1 00:00:04,000 --> 00:00:09,100 . Hello, my name is Edmundson and you are listening to the eCommerce Podcast. 2 00:00:09,100 --> 00:00:09,610 Yes, you are. 3 00:00:09,850 --> 00:00:15,100 Now, I've been an ecommerce since 2002, and these days I partner 4 00:00:15,100 --> 00:00:19,420 with ecommerce brands to help them grow scale, and finally exit. 5 00:00:19,420 --> 00:00:23,020 And if you'd like to know more about how that works, and if we could work together, 6 00:00:23,200 --> 00:00:28,000 head over to our website, eCommerce podcast.net, where you will find. 7 00:00:28,365 --> 00:00:32,415 All of that information now today I am joined. 8 00:00:33,220 --> 00:00:39,700 By the wonderful Frank Ano, the CEO and founder of Revolv3, a payment 9 00:00:39,700 --> 00:00:44,470 optimization platform, which is based in Laguna Beach of all places. 10 00:00:44,500 --> 00:00:48,520 'cause if you're gonna base a company, why not base it in Laguna Beach? 11 00:00:48,850 --> 00:00:52,780 Uh, we're tackling what I think is a massive, hidden problem 12 00:00:52,780 --> 00:00:54,010 for subscription businesses. 13 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:55,670 Involuntary churn. 14 00:00:55,670 --> 00:00:58,850 Now we're gonna learn what this phrase means, but it's the thing, you know, 15 00:00:58,850 --> 00:01:03,200 that sort of painful situation where your loyal customers aren't actually choosing 16 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:08,750 to leave, but they just can't pay you because of some payment processing glitch. 17 00:01:09,290 --> 00:01:10,340 Uh, and you know what? 18 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:15,910 I wonder if we realize just how much money this is costing subscription commerce. 19 00:01:16,330 --> 00:01:19,030 Now, most merchants I speak to, we sort of seem to have 20 00:01:19,030 --> 00:01:20,920 the hope for the best strategy. 21 00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:23,830 You know, when it comes to payment providers, we pick one 22 00:01:24,070 --> 00:01:25,539 and we just hope it's gonna work. 23 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:30,490 Uh, but Frank has actually built his own solution after years of frustration. 24 00:01:30,730 --> 00:01:35,590 With existing systems that couldn't minimize false declines or even maximize 25 00:01:35,590 --> 00:01:38,320 payment approvals before founding Revolve. 26 00:01:38,320 --> 00:01:38,590 Three. 27 00:01:38,590 --> 00:01:44,050 He spent over 20 years as an executive at Ingram, uh, Ingram 28 00:01:44,050 --> 00:01:48,040 Micro and Experian, which probably means he knows your credit score. 29 00:01:48,310 --> 00:01:52,570 Uh, and now he's on a mission to reshape the recurring payment market. 30 00:01:52,570 --> 00:01:54,100 Frank, welcome to the show. 31 00:01:54,370 --> 00:01:55,750 Let's jump into it. 32 00:01:56,050 --> 00:01:56,590 What. 33 00:01:57,085 --> 00:01:58,525 What was it that kickstarted this? 34 00:01:58,525 --> 00:02:03,265 What made you realize that payment processing, uh, was such a critical 35 00:02:03,265 --> 00:02:07,645 issue for subscription businesses and why weren't the existing problems, uh, 36 00:02:07,645 --> 00:02:09,324 existing solutions fixing it, I guess? 37 00:02:10,165 --> 00:02:11,185 Yeah, great question Matt. 38 00:02:11,185 --> 00:02:12,775 Thank you so much for having me on the show. 39 00:02:12,775 --> 00:02:13,915 So honored to be here. 40 00:02:13,915 --> 00:02:15,535 Love everything that you guys have done. 41 00:02:16,315 --> 00:02:19,645 Um, so I longtime ecommerce person, right? 42 00:02:19,645 --> 00:02:24,805 And I, I consider myself super sort of savvy with respect to payments, um, 43 00:02:24,865 --> 00:02:27,805 until I actually got into Experian. 44 00:02:28,105 --> 00:02:28,375 Yeah. 45 00:02:28,375 --> 00:02:31,135 Um, and just to give you some perspective, I ran business operations 46 00:02:31,135 --> 00:02:33,055 there for their consumer business. 47 00:02:33,385 --> 00:02:35,665 Um, lots of subscriptions, right? 48 00:02:36,175 --> 00:02:36,265 Yeah. 49 00:02:36,325 --> 00:02:38,245 But a lot of churn related to it. 50 00:02:38,245 --> 00:02:40,735 Now you could say, well, you know, probably a lot of 51 00:02:40,735 --> 00:02:42,265 insufficient funds perhaps. 52 00:02:42,820 --> 00:02:47,980 Um, consumers with credit issues or things like that, but as we dove into it, it 53 00:02:47,980 --> 00:02:49,690 was a lot more nuanced than that, right? 54 00:02:49,690 --> 00:02:51,580 So a couple things to consider. 55 00:02:52,210 --> 00:02:57,730 Um, on average 10 to 14% of ecommerce orders decline. 56 00:02:57,970 --> 00:02:58,060 Yep. 57 00:02:58,990 --> 00:03:00,190 Here's the crazy thing. 58 00:03:00,220 --> 00:03:04,930 About two thirds of those declines are what the industry calls false declines. 59 00:03:04,930 --> 00:03:05,050 Oh wow. 60 00:03:05,290 --> 00:03:08,800 So those are valid transactions that should have been approved. 61 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:13,150 Um, if you wanna put that in perspective, last year, 2024, that was 62 00:03:13,150 --> 00:03:15,070 $600 billion worth of transactions. 63 00:03:16,885 --> 00:03:18,760 So, and that was just on my website, 64 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:19,000 Frank, 65 00:03:19,630 --> 00:03:20,350 probably. 66 00:03:21,130 --> 00:03:24,820 Um, um, so it was interesting when I got to Experian and looking through 67 00:03:24,820 --> 00:03:26,621 the churn and yeah, we wanted to do. 68 00:03:27,035 --> 00:03:29,045 Get better at the voluntary side, right? 69 00:03:29,045 --> 00:03:31,085 Do we have the right offers in place? 70 00:03:31,325 --> 00:03:35,195 Um, is it, you know, a value to the customers and that sort of thing. 71 00:03:35,525 --> 00:03:40,445 But a large majority of those, of that churn issue was related 72 00:03:40,445 --> 00:03:44,825 to that involuntary side and the majority of it on the payment side. 73 00:03:45,455 --> 00:03:51,305 Um, so hired some management professional payments people in, had them show me 74 00:03:51,305 --> 00:03:53,585 all of the data, the decline codes. 75 00:03:53,585 --> 00:03:55,085 We did a bunch of analysis. 76 00:03:55,420 --> 00:03:58,600 And we weren't effectively managing that, right? 77 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:02,530 We had right, tried to implement a Dunning solution, which is just, you 78 00:04:02,530 --> 00:04:06,370 know, maybe brute force trying to retry those transactions that they 79 00:04:06,370 --> 00:04:08,890 declined that was not effective. 80 00:04:09,220 --> 00:04:13,120 Lots of different things, and ended up ultimately building our own bespoke 81 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:15,280 system to help manage and optimize it. 82 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:20,440 Now here, here's a bit of secret around this stuff, the quality of data. 83 00:04:21,250 --> 00:04:24,850 That you pass in, that transaction matters significantly. 84 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:28,600 Payments is a, is uh, built on a game of trust, right? 85 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:28,660 Yeah. 86 00:04:28,660 --> 00:04:32,950 So the issuing bank has to trust that that consumer is buying that product 87 00:04:32,950 --> 00:04:38,050 and that region for that price point, um, to approve that transaction. 88 00:04:38,290 --> 00:04:38,530 Yep. 89 00:04:38,530 --> 00:04:41,290 And there's a lot of different, um, parts of that. 90 00:04:41,710 --> 00:04:42,940 Um, ecosystem, right? 91 00:04:42,940 --> 00:04:45,820 You got the merchant, they're using some sort of platform, typically going 92 00:04:45,820 --> 00:04:49,990 through a payment gateway, then to the acquirer and processor through 93 00:04:49,990 --> 00:04:51,550 the networks, to the issuing bank. 94 00:04:51,550 --> 00:04:54,130 Everybody has a different set of fraud rules along the way. 95 00:04:54,340 --> 00:04:54,550 Yep. 96 00:04:54,940 --> 00:04:55,120 Right? 97 00:04:55,750 --> 00:04:58,659 Um, and, and so there's a lots of different steps in 98 00:04:58,659 --> 00:05:00,010 where that can go wrong. 99 00:05:00,340 --> 00:05:01,960 Um, we found that. 100 00:05:02,740 --> 00:05:06,940 Owning all of that transaction throughout, um, and establishing 101 00:05:06,940 --> 00:05:11,290 that trust with that issuing bank significantly improved our numbers. 102 00:05:11,290 --> 00:05:15,340 And also having raw response code data from those issuers 103 00:05:15,340 --> 00:05:16,840 to know how to optimize. 104 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:21,430 Everybody has different error, uh uh, or decline codes or things like that, 105 00:05:21,430 --> 00:05:25,840 and knowing what that actually means and how to process that, that transaction. 106 00:05:26,695 --> 00:05:30,175 So does that mean then, Frank, if I'm listening, if I'm getting this right and, 107 00:05:30,175 --> 00:05:36,505 and, and help me understand one of the big problems that we have with our payments 108 00:05:36,505 --> 00:05:40,345 then, and I mean, these stats are, are horrific in the sense that it's 10 to 14% 109 00:05:40,345 --> 00:05:42,145 of our transactions will get declined. 110 00:05:42,655 --> 00:05:45,205 Um, it's not because of insufficient funds. 111 00:05:45,205 --> 00:05:48,565 I've, I, I must have had two or three declines this week on a 112 00:05:48,565 --> 00:05:50,305 card, which I know is fine, right. 113 00:05:50,305 --> 00:05:54,235 For whatever reason, uh, my, uh, Monzo card wasn't working. 114 00:05:55,045 --> 00:05:55,555 Um. 115 00:05:57,640 --> 00:05:58,750 So that creates annoyance. 116 00:05:58,750 --> 00:06:00,730 Do I keep going or do I do something else? 117 00:06:00,730 --> 00:06:04,360 Is, you know, is another question that totally amounts 118 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:06,340 to $600 billion in lost revenue. 119 00:06:06,340 --> 00:06:10,510 So two thirds of the declines are because of what you call false declines. 120 00:06:11,170 --> 00:06:18,550 Now is this, because there are too many, too many wheels that are trying to turn, 121 00:06:18,550 --> 00:06:19,780 there's too many people involved too. 122 00:06:19,810 --> 00:06:22,720 There's that phrase, isn't there too many cooks spoil the broth kind of thing. 123 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:23,560 Um. 124 00:06:24,370 --> 00:06:25,810 Is that what is happening? 125 00:06:27,340 --> 00:06:30,280 I mean, you know your system aside, but is, am I hearing that right? 126 00:06:30,280 --> 00:06:32,080 This is predominantly what you were having experience. 127 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:35,830 You've got three or four people in that daisy chain all with different 128 00:06:35,830 --> 00:06:38,560 thoughts, all with different ideas, all with different codes, all with different 129 00:06:38,620 --> 00:06:44,320 fraud mechanisms, and at some 0.1 of those goes wrong and so it gets declined. 130 00:06:45,250 --> 00:06:48,760 Yeah, there there's a number of different things that can go wrong, right? 131 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:49,090 So. 132 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:53,170 Um, everybody in the business wants to protect against fraud, right? 133 00:06:53,170 --> 00:06:56,260 So there's a lot of sort of pre-auth sort of stuff that 134 00:06:56,320 --> 00:06:56,410 mm-hmm. 135 00:06:56,800 --> 00:07:00,310 We utilize to make sure that we're, we're protecting the consumer. 136 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:00,730 Right. 137 00:07:01,180 --> 00:07:02,980 Um, that stuff is great. 138 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:05,950 Um, um, sometimes too much of that data. 139 00:07:06,265 --> 00:07:08,125 Can, can cause a little bit of concern, right? 140 00:07:08,125 --> 00:07:09,744 So we wanna be careful around that. 141 00:07:10,104 --> 00:07:13,224 Um, but everything, uh, in that transaction matters. 142 00:07:13,224 --> 00:07:17,965 So how the transaction is coded, um, what token are you using? 143 00:07:18,205 --> 00:07:21,145 Um, what MCC code is the merchant configured for? 144 00:07:21,145 --> 00:07:25,630 I. All of that informs us on what data is required, who the issuing bank is 145 00:07:25,870 --> 00:07:29,110 on, what data is required in order to get that transaction approved. 146 00:07:29,140 --> 00:07:33,430 I wish it was as simple as every issuing bank thinks about it in the 147 00:07:33,430 --> 00:07:35,410 same way and has the same fraud rules. 148 00:07:35,410 --> 00:07:35,740 Right? 149 00:07:35,980 --> 00:07:37,090 That's not the case. 150 00:07:37,090 --> 00:07:38,470 It's an imperfect science. 151 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:40,060 So knowing what. 152 00:07:40,765 --> 00:07:46,885 Matt's buying a subscription, um, streaming service, and he wants to pay 153 00:07:46,885 --> 00:07:49,135 monthly and he's using a Chase card. 154 00:07:49,465 --> 00:07:53,035 How does, what does Chase need to know about Matt and this 155 00:07:53,035 --> 00:07:56,395 product and this service to feel comfortable in improving that? 156 00:07:56,935 --> 00:08:00,835 You can spend years analyzing data and trying to figure that out. 157 00:08:00,835 --> 00:08:02,845 And you can get incremental lift for sure. 158 00:08:02,845 --> 00:08:04,435 But that's expensive, right? 159 00:08:04,705 --> 00:08:04,885 Yeah. 160 00:08:04,885 --> 00:08:08,365 Um, and what we've done is sort of built that platform in place. 161 00:08:08,700 --> 00:08:13,200 That uses AI and lots of data and fraud rule input and decline code 162 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:17,160 input from the issuing banks to figure out what the best, um, data 163 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:19,050 package to send to get that approval. 164 00:08:20,310 --> 00:08:25,260 So it sounds it, and this is why I, I, I, I think it's what we said right 165 00:08:25,260 --> 00:08:28,710 at the start, the sort of the, the hope for the best strategy, right? 166 00:08:28,710 --> 00:08:31,290 Because all of a sudden you've opened Pandora's Box. 167 00:08:31,350 --> 00:08:33,780 It's got really complicated in many ways. 168 00:08:34,315 --> 00:08:38,664 Um, at least for people like me that maybe don't know about your service or, or 169 00:08:38,934 --> 00:08:45,715 I'm using a different service, I'm like, actually, I've got enough trouble thinking 170 00:08:45,715 --> 00:08:47,725 about the changes to the meta algorithm. 171 00:08:48,205 --> 00:08:53,005 And now actually what I'm hearing you say is actually, you should really 172 00:08:53,005 --> 00:08:57,175 focus on this as well because this is affecting 10, 15% of your sales. 173 00:08:57,175 --> 00:08:57,475 Right? 174 00:08:57,475 --> 00:08:58,975 So, um. 175 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:04,720 It, it, it, it feels like it's kind of getting complicated quick. 176 00:09:04,990 --> 00:09:06,310 Um, if that makes sense. 177 00:09:06,699 --> 00:09:10,689 Um, I dunno if it is, I dunno if I'm maybe a little bit too 178 00:09:10,689 --> 00:09:12,579 afraid of, of, of the problem. 179 00:09:13,090 --> 00:09:17,740 Um, but I, I, I, am I the only one that sort of feels that way or is this the, a 180 00:09:17,740 --> 00:09:20,824 common thing that most people feel like when they're faced with this problem? 181 00:09:22,255 --> 00:09:26,155 Yeah, I would say, and, and I talked to lots of companies out there, I would 182 00:09:26,155 --> 00:09:32,245 say that there's a significant amount that don't un don't have enough insight 183 00:09:32,245 --> 00:09:34,675 to know that there's a problem, right? 184 00:09:34,675 --> 00:09:37,885 Or, or, um, and once they identify the problem, like how to fix 185 00:09:37,885 --> 00:09:39,235 it or solve it sort of thing. 186 00:09:39,235 --> 00:09:40,465 And, and I did not, right? 187 00:09:40,470 --> 00:09:40,819 Mm-hmm. 188 00:09:41,005 --> 00:09:44,905 Um, you know, running a very large sort of enterprise, I had no idea this 189 00:09:44,905 --> 00:09:49,765 hidden sort of issue that was going on and, and, um, you know, hired some. 190 00:09:50,365 --> 00:09:53,905 Um, people that can help me sort of understand what that 191 00:09:53,905 --> 00:09:57,535 is, but more importantly, how do I sort of solve this issue? 192 00:09:58,045 --> 00:09:59,725 And it was fairly significant. 193 00:09:59,755 --> 00:10:04,735 Um, uh, one company I was at, um, our, well, we used to use a metric 194 00:10:04,735 --> 00:10:06,175 called effective collection rate. 195 00:10:06,175 --> 00:10:06,205 Okay? 196 00:10:06,235 --> 00:10:10,945 So this is exclusive of the, um, voluntary return side of things, right? 197 00:10:11,245 --> 00:10:13,105 Customers that are on our platform. 198 00:10:14,050 --> 00:10:18,220 That are still active and signed up, how much of those dollars are we collecting 199 00:10:18,220 --> 00:10:19,930 versus what they're, what was owed? 200 00:10:19,930 --> 00:10:21,490 And we call that effective collection rate. 201 00:10:21,490 --> 00:10:21,670 Right. 202 00:10:21,670 --> 00:10:23,530 We were kind of low, mid sixties. 203 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:24,250 Oh, wow. 204 00:10:24,250 --> 00:10:24,490 Which is 205 00:10:24,730 --> 00:10:25,660 not very good. 206 00:10:25,780 --> 00:10:25,900 No. 207 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:30,760 Um, fast forward, having gone through this sort of payment analysis, 208 00:10:30,940 --> 00:10:35,950 resolving the issue, um, that was like 98, 90 9% once we've identified 209 00:10:35,950 --> 00:10:37,450 it and solved it sort of thing. 210 00:10:37,450 --> 00:10:37,630 Right. 211 00:10:37,630 --> 00:10:39,520 That is a significant gain. 212 00:10:40,075 --> 00:10:41,815 On a current customer base, right? 213 00:10:41,815 --> 00:10:42,745 No new marketing. 214 00:10:42,895 --> 00:10:42,985 Mm-hmm. 215 00:10:43,855 --> 00:10:48,895 Um, no new offers presented, just solving a payment problem, um, on the backend. 216 00:10:48,895 --> 00:10:50,815 So it, it can be super effective. 217 00:10:51,295 --> 00:10:57,625 Um, on average, our revolve customers improve their, uh, 218 00:10:57,625 --> 00:11:00,085 uh, approval rates by about 14%. 219 00:11:00,595 --> 00:11:03,360 Some, some businesses are higher, particularly those that are. 220 00:11:03,925 --> 00:11:08,155 Sort of in the digital goods or high risks, um, sort of spaces. 221 00:11:08,395 --> 00:11:08,665 Yeah. 222 00:11:08,814 --> 00:11:11,995 Um, lower for large enterprises that already have sort of 223 00:11:11,995 --> 00:11:13,855 robust systems in place. 224 00:11:14,214 --> 00:11:18,025 Um, but we've got one customer doing multi-billion dollars and they're 225 00:11:18,025 --> 00:11:23,035 getting 5.8% lift on their approvals. 226 00:11:23,965 --> 00:11:24,655 That's a lot of money. 227 00:11:24,655 --> 00:11:24,970 $10 228 00:11:24,970 --> 00:11:29,035 million a month of net new revenue by solving this type of problem. 229 00:11:29,035 --> 00:11:29,245 Right? 230 00:11:29,245 --> 00:11:29,305 Yeah. 231 00:11:29,305 --> 00:11:30,895 So it, it is impactful. 232 00:11:31,225 --> 00:11:35,485 Um, and I definitely encourage all of your ecommerce, um, folks to, you know, 233 00:11:35,485 --> 00:11:37,015 at least check it out and get informed. 234 00:11:37,795 --> 00:11:42,415 Well, I guess that this leads nicely to my next question, uh, Frank. 235 00:11:42,595 --> 00:11:43,105 Um. 236 00:11:44,500 --> 00:11:47,590 Before I, before I ask that question, lemme just take a little 237 00:11:47,590 --> 00:11:50,200 minute to mention about cohort. 238 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:53,830 Now, if you dunno what cohort is this is, it's the new version of cohort. 239 00:11:53,830 --> 00:11:55,570 Actually, you may have, if you're a long time listener. 240 00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:56,410 There was an old version. 241 00:11:56,410 --> 00:11:58,060 Now there's a new version of cohort. 242 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:02,265 Uh, cohort is where we have monthly, I. Get togethers on Zoom. 243 00:12:02,324 --> 00:12:05,084 So we just get together, shoot the breeze, talk about ecommerce, 244 00:12:05,084 --> 00:12:06,525 what's working, what's not working. 245 00:12:06,944 --> 00:12:11,685 Uh, we've got a cohort in the a NZ region or a NZ region, as I would 246 00:12:11,685 --> 00:12:15,974 like to say, uh, we've got a brand new UK cohort starting as well. 247 00:12:15,974 --> 00:12:17,324 So if you'd like to come join that. 248 00:12:17,505 --> 00:12:19,694 Um, like I say, it's free, it's pretty easy. 249 00:12:19,694 --> 00:12:20,354 We just go on Zoom. 250 00:12:20,354 --> 00:12:20,805 We'll just chat. 251 00:12:20,834 --> 00:12:21,405 Great to meet you. 252 00:12:21,405 --> 00:12:22,545 Great to talk about ecommerce. 253 00:12:22,545 --> 00:12:26,265 So if you wanna know more about that, head over to eCommerce podcast.net. 254 00:12:26,895 --> 00:12:29,925 Now, Frank, my, uh, question for you. 255 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:37,120 Is how, is there a difference between what I would call straight 256 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:42,820 ecommerce, right, and subscription recurring revenue with churn? 257 00:12:42,850 --> 00:12:46,330 Or is it it, it doesn't really matter actually whether you are 258 00:12:46,330 --> 00:12:48,940 straight ecommerce or whether you are doing subscription commerce. 259 00:12:49,540 --> 00:12:50,925 You've got the same problem. 260 00:12:52,495 --> 00:12:56,965 Yeah, anything that, what we call credential on file, right? 261 00:12:56,965 --> 00:13:01,285 Where you're having to store, um, a payment type or payment method. 262 00:13:01,525 --> 00:13:01,705 Yeah. 263 00:13:01,735 --> 00:13:03,895 Um, significant value there. 264 00:13:03,895 --> 00:13:08,035 Whether they're one-time payments or recurring payments, it doesn't matter. 265 00:13:08,035 --> 00:13:11,905 We all know there's a difference between retail approvals, right? 266 00:13:11,935 --> 00:13:15,985 You got your card, you're physically there, you're swiping it or tapping it. 267 00:13:16,420 --> 00:13:18,970 Those approval rates are significantly higher, although 268 00:13:18,970 --> 00:13:20,770 there is sort of declines there. 269 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:21,220 Yeah. 270 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:23,560 Um, it's much different than online, right? 271 00:13:23,560 --> 00:13:29,200 So anytime there's an online order is where we can effectively help, um, you 272 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:33,550 know, manage that integrity and, you know, create the highest approval rate possible. 273 00:13:34,870 --> 00:13:35,140 Tell you. 274 00:13:36,730 --> 00:13:39,790 So it's pretty similar then whether you are straight ecommerce or 275 00:13:39,790 --> 00:13:41,650 whether you are membership recurring. 276 00:13:42,550 --> 00:13:47,800 Where does things like, um, apple Pay and Google Pay, where do they impact this? 277 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:48,610 Do they make it better? 278 00:13:48,610 --> 00:13:49,510 Do they make it worse? 279 00:13:49,510 --> 00:13:51,070 Do they not really have any difference? 280 00:13:51,070 --> 00:13:54,670 Like if I've got, you know, a, a Shopify site and it's got, you know, 281 00:13:54,670 --> 00:13:58,120 pay by Apple, um, rather than putting your credit card details, which is 282 00:13:58,120 --> 00:13:59,560 obviously becoming more and more popular. 283 00:14:00,340 --> 00:14:02,380 Um, certainly for me 'cause I'm lazy, right? 284 00:14:03,580 --> 00:14:05,170 And so, um. 285 00:14:05,680 --> 00:14:07,000 Does that make a difference? 286 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:10,000 It's the same results. 287 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:12,460 I mean, if think about what a di a digital wallet is, right? 288 00:14:12,460 --> 00:14:15,070 You're just storing those credentials in that wallet. 289 00:14:15,490 --> 00:14:19,540 Um, and, and the digital wallets are, are significantly rising, right? 290 00:14:20,020 --> 00:14:20,080 Hmm. 291 00:14:20,275 --> 00:14:24,010 I, I saw a world pays a global payment report, uh, which came out 292 00:14:24,010 --> 00:14:27,370 this week, talked about the rise and the use of digital wallets. 293 00:14:27,700 --> 00:14:30,370 Um, but that's just effectively just a card that's stored 294 00:14:30,370 --> 00:14:31,360 there that's being used. 295 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:33,010 So whether you put your Chase card there. 296 00:14:33,385 --> 00:14:38,334 Um, you use your Apple Wallet or Apple Pay to sort of tap, um, I'm still 297 00:14:38,334 --> 00:14:40,824 taking that Chase issuing card mm-hmm. 298 00:14:41,305 --> 00:14:45,115 Running that, um, account through, you know, a processor and such. 299 00:14:45,115 --> 00:14:47,574 So the rules don't change that or help that in any way. 300 00:14:48,385 --> 00:14:50,665 So they, I, which, that surprised me a little bit because 301 00:14:50,665 --> 00:14:54,475 obviously with um, uh, apple Pay. 302 00:14:55,525 --> 00:14:57,475 There's the whole biometric thing isn't there? 303 00:14:57,475 --> 00:15:01,315 You've gotta do your face ID or scan your thumbprint for Apple to go, 304 00:15:01,315 --> 00:15:03,145 yes, this can actually be taken. 305 00:15:03,145 --> 00:15:06,325 There's sort of, I mean, going back to your original comment about trust, 306 00:15:07,315 --> 00:15:11,305 there's that where I would've thought there was more trust in the system 307 00:15:11,305 --> 00:15:14,545 by doing that versus just putting in a random credit card number. 308 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:19,090 Yeah, the fraudsters know that they can get the cred, the credit 309 00:15:19,090 --> 00:15:22,720 card number and the expiration date and even the CVV in some cases. 310 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:23,080 Right. 311 00:15:23,590 --> 00:15:23,620 Mm. 312 00:15:23,770 --> 00:15:25,240 Load that into an Apple wallet. 313 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:27,040 That doesn't mean it's an auto approval. 314 00:15:27,045 --> 00:15:27,520 Right, right. 315 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:29,320 I still, Matt's credentials. 316 00:15:29,770 --> 00:15:31,960 I take a photo of your card without you looking. 317 00:15:32,620 --> 00:15:37,000 I save that in my Apple wallet, um, and then I, you know, fly somewhere 318 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:38,320 else and try to buy a product. 319 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:40,780 I mean, that's still, you know, a fraudulent order 320 00:15:40,780 --> 00:15:42,460 that the bank wants to, um, 321 00:15:42,460 --> 00:15:42,940 to find out. 322 00:15:42,940 --> 00:15:43,360 Yeah. 323 00:15:44,095 --> 00:15:49,075 I didn't even think of that as a, as I didn't, wouldn't have entered my mind. 324 00:15:49,135 --> 00:15:51,715 Uh, but now I've got a new hobby for when I go on holiday. 325 00:15:53,935 --> 00:15:55,705 Let photograph as many cards as we'd like. 326 00:15:56,365 --> 00:16:00,565 So, uh, what you are talking about then, Frank, obviously you, you've got your 327 00:16:00,565 --> 00:16:05,065 own technology, um, which I, you know, is, is, is, is I'm sure is wonderful. 328 00:16:05,065 --> 00:16:06,055 I don't personally use it. 329 00:16:06,055 --> 00:16:07,945 I, but I not out of. 330 00:16:08,340 --> 00:16:11,280 Choice is just 'cause I've, I've really just found out about it recently, but, so, 331 00:16:11,850 --> 00:16:14,280 um, you've got your technology out there. 332 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:17,460 What other options do we have for our e-com businesses? 333 00:16:17,460 --> 00:16:20,280 What, let's take, um, let's do this in chunks. 334 00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:21,870 Let's talk about SMEs. 335 00:16:21,870 --> 00:16:25,320 Let's talk about a guy who's running e-com business turning over half 336 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:27,000 a million a year, maybe a million. 337 00:16:27,420 --> 00:16:28,740 Um, what can they do? 338 00:16:28,740 --> 00:16:34,410 Because obviously they've not got the budgets to go and employ the, uh, the, 339 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:37,170 uh, you know, very clever people, which you employed when you're Experian. 340 00:16:37,530 --> 00:16:37,950 Um. 341 00:16:38,305 --> 00:16:39,055 So what? 342 00:16:39,055 --> 00:16:39,895 What's good for them? 343 00:16:39,895 --> 00:16:42,115 Do they go to companies like yours do? 344 00:16:42,175 --> 00:16:44,275 Are there other things that they should think about first? 345 00:16:45,505 --> 00:16:51,055 Yeah, and that's effectively what we've built with Revolve is if you think about 346 00:16:51,205 --> 00:16:56,545 us, we're sort of this payments platform that does orchestration optimization. 347 00:16:56,545 --> 00:17:00,475 We're connected to all of the major payment processors out there. 348 00:17:00,895 --> 00:17:04,945 Um, but we also bring a, a wealth of industry knowledge that's kind 349 00:17:04,945 --> 00:17:06,310 of built in that platform, right? 350 00:17:06,310 --> 00:17:06,660 Mm-hmm. 351 00:17:06,740 --> 00:17:11,244 So the, the whole goal with Revolve was to kind of replace those deep payment 352 00:17:11,815 --> 00:17:16,615 experts that you had to hire, um, and, you know, build it within a platform. 353 00:17:17,035 --> 00:17:20,815 Um, so that, um, certainly large enterprises benefit, right? 354 00:17:20,815 --> 00:17:24,925 We, we have a lot of those types of customers, um, but really make 355 00:17:24,925 --> 00:17:28,945 it available for those SMBs and those mid-market type of companies, 356 00:17:28,945 --> 00:17:30,265 which is why we built a lot of. 357 00:17:30,835 --> 00:17:35,185 Plugins to like Salesforce, commerce Cloud, a lot of those ecommerce platforms 358 00:17:35,185 --> 00:17:39,865 that are out out there, our Shopify plugin is and worked on, gonna be launched soon. 359 00:17:40,405 --> 00:17:44,035 Um, but that allows you to sort of utilize, revolve with just a 360 00:17:44,035 --> 00:17:45,985 selection in your configuration. 361 00:17:46,225 --> 00:17:50,965 Mm. And then start processing and, uh, the level of sort of analytics 362 00:17:50,965 --> 00:17:54,235 we ha we have behind all the metrics that we're talking about. 363 00:17:54,235 --> 00:17:54,445 Right. 364 00:17:54,445 --> 00:17:55,825 To see how effective. 365 00:17:56,229 --> 00:17:59,530 Um, your businesses and managing those, uh, those sort of 366 00:17:59,530 --> 00:18:01,209 declines and that sort of thing. 367 00:18:01,570 --> 00:18:04,870 Um, but also get a lot of insight to what others may be doing in 368 00:18:04,870 --> 00:18:06,699 other industries like you as well. 369 00:18:07,120 --> 00:18:08,350 Yeah, no, that's fair. 370 00:18:08,649 --> 00:18:11,860 So you, you, uh, you actually cater to all markets, don't you? 371 00:18:11,860 --> 00:18:14,560 Then it's, it doesn't matter how big or small you are, it's just gonna, 372 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:19,240 it's gonna be helpful to get, to get somebody like you involved to help with. 373 00:18:19,930 --> 00:18:24,190 The declines or is it a case of, I mean, I, I'm, I'm actually 374 00:18:24,190 --> 00:18:25,450 thinking out loud here, Frank. 375 00:18:25,450 --> 00:18:29,919 I, what I can't tell you may be embarrassingly slow actually. 376 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:32,770 Um, I'm sure I could figure it out in the next 20 minutes if 377 00:18:32,770 --> 00:18:34,659 I was really inclined to do so. 378 00:18:35,169 --> 00:18:39,820 I can't tell you off the top of my head on our e-comm sites, what our. 379 00:18:40,899 --> 00:18:42,850 Decline rate is for payments. 380 00:18:42,850 --> 00:18:45,340 And actually, I think I probably, I'm not the only one, but I 381 00:18:45,340 --> 00:18:47,439 probably should not, I mean, you're laughing at me, which is fair play. 382 00:18:47,439 --> 00:18:50,800 You know, I think I probably should know this, um, number. 383 00:18:51,699 --> 00:18:52,240 Um. 384 00:18:54,070 --> 00:18:55,270 What's the tipping point? 385 00:18:55,389 --> 00:18:59,530 So let's say I have for whatever reason, a, a low decline, right? 386 00:18:59,770 --> 00:19:01,060 Uh, like two, 3%. 387 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:03,310 Should I, should I go? 388 00:19:03,310 --> 00:19:05,170 Well, okay, I'm okay with that. 389 00:19:05,170 --> 00:19:06,610 That's kind of it is what it is. 390 00:19:06,730 --> 00:19:10,690 Um, at, at what point on that percentage scale is the tipping point? 391 00:19:12,355 --> 00:19:16,014 I think if you are in, um, and it, it all depends on the type 392 00:19:16,014 --> 00:19:17,965 of business that it is, right? 393 00:19:17,965 --> 00:19:20,665 So it, it'll vary significantly. 394 00:19:20,875 --> 00:19:20,995 Mm-hmm. 395 00:19:21,355 --> 00:19:27,655 Um, super high risk businesses with a 20% decline rate is probably about 396 00:19:27,655 --> 00:19:33,685 normal super low risk businesses with a 15 to 10% is probably about normal, 397 00:19:33,685 --> 00:19:35,425 but is there still opportunity there? 398 00:19:35,470 --> 00:19:41,710 The, the key is to eliminate the, the false declines, right? 399 00:19:41,710 --> 00:19:43,540 You want the real declines are okay. 400 00:19:43,750 --> 00:19:47,980 Whether that's, you know, uh, a fraud fraudulent order, perhaps, 401 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:50,290 um, an insufficient funds. 402 00:19:50,290 --> 00:19:52,090 I mean, there's not much you can do with that, right? 403 00:19:52,090 --> 00:19:54,220 If they've maxed out their card or something like that. 404 00:19:55,060 --> 00:20:00,190 Um, but there, there's usually always an opportunity, even if your, uh, 405 00:20:00,190 --> 00:20:01,510 approval rates are fairly decent. 406 00:20:01,510 --> 00:20:04,000 But I, I do encourage you to know what your approval rates are. 407 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:04,210 Right. 408 00:20:04,210 --> 00:20:04,270 So, 409 00:20:04,754 --> 00:20:05,045 yeah. 410 00:20:05,050 --> 00:20:05,350 Yeah. 411 00:20:05,350 --> 00:20:06,310 I, I'm gonna find out. 412 00:20:06,310 --> 00:20:06,370 Yeah. 413 00:20:06,370 --> 00:20:07,060 I was laughing. 414 00:20:07,060 --> 00:20:09,550 Not at you, but that is very common. 415 00:20:09,790 --> 00:20:10,000 Mm-hmm. 416 00:20:10,060 --> 00:20:13,300 Um, we, I've gone into large companies, you know, talking to heads of 417 00:20:13,300 --> 00:20:17,590 ecommerce, and I'm like, what, what's your effective, um, approval rate? 418 00:20:17,590 --> 00:20:19,300 Or how much do you pay for processing? 419 00:20:19,300 --> 00:20:20,710 And I get the, I don't know. 420 00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:23,230 But I'll look into it, you know, sort of thing. 421 00:20:23,230 --> 00:20:23,380 Yeah. 422 00:20:23,380 --> 00:20:25,480 And those things should matter to you, right? 423 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:27,100 As you have, and 424 00:20:27,100 --> 00:20:31,075 it's interesting that they, um, uh, that you say that because. 425 00:20:32,950 --> 00:20:33,520 They should. 426 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:36,400 And I, I'm, listen, I'm talking to you now going, I should really know 427 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:39,670 these numbers and, and you know, I coach people for crying out loud. 428 00:20:39,670 --> 00:20:43,120 I, I, I partner with other e-comm businesses in some, so I, I should 429 00:20:43,120 --> 00:20:46,240 probably know these things and in the back of my head I do. 430 00:20:46,450 --> 00:20:46,870 Right. 431 00:20:47,410 --> 00:20:49,930 But I, I think I'm probably a bit like. 432 00:20:50,430 --> 00:20:54,090 We mentioned before we started recording that you went to Sub 433 00:20:54,090 --> 00:20:55,830 Sumit last year I was at Sub Submit. 434 00:20:55,830 --> 00:20:56,580 You're going this year? 435 00:20:56,580 --> 00:20:57,210 I'm going this year. 436 00:20:57,690 --> 00:20:59,940 Um, so if you're gonna sub Sumit, by the way, dear listener, come 437 00:20:59,940 --> 00:21:01,320 say how's, it's both me and Frank. 438 00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:01,950 We'd love to meet you. 439 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:02,970 Um, 440 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:09,415 and I'm sort of, I. I'm aware that you've, you've, you've created this, 441 00:21:09,504 --> 00:21:14,155 um, this dichotomy between involuntary churn and voluntary churn, right? 442 00:21:14,485 --> 00:21:18,625 And so voluntary churn is things that, that I guess I can 443 00:21:18,625 --> 00:21:20,305 control on my website, right? 444 00:21:20,305 --> 00:21:24,175 So, um, I can look at the value of the offering. 445 00:21:24,175 --> 00:21:25,555 I can look at those kind of things. 446 00:21:25,555 --> 00:21:28,675 And, and, and, you know, this is where the customer is voluntarily 447 00:21:28,675 --> 00:21:30,535 choosing to stop its subscription. 448 00:21:31,014 --> 00:21:31,405 Um. 449 00:21:31,735 --> 00:21:35,064 I can look at the reasons why and the psychology and the offer and the 450 00:21:35,064 --> 00:21:37,405 value and all that sort of stuff, and try and work on that, which they 451 00:21:37,405 --> 00:21:39,024 cover really well at Subs Summit. 452 00:21:39,475 --> 00:21:39,655 Yeah. 453 00:21:39,715 --> 00:21:42,024 And you mentioned involuntary churn is. 454 00:21:42,565 --> 00:21:46,885 Is sort of a less identified problem and a less talked about problem. 455 00:21:47,395 --> 00:21:52,525 And I guess I'm thinking that most ecommerce entrepreneurs like me 456 00:21:53,095 --> 00:21:57,505 are very aware of the voluntary, the, the voluntary things, right? 457 00:21:57,505 --> 00:21:58,855 Why people aren't buying. 458 00:21:58,855 --> 00:22:01,525 We focus on that optimization rates and all that sort of stuff. 459 00:22:02,125 --> 00:22:03,685 We rarely think about. 460 00:22:03,700 --> 00:22:07,210 And maybe everyone listening to the show shows going, Matt, shut up. 461 00:22:07,210 --> 00:22:08,140 It's just you mate. 462 00:22:08,350 --> 00:22:13,480 Um, but I, I don't think it would be, but we, we rarely look at these involuntary 463 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:15,100 things and I wonder why that is. 464 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:18,250 I think, yeah. 465 00:22:18,250 --> 00:22:19,210 I mean, it's great, right? 466 00:22:19,210 --> 00:22:22,870 There's a lot of focus on that and, um, you know, uh, 467 00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:24,340 like you talked about, right? 468 00:22:24,340 --> 00:22:25,750 Is the, is the value there? 469 00:22:25,750 --> 00:22:25,840 Mm-hmm. 470 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:29,680 What's the onboarding experience like, is, you know, um. 471 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:36,085 I, I, I was in the same, um, had the same problem for years, right? 472 00:22:36,085 --> 00:22:37,945 Where that's where my focus was. 473 00:22:38,455 --> 00:22:42,865 Um, I used to think about payment declines or failures is just all 474 00:22:42,865 --> 00:22:47,905 insufficient funds and, you know, the, those customers just naturally churn out. 475 00:22:47,905 --> 00:22:52,225 You know, it is what it is, was kind of my common theme to dealing with that. 476 00:22:52,765 --> 00:22:52,855 Yeah. 477 00:22:54,145 --> 00:22:59,245 And, but there, there's, there's a significant amount of customer 478 00:22:59,245 --> 00:23:01,135 service potential, right? 479 00:23:01,135 --> 00:23:04,405 Because if you turn someone out and they get a notification that they 480 00:23:04,405 --> 00:23:07,465 can no longer use your product, but yet they want to use their product, 481 00:23:07,465 --> 00:23:09,685 that's a very frustrating thing, right? 482 00:23:09,685 --> 00:23:09,985 Yeah. 483 00:23:10,375 --> 00:23:11,335 Um, for them. 484 00:23:11,635 --> 00:23:15,865 Um, so we've seen our customers, um, success, success metrics go up. 485 00:23:15,925 --> 00:23:16,015 Mm-hmm. 486 00:23:16,255 --> 00:23:18,475 Um, also, um, in, in dealing with this, right? 487 00:23:18,475 --> 00:23:22,825 So there's a lot of other, um, adjacent sort of metrics that can be. 488 00:23:23,425 --> 00:23:27,355 Um, enhanced with, you know, solving these sort of payment related, 489 00:23:27,445 --> 00:23:29,035 um, issues that are going on. 490 00:23:29,335 --> 00:23:31,225 Yeah, that's interesting, isn't it? 491 00:23:31,225 --> 00:23:35,725 Because you're, I dunno if you've, um, come across the sub platform, um, 492 00:23:36,235 --> 00:23:40,075 great platform there again, they were at, uh, sub Summit, um, last year. 493 00:23:40,495 --> 00:23:42,720 Uh, great guys that worked there, you know, and. 494 00:23:44,260 --> 00:23:50,260 They have just released a, a, a study, their sub comprehensive 2025 study saying 495 00:23:50,260 --> 00:23:54,370 the subscription price has virtually no correlation with churn rates. 496 00:23:55,030 --> 00:23:58,479 Um, the correlation coefficient of average order value from churn 497 00:23:58,479 --> 00:24:00,219 rate is actually insignificant. 498 00:24:00,219 --> 00:24:03,745 What truly drives retention on the involuntary side, according to 499 00:24:03,850 --> 00:24:07,570 the research, is perceived value, experience, and product relevance. 500 00:24:07,570 --> 00:24:13,570 And I'm guessing when it comes to the involuntary issues like payment issues, I. 501 00:24:14,110 --> 00:24:17,050 What you are doing is you are damaging, I suppose, the customer 502 00:24:17,050 --> 00:24:18,610 experience out of those three things. 503 00:24:18,610 --> 00:24:20,020 That's what you are hitting, isn't it? 504 00:24:20,020 --> 00:24:25,240 It's like, it's a really, really negative customer experience and I, I'm sure 505 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:28,360 there's some interest in psychology around this because I, I know that when 506 00:24:28,360 --> 00:24:30,160 I go to a website, it declines my card. 507 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:31,300 I'm like, what's wrong with you? 508 00:24:31,300 --> 00:24:32,710 I know there's money on the card. 509 00:24:32,980 --> 00:24:35,440 I'm not blaming me, I'm not blaming the bank. 510 00:24:35,470 --> 00:24:39,310 I'm blaming your website for some bizarre reason, even though I 511 00:24:39,310 --> 00:24:41,110 understand the technology behind it. 512 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:46,180 Well, and, and there's a lot, so banks are super concerned about this, right? 513 00:24:46,210 --> 00:24:48,130 'cause there, there's a term called top of wallet. 514 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:48,550 Mm-hmm. 515 00:24:48,550 --> 00:24:49,660 And they know what happens. 516 00:24:49,660 --> 00:24:54,550 And I was just in New York, um, uh, in, in January, which I don't encourage 517 00:24:54,550 --> 00:24:55,660 everybody to go to New York and. 518 00:24:58,705 --> 00:24:59,545 I was there. 519 00:24:59,635 --> 00:25:05,215 I stopped to buy a bottle of water at a bodega, swipe my Chase card, tapped it. 520 00:25:05,220 --> 00:25:06,295 It got declined. 521 00:25:06,595 --> 00:25:08,725 Uh, my wife and I share the same account, right? 522 00:25:08,725 --> 00:25:08,815 Mm-hmm. 523 00:25:08,815 --> 00:25:11,935 So she's getting notifications on her phone going, are you purchasing 524 00:25:11,935 --> 00:25:13,645 this from some random name? 525 00:25:14,274 --> 00:25:15,475 And she's declining it. 526 00:25:15,475 --> 00:25:17,245 Like, Nope, not me, not me, sort of thing. 527 00:25:17,785 --> 00:25:18,805 So ultimately you declined. 528 00:25:18,805 --> 00:25:19,555 What did I do? 529 00:25:19,705 --> 00:25:21,595 I put that in the middle of my wallet. 530 00:25:21,595 --> 00:25:22,975 I took out my wells card. 531 00:25:23,740 --> 00:25:27,520 It approved and that's, that's now still on the top of my wallet. 532 00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:29,200 Like it's literally right here. 533 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:29,530 Right. 534 00:25:31,360 --> 00:25:32,110 It's fascinating. 535 00:25:32,230 --> 00:25:33,160 There's a big concern 536 00:25:33,220 --> 00:25:37,000 and yes, I was upset that I was being declined 'cause it was me. 537 00:25:37,060 --> 00:25:37,660 It's, you know. 538 00:25:37,810 --> 00:25:37,900 Mm-hmm. 539 00:25:38,140 --> 00:25:39,280 Simple bottle of water. 540 00:25:40,765 --> 00:25:41,065 Yeah. 541 00:25:41,065 --> 00:25:41,725 That's fascinating. 542 00:25:42,175 --> 00:25:46,345 And I, I, I'm, I'm, I'm, I, I mean, I, I don't carry a wallet anymore, 543 00:25:46,345 --> 00:25:47,485 Frank, I have to be honest with you. 544 00:25:47,485 --> 00:25:50,275 But you can order the cards in your digital wallet. 545 00:25:50,365 --> 00:25:51,595 Yeah, same thing, right? 546 00:25:51,835 --> 00:25:52,045 Yeah. 547 00:25:52,075 --> 00:25:52,945 Um, top of wallet. 548 00:25:52,945 --> 00:25:56,125 It's like, uh, the, the cards at the bottom of my list. 549 00:25:56,125 --> 00:25:57,955 I don't even know what me, just check. 550 00:25:57,955 --> 00:26:00,780 Actually, I'm gonna open up, uh, apple Pay. 551 00:26:02,185 --> 00:26:06,294 So my Monzo card is definitely at the top, right at the bottom, is now my 552 00:26:06,294 --> 00:26:08,935 American Express, uh, which I rarely use. 553 00:26:08,935 --> 00:26:11,395 You know, I use it a 10th of what I used to use it as. 554 00:26:12,024 --> 00:26:14,304 Um, for whatever reason. 555 00:26:14,304 --> 00:26:18,294 And I, I find this quite, uh, quite fascinating because American 556 00:26:18,294 --> 00:26:20,784 Express is making a lot less money out of me these days. 557 00:26:20,784 --> 00:26:22,290 I'm surprised they've not called me and gone. 558 00:26:22,314 --> 00:26:23,155 Is everything okay? 559 00:26:23,155 --> 00:26:24,955 You know, are we, are we still friends? 560 00:26:25,524 --> 00:26:25,945 Yeah. 561 00:26:26,965 --> 00:26:28,195 It's, it, it's a real issue. 562 00:26:28,195 --> 00:26:31,435 I had a, um, I won't name the subscription that I had. 563 00:26:32,125 --> 00:26:32,635 Um. 564 00:26:33,325 --> 00:26:36,024 And I had a card that was stored there with them, you know, 565 00:26:36,024 --> 00:26:37,615 loved the service subscription. 566 00:26:37,615 --> 00:26:41,155 But I got a note, a nasty note saying your service is being stopped 567 00:26:41,155 --> 00:26:43,135 because the card is declined. 568 00:26:43,135 --> 00:26:45,595 And it was just the expiration date, right? 569 00:26:45,595 --> 00:26:45,835 Yeah. 570 00:26:46,165 --> 00:26:48,595 Which told me as a payments person, that they're not 571 00:26:48,595 --> 00:26:50,064 subscribing to the account update. 572 00:26:50,095 --> 00:26:50,365 Right? 573 00:26:50,365 --> 00:26:51,386 Which would've updated that. 574 00:26:52,540 --> 00:26:56,004 So with their credential on file order, um. 575 00:26:57,010 --> 00:27:00,190 I didn't have time, you know, to sort of go and update and stuff like 576 00:27:00,190 --> 00:27:02,110 that, so I used another service. 577 00:27:02,110 --> 00:27:02,379 Right. 578 00:27:02,830 --> 00:27:03,490 Mm. Sort of thing. 579 00:27:03,909 --> 00:27:07,149 Um, and that, that's a real sort of issue for a lot of merchants out there. 580 00:27:07,149 --> 00:27:10,300 So, um, there's, there's a lot of different things that you can do. 581 00:27:10,300 --> 00:27:15,850 I. As a business, as an ecommerce business to ensure that, um, all of those 582 00:27:16,090 --> 00:27:20,260 customers that you have with payment methods, um, you know, are you updating 583 00:27:20,260 --> 00:27:21,970 those accounts on a regular basis? 584 00:27:21,970 --> 00:27:24,910 Are you using some level of optimization to deal with these 585 00:27:24,910 --> 00:27:27,340 sort of decline issues out there? 586 00:27:27,340 --> 00:27:28,570 Is it cost effective? 587 00:27:28,570 --> 00:27:31,690 You know, there's a lot of front end fraud strategy that you want to do as an 588 00:27:31,690 --> 00:27:35,740 ecommerce organization that, you know, compliments sort of what we do, chargeback 589 00:27:35,740 --> 00:27:37,360 management, all of that sort of stuff. 590 00:27:38,020 --> 00:27:42,340 But that, that whole view around managing those payments needs to be comprehensive. 591 00:27:42,340 --> 00:27:43,629 That would be my first advice. 592 00:27:44,590 --> 00:27:45,100 Yeah. 593 00:27:45,100 --> 00:27:46,719 I mean, yes. 594 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:49,120 There's no other way to, to sort of talk about it really. 595 00:27:49,185 --> 00:27:55,389 I, I think you're totally right and I, I, it's such a critical part of our business. 596 00:27:55,389 --> 00:27:58,750 I mean, fundamentally, I have to take the money off you before I be, 597 00:27:58,929 --> 00:28:00,760 you know, for the sale to occur. 598 00:28:01,510 --> 00:28:06,310 Um, and so it, it's such an important, I just as a random curiosity, I, I, as you 599 00:28:06,310 --> 00:28:11,395 were talking there, I. Um, every credit card I've got, every debit card I've got 600 00:28:11,395 --> 00:28:13,135 has got an expiration date on it, right? 601 00:28:13,135 --> 00:28:18,955 It expires at, in one year, two years, three years or whatever, which in some 602 00:28:18,955 --> 00:28:21,595 respects never really made sense to me. 603 00:28:21,595 --> 00:28:25,135 And I, I wonder if do, are we gonna keep them, do you think? 604 00:28:25,135 --> 00:28:25,945 Are we gonna get rid of them? 605 00:28:25,945 --> 00:28:29,545 Do they serve a purpose other than, you know, I get a new card every three years. 606 00:28:29,545 --> 00:28:34,015 I'm, I'm, they seem a little bit pointless to me, but maybe I'm missing something. 607 00:28:35,515 --> 00:28:36,715 That's a really good question. 608 00:28:36,715 --> 00:28:41,005 I've never really thought about it in that way and we're, we're not an issuer, right? 609 00:28:41,005 --> 00:28:44,905 So I can't speak to sort of why Chase is still requiring it. 610 00:28:45,415 --> 00:28:47,395 Um, I think the Apple card, right? 611 00:28:47,395 --> 00:28:49,525 Doesn't that not have an expiration date now? 612 00:28:49,525 --> 00:28:51,235 I think they may be the only card out there. 613 00:28:51,235 --> 00:28:52,495 There's, could be others. 614 00:28:52,495 --> 00:28:53,095 I, I don't know. 615 00:28:53,095 --> 00:28:54,235 And, um. 616 00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:57,460 So I agree with you though, there's probably not a tremendous amount of 617 00:28:57,460 --> 00:29:01,120 value, particularly since all of the issuers are doing account updates, right? 618 00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:02,290 Mm-hmm. 619 00:29:02,291 --> 00:29:03,340 Um, yeah. 620 00:29:03,340 --> 00:29:07,210 And, and most of the card usage is, um, e-comm related, right? 621 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:07,660 Yeah. 622 00:29:07,870 --> 00:29:11,140 So probably less reason why to keep it going forward, but that, 623 00:29:11,140 --> 00:29:12,400 that's a great question for them. 624 00:29:12,730 --> 00:29:15,670 Well, it's how you, how do you, if you're, if I'm a credit card issue, I'm like, 625 00:29:15,670 --> 00:29:18,880 well, how do I stop somebody putting a new credit card in when this one expires? 626 00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:20,500 Or I'll just take the expiry date off. 627 00:29:20,845 --> 00:29:25,315 Uh, but then I, like I say, it's just a random thought that occurred into my head. 628 00:29:25,855 --> 00:29:26,725 Yeah, good question. 629 00:29:26,905 --> 00:29:30,355 Uh, if I'm honest with you, um, Frank, whilst we're here, 630 00:29:30,355 --> 00:29:31,615 let me, let me do this thing. 631 00:29:31,615 --> 00:29:35,965 Well, whilst I remember I've, I, I like to ask my guests for a question, right. 632 00:29:36,265 --> 00:29:37,135 And, uh. 633 00:29:37,930 --> 00:29:39,670 This is where you're gonna ask me a question. 634 00:29:39,670 --> 00:29:42,490 I'm gonna take that question and I'll answer it on social media. 635 00:29:42,490 --> 00:29:44,800 So if you're listening to the show and wanna know how I'm gonna answer for 636 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:47,890 Frank's question, or in fact any other question I've been asked from my past 637 00:29:47,890 --> 00:29:51,040 guests, uh, come follow me on LinkedIn, uh, connect with me on LinkedIn. 638 00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:53,650 Even don't, just follow me, connect, say, how's it, uh, you 639 00:29:53,650 --> 00:29:54,710 can find me at Matt Edmundson. 640 00:29:54,730 --> 00:29:57,610 So, Frank, what is your question for me? 641 00:29:58,629 --> 00:29:59,680 What's your approval rate? 642 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:03,250 You know what? 643 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:05,020 I should have seen that one come in. 644 00:30:05,020 --> 00:30:05,830 What's wrong with me? 645 00:30:08,590 --> 00:30:08,980 Brilliant. 646 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:13,480 If you wanna know, my approval rate is come find me on LinkedIn and I will tell 647 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:16,930 you exactly what we've talked about. 648 00:30:16,930 --> 00:30:19,840 Then the um, false declines. 649 00:30:20,455 --> 00:30:23,155 Frank, what are some of the things that we should be thinking 650 00:30:23,155 --> 00:30:25,105 about around real declines? 651 00:30:25,105 --> 00:30:29,335 Because I know for a lot of merchants, um, chargebacks are an issue. 652 00:30:29,335 --> 00:30:33,595 For me, it's always, I remember the first time we sent an order out to somebody 653 00:30:33,595 --> 00:30:38,035 and we found out it was a fraud, and I was just, I was just really angry. 654 00:30:38,035 --> 00:30:41,575 I, the injustice of it, not the money, but just how dare they, you know, 655 00:30:42,235 --> 00:30:47,245 um, what, what sort of things can we do on that side of the equation? 656 00:30:47,635 --> 00:30:48,235 Yeah, great. 657 00:30:48,235 --> 00:30:49,045 Great question. 658 00:30:49,075 --> 00:30:55,195 Um, I I, I, I always encourage our, um, merchants or customers, which 659 00:30:55,195 --> 00:31:00,055 are ecommerce businesses to have, uh, multiple payment methods, right? 660 00:31:00,055 --> 00:31:01,675 Because the, you, you're gonna have a problem. 661 00:31:01,705 --> 00:31:01,795 Mm-hmm. 662 00:31:01,945 --> 00:31:03,985 You're gonna max the card or something, but you still want to 663 00:31:03,985 --> 00:31:05,995 keep the service in some sort of way. 664 00:31:05,995 --> 00:31:06,085 Mm-hmm. 665 00:31:06,115 --> 00:31:08,905 Or the expiration date issue comes up. 666 00:31:09,190 --> 00:31:12,700 To have a secondary form of payment, that's always helpful, right? 667 00:31:13,180 --> 00:31:17,110 Um, I encourage them to make that voluntary with their customer base. 668 00:31:17,410 --> 00:31:21,460 Um, but that is something that can be super effective, having other 669 00:31:21,460 --> 00:31:23,470 forms of payment methods, right? 670 00:31:23,475 --> 00:31:23,535 Mm-hmm. 671 00:31:23,615 --> 00:31:25,750 Debit is a great solution. 672 00:31:26,110 --> 00:31:30,550 Um, you know, other options out there, some of the, uh, BNPL 673 00:31:30,550 --> 00:31:32,980 stuff, um, as, as an option, right? 674 00:31:32,980 --> 00:31:37,510 Because that, that can help, um, you know, keep that customer retention going. 675 00:31:38,485 --> 00:31:40,465 So look at many ways like that. 676 00:31:41,155 --> 00:31:42,895 Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. 677 00:31:43,555 --> 00:31:44,365 Makes a lot of sense. 678 00:31:44,365 --> 00:31:45,415 Have multiple methods. 679 00:31:45,415 --> 00:31:49,195 'cause I, I, again, I just from experience, I, I can tell you if a 680 00:31:49,195 --> 00:31:53,995 credit card doesn't work, I'll just use PayPal, you know, or, um, whatever, 681 00:31:54,085 --> 00:31:55,585 you know, it makes sense for us. 682 00:31:55,855 --> 00:31:58,975 I appreciate how we do it in the UK is different how you do it in the States. 683 00:31:59,455 --> 00:32:03,870 Um, slightly in, in some respects, but, um, I. 684 00:32:06,055 --> 00:32:07,254 I'm just thinking on our websites. 685 00:32:07,254 --> 00:32:10,075 We definitely have, I, I do know we have multiple payment methods. 686 00:32:11,545 --> 00:32:12,115 I'm gonna check. 687 00:32:12,565 --> 00:32:14,305 Yeah, and we always include those. 688 00:32:14,575 --> 00:32:15,685 It's really interesting actually. 689 00:32:15,685 --> 00:32:18,446 I dunno if you've seen this in the States as much as we see it. 690 00:32:18,805 --> 00:32:20,095 I've seen it here. 691 00:32:20,875 --> 00:32:26,095 Um, but the rise of people or companies like Klarna, where you'll go onto the 692 00:32:26,095 --> 00:32:30,595 site and instead of paying a hundred bucks, I can go and sign up to like four 693 00:32:30,595 --> 00:32:35,935 payments of 25 bucks, and Klarna charged me a percentage fee to, to offer this. 694 00:32:35,935 --> 00:32:38,245 But it, it helps with conversion with clients. 695 00:32:38,815 --> 00:32:39,175 Um. 696 00:32:39,834 --> 00:32:41,365 So obviously then Klarna paid me. 697 00:32:41,605 --> 00:32:43,254 This just another form of method. 698 00:32:43,254 --> 00:32:46,584 It, I make slightly less money, but it, you know, it, does it 699 00:32:46,584 --> 00:32:47,544 increase conversion enough? 700 00:32:48,175 --> 00:32:50,635 Um, I, I do you have those in the states? 701 00:32:50,635 --> 00:32:54,355 I mean, I'm assuming you do, I'm assuming we rob the idea from, from our American 702 00:32:54,355 --> 00:32:55,764 cousins, which is normally what we do. 703 00:32:56,215 --> 00:33:01,165 Um, how do they, how have they impacted, I guess, what you guys do? 704 00:33:02,890 --> 00:33:06,745 Uh, I mean, they still, um, utilize sort of credit rails 705 00:33:06,745 --> 00:33:08,545 for, um, some of their products. 706 00:33:08,545 --> 00:33:08,875 Right. 707 00:33:08,875 --> 00:33:11,215 So it doesn't really sort of affect us anyway. 708 00:33:11,215 --> 00:33:14,365 And, and I'm a big proponent of having multiple payment 709 00:33:14,365 --> 00:33:15,865 methods out there, even mm-hmm. 710 00:33:16,105 --> 00:33:18,115 It something that doesn't sort of run through our rails. 711 00:33:18,115 --> 00:33:20,605 I think it's an effective customer strategy and, um, 712 00:33:21,325 --> 00:33:22,825 I use them as a consumer. 713 00:33:23,185 --> 00:33:23,275 Mm-hmm. 714 00:33:24,895 --> 00:33:28,945 Signed up for, um, uh, my son's in club basketball. 715 00:33:29,590 --> 00:33:31,270 Which is very expensive, right. 716 00:33:31,270 --> 00:33:34,510 And I'm like, oh, I can spread this stuff out for four months 717 00:33:34,510 --> 00:33:36,100 instead of it sort of a lump sum. 718 00:33:36,100 --> 00:33:36,970 So it was fantastic. 719 00:33:36,970 --> 00:33:37,360 I loved it. 720 00:33:37,900 --> 00:33:38,380 Yeah. 721 00:33:38,830 --> 00:33:39,190 Yeah. 722 00:33:39,190 --> 00:33:41,470 And in some respects, from the consumer's point of view, it's a no brainer. 723 00:33:41,470 --> 00:33:43,540 I've just got an interest free line for four months, even though if I've 724 00:33:43,540 --> 00:33:48,430 got the money, I'm just, you know, um, not that you know you Well, I say 725 00:33:48,430 --> 00:33:49,300 you're not gonna wear an interest. 726 00:33:49,300 --> 00:33:50,740 Of course you are, but it's gonna be negligible. 727 00:33:50,740 --> 00:33:53,080 But, you know, I was, I was, um. 728 00:33:54,235 --> 00:33:57,745 A, a good friend of mine who, who passed away a few years ago, uh, 729 00:33:57,745 --> 00:34:01,735 and he passed away at a good old age, and he made, he made millions. 730 00:34:02,035 --> 00:34:04,255 Frank and I, when I say millions, I mean millions. 731 00:34:04,855 --> 00:34:10,645 Um, on the basis of, of this sort of, these minute numbers 732 00:34:10,645 --> 00:34:12,385 of savings over four months. 733 00:34:12,385 --> 00:34:12,925 Do you know what I mean? 734 00:34:12,925 --> 00:34:15,445 He would, he realized he owned supermarkets. 735 00:34:15,445 --> 00:34:18,685 He thought, well, if I leave the, the beans on the pallet and I don't 736 00:34:18,685 --> 00:34:23,290 take them off, then I've saved myself a penny a. Tinner beans. 737 00:34:23,500 --> 00:34:23,950 Do you know what I mean? 738 00:34:23,950 --> 00:34:25,120 It's simple things like that. 739 00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:27,790 Really fascinating how his sort of cost mentality worked. 740 00:34:28,990 --> 00:34:35,980 So before we wrap up, if you have found this episode insightful, I'd like to 741 00:34:35,980 --> 00:34:38,650 invite you to our weekly newsletter where. 742 00:34:39,125 --> 00:34:42,905 We, we are gonna, there'll be the show notes, of course, the standard stuff 743 00:34:42,905 --> 00:34:44,764 in there, but we expand on the topic. 744 00:34:45,094 --> 00:34:47,344 Uh, we're gonna look at this in a lot more detail. 745 00:34:47,495 --> 00:34:48,605 I like the podcast. 746 00:34:48,605 --> 00:34:49,355 I love the podcast. 747 00:34:49,355 --> 00:34:51,995 I love the format, but it is limited in some respects. 748 00:34:52,475 --> 00:34:55,745 Um, it's brilliant for big ideas, but the newsletter is where we can 749 00:34:55,745 --> 00:34:58,235 really break things down step by step. 750 00:34:58,505 --> 00:35:01,565 And of course, you can sign up for that on the podcast website, 751 00:35:01,565 --> 00:35:05,315 eCommerce podcast.net, or the link will be in the show notes. 752 00:35:05,855 --> 00:35:06,935 Uh, but Frank, listen. 753 00:35:08,125 --> 00:35:10,675 So I, I'm thoroughly embarrassed 'cause I don't dunno, my, 754 00:35:10,765 --> 00:35:12,565 my, uh, payment decline rate. 755 00:35:12,805 --> 00:35:17,965 Um, I'm, I'm, I'm assuming that I'm not the only one though listening, 756 00:35:18,205 --> 00:35:19,765 uh, that, that, that has that problem. 757 00:35:19,765 --> 00:35:20,845 So we're gonna go away and find it out. 758 00:35:21,325 --> 00:35:24,925 But if people wanna know more about, you, want to dig into the topic a 759 00:35:24,925 --> 00:35:27,640 little bit further, maybe got questions for you, maybe they wanna know about 760 00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:28,975 Revolve, what's the best way to. 761 00:35:29,010 --> 00:35:30,750 To sort of connect and find out more? 762 00:35:31,350 --> 00:35:32,850 Yeah, I would say go to our website. 763 00:35:32,850 --> 00:35:35,880 We got a lot of sort of helpful information, uh, white 764 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:37,410 papers, that sort of thing. 765 00:35:37,530 --> 00:35:41,960 It's revolv3.com, R-E-V-O-L-V-3.com. 766 00:35:42,780 --> 00:35:44,730 Um, or shoot me off, uh, an email. 767 00:35:44,730 --> 00:35:48,540 Happy to sort of, uh, you know, assess where you are. 768 00:35:48,540 --> 00:35:54,490 So frank.arellano@revolv3.com. 769 00:35:54,865 --> 00:35:55,615 Fantastic. 770 00:35:56,095 --> 00:36:00,895 We will of course link to those, uh, bits of information in the show notes as well. 771 00:36:00,895 --> 00:36:03,085 So if you're on a podcast app, just scroll down and click the 772 00:36:03,085 --> 00:36:03,955 link and you'll go straight. 773 00:36:04,195 --> 00:36:05,455 Are you on LinkedIn, Frank? 774 00:36:05,665 --> 00:36:05,995 I am, 775 00:36:06,085 --> 00:36:06,295 yeah. 776 00:36:06,685 --> 00:36:07,195 Excellent. 777 00:36:07,195 --> 00:36:10,255 Well, we'll include that as, do you do LinkedIn or you just, I, I have it. 778 00:36:10,285 --> 00:36:11,875 'cause you're supposed to have it when you're in business 779 00:36:11,875 --> 00:36:12,745 or are you a big fan of it? 780 00:36:12,985 --> 00:36:13,885 Yeah, I'm a big fan. 781 00:36:13,885 --> 00:36:15,325 I like, I love the messaging in there. 782 00:36:15,325 --> 00:36:16,105 I use that quite a bit. 783 00:36:16,390 --> 00:36:17,380 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 784 00:36:17,380 --> 00:36:20,740 I've, I've, I've definitely been more active in the last six months on LinkedIn 785 00:36:20,740 --> 00:36:22,480 than I think the rest of my entire life. 786 00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:24,730 And I, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a quite a big fan. 787 00:36:25,270 --> 00:36:25,330 Um. 788 00:36:26,770 --> 00:36:28,690 Frank, listen, thank you for joining us. 789 00:36:28,690 --> 00:36:31,630 Before you go though, uh, for the listeners that have stayed with us 790 00:36:31,630 --> 00:36:36,070 this far, we have a new section here on eCommerce Podcast called Saving the Best 791 00:36:36,070 --> 00:36:40,270 Till Last, and this is where I say to my guests, Frank, what's your one tip? 792 00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:44,470 Maybe something that we've not talked about, maybe one thing that's gonna 793 00:36:44,470 --> 00:36:48,220 change our businesses for the better, either in what we've talked about 794 00:36:48,220 --> 00:36:49,420 or something completely different. 795 00:36:49,420 --> 00:36:55,300 In your years of ecommerce, if there was like one key tip that you could share. 796 00:36:56,230 --> 00:36:57,100 What would that be? 797 00:36:57,850 --> 00:36:59,620 I think it's related to what we talked about. 798 00:36:59,620 --> 00:37:04,420 I, because to your point, Matt, um, a lot of people just kind of assume 799 00:37:04,420 --> 00:37:06,700 payments work and you can leave it alone. 800 00:37:06,700 --> 00:37:09,370 So I would say go through your processing statements. 801 00:37:09,370 --> 00:37:12,820 I know they're super complicated and all these interchange 802 00:37:12,820 --> 00:37:14,200 numbers and things like that. 803 00:37:14,815 --> 00:37:17,935 But understand what your approval rates are, understand how much 804 00:37:17,935 --> 00:37:19,315 you're, you're paying for it, right? 805 00:37:19,315 --> 00:37:20,455 Your effective rate. 806 00:37:21,175 --> 00:37:24,415 They may advertise 2.9, but then you realize after all these 807 00:37:24,415 --> 00:37:26,305 other fees, you're paying 4%. 808 00:37:26,575 --> 00:37:26,695 Mm-hmm. 809 00:37:26,935 --> 00:37:29,575 Um, so get informed, um, know what that is. 810 00:37:29,695 --> 00:37:34,945 Um, because I, I, I, there's likely opportunity there to either save or 811 00:37:34,945 --> 00:37:38,005 improve that, um, uh, those decline rates. 812 00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:39,400 Fantastic. 813 00:37:39,700 --> 00:37:40,330 Fantastic. 814 00:37:40,630 --> 00:37:40,930 Frank. 815 00:37:40,930 --> 00:37:42,040 Thank you so much, brother. 816 00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:42,970 Thanks for coming on. 817 00:37:42,970 --> 00:37:46,690 Genuinely, genuinely, uh, loved the conversation. 818 00:37:46,720 --> 00:37:51,009 Very envious of Laguna Beach, not very envious of Milton Keynes, uh, which is 819 00:37:51,009 --> 00:37:52,870 where you did live for a little while. 820 00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:56,320 Um, I, we joked about that before we hit the record. 821 00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:58,390 Not that I have any issues with Milton Keynes, obviously. 822 00:37:58,900 --> 00:38:02,870 Um, uh, but I, I can see why you would choose Laguna Beach over Milton Keynes. 823 00:38:02,890 --> 00:38:03,285 Yeah, for sure. 824 00:38:03,515 --> 00:38:04,045 Easy to. 825 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:08,320 But listen, loved it, loved the conversation. 826 00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:09,430 Let's definitely stay in touch. 827 00:38:09,430 --> 00:38:10,810 Let's meet up at Subs, Sumit. 828 00:38:10,810 --> 00:38:14,380 And of course, like I said, if anyone's listening, uh, thus far do come and 829 00:38:14,380 --> 00:38:16,330 say how's it to, to us at Sub Summit. 830 00:38:16,330 --> 00:38:17,140 But thank Frank. 831 00:38:17,140 --> 00:38:17,710 Thank you, man. 832 00:38:17,710 --> 00:38:18,250 Appreciate it. 833 00:38:18,490 --> 00:38:18,910 Thank you. 834 00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:20,230 Awesome. 835 00:38:20,230 --> 00:38:21,310 Well, that's it from me. 836 00:38:21,310 --> 00:38:22,390 That's it from Frank. 837 00:38:22,390 --> 00:38:23,800 Thank you so much for joining us. 838 00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:26,259 Have a fantastic week wherever you are in the world. 839 00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:27,370 I'll see you next time. 840 00:38:27,700 --> 00:38:28,090 Bye for now.