Washington Square. On air is the audio town square for the Washington Square Review. Lansing Community College's literary journal. Writers, readers, scholars, publishing professionals, citizens of the world, gather here and chat about all things writing. Hey, there. This is Melissa Ford Luckin from the Washington Square Review. I'm here today with two authors, Aliza Mann and Reem Kashat. Aliza, let's talk with you first. I know that your real name is Patricia Barnett, and you're actually kind of a corporate person, but tell us a little bit about your writing life first.

Well, my writing life began in 2011, and I decided, you know, it had been years and years of, like, noodling on it, thinking, like, oh, I could write something. And, you know, you just don't ever think that you can make that leap. So in 2011, I, like, got my nerves together and went forward with it. So I've been writing ever since then.

Was there something in particular that suddenly made you take the leap?

You know, my partner Ryan was like, you know what? You seem like you're just kind of going through the motions. You don't really seem happy. You're a mom, you know, you have relationship, you have a job, but you don't seem happy. And he said, I think you need a hobby. And I was like, well, I used to like to write. And next thing you know, I sat down one night with a pen and a piece of paper because typing it felt too permanent, you know, And I just started writing, and then I got a little confidence. I wrote a short story and submitted it to a little online magazine, and it got published. So I was like, oh, my God, I'm a writer.

Yeah.

Yeah, it happened like that.

So what were the first steps that you did take publicly?

So I joined rwa, like, first, because I was like, I want to write romance. You know, even though I had been reading romance my whole life, I wanted to learn the mechanics of romance. So I joined rwa, which was Romance Writers of America, found a little group, Greater Detroit Romance Writers of America. And then I joined, and I found all the things that I didn't know about romance writing immediately, but they kind of helped me, like, you know, hone the craft, you know. So one of the first steps, you know, I did was try to seek help, and then I kind of took it from there. You know, they had great guidance, great tools, things that I could think about and say, okay, I want to take this approach. So that was very helpful.

Yeah, I'm kind of laughing when you said you learned all this under, like, underside, because reading fiction and writing fiction are, like, really different.

Absolutely. You know, you read it and you imagine this writer sitting in, like, a fluffy robe, heel, shoes, and she's like, writing her book. Very calm. Candles, Candles. You know, it was very much like a romance in the stone, you know, in my head. And I was like, oh, she just gets up every day and writes her book and then it just comes out of her head easily. And then she sends it off to her fabulous editor.

Right.

And then it gets published. Woo hoo. And so very different.

Yeah, we're gonna talk a little bit more about that in a couple minutes, but let's bring in Reem.

All right. Hey, girl. Hi.

So you guys are friends in real life?

Yes.

Talk a little bit about that. How did you meet?

So we were working together. I came in like guns ablaze and, like, ready to change the world, like a supervisor over enrollment at our job. And I met Reem and she was kind of like, you know, like, hey, you know. And I was like, okay.

I don't remember it like that, but.

I'm like, okay, okay, tell me how you remember it.

I think we were. It felt like a divided. It was a divided environment.

Yeah.

And you were on management side and I was in, you know, employee side. And I think I might have had a little bit of resistance because I felt that she had kind of told a lie and gotten me in trouble. So that's why I had that look like, mm. When she walked back.

I had no idea, by the way. I was literally fighting for my life. You know, it was my first time, like, being a people leader. So I was on the struggle bus very much. And I was like, looking for any friend because management, the management folks kind of treated me differently because I'm like a jokester. I'm like, you know, I'm one of those people that doesn't take anything too seriously. And they were all very serious people.

So you kind of didn't fit in with the management, but you didn't fit in with the staff employees either.

That's right. The individual contributions.

You did need a friend.

Get out of here, snitch. And I had no idea. I was like, okay. You know, and then one day, I was walking past Reem's desk and my husband, my husband, my husband, my husband. But Eric, Vampire Eric from True Blood, the Southern vampire series. She had a big old screen saver of my husband. And I was like. I was like, why you got my husband on your screen? She was like, that's my husband. I was like, I'm going on break, we could talk about it. And then that is literally how we became friends. Or at least, you know, cordial, right? And then it went on. You know, we were, like, taking breaks with each other. You know how you do coffee? Like, hey, let's go get a coffee. And then she said. We were talking about reading, of course. And she said, well, I wrote a book. I said, what? What do you mean? And then she was like, yeah, I wrote a fan fiction romance based on Harry Potter.

It was Syvoris and Mani.

Okay?

So I was like, that sounds awesome. And she let me read it. And I was like, listen, girl, I go to this group, you gotta come with me. Because I'm always. I'm always soliciting friends. You can see this. So I was like, you gotta come to my monthly meeting.

Come to my friend.

That's right. And she, like, resisted for like, two months. About two months, yeah. Finally, I went to the RWA conference and I came back and then you were like. I was like, oh, my God. I met and I saw and I met and I saw, you know, And Charlene Harris was actually there, who was. We were a big fan of. And Beverly Jenkins was there, and Brenda Jackson. It was just amazing. Back in Anne Rice. Anne Rice. Yes, Anne Rice. And I slobbered all over Anne Rice. Poor lady makes you rest in peace. But then when I told her that, she was like, okay, maybe your little group has something to it. And she came and she never left. So we got closer and closer, literally through books and writing.

So that's pretty awesome.

Yeah, it's a lot of fun.

I'm pretty sure that I know this because I know you personally, that your career hasn't been all hearts and flowers and loveliness.

Have mercy. You know that?

So once you got into the idea of that the writing was work and that there wasn't going to be, you know, sparkles and sunshine, what happened next?

Well, I cried a little bit. Unfortunately, it's not an even road, right? So there's ups, downs, hills, valleys, and that the highs are really high. Like, you get an agent, you get a big contract, you get something that you've been wanting for so long, and then you get those valleys. Like, you can literally have a super high high. And then you get a rejection. You know what I mean?

Is there anything that stands out in your mind, a memory of when that happened?

The very worst thing. The very worst thing. Let me see. I think the very worst thing was I was actually pitching to an agent and I almost tipped the table over on Her. And I was like, oh, my God. But losing my editor was probably the worst because I finally had, like, nailed it. I got my contract with a Big Six. At the time, it was Big Six publishing house. And, you know, things were going good. It was time for me to do my second book, and we were literally working through it, and then she got let go. And I don't know how many authors have lost an editor, but you have to kind of find your way back through that. And it was another day of laying in the bed and staring at the ceiling going, why me, Lord? It knocks the wind out of you, and it takes a minute for you to get your stride back. So that was probably one of the very worst things that happened.

I think that's one of the misconceptions that people have sometimes, is that once you hit that one first success, that it's all just magic from there. But it's really not. Like you said, it's ups and downs and ups and downs.

But it is a wonderful life, right? Because we get the opportunity to create stories that will resonate with someone. Someone who is like you as a little girl or like you as a teenager or like the woman you are now, that just needs a little boost and understanding that happily ever after can be for them whatever that looks like in all its myriad of form. You know, that book that you're writing can do that for someone. So that's the thing that you kind of cleave to. You're like, oh, my God, this is. This will keep me going. That someone will email me out of the blue and be like, I love that story, or DM you. And we love that. Right? But they DM you and say, this story meant so much to me, and that's gotta pull you through.

Yep, yep. One of the things that has to happen first, as you said, you have to get an editor. And so talk a little bit about how you work with an editor when you're sharing your vision, and then if there's a disconnect, shall we say yes?

So, you know, we always start out with the book in our head. These are our children. These are our babies. So we're very protective. So when an editor comes along and says, you know, that tension is just not enough, that plot point, you need a little more. It can be, like, gutting, you know.

Or if they pick at your character.

Or they pick at your character, I think the worst is probably when they're like, your character is just a B word, you know, like, she's too strong and you Know, you have this person in your head. They've lived with you for months and months. So it is challenging. But I do advise when you get that, like, take a step back and see it, try to see it from a different perspective. See, very hard to do that sometimes, because you love. Love, you know, your characters, your plot, your story. But sometimes they may be onto something for sure. And there are times when you can say, you know what? This is true to my character. This is true to my character's culture, whatever it is. And then you just stat those. You're like, I cannot change this piece. And hopefully you have an editor that is understanding about that. From what I understand, some editors are not. I have not worked with an editor that was like, absolutely not. But I know that they exist.

Yeah, there's give and take, which is, I think, another thing that a lot of readers aren't aware of.

Yeah.

Is that what they're reading is a collaboration between possibly the editor and the author, but might also be marketing may come into it.

Yeah, it's. It's. It's a whole, like, you know how they do that image where it's like the tip of the iceberg is showing. There's this whole glacier, and that's very much what it is. There are the COVID design, you know, as authors always have a cover design in their mind, and then you get it. It's like, this is underwhelming and, you know, or this is. This is not how my characters look. Or it could be a hundred things. All of those things come together to make a book, and it takes a very long time, especially when you're working with a publishing house. Every little detail is kind of thought about before the release, and that transfers from indie to traditional authors. You know, it's a lot of little decisions to make that one book happen.

Is there anything else you can think of that readers may not be aware of when they're reading a book? That goes into the craft part?

I think readers think everything comes together in a single line. There are times when I write backwards. There are times when I write from the side. You know, there are times when you're standing in front of the refrigerator and a line pops into your head, and you're like, I must add this. You know, so it's not a linear process all the time. Some writers sit down and they write, you know, just straight out. But very few do that. I think most of us kind of, you know, take it in sections and chunks, and I. I think that's part of the entire process. You know how you come at it. And it's not always just a straight line. Yeah, yeah.

It's also, when you're writing, you're also balancing your day job. So talk a little bit about that.

Well, it can be challenging, as you can imagine. And I work in corporate America. I work in health insurance. And, you know, there are times when that job is so demanding, it can kill your little voice. You know, the muse is like, I don't want to play with you. And you all scary lady demanding. In which way it can be late nights working. I do get the luxury of working from home, but it still can be like seven, eight o' clock. And, you know, my writing life deserves time too. Right. So at 9 o' clock, I've had dinner, I'm sitting there, and then I'm trying to push that day job out of my head. And it's hard sometimes. And I think that's the sacrifice that some authors have to make doing the day job and then doing the writing job. But the thing that you always have to remember is what I just said. That writing piece, it deserves time, too. So, you know, I'm kind of protective over my weekends. I kind of go, okay, I really gotta. You know, I need at least eight hours over these two days to spend time writing. And it's. You know, I want to say I write every night. And there are authors that will tell you you have to write every night, but sometimes you're just physically not able to. You're just tired and you need rest. You need to water yourself. You know, you need to do all the things, spend time with your family. So it is definitely a juggle sometimes.

Reem, is there anything she's leaving out?

No. I mean, our day jobs are on a computer as well. Right. And we write on a computer, so a lot of times I can't stand looking at the computer after I log off of work. So I get that. It's hard to find that balance sometimes.

Yeah, it is. And I think the dream is, oh, I will write and it will support me and my family.

Right, right, right. Yes, yes.

And then you get a royalty check for like $8.62, and you're like, oh, that doesn't.

Yeah, from stuff that sold a year ago.

That's right. That's right. It's surprising, and I'm thankful for everything. However, $8.62 is just not going to cut it at the grocery store, sadly.

How are you going to cut it at Starbucks?

It might pay for your parking, maybe.

Yeah, yeah. So. But Yeah, I think that's the dream. But, you know, everybody doesn't get there. And I think that's important for new writers too, to understand that sometimes your writing life may not look like what you envision. And like I said, I saw romance in the stone back in the early. Early so. And she was living her life. She was writing. She had a cat, she had a Manhattan apartment. She had a fireplace. The fireplace was amazing. Right. And I was like, oh, my God, that's such a.

It'll be just like that.

It'll be just like that. I'll be, you know, mediocre, wealthy. Right. And eventually some guy would sell a boat down the middle of, you know, you know, and that'll be it. I'll be married and happy.

Well, that just reminded me when you mentioned earlier when you first came back from that first conference with all the things, and she came in and she like, brought and was like, look, if we write. Yeah. And if we write this story and then we would break down, we'll have like a million dollars by the end of the year.

It was so ridiculous. And you know what? I love that girl from my past. I wish she was here sometimes because she was so, so blind.

Well, talk a little bit about what you're currently working on, the kinds of books and what you've got going on that way.

So I am actually working on a small town romance. It's contemporary and it is very much seasoned romance. And seasoned romance is, you know, once you're hitting the midlife. So she is dealing with her mother's ailments. They had a difficult relationship, and she's also returning to her small town. Okay. So it should be. It's been a lot of fun. I'm trying to push some comedy in there because, you know, you want to laugh with all that drama happening, you know, so, so. But it's been fun to write. And then I think I'm gonna work on my paranormal vampire series that I have out. So I'll work on the third story in that series.

Another thing what you're saying reminds me that people often aren't aware of is how deadlines impact what you're working on and how marketing. You have to choose what you're gonna work on. So you might want to work on one thing, but you need to work on something else to up a series or anything. Has that impacted you?

I think, you know, you can't write to trend, unfortunately.

Right.

But I think we all have to bear in mind what might be passe, what might not be Selling in romance anymore. I never thought about that either. I never thought about, oh, there will come a time when historical romance is a hard sell. Never in a million years did I think that. Or there will come a time when there's a saturation of rom com, you know, so those are the things that you have to, like, put in your head too, as you come up with an idea. And that's so depressing. You're like, I want my muse to just run free, but you can't write. You know, some of the things we used to Write in the 80s and 90s.

Amnesia.

That's right. Or, you know, like, you know, just like modern day rogues. Like that is not gonna say fly right now, you know, so, you know, we just have to bear that in mind. It does make a difference. Even if you're not on deadline, even if you're not contracted, what you write should be very representative of things that are appropriate for the time. You know, a lot of things we can't. We just can't do anymore, you know, so, yeah, that does play into it. And then deadlines are the scourge of the earth. They. Yeah, everybody goes, I want to be in contract. And you know, in contract means that a publisher has purchased your book. And you know, at the end of that contract or at some, at some point, you're going to have a date when the book is due and you're supposed to be writing that whole eight months.

Yes. Not celebrating for the first two.

And then you're like, oh, yeah, exactly. So, you know, procrastinators probably suffer from this the worst. They're like, oh, my God, I got three months left. Let me go sit down. So, yeah, writing to deadline is challenging, but it's also a lot of fun too sometimes to push yourself when you're running up against it.

Except when that blinker, the mouse just blinks at you and you have no words come out.

Yeah. Oh, my God. Yeah.

You know what?

Contract, like brain deadness. Yeah. It's like, that's not a word.

It's like a mental block that has.

Happened before when you're like, I gotta have this in. And you just can't think of a single thing. And your muse is shut down and your characters aren't chattering.

Yeah.

You know, that is the most horrifying experience.

And each day that goes by, you're.

Like, oh, my God, I can't think of anything.

Deadline gets closer.

I don't have a single fix for that, by the way. I just kind of have to Try to inspire myself. Like, I go back to, like, you know, the recipes, as they say. I go back to, like, old school things that made me feel good. I read old books that, you know, make me feel good. You know, I try to, like, capture that vibe that I'm looking for. Challenging. It doesn't work all the time.

All right, well, you mentioned putting some comedy in your romances that you write.

Yeah.

And I know that you do some comedy standup.

I do.

So let's hear about that.

So I don't know if I was having a little midlife crisis. You know, it was right around cr. I was like, I need something else to do. And like, I didn't have enough, you know, drank kids and, you know.

Right, yeah, deadlines.

Exactly. And deadlines. And I was like, I think I'm gonna take a comedy class. And it really was initially, I'm gonna learn the art of writing jokes. Because joke writing is definitely a skill set. You know, you have to learn about, you know, tagging and all of the things that go into joke telling. And it's a little different than romance. You know, each little story is very short, concise. New comics get about three minutes on stage, five minutes on stage. So, you know, you have to learn how to be concise. But I was like, oh, that's totally what I'm doing. I ended up. I walked into class and he was like, and we'll be doing a five minute comedy set at the end of class at Mark Ridley's comedy castle. And I was like, mark, we're not doing that. Like, this is. This seat's like 200 people. Are you, sir, are you insane? And he was like, no, you can do it. It's fine. You'll be good. I was so afraid. I got up on stage and some other person came out and was like, I am so funny. I was like, who are you? And I just let her go. So it has been quite a ride. I'm in the advanced comedy class right now. I've been doing open mics and I have another show coming up in Aug. I didn't think I could love anything as much as writing in the way of a career, but it's like your heart just opened up and there's more room. Look at that. So I absolutely love. Feels like coming home.

Has it fed into your writing?

It has, actually. I do see myself putting very inappropriate jokes in my book, and I'm probably gonna have to rein that back. Like the. Right now, the character, the moment she has dementia and she is the one who I'm letting be the most inappropriate, like flirting with her male nurse caregiver and, you know, all the things. So that's been a lot of fun. So. Yeah.

Does she try the jokes out on you first?

I think she's been entertaining me since we met.

Okay. Can you tell when she's drawing a new bit on you versus, like, okay.

Because she'll like, come out with this, like, zinger and I'm like, where'd that come from?

It's like a complete instead of being pieces of a joke.

But she's always like, in any setting that we're in, she's always an entertainer from, like, coworkers that we would hang out with after work or, you know, she's always been the funny one and I'd be like, oh, tell that one. Tell them that story.

You know, I have. You're right. I've been like, I probably thought I was funny a long time.

Not thought you were funny. Neither one of us would be laughing at those jokes.

Yeah. It's fun though. I really love it. It does add to that time thing where deadlines are like, okay, I'm gonna work on the book now. But it has been amazing. It's an amazing write.

It's more creative energy. Probably loops in and feeds the other creative energy, which I think maybe brings us back to what we were talking about before with, you know, like a deadline, brain freeze, or any kind of brain freeze is to find a different outlet for your creativity and get your creative mind awaken again and then it'll loop back in.

Yeah. I believe I have less since I'm working on comedy and then a novel. I have had less of those blinking cursor moments where you're just like, I don't know what to say. I don't have a story to tell. It is. It has been very helpful.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And also it seems like the success would nurture your self doubt. Having success in another area, that's fun and oh, yeah. More representative of you than perhaps corporate America.

Exactly. I think all of my co workers wonder, what is she doing? What is happening? So. But yeah, it really does help and lends to the voices lend to one another. And one day, hopefully I can leave corporate America so that they'll stop, you know, trying to usher me out the door. But yeah, it's been great.

Awesome. Well, I know we're going to post some links down in the show notes so people can stay in touch with both of those careers.

Yes.

So thanks a lot for joining us today.

Thank you. For having me. Amazing.

Thanks for stopping by the audio Town square of the Washington Square Review. Until next time, this has been Washington Square on air from Lansing Community College. To find out more about our writers, community and literary journal, visit lcc.edu.wsl. writing is messy, but do it anyway.