Yeah, usually like war movies are for men with the love sprinkled in so that they can bring their women on a date. This is the reverse. This was a love story with war sprinkled in so that women could go, honey, let's watch this. It's a six night event before they even get to the war.

Yes, that's exactly what it is. And that's a perfect introduction to episodes three and four of our watch with History here with Matt Callery. So Matt, thank you for succinctly speaking, summarizing. If people want to sign off now, just go ahead because Matt just summarized it in, in a, in a good sentence or two.

Yeah. How long? Well, we'll get to this. How long take to get to civil war?

I know.

Kill each other already.

I was sick when I, when we watched the second, the episode four because it was just before I was traveling and like I came down with a fever and I'm, I'm sitting there in like this like semi fever dream and I'm like, is this like all love story? Is this real lot of drama here curled up on the couch? So we're here with Matt Callery again on Talk with History podcast. We're talking about north and South. I keep having to train myself not to say the north and the South. It's just north and south. And episode three and four, if you watched episode our episode one and two episode, this is now we're kicking off in 1848. So episode three kicks off in 1848, just before the fugitive slave act. I think we get there by the end of it.

Yeah.

Not to the war just yet. So hold your horses everybody. As Matt was just mentioning to us.

Yeah. So this is this epic miniseries from 1985 that all of our grandmothers and mothers watched.

Oh yeah, you watched it. I mean, you guys watched it.

And if we were there with them while we were watching it too.

Of course, of course. And as a little kid, you don't know any better.

No.

Right. And you know, I, I'm sure there are other guys my age there who were little boys at the time who also had to watch it because that's what was on the television that the fans watched. And you might not have wanted to admit it to your mother who's, you know, watching the thing, but the bosoms that are heaving, you know, they're plentiful. Yeah. And, and you know, you don't know exactly what's going on, but you're like, well, this isn'. Intriguing, you know, and, and the very Pretty women in, in that show. And very, very pretty. And so, you know, it's, it's very easy to say, well, I, I don't care about the cheesiness of it all. And you don't even know what cheesy is at 7 or 8 years old. So there were, there were, you know. Well, as we said in the last one, like, it's very nostalgic for me.

Yeah.

Because it reminds me of being at my grandmother's house and just being a kid and not realizing, you know, the true extent of how messed up the world is. And you think everything is good and everything's going to be taken care of by mom and dad and, and I don't know, for some reason, north and south really churns up a lot of that for me.

Yeah, well, and actually episode three kicks off. Right. I said 1848, but it kicks off with kind of a pretty serious dramatic event. And that's Prime Escape. Right. So one of the, one of the enslaved at the plantation, at Ori's plantation, at Ori's plantation, he finally decides to, to up and up and escape. Now, the hazards had come down and they had visited, Right. So I think they were visiting down there at the time.

At least George was.

George, maybe it was just George.

The whole family hasn't come down yet.

Come down yet, or, But, but prime had gotten into some trouble in the past. We've been introduced to him in the past. He got trouble drinking one time and this, that and the other. So he finally decides to try and escape and he gets his butt kicked a million times.

His lady's being, you know, taken, abused, and he like, bearing the brunt of all of it. And so he decides to run away. And it happens to be he's catching the train at the exact same time that Ori and George are trying to stop for the train as well. Like, it happens to be the exact same moment at the exact same location. Like, like prime couldn't run down the tree line.

Yeah, we're not gonna hear him in the trees over the sound of the train.

Yeah, I know.

Further. Prime.

Prime really, like, you want to get caught. But I thought it was neat with the flags. I thought it was neat to, like, single like that. You wanted the train to stop for passenger with the flag. I thought that was kind of a neat concept.

Yeah. I, I, you know, I never knew how that stuff worked, that you could do that when, you know, just in the middle of the woods, there's a little flag thing and you could just wait There. And it'll. And the passenger train will stop. I mean, that doesn't seem like something made up for the show.

No, I looked it up. It doesn't. It didn't. It seemed accurate.

Yeah. So that's what really intrigues me. And for those of you who haven't watched what is this called? North and South. South, and might consider watching it after our wonderful reviews here, I. You might be surprised at, like, when they get his historical things correct. Not only events and stuff, but little details like that. You know, I. Yeah, that was. But. But that's. I have to assume that that's John Jakes. He did all that research. Novel and put that in there.

Yeah.

And it was interesting, too. So I kind of like that. Right. They show the. The brotherhood between the two. Right. The George and Ori. Right. He catches him, then he lets him go because George kind of convinces him. He says, life for a life, right? You know, you saved my life. You know, I saved his. But he keeps pushing back against George and saying, hey, you can't change how we do things here in the South. So they're constantly showing that conflict. And then we jump forward to Abolitionist Hall. And that was kind of interesting to me because I didn't. But I didn't study a lot of that. That part of history. Right. The abolitionist movement, you learn surface level stuff and when you learn high school history. But I took. I did take some notes on this particular episode. And like, they were singing at the beginning, and I didn't know if that was like, actually a thing that they did in these abolitionist meetings.

Sure.

You know, and they had Fraglis, Frederick Douglass speaking up there. I didn't know if they actually had women that were like, Kirstie Alley's character. And she got up there and gave this impassioned speech, like, very. I mean, I. I wrote down. I did write down a note. I've never seen Kirsty Alley act like that before. No, it's not Cheers. Like, this is a dramatic speech.

This is before Cheers.

This is before Cheers and before look who's Talking.

Yeah, before look who's Talking.

Her two biggest dramatic roles. No, she's great in it because she and Ashton. And we don't really see it so much in three and four, when we get into five and six. That's where Ashton really shows that she is the counterpart, the Southern Virgilia Dialy. And I can't stand either one of them.

Oh, God.

Because I just can't stand that type of person in general. The, like, brainwashed mindless zealot. I cannot stand them, and I avoid them like the plague. And. And they're both that way. And so it's interesting that, like, the families mirror each other where the bulk of the families are moderate for their region, but they have one hothead in the family that causes nothing but problems and embarrassment and shame for them. And.

I don't know.

I just. But. But as. As we get closer, we don't see this yet in these episodes. We little. Little peak of it, but as we get closer to the outbreak of war, those moderates are becoming more radicalized, fully radical. But they're. They're. They're picking sides now, and. And they are drawing a line in the sand between each other. But, you know, and really, like, one of the first ways we see it is the scene with Priam where you, you know, Ori. And, you know, Patrick Swayze was a good actor.

Yeah, he did.

I think he's the best in this, actually.

I agree. And, and, And George is a close second. But like, he, he. In this thing with Priam, you listen to the tone in his voice. Like, he. At the same time, like, almost in the same sentence, the way he says Priam's name is like a disappointed parent, but then the rest of it is like an upset brother or sister because they're probably around the same age. They grew up together. Right. You know, and. And that disappointment and, you know, and I don't know, it's very interesting. But then, you know, you got to do what you got to do. And he pulls out a gun and he's about to shoot him.

Yeah.

And George intervenes and he. He exploits their friendship in order to save Priam's life. And, and so there, I think that's where we see, like, George is starting to see. And, you know, it's very interesting because I just recorded a show with a guy named Christopher Teeter and Teeters, and he wrote a book called Practical Liberators. And it's about the Western armies of the Civil War and the officers and their thoughts on emancipation and things like that. And a lot of the quotes in the chapter that we discussed that he pulls are from guys who started off the war to preserve the Union, but it wasn't until they went down south and witnessed slavery firsthand that they started to become abolitionists.

Yes.

And I think that's. That's what's happening to George, because every time George goes down there, he sees something a little bit more, and he's just like, no, no, this isn't right. I Don't like this. And, and I think that happened to a lot of people who went down south and, and witnessed it because that, that otherwise wouldn't have cared. Or, or you're like, yeah, I know it exists, but what, you know, what, you know, there's been slaves since biblical.

Times and oh, I think that was, you know, well, just kind of referencing something in episode four. And I know we're not quite there yet, but Uncle Tom's Cabin is brought up in episode four. And was that. And you guys, maybe you guys can answer this. Was Uncle Tom's Cabin, did it have as like widespread an impact as they were letting on? Because they talked, I mean they were constantly talking about Uncle Tom's Cabin and referencing it and they gave it to Ori and Ori said, oh no, you know, not everybody in the south is like this. And so I thought that was really interesting because they, to your point, Matt, they're showing more and more of the north kind of like, I'll say, kind of becoming more aware of the atrocities of, of slavery. And that was one of the things that kind of really drove home know across these two episodes.

But also like, you know, Ori saying, you know, we're not all like this and everything. I, I keep finding that interesting too. And even Brett says to him, you know, she can't believe what she's reading in Uncle's Uncle Tom's Cabin. You know, like, that's not the way it is on our plantation. Like, what is this?

What is this?

I find that interesting. So I, I have this talk with people all the time about Gone with the Win, let's say. Right? Because people are like, it's, it's a bad representation of what the, the south was like. And I'm like, no, it's not. It's exactly what a white woman's in the South. Her, her perception would be she wouldn't care about her enslaved, she wouldn't care if Mammy had a family. She wouldn't care what was going on. She would be, she's involved in her own life. She's very self absorbed. That's perfectly what it would be. And the thing with Ori and his sister, bad things happen on their plantation. Their overseer is horrible and they almost ignore it or pretend like it's not happening. And so they almost pretend like not us. But yeah, it is going on. Why do you think prime ran away? Right, right. Like those things are going on. You act like they're not because you're oblivious to what is actually going on. Right there. And what I think is interesting about north and south is, is they have the slave quarters, like, right in the front yard of Ori's plantation house. That would never happen. I've never seen slave quarters in anyone's front yard. Even if when you go to Monticello, they're more. They. That's the one place they're more in the front, but they're way off on the side.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Any other plantation slave quarters are way in the back.

Yeah.

Like they're away from the main house. Like they're not going to want to see their everyday lifestyle. Like they don't want to. They don't want that oppression in their face. And that's why they can. They can fake this oblivious. Like, it's not like that here. We don't treat people like that here. And Ori fires the overseer the minute he becomes the head of the house. He fires him because he knows bad things have been happening on his plantation or.

I'm sorry, go ahead, finish.

No, I was just saying, like, it wasn't like he wasn't aware. It's like they just pretend like that doesn't happen.

Or if you recall with Ori, he has to wait for his father to die. He goes to his father and complain. Now this is after the Mexican War back. And he sees. Or is it after West Point? Well, whatever. He's away, wherever he is. I don't remember. He's away for a while and he comes back and the Salem Jones is the new overseer, and he's abusing semiranis sexual.

And.

And he whips the hell out of slaves. And he treats brutally, with a smile on his face, with glee, like he likes doing this. Ori does not like this at all. And he goes to his father and they have a big fight about it. He says, this isn't what we do at Mont Royal.

And.

And the dad's like, who the hell do you think you are?

It's.

It's what we're doing and, you know, it's like we got to keep him in line and blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, the minute the dad is dead and Ori's in charge, Salem Jones is fired.

Yeah.

And so Ori has a sense of what is right and what is wrong and how you should handle them. But still he owns slaves.

Yes.

And that's Virgilia's job is to. Every time she sees him, to remind him that regardless of how he treats him, he. He still owns people.

Yes. And.

And she must be fun at Thanksgiving.

Oh man, she is just, it's like, it's like nails on a chalkboard. Right. So the, the first half of episode three is this kind of dramatic, you know, enslavement, you know, kind of heavy topic. But then they, but then they, they start to stretch. Right. The soap opera stretch and the heaving bosoms and the romance and meeting up at the church and all the stuff. Right. That's just the sweet spot, as I like to call it.

And the marriage. George and Constant get married.

Oh yeah.

So that, that's right.

So Constance, I said Constant.

The Abolition Hall. That's a real location. That was a real place in Philadelphia. It did burn down. It's not there today. You can't see it. And Frederick Douglass was speaking at the time.

Okay.

I don't think the man who plays in Benson, I forget. Yeah. Benson, his hair wasn't right.

I was like, you know, Frederick Douglass is kind of like the crazy.

Like you could have like Douglas hair.

Yeah.

I, I, I think that was terrible casting. They could have gotten somebody much better. There's a guy, I, I can see his face. I can't remember his name. I want to say it's Ozzy something. But they, they could have gotten other people who would have been better than Benson. And, and that's exactly what I wrote in my note. Benson plays Frederick Douglass. Yeah.

I'm like, I, that's not his real name, but Robert Guillaume.

But.

That'S how I remember him too. And then Christy Ellie gets up and speaks and like you said, Scott, she's very impassioned. She's not wrong. She would not be wearing what she's wearing when she's speaking like that though. What I found very interesting, they love to put them in these low cut gowns as if they're at some kind of elegant event, some formal event.

Yeah. She was dressed and she's beautiful. Kir looked just amazing.

An abolitionist speaking at it. She'd be wearing a full neck like Claire Barton. Like you would be full, like because you want to be pleading your case and not have anybody. Right.

And yeah, well, I, there was a guy afterwards, I think one of the, one of like the organizers of the event who basically kind of like tries to convince her to go have a late, late dinner with her. With him. Right?

Yeah. Which we'll see more about him later.

Why is that taking her seriously?

Yeah. Real quick before we get to. Because there's a couple of important things that happen in the, in the family hazard, in the family main before the abolitionist rally. So they're they're getting married. Isabelle. We see Isabel, which is Stanley, George's brother's wife.

Yep.

We start to see what a she is.

I wrote that down. I said. I literally said George's sister in law is awful.

Yeah. She's married to number two. She's married to number two.

Is not happy about being at a Catholic wedding.

Yes, yes. The racism against Catholics.

Yes.

Well, it's not a race, but yes.

Yes. Prejudice. Prejudice against Catholics.

Billy Hazard at the wedding reception talks to Ori about West Point. He wants to go to West Point.

That's right.

Ori, who's walking around with a limp because of where les West Point led him, which was the Mexican War. Mother Hazard, she tells George and his brother Stanley that they will be equally managing Hazard Iron.

Yep. All right.

And she invites the Maines to Belvedere, which is their home to. For a long visit next summer. So 1849, that would be. And then George learns that. Oh, okay. So then they go to the abolitionist rally and George learns that Virgilia is respected amongst these people.

Yeah.

You know, it's his crazy sister in their family. But amongst the abolitionists, she is respected.

And I remember seeing that on George's face, because they're walking in and they're all saying, oh, your sister, she's amazing. And. And you kind of see the big brother pause and he's kind of like, yeah, that's exactly what he did. He's like, you're talking about my sister. You know, exactly what any big brother would. Would probably do. So that. He played that well.

Yeah. And then so she talks about slave farms and breeding farms and things like that and breeding states.

Yep.

Yeah. And some of the women there are a little offended by it, by the way she puts it and everything, but she wins over the audience in the end. And then. Yes. Senator Green tries to get jiggy with her.

Yes.

And then we'll go back down to South Carolina after that with Justin and Madeline.

Yes.

Now, Justin, he's a bad man.

He is. And he's very abusive. And they. They just show how she feels trapped. Like she doesn't try to leave or run away or.

So I did write down in my notes. Right. And I know divorce was not common, but they mentioned it at one point and maybe it was. Ori was talking to Madeline when they were at the church hooking up. Again, how common? I mean, I'm sure it was incredibly uncommon, but what did it take to get a divorce back then? Did that happen when?

I think this is episode five. So we're skipping ahead a bit here, but when did you get to episode five yet?

I haven't been there yet.

All right, well, you think Justin's bad now?

Yeah.

Wait, he gets worse.

Oh, wow.

And I'll give you one little thing. He imprisons her in her room, basically, and gets her hooked on laudanum.

So the end of four, he's imprisoning her.

End of four, he'd imprisoned her.

So in five he basically starves her. And then he gets a doctor to come saying she won't leave her room, she won't eat anything, but meanwhile he's brought her to the brink of death. The doctor prescribes a tonic for her and then it's a celery tonic, which I don't know what the hell that is, but eventually she's going to have to switch over to laudanum. And so he, he makes her into a dope addict basically. Drugged up and everything. But why did I say that? Why did I have to jump?

Divorce.

Oh, divorce. So when Ori, when you know, don't worry, Orey saves the day eventually, but it takes a while. But when Orey finally realizes what's going on and it's all come to a head with Meline, you know, he says, you're, you're. You're staying at Mount Mont Royal now with us. We're going to take care of you. You're going to divorce him for cruel, cruel treatment. I forget the terminology used, but basically there you could get a divorce. I mean, if he's beating the hell out of you, sure, yes, you could get a divorce, but you can't just get one because, oh, we fell out of love or. Yeah, yeah, you can't do it like today.

And the thing she has going for her. Okay, so yes. Could divorce happen then? Absolutely. But it would be, it would be to her financial ruin. It would be to her societal ruin. But what she has going for her, this Ori doesn't care.

Yeah.

Ori will marry her anyway and that will regain her society. It won't matter. Yeah, she'll be the brunt of gossip and people will say things. But if you are the richest plantation and you're the wife of the richest plantation, where are people going to go? To the teas and the, the, the balls and stuff. They're going to go there and they're still going to talk about you, but you're still going to be in society. And so, and I mean, no one loves a scandal like the south too. So really that's A great, that's a great point. They would probably be so popular. Everyone would go to all of them.

Things just to see them.

So speaking of society and scandals and all that. So we have the cousin, right. Or's cousin that has come into the picture. Charles.

Charles, yes.

He's kind of like, I guess like the redneck, redneck cousin that they, they introduced him.

He's orphan.

I wrote down good old fashioned western bar fight. So I guess he gets into, he gets into a bar fight, ends up like having to learn how to duel and all this stuff. So that was kind of, kind of interesting, them bringing him in. And so I don't know if that was written into the books that way. So that George Hazard's younger brother had someone else to go through West Point with. Right. Because they ended up going through West Point. Right. And they were kind of the, the next generation of, you know, Hazards and Mains that were going through West Point. But I kind of enjoyed his character once he kind of came around and, and got settled into the, the or main, you know, sphere.

I really like the duel scene because. Yeah, you're right. Like he felt like the redheaded stepchild in the Main family and had kind of a resentment for them and Ori wasn't too fond of him. Now he has to duel because he sleeps with another man's wife and then punches the other man when they're found.

Yeah.

So the other man's stuttering. Second.

Yes.

Comes to Mont Royal and says to Ori that we got a duel. Your cousin and, and always like, duels are illegal. He's like, we don't care.

Yeah, yeah.

And, and so Ori ends up being his cousin. Second Charles ii. And he teaches him how to duel and everything like that. And they, they get to the point where they duel and the other guys is Papa Sass drinking champagne and, and everything and fires a shot in his arm. Nicks him in the arm. Now first of all, this is the thing that bothers me about Hollywood with, with arm wounds.

Yeah.

Okay, so Charles has got the gun extended. He gets shot like here. The gun stays out, his arm stays out.

That I was impressed. I thought that was pretty impressive, actually. Didn't even budge.

Didn't flinch. Right arm stays out. And then he eventually, I think, fires the shot up in the air while the other guy. But, but first he's holding it out there while the other guy like falls to his knees and starts to cower like a woman.

Yeah.

Ladies.

No, it's okay.

I wanted to say another word, but I want to keep it clean. And, and anyway, so he. Charles fires a shot in the air, lets the man live. The man's family who's watching applaud Charles.

So I, I noted that. And. And he, I wrote down the country boy didn't know why they were applauding.

Yes, yes.

And so I, that is just kind of a stark moment. It was so interesting. That whole duel scene was very interesting. Right. Because obviously we don't do that nowadays. And so when you see them kind of going through the motions and, you know, each second is going out there and loading the gun and checking the weapons and doing all the things, I just thought that was kind of. Again, right. The guy and me, I was like, okay, we got away from the soap opera. Now we're getting a little bit of action here. Is he going to get shot or not? And then, you know, and so we get a little. We get a little bit of that towards the end of episode three.

Well, I think it shows how much Ori is centered on tradition.

Yeah.

And how much tradition and being a gentleman is so ingrained in his upbringing in the South. Right. Like, he doesn't care for Charles.

He.

He's kind of like not the black. He's the black sheep of the family. But once he's been pulled into a duel and the name, right, the. The main name is now being pulled into this duel. Now he's taken him under his wing and teaches him how to shoot. He becomes his second. He shows you what seconds do, how they examine the pistols. They pick the pistols, Right. And then I was telling Scott, like, the thing about a duel is the seconds will try to work it out first. If they can't, they're gonna duel. They have a doctor there. The doctor will turn around. So he doesn't see what happens in the duel, but he's there to treat somebody. And most times men did throw away their shots because that would be the end of it. It was like you defended yourself. And when he gets shot and he doesn't back down, but he doesn't shoot him either. He gives away. I think Ori feels like, oh, my gosh, this is my cousin. And now he built this real kinship for him. And now he wants to take care of him now he wants to raise him. Right. And yeah, you see this, how much this tradition means to Ori.

Well, and also, don't forget, because we skipped ahead here. Ori's dad dies.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yes. Or is the head of the family.

Is now the head of the family. In fact, this Whole thing starts after he fires Salem Jones. Salem Jones goes to the bar and gets in the bar fight with Charles. And then Ori comes and breaks it up. And then the next morning finds out that Ori went and slept with a married woman. And this whole started. Yeah, so. Or is the head of the family now, so he has to take Charles under his wing even more because this kid's, like you said, carrying the name. Right. But yeah, you're right. Once he sees the manliness of Charles's decision in sparing the life. Right. What's that whole thing in. In Schindler's List when Schindler says to. What's his name? Goth. Goth Girth. Yeah, yeah. Ralph Fine's character.

Yeah, yeah.

He says, you know, real power isn't in being able to kill someone. It's being a. Pardon someone who should be killed. And. And so. And that's what we see here, right? He's. He's pardoning him when he had every right to take his life or at least hurt him pretty bad. So now also, the other thing that we missed before Ori's dad dies. Big explosion at Hazard Iron.

That's right, because they circumvented those safety precautions.

Yeah.

Stanley's in charge of the money. Okay. Equal partners. But Stanley's in charge of the money, I think. Is he the older brother? Is that why.

I think he's technically the. I think he's the older brother.

Well, that. That really things up because George ordered reinforcing bands that would have prevented this. And now and then. And Stanley's like, oh, well, it was too expensive. He's like, well, now we got to pay money to the families of these people. And he's like, so it would have been cheaper, you know, to do this and whatever and blah, blah, blah. So big problem there is that.

Is that when the mom comes in, like, not there, not long after, and she kind of arrangement.

Yes.

Yeah, she changed. She get. She basically says, hey, I don't remember his brother Stanley number two. I just think of his number two from Star Trek. Hey, you're no longer in charge of the money, George. Now you're in charge of the money because we got to do things right.

And Stanley's wife Isabel is really pissed. All she wants is that Hazard money.

Yeah.

And she calls Constance that Irish slut of his.

I know.

She's the worst.

She is the worst.

Good grief.

I'd rather have an Irish slut than a Like you.

That's so true, man.

I was just say. I mean, they're more fun, let's be honest.

But I will say their hair is on point. Whoever did the woman's hair, their women's hair looks great for the. For period, for timepiece, for the way it should look. Men's hair looks horrible.

Wait a sec. I thought all the hairstyles were 1980s, not 1860s.

Well, I would say the bangs are a little too much. Right. A lot of the women have these bangs and stuff, but the axe with the curls and they're wearing the, like, the doilies and all of that. That's well researched.

Like, they did a really good mix of 1980s and 1860s.

The men look horrible. They're all over the place. Mullets, short hair.

You can't. You can't blame them. Yeah. You can't blame the producers for letting Patrick Swayze be Patrick Swayze. Let's be real. No.

If Patrick Swayze had a proper Southern haircut at that time for the 1860s, I don't know if it would have gone over so well.

It wouldn't have been the same.

No, it wouldn't have. I think.

Although I did. I did note, right. Every now and then they try to. I could tell they're trying to give the opportunity to show. Get. Show Patrick Swayze, like, and just how fit he is. Right. He has that dancer's build. Right. Because he was a dancer. And so I actually wrote that down when they were training for the. For the duel, I wrote down. I was like, patrick Swayze looks ready to dance.

Looks like he's. He's. He's auditioning while filming north and South. He's auditioning for the role of Robin Hood in another movie.

Yeah.

I don't know what that shirt is.

The cape and all that stuff.

Well, the. Not even the cape during that scene. The duels, when they're out on the dock, he's wearing this weird shirt that looks like a Robin Hood type of shirt that, like, whatever the hell it's supposed to be. Yeah, I. The 80s were a. Interesting time.

Yeah, they were.

That was super fun. So. So towards the end of episode three, right, We've. We've had all this stuff going on. So lots happened in episode three and then moving on. What's that?

James Huntoon.

James Huntoon. Who's it.

Who's the guy that comes courting for Ashton? He comes to Oriental. Yeah. Okay. Because it's gonna really. In episode five, he's really gonna.

Yes.

So he comes to ask permission from Ori to court his sister.

And I love Ori's reaction.

Why? Why?

And he didn't like outright question him and warn him away, but just the look like Patrick Swayze did such a good job. The look on his face again, it's like that older brother looking at someone who says, like, I want to court your sister. And. And you could tell he's just smirking, like trying not to, like, try not to warn him away. But you tell all over his aura. He's like, is this guy serious? Like, I cannot believe he's talking about this devil of a sister that I have.

Well, he, he get, you know, eventually they get to the end because. Or gets called away. Yeah. James says, well, you know, do I have your blessing? And. And he says, yes, sir, and Godspeed. You're gonna need it.

Yeah.

So good.

Yeah, but that, but so that's when the representative for Mr. Smith comes about the duel.

Yes.

Right.

And this is where you get to see the two sisters are taking complete opposites in their Personas of how they feel.

Black haired demon, you know.

Yeah.

She's trying to teach her the blonde haired angel. I mean, they play it right down the cartoon path.

There we're starting the seeds of. Since this is for Valentine's Day, Brett wants Billy, but Billy falls for Billy Hazard. Billy falls for Ashton's bullshit. Charles pushes Billy to go to Brett.

Right.

No, no, no. You want Brett.

Yeah.

Charles comforts Brett when Billy follows Ashton. And this, I believe, is what. When the. When the hazards.

They're visiting the hazards because.

Oh, they're up.

She puts those berries in her mouth.

They're up north and kisses.

That's right. Oh, yeah. Can we, can we? I know we talked about this on the last one, but the kissing doesn't improve at all.

No.

Their technique is so disgusting. It's like they want us to think tongue is involved, but tongue is obviously not involved. And it's this weird. Like I'm not even going to do it because God knows what anybody will. One of my listeners, Grant, will probably take it and do some AI but like, it is. It is terrible. And that scene with the berries, like you want to barf. I mean, I'm really turning into an old man because sex in. In shows and T. TV and movies now just annoys me.

But he rebuffs her, right? She kind of throws herself at him with this and he kind of shows himself to be the upright kind of, you know, stand, stand up man. And then she gets pissed, right? And then essentially, you know, storms off and, you know, she makes. She's gonna show him, you Know when she gets to West Point in the next next couple years. So we'll make him pay for that over the coming years.

Yeah. And then another thing. Madeline finds Justin. She goes to the church.

Yes.

Yeah.

Finds Justin boinking one of his slaves.

That's right.

The only place in town where people.

That's it. A holy place. Everybody goes to fill holes. So Happy Valentine's Day that you guys are a little more adult on this show. Right. So she finds it, and then he turns around and beats her and whips her and calls her. What a spying slut.

Yeah.

And then he whips her with his buggy whip, I guess is right.

Yeah.

Like, beats her unconscious. Yes. And then he's the one doing the bad stuff.

Right. And apparently she was going to meet Ori, so technically, I guess Justin wasn't wrong in calling her a slut.

Yeah. I mean, if he knew that was kind of the smooching spot, you know, maybe he knew what she was up to.

But I love how. I love how Patrick Swayze comes and then he saves her. And then he's like, well, he'll never come back here again, so we can always hook up here. And I'd be like, that's what you think? I think he's gonna come back here tomorrow.

Exactly. Exactly. Can we just build a tree house out in the woods?

You think he's never gonna come back here again? Why? It's like so many other locations around.

Clearly he doesn't care that she caught him cheating with a slave. Right. Like it's his right. Is what he thinks. Right. Like, so he doesn't care. So he'll go there all the time. I don't know why he needs to sneak off with her, though, with this slave. Like, why.

Sure.

Just do that. Like that. You know, they did that at the plantation.

Yeah.

Especially with his Persona. He would just. It would be just part of what he believes is part of his is right. He's right. Yeah.

Yeah.

Now, up north, Constance wants George to put Belvedere on the Underground Railroad.

Yes.

Yes.

And George is like, I don't know, because as you're talking about the Fugitive Slave act before. So I guess by this point I missed that part in the show, but I guess by this point it has been enacted or made into law.

It's about 1851. So that's when it comes out.

Right.

So this is about the time because they remember the year later, they go up and visit. That's 1849. So they don't really give you the dates here. But if you know the Fugitive slave Act is 1850. 1851. So. Yeah, so George sees it firsthand. Yeah, right. He sees an enslaved person running away with all the. What, they have the welt on his back or something and it's showing them. Right. And so he sees it and then he's like, yes, I'll help. I want to be a part of.

It, you're safe here, etc. But he swears Constance to secrecy over that, though. Some trouble, you know. Okay. By the way, a little note here. I'm obsessed with oil lamps and lanterns. I don't know if I told you this. They have some pretty great lanterns in this series, although I do not know if all of them would have been than in existence in the 1850s. But still very, very nice for you oil lantern people out there.

Nice. And.

Oh, oh. So then now. Yeah, you're right. They're setting up for the next episode because they're going to go to Mont Royal.

Yes.

Yep. George goes to visit Roy with his family.

When the hat. When the mains were up at the Hazards house, there was that big scene with Virgilia and Ori. Now there's two big blow ups that they have and I think both of them take place up there at Belvedere. And I can't remember which one this one is. Is it?

So in, in episode four, because I haven't made it to episode five, they do end up. You do end up getting the Hazards that visit down south. So they'll show that. That's later in episode four.

But in episode three, when they're up north, Virgil. Virgilia says some very not nice things at the table. And she's basically kicked out of dinner.

Yeah, she's kicked out of dinner.

She says she'll stay in her room for the rest of the time and then when she hears that they've been invited to the south, she wants to go.

She wants to go. That's right.

And so she has to kind of make amends with her brother and saying that she'll be very good, she'll be on her best behavior because she. She's been talking so much about abolition and she's never seen it.

Yeah.

Yeah, okay, so that's a good point. So you think she wants to go because she wants to see it firsthand.

Yes.

Okay, well, you know what then? Now I appreciate her a little bit more because she. I'm. I would be the same way if I'm going to be an activist about something, which frankly I'm too lazy. But if I were. I would want to see it firsthand. I can never take somebody else's word for it because everybody has an agenda. So I need to know my own eyes, you know, what is going on down South. Now, of course, going to one plantation isn't going to give me a proper idea, but whatever, it's at least an idea. So she begs George. He makes a promise to behave. She promises to behave. She says, I'll swear on the Bible. And he goes, okay, you can come. And then they start to part ways. And he goes, wait a second. She goes, what? He goes, the Bible?

Yeah.

That's great for her word, right?

Yeah, yeah.

The Bible doesn't matter to her because as we'll see later.

Yep. So that's episode four is going to open 1954.

Yes. I think they're visiting down south, and.

They'Re visiting the south so that they've. She's made that promise. And now the Hazard family is going to the main plantation at point.

And I think you get the impression, right, they've. So they've had some parties and she's been good, right? For. Jillia's been good, but then I think.

She'S had some balls, right? And so she's been the belle of the. Some of the balls, right? People dancing with her and stuff.

Men are showing interest, right? Young single lady. And then she.

She wanders.

Wanders off. She starts walking amongst the enslaved quarters, right? So she starts looking around, which most likely she would never do, right? And then I think eventually she starts. She goes on a ride with. It's Forrest Whitaker's character. I don't know his. His name. He's one of the.

That's coffee.

Yeah.

So what happens is. Which would never happen. I. I tried to. Like, she's walking among the slave quarters, which, again, are Right outside the front door of this plantation. Would not be there. You have a woman walking in her evening ball gown, unaccompanied. That's not something women would do back then. And they're just hanging out. They. They see her and they just kind of hang out. I say they would see her and run in their houses. They would run in their houses. They'd be afraid to be alone with her. They'd be afraid to be caught alone with her. And so when she starts talking to the. The coachman.

Yeah.

And she's just. I'm like, she has no clue how much danger she's putting his life in being alone with him.

That's a great point.

And she's an abolitionist. She's they would kill him just for talking to her alone.

I think that I just. I thought the whole premise of her just walking through there was stupid from the get go and everything after that I was like, I can't buy this because this never happened. Right. Yeah, you're right. Like for her of all people to be the one to go wandering in there shows. Well, I guess it shows that, You know, the people I know who are like her are really ironically the most ignorant people of the thing that they're all in a huff about. Yeah, right.

Yeah. Like, yes, she may not. She just wouldn't know not to do that maybe.

And it is, after all, for her, I guess, what we would call today a fact finding mission.

Right.

So she's down there trying to learn the. The ways of things and how everything goes. So maybe she. Maybe she's ignorant of the fact that a woman wouldn't do that.

But.

Yeah, but she must know that. That a slave would not be treated well if it fat. If people found out that he was talking to a white woman alone. Company. But this is important though. We. This is an important scene because Brady.

Well, she. She meets the guy who introduces her to all of the facts as. As I'll say.

Oh, yeah, she's talking to him and then goes on the ride with Forest Whitaker. So then she goes morning on a ride with Forest Whitaker alone. And he. He is apprehensive.

Yeah.

So you can tell he's already like, we should not be just the two of us. You should have someone with you.

I.

That's kind of. Unless he was her personal enslaved. Oh, that would not happen. You wouldn't just have a black man riding with a white woman who's coming to visit.

Like, would he have been. Would it have been possible that the mains would have assigned him as like a valet to hit their guests?

Maybe. But another woman would have went with her.

It would have been a woman.

Yeah. Another sister would have went with her. Right. As a good host. They would have said, we're coming to. And our. Our enslaved man will come with us.

Oh, oh, a white woman, you're saying?

Yes. Oh, yeah. They want to let her go by herself like that.

I guess I brush up on Southern slave etiquette of the.

Yeah, well, it just. It's just so much of this fear of being alone and fear on both sides. Right. Because they're making African American. They're making African Americans out to be savage. And then. Right, and then the African American would want to be alone with her either.

Yeah.

Because he would be like, this puts my life in danger. Anybody could say anything.

Are you saying that in north and south they're making the African Americans out to be savage?

No, no, that's how the.

Oh, oh.

That's how this played out from the South. That's why. Right. That's what you read in the papers and stuff. And so.

Yeah, well. And I think Jen, when we were watching this, you know, this was the episode I watched in kind of my fever haze. But yes, I was so sick. But you did. I do remember you pointing out that she is in. Matt, you kind of mentioned this earlier out of her own ignorance. She's using her position of power.

Yeah.

Basically say, I don't care what you. You're telling me we're going to do what I want to do anyways. Right. She's going for this long ride away from the house. Cuffy keeps trying to tell her that they should turn back. Starts raining, right. And then they come upon the coachman because the. The wheel, one of the wheels had broken. And so she comes upon, you know, the coachman who's there dripping wet, looking all muscular. Right. And soap opera, you know, to the T. And then she starts kind of engaging conversation with. With the coachman. And again, Cuffy's still showing, like, hey, we should turn back or all this stuff. And she just basically keeps doing what she wants to do, regardless of what they're. They're trying to tell her. And I remember you talking, you know, telling me that.

Well, and I think too, when she propositions him.

Grady.

Great. Yeah.

By the way, she propositions him with her eyes, he goes, you wanna. I forget what he said.

Yeah, yeah.

He's very blunt about it.

You want to lay with me. Yeah, that's right.

And she.

I just wrote here, Grady senses that she wants to never go back.

Yes. And.

Oh, man.

And I. I would said to Scott in that moment, Grady, even if he loves her and wants her too, he must know now my life is in danger forever. Like, no matter what, no matter if it's consensual or not. If they're caught in any compromising position, he is dead.

Dead.

As consensual.

Yeah.

For that.

That's a great point.

There's no such thing.

Yeah. He's dead. He doesn't matter. Like, so he must. He must know that. He must be measuring that in his mind. Like it's. I'm dead. If I'm caught in any. I'm dead. Like they won't even. It's not. It's Not a whipping. They're gonna kill me.

Yeah, kill me. Right. No, but here's the thing, and I think this is the point again. Soap opera love conquers all, Right?

And.

And he. There. There's an immediate attraction between the two of them. And he. Let's see. Grady takes her to funky town, which is in an old barn.

Yes. They didn't go to the church.

No. Very romantic and hygienic. And. And apparently they spend the night there and George and Ori rescue her in the morning.

Yeah. No one comes out looking for her at night, which is.

Right, right, exactly.

Yeah.

And then. Oh, but then that dinner scene afterwards.

Yeah.

She meets him in there. He runs away. So she helps him run away.

She. She helps him run away. She gives him money. She kind of gives him the. Hey, here's some tips, you know, here's some addresses. Trains going here, this, that. And the other.

And the other sister, Ashton catches them.

Oh, that's right.

She hears them in the cotton mill.

Francesca.

The cotton docks.

Yes, she catches them. She hears them. So then she brings it up at dinner.

That's right.

Oh, yes.

Remember, she's like those two sisters.

She's a little snake. I really love. So I love that dynamic of those two going at it at the table. I heard something, right. Because she's like, it takes one to. No one. She was probably meeting some guy out there. Yeah, I think she was meeting some guy out there.

She was probably. And it wasn't the guy she was dating.

Yeah, no.

Yeah, yeah. So. Right. And then. Then Huntoon busts in because it's his property and he.

She's helped him run away. And so then Ori is like, this is a big deal. This is a man's property. He has a right to go after it. And. And that's when the families are like, now we have to leave.

This is the case because Huntoon had busted in because his coachman had ran off. Right, Right. And everybody. And I think Ori even says he's like, yeah, we heard that. That he had. He had run. He had run away or something like that. And so he accuses the sister, you know, for Julia. And then the hazards in Ori Main are like, you can't do that. Like, you can't be accusing. Right? And Kirsty Alley's just letting the tension build. She's just letting the tension build. She's sitting there stewing it. Right. She's like a pig in mud with all this drama.

And the two brothers are like, oh, my God.

Two brothers are Trying to. Trying to defend her honor. And then finally she's like, well, he deserves an answer. He says a couple times. And then finally she says that she. She helped him run away. And you see George, just how angry he is, and not that it happened, but at his sister who promised to be good. And, like, she did all this, like, and is just destroying relationships by what she's done. And you just. And again, I was so impressed by the acting in this. Like, they. They did a really good job. I thought it was going to be kind of cheesy. But all the characters, you love them or you hate them, and like, they're. They're carrying it right. Right there with you. And. And so just that the tension in that dinner scene was it. I mean, like I said, it cut through my fever dream and it stuck with me, and it was just so, so good. And I think they ended up kind of leaving shortly. Shortly after that.

Yeah. They have to.

Yeah.

Because.

Yeah.

Virgilia broke the law.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because that's the thing.

She.

Grady has a little rowboat and he rose up and she gives him an address in Philadelphia.

Yep. Like a safe house.

Yeah. And she'll obviously meet him up there later, but I'm sure that wasn't. I would have liked to. That's a movie I'd like to see is Grady's trip from South Carolina up to that safe house in Philadelphia. How the hell did you do that back then? Right. Like, he's part of an underground railroad network down there.

Yeah.

Where she has connections there that can get him connecting the dots up to Philadelphia.

So.

But of course, it's a television movie. We have to just suspend disbelief and not ask these questions.

I know. We just believe he made it up there on his own, no other help.

Yeah. So. And then is this when. Because I remember where that storyline goes, but I think we go to West Point after this.

So the two boys are graduating. Charles and Billy graduate West Point. The two sisters are there. Ori's sisters.

Families are all visiting.

They're all visiting. They're celebrating their graduation. I think this is before the dinner scene because they're pretty amiable with each other. But this is where. What's her. Is. What's her name? Ashton. What's the bad sister? Ashton is going to get back at Billy by sleeping with as many West Point boys as she can.

Yeah. And, you know, I remember the first time I saw this a couple years ago.

I don't remember. See, as a kid, I didn't. I didn't get this at all.

What are all the buttons?

What does that mean?

Diving across the room to grab the remote and turn it off.

Right over my head. I had no idea what's happening.

Carson got on. What's Carson got on? But, like, so I remember watching it during COVID Yeah. And I was like, wait a second. Did. I just.

Did.

She was this whole section. Because really, the whole crux of the West Point scenes are that cadets ran a train.

Yeah.

Ashton. And she came out with a big bag full of buttons.

Yeah. And that was like their thing. Like, each one would give her a button and she came out with all these buttons. But she was only interested in they. If they were friends with Billy.

Billy. So they could tell him.

Oh, my gosh, really upset. And then her cousin Charles comes in. He's looking for her, and she acts like she was taken advantage of. And he's like, you.

He's like, I know. I know who. I know who you are.

Yeah. But we know the one thing that we didn't mention about character, Charles, is that there's some scene earlier. I can't remember if it's episode three or four. No, it's. It's the scene when Huntoon comes to talk to Ori to ask if he can court Ashton. Ashton and Brett are upstairs talking girl talk. I don't know what it is, but I usually. And. And then you hear clippity clappity clippity clop. She looks out the window, and here comes cousin Charles and there's a little conversation about how Ashton has a thing for cousin Charles.

Yeah.

Your cousin.

I know.

Okay.

But that was kind of.

I know it was. But this is the 1980s. They. They didn't even. Like. It was weird in the 1980s.

Yeah.

So, like, they didn't play it, like, ironically or, like, with any sense of. Like, that's gross for 80s sensibilities. Like, it was just the. The boy down the street.

Yep.

That was a little weird.

It was. But that's now part of that. Obviously she was doing that to get back at Billy because Billy was with her. S. Now recording her sister.

What a terrible sister. She doesn't want her sister to be happy.

Yeah.

Wait until you get off. Get off. Sorry, I was just. Wait till you get to. I think it's episode six. You'll see.

Yeah.

Where it goes with Ashton. But, you know, another thing. And I feel bad. I always do this because I. I get you're trying to move it along, but I have to pull you back.

Sure.

Yeah. Yeah.

Or West Point in Philadelphia. We do see Grady up in Philadelphia.

Oh, yes, I have that note here.

Oh, yes.

And he's. He is approached by the Pennsylvania Anti Slavery Society to speak about slavery, but asks him and Virgilia not to call for violence in the South. And this, I think is very important because we did. We recorded a show that we called Tavern Talks, and we did it at a local tavern and we talked about John Brown and John Brown's raid. And one of the things that we were. That I was trying to establish, but a lot of the people, we had a couple of Virgilias in the audience and a few of them did not want to. They couldn't grasp nuance. And so, and, and so what I was trying to do was with. With our guest historian. I was trying to get a sense of just how much of the population was abolitionist number one. And number two, of those people in the society of the abolitionists in society, how many of them believe that violence was the way to go in the 1850s.

Yeah.

And the answer, I believe the answer that she gave US was 2% of the population of the 1850s was abolitionist. And if you go by any other extremist group, even today, it's always a small sliver of the overall of the whole that is violent and believes that violence is the answer. And so I shouldn't even say small sliver because they've done some recent studies and there's people in this country now that like 45% of them think that violence is okay. So that's almost half. And that's not good. But. Or maybe it was 37 point I'm trying to make is abolitionists did not think that violence was the way to abolish slavery, at least not at first. Right. I think, and I think most movements have to go that way. Where you have to.

You.

You must start with trying to appeal to the better angels of the other person. Right. Before you go to violence. Violence is always a last resort when there is no negotiating. And I think that's the point of the Civil War, is that we had no more negotiation left. No one wanted to. So you had to resort to that. But anyway, I thought that was interesting.

Yeah.

Virgilia and Grady are living as a married couple in poverty.

In poverty.

And then that's the other. I mean, they just kind of dropped that on you.

Yeah.

Like she says, my husband. And you're like, wait, what did she just say that my husband.

Yes. Right. Grady lost his job at the docks.

Yep.

And I forget who says this. I wrote it as a quote. But somebody Says hundreds of men out of work right now. So I'm guessing, you know, the economy is not good at this time. And, and the way they look at it or is that they're married and at war with the rest of them outside these walls. Walls. So I think that's Virginia that said that.

Yeah.

And she talks about abolitionists who believe in violence and punishment of the South. And later on we'll see why she's. Or what this way of thinking ends up bringing her where it ends up bringing her.

You have to understand everybody at the time is surviving. This is very much a survival time. America's being built. People are working their butts off. And so they don't have really time to look up and go what's going on down in the south because they're just trying to put food on their table. That's what Grady and Virginia are kind of showing you. Like they. People in the north can't even afford to put food on their table. So they're not really paying attention. What they're more concerned about is these jobs of the south. Like all of the labor of the south that's free, that all of that, all those products come to the north. They're all processed in the north, but there's no jobs for those people in the north to do that stuff in the South. So you're getting these problems. 1954 is a great time for the Kansas, Nebraska. Sorry, I wrote 1954. I meant to have my 1854. That's a Kansas Nebraska Compromise. Right. Where the two new states are coming on board and they're like, are they going to be slave states? Are they going to be non slave states because of the labor? Right. Northerners need jobs. Southerners want the free labor. And so people are fighting about this. And I will also say it's a very violent time. People don't realize how much violence was just a part of your everyday lifestyle there. They kind of allude to it with Ori getting beat up, just getting on the train. Right. Violence was just a part of your life. Like so you think people getting violent in the, in the south, it's to the extreme of people taking up arms and killing each other. It was not violence of just hitting or fighting. That was an everyday thing. People handled their problems with slaps. People handled their problems with punches. Like that was a normal thing. What's happening at that stag bar, the Stag tavern, where the fight. That was a normal day for the barkeeper. Right.

Like, right, right.

That's how people People handled their stuff. It was a very violent time then. So when you say small amount of people were ready to get violent, it's because. Small amount of people were ready to go to war about this because, see.

They could see further down the road than everybody else. Everybody else needed to be led down that road. The. The John Brown types, they. They could see where this. Because they knew what they were dealing with. They knew that they couldn't. Not even negotiate. They couldn't reason with the slave holding south.

Yep.

Yep.

And so the only way, you know, it's like if you're locked in a room and you can't reason with the lock, you have to bust down the door.

Yep.

You've got to destroy the door entirely. And so that's kind of like where they're at. But you know, those people that. That type of thinking. The one. The problem that people that embody that have throughout history is their timing is awful.

Yeah. They.

They're. They're. They jump the gun too quickly, and they need to wait. A good example of that is. What's his face? The Unabomber. Okay. I was just talking about this with a professor at the college the other day. If you read his manifesto, it's stuff that everybody is saying right now about technology.

Wow.

And Democrat, Republican, left, right. Black, white, doesn't matter. All say this about how technology is ruining our society and it's this and that. We're slaves to it and yada, yada, yada. What was his problem? His problem was he blew people up who had nothing to do with it. And so. So we. So he discredits his whole argument. But 30 years later, he's kind of proven to be somewhat right. Like he was seeing things ahead of time. Like Brown was seeing things ahead of time.

Yeah.

But good luck trying to equate John Brown with the Unabomber.

Yeah.

Yes.

That's not the point I'm trying to make.

The point.

Trying to make is some people see things very clearly while the rest of us have our heads. The clouds.

Yeah.

And they sound crazy until the time is right.

That's true. And their means of going about it as well. Yeah, right.

Yeah. Yeah. Raiding Harper's Ferry in order to arm slaves so that they could defend themselves as they go north. Not going to go over too well. Same as blowing up people with mail bombs comes. Not gonna go over too well.

Not gonna go too well. And so we get. We get some other things happening too at the end of this. We get Madeline finds out her grandmother was a slave.

Yes.

Right, yeah.

Her father dies, he's like, let me, let me tell you the secret. Your grandmother was a slave. And she's like, what?

And she's like, her grandmother or great grandmother?

It was her great grandmother. Her great grandmother, yeah, her great grandmother was a slave. And she goes, but, but, but, but Papa, what about blah, blah, blah? And he goes, yeah, but this is gonna, this is important information because this is going to come in later on.

Yeah, well, and then she, she ends up telling Ori at one point. Right. Because she hadn't told anybody but her.

That first they have afternoon delight.

Well, yeah, yeah. It was like I was going to lead in with. It was the big one, the pillow talk. Right, that, that was the pillow talk.

Their legs are intertwined in ways that I was like, how is that happening?

But yes, very, very clever ways to block.

Yes.

Areas.

There was, there was, there was a note that I had put in here. I was like, too bad this wasn't hbo. Right. Because would have seen the rest of it.

Oh yeah, you would have seen a lot. They have their aftering delight and then she tells him, she tells him away.

And he's totally fine with it.

Yeah, well, that's the thing. And so is that when she agrees.

To run, run away with him?

Yes, yes.

Was it then Ori insists that they run off together three days from now?

Yes.

And then happened. But so I, I, I, I forget where I had heard this before, but I knew that they, well, yeah, I knew that they had different, they had.

Terms.

For, for black people based on how much white they had in them. And I couldn't remember. Well, I didn't, I didn't know exactly what, I knew there were a bunch of different terms, but I never knew what they meant or what the term was. So for people who are interested in this part of history, for her. So she had one black great grandparent, that means she had seven white great grandparents.

Yeah.

That would mean that she was what's called an octoroon.

Yep.

Now where the fuck do you come up with these names? Like, I get it, Oct, meaning eight. Like, it's just, it is so vile. It is by our standards today. Right. And, and our government still, you know, classifies people by race and everything like that. And so it's not much different, but like, it is different, but it isn't much different. Like that they would come like, who gives a shit?

It was those MIS segregation laws. Right. Because you couldn't have a drop of black blood in your body, you'd be considered black.

Yeah, right.

You couldn't marry a white person.

Oh, wow.

Right.

And it's very interesting because it's very similar to the Nuremberg Laws later in the 20th century with. With the percentage of Jewish blood that you have in you. So it's just. It's just such an awful. And for all the problems our society has today, I'm really glad these aren't one of them because I wouldn't. I wouldn't be very comfortable around this. You know what I mean?

Well, and she even says, like, oh, you know, if my husband finds out, like, he would kill me and all this stuff. And then you kind of start feeling for her, right? So she's laying there with Ori in the smooching spot, right? In the. In the rundown church. They say, let's run away together in three days. We'll meet back here. She goes home. And then I think it's. Why can I never remember her name, Mom?

Sally.

Oh, Ashton. Ashton comes to her. And we had talked about the train that was run on Ashton at West Point. Well, one of those West Point, one of those West Pointers got her pregnant. She doesn't know which one.

One of those got into the station. Yeah.

And she's not married yet to come. She probably could have pawned that off.

Yeah.

A lot in the south because she's.

She's said all through, she's like, I'm gonna marry this guy because he's gonna have big political power. Right. And she's very clearly stated it. But she. But she's also clearly stated, why would I stop fooling around with all the guys that I can. Like, wouldn't they be disappointed if I wasn't loving on all of them? Like, she basically said something like that.

That she knows what her job.

So she had come to Meline, right? So she had left her family home, plantation. She couldn't do it there, so she came to Meline. Meline had a good reputation for helping people out and said. Essentially kind of said, like, I'm pregnant. I. I need some help, right.

I'm not married.

I'm not married. And they.

She does it for Ori, she doesn't do it for her.

So Matt, Madeline decides to help her.

Takes her to, like, a hoodoo voodoo lady, which is again, getting into this religion of the south, the African American religions of the South. A swamp lady, right? Some lady who's living out and takes her there.

Pretty cool house. The only thing I thought was I couldn't live there because of all the snakes.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

That's what you within the bayou? That's always what it's like.

Yeah, but I assume, like, she gave her something to take. Right. That would cause some root or. Some root or something. Some. Some mini sort of poison that would cause Valer something.

I don't know.

Yeah. And helps her. But then she's gone for so long that when she gets back home, her husband starts questioning her and she again protects Ori and protects the sister. And she claims she was shopping. Her. Her husband said, I went to that same place, Charleston. And she said, I had lunch here. And he goes, I was there from 11 to 3. I said, well, I went at 10:30. Like, I would have been.

Yeah. Just kept lying.

I'm like, okay. So you just admitted you weren't there till 11. So I was there at 10:30.

Yeah.

Fast enough. She ain't good.

That's when he locks her in the room. Like, as you mentioned kind of earlier on, he. He locks her in the room and doesn't let her out.

Yeah. Well. And then a couple scenes later, Mom, Sally.

Yes. Tries to help her.

Help her.

And Justin basically throws her down the stairs and kills her killer.

Kills her. Yeah.

And I believe she was free, though. She wasn't. She was.

Yes.

Right.

Looked like a free woman.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I think that ends the episode, doesn't it?

It does, but we didn't talk about that. The Hazard and Maine did start a textile mill.

So I was going to mention that. They do show that, which I thought was really cool. I always kind of appreciate when these two, you know, best friends, brothers, you know, for all in, you know, sense of the word, keep showing that they're continuing. They're still trying. They're still trying. Right. They're. They're constantly. They're using their friendship to kind of continue to anchor and kind of pull themselves back together. So they do show that it said Hazard in Maine. Right. Which is right on the textile, which is really cool.

They're trying to see the best of each other.

They are. And the war isn't on yet.

Nope.

Yep.

Yeah. No, I think it's. I think that's the one nice thing, actually, to me, that's really the story of north and South. It's not all these stupid marriages. It's the bromance between George and Ori, how it survives the war.

Well, and I think that's why it's taken so long to get to the war, because they're really setting up this buildup of this strong relationship of these two men and how deep it is and when they are going to fight against each other. How deep? What is deeper?

Yeah.

Right.

And so siblings are also getting together.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

The families are intertwined. Yeah. Okay, so I gotta ask you guys, at this point, we're four episodes in. I know. We, we. I think Scott, I think texted me and said that, Scott, you were like, when do you get to the war?

That's exactly what I said. I was like, Jen, when are we getting to the war? I asked her am to I going to see the war in. In this first season.

Four more episodes before we get to the war.

Oh my gosh.

Oh, no. I think it's two more episodes and then the third one, we're finally there, but we're building up now. So let me ask you though, four episodes in. Jen, this is, you know, nostalgic watch for you, Scott. This is your first time. Your virgin eyes. What, what are your, what are your takes on it?

So. So I've enjoyed it more than I expected. Right. Just like the first two episodes. These two episodes to me were a little bit romance heavy. Just personal preference.

Yeah.

But I do like how they have really done, like they really tried to keep these, these kind of key historical points through the episodes, bringing up the things that everybody understands, but also going deep enough that I looked up the drinking song from what they were singing in the West Point bar. Benny Havens O. That's an actual. To this day, that's still a West Point drinking song. So they went through the effort to. With the uniforms and like you said, the oil lamps and the drinking songs and all these little things. I mean they, they really tried in, in a lot of these spots and I, and I really appreciate that because they're not. Sometimes it's, it's easy for Hollywood to rush through things.

Yes.

And you'll get a little bit lost. Especially someone like me who's not, you know, doesn't study history as. As much as. As this one is sitting next to me. And you know, of course, you know, my favorite, my favorite piece of this is, like you said, is the bromance. Right. I. I just love that. That's what keeps me, you know, stay. Staying tuned. That's what keeps me in it. That's what keeps me tied to the story is these two going through because you can picture, you know, those are some of the best stories, the best movies miniseries, when you can picture yourself a little bit in that. In one of those character shoes. And I could picture myself in either. On either side. And that's the mark of A well written story in my opinion. Because I can see myself on the hazard side. I can see myself and the struggles and the conflicts on the main side. And that to me has been what's kind of. So I've been so impressed with up to this point. You know, and then, then they throw in the fun stuff, right. They throw in the, the, hey, that would never happen, but you know, she sleeps with the slave or whatever it is. Right. All that, all those kinds of things is they, they throw those in there and it's actually, I can see why it was a miniseries in the 80s that did so well.

Yeah, I, I think like we were saying before when we started that the, you know, like in a normal war movie, you throw the romance in so that a guy and a girl can go out on a date and there's something for everybody. But it's really for the guy in the miniseries like this. It's a. It's a love story, it's a soap opera, but you throw in the war for the guy. But honestly, like I, I feel like men and women probably could have really gotten into half of each episode.

Yeah.

Like, and, and I think the guys, every guy has a George Hazard or an Ori main. Right. We have that best friend. And, and you talk about the same things they talk about. Your families get to know each other well. And it's almost like you feel like they're your family. You're a little freer to maybe criticize a cousin of your friend or something that you wouldn't do with another friend's family. And, and you know, and then you vehemently disagree on certain things. But at the end of the day, when the other one's love sick and drinking his face off, you come and you snap him out of it and you invite him to be your best man or something at your wedding. And you know, those things are petty, those disagreements and everything. They're nothing. They're petty compared to what this person means to you. And, and it's.

Yeah.

I think everybody can relive. Women can relate to that too. Let them. You know, women have a best friend like that as well. Of course, I hate how you have to caveat everything or qualify everything. Of course, both men and women have best friends. What about you, Jen? What do you think?

I love the bromance. I think for me, what I really like about the north and the south is what I feel like we're falling away from in today is people don't want to empathize with the South.

Yeah.

People Want to villainize everybody who was in the south and how could you. And the greatest sin. And yes, slavery was all that. But you have to. I like what this does is it gives you a real sense of a person who. Like, I think Patrick Swayze plays it so well, who is living in this world, a part of this world, grew up in this world. And how he rationalizes this, even with his sister reading Uncle Tom's Cabin. Is. Is this real for us? Like, I find nowadays, people don't want to play those roles. They don't even want to play.

Yeah.

Where you're empathizing with us. The south, like, I. We did a story about a woman who was a Confederate slave. I mean, she was a Confederate spy. Right. And I was trying to give her agency. Like, look what she did. Look at how she rode her horse for three days to spy for the Confederacy. Women didn't do that back then. And people were like, are you a Southern sympathizer? And I'm like, no, I'm trying to give agency to people who are living through this in real life. Right. People's real lives. And nowadays, people shy away from giving any kind of humanity to these brothers who fought against each other. Right. These friends. And that's what I. I really love about the north and the south is it's. It's giving you a real sense of both of these men. I actually like the bromance better than any of the other romances. Like, yeah.

Too.

Because it's fun.

Yeah. And I see the real love between these two men. Right. And I. I will say women have best friends. We love our best friends. It's more rare, I think, for a man to have a real close best friend like this. Right.

I. I think you're right. And it's a shame because I. I have a. A best friend. People often say that I'm the Patrick Swayze of the two. But, like. And I, I, I must tell you, like, when I watch this, I picture the two of us in these situations. Honestly, I don't know who would be who. But it's not even in the context of the Civil War. It's just. Could I eventually find myself on the opposing side of a battlefield? To Pete, my best friend.

I know.

I. I think, you know, I thought about that, actually, more than I probably should have before watching this, and I always struggled with that, because the answer is I run across the lines and be the first one to shoot him for being so stupid as to take up arms against my side. So, you know, just thank God, we're too old to fight wars now, Pete. But if we were younger, would have been. It would have been a mess. But yeah, no, I think the bromance is nice. And, and you're right. I think I don't know too many men who have a. A male best friend.

Yeah.

Maybe that's an old fashioned thing. I don't know. I hope it's not. It's a great. It's a great thing to have. You don't need a whole bunch of friends if you got a good one.

Yeah.

Nope. I always say it's better to have four quarters than 100 pennies.

Yeah.

When it comes to friends.

Yeah, There you go.

All right. Can I give a little preview?

Yeah, let's do it. Let's hear the preview of the next couple episodes five and six.

These are just the notes off of the first page of episode five and then the first page of episode six.

Okay.

Just highlights of some of my notes.

Ready?

Here we go. Justin is a real dick. She's now a dope head and acts like she doesn't know Ori.

Oh wow.

Ori has come to follow up on an invite to Ashton's wedding. Jesus, another wedding. That's first page, episode five.

Nice.

We're gonna have to beep somebody.

Oh, do you.

I'm sorry, it could be History After Dark. That we have History After Dark?

Yeah, we do. Okay. Okay then let's see here. Oh, okay. Episode 6. George visits Ori to apologize face to face to save their friendship. What's he apologizing for? Gonna have to watch episode five to find out, ladies and gentlemen. And then let's see what else here. Oh. George and Ori agree to let Billy and Brett marry.

Ah, nice.

Okay, all right. And then.

Oh.

Oh.

While celebrating, Billy is recall recalled to Fort Moultrie as it is put on alert. Ooh. And that's all on page one.

All right, well folks, you, thanks for sticking with us through this episode. We are really enjoying. I am really enjoying talking about north and South. Not only because it's just an ultra classic 1980s Civil War era miniseries with Patrick Swayze, but I, I am enjoying the company with Mr. Matt Calry here. So folks, thanks for listening, thanks for watching. Stick around. Subscribe to both our channels to catch the next episode which will be. We'll be talking about episodes five and six. And if you haven't watched the first episode where we talk about episodes one and two, you can go check that out. Obviously I'll, I'll link that down below. So Matt, thanks for joining us again. And for everybody else. Yeah, for everybody else. Stick around and we'll talk to you guys next time.

Yep. Thank you.

This has been a Walk with History production. Talk With History is created and hosted by me, Scott Benny, episode researched by Jennifer Benny. Check out the show notes for links and references mentioned in this episode. Talk With History is supported by our community at the History Road Trip. Our eternal thanks go out to our lifetime members to help keep us going. Thank you to Doug Liberty, Larry Myers, Patrick Benny, Gail Cooper, Christy Coates, Calvin Gifford, Courtney Samini, Gene Noah, Larry Mitchell, Tommy Anderson, Susan Sulas, Bruce Lynch, Dino Garner, Mark Barrett, Don Kennedy, and John Simpson. Make sure you hit that follow button and that podcast player and we'll talk to you next time.