank. I need you to believe this, but I don't believe

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it. I'm brought into large corporations. I I coach really

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senior leaders. I work with entrepreneurs all the time. I do. And I would

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say the fundamental question people start to ask me

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is how do I get these other people to behave differently?

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How and it'll say things like, how do I get them more engaged? How do

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I get them more motivated? How do I get them more interested? How I'm sure

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you can you can relate to this. Right? Not just not just at work, but

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I'm just thinking getting my kids to put their laundry away. Like Oh,

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we could yes. And what's so beautiful about the brain is it sits at

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the top of the hierarchy. It's the most upstream thing. So if if we can

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get the neuroscience of relationships that work down, we can get the

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neuroscience of our marriages to work. We can get the neuroscience of our parenting to

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work. We get the neuroscience of our social behavior on social media to

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work. So my point here, though, is that a lot of times what

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we're saying to people is, like, I need you to believe, but I don't believe.

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Right. I need you to be motivated, but I'm not motivated.

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I need the I need you to be more honest. But I'm if I'm

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really honest, I'm not being transparent. Or

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else, these people, they're just so uncooperative.

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Won't cooperate, while failing to look at plenty of clear

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examples in my own life where I failed to be cooperative.

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Now, here's the truth about what we know about emotional energy,

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is we know neuroscience tells us very clearly that emotions

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are are universal and primary language. We came all came

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into this world speaking natively a language of emotion. That's how

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we communicated from the second we were born. K? And

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we understand as herd animals, as mammals,

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that emotions are a thing of contagion.

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We coregulate with each other. We catch each other's emotions like we catch a

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cold. So plenty of times, the the

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salesperson will be confused or bored or this is a

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big one I see if I'm being really honest because I do a lot of

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work with sales and entrepreneurs, is they don't really believe it.

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Well, how in the world are you gonna get somebody to catch your

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emotional energy if you don't first feel the fire inside of yourself?

302
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That is an excellent point. That is that mean, there was another one

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of the the sales gurus that I follow, and and you you work with the

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this crowd. You know, there's there's kind of, like, different schools of thoughts and different

305
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directions and different personalities. You know,

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he he points out that if you are yourself in sales and you're

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successful, you tend to be an easy person to sell

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to because you're always looking for something. Like, the way

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he phrases it way better than me, that's probably why he has his own private

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jet and beachfront property and stuff like that. But, but

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Who is this that says this? It was, Jordan Belfort, actually.

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Most famous in the well, you you nodded in recognition. But for those who don't

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know, the inspiration or,

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behind the the the movie Wolf of Wall Street. And the

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way he phrases it was pretty, like, you know, because I'm an easy person to

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sell to, but he contrasted that with his father who was

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not. And he's a his father was someone who was very hard

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to sell to. Right? So he kinda says, like, if your barrier or,

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the exact word was something along, threshold of action is

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low, you're a very easy

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person to to get into the sales world and you're easy person to be sold

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to. If your barrier to action, threshold to action is

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high, then that's the opposite is true.

324
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It's it's it's totally true. And what I what I want people to see here

325
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because I think it makes it you know, theory is no good

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if this theory only works on a Monday

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when there's a lunar eclipse that only happens every 40 years at

328
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exact it's like who gives it. Right? So theory is

329
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the theory is more powerful when it works

330
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across more contexts. So what you did the example you just

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gave with Jordan Belfort in him basically saying, like, part of the reason I'm

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a great salesperson is because, like, I both I I'm willing

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both to sell and to be sold to. You will see the

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same energy in other leadership dynamics at work, and you

335
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see the same energy in homes. Like, I think the classic one

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that people can, like, almost laugh because we can all resonate with it

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is how many times has someone shouted at you,

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you start to get upset and, like, someone says, do you just need to calm

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down? It's like never in the history of

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human beings calming down has someone shouting calm down

341
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at you actually got you to calm down. Why?

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Because what it doesn't matter the words coming out of your mouth. I mean, you

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you wanna talk about emotional intelligence versus, artificial

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intelligence. It does the the words coming out of my

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mouth are like a secondary or a tertiary language. And you know this is

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true because plenty of times, you've had someone say,

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I'm sorry. Yeah.

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I heard those words coming out of your mouth, but that felt like

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the furthest thing from an apology. Because once

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again, emotions are the native and universal language

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of the human being. You see? So

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and if if we're serious about building something of meaning in our

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life, we gotta tell the

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emotional truth, and we gotta know what to do because this is the other piece.

355
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So energy rising is is the book again that I just wrote, and I think

356
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it's really an extraordinary book because it shows people how to really work

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with their with their emotions. On the good days,

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on the days when things are working, the days when people are listening, the days

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when people are buying, I don't really need any help. There's just enough momentum being

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generated. And There's just enough

361
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momentum being generated. And if I'm really honest about it, not that I didn't contribute

362
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to that momentum, but a lot of other people are paying into

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my momentum. You see? When my kids just get in the car, when I say

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get in the car, when my customers just buy, when my etcetera, etcetera.

365
00:22:38,500 --> 00:22:41,620
Yeah. But you were, like, centered in, not for lack of better term. You were

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centered in that, like, get in the car. Yeah. Right? And I I've

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noticed even even dogs do that too. Right? I have bunch of dogs and, like,

368
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they can tell when I'm serious and when I'm not.

369
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Right? Oh, right. The kids can too. Well, that goes back to this idea of

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emotions being, like, the this energy of contagion. When I really mean it, get

371
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in the car. There's, like, a different frequency that I emit

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as opposed to when I'm like, can can you it's like more of a

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question. Right? Would you kindly go in the car? Yeah. People

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think it's a good idea to get in the car now. Right? Right.

375
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But the the piece I wanna make here is that when when

376
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we're having good days, when we're in our good feelings,

377
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things there just tends to be a natural flow. So if we're

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interested in power in our lives, there is a fundamental

379
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question. And, guys, this question is so powerful.

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It has the power to change the direction of the world.

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Who do I become in the energy of my my painful

382
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emotions? Who do I become when I

383
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start to get triggered? Who do I become when I start to get anxious? Who

384
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do I become when I start to get stressed? Who do I become when I

385
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start to get afraid? If you don't have an answer to that question,

386
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you are at the mercy of

387
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these kind of emotional storms.

388
00:24:05,409 --> 00:24:09,169
Emotions are both to some degree predictable. We we can have

389
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a somewhat controlling relationship with them, but they're like weather. You

390
00:24:12,914 --> 00:24:16,730
cannot perfectly control them. So if you don't know how to answer the

391
00:24:16,730 --> 00:24:20,170
question, who do I become in the energy of doubt,

392
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uncertainty, fear, and stress, you can't

393
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live a powerful life. That is very profound.

394
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And I know we don't have all the time today,

395
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but, one of the most impactful events in my life

396
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personally was I was at the trade center on 911.

397
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And I you know, when you talked about trauma, I was like,

398
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I have a lot of questions. But but You have to

399
00:24:46,845 --> 00:24:50,419
ask them. But, but no. You mean, you're right. Like, you know,

400
00:24:50,419 --> 00:24:54,260
like, who you are in those moments when it's raining bullets is really

401
00:24:54,260 --> 00:24:57,995
who you are. You know, when the weather is awesome and it's

402
00:24:57,995 --> 00:25:01,055
great, like, I mean, anybody could be nice, but, like, when

403
00:25:01,675 --> 00:25:04,255
when it's poor and hell and rain fire, like,

404
00:25:06,130 --> 00:25:09,730
that's who you really are. Lincoln has a quote, like, if you really wanna

405
00:25:09,730 --> 00:25:13,415
understand distributed him, you know,

406
00:25:13,415 --> 00:25:16,695
give somebody power, then you really understand them. But I say no. I think you

407
00:25:16,695 --> 00:25:20,375
really understand someone when it's raining bullets and who

408
00:25:20,375 --> 00:25:24,040
comes out. Is it, I guess, a leader or someone

409
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:27,500
that or is it just someone who will just lash out everyone around them?

410
00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:31,455
I think. Yeah. Yep. And then, you

411
00:25:31,455 --> 00:25:35,215
know, I I think a really useful definition for leadership and,

412
00:25:35,215 --> 00:25:38,970
again, like, don't get I want your listeners to not get attached to, like, it

413
00:25:38,970 --> 00:25:42,730
doesn't matter if you're leading 25 people or it's just this idea

414
00:25:42,730 --> 00:25:45,905
of, like, do I wanna be powerful in my own life?

415
00:25:46,285 --> 00:25:49,485
Well, the most powerful person so my work, if I had to say, like, what

416
00:25:49,485 --> 00:25:53,185
is my work, my fundamental expertise, it's really the relationship between the brain,

417
00:25:53,450 --> 00:25:57,230
emotions, and relationships. So I work across all human relationships.

418
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Entrepreneurs, c suite of big companies, individuals,

419
00:26:01,049 --> 00:26:04,785
families, parents. And so there's

420
00:26:04,785 --> 00:26:08,405
this idea here of, you know, like, if

421
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I really want to be

422
00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:16,760
have effect, have influence, have power

423
00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:20,525
and, of course, I don't mean power over people. I just mean to be

424
00:26:20,525 --> 00:26:24,285
authentic and to to really have a vision and understand how

425
00:26:24,285 --> 00:26:27,805
to direct people towards my vision. I think the the most

426
00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:31,720
the best definition I can give you for leadership is it is the

427
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:34,139
person in the room

428
00:26:35,375 --> 00:26:38,275
with the most potent emotional signal.

429
00:26:41,534 --> 00:26:45,260
That makes sense if we're herd creatures. I'm sorry. No. No. You go ahead. You

430
00:26:45,260 --> 00:26:48,620
go ahead. No. It makes sense if we're herd creatures. Right? We're social creatures and,

431
00:26:50,620 --> 00:26:54,425
I the I see a lot of my dogs. Right?

432
00:26:54,425 --> 00:26:57,705
I I live with a bunch of dogs. I've always had dogs almost all my

433
00:26:57,705 --> 00:27:01,065
life, and they always look to the

434
00:27:01,065 --> 00:27:04,630
alpha. Right, and the alpha dog to kind of guide the,

435
00:27:05,649 --> 00:27:09,330
the ship, so to speak. Right? And it's always the smallest dog

436
00:27:09,330 --> 00:27:13,005
except for one. It's always the

437
00:27:13,005 --> 00:27:16,365
dachshund, right, that kind of drives the bigger

438
00:27:16,365 --> 00:27:20,130
dogs. I think true? Is

439
00:27:20,130 --> 00:27:23,890
it always the the smallest dog that does it? I've only had in

440
00:27:23,890 --> 00:27:27,375
my experience, the only I had an Irish wolfhound

441
00:27:27,515 --> 00:27:31,275
who was kind of the alpha, and then ever the

442
00:27:31,275 --> 00:27:35,055
2 alphas since he passed away have been the small dogs.

443
00:27:35,420 --> 00:27:38,940
So I'm not really sure if that's the it's a a

444
00:27:38,940 --> 00:27:42,460
true statistical mean statistically meaningful observation or

445
00:27:42,460 --> 00:27:45,895
just the luck of the draw. That's really

446
00:27:45,895 --> 00:27:49,275
interesting. But I think your point is a is an excellent one, which is, like,

447
00:27:49,975 --> 00:27:53,355
how you establish your authority

448
00:27:54,120 --> 00:27:57,640
so people can trust you, so you can lead people to the vision really

449
00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:00,940
depends on, like, how convicted are you in your own energy.

450
00:28:02,434 --> 00:28:05,895
Right. Right. That's an interesting point.

451
00:28:07,645 --> 00:28:11,290
What what are your thoughts on

452
00:28:11,530 --> 00:28:14,910
you know, right now, we're focused on the cognitive aspects of AI.

453
00:28:15,585 --> 00:28:18,965
Do you think we'll ever get machines to understand emotions?

454
00:28:20,225 --> 00:28:22,645
I think about this a lot. You know,

455
00:28:23,940 --> 00:28:27,560
Here's what I'm gonna tell you. Okay? So in this really

456
00:28:27,700 --> 00:28:30,920
this really sort of segues well with what we just talked about.

457
00:28:32,145 --> 00:28:35,985
And you're hearing people say this in other ways about AI. AI

458
00:28:35,985 --> 00:28:39,665
is only as good as the information that

459
00:28:39,665 --> 00:28:43,420
we're able to feed it. So if I

460
00:28:43,420 --> 00:28:47,180
say if I go because I do so in addition to, like,

461
00:28:47,180 --> 00:28:50,140
doing a lot of work. I'd I my my work really has 2 branches. 1

462
00:28:50,140 --> 00:28:53,755
is all my kind of business based work. This is, like, with the entrepreneurs, the

463
00:28:53,755 --> 00:28:57,435
founders, the the, c suites, things like this. But then I

464
00:28:57,435 --> 00:28:59,935
also have a clinical practice, so I I see patients.

465
00:29:02,679 --> 00:29:06,280
If I I guess what I wanna say here is this, is

466
00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:09,865
that if I go to see a therapist, a psychologist,

467
00:29:10,005 --> 00:29:12,184
or whomever, and I'm sort of talking about

468
00:29:15,125 --> 00:29:18,780
my feelings where peep where most people start, they have no

469
00:29:18,780 --> 00:29:22,540
idea what they're actually saying. I could see that. They

470
00:29:22,540 --> 00:29:24,620
kinda have a sense. You know what I mean? Like, they they they have a

471
00:29:24,620 --> 00:29:28,054
sense that they're because what happens is people will come in and they'll say I'm

472
00:29:28,054 --> 00:29:31,894
in a lot of pain. Make the pain stop. And they'll they'll

473
00:29:31,894 --> 00:29:35,335
be able to say all the ways all the things that

474
00:29:35,335 --> 00:29:38,360
hurt, but they won't be able to say what can fix it. So they'll say,

475
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:41,720
like, my spouse is doing x, y, and z, my kids, my

476
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:45,455
coworkers. Right? But if you say to them, okay. Well, what do you think the

477
00:29:45,455 --> 00:29:48,654
solution is? They're gonna say, well, obviously, if I knew what the solution was, like,

478
00:29:48,654 --> 00:29:52,440
I wouldn't be here talking to you, which but my point here is

479
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:56,280
that going back to this idea of,

480
00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:59,900
it is a motion that is setting the temperature for this planet.

481
00:30:01,145 --> 00:30:04,365
Until the human brain changes, until we're able to, like,

482
00:30:04,585 --> 00:30:08,390
biohack and fundamentally change the human nervous system, Human

483
00:30:08,390 --> 00:30:11,530
consciousness rises on the energy of emotion.

484
00:30:13,270 --> 00:30:16,870
Now for most of us, we've got a lot of messages. If you think about

485
00:30:16,870 --> 00:30:20,455
what's happening to the the brain during childhood, it's

486
00:30:20,455 --> 00:30:24,215
astounding. It's you know, a 1000000 neural connections are being built

487
00:30:24,215 --> 00:30:27,430
every single second in years 1 through 0 through

488
00:30:27,670 --> 00:30:31,430
basically 3. I mean, just the amount of development that the the brain undergoes

489
00:30:31,430 --> 00:30:34,790
is is astounding in childhood. And so we're getting a lot of

490
00:30:34,790 --> 00:30:37,875
messages in childhood to stop paying attention to our our

491
00:30:38,575 --> 00:30:42,115
emotions. And I'm not even saying catastrophic traumatizing ones.

492
00:30:42,895 --> 00:30:46,440
Sit down. I I didn't wanna sit down. I wanted to stand

493
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:49,800
up. Wear this. I didn't feel like I wanted to wear

494
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:53,180
that. Eat that. I don't think my body likes that.

495
00:30:53,414 --> 00:30:57,115
Keep your mouth shut. Go tell her you're sorry. I'm not right?

496
00:30:57,174 --> 00:31:00,774
So from the moment we're born, we're getting a lot of messages. And even from

497
00:31:00,774 --> 00:31:04,480
parents who I think, by a lot of accounts, do a really good job

498
00:31:04,860 --> 00:31:08,700
to stop really having this deep emotional and somatic intelligence. Do you see

499
00:31:08,700 --> 00:31:12,405
what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah. We're we're kind of shutting out

500
00:31:12,405 --> 00:31:16,005
that that in in hate nature. And it it's really resonates with me

501
00:31:16,005 --> 00:31:19,705
because I have, 3 kids. I have an 18 month old and,

502
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:23,400
a 9 year old and a 14 year old. So, like, I'm kind of seeing

503
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:27,000
it from Yeah. And I'm an I'm an only child. So, like, so the whole

504
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:30,835
sibling relationship thing is foreign to me. So it's fascinating

505
00:31:30,895 --> 00:31:33,395
to watch that develop. And,

506
00:31:34,255 --> 00:31:38,015
it's, you're right. Like, even this morning, I'm like, would you please get in your

507
00:31:38,015 --> 00:31:41,809
car seat? Like, you can't. He did not wanna go in his

508
00:31:41,809 --> 00:31:45,570
car seat today. But Yeah. But but the point here is if you're thinking

509
00:31:45,570 --> 00:31:49,294
about who is programming the you know, like, how how do we and I don't

510
00:31:49,294 --> 00:31:53,054
mean, like, Jim and Susie who are the programmers. They're not a but

511
00:31:53,054 --> 00:31:56,820
it's like there's sort of a collective point I'm trying to make about the

512
00:31:56,820 --> 00:31:59,880
planet is how in touch are we really

513
00:32:00,980 --> 00:32:04,695
with sort of the somatic and emotional intelligence on our own body. So then if

514
00:32:04,695 --> 00:32:08,215
I'm designing a thing to help people feel better, can

515
00:32:08,215 --> 00:32:11,975
it? And then when people come to use it, then this is a

516
00:32:11,975 --> 00:32:15,790
really big point. If I come and I and I cannot stress

517
00:32:15,790 --> 00:32:19,150
this point enough, people will always start asking the wrong

518
00:32:19,150 --> 00:32:22,885
question. I could see that. Right? Because it's

519
00:32:23,045 --> 00:32:26,725
it people tend to focus on symptoms, not necessarily the

520
00:32:26,725 --> 00:32:30,430
cause. And maybe that's even doubly so. Because they're

521
00:32:30,430 --> 00:32:33,230
they're basically gonna say, like, how can I get my how can I get these

522
00:32:33,230 --> 00:32:37,075
people around me to change? Right. You want the answer? That's that's

523
00:32:37,154 --> 00:32:39,975
Save yourself, like, years of their you cannot.

524
00:32:41,154 --> 00:32:44,934
So the question then becomes, how do I renegotiate my reality

525
00:32:45,330 --> 00:32:49,010
if I assume these people, whether they're my customers, the people

526
00:32:49,010 --> 00:32:52,850
on my team, my kids, my wife, are not it's not reasonable for me

527
00:32:52,850 --> 00:32:56,434
to expect that they're gonna make a massive behavioral shift. So the very

528
00:32:56,434 --> 00:33:00,054
question that people always start to ask is never the right one.

529
00:33:02,250 --> 00:33:06,010
Right. So how do I interface with the machine? Can the

530
00:33:06,010 --> 00:33:09,855
machine really I I don't know. But I would say if I had to

531
00:33:09,855 --> 00:33:13,455
make a hierarchy, human emotion will be the fine if it ever

532
00:33:13,455 --> 00:33:16,929
happens, it will be the final frontier. And that's what I think is so powerful

533
00:33:16,929 --> 00:33:19,190
and so sacred about emotion.

534
00:33:20,529 --> 00:33:24,195
Right. And I think it would be interesting to not not

535
00:33:24,195 --> 00:33:27,715
not now, but, like, ponder, like, what was the origin of

536
00:33:27,715 --> 00:33:30,935
emotion? Like, what what made that happen? Right? Because it's so

537
00:33:32,500 --> 00:33:36,179
inherent to from what we can tell advanced nervous systems. Right? Like, it

538
00:33:36,179 --> 00:33:39,835
just seems to was it the

539
00:33:39,835 --> 00:33:43,434
was it the first driver? Was it the prime driver for what we

540
00:33:43,434 --> 00:33:47,195
call intelligence or, dare I say, consciousness? Right? Because that's a whole loaded

541
00:33:47,195 --> 00:33:51,010
word too. It is a loaded word. I I've

542
00:33:51,010 --> 00:33:54,310
been watching a lot of, Star Trek The Next Generation, like, reruns,

543
00:33:55,090 --> 00:33:58,915
and it's always interesting to see how the eighties

544
00:33:58,915 --> 00:34:02,515
nineties impression of AI was compared to what we see

545
00:34:02,515 --> 00:34:06,330
today. Right? So, you know, a big plot point, if you're

546
00:34:06,330 --> 00:34:08,909
not familiar with it is the android character,

547
00:34:10,650 --> 00:34:14,385
has no emotions. Right? So he processes things only from, like, a logical

548
00:34:14,385 --> 00:34:18,145
point of view. And, like, one of his character arts throughout the show

549
00:34:18,145 --> 00:34:21,940
is he's trying to figure out how to work with humans and human emotions.

550
00:34:21,940 --> 00:34:25,699
Right? Like so it's kinda like it's interesting to see that.

551
00:34:25,699 --> 00:34:29,185
Right? And then and then they they they and then there's another character

552
00:34:29,185 --> 00:34:32,784
who that's all she does. Like, she's an empath. Right? She can sense

553
00:34:32,784 --> 00:34:36,405
emotions. So you kinda have somebody who's, like, cranked to 11 on

554
00:34:36,900 --> 00:34:40,739
the e IQ scale, and you have someone who's there cranked to 11

555
00:34:40,739 --> 00:34:44,260
on the EQ square scale, which I I don't know how you feel about the

556
00:34:44,260 --> 00:34:47,895
EQ term that floats out there in ether.

557
00:34:48,195 --> 00:34:52,034
But it's interesting to kinda see them oddly enough in the show, they

558
00:34:52,034 --> 00:34:55,570
generally don't interact. Now they think about it. But,

559
00:34:57,630 --> 00:35:00,590
all of which is to say, I think you're right. Like, you know, will that

560
00:35:00,590 --> 00:35:03,490
ever be something that machines can approximate?

561
00:35:04,474 --> 00:35:08,015
Or do they have to approximate it to

562
00:35:08,474 --> 00:35:12,280
understand it? And I say understand in the sense of be able to

563
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:16,040
process that as process that as input. Right. Right? Because all the

564
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:19,775
call centers, right, they hear when you're angry. Like, there's an AI in there

565
00:35:19,775 --> 00:35:23,615
that supposedly hears here detects anger and then routes you to a person

566
00:35:23,615 --> 00:35:27,430
sooner. So sorry. I cut you off. Oh, no. I think what you're saying

567
00:35:27,430 --> 00:35:31,270
is really interesting. Yeah. So to your point, like, will what what

568
00:35:31,270 --> 00:35:34,724
does it mean? What is and then also, there's this other question is, like, what

569
00:35:34,724 --> 00:35:38,565
does relief look like? So and, you know, this is

570
00:35:38,565 --> 00:35:41,970
a question I think we sit with in the field of of mental

571
00:35:41,970 --> 00:35:45,810
health quite readily is, like, what does recovery look like? What

572
00:35:45,810 --> 00:35:49,650
does healing look like? So if

573
00:35:49,650 --> 00:35:53,424
I can get somebody out

574
00:35:53,424 --> 00:35:55,605
of a a a bad specific situation,

575
00:35:57,825 --> 00:36:01,570
that could be a win. What I tend to see, though, is there's an

576
00:36:01,570 --> 00:36:05,410
enduring there's a very, very enduring underlying pattern. My favorite

577
00:36:05,410 --> 00:36:08,694
quote in the world is everywhere you go, there you are. So I I can't

578
00:36:08,694 --> 00:36:11,575
tell you how many people I have worked with who swear, like, as soon as

579
00:36:11,575 --> 00:36:15,095
I change this job, it's gonna be better. As soon as I fix up my

580
00:36:15,095 --> 00:36:18,460
house, it's gonna be better. As soon as I get a new relationship, it's gonna

581
00:36:18,460 --> 00:36:22,060
be better. Well, you know, you get a you you change the job, the

582
00:36:22,060 --> 00:36:25,755
relationship, the house, whatever. You get a spike for, I don't know, 6 weeks,

583
00:36:25,755 --> 00:36:29,455
6 months, but then you return to the underlying pattern because

584
00:36:29,835 --> 00:36:33,195
you're the one carrying the blueprint. Right? That's why I wrote energy rising. It's like,

585
00:36:33,195 --> 00:36:36,440
what does it actually take to fundamentally alter

586
00:36:36,900 --> 00:36:40,100
our nervous system so we can really live these in

587
00:36:40,340 --> 00:36:43,704
empowering, meaningful lives that feel

588
00:36:43,704 --> 00:36:47,545
like a relief. I think so many of us are just running around so stressed

589
00:36:47,545 --> 00:36:51,370
out, so clenched. So, you know, could could an AI device,

590
00:36:51,370 --> 00:36:54,570
like, help you solve the specific you know, you could talk to the thing now.

591
00:36:54,570 --> 00:36:57,645
It's like my kid's acting up. What should I do? And it will it will

592
00:36:57,725 --> 00:37:01,485
give you a a reasonably intel like, regulate yourself

593
00:37:01,485 --> 00:37:04,305
first. And but the thing about human emotion is, like,

594
00:37:05,619 --> 00:37:09,140
the the logic behind a lot of

595
00:37:09,140 --> 00:37:12,900
the mindset mental health work is not rocket

596
00:37:12,900 --> 00:37:16,425
science. You know, I do a lot of work in

597
00:37:16,425 --> 00:37:20,025
couples. I do a lot of work in couples. And we say in couples

598
00:37:20,025 --> 00:37:23,485
therapy, the couple has the same fight for 50 years.

599
00:37:24,090 --> 00:37:27,690
This is true. It doesn't change a millimeter. The

600
00:37:27,690 --> 00:37:31,225
details will be different, but the substance of the argument is always, you don't respect

601
00:37:31,305 --> 00:37:33,865
me. No. You don't respect me. No. You don't love me. No. You don't love

602
00:37:33,865 --> 00:37:37,625
me. So, you know, if I if I

603
00:37:37,625 --> 00:37:41,430
don't change the underlying pattern, I'm just

604
00:37:41,430 --> 00:37:44,170
gonna keep seeing it over and over and over and over again.

605
00:37:45,110 --> 00:37:48,010
So how does the machine get into that? I don't know.

606
00:37:48,915 --> 00:37:52,535
Well and I don't think people have realistically figured it out either. Right? Like,

607
00:37:52,755 --> 00:37:56,215
you you described so many people I've known in my life,

608
00:37:56,640 --> 00:38:00,240
you know, that they were always my

609
00:38:00,240 --> 00:38:03,760
mom would call it chasing rainbows. Right? I get the new job. I get the

610
00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:06,885
new car. I get the new house. I get this. I get that. Then everything

611
00:38:06,885 --> 00:38:10,565
will be better. Ironically, my mom was one of the worst people in that regard.

612
00:38:10,565 --> 00:38:14,085
God rest her soul. But she could always pick it out on other

613
00:38:14,085 --> 00:38:17,859
people. Pathologically optimistic or what was your mom's opinion? It was more

614
00:38:18,319 --> 00:38:21,859
it was more like everything's gonna be fine when this happens. Okay.

615
00:38:21,895 --> 00:38:25,735
Yeah. Like, that type of when this happens, everything will be fine. And

616
00:38:25,735 --> 00:38:29,415
then to your point, like, when you show up, when x

617
00:38:29,415 --> 00:38:33,100
happens, things aren't fine. Like, you know, maybe for a couple of

618
00:38:33,100 --> 00:38:36,640
days. But, like, it was something that another family member,

619
00:38:38,540 --> 00:38:42,325
said that, you know, something to the effect of and

620
00:38:42,325 --> 00:38:45,945
there's he said it way more crass because he's a member of my family.

621
00:38:46,005 --> 00:38:49,810
And, he said something to the effect of, I bet

622
00:38:49,810 --> 00:38:53,650
even in heaven, the toilets get clogged. Right?

623
00:38:53,650 --> 00:38:56,950
The idea is that there's always a problem somewhere. Right? And just

624
00:38:58,555 --> 00:39:01,215
I don't wanna attribute more deep thought than he warrants

625
00:39:03,355 --> 00:39:07,140
or less than he warrants, but I think the idea was, like, look. Even even

626
00:39:07,140 --> 00:39:10,740
if you have everything you want, something bad's gonna happen. And

627
00:39:10,740 --> 00:39:14,520
then the the real question is, how do you deal with that? Do you

628
00:39:14,935 --> 00:39:18,295
scream at the sky and say, oh, or do you just get a plunger and

629
00:39:18,295 --> 00:39:22,135
deal with it? Right? Right. Well and also too, like, I think, you know,

630
00:39:22,135 --> 00:39:25,530
I think there's so much power in in language. It's really kind of one of

631
00:39:25,530 --> 00:39:28,890
the defining features of what makes our

632
00:39:28,890 --> 00:39:32,415
species, humans. You know, we understand, like, why we think we have the

633
00:39:32,415 --> 00:39:35,795
intelligence we have. So I think words really carry a a power and an energy.

634
00:39:36,415 --> 00:39:39,395
I think what's really interesting is a a synonym

635
00:39:39,775 --> 00:39:43,349
for problem is pain. So in

636
00:39:43,349 --> 00:39:47,130
energy rising, I talk a lot about emotional pain. And I don't mean

637
00:39:47,589 --> 00:39:51,275
excruciating trauma. I mean, my definition for

638
00:39:51,275 --> 00:39:54,955
emotional pain is anytime your nervous system gets triggered in a

639
00:39:54,955 --> 00:39:58,715
bad way. So you're frustrated, you're irritated, you're annoyed, you're stressed,

640
00:39:58,715 --> 00:40:02,240
you're upset. You're bothered all the way up to you're enraged. Right?

641
00:40:03,580 --> 00:40:07,075
You're sad. You're scared. I mean, all of it. So a a

642
00:40:07,075 --> 00:40:10,295
real synonym for problem is actually pain.

643
00:40:11,555 --> 00:40:15,020
Because until you have and this is why I keep saying

644
00:40:15,020 --> 00:40:18,700
your consciousness rises on the energy of your emotion. Until

645
00:40:18,700 --> 00:40:22,080
you have a bad feeling, what I call a painful feeling,

646
00:40:22,460 --> 00:40:25,505
you do not have a problem. This is

647
00:40:25,964 --> 00:40:29,805
a good story. Like it's clogged and you got you got no feeling

648
00:40:29,805 --> 00:40:32,684
about it, like, in other words, you're like, oh, I knew you know, there's a

649
00:40:32,684 --> 00:40:36,220
plumber coming tomorrow. It's good. It's gonna get fixed. You don't have a a meaningful

650
00:40:36,220 --> 00:40:40,060
problem. If you get fired from your job and you're

651
00:40:40,060 --> 00:40:43,180
like, you know what? I didn't really like that job anyway. Like, I actually kinda,

652
00:40:43,180 --> 00:40:46,335
you know, I gotta figure it out, but I feel more relief than anything. You

653
00:40:46,335 --> 00:40:49,694
don't really have a problem. So what I'm what I'm saying here

654
00:40:49,694 --> 00:40:53,180
is human reality is defined

655
00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:57,400
by the energy of emotion. And so when we want to understand our lives

656
00:40:57,400 --> 00:41:00,885
powerfully, we wanna have powerful relationships. We wanna have meaningful

657
00:41:01,105 --> 00:41:04,945
satisfaction. We wanna have an enduring sense of we're

658
00:41:04,945 --> 00:41:08,510
okay, worthiness. This is the whole reason I wrote

659
00:41:08,510 --> 00:41:12,350
energy rising. And I think, again, you know, energy rising is broken down into

660
00:41:12,350 --> 00:41:16,115
what I call 8 neuroenergetic codes. Each one

661
00:41:16,115 --> 00:41:19,474
is like a a blueprint for how to work with your nervous

662
00:41:19,474 --> 00:41:23,315
system. There's tons of practical examples. There's case studies.

663
00:41:23,315 --> 00:41:27,069
It's it's really quite I know I'm biased. I hope every author feels this way

664
00:41:27,069 --> 00:41:30,750
about their book. I it's really an extraordinary book. Very cool.

665
00:41:30,750 --> 00:41:33,615
I I definitely I see that it's available on,

666
00:41:34,175 --> 00:41:37,855
Audible as well as Kindle and paper. And Noble. I'm

667
00:41:37,855 --> 00:41:40,255
actually, this is I've been all I,

668
00:41:41,890 --> 00:41:45,090
I've traveled all over the world to sort of talk about the book. I'm headed

669
00:41:45,090 --> 00:41:48,369
to Copenhagen. I just got back from San Diego. I got back from Michigan. I'm

670
00:41:48,369 --> 00:41:52,164
going down to Saint Louis. But, this this weekend, I'm doing my first this

671
00:41:52,164 --> 00:41:55,444
is I'm kind of excited because I haven't done anything like this. I've done tons

672
00:41:55,444 --> 00:41:58,825
of events, but, I'm doing my first book signing in a bookstore.

673
00:41:59,220 --> 00:42:02,760
So I feel like I have a very yeah. Like, a very cute sort of

674
00:42:02,980 --> 00:42:06,820
nostalgic feeling about that. Very cool. Very

675
00:42:06,820 --> 00:42:10,495
cool. I, I definitely gonna pick up the audio book because I

676
00:42:10,495 --> 00:42:13,235
spend a lot of time in the car and a lot of time in it.

677
00:42:13,455 --> 00:42:17,050
Yeah. Yeah. Definitely won't definitely wanna check it out. And for those of you, that

678
00:42:17,050 --> 00:42:20,670
are listening and you wanna check it out, you go to the data driven book.com,

679
00:42:21,450 --> 00:42:25,205
and, you'll get one free audible book on us. And if you

680
00:42:25,205 --> 00:42:28,425
decide to pursue that, then you help support the show.

681
00:42:29,125 --> 00:42:32,940
Andy is nodding. He's, he's been quiet because he's had some we'll

682
00:42:32,940 --> 00:42:36,220
just blame it on the eclipse. How about that? Because everybody's gonna blame it today

683
00:42:36,220 --> 00:42:39,835
on the eclipse. But yeah. So Yeah.

684
00:42:40,395 --> 00:42:44,155
No. I I really appreciate this conversation. I know it's kind of a bit different

685
00:42:44,155 --> 00:42:47,515
from the usual, but I I mean, I I I think it's important because as

686
00:42:47,515 --> 00:42:51,350
we build out more and more intelligent systems, the word loaded

687
00:42:51,350 --> 00:42:55,109
language we use in terms of intelligent is not necessarily emotional

688
00:42:55,109 --> 00:42:57,825
intelligence. And from what you're saying, and,

689
00:42:58,865 --> 00:43:02,405
I do agree, like, emotional intelligence or emotions

690
00:43:03,105 --> 00:43:06,325
are a even richer carrier of meaning

691
00:43:06,910 --> 00:43:10,510
and depth and content than kind

692
00:43:10,510 --> 00:43:14,049
of, you know, just good old fashioned left brained,

693
00:43:14,795 --> 00:43:17,675
type stuff. And I I don't know. I don't I can't tell if you cringed

694
00:43:17,675 --> 00:43:20,555
or whatever because I've had different people tell me, like, the left brain, right brain

695
00:43:20,555 --> 00:43:24,230
thing isn't a real thing. That's that's probably warrants its

696
00:43:24,230 --> 00:43:27,910
own episode and or book. Those things that we

697
00:43:27,910 --> 00:43:30,985
talk about in the in the brain, and this will come as no surprise. Those

698
00:43:31,065 --> 00:43:33,865
Those things that we talk about in the brain and sort of the the popular

699
00:43:33,865 --> 00:43:37,245
vernacular, the popular press Right. It's it's aggressively

700
00:43:37,385 --> 00:43:41,010
oversimplified, but that's okay. You know, it's like people think the amygdala is

701
00:43:41,010 --> 00:43:44,049
about fear. You know? I think the amygdala is, like, the most famous piece of

702
00:43:44,049 --> 00:43:47,829
the brain, probably. Right. Right. The the amygdala is really about emotional learning.

703
00:43:47,890 --> 00:43:51,454
So it's kind of accurate that it's about fear, but it's much broader than that.

704
00:43:51,675 --> 00:43:54,655
You know what I mean? Interesting. So Yeah. Yeah. The love and my brain thing.

705
00:43:55,035 --> 00:43:58,460
It's hard to collapse. That is. Yeah. Years of

706
00:43:58,460 --> 00:44:02,220
study that you've done into a meme. I mean, that's

707
00:44:02,220 --> 00:44:05,945
that's just that is that is a level of compression which I

708
00:44:05,945 --> 00:44:08,905
think anyone's ever gonna figure out. But I will know. But I I actually go

709
00:44:08,905 --> 00:44:12,745
the opposite. I actually go the opposite way. So, like, I think

710
00:44:12,745 --> 00:44:16,430
I think it's really cool that, so I've worked in the

711
00:44:16,430 --> 00:44:19,890
ivory tower. Like I said, lots of lot of, academic

712
00:44:19,950 --> 00:44:23,725
medicine background. You know, the I I finished

713
00:44:23,725 --> 00:44:27,485
my training out in Boston, and, I

714
00:44:27,485 --> 00:44:31,185
started doing these, I because we had all this amazing

715
00:44:32,710 --> 00:44:36,470
information, data research on stress and the

716
00:44:36,470 --> 00:44:40,150
body and our relationships, and a lot of it was, like, locked up in the

717
00:44:40,150 --> 00:44:43,615
ivory tower. And so I actually the way my this kind of

718
00:44:43,615 --> 00:44:47,375
dimension of my career started is I have always been into,

719
00:44:48,015 --> 00:44:51,810
like, public service and and advocacy

720
00:44:51,870 --> 00:44:55,550
around mental health. This is just always been something in my family system and

721
00:44:55,550 --> 00:44:58,690
my childhood. So I started going to the library

722
00:44:59,215 --> 00:45:02,755
and giving talks for free. Just, you know, I'm like Interesting. The

723
00:45:03,055 --> 00:45:06,435
the well-being brain stress connection or whatever. Right?

724
00:45:06,869 --> 00:45:10,650
And I joke that I became library famous. Like, the librarians

725
00:45:10,789 --> 00:45:14,605
would be like, we it's standing room only. We

726
00:45:14,605 --> 00:45:18,285
haven't seen a crowd this big in the library. And what

727
00:45:18,285 --> 00:45:22,040
I realized again is, like, people are so

728
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:25,740
hungry and so curious as as they rightfully should be

729
00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:29,744
about their life. And how our

730
00:45:29,744 --> 00:45:33,424
brain works is such a big piece of the puzzle. So I actually

731
00:45:33,424 --> 00:45:37,125
don't get a as long as people aren't giving dangerous advice,

732
00:45:37,490 --> 00:45:41,330
the simplification, I think, is essential, and I actually think

733
00:45:41,330 --> 00:45:45,170
it's a really beautiful thing. That's a good way to put it. That's a

734
00:45:45,170 --> 00:45:47,935
good way to put it. And I know we're coming close on time, but you

735
00:45:47,935 --> 00:45:51,775
said something that made me wonder. And, again, I get this kinda

736
00:45:51,775 --> 00:45:55,240
gets that. What NLP has two meanings, natural

737
00:45:55,240 --> 00:45:58,840
language processing and AI world, but also in the sales world, you'll hear it

738
00:45:58,840 --> 00:46:02,600
uses neurolinguistic programming. And you said that language is

739
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:06,315
very powerful. Is that

740
00:46:06,315 --> 00:46:09,994
is that a is is neurolinguistic programming, like, is that a real

741
00:46:09,994 --> 00:46:12,635
thing? Is that pop size? Is it somewhere in the middle? Is it kinda like,

742
00:46:12,635 --> 00:46:15,750
you know, the amygdala example you gave? Tell me. I don't I've heard of it.

743
00:46:15,750 --> 00:46:19,510
I don't know. Tell me. Give me a a recap. Neurolinguistic programming is

744
00:46:19,510 --> 00:46:22,730
just the idea of how you say things and how you phrase things

745
00:46:23,525 --> 00:46:27,125
shift not just the way you influence other people, but also in how you

746
00:46:27,125 --> 00:46:30,859
influence yourself. Yeah. I mean, if

747
00:46:30,859 --> 00:46:34,619
if that's the premise of it, I I again, like, I don't know anything

748
00:46:34,619 --> 00:46:38,185
about but I I'll sort of talk about, you know, why do we think

749
00:46:38,185 --> 00:46:42,025
talk therapy works? Well, we thought think talk therapy works is if

750
00:46:42,025 --> 00:46:45,325
you really think about the neuroscience of it is emotions

751
00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:49,720
are basically subcortical processes. Meaning, they're they're kind

752
00:46:49,720 --> 00:46:52,599
of held in you know, so there you have the the subcortical regions of the

753
00:46:52,599 --> 00:46:55,320
brain, and then you have the cortical, the more advanced. This is where we think

754
00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:59,145
about thinking and emotion regulation and all this executive function stuff

755
00:46:59,145 --> 00:47:02,825
that you hear people talking about. So we think that the the

756
00:47:02,825 --> 00:47:06,650
healthiest brain is an integrated brain, a brain that

757
00:47:06,650 --> 00:47:10,410
knows what it feels and feels what it knows. Right? So what happens

758
00:47:10,410 --> 00:47:13,825
in talk therapy, for example, is I'm running this

759
00:47:13,825 --> 00:47:17,365
program, and the sensations in my body feel like

760
00:47:18,065 --> 00:47:21,105
I suck. I suck. I'm no good. Nobody wants me. I can't get what I

761
00:47:21,105 --> 00:47:24,760
want. My life is bad. I don't count. And so what

762
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:28,460
happens when we start to take those emotional sensations, which are wordless,

763
00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:32,325
they're just this emotional energy, and we translate them into words, and we start to

764
00:47:32,325 --> 00:47:36,085
say, like, oh, is it true that I'm all bad

765
00:47:36,085 --> 00:47:39,910
all the time? No. Is there any evidence

766
00:47:39,910 --> 00:47:43,670
to the contrary? Or if you think about trauma processing, what happens

767
00:47:43,670 --> 00:47:47,355
with trauma processing is because the trauma is by definition

768
00:47:47,495 --> 00:47:51,335
so horrible, the brain says, let us not think about it. Let us avoid

769
00:47:51,335 --> 00:47:55,150
it. Let us repress it. Well, we we are so clear. We

770
00:47:55,150 --> 00:47:58,990
have tremendous amount of evidence based treatments and really good studies that show

771
00:47:58,990 --> 00:48:02,645
that when people talk about the trauma, yeah, it doesn't feel

772
00:48:02,645 --> 00:48:06,405
great to talk about a really painful thing. But what happens is we

773
00:48:06,405 --> 00:48:09,545
get to organize an inherently chaotic event

774
00:48:09,900 --> 00:48:13,580
into words. And when we when we put the

775
00:48:13,580 --> 00:48:16,880
linear kind of the linear model of language

776
00:48:17,420 --> 00:48:20,895
on these emotions, it really is quite

777
00:48:20,895 --> 00:48:24,434
transformative. So the ways that we talk about ourselves,

778
00:48:25,694 --> 00:48:29,490
it matters profoundly. It also matters,

779
00:48:29,490 --> 00:48:32,130
like I think a lot of times this is why I don't really tell people

780
00:48:32,130 --> 00:48:35,670
to do affirmations. Like, if I stand in front of the mirror and go,

781
00:48:36,315 --> 00:48:39,795
I am so great. Everyone loves

782
00:48:39,795 --> 00:48:42,815
me. I am the most interesting, attractive,

783
00:48:43,675 --> 00:48:46,130
smart, con my brain's like

784
00:48:47,089 --> 00:48:50,529
bull bull bull So,

785
00:48:50,529 --> 00:48:54,130
again, I would much more rather have someone say, what

786
00:48:54,130 --> 00:48:57,875
is the edge? And I talk a lot about this energy rising. What

787
00:48:57,875 --> 00:49:00,695
is the edge of what I could say that is true?

788
00:49:02,035 --> 00:49:05,555
Right. So instead of, for example, saying, I don't give a shit what people think

789
00:49:05,555 --> 00:49:09,320
about me, It's more true to say, I actually

790
00:49:09,380 --> 00:49:13,060
really care a lot what people think about me. And even though I

791
00:49:13,060 --> 00:49:16,665
care that they think this way about me, I'm still willing to take

792
00:49:16,665 --> 00:49:20,345
these risks and do x, y, and z. It's like we've

793
00:49:20,345 --> 00:49:24,030
got to link language to the truth of our emotion in

794
00:49:24,030 --> 00:49:27,550
order to evolve the emotion so we can become more

795
00:49:27,550 --> 00:49:31,150
powerful. So that was kind of a long way of saying, yeah. Like, I absolutely

796
00:49:31,150 --> 00:49:34,625
think that the way we language our emotional

797
00:49:34,685 --> 00:49:37,905
experiences matters profoundly to us and other people.

798
00:49:38,445 --> 00:49:41,325
That's a great way to put it. And I suspect that also is probably a

799
00:49:41,325 --> 00:49:44,570
big part of why when you write about something emotional or traumatic

800
00:49:44,950 --> 00:49:48,710
Correct. It's very cathartic. It's very cathartic. Correct. Because what you're

801
00:49:48,710 --> 00:49:52,424
actually doing at the neural level is you're you're, like,

802
00:49:52,424 --> 00:49:56,125
organizing in a linear fashion something that's inherently

803
00:49:56,265 --> 00:50:00,069
nebulous and a lot of times overwhelming. So then then it becomes

804
00:50:00,069 --> 00:50:03,670
this, like, integrated moment, and people get not just

805
00:50:03,670 --> 00:50:06,410
instant relief, but they tend to get lasting relief.

806
00:50:07,675 --> 00:50:11,115
Right. That's a good point. That's a good point.

807
00:50:11,355 --> 00:50:14,575
This has been an awesome conversation. Again, the book is energy

808
00:50:15,030 --> 00:50:18,790
energy rising, the neuroscience of leading with emotional power. It's

809
00:50:18,790 --> 00:50:20,170
on Amazon,

810
00:50:22,545 --> 00:50:26,305
Kindle. It's also available on Dead Tree. You get it at

811
00:50:26,305 --> 00:50:30,100
Barnes and Noble. All the formats, that I can tell. And

812
00:50:30,100 --> 00:50:33,860
I definitely would love to have you back in the show and kind of, with

813
00:50:33,860 --> 00:50:37,000
better, planning and kind of a better structure.

814
00:50:38,435 --> 00:50:42,115
And, definitely, maybe on a day where there's not an eclipse, although

815
00:50:42,115 --> 00:50:45,735
causation is not shot. Correlation is not causation.

816
00:50:45,940 --> 00:50:49,640
Yeah. And

817
00:50:49,780 --> 00:50:52,819
one final question. How did you get into this? Like, you mentioned kind of

818
00:50:54,020 --> 00:50:57,824
how how did you get into like, what what made you get into this

819
00:50:57,824 --> 00:51:01,415
and and what made you, like, see all this stuff in the ivory

820
00:51:01,415 --> 00:51:04,550
tower, but it's not out there helping people? Yeah. Like what?

821
00:51:04,770 --> 00:51:08,530
So I come from a a lineage of psychologists. So,

822
00:51:08,530 --> 00:51:11,910
like, our our family dynamics are very interesting.

823
00:51:12,075 --> 00:51:15,595
My father is a psychologist. So my father is a psychologist. My

824
00:51:15,595 --> 00:51:19,375
mother, worked with she was a teacher who worked with immigrants.

825
00:51:19,870 --> 00:51:23,630
My brother is significantly disabled. So I grew up, I

826
00:51:23,630 --> 00:51:27,444
think, in a very in a very

827
00:51:27,444 --> 00:51:31,285
complex family system, but also in a lot of ways, a a really beautiful family

828
00:51:31,285 --> 00:51:33,944
system where people sort of talked

829
00:51:35,130 --> 00:51:38,430
not always in the healthiest way, but people talked a lot about emotion.

830
00:51:39,690 --> 00:51:43,474
And this idea of service was always so,

831
00:51:44,415 --> 00:51:47,615
I'm Catholic. You know, my faith is is a big deal in but I've I've

832
00:51:47,615 --> 00:51:51,160
really I think, like, a lot of us, we've struggled with our faith. Like, what

833
00:51:51,160 --> 00:51:55,000
does it really mean to serve? And and so, I

834
00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:58,540
started doing a lot of, international humanitarian

835
00:51:58,760 --> 00:52:01,705
aid. So, actually, I first started in US politics. And the reason I went into

836
00:52:01,705 --> 00:52:05,405
politics was, I was interested

837
00:52:05,545 --> 00:52:09,080
in advocacy and changing systems and thinking about

838
00:52:09,080 --> 00:52:12,920
the well-being of the of the people. So I worked in US politics. I worked

839
00:52:12,920 --> 00:52:16,140
at the White House. I worked on several US presidential campaigns.

840
00:52:17,934 --> 00:52:20,575
I don't know if this is gonna make sense, but I got tired of the

841
00:52:20,575 --> 00:52:24,335
politics of politics and became I'm I'm much more of a a

842
00:52:24,335 --> 00:52:28,120
substance and policy person. So I I went to Georgetown.

843
00:52:28,180 --> 00:52:31,480
I got my first master's and started doing a lot of international

844
00:52:31,780 --> 00:52:35,405
humanitarian aid, a lot of international development work. And what was

845
00:52:35,405 --> 00:52:37,905
very interesting to me was everywhere I went,

846
00:52:39,165 --> 00:52:42,930
I was seeing the same story. I was seeing whether

847
00:52:42,930 --> 00:52:46,450
I was in Chicago or Detroit or Buenos

848
00:52:46,450 --> 00:52:50,290
Aires or Abuja or Lagos or I did a lot of work

849
00:52:50,290 --> 00:52:53,685
in a small country called Lesotho or Kenya or South Africa.

850
00:52:54,545 --> 00:52:58,145
Hope always looked like hope. Rage always

851
00:52:58,145 --> 00:53:01,750
looked like rage. Trauma always looked

852
00:53:01,750 --> 00:53:05,290
like trauma. The situational sit circumstances

853
00:53:05,510 --> 00:53:09,325
are obviously, of course, different. But, again, this idea of this,

854
00:53:09,325 --> 00:53:13,165
like, universal longing of human emotion. And so

855
00:53:13,165 --> 00:53:16,510
I I was working in all these traumatized places. And even if you think about

856
00:53:16,670 --> 00:53:20,450
political work, like the right to health care, the right to

857
00:53:21,310 --> 00:53:24,724
to work with dignity, you know, with my brother, we've we've thought a lot about

858
00:53:24,724 --> 00:53:28,565
what does what does it mean to work with dignity. These

859
00:53:28,565 --> 00:53:31,224
are about fundamental

860
00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:35,100
existential issues of human dignity and power.

861
00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:39,640
And I said, I always kind of had a scientific mind, so I said I'm

862
00:53:39,640 --> 00:53:43,484
gonna get a PhD. No one was. People who are saying, like, we would love

863
00:53:43,625 --> 00:53:47,145
to figure out how to how better address trauma, but, like, we can't just throw

864
00:53:47,145 --> 00:53:50,660
money at things we don't understand. So, like, what's the science behind this? And I

865
00:53:50,740 --> 00:53:54,099
tend to be somebody who if there's a problem, I'm gonna fix it. So I

866
00:53:54,099 --> 00:53:57,859
decided to, much to my family's shock, go back to school and

867
00:53:57,859 --> 00:54:01,675
get a PhD, and I became a neuropsychologist. And so one

868
00:54:01,675 --> 00:54:05,515
of the things I think is kind of surprising to people is I think there's

869
00:54:05,515 --> 00:54:09,210
a profound social justice argument to be made based on

870
00:54:09,210 --> 00:54:12,890
our biology. I think when we repeatedly ask the human system to

871
00:54:12,890 --> 00:54:16,525
do things the human system cannot do, whether it's

872
00:54:16,585 --> 00:54:20,184
be this hyper productivity nonsense, whether it's

873
00:54:20,184 --> 00:54:23,704
isolation, whether it's, you know, working without dignity, whether

874
00:54:23,704 --> 00:54:26,960
it's the lack of relationships, you can't sustain it.

875
00:54:27,740 --> 00:54:31,388
You cannot sustain it. Yeah. It's almost like our truth

876
00:54:31,964 --> 00:54:35,685
flexibility. Told by our flesh. Right? That is a truth told by our

877
00:54:35,685 --> 00:54:39,525
flesh. No. That's a good point. No. That's a good point. It's

878
00:54:39,525 --> 00:54:42,950
almost like our flexibility comes to haunt us because we can

879
00:54:42,950 --> 00:54:46,790
temporarily act in ways that are against the

880
00:54:46,790 --> 00:54:50,455
flesh, so to speak. But eventually, you

881
00:54:50,455 --> 00:54:54,234
kinda have to snap back. Right? Like Yeah. But for what meaning? For what meaning?

882
00:54:54,615 --> 00:54:57,500
So what so, like, so you can work 70 hours a week for what? The

883
00:54:57,500 --> 00:55:00,460
only reason you're doing it is if you look at the underlying fear, and we're

884
00:55:00,460 --> 00:55:04,300
gonna run out of time here, the underlying emotional input impetus, because it's

885
00:55:04,300 --> 00:55:07,775
the emotional impetus that gives rise to behavior, is fear.

886
00:55:08,075 --> 00:55:11,915
The only reason people overwork like that is because, you know, the the

887
00:55:11,915 --> 00:55:15,720
brain has something called loss aversion. The brain's always looking for a

888
00:55:15,720 --> 00:55:19,160
sense of worthiness and and, like, I am

889
00:55:19,160 --> 00:55:22,760
sufficient. So, you know, people are trying to amass, amass, amass,

890
00:55:22,760 --> 00:55:26,455
amass, amass. Why? Because it never feels like enough. Why?

891
00:55:26,515 --> 00:55:30,195
Because they're afraid. So what once again, until you get into the underlying

892
00:55:30,195 --> 00:55:34,030
emotional energy, you cannot meaningfully change human behavior. And until you don't

893
00:55:34,190 --> 00:55:37,410
until you change human behavior, you cannot meaningfully change systems.

894
00:55:38,830 --> 00:55:42,675
Very well said. Very well said. And I will end on that note,

895
00:55:42,755 --> 00:55:46,275
and we'll have our AI, Bailey, finish the show. And there we have

896
00:55:46,275 --> 00:55:49,715
it. Another thought provoking episode of the data driven

897
00:55:49,715 --> 00:55:53,290
podcast wrapped up neatly with insights that surely tickled your

898
00:55:53,290 --> 00:55:56,890
neurons. A huge thank you to doctor Julia Deganji for

899
00:55:56,890 --> 00:56:00,730
joining us and sharing her expertise on the marvels of the human mind and

900
00:56:00,730 --> 00:56:04,325
its parallels with artificial intelligence. If today's

901
00:56:04,325 --> 00:56:07,765
discussion sparked your interest and you're hungry for more data driven

902
00:56:07,765 --> 00:56:11,580
dialogues, don't forget to subscribe to our podcast on your favorite

903
00:56:11,580 --> 00:56:14,940
platform. That way, you won't miss out on any of our

904
00:56:14,940 --> 00:56:18,715
upcoming episodes where we continue to merge the worlds of technology,

905
00:56:19,095 --> 00:56:22,475
data science, and the human experience in the most enlightening

906
00:56:22,535 --> 00:56:26,280
ways. Join us next time for another deep dive into the

907
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data that shapes our world. Until then, keep those

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neural networks, both organic and artificial, active and

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engaged. Cheerio.