Foreign the Hoop Heads podcast is brought to you by Head Start Basketball.

I truly believe you can play pack, you can play no middle, you can play hard head, you can play blitz, you can play drop ball, screen coverage.

I think you can play anyway.

At the end of the day, you got to contest shots, you got to limit rim attempts and you got to clear the glass.

And I think whatever our style is, those are three things we're going to take a lot of pride in.

Matt Goldsmith is entering his first season as the Head Men's basketball coach at Middlebury College.

He previously served as the head coach at the College of New Jersey for 10 seasons, where he piloted the Lions to over 150 victories and two New Jersey Athletic Conference championships in 20 and 2024.

Prior to TCNJ, Goldsmith worked for Dave Hickson at Amherst College, where he was an assistant coach for three seasons.

In his first season at Amherst in 2012-13, he helped guide the Jeffs to a 32 record and the second national title in program history.

Goldsmith has spent time as a volunteer assistant coach for USA Basketball and has been a coach and instructor at the J Billis skills camp since 2016.

He also serves as the head coach and General Manager of the Nerd team in the basketball tournament.

As a player at Amherst College, Goldsmith was a member of the Jeffs 2007 National Championship team.

He continued his playing career after graduation playing professionally in Germany during the 20082009 season hey hoop heads.

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Hi, this is Joe's decision from Unleashed Potential and you're listening to the Hoop Heads Podcast.

Take some notes as you listen to this episode with Matt Goldsmith, Head Men's Basketball Coach at Middlebury College.

Hello and welcome to the Hoop Heads Podcast.

It's Mike Linzing here without my co host Jason Sule tonight, but I am pleased to welcome back to the Hoop Heads Pod Matthew Goldsmith, now the Head Men's Basketball Coach at Middlebury.

Previously the Head Coach, when we talked to you last at the College of New Jersey.

So, Matt, welcome back.

My man Mike, I appreciate it, man.

Excited to be here and talk a little hoops.

Thrilled to have you back on.

Always good to have a second time around with people.

So let's start by looking at just the opportunity to come back, go to Middlebury.

You're back in your home league where you played previously at Amherst in the nescac.

So just talk about how the experience, how the opportunity comes across your desk.

How do you first find out about it and then what are your immediate thoughts in terms of going after the job?

Yeah, for sure.

I think, you know, obviously being back in the NEZCAC and being at a place like Middlebury is, you know, once in those, one of those once in a lifetime jobs that just don't pop up very often.

You know, I think when I got into this business, you just think your, you know, dream jobs are going to come available pretty regularly.

And the facts are, you know, somebody gets the job, they stay for 30 years and then they retire.

And, you know, that timing could match up exactly with your career.

You know, that, that guy could be in, in, in the, the seat for the entire time you're a head coach.

So, you know, as soon as I heard Coach Brown was retiring, I was, I was pretty excited about, you know, the potential of the opportunity.

You know, I love tcnj.

I love what we've been able to build and I think we've gotten it to a really, really special place.

But, you know, being back in the NEZCAC and at a place like Middlebury, it just comes with a lot of, you know, benefits and systemic success across their department.

I think they're, you know, we are fantastic in almost every sport they play, you know, 31 varsity sports.

So places like that don't often open.

And so when I heard about it, you know, obviously with my connection to the NEZCAC and understanding Middlebury and Coach Brown and what he was able to accomplish over the last, you know, especially 15 to 16 years when he was just, you know, run an NCAA tournament appearances every year.

You know, like there's five jobs in Division 3 that can say they did that and Middlebury is one of them.

So I was super excited to hear about it.

And then obviously when the job came available, you know, you go through your network and you start talking to people who has connections there.

You know, how can I get in front of the athletic director?

A couple people reached out to me directly.

So that was nice because I already had some interest and then they showed interest in me, so that help helped.

And then I have a little bit of a adjacent connection.

My oldest brother was a Middlebury football player back in 2001.

So I had known about the school and, and how special it was for quite some time.

So you know, once when jobs like that come up, you gotta kind of tap into everybody, you know, and, and poke around a little bit, shake the trees and see and see who has the connections you need.

Was the most helpful connection.

What was the most important call that you made in sort of that pre interview process?

Yeah, for sure, I think there were a few.

So I don't want to just pick one here.

But you know, obviously Coach Hickson, my old boss at Amherst College, you know, he was in the league as a player and a coach for, you know, 45 plus years and has a ton of relationships up there.

And Middlebury is really cool because a lot of the administration and the leaders of the department, including the athletic director, the associate athletic director, they're all, you know, lifelong NESCAC guys.

So they were really familiar with Coach Hickson and had good relationships with them.

So I think that helped a ton.

You know, an alumni of Amherst actually is really friendly with another alum at Middlebury.

So he connected me pretty quickly, Barry Brokaw.

And then probably the one who was the heaviest hitter, I would say was Kobe Altman.

So Kobe Altman is the, the GM and, and president of the Cavs.

Has been there since, you know, been the GM since 2017 and obviously has done a tremendous job there.

But he's a Middlebury basketball alum.

He's on the board of trustees up there as well as he was the assistant coach when I was at Amherst College.

He worked for Coach Hickson.

So I've known Kobe and had a great relationship with him since I was, you know, 20 years old.

So I just reached out to Kobe and said, hey, you know, I, I would, I would think you're still pretty involved back at Middlebury, but if you are, you know, I'm really interested in this, in this job and you know, if you know anybody or can put me in touch with anybody, that'd be great.

And you know, your job is to get in the room and nail it, you know, and, and you try to use your network to, to give you that opportunity.

Right.

Put you in the room when you in front of the people you need to be in front of.

Oh, let's go from the informal of reaching out and making those calls and, and trying to get in contact with people in your network who had.

Once you get to the formal part, where does the first call go?

From you to Middlebury.

From Middlebury to you.

Who are you talking to?

And what's the job search?

What's the interview process look like from your end of it?

Yeah, so most D3 jobs are pretty similar in how the process goes down.

You know, I think in Division one, it's, it's like an ad or search firm has a name in mind.

They kind of make a call and 36 hours later somebody's hired.

Division three is really different.

You go through a full process.

It takes some time.

So you know, the initial call we have, you know, up there is with hr, just double checking you're interested and asking a few kind of standardized questions.

And then when you show, you know, let them know you're still interested, then you move into the zoom phase.

You know, I think most D3 jobs typically Zoom 12, 15 candidates from their pool and then from there they're going to pick up, you know, anywhere from two to five, I think to campus is pretty standard.

I, I think Middlebury ended up picking four and bringing us all up to campus.

And then, you know, those are pretty intense days.

You know, they're, they start the.

Everyone's different.

But at Middlebury we started the evening before with a dinner and then woke up immediately, was kind of picked up by the associate athletic director for breakfast and we moved from there.

So it started the night before, probably around 6:00 o', clock, probably 6 to 8, 6, 8:30.

And then the next morning was 8.

And I think I got back to the hotel to meet up with my wife around five, probably pretty full day.

What were the questions that you wanted to ask them?

I think people always ask somebody who goes on an interview, what questions do they ask you?

I always think it's more interesting.

What questions did you have for them as you went through the process?

Yeah, I think, you know, I think it's important to go into jobs and obviously you want to interview and, and present your best self, but at the same time you want to make sure it's a great fit for you.

So coming in ready to go with really high level questions or whatever you're not quite sure on.

I think is, is really important.

You know, for me, some of those questions aligned around, you know, like I have three small one, you know, little ones.

My wife and I are pretty settled in, you know, we're pretty settled in at tcnj, you know, like figuring out the resources and what the position's going to look like was really important, and making sure it was the right fit for the family and how that was all going to work.

And, you know, this was a, this was a family decision, not just Coach Goldsmith decision.

So understanding those pieces was really important.

And, you know, my wife and I, we wanted to be at a place that, you know, had a family environment, you know, cared about connecting to the entire group, not just, you know, kind of be in silos and, and do their own thing from program to program.

So, you know, we were trying to get a vibe around that and that experience up at, at Middlebury and from the, from the jump, you know, the community and the connections and the warmth of the, of the department and the people up there really showed brightly, shined brightly for us.

And it became super appealing from the start.

You know, some of the classic questions to get around, you know, in Division three especially, I think there's a ton of super elite basketball minds and basketball coaches, and because of the level and the resources at the level, not all of those coaches have the ability to be successful.

And it's kind of not their own fault in a lot of ways.

You know, their hands might be tied by certain, certain things within the department or the school or the way college athletics is moving these days.

So, you know, I was trying to establish, I thought that those things were being done at a really high level at Middlebury.

But, you know, when you're up there and you're, you're going through the process, you know, you ask those questions just to make sure that what you're seeing from the outside is actually what's happening from the inside.

So, you know, trying to sort out those resources and, you know, do you, you know, does the institution really care and, and want to do well?

And do they want to do so well that they don't care about anything else?

Right?

Like, there's all these.

There's a balance to it.

And I thought for me, Middlebury was a really, really special place because, you know, they win national titles in almost every sport, and we want to do that and build on what Coach Brown has, has been able to accomplish at Middlebury and get, get the men's basketball program time.

You know, they want to do it the right way and make sure, you know, we're teaching young student athletes to be like great people, great citizens, and great leaders down the line.

So I was really excited about that balance that they, that they were striking at the college.

When you say resources, what are exactly are the things that you look at that in your mind are things that have to be in place in order for you to be able to have success.

As you said, at the highest level, you may be able to have success within the confines of what your program can be because of those resources.

But if you want to compete at the highest level and be able to compete for national championships, like what you're talking about, what are 1 or 2 of the resources that you feel like, hey, this has to be in place in order for us to be able to compete for national championships at the D3 level.

Yeah, I think one of the biggest ones, honestly is, you know, assistant pool and what that looks like and who you can bring in, you know, the, the, the resources and amount and your sis, your, your assistant pool.

Not only does it have an effect on the type of talent you can attract as you're in your staff, but in the longevity of your group.

Right.

And when you can really provide, you know, a good life to your assistants and, and, and, and your staff, not only can you again, attract great people, but you can keep them around for a long time.

And I think in Division three, that's a really big difference maker.

You know, at TCNJ over the years, you know, we had elite assistance and whenever there were transitions within our program, like is normal across all levels of basketball, certain things go missing or get lost in the shuffle or you're reestablishing kind of our recruiting do's and don'ts and what we're looking for and things of that nature.

So some things occasionally dip, but having some longevity and connection from staff to staff or having the same guy for a significant period of time, I think makes a really big difference at our level.

And you know, Middlebury was able to provide that.

And again, we've been really fortunate at TCNJ that we, we were able to keep people around for a relatively long, you know, long time for what we were giving them.

But they also understood that I was going to fight for them to get that next job and be able to, you know, continue their growth in their career.

So that, that was probably one of the bigger ones I was, I was looking for in the search.

Obviously you're following a guy in Coach Brown that had a tremendous amount of success.

So in the process of interviewing, was there a discussion of, well, hey, the program has obviously been in a very good place for a very long time.

They're clearly wanting to continue that tradition.

You're clearly a different person than Coach Brown.

Obviously.

We know everybody coaches in their own style.

So was there a discussion of, hey, we've had success under this particular.

Again, the program's been doing well under Coach Brown.

How do we continue that?

And how is Matt Goldsmith going to bring something different and yet continue to excel?

Was that part of the discussion?

Yeah, 100%, I think, you know, I went into it because of my knowledge of Middlebury as an institution and the league itself.

You know, I understood or valued from my end that continuation and ability to grow the program while also understanding the traditions and the connection that the alumni have already had.

So that was high priority for me and would be high priority for me whether Coach Brown was Coach Brown or not.

I think at a place like Middlebury, that's really important.

And obviously with, you know, success comes great connection back to the program.

So I want to make sure we can continue to build on that and, and keep that moving forward rather than, you know, break those ties.

And so that was, you know, we've been intentional with how we've tried to treat that since I. I was hired, and we will continue to be intentional, but obviously, like, you know, filling a guy like Coach Brown's shoes comes with a lot of pressure.

You know, it's like a little nerve wracking.

You know, everybody in the department's winning national titles.

Coach Brown has made Final Fours Elite Eight, you know, won a bunch of Nezcat titles.

It's like you almost get some of that imposter syndrome, like, am I ready for this?

Can I really handle it at this level?

And, you know, I think we will be able to.

I'm confident we'll.

We will be able to, but, you know, the product on the court will let us know that sooner rather than later, probably.

How do you find out you got the job?

Yeah, so, you know, it's so funny, but in the modern age, you know, I got hired at TCNJ 10 years ago.

This wasn't a thing.

But, like, Twitter is super active now.

There's, like, there's guys out there, like, you know, trying to break news and this and that of every job search, and especially even D3 job searches.

So, you know, for a while, you're just kind of trying to ignore it and stay disengaged.

But I think somebody on Twitter broke that somebody got the job before I had heard anything.

And it ended up, you know, probably an hour later, I got a phone call and I picked it up, assuming I was not the guy, to be honest.

And Aaron, the athletic director at Middlebury, just, you know, we.

We had a little conversation to start, just catching up and Then, you know, said, hey, you know, I want, I want you to, you know, we think you, you, you'd be a great fit and we want you to be the head coach at Middlebury College.

And again, then your gears start turning, just, you know, the transition and your current guys and what that's going to look like.

And I got to talk to my wife and the whole thing.

But, you know, from the jump when I got that call, I was super excited about the opportunity because I did understand, you know, just how special a job and a place like Middlebury is and, and can be as we, as we move forward.

Tell me about the conversation with your wife.

Obviously, you've been talking about it.

Once the job comes open and you're going through the process, clearly you guys have already talked about the possibility that it could happen, but when you officially get the job, obviously now there's a lot of things going on.

As you said, you got a young family, you're going to have to uproot them and move and all the things that go along with that.

So what are the conversations like with your wife sort of as this process is going on and then eventually when you decide, hey, I'm going to take the job, what are you guys talking about?

What are you trying to figure out in those, in those days, right after you said yes and accepted the position?

Yeah, for sure.

I think, you know, the, one of the, again, one of the things that we found super special about Middlebury and we're, we're extremely excited about was during the process, you know, when we, when we went up there for the on campus interview, I, my wife came with me, right.

And again, I think when I got TCNJ, I was 29 years old.

We weren't married yet, we had no kids.

I would have went down there and taken the job for $5.

You know, like, I didn't care about any of that stuff.

I was so excited to be a head coach.

And, you know, as my career has continued and my family has grown, you know, a lot of your priorities start, you know, you're thinking about different things when you're looking at stuff like this.

So, you know, immediately it was like, hey, we're gonna move.

Like, is this the right time for the kids?

Switching schools, things of that nature?

Like, we gotta find a new house.

You know, like the housing market has changed significantly, right?

You know, like, what are, what, what, what would my wife Laura do while we were up there?

Like, how would we approach that?

You know, how, what, you know, like, all the logistics of Life, start getting involved in the conversation, you know, and.

And again, we were lucky that we're in a place, you know, our.

Our oldest, our twins are five years old, they're about to start kindergarten.

So it was really a good time for the family to, to.

To make an adjustment.

And if we were going to move, it was.

It was a good time to move.

And I have a.

One of my mentors, Sean Ford, who's the director of operations for USA Basketball, he has twins, too.

And we would always talk and, you know, when some of these jobs would come up, you know, one of the.

Some of the elite jobs in Division 3, like Middlebury, you know, Sean would always say, you know, you want to find a place you can be at for 10 to 15 years at the least when your kids are around 5 or 6, because that's when they start first grade.

And ideally, if you can get them into a school system and through high school, as a basketball coach, like, you're one of the lucky ones, right?

If this doesn't happen very often.

So, funny enough, they're five years old, they're about to start kindergarten, and, you know, the opportunity came knocking.

So again, after we talked through all the logistics and figured out those pieces, it was kind of like one of those jobs that was just a really great fit for us and our family.

And I think, you know, it's going to be a special place to work.

So I'm going to guess here that the next two priorities, after you kind of get your wife on board and the family and you sort of figure out that stuff, now you got to start thinking some basketball.

So two priorities, I'm guessing, are we got to figure out what the recruiting piece looks like, talk to the returning guys, figure out what the team's going to look like.

And then the second part is, obviously you talked about earlier how important it is from a staff standpoint to get a good assistant or assistance on board.

So tell me about those two things.

The.

The next class of guys and talking to the guys from the returning that are returning on the roster, because clearly they get nervous, right?

You bring in a new coach and suddenly the opinions of the old coach go out the window.

So guys tend to maybe have a little anxiety around that and then getting a.

Getting a staff together.

So talk to me a little bit about those two things.

Just the roster construction and the construction of your staff.

Yeah, for sure.

I think, you know, with Coach Brown retiring and when the announcement happened, you know, a lot of those returning guys had a lot, you know, a long Runway to think about what they wanted to do.

And you know, in the current era with transfer portal and things of that nature, like, you know, a lot of those guys could have been, you know, off and elsewhere and we could be, you know, carrying a 10 man roster before you know it.

So I wanted to quickly connect with all the returning players to make sure they were comfortable and we could start building our relationship as we move forward.

So, you know, right off the bat, current guys were first and foremost for, for phone calls and, and you know, having a team zoom and things like that.

They were, when the announcement happened, they were actually in finals.

So it was a little tricky.

You know, obviously Middlebury, an elite academic institution, so you're not, you're not pulling guys out of finals to have a basketball meeting very often.

So once finals ended, we had, you know, a team zoom.

But as they were occurring, you know, I was going back and forth on the phone with, with all the guys and had individual phone calls with each, each guy, you know, just to catch up, get to know each other and make sure we were all on the same page.

So we had a few guys in the transfer portal, you know, the majority of them all came back.

The roster stayed relatively intact.

And then from there, you know, I was reaching out to our incoming recruits.

There were five guys committed again.

We were able to retain all five.

And I think that's one of the, you know, special pieces about working at a place like Middlebury is, you know, your guys are coming there.

One A is usually academics, one B is usually basketball.

And so they're making that choice for, you know, the next 40 years of their night, their lot, their lives, not necessarily the four years of playing basketball for you.

So we were able to retain everybody and bring everybody back.

And then very, very quickly from there, the focus became, you know, who's going to be my lead assistant coach.

Brown had Sam Rubenstein.

Rubenstein, who had been there for quite some time.

I think he's going into his third year now.

And he kind of knew the ins and outs of the institution.

He had a great list already.

You know, we met a few times, we talked on the phone a few times.

We got together, you know, at the end of the day, you know, in college basketball in any level, you know, obviously you need a certain amount of, you know, urgency and, and feel for the game and all that good stuff.

But really your staff, you're hanging out with this person for 12 hours a day for six months, right?

You just have to be able to make sure you have a Good vibe together and you can be around each other and it's enjoyable and, and when that happens, usually staffs can, can, can, you know, fire an all cylinder.

So Sam was great.

He came down, he kind of got the test early.

You know, he stayed in our guest room down, down in PA outside of New Jersey.

And you know, my kids woke him up at like 6am the next day and he was rocking and ready to go from there.

So we retained Sam and he's done a great job of getting me up to speed on Middlebury and the processes there.

And he had a really good list together already.

So we've kind of meshed our minds together where he had some names and some lists together and then I kind of showed him what, you know, we want to look for in, in our recruits and some of the things that I really value and I thought we hit the ground running really well this, this summer and this spring and are in a good, good space for our 20, 26 class.

And what's incoming from there returning guys.

What kind of questions do they have for you when they're getting to know you?

Obviously you're trying to get to know them, but they're also trying to get a feel for you.

What were some things that they wanted to know from you or about you during those conversations?

Yeah, for sure.

I think, you know, like style of play, you know, how many, you know, like what's your, how many guys do you typically play?

Like, what does a practice look like?

You know, what are the things you value on the basketball floor?

You know, pretty simple, simple things, but obviously have a big effect.

You know, like I'm not going to play the exact same way Coach Brown played.

Right.

So maybe some of the players that were high minute getters or, you know, foresaw a lot of minutes down the line, their skill sets don't align quite as well with what we, you know, how we play.

You know, at the end of the day, you know, Sam and I are going to try to put the best players on the floor and, and adjust our style to that.

And over time, you know, as we get more and more recruits in, we'll be able to kind of morph into exactly what I'd ideally like to.

But you know, we're going to try to put the best product on the floor and you know, in basketball you need to get your best players out there.

So if it's, you know, to post, if it's two, two point guards, I don't know, we'll see.

I, I still need, I Haven't, you know, funny enough in Division 3, like, I, I have never seen these guys play in person.

I've only been able to see film.

So we'll know a lot more in the fall when we get into those first few practices.

How much film have you watched of your team?

Yeah, I think, you know, during the process, obviously I got on Synergy to watch some games and then, you know, once I got hired, I was, I was trying to pick through not only watching, you know, our team, but watching the conference and, and, you know, some of the elite teams that, that were playing in it, their style, you know, what are some things we need to be ready for or, you know, how can we be a little different or what can we bring to the table that's going to give us some marginal gains or advantages in certain areas of the game?

So, yeah, the big thing was first watching Middlebury and then from there was just kind of picking on some, some of the better games within the league and kind of how everybody else plays as well.

I, I've, I've obviously like stayed kind of close to it and paid attention to it just because of, you know, my experience at Amherst and my history there.

So I've always, you know, on a Friday night, if nothing's going on, I'll throw on a game.

So I've kind of stayed aware of it.

But it's, it's one thing to watch it, not worrying and a whole nother thing when you're trying to win some games in the league.

Obviously.

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What are some things that you have to concern yourself with across the league?

What you don't have to get into specific teams or things, but what are some things that you feel like you guys are going to need to do well in order to be able to compete at a high level in the league right away?

Yeah, for sure.

I think, you know, if you look at it, you know, the nescac, the size within the Nescac is, is pretty elite in terms of within the Division 3 landscape.

So, you know, you can't teach height, right?

We all say it, we all know it.

In basketball, size matters.

And then the other piece to it is, you know, if you looked at the two teams who were kind of in the front of the league throughout the year last year, Trinity and Wesleyan, they both made the Final Four last year with Trinity and eventually winning the national title.

You know, those teams are pretty elite defensively.

I think Tufts had a really good year defensively.

They were in the three hole.

All three are super well coached.

But if you can't guard, you're going to have some problems within the league.

You know, I think maybe back when I was playing or even as an assistant coach, it was more just kind of who can score the most almost at the time, the style of play.

And I think the biggest thing that's changed is, you know, teams are really digging in their heels and, and every bucket is, is a tough bucket later in the season.

So, you know, understanding that and you know, seeing how a lot of the teams play and again, just kind of trying to strategically select some actions that I think would be good for us and style play that, that can counter some of those elite half court defenses.

All right, let's flip to the other side of the ball.

What do you think that you have to do defensively in an ideal world?

What is a Matt Goldsmith team look like defensively?

Clearly, again, you're inheriting a roster for the most part that you didn't recruit to fit the exact style like you said earlier, that you want to play.

So it's going to be a process to get there.

But as you look at what you're going to need to do to compete defensively with the better offensive teams in the league.

What are some things that you're going to have to do really well on the defensive end of the floor?

Yeah, yeah, it sounds so simple and so goofy.

I, I truly believe you can play in any, you can play pack, you can play no middle, you can play, you know, hard head, you can play blitz, you can play drop ball screen coverage like I, I, I think you can play anyway.

At the end of the day, you got to contest shots, right?

You got to limit rim attempts and you got to clear the glass.

I, and I think whatever our style is, those are three things we're going to take a lot of pride in.

We got to contest shots, we got to limit the rim, right?

So that includes in the half as well as obviously out in Transition and then you got to clear the glass because if, if you're giving up a ton of boards, you really got no chance.

So we're going to make sure we do those things.

How we get there is going to be up in the air a little bit.

You know, I have, you know, some things I like doing at TCNJ and, and enjoyed over the last few years especially.

But again, I gotta, gotta see, you know, how we move and what we can do.

You know, the big thing for me is like, like a lot of your defensive principles are going to stem directly from your, your, your post and, and how they can guard what their foot speed looks like.

Because once you figure out the best place you can put your, your post in terms of ball screen coverage, a lot of your other principles will just fall into place.

Right?

And you know what we're trying to take away and how we're trying to guard.

So once we can figure that out and the more, the more film I watch and you know, see how that our health is on, you know, in the middle of October, I think we'll really be able to establish, you know, the exact principles of play.

But we're going to contest everything.

We're going to really protect the rim and we're going to make sure we're clearing the glass on every possession.

From a defensive standpoint, is there an analytics metric that you like to look at that you feel like in the past is sort of been a pretty good indicator for what you guys are doing defensively?

Yeah, for sure.

I think we really take pride in contest rate and we have at tcnj and so, you know, post game, when we re rewatch the film, you know, we're gonna watch it for specific things, obviously, but I'm always gonna have one assistant track our contests.

So, you know, on every field goal was, did we have a high hand?

Did we, did we contest?

Did we late contest?

How many open layups did we give?

And we're going to get a percentage according to what we saw from the game and we're going to try to meet a certain area with those contests.

When we at tcnj, we found that when we had on every field goal temp.

So even if you, you know, like, if you give up a live ball steal and it's an open layup, that that counts as an uncontested layup, obviously.

So we're not just like skipping over those things.

And we, when we got over 70% in terms of like having a hand in the face, high hand on the catch, not chasing it on the shot.

Our defense was pretty elite.

So that's typically a number where we're trying to look at in terms of a super efficient contest rate.

What about on the other side of the ball?

Offensively, what do you like to look at there?

Yeah, for sure.

So offensively, you know, honestly we would look at a few things, but eventually at tcnj, you know, similar to the contest rate, we were tracking throwheads, how many throwheads in a game we had and how many sides the ball got to within the offense.

And again, when we got to certain numbers every half, we typically put up a pretty big number on the scoreboard.

So throw aheads, sides changed and then actually another one that's a little bit different that I just remembered that we love to track is we, we look at assists, but we also look at potential assists.

So like, you know, if I get downhill and I snap a strike to you in the corner and you miss the shot, you know, we're going to, we're going to mark that as a potential assist.

And so when our assist plus our potential assist percentage is high on our field goal 10 percentage, again, we're usually putting up a good number.

So we don't want to only award guys because their teammate hit the shot in the corner.

We also want to track when they made the right decision through the right pass and it didn't work out in terms of the scoreboard.

Right.

So when we were having a pretty good percentage on that piece too, comparative to our total field goals attempted, those were two categories.

When we had high throwheads and good assist percentages, including virtual assists or potential assists, that was when we again would put up, you know, 45, 50 points and a half and, and really got cruising from there.

Yeah, those are both things that are process oriented.

Right.

When you start talking about making the right pass, but you don't always get the result that you want because the shot just doesn't go in.

And then I think throwheads, that's an interesting one to be tracking because I think to the coaches, the teams that I've, that I've coached, the teams that I've coached against, and even thinking back a long time ago to when I played, I think the ability for somebody not to pound the ball in the backcourt, but to look ahead and to get the ball down the floor, it seems like it would be a simple skill, right.

I get the ball, I look up and I just kick it ahead.

It like it boggles my mind sometimes that guys don't do that.

And yet you and I both know that it's a lot harder skill to teach or to grasp or to understand or execute than what it should be.

So when you're talking about that with your team, is it just as simple as making that a point of emphasis every day in terms of when you guys are going up and down the floor, making sure that guys are kicking it ahead and that you're showing them when they do it on film, when they don't do it on film, is it just as simple as that, as sort of making it a point of emphasis?

Yeah.

So I, I think you need to hit it from all directions.

So obviously a point of emphasis.

And when you see it on the film, you know, clipping it out and making sure you show it to the group, you know, I think you can also, again, like you were saying, with the process oriented stuff, you know, we're going to track it in the games, right?

So we're gonna, we're gonna emphasize it with film, we're gonna track it with emphasis, and then we're gonna create games within practice that encourages it.

So one of the areas, you know, one of our favorite drills we did, especially last year, we would adjust our shot clock from 30 to 15 and then I would put, I would count down three seconds from the ball getting in our hands, whether that was off a rebound or through the net, and you had to get it over half court within three seconds or it was a, a turnover or half court violation, a backward violation.

So the combination of the shortened shot clock in addition to the quick backcourt really created, you know, we were throwing ahead plenty, but we also had a guard who was super high level.

He didn't throw it ahead that much, but he was a jet, so sometimes he would catch it.

He'd be over in that second and a half, right?

So in both ways you're getting done exactly what you want to do, which is initiate the offense with speed, put the defense on their heels a little bit, and try to get to an action within, you know, five seconds of, of acquiring the ball, whether it's off a miss or make.

So we emphasized it with film, with, with conversation, we tracked it and then we tried to, you know, create opportunities to successfully do it within practice.

And, and on the other end of that, you know, you're doing this drill that's three seconds in the back court or it's a turnover.

And now defensively, you're actually doing a really good job of slowing the team down.

And so, you know, the, the byproduct of some of those drills was actually that our, our, our transition defense was super high level.

So it was created to get us going and moving with pace, but it ended up helping us out on, on both sides of the ball.

Yeah, for sure.

Right.

The best drills, even though it might have an offensive focus, there's clearly some defensive value and then vice versa.

I think when you can design your practices where you're getting the most out of everything and guys, whether you're on offense or defense in the drill, you're still learning the concepts that are part of what makes your team successful, then you know you're designing a practice in the right way to get the most out of every minute that you have on the floor with your guys.

Where are you in terms of putting together?

I don't know if you think of the year as a curriculum or a process of, hey, this is what we want to get in.

And it's not like when somebody gets a Division 1 job in May where you've got the entire summer to work with your guys to put things in so that when you hit the ground in the fall, you've already got a lot of your stuff established.

So how have you thought about clearly in the past when you're returning at tcnj?

You know, you have a rhythm of, hey, I know what guys I have coming back.

We've already gone through.

They know how I run things.

We know what we got to get in and when we got to get it in.

How have you thought through that process, taking over a new job at Middlebury where you don't know exactly how it's going to go?

How has that affected your planning for what you're going to do in the fall and then on into preseason practice?

Yeah, I think the biggest thing it's done is, you know, I think every coach comes in every off season.

You almost think like, you have to add something, right?

You have to add an action or a defensive principle or whatever it is because you know there's a new trendy one or you saw clinic or whatever it might be.

And I think, think, you know, going into running, you know, a program that I haven't been a part of yet and having a shortened time period to, to get everything in.

I think, you know, I know the, the style of play and I know the actions I really enjoy, but at the end of the day, I really have to select two to three of them and kind of go all in on those for the first three weeks or so.

And I gotta make sure they're ones that are, you know variable in their nature and can counter multiple styles of defense and still be effective and then the same thing on the defensive end.

I'm a big like rule of three person.

I think, you know, as, as the program builds and I'm here longer, I think you can add to that.

But for this year it's going to be like what are the three things that are absolutely non negotiable defensively that we want to be great at?

What are the three actions we want to be really, really good at offensively and, and kind of make sure that we're wasting no time within practice and we're focusing in on those areas.

Right.

And I've always felt like 80% of the game is transitions, ball screen or handoff offense and defense and then like can you make shots and close out to take away shots?

Right.

So like the 80% of our practices will probably be around those three areas especially early on to sure that we can, you know, be great in those spots.

And then as we move forward we're going to get into more specific, you know, like situations or scenarios or styles that we, we can do and kind of build on it from there.

I don't know what you've done in the past with your eight days, but I'm assuming your eight days, you're going to use them all this fall before, before formal practice starts.

Regardless of how you may have used them in the past.

I'm guessing all eight are going to come before, before practice starts.

Yeah.

So Mike, it's actually super.

I wish that NEZCAC does not allow basketball teams to use eight days.

So we are don't get any.

So it's just, I didn't realize.

Yeah, it's.

Honestly I kind of didn't even realize it until I talked about it with my assistant at one point.

Like how have you guys been using your eight days?

He's like, we don't get them.

So yeah, it's, it's devastating because I just want, you know, like, like you get a job, you just want to get in the gym.

You know it's going to be months since I get it to when I can actually be in the gym.

You just want to be in the gym and obviously try to take advantage of those eight days.

But yeah, we're going to be, we're going to be sitting tight trying to sort it out and hope, hoping for the best.

Hoping our leadership is really good.

Our pickup games are good.

So it'll be interesting, you know, who.

Your leaders are in terms of putting together pickup Games, you know who those guys are yet.

We haven't necessarily selected captains or anything yet.

You know, normally in a normal year, I'll do that in the spring so that the whole offseason we have a leadership group, but we'll do it probably closer to the season this year just so we can get a little bit more of a vibe on each guy.

But, you know, there is one player returning who was a captain last year, who's going to be a senior, Evan Flax.

And I'm going to assume that Evan will probably take the lead in that way, but, you know, I think the other.

The other seniors will step up as well.

And, you know, obviously, with a new coach, I think everyone typically wants to put their best foot forward.

So I'm hoping and expecting, you know, like, more leadership versus less, again, to kind of get off to a.

To a really good start.

But, yeah, we'll see what happens.

As you're talking to your guys about what they're doing over the summer, where are guys finding games?

Are they playing pickup?

Are they working out by themselves?

Just kind of.

What.

When you're getting a feel for what your guys are doing, where are they?

What are they doing?

Just in general, obviously you're not going to go to those specific guys, but just what are they doing to.

To.

To.

To make themselves better over the summer in the conversations that you're having with them?

Yeah, for sure.

I think it varies a little bit by guy, but most of them, you know, I think all of them getting in the weight room, I think gaining strength and.

And making sure their body is in a really good spot come back.

Coming back in the fall is.

Is.

Is paramount.

You know, from there, it varies a little bit with, like, access to good runs.

You know, I think one of the things we were able to help them out with pretty early on is, you know, just the network that Sam and I have and the people we know and, you know, reaching out to the guys and saying, hey, if.

If you're not sure where you can play or you need to run or, you know, you want to be connected to other college players or former pros or whatever, it might look like, you know, reach out to us because we might know somebody in Charlotte, we might know somebody in Baltimore.

We.

We definitely know people in New York.

I know people in Jersey, you know, outside of Boston, you know, a lot of our guys have internships in.

In some of the bigger cities, especially Boston and New York.

So, you know, we know the good runs out there.

We know good leagues.

We can get you, we can help connect you to people again, you know, on a good team and play, you know, really competitive, high level basketball over the summer.

And I think you need that mix.

You know, you don't need to be in 10 leagues, but I do think, you know, getting in the weight room three, four times a week and then having one or two like competitive summer games a week is super beneficial.

And then you can sprinkle in, you know, your skill work or whatever it might look like from there.

Some guys, you know, they're in maybe more rural areas or don't have access to a good game, but they're going to work a lot on their skills and, and their bodies.

You know, I think all of it can help, but in an ideal world, it's going to be a lot of weight room and, and just, you know, some good, high quality, competitive men's leagues.

Yeah, it's, it's tough, man.

It's a challenge.

My son's going to be a sophomore at Ohio Wesleyan and trying to find good quality pickup games to be able to play and supplement what he's doing in the weight room.

And when he's working by himself, you know, it's tough, it's hard to find.

It's hard to find good games.

At least find him on a consistent level.

And like he put together a whole list of not just guys from Ohio Wesleyan, but just guys that play here in the Cleveland area and just trying to pick a time and a day when, and find a gym where everybody can show up and be there at the same time and whatever.

It's, it's definitely, it's definitely a challenge.

It's not.

I always, I'm, I always tell them, I'm like, man, that back when I was playing, you just go and find a park or find a gym and everybody, everybody was playing pickup.

You can actually find good games now.

You go anywhere you try to find a good game with for good high school or good college players, man, it's almost impossible to find a pickup game that hasn't been like pre organized.

Like your, your ability to just show up at a court somewhere and have a good pickup game.

It's.

I don't know, man, I'd have a hard, I'd have a hard time.

In today's basketball world, when I think about just how easy it was for me to find, for me to find games back in the day, I always tell my son, I'm like, man, I didn't know how good I had it back in the day.

Totally a different Totally.

A different.

A different world.

What's been the most surprising thing about being at Middlebury?

Is there anything that, I don't know if caught you off guard, Positively, I don't want to say negatively, but just a surprise.

Something that maybe you didn't realize from the outside.

Yeah, for sure.

I think, you know, being in the league and at a rival institution, you.

You think you know everything about a place just from seeing it from afar, but I think until you're inside of it, you don't really understand it.

And, you know, I've been, you know, going into the job and talking to people and, and, you know, having conversations with, you know, people connected to the program and alumni.

You know, everyone talks about the community.

The community, the community.

And, you know, I'm sitting there thinking, like, is it that special?

Like, what are we even talking, you know, the community, what are we.

What are we talking about?

And, you know, now being in is super special.

And.

And again, I don't think I really appreciate that from the outside.

And now being inside it and understanding, you know, the care that, you know, not only Middlebury, the college, the alums and the program and the athletic department has for men's basketball, but, you know, the Vermont want as a state and the.

And Middlebury as a town and the surrounding communities and the amount of people who really care about the program and, and.

And how we're doing and making sure we're bringing in the right people and, and really good kids is.

Is on another level than I've seen or I've experienced.

So that piece has been really exciting and I think it comes with a ton of advantages and, you know, it comes with, you know, an eye on you too.

So you gotta, you gotta do things the right way.

And, you know, it's gonna be a different level of.

Of pressure than I had at tcnj and there's gonna be more eyes on us.

But again, I'm excited for that challenge, more so than.

Than scared or anxious about it.

Had a conversation with Coach Brown since you've had the job?

Yeah, for sure.

I think, you know, obviously when we were going through the process, you know, during the day up there, you know, I down with Coach Brown during the interview process, which was.

Was.

Was really valuable and, and super appreciated.

And then as soon as I got the job, you know, we had a conversation on the phone and then, you know, the day retired, you know, I made sure we.

We got in touch a little bit there as well.

So we've been.

We've been talking and again, Having Sam, you know, as a continuation from him to me, has been super beneficial and kind of understanding the program and the people within.

Well, so, yeah, you just try to.

You try to stay connect, you know, the people make up programs, and so being able to stay connected to the people who built it and care about it and, you know, I put so much time into it, I think is really important.

So that was a priority.

And we.

We tried to be intentional with how we behaved around it and making sure Coach Brown feels welcome.

You know, it's like, you know, the next year is going to be his first year not in the gym, you know, in 30 years, 40 years, you know, so, you know, he's always welcome.

He knows that.

But I'll say it here, too, so that every, you know, everybody knows it, but, you know, he can come to the gym anytime he wants.

The door's always open.

He's such a humble guy that I bet unless I invite him, he won't show up, you know, because he probably doesn't want to, you know, like, overstep or anything.

But I'd love for him to be around and stay around and, you know, have a guy to continue to, you know, pick his brain about certain things and what worked and, you know, how he got it rolling and how it kept it rolling and making all those NCAA tournaments.

So, yeah, just trying to build a relationship with them and show the proper amount of respect towards them and.

And value everything he kind of put into the program.

What advice would you have for a coach who takes another job?

Obviously, you have to leave behind the program where you were before, and for you, you built a tremendous amount of success at tcnj, and you were there for a while.

What advice would you have for a coach in terms of just that, the final talk that you have to have with your guys, with the people that are there at your previous school, as you.

As you walk out the door, what obviously was difficult to do, and clearly those conversations are never fun, but what advice would you have for somebody who's in that position?

What did you do?

Well, what would you maybe do?

I don't know if differently, but just how did you handle that part of it?

Yeah, yeah, it's the hardest part by far, you know, especially, you know, putting in 10 years at TCNJ and, you know, we were returning a lot for next year, and we had a good year last year, and I think we were going to do, you know, have another great year next year and, you know, the care you have for the guys, you know, from you know, junior year in high school or whatever, and you just build these relationships and you don't expect something like this to happen.

You know, I think number one is, you know, you just got to eat.

You just got to eat the frog, as they say.

Like, just.

You got to go in there and just kind of rip the band aid off and get it out in the open.

Be super transparent, super honest.

Hey, you know, this opportunity was something that, for my family and I, you know, it would have been silly not to, you know, look at and.

And ended up working out and making sense for us.

And, you know, it was never the plan necessarily, but, you know, we always talk about family within the program, right?

And, you know, if they're putting their family in front of the program, you know, I gladly support that.

They should be.

And that was kind of where this decision came from, is putting my kids and my wife first and foremost in our lives.

So getting in front of that early and then.

And, you know, don't assume, you know, I think this is really harder said than.

Harder to do than to say or whatever that phrase is, but don't assume the reaction of your guys or, you know, oh, man, I bet he's gonna storm out and be mad at me.

I bet he's gonna curse me out.

You know, he's gonna talk trash beyond, you know, whatever.

Just go in there and.

And be honest and straight up about it and, and see how it goes, you know, like.

Like, our guys were awesome about it.

You know, they were really happy for me and my family and congratulated me and, you know, again, we're just like, so genuine about it.

And I think we deliberately recruited, like, great people who are also great basketball players.

So I think that helped.

But just, just don't put.

Don't put.

Don't assume, you know, what their emotional reaction is going to be.

You know, just go for it, do it.

You know, kids are smart these days.

They know how it works and, and see what happens.

And, and when you're, you know, honest and transparent in that way, I think you're going to give yourself the best chance at, like, maintaining those relationships, you know, like, like I told those guys, everybody who's at TCNJ will always be my guys, and I'll always pick up the phone and I'll always give them advice if they need it or give them an ear if they just want to talk.

But, you know, if you don't handle that conversation well, or you try to beat around the bush or whatever, you shy away from it.

I Think sometimes that can, you know, stain the relationship when you had a great one for so long, right.

So you just got to rip the band aid and go for it, and.

And.

And we'll see what happens from there.

Honest truth.

Right.

And I think coaches learn that over time that you can't, as you said, you can't beat around the bush.

You can't dance around it.

You just got to come right out and say what it is that you think, whether it's in the case here of taking another job or when you're talking and having a difficult conversation with a player, when you try to fudge it and you try to soften it and you try to make it something that it's not ultimately end up, I think making things a lot worse than you make them better.

And people, whether they admit it in the moment, I think they appreciate hearing the truth and hearing what somebody's true thoughts and opinions are.

Somebody.

What.

What they're going to do as opposed to.

To, hey, let's dance around this.

And it does.

It doesn't work.

That doesn't work.

And I think sometimes coaches early in their career figure you have a hard time sometimes having those difficult conversations.

And I think we all get better at those over time.

They're still never fun, they're never easy, but you learn how to better handle them.

I think you did a good job of articulating what that felt like for you to go and stand in front of a room of guys who clearly you were connected to and you care about and that you want to continue to be able to have those relationships with them for forever.

And that's never easy to have that.

That type of conversation.

But I think you did a good job of articulating how that went for you and how somebody else could.

Could handle it.

As you look at this season, when you get to the end of it, how are you going to define a successful season for you at Middlebury in this first year?

Yeah, for sure.

I think it's easier said than done.

But again, I think you can tell from some of the things we've talked about so far of just.

Just, you know, putting together.

Putting.

Putting in place the.

The right processes and trying to make sure you're emphasizing the right thing.

So, you know, we're going to look for growth, improvement in the areas we're emphasizing at the end of the day.

And if we're emphasizing the right things and doing the right things as a staff, that should lead to better basketball.

Will that lead to more wins?

I'm not sure.

Because our, our league is so good, the coaching is so good, the talent is so high.

But you know, are we improving and kind of setting the groundwork and the framework for how we want to behave, how we want to act on a day to day basis, the culture we're looking for, how we react to each other in the tough times.

If we're doing that the right way, I'll be pretty excited.

Obviously, I'm as competitive as they come.

I want to win a lot of games.

But if we're showing improvement and we're getting better and we're at our best, you know, in, in February and March, I think that's, that's gonna, that's gonna tell me that we had a really successful season and, and were we able to stand up for what we believe in, in those tough moments or in those tough conversations.

So that's the challenge.

You just got to remind yourself of, of those things like what you really care about and what you value and you know, put them on a sticker right in front of your, your, your face in your office every day to make sure you're reminding yourself.

But that, that's what we're looking for, improvement of the season in the areas we're emphasizing.

Because if we're not, obviously we're doing something wrong, either we're not emphasizing it the right way or teaching it the right way or, or whatever that looks like.

What's going to be the hardest part of getting to that success?

What's going to be the most, the most challenging part of that?

Yeah, for sure.

I just think for me, and I think for everybody in this business, not allowing, you know, a poor performance or you know, a couple game skid or whatever might look like a bad weekend.

Right.

We play Friday, Saturday in the NEZCAC.

Like if you play poorly for 36 hours, you're owing to, it's, you know, and it's only 36 hours of the season.

It's like how, how can you not allow that to affect your mood on Monday when practice starts or, you know, your approach to the next game?

Right.

And are you going to be able to stick to your guns in those moments?

I think that's the big thing because, you know, I think we have the talent and the people in place to be really good next year.

But again, until you go through it, you're not quite sure.

You know, I haven't been in the league in a while, you know, I haven't seen those teams in a while again.

So, you know, I believe in the group we have coming back.

But are we going to be able to stay steady in those moments where maybe it's not going well?

Because it's not going to go well at some point?

And, you know, over the last five years, we've won 20 games three out of those five years, made three NCAA tournaments at TCNJ.

Like, if it's not going well, am I going to be wearing that on my face every time I walk into the gym?

Am I going to have bad body language?

You know, I, you know, I think I won't, but.

But I'm competitive, so we'll see when it, when it happens.

Right?

That's the challenge is kind of, kind of rise up to that occasion and be who you are, no matter how the result goes on Saturday.

All right, final question.

What are you most excited about?

What's the one thing that you haven't gotten a chance to do yet that you're most excited about?

Being the head men's basketball coach at Middlebury.

What are you most excited about?

Yeah, it's a great question.

I think kind of.

It sounds a little weird, but within the department, you know, obviously at tcnj, we had some legendary coaches, but within the department up there, there's just a lot of, like, national championship winning coaches.

So being able to just like, be at lunch and listen and ask questions and go watch other practices and this and that.

And then again, I say, you know, one b to that answer is to be able to experience that community and that alumni group and, and the love they have for the program in person.

You know, like that first homecoming, that first big alumni day when guys come back and, and come back to a practice and, you know, know those moments where, you know, the people who have kind of built the program, like, come back and you get to know them a little better.

I think those are really cool.

I'm.

I'm super excited about that.

I know, I know.

And I feel confident we're going to be successful up there.

And I think having those guys behind us and, and getting that relationship right is going to be one of the main drivers of that success.

So I'm really excited to be in those moments and kind of embrace those guys and get to know them and be around them and hear the stories that make up the program and the history of it all and hopefully form our own history as.

As we move forward.

Well, I can feel your excitement and clearly new opportunity, new place, someplace that you're familiar with, where, as you said, you're going to have a great chance to able to be able to win at a very high level.

So wish you nothing but the best.

Before we get out share how people can find out more about you reaching reach out out social media, email, website, whatever you feel comfortable with and after you do that I'll jump back in and wrap things up.

Yeah for sure.

You know Instagram and Twitter at Coach M. Goldsmith at Mid MB Ball for the the team accounts.

Obviously you can go on you know the Middle Bear athletics page and find me and my assistant.

You know mbbittleberry Edu goes to both to both of us so it's a nice easy way to get get in touch but we're available you know open open door policy.

We we love talking hoop and hearing from people so reach out if you you have any questions or just want to talk shop or whatever it might look like.

But we're around and it's been a it's been a pleasure.

Mike, I love your podcast.

I love listening to your to your guests and always learn something and take something away from from every week.

So appreciate what you do for the.

Guys game for the kind words Matt.

Really appreciate it.

Cannot thank you enough for taking the time out of your schedule tonight to join us.

Wish you nothing but the best in your new job there at Middlebury.

We'll be keeping an eye on it and to everyone out there, thanks for listening and we will catch you on our next episode.

Thanks.

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