Alex

Before we get started, I wanted to let you know that this episode includes details of an accident that some listeners might find upsetting.

Jonathan

And people were talking to me, but it's just like an echo. I wasn't really hearing stuff because I was just a complete shock.

Alex

Welcome to stories of men beneath the surface. I'm Alex Amelia. Join me as we discover what it means to be a man in the modern era.

Today we're hearing how a horrific accident led one man to a lifetime of wandering before he learned the value of sacrificing his own needs for those of his loved ones. Nothing was 17 when he met Samantha was love at first sight. And it wasn't long before Jonathan had proposed a couple of plans to move to the UK that their lives together. Summer, the couple decided to take a trip with Samantha's father Jeff and her sister Tabitha, the group set off in their truck.

Jonathan

She had blonde hair, and long blonde hair, she always used to wear a dress. She was lovely. She's bubbly, very kind, very sweet. would do anything for anybody who always thought about other people than herself. I was more of a rebellious one. And she was one that kept me on the rails. We decided to stop for a bite to eat. And we were traveling in a pickup. We were in the back with a canopy at the back. We're sitting in there and we're driving along. And I'll never forget when it happened and we're all playing the game and I spy with my little ice on the beginning with whatever it was game just trying to kill time and next minute it was this big massive wall. And it was just like a big days. Were not at my eyes I was on a lying on top of the road. But I'd sort of propelled in the air two by 10 meters in the air. And by the time I recovered I just saw two bodies behind me. And then when I when I went to see how the father was he was just sitting there on his staring was saying check my daughter's around to Tabitha knows she was just lying now shaken, because I could see she wasn't breathing. And then it's over the top of the camera. Come on, wake up what's going on. So maybe she was concussed or something and you said that? Nothing. Okay. Okay, she's okay. I couldn't understand why I couldn't speak properly. And why I thought I had my teeth. But it wasn't till later, I realized that I had broken my jaw had been dislocated. And I had to actually hold up my jaw to run to Sam and I just see like blood everywhere. lying on the floor. This was about 50 meters away from the pickup when I landed. So that's how hard the impact was, what I went to to pick her up, I could feel the spine out of her neck. And then obviously, I was shaking her as well. But I was just I knew straightaway subconsciously that there's no way anybody could survive that. She was dead instantly. Basically, I knew I knew she was gone. But obviously I meant that. I knew it. But I can't be coffee. I was sitting on the bank for like 20 minutes to shake my rocking back and forth shake me for half an hour sitting on that bank. Because I was in so much shock. Because I knew that that I'd lost my fiancee. And then I ran back to see the Father by the time I got back. He was gone too. I mean, I really got two words out of him before I ever spoke to him again. Two words were my my daughter's my daughter's

Alex

What did Samantha mean to you? And and how did you feel about her dying?

Jonathan

Ha she is my life. I mean, we I've been together a long time for I met him when I was 17 years old at school. So I was still in school. When I met him we had we had a place together, we'll rent a place in South Africa, we moved around with a lot together. And we've made plans for this. We have plans to go to the UK and save up and come back, buy a home and we have plans to have family and everything. It was just there was no there's no question and where we wanted to go in life because this is where we wanted if it was just, you know, it's one of those things I don't know probably this fairy style stuff was meant to be you know, you're supposed to be together with there was never any doubt. You know, obviously when I got all the different relationships, you start realizing what people go through. But for me, it was just, this is it. This is what I want. This is what we want. And that's all we ever worked again.

Alex

Even though you you'd met when you were 17 Why did she mean so much to you? Why was there no doubts? What was it about her in your relationship?

Jonathan

It was just who she was she she she accepted me for who I was, she knew that I had the rebellious side to me and I could be a bit crazy, but she knew I was loving and caring. She understood me more than anybody. She actually understood me better than I understood myself. So she really knew how to to not please me but satisfy me in such a way that I felt so, so complete. Like even if I was doing something wrong should just speak to me in a way that would make me accept that I've done something wrong but at the same time, make me feel that you know I can improve and don't do this got to think again. So it was just the way she approached it the way her mentality, everything was just so, so nice and polite and smooth, where I was the complete opposite, you know, and she accepted me for who I was, was just incredible. You know, my mother even talks about it today, even even I've got a new family and everything just still brings it up. So thinking Sam, and Sam was just like, well, you know this a long time ago, but definitely the Memory Box. So obviously, time does heal at some point, but you never forget rarely. It sent me a wall, basically, because I just went from drifting from country to country, I worked in Malta, I worked in Tenerife, New Zealand, Holland, done all the UK islands as well. And I never settled, I wouldn't hold a job more than two years. Basically, for like, the next 10 years, I just didn't want any commitment, I didn't want any relationship, I just want to be alone. Basically, I want to a lot of the time I wanted to be alone, because I didn't, I didn't like having these conversations with people over and over and over again, you know, when I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, you know, you don't want to keep hearing it, you sort of put it in the back of your mind. And you try and you try and move on with your life. You don't you don't bring up the stories, because you don't want to reignite the pain, all this sort of stuff. So I became very introverted myself. And I just kept a lot of the stuff sort of bottled it up, which is probably not the manly thing to do. I mean, I never even shredded a tear. So obviously, clearly had a problem with my emotions and not letting them lead into my pesky. But that's just the way I dealt with it. That took me a long time to get over it. It's like everything I planned, it just disappeared in a second. And we're going through this process of what we decided then all of a sudden is gone. It's very difficult to move on takes a lot of time to heal. I mean, you put on this, this false pretense that everything's okay. But it never is. Because you're not expressing it, you're holding it back. So I drifted for a long time. And I could work in bars and restaurants and hotels, and anything I could adapt to any environment. I just move on. But I would never ever settle my mind, I would never ever be with another woman. Again, because I just didn't want that. I didn't want to go through that pain again, when we were together for in total over 10 years. So there's a long time, she was the love of your life. She was my soulmate, basically. And back in those days, that was to me, there was no, there was no other alternative. But when you get all the you know, obviously, you wish somebody happy or something's not right, or I never felt that was

Alex

really interesting, because it makes me think about our ego and protection. And we want to protect our ego, we want to protect ourselves from something bad happening to us again. And I've done this before where I isolate myself off from the crowd. And I just want to be by myself and I you do go into protection sort of mindset. It's like you go in, it's almost like a war analogy of you, you're in the bunker, and you're in this fetal position, you're trying to make sure no one hurts you. And you had that.

Jonathan

Put this bubble around you that you know when anybody and you know, it's not, it's not that you don't want to be rude. You don't want people to know about you. You just don't want to be open that can basically because it's none of their business. You don't have to relive the whole process. So yeah, I mean, most people I mean, 90% of people don't know, that's why I was drifting. But that's why I do it. Because I just wanted to keep moving because I never knew where home was anymore. Now there's no way I would go back to South Africa live because there was nothing there for me anymore. I would I'd never I could never settle in England because it never felt like home. So all these places I went to like, you know, Spain and Holland and Mexico and Dominican Republic and all these places I worked and and I moved around. I'd never ever felt like home. In my mind. I didn't know what home was. So obviously I became a pretty intense drifter. You know, there's any the last six years I've actually settled

Alex

is hungry. Your home now do you feel like it's your home?

Jonathan

Definitely. Definitely. My wife at the moment Victoria, I met her in the UK when I was on one of my drifting sessions. When I met her it was the first time I ever felt the bond again, that that connection that that Samantha obviously would never be the same. Victoria is like more direct and Samantha would be, but at the same time, she's very caring and loving. And that piece of the wheel that's missing. I was like driving the one wheel bike for so many years. That's other we'll find so we've again, we've made plans. But we decided that this was planned. And everything was planned. Like if if we, when we have kids, it wasn't, you know, when we have kids who are gonna have kids and when we do have kids, we're going to we're going to be moving to Hungary, where the grandparents are on support and they must be raised Hungarian and they were decided from day one. And I'm living that exactly because that's what we planned. So very similar to what I did was similar Panthers plan, but obviously they went belly up this time, you know, I'm on a different plan with a different, different love. But the drifting has stopped. Because now I can turn around and say to myself, my home is hungry. And I've never been able to say that for the last 30 years.

Alex

Yeah, well, maybe I'm doing the same thing. Maybe I'm doing the exact same thing that you were doing. I mean, there is some element of that. And I think it's just having this conversation with you today is kind of give me something to reflect on after we finish is to say, Well, I am I am I drifting? Am I aimlessly looking for something, you know? And it goes back to the YouTube song? I still haven't found what I'm looking for? Well, what it what is it? I'm looking for? What's What are you looking for? What's the listener looking for? What are we all looking for?

Jonathan

I can tell you a secret. If you keep looking and never find it, just don't look, it will just be in your face before you know it. So I never expected this. And I was never ever, I never ever wanted to sit down and have kids and have a family of my age. I was not expecting that. And five years ago just wasn't fun to me. And it just changed the way I thought completely.

Alex

How did you change as a man after Samantha died and her dad died,

Jonathan

makes you stronger, of course and end up getting skin like Aruna, you know. I mean, nothing really can upset me. Because, you know, when you go through something like that, you just laugh a lot of the stuff. I came from a very old school sort of style, especially with my, my, my parents, and all they're very safe can start like, you know, the main guard there that earn the good money, and then another wife sit at home and cook and clean and do the rest of it. But obviously, we live in a different world today completely. And what I realize at this point is that since all this, this drifting have become more emotionally attached, like, I'd rather express my feelings more than I would before, because I just bottled everything up. And I would never ever talk about it. And it's not the health, I know it's not healthy, but I guess that's a man, you know, man up, you know, and that kind of thing. And I find that but the emotional side of it is a bit better. Not as much as a cookbook, but I am proof that side of it. And that's all through this life experience. But there's one thing that I did realize about being a proper man or man who to whatever you want to call it, what a man is about is this thing called self sacrifice. And self sacrifice is key. Because you get these people that come home and expect the wives to do this and do that and do that. That's just selfish. For me as what a man is, is about self sacrifice, like self sacrifice your kids, like you know, you go there, you do your work, you come home, you go and you spend time with your kids, you dedicate time that's because you put priority towards your kids instead of working and speaking of material, just put them to bed. Now, I've realized that I've had to sacrifice myself to improve my improve myself improving relationships. Same with relationship with Vicki self sacrificing the marriage relationship, and also sex self sacrificing a family life itself. I mean, I'm doing washing, I'm doing dishes, I do everything possible, change Nepalese restaurant. 10 years ago, you wouldn't catch me doing that. I wouldn't do anything like that. But I realize you've got to change and actually made me a better person. Whereas before, I'd be like, I don't want to do it. Now. I just do it because I want to do it. And I know it feels good and helps everybody helps a family. So this self sacrifice thing that I keep pumping into myself has worked very well for me in the long run, but give it 1015 years ago, I just sit on a couch while you start hoovering. Ryan, me or throw the meal at and throw the dishes in the sink and walk away. We're now it's very, very, very different. Become domesticated.

Alex

Do you think it was Victoria, who changed you? Or did you change yourself?

Jonathan

I think I think was a process. Obviously adjusting a lot. Meeting, you have a few relationships here and there. But you don't you don't take anything seriously. And then you start realizing that you actually a very arrogant person, you're not really doing anything, you're just expecting everything to do for you. And then you start changing. Like when my previous relationship I didn't really do much but now I did not because I was told because I saw the struggle. The screaming kids and all the rest of it. I thought so well I can sit in be at ignore the whole process, actually get involved in time resolve it. And I started that way. And sort of 1520 years ago, I wouldn't be doing that. And the thing is, for this when you when you do the self sacrifice thing as far as improving your relationship, your family, it makes it feels good. It feels good because you know I'm helping. I'm part of this relationship. We're part of this family I'm doing that my part. I'm not just going to work and earning the money and sitting on the couch and expecting a big plate of chicken. You know, I do more and obviously, in today's world, you know, everybody has to work. You know you can't afford just to to live on one income anymore. With the rise of costumes. Everything was changed from back when and my mother was my mother says raise three kids, the mom or your dad was a Sailing the sea, says yeah, but when there's 2022 Now, you know, it's very different.

Alex

You said that things have changed. And I suppose men have become more willing to help, etc. But I still hear about men who don't want to change nappies and don't want to cook food and come home and expect that food would be on the table for them.

Jonathan

I've got a friend who lives in the UK and has guy called Richard is the laziest guy ever. And he does nothing. I remember him watching his wife struggle, trying to put it on, put the pushchair together and holding two kids at the same time. And he's just sitting there smoking a cigarette. And I think maybe I was like, at one stage, when I see that type of thing. I think you know, that's not really, that's not manly. That's not anything to be to about being a man, that's just being an idiot, I

Alex

want to go back to the time that you were the you were drifting and going to different countries. Because you said that you bottle things up, if you'd have actually been open about your feelings, during those times do you think you would have drifted for as long as you did?

Jonathan

That's a really difficult question to answer. Because I wouldn't know the answer to that if I open up but I'm sure I'm sure I would have because maybe there would have been more support and maybe more comforting. Maybe my social life will be different. So yeah, of course, if I opened up, I will be on a very different path at this point. But you know, being South African, it's all about being tough. You know, you seen the Springboks and like they're like, oxes, you know, we were a tough nation. We don't we don't whine we just keep stuff to sort of grind and move on. So that's, that's the sort of the labeling of what a man is like in South Africa, calluses on your hand, you know, ripped jeans and arms are to the South African birds, you know. So they're really tough people. Tough nation. So obviously, you learn to bottle that up. I mean, today, we talked about gays and lesbians, you wouldn't you wouldn't mention that. And in South Africa in my youth, because it just just wouldn't, wouldn't go down. Well, so obviously, a lot of has changed. But I do wish that I had opened up earlier. But there again, Alex, I don't wish I'd opened up earlier, because that would change my fate, wouldn't it? Maybe you might not have met Victoria? Well, of course I wouldn't have if I'd opened up would have changed my path completely. I always say everything's meant to be the way it is, you are exactly where you should be. The only thing you can do is obviously improve how you move forward, you know, you can only change the No, it can't change the past.

Alex

I mean, you were you were dating other women during your drift in yours.

Jonathan

Dating like a week, maybe three or four months very, you know, was there the loss of their the fun was there, the sex was good, you know, it was all a good laugh and all that. But this was never there, you know, was never there because in here, there was no interest. But obviously, as a man, you need some sort of social interaction or some bondage some, some relationship with some port keeps off, keeps on moving, but in my head was never there, because I just wanted to go.

Alex

It's interesting, this whole idea of commitment for being a commitment phobe. And I think back to 2012. I was in Hong Kong at that time teaching English. I was 2524 25 then, and a girl I was kind of saying, I remember she said to me, are you a commitment phobe? And I kind of just brushed it off. But maybe a couple of years went by one day, I just randomly thought of this girl. And she said, Are you a commitment phobe and you sending me mixed signals. And I started to think about this. And I thought maybe there is some truth in what she says. But that was the first time anyone had ever mentioned that. And sometimes, for you to actually realize you've got an issue, it requires someone else to tell you that. So she really helped me out a lot. And I've only just thought about that now. I mean, of course anyone could be have issues with commitment and be in this protection mode, whether it's men or women, but I think with men, they're less likely to speak out especially if you come from a culture like you did in South Africa. And obviously I'm younger than you so as as we progress men do start to open up more so perhaps as a 29 year old man in what 2017 or something like that. I'd be more likely to open up than a 29 year old Jonathan, whatever year that was in the 2000s Yeah,

Jonathan

definitely. Well, it's a different different eras and I mean, when I was 29 years things are a lot different than what they are now. And we weren't using like L'Oreal face cream. You know, we were just like a high people have calluses and bruises and scratches and the holes in our shoes and stuff. Different now I'm like, Oh, the shame of stuff. I would love to you know, so of course, everything changes and relationship but yeah, but the thing is it's when you open up I mean, I don't know if you agree this Alex but it's not. All you have to do is open up slightly. The unless the woman will bust you up and completely, you just have to give them something that busted up. And that's what that's what Vicki did to me. You know, she had asked me something, and I'd answer like two or three words, and then she busted up and even more, and really make me start talking about myself make me think about what I'm saying. And I said to her, Listen, I don't have kids. And I'm too old for it. And she was adamant. She said, what you're going to do just be on your own. And because I want kids, and that's what made me realize, I mean, she made me make a massive decision by making me open up. So she was basically my shrink. And I would never allowed that. So that means that I was very comfortable with with Vicki, because I would never let anybody do that, to me, I just have this like this bubble, this bottle. And I'll give you two or three words, answers. That's it. And I would do it on purpose to stop the conversation. But no, she just should just twist and open it up. And she really opened me up and made me realize that, you know, I've got an opportunity here to be with somebody that I'm feeling very comfortable with. And that obviously was pretty new at that stage. But now obviously, there's unthoughtful love that we have. And our beautiful kids now and I live in a beautiful home, I wouldn't have that, if it wasn't for the fact that she bust me open. So basically, if you let yourself open up a little bit, if a woman really, really wants to be part of your life already feels towards you. They'll do the rest and then you feel a lot more comfortable. But to sit there and open yourself are completely a woman. I don't think any man is going to do that. But just give them something and they will work on it

Alex

seems to me that since since the tragic loss of Samantha, you had those many years drifting, it's almost like you'd not overcome the trauma, correct me if I'm wrong, but you've not overcome the trauma. So you're drifting drifting, you're having these casual relationships. And then it takes a special woman like Victoria to help you perhaps overcome the trauma you've almost been able to get that love back that was missing for many years.

Jonathan

Yeah, that emotion that was missing on it was so you know, there's less than a good body and all that but that that feeling you know that feeling of love? You know, that's like a real adrenaline rush to get that back after all these years you think you'd never I mean I'd never think is I was never looking for I didn't want it again because it creates so much pain for me last time I'd let myself go and open up and boom was just stripped out of me so obviously maybe subconsciously that was just blocking me didn't want to open up for that. But then obviously when when I met Victoria, you know she started with a screw and started opening up slowly but she she knew everything about me within six months. Everything all this stuff that I'm talking about she knew about because she made me want to talk about it. She made me want to it's like I've been waiting for this person just to spear all the stuff which I've never ever spoke about it but I mean I've got like sobbing there with my bawling my eyes I will tissue we're just talking about it again, in a comfortably without you know, people go oh, I'm so shame or shame. That's not sympathy I look for. It's just nice to get it out. So I guess I guess you're right there just was caged up for a long time. And she obviously found a key to open it, I guess. I think

Alex

that's the beauty of current and previous relationships is that you do your partner almost does end up becoming some sort of counselor for you or you reveal things to girlfriends wives, etc. that you wouldn't say to your your mates, your friends. And I find women have usually very good listeners. And they're able to the almost sort of just give you this invitation to be open and be vulnerable. And I don't know why vulnerability is considered feminine. But in traditional forms of femininity, it is considered, you know, vulnerability is considered feminine. But the more I tap into the feminine, the more of a man I feel like I've become and the more I feel like I don't need to protect myself anymore because you're going you're going from protection to connection and that's what you've done. Your protection was yeah, you're protecting yourself after everything that happened with with Samantha in the and her father. And now you've gone on this long process of protecting yourself by just having these casual relationships and now you've gone to connection you've met you know, an amazing woman and and you're in a completely different headspace these days.

Jonathan

Like I said, their feminine side you're saying Alex, it's Assange and people like oh, I don't want to get bored but you when you tap into it without realizing it does make you feel a hell of a lot better. That's just very strange. And I like I wear nicer clothes now and our groomers are better and something I would have never bothered but now Vicki's lugging shave your eyebrows go and do this list. Buy some nice clothes, it just makes you feel denied it's really strange.

Alex

Did you buy that branch on product?

Jonathan

Probably everything in my water to be honest,

Alex

too. Bates, whether it's a nice a jumper, but I'll let you off,

Jonathan

I could travel, I could travel with a backpack with three items of clothing and just wear it over and over and I wouldn't care. But now that, you know, she wants me to feel good about myself, he wants for the family for the kids and, and something that it's a very feminist thing. But at the same time, it makes you feel really, man, it's very strange.

Alex

Men have very different ways of dealing with loss. In Jonathan's case, he has this inability to deal with it. What he decided to do, perhaps consciously or subconsciously, was to be a lone wolf was to kind of stay away from the crowds, be isolated and be a wanderer and gone travel around the world. I suppose he was a drifter. What does it mean to drift? I've definitely taken a similar approach to Jonathan. And after speaking to him, it really made me go away and have a think about it. Am I doing the same things right now? Should I be settling down? Or should I just continue traveling? What is the intention behind what I'm doing? Why am I doing it? Is it born out of trauma, sort of difficult experiences? Or is it because I'm really wanting to do this? As is the case with Jonathan, behind every great man is a great woman. We've heard this sentence so often. Why does some men struggle without the guidance of a woman? When I think about my own previous relationships, I think a woman has been able to help me to improve myself to bring up my feminine side and reveal parts of my character or parts of my personality that I kept hidden, which definitely elevated me and helped me to become a better man. As I'm doing a lot of episodes on the podcast at the moment, and I'm speaking to different people about femininity and masculinity. It's just something that keeps coming back to me again and again that the more I embrace my feminine, the more of a man I become. And I can see this in friends and other men in my life as well. Jonathan is someone I've known for a few years now. And I've actually met him face to face he lives in Budapest with his amazing wife Victoria and his two kids Shamu and Rebecca, and he's absolutely embraced his feminine side as well. Doing things he could never possibly have imagined doing. changing nappies, parenting as a whole doing dishes, domestic duties. I think this has definitely made him a better man as well.