1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,600 Do you find yourself trying to think your way out of what you're feeling, 2 00:00:04,140 --> 00:00:08,879 rationalizing the anger, or explaining the sadness or guilt, or perhaps 3 00:00:08,879 --> 00:00:12,210 you go straight to the chocolate or wine or pizza to soothe yourself 4 00:00:12,810 --> 00:00:16,950 instead of really feeling what you feel when you feel uncomfortable? 5 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:21,750 We've all done it, but the advice from my guest today is to stop trying to feel 6 00:00:21,750 --> 00:00:25,590 better and instead get better at feeling. 7 00:00:26,310 --> 00:00:30,180 Tamsin Hartley is a former physiotherapist who retrained as a coach and trainer. 8 00:00:30,390 --> 00:00:34,710 She's also the creator of the Listening Space, a structured process that uses 9 00:00:34,710 --> 00:00:38,295 what she calls clean language that gets at the heart of what you are feeling. 10 00:00:39,082 --> 00:00:42,712 In this episode, Tamsin guides me through a demonstration of this technique, 11 00:00:42,922 --> 00:00:46,522 which helped me uncover a new way of understanding my own intuition. 12 00:00:47,182 --> 00:00:50,512 And there are some great tips and techniques that you can use with 13 00:00:50,512 --> 00:00:52,672 either yourself or with a colleague. 14 00:00:52,882 --> 00:00:57,397 So if you are ready to learn how to feel those difficult feelings and 15 00:00:57,397 --> 00:01:01,822 feel better without being overwhelmed, then do have a listen to this episode. 16 00:01:03,834 --> 00:01:07,884 If you're in a high stress, high stakes, still blank medicine, and you're feeling 17 00:01:07,884 --> 00:01:13,340 stressed or overwhelmed, burning out or getting out are not your only options. 18 00:01:13,571 --> 00:01:17,501 I'm Dr. Rachel Morris, and welcome to You Are Not a Frog. 19 00:01:21,293 --> 00:01:22,253 I'm Tamsin Hartley. 20 00:01:22,253 --> 00:01:24,233 I'm Director of the Listening Space. 21 00:01:24,293 --> 00:01:29,633 I'm a coach and an author, and I love working creatively with people. 22 00:01:29,928 --> 00:01:31,400 It is great to have you on the podcast, Tamsin. 23 00:01:32,260 --> 00:01:36,610 I'm really interested to talk to you because you talk about feelings, which 24 00:01:36,610 --> 00:01:40,330 is something that I don't think we're very good at as doctors and people in 25 00:01:40,330 --> 00:01:43,930 healthcare, partly 'cause the pace of life is, is so fast it's quite difficult 26 00:01:43,930 --> 00:01:47,140 to have the time to feel our feelings, partly 'cause a lot of us think, oh gosh, 27 00:01:47,140 --> 00:01:51,220 if I just stop and feel my feelings, will I be able to stop feeling my feelings? 28 00:01:52,060 --> 00:01:55,360 And consequently, I think a lot of us have just suppressed them and 29 00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:59,815 sometimes we don't actually even know what they are or how to recognize them. 30 00:02:00,235 --> 00:02:03,655 But you've just told me that in order to feel better, we've 31 00:02:03,655 --> 00:02:05,695 got to get better at feeling. 32 00:02:05,785 --> 00:02:07,735 What exactly do you mean by that? 33 00:02:08,174 --> 00:02:10,004 I mean, you are absolutely right. 34 00:02:10,004 --> 00:02:12,614 A lot of people, most people don't want to feel particularly 35 00:02:12,614 --> 00:02:14,264 the uncomfortable feelings. 36 00:02:14,744 --> 00:02:16,244 I mean, why would you want to? 37 00:02:16,244 --> 00:02:21,644 And I think the problem is that many of us haven't learned as we grow up, that 38 00:02:21,734 --> 00:02:24,644 you can feel and it's gonna be okay. 39 00:02:25,244 --> 00:02:28,574 You can feel discomfort and you'll be met in your distress. 40 00:02:28,634 --> 00:02:34,034 And that emotional energy that comes from whatever fear, whatever, um, 41 00:02:34,034 --> 00:02:37,769 uncomfortable emotion that lies beneath the surface, it will pass. 42 00:02:38,159 --> 00:02:42,359 And what happens is we become in fear of the feeling itself. 43 00:02:43,049 --> 00:02:47,969 And there is a metaphor that I use, I'll just pick it up as a ball of discomfort. 44 00:02:48,249 --> 00:02:52,329 And one way of seeing the feelings that you have of discomfort is to 45 00:02:52,329 --> 00:02:56,379 imagine them to be like a ball that sits within you, not nice to feel. 46 00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:00,420 What most of us will do is we'll either pretend it's not there, 47 00:03:01,050 --> 00:03:03,311 we'll try and cover it up. 48 00:03:03,911 --> 00:03:06,581 We might try and hand our ball onto somebody else. 49 00:03:06,881 --> 00:03:12,251 We'll medicate, we'll drink, we'll eat anything to avoid the feeling. 50 00:03:12,641 --> 00:03:16,721 But what that lets your brain, your more reactive brain know, 51 00:03:16,721 --> 00:03:19,691 is that actually this, you need to be frightened of this ball. 52 00:03:20,050 --> 00:03:22,960 And so it's like pumping that ball up with fear. 53 00:03:23,595 --> 00:03:26,595 The feelings, that emotional energy doesn't get to just pass through 54 00:03:26,595 --> 00:03:30,705 your body, which it will do naturally if you allow yourself to feel. 55 00:03:31,049 --> 00:03:34,649 The emotional energy that builds up in your body, generates a stress 56 00:03:34,649 --> 00:03:40,879 response, which over time can create chronic physical symptoms, pain, 57 00:03:41,151 --> 00:03:45,381 bowel symptoms, I mean, the stress response affects your whole body, uh, 58 00:03:45,381 --> 00:03:47,301 or can affect every part of your body. 59 00:03:47,751 --> 00:03:56,031 Um, so if you learn to feel and to know that this ball of discomfort will in time 60 00:03:56,121 --> 00:04:02,267 deflate itself, the emotional energy will dissipate, iE you get better at feeling. 61 00:04:02,664 --> 00:04:06,183 The byproduct is to feel better over time. 62 00:04:06,846 --> 00:04:10,411 So what do we miss if we don't feel? 63 00:04:10,411 --> 00:04:12,331 Apart from feeling better? 64 00:04:12,331 --> 00:04:15,631 'cause you've let the energy go through you, what else do we 65 00:04:15,631 --> 00:04:19,411 miss by really avoiding those feelings and being fearful of them? 66 00:04:19,763 --> 00:04:22,433 I mean there's the negative impact, but I think there's also, 67 00:04:22,433 --> 00:04:24,113 well, many negative impacts. 68 00:04:24,113 --> 00:04:28,943 But I think that someone shared with me a metaphor for being with our feelings. 69 00:04:29,333 --> 00:04:35,053 And, um, I'm not a sound technician, but sound technicians will have, 70 00:04:35,323 --> 00:04:39,750 uh, a slider board, uh, to dial up different aspects of sound. 71 00:04:39,780 --> 00:04:41,220 You might want a bit more on the base. 72 00:04:41,220 --> 00:04:43,320 You want My might a little bit less on the treble. 73 00:04:44,070 --> 00:04:48,060 It would be nice if our emotions worked in that way, that you could dial down 74 00:04:48,060 --> 00:04:51,510 rage and fear and dial up happiness. 75 00:04:52,170 --> 00:04:57,480 But actually the way it works is more like a master control volume dial. 76 00:04:57,630 --> 00:05:01,860 If you dial down on fear and rage, you also dial down on joy 77 00:05:01,860 --> 00:05:04,303 and happiness, love, connection. 78 00:05:04,655 --> 00:05:08,765 So you can miss out on the whole range of your feelings. 79 00:05:09,055 --> 00:05:09,235 Wow. 80 00:05:09,235 --> 00:05:12,235 So you're saying when we suppress these feelings 'cause they feel too 81 00:05:12,235 --> 00:05:15,505 uncomfortable, we're also suppressing the good stuff and we're not then 82 00:05:15,505 --> 00:05:17,365 getting access to the really good stuff? 83 00:05:18,058 --> 00:05:18,418 Yes. 84 00:05:18,418 --> 00:05:22,348 And I, a lot of the work, so I, I work, um, with people with, um, 85 00:05:22,732 --> 00:05:26,782 chronic physical symptoms, uh, in, in a mind body kind of way. 86 00:05:27,142 --> 00:05:34,252 And a big part of that is actually finding joy, finding, uh, things that nourish you. 87 00:05:34,402 --> 00:05:38,962 So it's not just being able to be with the discomfort so that that 88 00:05:39,352 --> 00:05:41,692 emotional energy discharges itself. 89 00:05:41,902 --> 00:05:45,322 It's being able to feel the whole range of your emotions. 90 00:05:46,633 --> 00:05:48,583 You talked about feeling better not suppressing these 91 00:05:48,583 --> 00:05:49,723 emotions you've talked about. 92 00:05:49,753 --> 00:05:53,383 If you dial down the the negative emotions, you're also gonna dial 93 00:05:53,383 --> 00:05:55,243 down the positive emotions as well. 94 00:05:55,573 --> 00:05:57,373 What do we do instead? 95 00:05:57,523 --> 00:06:02,983 What do we, what ways do we suppress our, our feelings? 96 00:06:03,163 --> 00:06:06,943 I mean, I know one way I do is I guess just like, I'll think about this later. 97 00:06:07,693 --> 00:06:11,623 Or, you know, let's distract, let's distract myself with, with something else. 98 00:06:11,653 --> 00:06:12,103 What else? 99 00:06:12,103 --> 00:06:13,993 What else do we do to avoid stuff? 100 00:06:14,219 --> 00:06:14,939 Distraction. 101 00:06:14,939 --> 00:06:16,139 Absolutely. 102 00:06:16,229 --> 00:06:21,659 Um, covering it up with a, we medicate, we drink, um, eat. 103 00:06:22,199 --> 00:06:27,899 I think one other thing that we do is, um, try and pass that ball onto somebody else. 104 00:06:28,079 --> 00:06:29,699 You feel my anger for me. 105 00:06:30,068 --> 00:06:31,598 And we don't do that consciously. 106 00:06:31,628 --> 00:06:36,042 None of this is done consciously, or most of it's done below conscious awareness. 107 00:06:36,344 --> 00:06:40,709 But if I discharge that anger onto you or that fear or that sadness, 108 00:06:40,769 --> 00:06:42,209 then I don't need to feel it. 109 00:06:42,610 --> 00:06:46,600 Actually, equally, it is possible to take on the feelings 110 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:49,139 of others, uh, inadvertently. 111 00:06:49,548 --> 00:06:53,568 And you might notice that, for example, if you go into a meeting or you go into 112 00:06:53,568 --> 00:06:58,584 a, a situation at home, you suddenly think, oh, I'm suddenly feeling, uh, uh, 113 00:06:58,584 --> 00:07:02,064 a feeling about something, I'm suddenly feeling a bit annoyed about something, 114 00:07:02,184 --> 00:07:03,894 and I wasn't before I came in the room. 115 00:07:03,894 --> 00:07:06,774 You might be curious, possibly, there's a feeling that you are 116 00:07:06,774 --> 00:07:08,964 picking up from somebody else. 117 00:07:09,234 --> 00:07:12,686 You go in to see a patient and you find yourself getting 118 00:07:13,245 --> 00:07:15,120 a bit annoyed and enraged. 119 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:19,407 It is possible that that's a feeling that they have that is too 120 00:07:19,407 --> 00:07:23,215 uncomfortable for them to feel, and again, below conscious awareness. 121 00:07:23,627 --> 00:07:25,787 So feelings are pretty contagious. 122 00:07:26,063 --> 00:07:27,143 Uh, absolutely. 123 00:07:27,667 --> 00:07:32,252 I think one, one thing I've seen in myself and a lot of doctors is that yes, we can 124 00:07:32,632 --> 00:07:36,577 try and pass them on to other people, anger and stuff like that, but also I 125 00:07:36,577 --> 00:07:40,327 think I can think myself out of feelings. 126 00:07:40,595 --> 00:07:42,875 Is that possible or not? 127 00:07:43,340 --> 00:07:46,130 it's definitely possible and I would say a lot of the people 128 00:07:46,130 --> 00:07:48,500 who come that I work with. 129 00:07:48,970 --> 00:07:54,003 It's very easy to, or it, they can get to a stage of talking about the feeling, but 130 00:07:54,003 --> 00:07:57,033 talking, the feeling isn't feeling it. 131 00:07:57,573 --> 00:08:00,693 And I wonder if I could share a story here because this is an example 132 00:08:00,693 --> 00:08:08,073 of a client who really, feeling for her was just too overwhelming. 133 00:08:08,553 --> 00:08:13,243 Because when a feeling, when we don't allow our feelings, there is a risk that 134 00:08:13,243 --> 00:08:17,471 they kind of explode into the present moment, and it can feel overwhelming. 135 00:08:17,471 --> 00:08:20,921 And so suddenly this feeling that is no longer just a part of you 136 00:08:21,791 --> 00:08:22,936 feels like it's the whole of you. 137 00:08:23,797 --> 00:08:29,017 And she described, um, a feeling that she had very uncomfortable when she arrived 138 00:08:29,017 --> 00:08:33,667 at work, and she realized that she, she, she said, I, I have another metaphor. 139 00:08:33,847 --> 00:08:34,927 I have lots of metaphors. 140 00:08:35,197 --> 00:08:41,467 Um, we talk about having a bucket of, uh, capacity for balls of discomfort. 141 00:08:41,497 --> 00:08:45,397 And everything that everything that feels emotionally charged 142 00:08:45,397 --> 00:08:47,317 becomes like a bucket filler. 143 00:08:47,672 --> 00:08:52,322 And these little balls of cut, um, of emotion, fill that bucket. 144 00:08:52,322 --> 00:08:55,892 And she said I realize that by the time I get to work, my bucket's already full. 145 00:08:56,322 --> 00:08:58,392 I've got, uh, two children at home. 146 00:08:58,662 --> 00:09:03,822 One has ADHD, the other is autistic, and there's a lot of emotional charge. 147 00:09:04,372 --> 00:09:09,453 And she talked about, for example, this morning, my son slammed the door and 148 00:09:09,453 --> 00:09:12,063 she said, and I just felt, felt it. 149 00:09:12,123 --> 00:09:14,703 And she went here to her chest with her hand. 150 00:09:15,465 --> 00:09:20,025 And so we use that as a way of connecting with a feeling and, 151 00:09:20,115 --> 00:09:22,905 um, seeing what happens when you just stay with that feeling. 152 00:09:23,145 --> 00:09:24,795 'Cause she carried that feeling. 153 00:09:25,035 --> 00:09:26,865 She identified that she was scared. 154 00:09:27,135 --> 00:09:30,645 Now scared is a very old feeling for her. 155 00:09:30,945 --> 00:09:34,305 She has a lot of, uh, history of trauma in her childhood. 156 00:09:34,995 --> 00:09:38,447 So this slamming of door had triggered something for her. 157 00:09:39,353 --> 00:09:42,983 I said, okay, shall we just get a bit curious about that feeling? 158 00:09:43,343 --> 00:09:47,543 And I used these questions, clean language questions that I've come 159 00:09:47,543 --> 00:09:52,253 to found, find really helpful for helping to sum, uh, inviting someone 160 00:09:52,253 --> 00:09:54,953 to connect with their inner experience. 161 00:09:55,418 --> 00:09:58,686 So I said to her, you know what kind of scared? 162 00:09:58,746 --> 00:10:00,066 She said, well, it feels horrible. 163 00:10:00,066 --> 00:10:01,146 It feels inside. 164 00:10:01,146 --> 00:10:02,466 I can just feel it there. 165 00:10:02,886 --> 00:10:04,236 Anything else about scared? 166 00:10:04,236 --> 00:10:06,036 She said, well, I've carried it with me to work. 167 00:10:06,486 --> 00:10:09,096 This wasn't helping her concentrate at work. 168 00:10:09,876 --> 00:10:14,466 That's the work we are doing, being able to concentrate and fulfill her work, um, 169 00:10:14,496 --> 00:10:19,476 the, the commitments, but what she carried with her into work was impacting her. 170 00:10:20,886 --> 00:10:22,146 Whereabouts is scared? 171 00:10:22,176 --> 00:10:24,696 It's here in my chest right across here. 172 00:10:24,696 --> 00:10:28,296 Ah, is scared on the inside or the outside? 173 00:10:28,836 --> 00:10:29,676 It's inside. 174 00:10:30,516 --> 00:10:32,856 Does scared have a size or a shape? 175 00:10:33,036 --> 00:10:38,016 She said it's like a dark, dark storm cloud, and it's just filled with 176 00:10:38,016 --> 00:10:39,906 rain and the pressure is building. 177 00:10:40,296 --> 00:10:44,496 And the problem is, I've no idea, but you know, a storm cloud 178 00:10:44,496 --> 00:10:46,506 brings lightning and thunder. 179 00:10:46,716 --> 00:10:51,696 I've no idea when the thunder's gonna happen, and lightning can cause damage. 180 00:10:52,416 --> 00:10:59,221 And so this gave a very tangible sense for her of this unpleasant feeling. 181 00:11:00,381 --> 00:11:02,361 Emotional energy that had built up in her body. 182 00:11:03,132 --> 00:11:05,262 Asked her some more questions, she even drew it. 183 00:11:05,483 --> 00:11:10,254 And the next stage was to be able to stay with the feelings in her body so that she 184 00:11:10,254 --> 00:11:12,324 no longer needed to be in fear of them. 185 00:11:12,714 --> 00:11:15,954 What she does is she tries to shift away from them. 186 00:11:16,541 --> 00:11:18,763 So I said, well, let's just stay with that feeling, but know that 187 00:11:18,763 --> 00:11:20,683 right now you're safe in your body. 188 00:11:21,253 --> 00:11:25,543 Stay with that feeling of scared and just be curious about it. 189 00:11:25,963 --> 00:11:28,873 Just know that that's emotional energy and it will pass through 190 00:11:28,873 --> 00:11:30,433 your body in its own time. 191 00:11:30,869 --> 00:11:31,499 And she did. 192 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:35,390 At the beginning of this, staying with it, the experience felt like 193 00:11:35,390 --> 00:11:37,280 about a 9 out of 10 intensity. 194 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:37,700 For her. 195 00:11:37,730 --> 00:11:39,890 She thought she was gonna flip into a panic attack, 196 00:11:39,890 --> 00:11:41,270 which is not uncommon for her. 197 00:11:41,593 --> 00:11:42,853 So she stayed with a feeling. 198 00:11:42,913 --> 00:11:44,923 And I just stayed, and I said, can I just stay? 199 00:11:44,923 --> 00:11:48,163 Be curious what's happening now, and stay with that feeling. 200 00:11:48,313 --> 00:11:49,483 It reduced. 201 00:11:49,513 --> 00:11:50,383 It reduced. 202 00:11:50,913 --> 00:11:52,043 7 out of 10. 203 00:11:52,743 --> 00:11:54,753 6 out of 10, down to a 3. 204 00:11:55,498 --> 00:11:59,998 And for her, that was an absolute revelation, that she could have a feeling 205 00:12:00,028 --> 00:12:04,748 that was about to flip into a panic attack, stay with it, and it passed. 206 00:12:05,068 --> 00:12:06,838 She'd never had that experience before. 207 00:12:06,868 --> 00:12:10,364 And the lovely thing is that she's teaching that to her kids now, and she's 208 00:12:10,754 --> 00:12:15,254 teaching her kids about this bucket with the balls so that her, but her son can now 209 00:12:15,254 --> 00:12:17,134 say to his teacher, that's a ball there. 210 00:12:17,624 --> 00:12:20,829 And they've noticed a change in his behavior at school. 211 00:12:21,417 --> 00:12:25,672 What are we scared of that might happen with these feelings? 212 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:27,660 For many people. 213 00:12:27,660 --> 00:12:30,270 I mean, it's gonna be different for different people, isn't it? 214 00:12:30,690 --> 00:12:36,450 But it just feels so overwhelming that, um, I, I guess you fear that you're 215 00:12:36,450 --> 00:12:40,590 going to lose yourself in it, that you're not gonna be able to control it. 216 00:12:40,590 --> 00:12:46,260 But the, I, the paradox is that by not controlling it and allowing it, 217 00:12:46,680 --> 00:12:50,280 you actually have an experience of it passing through the body just 218 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:51,840 as this particular client did. 219 00:12:52,437 --> 00:12:52,767 Yeah. 220 00:12:52,902 --> 00:12:56,217 I, I, what I'm struggling with is this idea of feeling your feelings. 221 00:12:56,397 --> 00:12:59,997 So when you say to someone, just sit with it and really feel it. 222 00:13:00,717 --> 00:13:04,317 If someone hasn't been used to feeling feelings, what does that mean? 223 00:13:04,317 --> 00:13:05,877 To actually feel it? 224 00:13:06,632 --> 00:13:10,652 Uh, that is a really good question because some people really just do not, 225 00:13:10,682 --> 00:13:12,362 you know, it's all from the head up. 226 00:13:13,125 --> 00:13:16,530 And, um, I know people who've said, well, as I started to feel, I realized 227 00:13:16,610 --> 00:13:18,970 I always thought my body was just a taxi that brought me around. 228 00:13:20,550 --> 00:13:24,930 From A to B. And um, actually now I realize that my body 229 00:13:24,930 --> 00:13:25,950 has something to tell me. 230 00:13:26,790 --> 00:13:30,210 And I, I was all, you know, I felt very disconnected from my body. 231 00:13:30,330 --> 00:13:31,770 That's not unusual. 232 00:13:32,460 --> 00:13:36,660 And so you have to start little and be kind to yourself and just know that 233 00:13:36,660 --> 00:13:38,910 it's a practice, little bit at a time. 234 00:13:38,910 --> 00:13:44,940 And maybe you start with something, uh, more tangible, like, uh, like, you 235 00:13:44,940 --> 00:13:46,860 know, can I feel my feet on the ground? 236 00:13:47,483 --> 00:13:53,164 Can I feel my seat on the bottom, uh, uh, my seat on the chair, rather 237 00:13:53,164 --> 00:13:55,024 than what emotion am I feeling? 238 00:13:55,444 --> 00:13:57,754 If that just doesn't feel available to you. 239 00:13:58,384 --> 00:14:02,794 Even I worked with, um, somebody who really doesn't find it easy 240 00:14:02,794 --> 00:14:04,414 to get in touch with her feelings. 241 00:14:04,414 --> 00:14:06,034 She said, oh, I'm just gonna put my cardigan on. 242 00:14:06,034 --> 00:14:06,814 I'm feeling cold. 243 00:14:07,174 --> 00:14:07,624 Great. 244 00:14:07,714 --> 00:14:08,704 I'm feeling cold. 245 00:14:09,267 --> 00:14:12,657 Allow yourself to notice what your body is telling you. 246 00:14:13,432 --> 00:14:15,862 I mean that can sound daft, but some people don't even know when they're 247 00:14:15,862 --> 00:14:20,738 hungry because they're so not used to feeling the sensations that 248 00:14:21,158 --> 00:14:22,988 connecting with the interception. 249 00:14:23,173 --> 00:14:30,553 Does every feeling that we have, tell us something about our needs or boundaries 250 00:14:30,553 --> 00:14:36,639 or anything like that, or sometimes they just come and go for no reason? 251 00:14:36,942 --> 00:14:38,952 Well, I don't really know the answer to that. 252 00:14:38,952 --> 00:14:41,472 I suspect that we have most feelings for a reason. 253 00:14:41,472 --> 00:14:45,463 I mean, I, I sometimes say that is whether we pay attention to them or not. 254 00:14:45,613 --> 00:14:50,263 But, you know, at a fundamental level, emotional energy, feeling sensations 255 00:14:50,498 --> 00:14:54,693 in your body, feelings can be either emotions or sensations in the body. 256 00:14:54,966 --> 00:15:00,481 Um, sensations that in the body are just a physical representation of manifestation 257 00:15:00,961 --> 00:15:05,881 of, of the emotion that's underlying there, uh, beneath the surface, beneath 258 00:15:05,881 --> 00:15:08,491 those emotions, there's gonna be a story that you're telling yourself. 259 00:15:09,121 --> 00:15:11,701 Sometimes you have access to that, sometimes not. 260 00:15:12,096 --> 00:15:16,455 Becoming more aware of your feelings gives you a point of, checking in with yourself. 261 00:15:16,455 --> 00:15:19,365 What am I telling myself about this situation? 262 00:15:19,365 --> 00:15:21,165 What am I thinking about myself? 263 00:15:21,165 --> 00:15:23,805 What's the story I'm holding about this situation? 264 00:15:24,134 --> 00:15:30,944 But fundamentally, that emotional energy is designed to move you to towards 265 00:15:30,944 --> 00:15:36,404 safety and away from danger, if you bring it down to its very simple level. 266 00:15:37,028 --> 00:15:38,708 And I think the other thing is. 267 00:15:38,914 --> 00:15:42,094 when you get better at feeling your feelings, it enables 268 00:15:42,094 --> 00:15:44,820 you to discharge the energy. 269 00:15:44,820 --> 00:15:47,607 I mean, if you think about it, if this is your brain, a lot of the 270 00:15:47,607 --> 00:15:52,670 discomfort arises from, um, amygdala driven thoughts that maybe are 271 00:15:52,730 --> 00:15:54,770 unconscious, that there is threat. 272 00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:56,930 I mean, your magdala is designed to seek for threat. 273 00:15:57,756 --> 00:16:01,476 If you stay with a feeling and it settles down, you can then engage your prefrontal 274 00:16:01,476 --> 00:16:05,104 cortex and challenge the assumptions that you might have, challenge the 275 00:16:05,104 --> 00:16:10,474 thoughts, invite a kind of curiosity about, well, actually, is this true? 276 00:16:11,085 --> 00:16:13,845 And very often people will say to me, when they stay with the 277 00:16:13,845 --> 00:16:19,067 feelings, when they start to notice the story beneath the surface, ah, 278 00:16:19,067 --> 00:16:20,687 I'm creating this story for myself. 279 00:16:20,687 --> 00:16:22,937 I'm creating this pressure on myself. 280 00:16:23,597 --> 00:16:26,957 Of course, there may be times where there is real threats and you need 281 00:16:26,957 --> 00:16:28,806 to act, but it's not always so. 282 00:16:29,505 --> 00:16:32,205 I think this is fascinating, the patterns that I've noticed, yes, 283 00:16:32,205 --> 00:16:35,115 either we completely dismiss the feeling and we think right, or we 284 00:16:35,115 --> 00:16:36,405 blame ourselves for feeling it. 285 00:16:36,615 --> 00:16:37,905 Why am I feeling scared? 286 00:16:37,905 --> 00:16:39,825 Or why am I feeling stressed or sad or upset? 287 00:16:39,825 --> 00:16:41,325 I shouldn't be able, you know, I'm a professional. 288 00:16:41,325 --> 00:16:42,135 I shouldn't feel like that. 289 00:16:42,165 --> 00:16:44,994 And then you get the issue that you say they, they build up and you, 290 00:16:45,054 --> 00:16:46,074 you know, you're suppressing them. 291 00:16:46,074 --> 00:16:49,764 And actually that ball's getting bigger and building rather than getting less. 292 00:16:50,237 --> 00:16:51,257 I'm just going to interrupt. 293 00:16:51,257 --> 00:16:54,887 That's a lovely example because you've had this feeling and you go up into 294 00:16:54,887 --> 00:16:57,077 your head, why am I feeling like this? 295 00:16:57,347 --> 00:16:58,127 What's the answer? 296 00:16:58,127 --> 00:16:59,777 Probably shame I shouldn't be. 297 00:17:00,257 --> 00:17:02,417 Then you're pumping up your ball even more 298 00:17:02,658 --> 00:17:02,958 Yeah. 299 00:17:02,958 --> 00:17:03,888 That's interesting. 300 00:17:03,888 --> 00:17:07,797 'cause what I find sometimes is I am feeling a feeling, and then 301 00:17:07,887 --> 00:17:10,167 I'll go up into my head and go, why am I feeling that feeling? 302 00:17:10,167 --> 00:17:13,467 I might be feeling a bit disgruntled or pissed off, and I'll 303 00:17:13,467 --> 00:17:15,207 generally blame one of my family. 304 00:17:15,267 --> 00:17:18,911 Oh, it's because my husband's not being nice enough to me, 305 00:17:18,911 --> 00:17:19,961 or this or that happened. 306 00:17:20,231 --> 00:17:23,258 Sometimes I'm just hungry or tired. 307 00:17:23,258 --> 00:17:27,478 Or there's something that's happened maybe couple of hours ago that I 308 00:17:27,478 --> 00:17:31,708 haven't properly processed, so I'm then attributing the feeling to the wrong thing 309 00:17:31,708 --> 00:17:36,808 or to someone that it's sort of more safe to take it out on even I, I don't know. 310 00:17:36,813 --> 00:17:38,878 Is, is that a problem that you see quite a lot? 311 00:17:38,896 --> 00:17:43,156 Yeah, I mean if you think about that, it's a lovely example, you know, 312 00:17:43,216 --> 00:17:47,416 and if you think about that dark storm cloud, what's that gonna do? 313 00:17:47,416 --> 00:17:51,366 The lightning that she talked about could be snapping at her colleague. 314 00:17:52,036 --> 00:17:54,961 Um, it could be snapping at her kids when she gets home. 315 00:17:54,961 --> 00:17:58,921 You know, he, her, her child was just overwhelmed and needed to 316 00:17:58,921 --> 00:18:02,761 be met in his distress and she didn't have capacity at that time. 317 00:18:03,151 --> 00:18:06,421 You know, with all of this just to bring some kindness to yourself 'cause 318 00:18:06,871 --> 00:18:08,251 we're all vulnerable underneath. 319 00:18:08,613 --> 00:18:11,223 Are, are we frightened of other people's emotions as well then? 320 00:18:11,718 --> 00:18:12,233 I think. 321 00:18:12,702 --> 00:18:14,142 yes, we can be. 322 00:18:14,142 --> 00:18:17,142 And I think we become less frightened of other people's feelings when 323 00:18:17,142 --> 00:18:21,402 we felt those feelings ourself and we realize that we have capacity, 324 00:18:21,762 --> 00:18:24,072 and we realize that feelings pass. 325 00:18:24,488 --> 00:18:30,188 And I know that for myself in the work that I do with clients, I am 326 00:18:30,548 --> 00:18:33,068 not worried about their feelings. 327 00:18:33,781 --> 00:18:34,951 I don't take them on as my own. 328 00:18:35,745 --> 00:18:37,275 And I suppose there's also that. 329 00:18:37,275 --> 00:18:41,097 You, you don't, you can sit with someone in their distress, in their 330 00:18:41,097 --> 00:18:45,327 big emotions and not have to be, they, you don't have to take them on as your 331 00:18:45,327 --> 00:18:49,672 own, but you can still hold space for them for that feeling to be present. 332 00:18:50,208 --> 00:18:50,373 Yeah. 333 00:18:50,573 --> 00:18:53,028 I, I think with doctors, we don't just take them as our own. 334 00:18:53,058 --> 00:18:58,368 We feel either responsible for them or like we have to fix them or solve them. 335 00:18:58,789 --> 00:19:03,079 There are some lovely comments actually since, um, I interviewed, 336 00:19:03,139 --> 00:19:06,739 uh, a couple of, um, clinicians who are working in palliative care who 337 00:19:06,739 --> 00:19:08,569 are using clean language questions. 338 00:19:08,929 --> 00:19:12,739 And I'll read some of the comments because the impact that using some of these 339 00:19:12,739 --> 00:19:17,744 questions, uh, I mean essentially it's, it helps to prevent them to go into rescuer. 340 00:19:17,744 --> 00:19:21,001 I don't know if your, uh, listeners are aware of the drama triangle. 341 00:19:21,034 --> 00:19:22,146 We talk about that a lot. 342 00:19:22,146 --> 00:19:26,136 The, the, the, yeah, where you get, let just quickly describe the drama triangle. 343 00:19:26,136 --> 00:19:29,316 It's described by Stephen Karpman in the 1960s where you get into a sort 344 00:19:29,316 --> 00:19:32,316 of rescuer, victim, or persecutor mode and you just move around. 345 00:19:32,371 --> 00:19:32,611 Yeah. 346 00:19:32,611 --> 00:19:35,851 So one way of seeing this, and kind of my take on it is 347 00:19:35,851 --> 00:19:37,141 bringing awareness to yourself. 348 00:19:37,201 --> 00:19:40,111 What am I, you know, what, what role am I in? 349 00:19:40,111 --> 00:19:40,951 It's very easy. 350 00:19:40,951 --> 00:19:44,131 In fact, you are usually in trauma when you start pointing that, oh God, 351 00:19:44,131 --> 00:19:47,881 he's gone into rescuer, or she's gone into victim, but this is about you. 352 00:19:48,331 --> 00:19:52,471 Uh, three roles Stephen Karpman suggests when something's not working the way 353 00:19:52,471 --> 00:19:58,146 that you'd want it to you tend to go into one or more of these three roles. 354 00:19:58,146 --> 00:19:59,886 Rescuer, there's a leaning in. 355 00:20:00,036 --> 00:20:01,956 Can I suggest, have you thought about? 356 00:20:02,296 --> 00:20:05,116 And you might be saying these things out loud or just in your head. 357 00:20:05,326 --> 00:20:10,156 Victim, disempowered, full of shame, poor me, if only I were 358 00:20:10,705 --> 00:20:13,195 stronger, better braver, whatever. 359 00:20:13,705 --> 00:20:17,815 And then, uh, persecutor pointing the finger of blame, blaming others. 360 00:20:18,241 --> 00:20:22,201 So these questions, clean language questions, and I haven't explained what 361 00:20:22,201 --> 00:20:27,735 they are, but, um, they have helped these people not go into rescuer so much 362 00:20:27,858 --> 00:20:32,561 because, um, perhaps I ought to just explain what clean language questions are. 363 00:20:32,621 --> 00:20:35,411 Um, they were created by a New Zealander called David Grove. 364 00:20:35,741 --> 00:20:40,601 And, um, you, you are simply repeating back some of the other person's words. 365 00:20:41,540 --> 00:20:45,140 Few words, a short phrase, and using one of the questions that he devised. 366 00:20:45,140 --> 00:20:51,170 And these questions help to minimize the contamination of the conversation. 367 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:55,580 That's the clean element, um, with your assumptions and your suggestions. 368 00:20:55,580 --> 00:20:57,140 So you just repeat back some. 369 00:20:57,477 --> 00:21:01,587 And probably the most commonly used question in a clinical setting might 370 00:21:01,587 --> 00:21:02,907 be, is there anything else about? 371 00:21:03,233 --> 00:21:06,773 So your patient might have said, um, I'm really scared. 372 00:21:07,313 --> 00:21:09,668 Is anything else about feeling scared? 373 00:21:10,223 --> 00:21:12,113 My question might be what kind of scared? 374 00:21:12,428 --> 00:21:17,378 And uh, what she noticed is that it's changed the way she works. 375 00:21:17,378 --> 00:21:20,623 This is the, um, consultant in palliative care. 376 00:21:20,623 --> 00:21:22,003 She says, I listen more intently. 377 00:21:22,589 --> 00:21:24,479 I'm really noticing their words. 378 00:21:24,998 --> 00:21:29,108 I don't feel so much pressure to know the answer and to find solutions, and 379 00:21:29,108 --> 00:21:33,638 it feels easier and I'm not always thinking about the next question. 380 00:21:34,328 --> 00:21:35,468 So what kind of? 381 00:21:35,528 --> 00:21:36,518 Anything else about? 382 00:21:36,518 --> 00:21:39,668 She said they tend to respond quickly and often there's more to say. 383 00:21:39,985 --> 00:21:43,015 And there is another question that can be really useful is, what 384 00:21:43,015 --> 00:21:44,515 would you like to have happen? 385 00:21:45,122 --> 00:21:46,862 And she said, when I ask that question, there's often a 386 00:21:46,862 --> 00:21:48,602 pause and they think about it. 387 00:21:49,124 --> 00:21:53,674 And the response can be really clear and simple, something that can be achieved. 388 00:21:53,674 --> 00:21:55,954 I guess the fear is when you ask that question, well, they're 389 00:21:55,954 --> 00:21:58,954 gonna answer, they're gonna ask me something that I can't give them. 390 00:21:59,315 --> 00:22:04,985 Um, and they may have a whole host of problems with eight or 10 issues, um, 391 00:22:04,985 --> 00:22:08,795 that they're grappling with, but it gets to the core of it really quickly. 392 00:22:09,248 --> 00:22:11,288 And, and that can change everything. 393 00:22:12,053 --> 00:22:17,719 And it helps her to quickly uncover the real reasons behind a patient's visits. 394 00:22:18,061 --> 00:22:18,961 What a lovely thing to do. 395 00:22:18,961 --> 00:22:22,801 But the impact, um, for her, and I thought this was so lovely. 396 00:22:22,801 --> 00:22:27,181 She said, work feels fun and fascinating again, and it's put a 397 00:22:27,181 --> 00:22:29,101 spring in my step going to work. 398 00:22:29,101 --> 00:22:31,471 She's got 20 years of clinical experience. 399 00:22:31,561 --> 00:22:36,391 I know the medical stuff, but this things I'm always learning and, 400 00:22:36,421 --> 00:22:38,371 and she uses it a lot on herself. 401 00:22:39,271 --> 00:22:43,741 I get a better sense of what would I like to have happen and 402 00:22:43,741 --> 00:22:45,631 what needs to happen for that? 403 00:22:45,982 --> 00:22:48,262 So there's a different sense of agency. 404 00:22:48,816 --> 00:22:54,337 so you can use it for self coaching or really co coaching others within, 405 00:22:54,337 --> 00:22:57,801 you know, a consultation or just a conversation, but actually the beauty of 406 00:22:57,801 --> 00:23:01,521 it, yeah, you don't need to go through any big coaching courses or anything. 407 00:23:01,521 --> 00:23:06,021 It's just really looking at and reflecting back the language 408 00:23:06,021 --> 00:23:08,511 somebody's already using. 409 00:23:08,571 --> 00:23:12,471 And this is particularly good for exploring your feelings, is that right? 410 00:23:12,816 --> 00:23:15,696 It is particularly good, but you can use it for exploring anything. 411 00:23:15,696 --> 00:23:17,811 These questions are used in so many settings. 412 00:23:17,961 --> 00:23:20,131 Education, business, healthcare 413 00:23:20,602 --> 00:23:24,472 And what is it about these questions that make them so powerful, do you think? 414 00:23:25,093 --> 00:23:29,383 They are surprisingly powerful, because I think the person being 415 00:23:29,383 --> 00:23:31,423 asked the questions, feels heard. 416 00:23:31,423 --> 00:23:35,736 And there is something about hearing your words repeated back and not, oh, a 417 00:23:35,736 --> 00:23:37,476 friend of mine has a lovely expression. 418 00:23:37,896 --> 00:23:42,636 Um, she said that these questions help to prevent, prevent you from 419 00:23:42,636 --> 00:23:48,482 speaking into the life of others, and they help and it help others prevent 420 00:23:48,482 --> 00:23:50,252 others from speaking into your life. 421 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:54,870 And what are, on the courses I run, I always just invite people to notice, go 422 00:23:54,870 --> 00:23:59,430 away and notice when someone speaks into your life and says, oh, I think you should 423 00:23:59,430 --> 00:24:01,380 do this, oh, I noticed how you feel. 424 00:24:01,710 --> 00:24:02,130 Yes. 425 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:05,970 Um, this is what's happening, just notice how, how it feels for you. 426 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:09,030 Sometimes it can be helpful, but it isn't always. 427 00:24:09,541 --> 00:24:14,895 When somebody goes into fix it mode around you, it can deny you of exploring 428 00:24:14,895 --> 00:24:16,665 your own experience for yourself. 429 00:24:17,028 --> 00:24:18,348 And that, that fix it mode. 430 00:24:18,348 --> 00:24:22,398 Gosh, I, I see myself going into it so often. 431 00:24:22,698 --> 00:24:27,168 I'm, I'm not so bad at it with, you know, clients and stuff, but with friends, you 432 00:24:27,168 --> 00:24:31,098 know, oh, this is what you should do this, blah, blah, blah, and it's really hard. 433 00:24:31,098 --> 00:24:34,566 But just that, that phrase, what would you like to have happen? 434 00:24:34,776 --> 00:24:38,676 It, it's, it feels a little bit clumsy to me grammar wise, but I'm 435 00:24:38,676 --> 00:24:43,596 presuming there's some very specific reasons for saying to have happen. 436 00:24:43,791 --> 00:24:44,091 Yes. 437 00:24:44,091 --> 00:24:45,291 I can't remember what tense it is. 438 00:24:45,296 --> 00:24:48,711 I, I mean, I'm, I'm going to be honest, I don't use that question a lot. 439 00:24:48,741 --> 00:24:52,281 I don't use it a lot in my coaching, but I know that clinicians are finding 440 00:24:52,281 --> 00:24:55,341 it really helpful is a different kind of context when you're with a 441 00:24:55,791 --> 00:24:59,481 patient and there's information to be gathered and you want to find out what 442 00:24:59,481 --> 00:25:01,281 that patient wants to have happen. 443 00:25:01,491 --> 00:25:05,991 In my coaching, I'll often get someone to really stay with their current experience. 444 00:25:05,991 --> 00:25:08,211 It's a different setting, it's a different context. 445 00:25:08,566 --> 00:25:12,526 I wouldn't use that question with a friend necessarily 446 00:25:13,126 --> 00:25:14,596 doesn't feel quite natural to me. 447 00:25:14,596 --> 00:25:18,630 But it can be very helpful in a, in a setting where you've got a kind of 448 00:25:18,630 --> 00:25:23,340 contract to, I mean, people do use it with friends if it feels natural, but 449 00:25:23,340 --> 00:25:26,863 it's inviting you to go beyond the having happened and look back on it. 450 00:25:27,447 --> 00:25:28,317 That's just what I was thinking. 451 00:25:28,317 --> 00:25:30,957 'cause I can imagine if you said to a patient, what would you like to happen, 452 00:25:31,377 --> 00:25:35,247 that, well, I want to go out this room with a prescription of something and with 453 00:25:35,247 --> 00:25:37,077 their plan and go into this consultant. 454 00:25:37,467 --> 00:25:40,737 Whereas if you say, what would you like to have happened or 455 00:25:40,767 --> 00:25:42,717 have happened, which one is it? 456 00:25:42,717 --> 00:25:42,957 I, 457 00:25:43,152 --> 00:25:44,022 A have happen. 458 00:25:44,262 --> 00:25:45,642 What would you like to have happen? 459 00:25:45,747 --> 00:25:47,187 what would you like to have happen? 460 00:25:47,397 --> 00:25:50,307 So that takes you to the outcome, not the process. 461 00:25:50,569 --> 00:25:52,879 In a way, yes, yes. 462 00:25:53,059 --> 00:25:56,989 And, and I think what's interesting as well, because this, um, particular 463 00:25:56,989 --> 00:26:02,217 consultant said she, there's something about the intention, the mindset with 464 00:26:02,217 --> 00:26:05,302 which you go into asking these questions. 465 00:26:05,692 --> 00:26:09,442 I, I call it a clean mindset and it's an, I kind of, I don't know. 466 00:26:10,057 --> 00:26:13,267 Um, I'm curious, tell me how it is for you. 467 00:26:13,567 --> 00:26:16,567 I'm not literally saying that, but that's what I, and I'm, my clean 468 00:26:16,567 --> 00:26:20,617 mindset is saying, right, okay, well I'm assuming all of these things 469 00:26:20,767 --> 00:26:24,217 that you've got all of these things going on and I'm just gonna put that 470 00:26:24,217 --> 00:26:28,837 to one side, and I'm opening a space for you to tell me how it is for you. 471 00:26:29,368 --> 00:26:30,838 That's a clean mindset. 472 00:26:30,957 --> 00:26:35,637 And so she said that actually she notices when she drops into these questions, 473 00:26:36,252 --> 00:26:40,212 they come from her heart, whereas many other questions come from her head. 474 00:26:40,812 --> 00:26:44,465 And I thought that was a really nice, um, nice observation. 475 00:26:44,465 --> 00:26:48,305 You know, I, I'm, I'm, you are a human being with me as a human being. 476 00:26:48,729 --> 00:26:49,899 Tell me how it is for you. 477 00:26:50,174 --> 00:26:54,794 And then you're gathering information from which you might be able to, um, 478 00:26:54,824 --> 00:26:59,114 give a different kind of treatment plan, whatever it might be, the context in 479 00:26:59,114 --> 00:27:00,494 which you are working with that person. 480 00:27:00,973 --> 00:27:03,733 Is it all about the insight? 481 00:27:03,853 --> 00:27:08,593 I'm thinking, because I guess as the coach, as the trainer, what, what we're 482 00:27:08,593 --> 00:27:12,643 always trying to do is get people to have that aha moment that, that moments of 483 00:27:12,643 --> 00:27:17,143 realization, like, like you were saying with that lady who had that ball of, of 484 00:27:17,143 --> 00:27:21,733 fear and she, you know, she realized she was taking it into work and it was just, 485 00:27:21,733 --> 00:27:23,383 you know, she was really scared of it. 486 00:27:24,103 --> 00:27:29,481 For me, coaching doesn't work until someone has realized something, then 487 00:27:29,481 --> 00:27:30,981 they're able to solve that problem. 488 00:27:31,641 --> 00:27:34,881 But if you, if you're going around the edges, like so a lot of people 489 00:27:34,881 --> 00:27:38,211 come to me, you know, for coaching, say, oh, I just need to manage my 490 00:27:38,211 --> 00:27:39,891 time more, I need to manage my emails. 491 00:27:40,281 --> 00:27:43,581 And if I just coach someone managing their emails, that wouldn't work, 492 00:27:43,641 --> 00:27:44,901 'cause that's not the real problem. 493 00:27:44,901 --> 00:27:48,351 And we have to spend quite a lot of time working out what is the reason why they 494 00:27:48,351 --> 00:27:52,431 feel that they absolutely have to have be a inbox era or they can't do that. 495 00:27:52,431 --> 00:27:55,331 And often, you know, it comes down to the i'm not good enough or whatever. 496 00:27:55,331 --> 00:27:59,441 And then once you've got the actual issue underlying it, then you can 497 00:27:59,441 --> 00:28:00,671 work out how to manage your email. 498 00:28:00,701 --> 00:28:03,401 Is it a bit, is it another way of getting to that? 499 00:28:03,482 --> 00:28:08,072 it does get to the, uh, the, that you refer to. 500 00:28:08,912 --> 00:28:10,622 It's a really nice way of doing that. 501 00:28:10,802 --> 00:28:14,672 However, you have as a coach, when I'm working as a coach, have to let 502 00:28:14,672 --> 00:28:17,611 go of the desire for that to happen. 503 00:28:18,422 --> 00:28:22,652 You have to sit in the trust of, because then you are kind of, it. 504 00:28:22,652 --> 00:28:28,022 It's almost like you are like the, getting better at feeling, uh, rather than feeling 505 00:28:28,027 --> 00:28:33,922 better, it's almost like, as I see it, this is a bottom up modeling process. 506 00:28:34,149 --> 00:28:37,029 You don't know how you do you, I can ask some questions that help 507 00:28:37,029 --> 00:28:41,589 you figure that out, and I don't know where we're going with this 508 00:28:41,709 --> 00:28:43,719 because if I do, I'm not being clean. 509 00:28:44,379 --> 00:28:46,569 If I do, that's my model of the world. 510 00:28:47,094 --> 00:28:48,414 I might have a sense of it. 511 00:28:48,804 --> 00:28:52,584 I can direct questions in a place that might be useful for you. 512 00:28:52,854 --> 00:28:56,604 I have no idea whether this is going to help you or not. 513 00:28:56,664 --> 00:29:02,034 I just trust that as you gain awareness of yourself, something useful will happen. 514 00:29:02,664 --> 00:29:04,924 And do you always try and focus on people's feelings? 515 00:29:05,569 --> 00:29:07,759 Only if they want to go there. 516 00:29:08,150 --> 00:29:11,596 You know, I often talk to people about the difference between 517 00:29:11,596 --> 00:29:13,576 right and left brain processing. 518 00:29:13,870 --> 00:29:16,690 Um, our left, our world is very left brain oriented. 519 00:29:16,750 --> 00:29:22,030 You know, structure, sequence, plan forwards, label categorize. 520 00:29:22,501 --> 00:29:26,641 We don't often pay attention to what our body is telling us, so 521 00:29:26,641 --> 00:29:28,381 we only have half the story there. 522 00:29:28,441 --> 00:29:31,801 That's massively simplified of course, both sides of the brain 523 00:29:31,801 --> 00:29:33,181 evolved in everything we do. 524 00:29:33,691 --> 00:29:37,231 But we don't always listen to the wisdom of the body of what 525 00:29:37,231 --> 00:29:38,521 our body is trying to say. 526 00:29:38,851 --> 00:29:41,641 And these questions are quite nice for inviting awareness. 527 00:29:41,671 --> 00:29:44,424 That scared became a dark sta storm Cloud. 528 00:29:44,484 --> 00:29:48,881 An awareness that becomes very tangible, that enables you to likely to sort of 529 00:29:48,881 --> 00:29:53,351 step back from it and let it be part of you rather than the whole of you, 530 00:29:53,741 --> 00:29:58,331 and see what information it gives, and see what might work better instead for 531 00:29:58,331 --> 00:30:00,886 you without trying to force change. 532 00:30:01,757 --> 00:30:07,397 So how would you use this clean language model to, to start to feel your own 533 00:30:07,397 --> 00:30:08,927 feelings and understand yourself more? 534 00:30:09,594 --> 00:30:11,634 You can ask these questions of yourself. 535 00:30:11,994 --> 00:30:17,304 Um, there are the questions, um, are available in the book that 536 00:30:17,304 --> 00:30:19,134 I've written, the Listening Space. 537 00:30:19,484 --> 00:30:22,634 I mean, I could ask these questions of you so that listeners, or we 538 00:30:22,634 --> 00:30:24,194 could do a meditation, actually. 539 00:30:24,194 --> 00:30:27,524 We could, you could ask these, we could do a meditation on anything, and then 540 00:30:27,524 --> 00:30:31,604 your listeners could have a go and, and just seeing what arises for them. 541 00:30:31,867 --> 00:30:34,987 Let's, let's do that because I think it'd be good for people to experience this. 542 00:30:34,987 --> 00:30:37,627 Um, I know a lot of people listen to this in the car or 543 00:30:37,627 --> 00:30:38,647 on the treadmill or on a walk. 544 00:30:38,647 --> 00:30:40,387 Is that okay If you're walking around? 545 00:30:40,537 --> 00:30:44,406 You don't have to be like lying on a yoga mat with your eyes shut for this. 546 00:30:44,411 --> 00:30:45,186 This, do you? 547 00:30:45,186 --> 00:30:45,636 Or can you? 548 00:30:45,876 --> 00:30:46,356 Oh, no, no. 549 00:30:46,356 --> 00:30:47,346 You can be walking around. 550 00:30:47,376 --> 00:30:50,766 I suggest you're probably not driving, but, um, you, you know, so 551 00:30:50,766 --> 00:30:55,326 long as you stay paying attention, it's going to be stay conscious. 552 00:30:55,746 --> 00:30:59,886 Um, and okay, uh, you know, you can use these questions to, for anything, 553 00:31:00,216 --> 00:31:01,986 for any form of self-inquiry. 554 00:31:02,106 --> 00:31:06,516 And so one, um, one thing we could do if you like, is I have a set of cards 555 00:31:06,696 --> 00:31:10,236 that have different, you know, valleys, whatever, and we could use them. 556 00:31:10,236 --> 00:31:11,076 You could choose one. 557 00:31:11,541 --> 00:31:16,821 Just tell me when to stop and we could use that as a focus of, um, meditation. 558 00:31:17,135 --> 00:31:17,825 Let's go for it. 559 00:31:17,825 --> 00:31:19,865 So Tamsin is showing me her values card. 560 00:31:19,865 --> 00:31:20,615 Let's have a look then. 561 00:31:20,787 --> 00:31:23,517 uh, you don't get to choose, which as in, just let me know. 562 00:31:23,682 --> 00:31:24,432 Just stop. 563 00:31:24,694 --> 00:31:25,354 Okay. 564 00:31:25,624 --> 00:31:26,674 Ah, intuition. 565 00:31:27,318 --> 00:31:30,588 So we can use these questions just to bring awareness of 566 00:31:30,588 --> 00:31:32,358 what intuition means for you. 567 00:31:32,418 --> 00:31:38,193 And, you know, you may, um, find things arising for you and you may not. 568 00:31:38,313 --> 00:31:39,333 Either way is fine. 569 00:31:39,996 --> 00:31:44,076 I'm going to ask you a question, sorry, i'm going to give you an instruction 570 00:31:44,346 --> 00:31:45,996 followed by a set of questions. 571 00:31:45,996 --> 00:31:50,406 And what I'm going to do is pause after each question and just notice, 572 00:31:50,946 --> 00:31:53,061 um, what arises for you, if anything. 573 00:31:53,488 --> 00:31:53,728 so. 574 00:31:53,938 --> 00:31:54,808 Intuition. 575 00:31:55,197 --> 00:31:59,067 And thinking about what intuition means for you. 576 00:31:59,097 --> 00:32:02,907 So giving yourself time now, Rachel, to really notice for you. 577 00:32:03,741 --> 00:32:07,881 And, um, you might want to close your eyes or just soften your gaze as you do this. 578 00:32:08,433 --> 00:32:13,537 So just notice for yourself, what kind of intuition is that? 579 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:16,497 It is a, Like a personal wisdom. 580 00:32:16,869 --> 00:32:17,734 Personal wisdom. 581 00:32:18,433 --> 00:32:22,955 And is there anything else about intuition? 582 00:32:23,657 --> 00:32:24,917 it's quietly nagging. 583 00:32:25,625 --> 00:32:28,895 Ah, quietly nagging. 584 00:32:29,631 --> 00:32:32,991 And whereabouts is intuition? 585 00:32:33,351 --> 00:32:35,186 Um, in, it's in the inside. 586 00:32:35,336 --> 00:32:35,666 Yeah. 587 00:32:36,849 --> 00:32:37,959 I think it's, yeah. 588 00:32:38,229 --> 00:32:39,309 Lower gut. 589 00:32:39,309 --> 00:32:39,399 Lower 590 00:32:39,746 --> 00:32:40,736 Lower guts. 591 00:32:41,336 --> 00:32:41,966 Okay. 592 00:32:42,386 --> 00:32:44,381 Lower gut and it's personal wisdom. 593 00:32:45,899 --> 00:32:49,806 And does intuition have a size or a shape? 594 00:32:50,434 --> 00:32:52,921 Yeah, it feels a bit flat. 595 00:32:53,550 --> 00:32:54,110 A bit flat. 596 00:32:55,385 --> 00:32:55,505 Yes. 597 00:32:56,795 --> 00:32:57,085 Yeah. 598 00:32:58,325 --> 00:33:02,255 My listeners gonna think I'm mad because it's not, it's not there. 599 00:33:02,255 --> 00:33:02,615 I can't go. 600 00:33:02,675 --> 00:33:03,425 Oh, there it is. 601 00:33:03,545 --> 00:33:08,468 Because it, it's, it's when I'm intuitive about something, it just feels 602 00:33:08,468 --> 00:33:11,213 something's a bit off or not quite right. 603 00:33:11,213 --> 00:33:13,673 Or there's this sort of background niggle, so it's sort 604 00:33:13,703 --> 00:33:15,293 of like wrapping around things. 605 00:33:15,293 --> 00:33:18,383 It's not like a particular ball, it's not like a big ball that's somewhere, 606 00:33:19,013 --> 00:33:22,485 it's more of a, Almost like a sheet that would wrap around things. 607 00:33:22,822 --> 00:33:28,114 Okay, so it's almost like a sheet wraparound things and a 608 00:33:28,534 --> 00:33:33,994 background niggle, like a bit of, and does intuition have a sound? 609 00:33:34,515 --> 00:33:35,150 A low hum. 610 00:33:35,596 --> 00:33:35,886 Okay. 611 00:33:36,838 --> 00:33:37,798 Anything else? 612 00:33:37,858 --> 00:33:38,548 Low hum. 613 00:33:38,638 --> 00:33:40,678 Anything else about intuition? 614 00:33:41,108 --> 00:33:47,546 Sometimes it becomes a louder hum and that's when I worry that it's fear 615 00:33:47,546 --> 00:33:49,581 taking over rather than intuition. 616 00:33:50,161 --> 00:33:52,935 Okay, so there's a loud, sometimes it's louder. 617 00:33:52,935 --> 00:33:53,205 Hum. 618 00:33:53,775 --> 00:33:56,655 That's, you worry about, that's when fear taking over. 619 00:33:57,083 --> 00:33:59,513 Yeah, I, I never quite know when to trust when swishing. 620 00:33:59,513 --> 00:34:02,633 'cause I never know if it's like, it's a genuine, yeah, this is, 621 00:34:02,663 --> 00:34:06,593 this is the deep wisdom or it's like a, um, I'm just reacting. 622 00:34:06,893 --> 00:34:08,903 I'm just reacting to something with my amygdala. 623 00:34:08,993 --> 00:34:09,638 That's what I worry about. 624 00:34:10,583 --> 00:34:10,913 Okay. 625 00:34:11,423 --> 00:34:16,343 And, and intuition is like a, a sheet wrapping around 626 00:34:16,343 --> 00:34:19,173 a thing and it's a low hum. 627 00:34:19,721 --> 00:34:21,551 And sometimes louder. 628 00:34:22,161 --> 00:34:22,881 Anything else? 629 00:34:22,979 --> 00:34:24,599 Yeah, there is sometimes this louder. 630 00:34:24,959 --> 00:34:27,599 There's this louder thing where I feel that I really know something 631 00:34:27,599 --> 00:34:29,369 and then actually I'm, I am wrong. 632 00:34:29,729 --> 00:34:34,619 Because, you know, because I've, I've, you know, been interpreting it, it, it's 633 00:34:34,619 --> 00:34:38,279 that through the fear, shame or guilt stuff rather than the sort of background. 634 00:34:38,279 --> 00:34:41,549 But sometimes I know ignore, I ignore that init intuition in the background. 635 00:34:41,549 --> 00:34:46,436 'cause I really want something to be, to be true that isn't, for example, you 636 00:34:46,436 --> 00:34:49,856 know, if you were working with a certain person that you would really love to, 637 00:34:50,064 --> 00:34:53,114 that working relation to work out with, but there's something humming in the 638 00:34:53,114 --> 00:34:56,834 background that this isn't quite right, but you like, really want it to be. 639 00:34:57,080 --> 00:34:57,590 Okay. 640 00:34:58,910 --> 00:35:02,150 Like I said, dunno, you got a new partner at work or something like that and you 641 00:35:02,150 --> 00:35:05,672 re you're desperate for this person, but they're really not the right person. 642 00:35:05,672 --> 00:35:07,502 And your intuition's going, it is really not. 643 00:35:07,502 --> 00:35:08,852 But you're like going, no, no, no, no. 644 00:35:08,852 --> 00:35:09,542 I'm gonna ignore that. 645 00:35:09,542 --> 00:35:11,157 'cause we really need this thing to work out. 646 00:35:11,597 --> 00:35:12,287 Okay. 647 00:35:12,398 --> 00:35:16,328 In a background humming, and I could ask that question again and again. 648 00:35:16,328 --> 00:35:18,038 Is there anything else about intuition? 649 00:35:18,038 --> 00:35:20,408 But I'm gonna move on to just invite you to represent 650 00:35:20,408 --> 00:35:22,178 intuition on paper in some way. 651 00:35:22,238 --> 00:35:24,128 It might be an image, it might be a word. 652 00:35:24,385 --> 00:35:25,255 No one's gonna see it. 653 00:35:25,315 --> 00:35:27,025 Well, you can show it doesn't matter. 654 00:35:27,358 --> 00:35:27,568 Yeah. 655 00:35:27,568 --> 00:35:32,308 So I'm drawing like a, it's like a, I get background of sun actually with the beams, 656 00:35:32,308 --> 00:35:34,648 but sun, it's set, it's a setting sun. 657 00:35:34,958 --> 00:35:36,938 So like the beams aren't really, really strong. 658 00:35:36,938 --> 00:35:37,718 It's not bright in the sky. 659 00:35:37,718 --> 00:35:40,953 You can't see it, but you can, you can see the, the glow. 660 00:35:41,133 --> 00:35:42,303 The glow over the horizon. 661 00:35:42,939 --> 00:35:43,539 Okay. 662 00:35:43,539 --> 00:35:45,934 So what do you notice as you look at what you've drawn? 663 00:35:46,478 --> 00:35:50,256 That it's strong, but you have to notice it. 664 00:35:50,586 --> 00:35:53,316 You know, you have to be in certain, you know, if, if, if there's something 665 00:35:53,346 --> 00:35:57,156 other, other shiny thing over here, you're not gonna, you're not gonna notice it. 666 00:35:57,422 --> 00:35:59,732 Um, there'd be other, if there's clouds around you, you're not 667 00:35:59,732 --> 00:36:01,172 gonna notice it either, you know? 668 00:36:01,172 --> 00:36:01,892 So it's. 669 00:36:02,250 --> 00:36:04,920 It's strong and it's there, but there's other things that 670 00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:06,310 can, that can cloud it out. 671 00:36:06,450 --> 00:36:06,780 think. 672 00:36:07,110 --> 00:36:07,290 Yeah, 673 00:36:07,305 --> 00:36:07,815 Okay. 674 00:36:07,815 --> 00:36:08,930 Anything else about what you notice? 675 00:36:09,374 --> 00:36:10,964 I guess you could trust the sun. 676 00:36:10,964 --> 00:36:14,714 The sun is, is always there and it's all, and it's, you know, it's not 677 00:36:14,714 --> 00:36:18,884 like it's one day not gonna show up and it's not, not gonna be the sun. 678 00:36:18,889 --> 00:36:19,664 It is, right. 679 00:36:19,664 --> 00:36:20,474 It is the sun. 680 00:36:21,874 --> 00:36:23,974 So what do you know now about intuition? 681 00:36:24,282 --> 00:36:28,845 That it is that thing that's in the background that's quiet that you can 682 00:36:28,845 --> 00:36:36,221 trust that is always there, but there are things that cloud it out and that 683 00:36:36,221 --> 00:36:42,401 you need to be in the right conditions, I think to be able to pay attention to it. 684 00:36:42,877 --> 00:36:45,067 And what difference does knowing that make? 685 00:36:45,279 --> 00:36:49,529 I think when I have this gut feeling that there is something not quite right or 686 00:36:49,529 --> 00:36:54,129 something wrong with feeling about it, I clock it and I know it's there, and I 687 00:36:54,513 --> 00:37:01,757 then make the time to get into the right conditions to explore it and to really. 688 00:37:01,930 --> 00:37:05,980 To clear the sky and to clear the horizon so I can actually properly look at 689 00:37:05,980 --> 00:37:07,420 what, what it is and what's going on. 690 00:37:07,873 --> 00:37:09,733 And that's a listening space. 691 00:37:10,060 --> 00:37:12,700 That was really helpful actually, because I have been struggling with 692 00:37:12,700 --> 00:37:16,587 this, uh, I am quite intuitive with, with this, but I'm also quite impulsive 693 00:37:16,587 --> 00:37:21,027 with ADHD that, you know, I'm, I'm impulsive, so if I act on what I think 694 00:37:21,027 --> 00:37:25,347 is intuition, but it, it isn't, it's just fear or something else, then I'm 695 00:37:25,347 --> 00:37:26,787 gonna make a lot of wrong decisions. 696 00:37:26,787 --> 00:37:30,207 And I, and I have in the past made some quite, you know, decisions 697 00:37:30,207 --> 00:37:31,317 that weren't that helpful. 698 00:37:31,647 --> 00:37:37,587 So actually that, I think the, what I would do with this is, yeah, when I 699 00:37:37,587 --> 00:37:39,987 do have that background buzz of Hmm. 700 00:37:40,107 --> 00:37:43,707 Is then, is then sit with that and then ex, yeah, maybe explore the 701 00:37:43,707 --> 00:37:48,267 feeling more, try and work out what that feeling, what the intuition is 702 00:37:48,327 --> 00:37:53,314 telling me in much more of an unclouded area, make sure my nervous system is 703 00:37:53,314 --> 00:37:58,354 settled down, that I'm not experiencing the exact, the A threat at the time. 704 00:37:58,824 --> 00:38:04,023 And the lovely thing about Metaphor is that, you know, for example, if you were 705 00:38:04,023 --> 00:38:10,083 working with a colleague and you shared that they could say, they could help you 706 00:38:10,083 --> 00:38:11,843 check in, what's the sun telling you? 707 00:38:12,212 --> 00:38:14,616 Um, and, and I'm gonna share an example of, I mean, the 708 00:38:14,766 --> 00:38:16,536 metaphor is just fascinating. 709 00:38:16,818 --> 00:38:20,838 Connecting with your feelings can bring a richness of information 710 00:38:21,185 --> 00:38:23,435 that we don't always access. 711 00:38:23,495 --> 00:38:26,225 I think there are many, many cultures that access it better. 712 00:38:26,705 --> 00:38:31,865 But, um, this is a story from a client recently who works in the NHS and she's 713 00:38:31,925 --> 00:38:33,365 happy for me to share her metaphor. 714 00:38:33,365 --> 00:38:38,975 She said, um, she's autistic, and she said I can't help myself. 715 00:38:39,245 --> 00:38:41,795 When I'm working with people, I find it really frustrating 716 00:38:41,795 --> 00:38:45,339 because very often they'll, and she's talked about an oxbow river. 717 00:38:45,551 --> 00:38:49,151 Now I'm not a geographer, but my understanding is that they meander 718 00:38:49,481 --> 00:38:51,411 and sort of curve back on themselves. 719 00:38:51,471 --> 00:38:52,541 And she said, I can't help it. 720 00:38:52,541 --> 00:38:53,531 I've got to go. 721 00:38:53,741 --> 00:38:56,831 She said, I'm, I've got to go the shortcut, the neck of the oxbow. 722 00:38:57,101 --> 00:39:01,733 I get really frustrated with people doing this, and yet it 723 00:39:01,733 --> 00:39:04,938 had caused some difficulties in relationships with colleagues. 724 00:39:06,169 --> 00:39:09,409 And I said to her, well, that's really helpful because, um, 725 00:39:09,439 --> 00:39:11,239 this is really useful, the neck. 726 00:39:11,566 --> 00:39:15,766 You know, there would be situations I imagine in if you're working in ITU 727 00:39:15,766 --> 00:39:19,396 or a and e, you know, you're gonna be doing the neck more of the time. 728 00:39:20,236 --> 00:39:23,896 And so I said that metaphor could be really useful for you 729 00:39:23,896 --> 00:39:25,786 because you have a choice point. 730 00:39:25,786 --> 00:39:29,416 Sorry, I'm pointing to the point where the river starts to bend. 731 00:39:29,822 --> 00:39:32,252 And the neck is the possibility. 732 00:39:32,252 --> 00:39:36,812 I said at that point, you then, rather than just automatically going across 733 00:39:36,812 --> 00:39:41,852 here, you could have a choice as to whether you allow for a bit of meandering. 734 00:39:42,212 --> 00:39:46,592 Because what that does is get other people on board and you get the 735 00:39:46,592 --> 00:39:51,272 collective wisdom, but it means you can do it joyfully from your 736 00:39:51,272 --> 00:39:55,427 prefrontal cortex rather than, ah, got to go across the neck. 737 00:39:55,487 --> 00:39:59,777 And the impact for her was that she, next time she chaired a meeting, she 738 00:39:59,777 --> 00:40:04,157 was able to canvas opinion and people actually came up to her afterwards and 739 00:40:04,157 --> 00:40:07,277 asked about, you know, other areas of work that they might work together. 740 00:40:07,671 --> 00:40:08,691 And the impact. 741 00:40:08,781 --> 00:40:10,071 I mean, it's totally understandable. 742 00:40:10,071 --> 00:40:14,361 And you can see how the o the meandering would be frustrating, but she's 743 00:40:14,361 --> 00:40:18,246 starting to see that through this metaphor, she's got a choice point. 744 00:40:18,766 --> 00:40:22,426 It absolutely makes sense, and I think this idea of sharing this stuff. 745 00:40:22,816 --> 00:40:25,216 With colleagues, obviously you, you need to trust them. 746 00:40:25,216 --> 00:40:28,096 But it's really, it's really, really helpful, you know, so I 747 00:40:28,096 --> 00:40:30,766 can imagine my colleagues saying like, Rachel, like, just calm down. 748 00:40:30,766 --> 00:40:32,656 What's your what's the sun telling you here? 749 00:40:33,086 --> 00:40:35,726 Or are you in a position where, are there too many clouds there? 750 00:40:35,996 --> 00:40:38,606 Are you in a position where you can listen to the sun or whatever? 751 00:40:38,606 --> 00:40:42,596 And, and that, that's, I love that oxbow thing, you know, she's recognized 752 00:40:42,596 --> 00:40:46,466 that this is the time I'm gonna choose to let someone go off meandering. 753 00:40:46,752 --> 00:40:49,002 And that feels so much more empowering than having to put 754 00:40:49,062 --> 00:40:50,802 up with someone meandering 755 00:40:50,932 --> 00:40:51,222 Yes. 756 00:40:52,062 --> 00:40:55,430 So many ways in which these awarenesses can be helpful. 757 00:40:55,681 --> 00:40:58,752 I can see how what you're talking about will work with patients, 758 00:40:58,872 --> 00:41:00,852 with colleagues, with ourselves. 759 00:41:00,852 --> 00:41:04,272 So what we're talking about is this method of using clean 760 00:41:04,272 --> 00:41:07,479 language to help people examine. 761 00:41:08,364 --> 00:41:11,934 What's going on for them, without inserting your assumptions, without 762 00:41:11,934 --> 00:41:18,174 fixing it, without rescuing, without being a victim with them or with ourselves. 763 00:41:18,204 --> 00:41:20,274 And it can be really, really effective. 764 00:41:20,548 --> 00:41:24,328 And what I love is that it can help develop some metaphors. 765 00:41:24,958 --> 00:41:25,648 I love metaphors. 766 00:41:25,648 --> 00:41:27,148 They're so useful and they're so useful. 767 00:41:27,148 --> 00:41:28,888 Just communicating stuff with other people. 768 00:41:28,888 --> 00:41:30,448 It's a real shortcut, isn't it? 769 00:41:30,881 --> 00:41:31,331 Yes. 770 00:41:31,331 --> 00:41:36,041 And, and it can be if you use the wrong metaphor or if you don't hear 771 00:41:36,041 --> 00:41:40,301 the metaphor that the, your patient is using, you can use a mismatch. 772 00:41:40,301 --> 00:41:43,311 And I'm thinking of, so many of the metaphors in medicine are about 773 00:41:43,311 --> 00:41:48,186 war, the fight against disease, battle, germ warfare, you know, 774 00:41:48,411 --> 00:41:52,791 and that's not necessarily the way that people want to experience, 775 00:41:53,061 --> 00:41:54,831 particularly their chronic conditions. 776 00:41:55,168 --> 00:42:00,628 if someone wants to start using clean language or if someone wants to start 777 00:42:00,628 --> 00:42:05,286 being able to feel their feelings more, what three top tips would you give them? 778 00:42:05,781 --> 00:42:11,937 Um, so the top tips, I would give, and I think it's that simple notion that 779 00:42:11,937 --> 00:42:14,757 the aim isn't to get to, to feel better. 780 00:42:14,757 --> 00:42:17,367 It's about getting better at feeling. 781 00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:21,870 And bring kindness to yourself as you do so. 782 00:42:22,950 --> 00:42:24,840 This peeling feeling is part of you. 783 00:42:24,870 --> 00:42:26,910 It's a part of you that wants to be heard. 784 00:42:27,526 --> 00:42:29,236 Bring kindness to yourself. 785 00:42:29,596 --> 00:42:34,789 And also, yeah, that metaphor is a lovely way of bringing awareness to yourself. 786 00:42:34,789 --> 00:42:37,709 Wonderful, and can you just go through those three questions again for us? 787 00:42:37,709 --> 00:42:39,629 Because I think people will be like, oh, I, I've forgotten. 788 00:42:39,629 --> 00:42:40,384 What did she say again? 789 00:42:41,137 --> 00:42:45,997 Um, so probably the most conversational, um, clean language question, and I 790 00:42:45,997 --> 00:42:49,897 would use that every day just as a way of checking out is what kind of? 791 00:42:50,290 --> 00:42:54,970 So if my, I don't know, daughter comes to me and says I'm frustrated, 792 00:42:55,330 --> 00:42:58,660 or what kind of frustrated, it's like touch, it's like, okay. 793 00:42:59,170 --> 00:43:01,240 It just gives you a, a way of finding out more. 794 00:43:01,570 --> 00:43:03,670 The next is, is there anything else about? 795 00:43:04,114 --> 00:43:06,604 It's like a way of saying, do you wanna say more about that? 796 00:43:06,814 --> 00:43:09,454 Um, I can share the, the clean questions. 797 00:43:09,454 --> 00:43:12,484 There are links to, to the, there's a whole set of clean questions. 798 00:43:12,484 --> 00:43:16,482 There are 12 basic, 20 or so specialized, but those are really, 799 00:43:16,482 --> 00:43:20,352 you can go a long way with those two and the, um, and so anything, is there 800 00:43:20,352 --> 00:43:24,897 anything else about, um, and then what would you like to have happen? 801 00:43:25,472 --> 00:43:27,362 I'm gonna experiment with those three this week. 802 00:43:27,722 --> 00:43:28,622 That's wonderful. 803 00:43:28,652 --> 00:43:30,662 Tanzen, thank you so much. 804 00:43:30,662 --> 00:43:34,052 If people wanna find more about your work, um, get hold of 805 00:43:34,052 --> 00:43:35,782 you, uh, how can they do that? 806 00:43:36,237 --> 00:43:38,487 Um, I have a website, the Listening Space. 807 00:43:38,487 --> 00:43:42,117 I have a YouTube channel, but all the, uh, links are on the website. 808 00:43:42,177 --> 00:43:44,577 Um, links to information about the book. 809 00:43:44,577 --> 00:43:47,667 There are some free downloads of meditations, yeah. 810 00:43:48,110 --> 00:43:48,475 That's great. 811 00:43:48,475 --> 00:43:50,545 I think those are gonna be really, really valuable for people. 812 00:43:50,545 --> 00:43:52,885 So thank you so much for being on, and we look forward to 813 00:43:52,885 --> 00:43:54,265 speaking to you again sometime. 814 00:43:54,580 --> 00:43:55,750 Thank you for inviting me. 815 00:43:57,625 --> 00:43:58,555 Thanks for listening. 816 00:43:58,655 --> 00:44:03,115 Don't forget, you can get extra bonus episodes and audio courses along with 817 00:44:03,205 --> 00:44:08,035 unlimited access to our library of videos and CPD workbooks by joining 818 00:44:08,115 --> 00:44:12,575 FrogXtra and FrogXtra Gold, our memberships to help busy professionals 819 00:44:12,575 --> 00:44:15,545 like you beat burnout and work happier. 820 00:44:15,918 --> 00:44:19,438 Find out more at youarenotafrog.com/members.