Welcome to the Big Careers Small Children Podcast. My name is Verena Hefti. I believe that no one should have to choose between becoming a CEO and enjoying their young children for much too long. Amazing people like I'm sure you listening right now have found themselves stuck on the career ladder when they have children and that leads to gender inequality in senior leadership because those people don't progress to senior leadership and the same stale, often male middle class people leading our organizations. We must change this together and I hope that many of you listening right now will progress to the most senior leadership roles that you like where you can make the decisions that make our world a better place. Outside of the podcast. I am the CEO and founder of the Social enterprise Leaders Plus. We exist to help working parents progress their careers to senior leadership in a way that works for you and for your families. We have free events and resources on leadersplus.org where you can download helpful toolkits such as on returning from maternity leave, share parental leave, securing a promotion, dealing with workload challenges, or managing as a dual career couple. We also have an award winning fellowship community which is global for working parents who have big dreams for their careers but don't want to sacrifice their family. You'll join an absolutely wonderful group of people, a very tight knit, supportive group of parents who have your back. Together you'll explore what your career aspirations are and you'll get advice from senior leaders who are also working parents about how to achieve those aspirations. You'll get new ideas to combine your hopes for your careers with your hope for your family. And you are supported by people who are experiencing what you're experiencing yourself. I'm really delighted that a larger majority of our fellows have made tangible changes following the program. Be that becoming more senior in their roles, working shorter hours, having better flexible working arrangement. They always impress me so much with the courage that they instill in each other to do what is right for them without apologizing for having a family or apologizing for wanting that top job. Details are on leadersplus.org Fellowship today I'm chatting to Carin Isabel-Knoop, parent, author and in the day job Executive Director for Case Research and Writing Group at Harvard Business School. She's the author of the book Compassionate Management of Mental Health in the Modern Workplace. We talk about loss, we talk about control and what she has learned from caring for her daughter and her elderly mother. I found the conversation very thought provoking and I hope that you get something from it too. Thank you for listening.

Absolutely, Verna, thank you so much for having me here in the family of fellow working parents. It's really a joy. So who am I? I guess that's the hardest question that we're ever, ever asked. I do tend to answer with genetics. So I'm half French, half German. I come from two very, very different parents. My mother was a French Catholic educated class who married a German peasant pretty much after the war. They traveled a fair bit. My father worked in the Foreign service. So I grew up in many different places, including Asia and Africa, and then came to the US I work at Harvard Business School. I write case studies, which are basically stories about how people make decisions, work with a lot of leaders, and I manage a team of 20, 20 people. So I'm interested in how people learn, how people make sense of their world. I don't have many hobbies. I basically just write all day. A little bit nerdy. I have a daughter who's 25 years old, and I guess that is who I am. I like to have people hoover. I like to talk to people like you who are from different disciplines. I guess that's it.

Wonderful. And let me ask you a question that we ask all the podcast guests. What is one thing that you used to believe about combining a big career with children that you've changed your mind on?

So what? I got feedback recently from my daughter. I asked her, you know, what is it that I need to apologize to you for, which is a flip side of a practice in the Jewish faith around the high holidays. And she said that one of my greatest strength was that I tended to see a lot of different sides of every story. So, for example, she would come back and she had been upset at work, and she would say, you know, Verena pushed me off the monkey bars. And I would say, well, you know, maybe Verena was having a bad day. Had you bothered Verena before? And she said, you know, in those moments, I just wanted a hug. I didn't want a dissertation about everything that could have possibly happened. And now she's happy that she has this trait. But I think this trait has made it so that I've always tended to question everything. So I'm not sure that I had any particular persistent notion. I did think that the notion of having it all at the same time didn't strike me as logically possible. And I haven't changed my mind about that. I don't think. Maybe I thought that the workplace would be less challenging than it is, because in some ways, we have so many things going for us. We have much more neuroscience to understand how we operate. Many of us are more trained in conflict management than we used to be. Certainly I never had any such training when I was young. But we aren't. So maybe I've changed my mind about predicting an easier workplace when it hasn't felt that way to people.

That's really interesting and I'm interested. You mentioned the word predicting, and I'm really curious. You obviously have what many from the outside will say an absolutely lustrous career as an executive director at Harvard Business School. You have successfully kept a human being alive in your daughter and raised her. And you've also looked after your elderly mother. And I'm interested, when you set out on your career and family journey, what was your vision of how career and family life would be like? And did that happen or did something different happen?

So I actually had absolutely no vision. And I think I knew that I would want to share my life with someone. I wasn't that clear that I absolutely needed to have children compared to some of my other girlfriends. And then ironically, you know, I wound up with a wonderful life partner who happens to be my daughter, but not, you know, a life partner. Life partner. I got some very good advice, actually, from a faculty member at Harvard Business School when she found out that I was getting married. And she told me, she says, don't make the same mistake I did, which is, I thought, I have my career, I'll add marriage, and then when I have children and I'll add children. And she says, it's a finite vessel. You'll have to make choices about what you're going to do less of in order to add something. And I think that high achieving individuals maybe have this tendency to think that they can take more and more things on. So I did internalize that at some point. And I chose a career in academia for an employer that is very, very supportive of its employees with a fair, you know, bit of time off, especially in the US compared to what we have in Europe. So I think I made a choice or internalized that advice to some extent. To another extent, I didn't externalize at all. I don't think I made enough time for my marriage. I didn't make enough time for my husband. I was busy working. I, you know, needed to pay the mortgage. So I think, like a lot of us, I made mistakes, probably the exact opposite of what I was trying to avoid.

So it sounds like you didn't plan to be a solo parent when you set out. And I'm really interested in picking up on this because many of our listeners are solo parents. And when you look at the data in the uk, I'm sure it will be similar in other countries. Sadly, the career outcomes for women, especially women who are solo parents, are significantly worse then. And I'm not saying this to scare anybody, I'm just saying it to put up the facts that career outcomes are worse than of women who have a partner who helps to look after children. Obviously, I know there are lots of different arrangements and family setups, including co parenting, but I'm just interested. Did that ever cross your mind as a risk? And how did you still get to the place where you are now, despite the challenges? Sorry, that's long and windy Question.

No, I think the question, you know, reflects the depth of all of these aspects. Then, you know, these situations sort of entails. So maybe I'll just pick out a couple of things. So I definitely did not plan to be a single parent. I admire the people who go on that road on their own. I think it's extremely difficult. I did have the great luck of having a fairly extensive community of friends who then really helped me. And then I took in medical students, just have somebody in the house and somebody who could watch the baby while I showered. And at the time people said, are you crazy? You're going to live with perfect strangers? And I said, well, how else am I going to shower? She's 18 months old, you know, so we're back to this notion of compromise, which is I'll have to change the way that I live to accommodate this new situation. I think being a single parent is a really, really difficult situation because all of these changes in identity are usually the places where you have, you know, these inflection points that we also wrote about in our book on management of mental health in the workplace, which is these inflection points where you have a change of identity are really, really tricky. So I don't remember, you know, developing any form of depression at the time, but honestly, I don't remember anything of that first year that I was alone. You know, I just tried to get up and try to get my kid to school and, you know, she came home at night on the bus or I would get her or somebody else would get her and then I would just survive. So it's a very, very difficult time. And I think when I've seen people in couples, you know, wanting to separate, I've encouraged them to really think long and hard. Then if you separate, you might wind up with the worst sides of your ex partner. But you don't have any of the good sides, and, you know, that comes at a great deal of loss. I think, you know, employers or good managers, if they do learn that somebody is suddenly going through a divorce situation or one of these inflection points, that's really the place where, as a manager or as a fellow working parent or just as a fellow human being, we can really reach out and say, so how are you doing? The person volunteers something. And maybe the person doesn't need you to feel sorry for them. Maybe the person would welcome that. You know, they could come and walk your dog one day, you know, or I have a free afternoon. Is it okay if I pick up your kid at work for you? So I think I was very blessed to have friends who were willing to say, you know, tell me what you need. But then I was also able to say what I needed, which I think is very difficult for many of us because we're very proud. And it's hard to ask for help. It really is. But that would be one advice that I would give single parents. There's no shame in being different. There's no shame in being divorced. There's no shame in being married. But I think there's great risk in not being creative in how you fill these support gaps.

I want to pick up on asking for help, and it seems such an easy thing to do.

Oh, gosh, no.

In theory, when you describe to someone this is what you need to do, it sounds like a straightforward activity. What is holding us back so much? And especially when we're high performers, the listeners to this podcast, we're doing really well, want to progress. Why is it so unbelievably difficult to ask for help, and how can we get over it?

So I think some of it also comes back to this notion of seeming in control. So a lot of our professional life is, and even our success in school, success in sports is presenting in control. Like, you know, I know how to perform. I have a grip over my emotions. And maybe when we ask for help, it's an admission that we don't have it all together or that we cannot do it all. So back to the beginning of the conversation around, there's only that much that I can realistically do. And this is why I think, you know, this overlap between parenting and management is so fascinating. Why it's been really wonderful to work with Leader plus and thinking through, you know, what is that we can learn from parenting to improve our management is you have a set of resources, and then you have a set of needs and bridging that gap. I think sometimes also we don't ask for help because we don't like the help we get, which is the same thing that we see when we're managers. Right. So this form of micromanaging only I can raise my child is also a relatively new construct. You know, we used to outsource raising children to the village. My kids spend a lot of time at my neighbor's house and alternatively I would have their kid over and that was okay. And did they parent in a different way? Of course they did. But I didn't feel a need to control. So I think it's hard to ask for help when you feel that you want to present a certain way. And letting go of that need to present as perfect, present as heroic, present as all knowing is really, really hard when it's how we compete.

It is very true. And I think there is something in that word compete versus control. Because a lot of the listeners to this podcast, they go against the grain. They have to, well, they want to push themselves to go to a role where they can influence the world more, where they have more power and rightly so because women and also men who take out time for caring are really underrepresented in those senior leadership roles. So there is something about you do have to to an extent, manage your brand, be seen to do well in your career. But I agree, I think in order to be happy you need to let go and to be at ease with heaven. Things don't go well and don't go to your plan. And I'm just interested, I mean Carney, when I every I speak to you come across as such a personable person. But you must be very like surely to work at Harvard. You must be very ambitious and very, you know, you must be performing very well. I've learned it from what when I wrote with you, like your standards are super high in a good way. So I'm just thinking how do you combine that when you're that type of personality and please tell me off if I'm. I've completely mischaracterized you. How do you combine being that type of high performing personality with the letting go of control which seems so important for happiness?

So I'm a writer and so I'm attached to outcomes, maybe more than process. And so in my writing, in my collaborations, admitting to a co author, I really have no idea what this company is doing is okay because if I don't admit it, the draft will not be good at the end of the day. So I believe that things always come out somehow. But what matters to me is that it'd be a good case that will support the faculty's needs in the classroom, that it'd be a good piece that we write together that will help working parents. And if for taking care of my parents and taking care of my daughter, I think what I really wanted was for them to be able to live the life that they wanted, or in the case of my parents, to have the death that they would have wanted or that I thought they had told me that they wanted. And so how I got there and the extent to which my ego mattered was really secondary, I think. Very nice. And, you know, one thing that, now that I've used the word ego, one thing that struck me a great deal when my mother, who suffered from Lewy Body Dementia, some friends would come over to the house and they'd be like, oh, hello, Ms. Charlette. You know, do you remember who I am? And my mother would stare, and I would take my friends aside, and I said, you know, it really doesn't matter who you are in this human situation. Your role is to tell my mother she looks great and to bring her the cookies that she loves or blueberries. That's all our role here. And so I think this notion of what are you really trying to achieve? So I'm very driven. I'm not sure that I'm ambitious, but I'm very driven. I'm driven about outcomes. I'm not in control of processes. I'll have to think about that. It's an excellent question. Thank you for asking it.

You and I, we chatted before we came onto the podcast about this increasing need in society to control our kids. And I can really. So I know this is not parenting podcast, but it just really spoke to me because there is a lot of pressure, and I'm definitely falling into the trap of trying to control how well my kids are doing in the timestables assessment, making sure that they have team skills by forcing them to do a team sports, which in reality, they really don't want to do. They just want to do ballet, which I do not. I feel that this. I want to support what they're doing in theory. However, in practice, I am a little bit resentful having to take into ballet. So I'm just thinking how there is something. And there's additional work. This is new work. This work of controlling your kids hasn't been there to the same extent 30 years ago. So what is going on there? Why are we suddenly so focused on Controlling what happens to our children's lives. Why can't we just accept that what will be, will be?

So first, thank you for sharing, honestly, sort of your emotions and what resonated for me in your answer was you're using very managerial terms. Like, you're literally thinking, you know, what are the life skills that my kids will need? What will be on their resume? And so if you think of what this could do to kids, could be a little bit what we're doing to employees, and maybe we're literally burning out our kids in a way, which is, you know, setting expectations that are hard to match. So I think a couple of things have really changed. You know, we're in different generations, which is there was no social media when I was a young parent. You know, Facebook came along, 2006. You know, my daughter is seven years old. So you could compare with each other. Humans have always compared. People have always competed. Women have always competed. Also, I think, oh, you know, little Judy is so much better than little Bob and all of that, but when you add the sort of kerosene of social media to it, it's a lot easier, right? And so in a way, you're interviewing a dinosaur on this topic, because if my daughter didn't want to do ballet, I wasn't constantly on Instagram watching all the other kids being so cute at ballet competitions. And I was like, all right, she doesn't want to do ballet. So I think it's a lot harder now because you're performing for a bigger audience. As a parent, I think you used to be performing for your own audience, and your kid was also performing for a much smaller audience. Right? They didn't have to brand themselves. They didn't have to constantly refresh their feed. And even for kids on social media, you know, control, in a way is. And I'm not a psychiatrist, you know, I come to all of these topics from the side of a business risk, which is there's that of human capital at work, you know, in life, and how are we using it, and what can we do to waste less of it? So, you know, I know I partner with psychologists, psychiatrists, but it's not my field. But I would say that, you know, hyper control can be a form of maladaptive coping mechanism, which is when we feel a sense of loss, when we feel a sense of, you know, the climate is changing, you know, people are not civil anymore. Nobody believes in science. You know, the gender roles are all difficult. The news is all negative. So I think there is a general sort of feeling, of loss. And when we lose, you know, usually we do a couple of things. You know, one is we under control, which is, well, that's the way it goes. You know, the climate will burn out. Who cares? You know, that's not always adaptive. And then there's hypercontrol, which is, I will be a vegan. I will criticize anybody who drives an suv. Then there's escape, which is substance use, you know, and overworking, I think, would probably be in that category. We'd have to check with our psych friends if that would qualify. Or over exercising or eating disorders, whatever it is that you happen to control, which is your body and your performance. And then, you know, the final part is adaptive coping, which is, I can't control everything, but there are a few things that I can, and I'll focus on those and do my best to do those and understand that loss and change is just part of life. And also part of life is that you can't always get what you want. So not all of our girls will become or, you know, prima ballerinas. Not all of our boys will become, you know, the top dancers at the Bolshoi. So that's very long winded of finding the right place. Back to managerial principles, like, what are you really competing for? You know, what is the ultimate prize here? Is it that your kid do ballet, or is it that your kid have life skills that enable the child to deal with the fact that sometimes everything changes all the time and you can't always get what you want?

Definitely. I think it is definitely, for me personally, it's definitely the life skills one. And that's why I want them to do team sports. And I've never done ballet, which is why I'm a little bit negative towards it. But I will keep supporting my daughter's passion, albeit reluctantly. You sound incredibly wise when you talk about letting go of that need to control both at work and your family. Have you always had that attitude or how has it come about?

So actually, I'll have to credit maybe my daughter, although that's more contemporary. An example, that's about 10 years ago, but. And then maybe we will go back to my childhood. So when my mother started to display signs of cognitive impairment, you know, she would asked me what I were eating for lunch. Salmon. Five minutes later, the same question. And then I would get agitated. And my daughter. One day, I remember we were on holidays with my mother, and, you know, this little child just pulls me aside and she says, you know, mom, you loved me before I made sense. Why can't you love your mother now that she doesn't make sense anymore? And whenever I think of that, it makes me tear up because it was so profound, so wise and so true. And it was literally like a light came on and I was like, my mother's suffering from a disease. It's a terminal cognitive condition. My option here is to take care of her to the best of my abilities for all her needs, much as I did when my daughter was small. So the wise one here, I think, is my daughter Verena, not necessarily me. Because that put really a very, very sort of flashlight on this issue of what am I really trying to do, to what extent can I control it? So I mentioned that my parents were very different at the beginning of our conversation. My parents had a relatively passionate but challenging union. And that dissolved. You know, I was very happy playing in Africa, on the beach. And all at once I was in Paris in, you know, a back courtyard, having to get up at school and wear shoes. And it was all very unfortunate. And I think that early lesson of the separation of my parents taught me I should be happy for every day that I have. Because tomorrow could be absolutely, totally, suboptimally different. And why I made that choice somehow as a six year old is a function also of genetics and context. I could have made a very different choice. I could have become a very different child. You know, fear, anxiety serves a purpose, but at some point it doesn't. And probably at some point there, this little kid in this basement apartment was like, all right, well, here I am. I have really no choice. And that's. I have the choice to sort of make the most of it. But it took me a while. It took me a while. So maybe a combination of both of those.

Interesting. Thank you for sharing so openly. And it's fascinating how these very challenging moments are shaped from my perspective is a very rare strength that not many people have. That ability to focus and be driven, but also to accept that not everything is in your control.

I think you could also say that, you know, maybe that is also a form of maladaptive coping, which is you're over intellectualizing situations. So I think that's probably my big weakness, which is, you know, when my daughter just wanted me to say, you know, the person who pushed you off the monkey bar is a terrible human being. And, you know, I'll have them punished and I love you and you want spaghetti. You know, I over intellectualized the situation. So it works. In a way, my approach, Verena but it all comes at a cost, like all of our survival techniques. I think it also makes me good at my job, which is, you know, cases present, there are different options for all the scenarios. So I think it's also just partly in my personality. I think the really tricky thing with loss and control with children, and you said to what extent do you encourage your kids to do team sports and ballet? Is that the role of the parent is to give children the opportunity to develop skills that they do need and I think push them to a certain extent. But then you have to figure out to what extent are you pushing for your you or are you pushing for them? And when they're resisting or something is going on or even in academic performance, you know, is this something that is a temporary situation or is it a reflection of an underlying fear of, you know, being in groups, of being present? So I think all of this is very tricky as a parent to pick what you do let go of and what you push for.

But I think the bottom line is that it is an illusion that you are going to control everything. And I'm saying that not as a sage piece of advice, but as an actual realization, because I am definitely not in the wise camp. I am more in the control everything, all the time camp. So I think there is no way around it. You absolutely have to let go of some of those things and give away power. But there's never come back a perfect setup.

I would say no. And I think the way to think about those, you know, and there's a lot of literature around change management in business schools. You know, one thing that always surprises me about people's lack of People don't like to change, but yet the status quo that we inhabit is a product of change. Like, you know, we would have met 200 years ago, we would have been in very different circumstances, and we would have said, oh, isn't it great to be here without sanitation? No. And, you know, our worlds today are themselves a product of change. And then we don't want to let go of the stability of what we have. So it's always been hard, but the world is hard too. You know, any news you open, Everything feels out of control. Our leaders feel out of control. So I think it's totally. It's a very normal reaction, I think, for us to want the best for our children and to control what we can, which is what you're doing.

Well, trying to. But I think that's why it's good to recognize that they're all people and individuals as well, and not just subjects of our control. So that makes me sound like a very bad despot, which I may be, but you know, that's okay.

No, but I think the same dynamic is true at work, which is, you know, if you, if you treat your employees like objects or pawns to be moved, and if we're doing the same thing to our children, they know that we're managing them and they know that we're performing through them. And then the pressure on these kids to make sure that they don't disappoint you must be really, really challenging. I mean, I think my parents expectations was I would, I was a terrible tomboy, so then they hoped that I would come home with not another wound. And you know, that was where they placed the bar, probably.

Fair enough. And you're still alive, which is good.

You're still alive. Yes.

One of the biggest areas that you can't control is that area of getting pregnant and staying pregnant. Now very often we can control absolutely every aspect of our life or what we think we can. We can order something off a big online platform easily. We don't have to wait for a horse. Anyway, bad analogy. But there's a lot that we can control nowadays. But that is one thing that we can't control. And pregnancy loss is so unpredictable. It is so difficult to be with. I was wondering what you've learned from your writing and your research about that transition that pregnancy loss creates in state.

So last week was perinatal loss day in the US so I've miscarried twice. There are about 2 million miscarriages in the US every year, about a million voluntary terminations of pregnancy. So just open our hearts to each other for just a second and to the lives that and that weren't before. We dive sort of in the rational side of this. You know, it is a very particular kind of loss. Many of the losses that we experience are. So we've talked about sort of loss of control, which tends to be more diffuse. But you know, when we lose a parent, it's like, oh, I'm so sorry. For the most part, you know, these perinatal losses are invisible or they're just to our very close ones. And then we expect to go back to the office and just pretend that everything is okay. And so in the US and I've written a couple of articles also about what employers can do to support grief and bereavement. There are more and more employers in the US that are providing pregnancy loss time off. But there too, it tends to be one or two days, if you're undergoing assistive reproductive technology, there may be, you know, many more days and many much more time that is needed, much more counseling. So I think there's a lot here that employers could be doing. I think accepting that nature, where things take a course, let's say for spontaneous abortions of miscarriages, was very difficult for me also. And I think reaching out to each other, one of the wonderful things I think about social media after criticizing it and about us being all connected is that it's a lot easier for us to talk about these things. So when I miscarried, I didn't know about anybody else. But now when we talk about it more, you understand that you are not alone. You understand that it is not shameful. So it's one of these areas where I think the more we talk about, like you're enabling me to vocalize emotions and really have talked away, I think is a real blessing because then we can be there for each other and understand that we are not alone. One area of reproduction that I find really interesting, and I don't know what the legislation is in the US is around genomic testing. So in the US now there are services that enable you to, you know, test an embryo, not just for ivf, but in other contexts. And so we're seeing this same notion of trying to hyper control everything, making sure that we produce a healthy baby extend to conception, which to me is really problematic in a way because now I'm not just controlling what sports my kid does, I'm literally picking traits, performance traits, you know, breeding these hyper performance children. But I think that's one way for parents to try to have the best possible child because they themselves feel overwhelmed about what could happen if the child were not.

That's very true. Just even the basic prenatal testing, in that if you are of a certain age and you're pregnant, you will automatically be put into the pile of this is the test you need to have. And what you're saying really resonates and thank you for being so open.

Another thing that I think has really changed, which is wonderful, and Professor Ryan Buhl at HBS recently wrote a case on Seven Starling, which is a company that provides perinatal and postpartum mental health care. And so one thing that is not talked about, I think enough, is that when there is a pregnancy interruption, the whole host of identity challenges, the whole host of just hormonal changes, physical changes, depletion, tiredness, exhaustion, unmet expectations are extremely complicated. And that is you Know, ambiguous loss that doesn't really get acknowledged. So one thing that I would encourage anyone who has or is experiencing pregnancy loss is to use more of these resources that are now available in a way that they weren't. My mother miscarried four times. You know, she had no one. Today, women have a lot more support. And, you know, we talked about this in also when we wrote our new Mother's Day proclamation, which is this notion of extending parenting through the entire arc of conception.

And you touched on what employees could do. Many of our listeners are leaders, and even if they have had miscarriages, they might still not know what is the right way to support someone. Is there a simple right way to support someone who's going through a miscarriage?

So I think there's always simple, right ways to support anyone, which is to try to get a sense of what the person might need. Because, you know, it's. With grief also, it's like that. You know, there are some people for whom the loss of a parent who may have been severely cognitively impaired or somebody who went through extensive cancer treatments, it might come as a relief. And for others, it might be really terrible. Like, when my mother passed away, you know, I held her hand every night. It was a very primal, tactile kind of relationships. And I literally had colleagues saying, she's so much better off now. And I was like, how are you to judge who's better off and who's. Whose life is worth living? So I think in all of these situations of grief and support is trying to signal as a leader, when something is happening in your life that is difficult, you don't need a lot of details. But I think saying at team meeting, today is an off day. I had very difficult family news signals, I think, to the team that when it happens to them, they might be able to come forward. I think if you're willing to share that you've had pregnancy loss or just inquire with hr, hey, what are we doing? A friend of mine had miscarriage. What would happen if somebody in my team did? So I think as leaders, we can also reach out to HR and become more present to what are actually our rules and what are the benefits we're offering? Because many of us have been in companies for a long time, so you don't know what is actually being offered. Same thing with fertility benefits. And I think asking sometimes with loss, saying less is better than more, which is, you know, how can I support you? What is it that I can do? What would help you in this moment? But Silence is awkward. We fill in.

Absolutely. But I think saying that you are trying to say something and that you're trying to be there for them, even though you don't know exactly what to do or how to be, I think that's already a really important step. And everyone's experience of miscarriage is different. So, like you say, we can't assume what someone is going through.

And I think then you asked for a simple, effective method. I think the just reminding you, reminding ourselves that however compassionate and empathetic we wish to be, we have no idea what that person is going through. And this push towards empathy is. I got you. Oh, I know what you feel. Nobody can know what another feels. And so I think just silencing our own need to want to fix and just opening a conversation for what might be helpful to the other person. You know, actions speak louder than words, which is, I can tell you a million times, I'm so sorry your mom died. Or I can say, hey, you know, if you have something that needs proofing or doing at work or submitting, my team will do it for, you know, a couple of hours today, and then you can go home and rest. So thinking about actions, actions that help the other, rather than words that make you feel better, might be a distinction that I could draw.

That's really helpful advice. Thank you. This also touches on something else I'm interested in, which is creating an environment where people can ask for what they need.

Yeah.

Which is something you've spoken about. And it's in those transition moments where you're transitioning from a pregnant person to not being a pregnant person anymore, or you're in another intense change of your life. Actually, that's when you're unsure of your identity often, and you don't always dare to ask for what you need. What have you learned as a leader? How to make sure that you create an environment so people ask for what they need.

So we talked a little bit, I think, about the modeling. I think also about the asking. But I think the way you create an environment is by doing two things as a leader. First is you sort of educate yourself about what are these inflection points. And so we've been focused a little bit on the challenging ones, maybe. I mean, the parenting is a happy one, but also challenging one. Getting married is a giant inflection point. You know, people rush to the wedding and it's all perfect and all the flowers are beautiful. And then you wake up with the next day and, you know, the socks are in the bathroom, and you're like, ugh. So the, you know, promotions, I'm so excited I'm promoted. Nobody talks to me anymore, nobody wants to have lunch with me anymore. You know, how do I manage and manage this? So these inflection points come from happy events, quote unquote, and sometimes from not so happy events. So I think educating oneself as a manager about this is important. I think the other is trying to become self aware about your own view of these moments and how they might really bias you in your response. So, you know, menopause is now having a moment on the podcast all at once. We've discovered that, you know, women have menopause. I had a very easy one and you know, so I'm probably under indexing for paying attention to my girlfriends along these dimensions because my life experience is very, very different. So I think managers can be, can try to reflect on what are the biases about things that are hard and not hard that they're bringing to the workplace and in which way might they not be paying attention? You know, there are populations. For example, the men in IVF treatment tend to really be under supported because a lot of the attention comes to the woman. And yet men experience pregnancy loss also, of course. But rarely do we ask, how is your husband doing or how's your partner doing reaching out to them as a family. So thinking about what are the populations that are underserved by our care as managers, I think is a useful, useful discipline. And then the third super important, you know, do not make these assumptions that oh, poor thing, you got divorced or.

Absolutely.

Yeah. Not easy.

I would like to come back to the start of our conversation when we started to talk about your story as a single or solo parent. And I just wanted to ask you, as we're coming towards the end of your book of this podcast, looking back at it, what have been the really amazing things about being a solo parent and combining a big career?

Thank you for asking. So I think parenting is amazing. I think it's a journey of discovery and makes you a better human. They ask all kinds of questions, questions. It's made me a better manager, maybe a better writer, you know, maybe a better popsicle sticker. I mean, it's so. I think the act of parenting is absolutely essential. 80 billion people have done before us. It felt natural and happy. I think one advantage of how it turned out in our lives is that my daughter had one pretty much one anchor home and one anchor set of values. And I think it would have been very challenging for me to be embroiled Every week in negotiations around should she go to the dentist? Do we need braces? What should we do about the person who pushed her down the monkey bars? So in a way, I had a high level of control, which is kind of interesting for a person who claims she doesn't really like it. But it did enable me to control a lot of things in her upbringing that I felt were important for her. I think because I was a single parent, she was exposed to maybe more of my friends, more disciplines. I mentioned the medical students who lived with us at the time. She became very interested in science. So in a way, you know, a child with an intact family might have a more narrow upbringing than I think some of our children of single parents because there are more opportunities for outside contacts. They might have different parental figures in their lives. It can be very challenging. It can be financially very challenging, which it was in our situations. It can be emotionally very challenging. When I had a migraine, it was very difficult to figure out what to do with my child. But it is parenting. Single parenting is parenting. And parenting is hard and it's rewarding. And you know, one advice that I always give pregnant persons or young parents is that do what you feel is best for you because no matter what you do, your kids will hold it against you. And so I was a working parent and you know, my daughter always wanted to be adopted by a friend of mine who was a stay at home mom and she had a son who always wanted to be adopted by me because I wasn't home hovering over him. And I was the more fun parent. So, you know, we have to do what it is. We have to put the oxygen mask on first. I think as parents.

Very well said, Karin. I could keep talking to you for.

Hours, but I hope we have another opportunity.

This is where our time together comes to an end. If people want to find out more about your work, read your books. Where should they go?

Thank you for asking. So I'm on LinkedIn under my name and also on Medium, which is a blogging platform that is popular in the U.S. and please reach out. I love to meet people. I'd love to learn from anyone. And if anybody has a topic that they'd like to write about together, that would be an honor also. And thank you very nice to all the team at Leaders for the work that you do and the voices that you give. They're very, very important.

Thank you so much.

It's a pleasure.

I really appreciate you listening. Thank you so much. And I always love to hear from our listeners if you want to connect with me on LinkedIn, just go to Ferena Hefty and I'd be delighted to hear your feedback and your suggestions or just have you say hi. Likewise, if you do feel passionately about gender equality and you want to support a female led podcast, then please do leave a review and share it with a friend. Just because at the moment, podcasting is still a very, very male dominated environment. Most of the top charting podcasts are led by men. I really love all the people who've joined from the Podcast our fellowship program and if you want to do the same, then please head over to leadersclass.org Fellowship in order to get access to a community of support to help you combine an ambitious career with young children together with people who have you back. See you next weekend.