Welcome to the last part of our three part dialogue with Hameed Ali aka A. H. Almaas in which we continue to explore the logos and creative dynamism and how that creative force is specific to the human soul and causes us to burn with the desire for liberation. This force is the force that is responsible for human spiritual development. Welcome to deep transformation Self, society, spirit, life enhancing paradigm rattling conversations with cutting edge thinkers, contemplatives and activists. With Dr. Roger Walsh and John Dupuy.

The invocation of particular realizations is part of a developmental process which brings us to a very important topic in this chapter that kind of builds from everything. You've spoken earlier about the creative dynamism of reality, that it's ordered by the logos. There's an order, coherence, harmony to it. But there's also, you point out a developmental aspect to creativity, that a kind of intelligent developmental process seems to be inherent in creativity. And you speak of this as one facet of it, as the optimizing force, that there is a dynamic or dimension which unfolds aspects of creation, particularly of course the human being. But more than just the human being unfolds entities so as to first develop, mature, but also to better embody and express being.

Yeah, so and this is a very important point because. And also it's an important point that also differentiates the west from the east and the east. If you look at the non dual teaching in the east, like Mahamudra talks about one taste or equalness, everything is the same. So but that is true in the state of non duality. Nothing is better than anything else, they're all equal. However, that doesn't take into consideration the question of dynamism that happen, the creativity when the dynamism, and they do. I mean blockchain does have dynamism talks about display and Muhammad talks about manifestation, but they don't talk about that the display has an order. That is we could see as a human being that evolution to it has a development to it. So I don't think it is an accident that the theory of evolution develops in the west, you know, or that the science that we know it developed in the west. Because the Western mind, based on the Greek kind of logos, has in it the perspective of development change. And there is change. Change is implicit both east and west, but the change in the west is also. There is a possibility of development. Not always, but it is one possibility. So one thing we see is that there's an order to the creativity that we've seen. Meaning it makes sense to how Things happen. Makes. Makes what appears sensical and meaningful and appears as experience of life loving that, however, and on top of that it also, if you look at it, it will show that you are experiencing yourself as also that your life is changing. Not only changing, but you're learning more. There's more learning, there's more experience. Both outer learning and inner learning. There is a maturation that happens. I mean, the eastern gurus know they are more mature than the Angar gurus, but they don't talk about that. That is not part of their view. You have to be a Westerner to think in terms of. Because that talks about progress. That's why must have the idea of progress. Not necessarily progress is always good, but you have a sense of progress. Because the manifestation and the generation of appearance is. It doesn't generate things always the same way. It generates them. When it changes and the changes that happen, you change from a child to an adult or man, a wizened person or not. Right? So that implies the order has in it something that we call learning and development and maturation and ripening.

Hamid, would you say that there's a telios to the universe to being? That there's a directionality which in which manifestation evolves?

You could say that, yes. I mean, that's implicit, but that's more like the. In the logos doesn't think of how to do it. It just does naturally happens. And you could say it's a teleus. And that's what I mean. Intelligence or order, you know, but the order, it is an amazing thing. Look at it from the outside. Things you see, you know, there was no earth, now there's earth, there was no life, there's life. We know that by looking at time. Logos doesn't look at time. If you are in a non dual, you don't look at time, so you don't care about that. And it's true for your present experience doesn't matter. However, look at the human race and all being and all that you're thinking of really being useful. In general society you have to look at things from perspective, time to which is that there have. Things have changed. You know, there was no earth, now there is earth, there was no life, now there is life. There was no consciousness, now there's consciousness. There was no awakening, now there's awakening. And that shows that the logos doesn't just create things, but create thing in an order. An order that shows what we call an optimization of appearance. Because it's not just creating earth and rocks and all of that and just keep recreating rocks. No, at some point there is some kind of molecule that develop into cells, into living organism. So that is kind of an evolution or development. That is part of the order. There is an order. You can have an order without development. Meaning things are not disorderly, orderly, they're always, you know, not clashing. But that could continue being the same way. However, the way we see things is that the things not only appear in order, an order that is having some kind of teleus, as you said, or some kind of unthought, unplanned progression, progression from one form of appearance or experience to another. That's like spiritual realization, spiritual development, experience opens, deepens, expands. All of that happens. That's part of what that is, evolution. That's not just. It is orderly, however, it's not just orderly repeating the same thing. It's orderly through development. That we will call it development, looking at it from perspective of one taste or equalness. All the same, all equal. The all pure consciousness. It is true. But this pure consciousness now is appearing as a grown up human being instead of a baby. A baby doesn't have no idea about its nature. This grown up can have experience with its true nature. And that idea of trees or true nature is very important for the logos to recognize. It is a logos.

And amid you point out that of course this optimizing process plays out at many scales and dimensions. You talk about the self organizing universe, which is one every idea and cosmology, but at the level of the individual human. You talk about the way we can recognize this in ourselves. And that there is the potential for enhancing our psychological spiritual development. You say, by aligning or staying in the flow of being. But that raises the question, well, how do we stay in the flow of being?

Well, I mean that's part of the spiritual development. I mean all genuine practices are oriented to stay in touch with being. And if you're in touch with being, it's possible to be in touch with the flow of being. Because if you're in touch with being, even in a state of timelessness, you know, when there's no sense of passage of time, things change anyway. Perception changes. I mean, you could be timeless and walk in the street, so your perception changes. But also the thing here we're discussing is that spiritual learning, the whole spiritual journey implies there is an evolution and development that is possible for the individual soul to recognize what it is, recognize it as pure awareness, it's pure presence, it is dynamic. And the dynam comes from a larger field. So until it becomes can experience itself as this large or dynamic creative field, all this is in evolution and development. One thing I want to mention here about the optimizing force, the universe as a whole. Logos as a whole has an optimizing in the sense it has a transformative, not only creates, but transforms what it creates from one thing to another, from one stage to another. It's like a larva development of butterfly, for instance. That's a transformation and that is the logos is actually behind that. The logos gives the larva its body and the next moment it manifests itself. It manifests itself as a butterfly emerging from the larva, from the larva. The next moment it is manifesting a butterfly flying. So there is an optimizing force in the sense there is a change and transformation in the universe as a whole. However, there is what I call a specific optimizing force, which is what happened in the human soul and its spiritual evolution. And that does not happen to everybody because the optimizing force, this particular specific optimizing force appear it is a potential in the soul, but it doesn't not become actualized. Except for some people, not everybody, not everybody had their heart throbbing with the desire for truth, the desire for God. Some people do and others don't. Some people are busy making a living, nothing bad, nothing wrong. Busy locust is manifesting as making a living, but manifesting some people with a heart burning, with a desire for realization or liberation. That is the particular specific optimizing force within the soul that is responsible for spiritual development. A soul cannot develop without the optimizing force. And different teachings call it different names. Of course. The most well known one, the Buddhist one, is Bodhicitta, which is the thought of enlightenment, which means the desire for enlightenment. It doesn't appear in everybody, but when it appears in some way, it can become force, can become a deep longing, deep yearning, an intense dynamism and a strong drive. Sometimes the drive becomes so powerful, so strong, everything else is secondary. And in fact it has to become that way for realization to truly happen, to happen as a flow of realization, not just one experience.

And it's always been a question to me. I'd love to have your take on me. Why is it that some people have this yearning for learning, growth, awakening and others, it just seems. Nope, I've never quite figured that one out.

Most people don't have it. Yeah, the majority of humanity doesn't have it. That's when people tell me, well, do you think that now we're going to big Change going to be collective change. I think they don't know what they're talking about. There's no such thing as a collective change for the human race because that means Samsara will change to nirvana soon. Even the Buddhist perspective, there's no such thing Samsara. Samsara can continue as Samsara. So it's a mystery why is it really for some people that see their heart gets active, their soul begin to burn, the flame is ignited and gets stronger and stronger. So hunger or a hunger. Some people get the flame and doesn't get strong. Just, you know, some flame they do some practice, they do something but doesn't become an overriding force for some people. Become such an overriding force, everything else falls to the wayside. Why that happened for some people, I don't know if I understand it. I see it happening, you know, I know a different tradition, explain it different ways. If you go there, Eastern tradition, they think of it in terms of karma that, you know, you have to finish with your karma. Your karma has to get to a certain level of clarification. Western traditional say it's God's will. God activates some people's hearts, but not others. These are the explanation. I think it's potential for human beings. I think human being, maybe more in the long term, more human being will be activated that way. So maybe in 50,000 years there'll be 5% of the human race activated that way instead of 0.1% like now.

Not a very optimistic perspective.

Yeah, maybe it's enough people think in the next decade. I don't think changing one look at the human history, you know, 50,000 years, whatever. How much did the human race change? I mean, Buddha came, what did he do? How many people did he change? Jesus came and people said Jesus came, he changed the world, did he? He brought love and teaching of love, all of that that impacts some people, not the majority of the human rights. So all those great people, they make some changes here and there. But the human race as a whole is very billions of people. And most people are eminence is not to be blamed. They're busy making a living, Busy. Survival is unfair in some sense. Spiritual realization is a luxury of sort. You need to have space, time and the capacity to especially in the western world. You have to be able to survive. In the Eastern tradition. They have support for people even if you can't. Like Ramana Maharshi, for instance. He went to the jungle and the drive was so powerful. He went to the jungle, he forgot everything. He Wouldn't eat or sleep or whatever. He was just getting into realization. But then, you know, people found him and took care of her. He didn't know how to take care of himself. He was left to himself. He would have died. Nobody would have known about him. But some people found him and they created a temple. They took care of him. He didn't know how to take care of himself. You know, they took care of him, fed him when he got sick, they got him a doctor. He wouldn't know how to go. He was. So that system there in India has that support in the west, we don't have that.

What Jesus said that a little leaven. Leaven it, the whole loaf. Maybe that little bit is enough for now. And it's what it is. And he said many are called fewer chosen. Which is again part of the mystery that we're talking about. How does that, you know, come about?

I agree with many, like this saying and many other traditions talk about that that few realized individuals can keep the human race going, that it's a mystery how that happened. But really, if there were nobody realized, no one would spiritual burn happening in them. I don't think the human race will last long, but the fact that a few, not many, small percentage, keep things going, and I think in some sense it makes the human continue to be human.

And I want to just draw out something you said in passing, amid which is that why this desire for awakening initially arises in some people is in many ways a mystery. But you also implied or pointed to the fact that spiritual practices, contemplations, etc. Meditation, yogas, etc. And all the work you've created in the diamond approach have the capacity for both intensifying and purifying that aspiration.

Yes. So in some sense there's an interaction between the spiritual aspiration and the practices. The spiritual aspiration make you want to practice. It gives you the motivation to seek practice, find a teacher or a teaching and practice the practices. Then help support and fan the fire of the flame. Make it more intense. Yeah.

Removing the obstacles also from this realization.

True, because there are obstacles, distractions. Like we discussed some of the diamond vehicles, some of them deals with some of these obstacles. Like if you remember the diamond vehicle, the merkabah, it has in it the teaching, what I call the inner turn, how to turn from the outside to the inside. And that's a big turn for the soul. And it is the beacon of pleasure. Because human beings think pleasure come from the outside. You seek pleasure from the perspective of the animal instincts. Survival, social and sexual pleasure come from the outside. And the entertain is interesting. It's about the vehicle that showed that true nature's pleasure that is part of the inner turn that make you turn inward. And you find that inward the pleasure of the inner far surpasses the outer pleasure. But that is only part. But it is more wisdom than just. It's more pleasurable inside. It's more like shows the obstacle, the attachment to the outside, the attachment to our mother to her breast, attachment to the world and its temptations and the good things that are in it, the pleasures, the delights and the promise and all of that. It shows those and their perspective. And bringing the inner term of the soul turns inward. And the inner becomes number one. It's not like in the diamond approach specifically. It's not an ascetic path. So it's not turning away from the world. It's making the inner be the primary and lives within the outer world. So it is living in the world, but not of it is more the principle.

Me do. All this aspiration, this fire for awakening has certainly been incredibly strong and central for you. And out of that has, you know, being as manifested all these incredible teachings. So a deep thank you for the purity and intensity of your own inner fire for that. And we've covered a lot. Is there anything else you'd like to add?

I think you know, for the listeners is to be attentive to this inner calling which can appear as a discontent with life, can appear as meaninglessness. What is the meaning of life? Looking for the meaning of life. And we won't find the meaning outside. Some of us want meaning in life. They want to look for outside. But that is the beginning of that inner part. What is the meaning of life? Or who the hell am I? How I know myself? Delphic oracle. Know thyself. Basically pointing that Know thyself. Why Know thy self. Most people, they think they know themselves. I am such and such. My driver lies. And this is my birth certificate. And this is my all, my accomplishment and my reward. I know myself. But they are usually empty and happy and they have a lot of dissatisfaction. So it is really a movement of truth, movement toward harmony, a movement toward inner union, movement toward authenticity, a movement toward discovery, a movement toward aliveness, a movement toward mystery, a movement and an adventure. I mean, it can appear in many ways. And whenever we feel any of that, to heed it, to see it's important to not think it is just one thing among other things. No, it actually can become the central, the overriding force.

Blow in that spark. Make it build the flame.

Yeah, build the flame. And the stronger the flame. We are the winners. It might appear we are turning away from the world, but actually, if we realize what we are, our true nature, the world itself becomes richer. Our life in the world is richer and more satisfied. And we're better people. We're better for our family, our friends. We're nicer to be with, all of that. But that's not the point. The point is that we want to know the truth. What is God? What is truth? What is reality? I mean, the scientists want to know reality, but they're looking at it externally, which is fine. You find out about the external, but it can become an inward turn, inward searching. It's called seeking or searching. And there is the surge, the flame. I call the flame of the surge can become an intense raging fire that consumes all the obstacles within so that to reveal the true reality of the inner awareness and consciousness, which can reveal this transformative force that is really the source of this inner fire. It is the logos, you see. It's the word that is speaking through us, through our souls, our heart.

Beautiful. Meaden.

We are represented. We are nothing but the logos. But we don't know that. The logos speaking through what we think we are. And in time, we realize, oh, we are the logos, we are the soul. And so things turned upside down, inside out.

And so interesting.

So transformation.

Yeah. And so beautiful and so delightful to be able to do this exploration. And it just keeps getting more and more amazing. There aren't many things I'm certain of in life, but one of them is this journey is far bigger and more mysterious and profound than I realized.

Yeah.

And you took us into some deep waters today, Hamid, which we're very grateful.

Yeah. Yeah, thanks so much, Mead.

We haven't discussed many parts of it. Like how language is related to the logos, for instance.

No.

How the Logan is the speaker that creation is speaking. Speaking the world or thinking the world out. There's different ways of experiencing the logic. Experience as an outer flow of substance. You can see it as an outer flow of thought, of words, all in different ways of experiencing the activity of being.

Well, would you like to say something more about it, Amit?

I think that's just a little reference.

Okay.

To complete the story next time, make it more complete. We cannot complete. We can make it just more complete.

Okay. Well, we can certainly acknowledge that there's a lot more we could talk about.

I know we could probably spend 24 hours discussing the details of this.

Well, yes. This is an 800 page book, the Journey Home. And on more than one occasion you've said in here and in our conversations that one chapter could be expanded to the size of the book. So.

Yeah. And as you know, Roger, that this book really details the knowledge of the soul and journey into the non dual dimension realization, but that the teaching has other kind of realization that are not included in this book. Many other realizations we could spend a lot of time on. So although we're emphasizing non dual, I don't want the listener to think that is all reality can be. Reality can appear in other ways that are also mysterious and interesting.

And it would be wonderful. And I hope we will at some stage get to those other realizations and the further expressions and turnings, as you call them of your teaching and the diamond approach work have manifested through you. But for now, Hamid, thank you so much. This has been extraordinary. Rich as always, a priceless privilege to dialogue with you. Exciting, fun, stimulating opening. Ah, lots of things.

And your study. I saw you study the other day. I went to your house. Thanks for inviting me to the gathering. I went to your house to go to bathroom. I saw you study. And that's where you Raja sits.

Right.

And so your books. So. And. But it is all emerging out of the logos.

Yeah. Yeah, indeed. Thank you so much. Amid. What a gift.

Yeah. Thank you so much.

Delighted. Oh, until next time, gentlemen.

Yes. They barely wait. All good for you. Indeed. Thank you.

Yeah.

Thank you very much for being a part of this conversation. We hope that you were moved as we are moved being part of it ourselves. We'd also like to say that this is being funded by Roger and myself. It comes out of our pockets. So if you would like to help us to mainly to get this podcast out to more. More people because the bigger audience have which is steadily growing, but the more people we can reach and the more marketing we can do, the more positive effect we can have on the world. So we've done a couple of ways, but we'd like you to buy us a cup of coffee. Very simple. And I do that with podcasts that I support and I find it's very satisfying. So thank you for your help. Thank you for your presence and thank you for all you are and all you do. We love you.

Sam.