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Tom Sadler is in his second season as a varsity boys basketball coach at IMG Academy in Bradenton, Florida.

Previously, he was the Head of Performance Basketball at the University of Essex in the United Kingdom.

Tom was also the director of 1 to 1 basketball from 2015 to 2022.

In addition to working at several other academies in the uk, Tom played collegiate basketball at Franklin Pierce University and enjoyed a six year professional career including stops in Denmark, England, France and the United States.

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You'll want to take some notes as you listen to this episode with Tom Sadler, Varsity Boys Basketball Coach at IMG Academy in Bradenton, Florida.

Hello and welcome to the Hoop Heads Podcast.

It's Mike Klinsing here without my co host, Jason Sunkel this morning, But I am pleased to be joined by Tom Sadler, basketball coach at IMG Academy.

Tom, welcome to the hoop ed pod.

Mike, thanks for having me on, man.

I just want to say thank you for inviting me on the podcast.

It's really an honor for me to be here.

I've been a longtime listener of your show, and your show's definitely inspired me during many, many of my morning workouts on the treadmill.

So I'm excited to be here today and share my basketball journey with you.

So.

Well, I appreciate the kind words.

And like I always say, it's nice when you talk to somebody who listens because sometimes you feel like you're talking and you want to make sure that there's somebody out there getting value.

So whenever I talk to someone that is a longtime listener, again, I can't express my appreciation enough for the people who are out there, like yourself in our audience, who get some value out of what we're doing.

So we are very excited to have you on and looking forward to diving into all the things that you've been able to do in your career.

Let's start by going back in time to when you were a kid.

Tell me about growing up, how you first fell in love with the game of basketball.

Yeah, so.

So I actually started playing in PE class.

I was around, I think I was about 13 at the time, so I was late to the game, but picked up the basketball.

It was one of those things, like, as soon as I picked it up, it just felt so natural.

It also helped that I had a growth spurt the summer, summer before, where I went from about 5, 10 to 6, 4 at 13.

So.

So it kind of gave me an advantage over a lot of my peers during those lessons.

It was, it was a really unique situation where I grew up because a lot of my friends got into the game as well, around the same sort of time.

And, and we just, we were obsessed with it, man.

Like, we were playing every single day before school, during break times, after school, for hours.

You know, I would, I wouldn't get home till like 7, 8 o'clock at night, you know, just because we were up at the school playing hoops.

So it was, it was a really special start for me.

A lot of those guys that I grew up with that I started playing with, I'm still very close with today, which, which is really cool.

And for about two or three years, it was just, it was a lot of free play after school, you know, two on twos, three on threes, one on ones, whoever was around.

And that kind of gave me my real introduction to the game, you know.

And during that time I remember staying up late to try and watch the NBA.

We had a BBL team, which is, which is our pro league over in England.

We had a BBL team about 45 minutes away and me and my friends, we would just go and watch this team play.

It was actually the Essex Leopards that were coached by Billy Mims at the time and he's now at Florida Tech not too far from here.

And just being able to see, you know, professional basketball, it kind of inspired me.

And I knew during that period that this is, this is what I wanted to do for the rest of my life.

When I was about 15, there was, there was trials in my local, my nearest town for a National League team.

They were looking at under 18s and I was, I was a little bit younger, but, but I made the team nevertheless and you know, had opportunities to train by an actual coach who was a great mind at the time.

He kind of taught me the real fundamentals.

You know, even though I was, I was rapidly growing, I was probably about 6, 6, 6, 7 by the time I got into National League.

And he didn't, he didn't make me a post player.

He kind of taught me how to play a face up game, taught me how to cut.

You know, we learned how to, how to set and use screens.

But, but funny enough, we only practice once a week, you know, so we would have this structured practice on a Friday night before our games on the weekend.

But prior to that, the rest of the week, it was just, it was just me and my friends playing, you know, three on threes.

Like I said, two on twos and one on ones.

And, and that's kind of how I, how I got into the game.

How do you think your development was.

Affected by all that free play?

Which I know, at least here in the states, the amount of free play that kids have today compared to the amount of free play that I had when I was a kid is much lower.

So how do you think that affected you as opposed to maybe being in a more structured environment from an early age?

Do you know what?

I think it accelerated my learning, you know, and you hear Alex talk a lot about this stuff with, with cla and transforming basketball, you know, just, just having the freedom in a small sided game to be able to be able to attack a defender in a one on one situation, but you know, recognizing space and you know, I'll be honest, I'LL hold my hands up.

I'm guilty.

I'm one of those guys.

You know, I'm a little bit older now, you know, over the last few years.

You know, you talk about kids not having a real feel for the game, and I kind of see that as well.

That's our responsibility to try and create that environment where they can.

Where they can have a little bit of freedom.

You know, I think we need to do more to create a little bit more free play during our practice times.

For me, like I said, I think it made a huge difference.

I think it really, like, in a short amount of time, I went from playing, you know, just school basketball to National League, and before you know it, I was having opportunities with the national team.

And I think.

I think that's just a big testament down to that, that free play element.

So as you continue to develop as you get into your late teens, what's your plan for the game of basketball as a player?

I know eventually you end up coming to the States and going to school and playing here at Franklin and Pierce and have a professional career.

But what are you thinking when you're 16, 17 years old?

What's the plan?

Or is there a plan?

Or is it just things are kind of happening to you?

No, no, I think.

I think I kind of knew that this was what I wanted to do.

Like, like I said to you, as soon as I picked up the ball, I knew this is what I wanted to do for the rest of my life.

I was.

I was very fortunate that in the National League at the time, there was some.

Like I said, I was playing in an under 18s competition at the age of 15, know, and there was some older guys that were really dominating that National League from the London area that were going out to the States.

And all of a sudden I saw that as a route.

You know, I knew I wanted to play professionally, that that was my goal.

I wanted to be a professional basketball player.

And.

And these guys that were going off to America, I kind of.

They kind of laid that.

That pathway for me, so to speak.

And I kind of.

I put all my eggs in one basket and I was.

I was very focused.

You know, I think.

I do think I'm someone that when I put my mind to something, I find a way of making it happen.

And When I was 17, I was traveling with a team in the summer.

It was like a representative team.

We had some of the best players in the country.

It wasn't a national team, but we got invited to go over to France to play in this tournament in Dubai.

And it was through working with that team, there was a coach involved who connected me with a high school coach out here in the States.

And, and that's kind of how it happened.

You know, I was playing on that team in June.

We traveled out to France.

Funny enough, Luau Deng was on that team as well.

And I think in the same tournament Carmelo Anthony was playing.

So it was, it was a really good, it was a really good opportunity to kind of expose yourself to some high caliber competition.

But anyway, so before you know it, I was playing in this tournament in June.

Fast forward to end of August.

I'm starting my senior year in high school up in Farmington, New Hampshire.

And that was just, that was an amazing experience for me and one that I'm forever grateful for, for the people that were involved, the coach that was able to connect me to the high school coach, the host family that put me up for the year.

You know, I'm still in touch with those guys that they're like a second parents for me.

I've stayed in contact through them throughout, throughout my career.

They actually came down last, last year to meet my little boy.

So that was, that was really special.

But yeah, I mean, just, just an awesome experience being, being a kid from, from England, you know, getting to America and just kind of living out my dream was, was fantastic.

What was the cultural adjustment like and what was your perception of the US before you got here versus what you experienced when you actually set foot and started participating in high school basketball and just being a high school student and living in the United States?

Yeah, I mean, everything.

My perception of the US was just from movies, right?

TV shows, magazines.

Like I used to read Slam magazine every month when it came out.

You know, staying up and watching the NBA.

Like, for me the US was just all glitz and glamour, you know, and it was, I wouldn't say it was an adjustment.

You know, I think I settled in to the, to the transition, living here in the US really well, because again, it was, this was something that I really wanted to do, that I was passionate about and I knew I needed to be here and try and make a success of it in order for me to get to where I wanted to get to.

So.

Oh, maybe, maybe when I first started high school there was a slight adjustment.

You know, my accent sounds different to everyone else's.

It was a small school.

You know, people would ask me crazy questions about the UK and you know, but, but really it was, it was cool, man.

I loved it.

I absolutely Loved it.

Tell me about the recruitment process for you.

Oh, man.

So, so that was nuts.

I remember my, my first session with my high school coach.

You know, he, he hadn't seen me play other than off a tape.

And it was like this, this VHS highlight tape that I put together of me, me dunking on people in the National League, you know, so he hadn't really seen me play and move properly, you know.

So he works me out in this first session and after the session he's like, look man, you're going to get to go to any school you want.

He's like, where do you want to go?

And I was, you know, again, coming from the uk, you know, my parents came from a working class family.

My dad was a London taxi driver, had like a football background.

My mum was a travel agent.

You know, Neither of them had any sort of experience in basketball or, you know, where it can lead to and further education and the rest of it, you know, none of my family had been to college, so I was the first.

And, you know, I just, I didn't know, you know, I mean, and I was just, you know, I kept an open mind to the recruitment process.

But I remember it being really exciting, I would say.

I remember my first game and it was in what you call a full league.

Coaches, coaches weren't allowed to coach.

It was just the players had to organize themselves.

But word must have got out that, you know, by the time I started high school, I was 6, 6, 9, right?

So word must have got out that there was a six, nine, English kid around.

And I remember showing up to this game and I promise you there was every coach from The Northeast Division 1, Division 2 in this gym.

You know, you could tell by the polo shirts and the khaki shorts that they were wearing.

And it was, it was wild.

But again, it kind of, at the time, it went over my head.

I wasn't thinking anything of it because I hadn't experienced or I hadn't been exposed to it before, you know, And I, and I just remember I was playing really freely, you know, making moves, you know, taking guys out to the perimeter, going by them, you know.

And my coach afterwards, he said, look, this, this is going to be a crazy year for you.

And he was right.

Like from that day on, I was receiving and it was all male back then, right?

It was personal handwritten notes, it was packages, it was telephone calls, you know, all hours of the day and night, you know, and it was, it was a really cool experience and it's one that I'M really grateful for having gone through and there was, there was a school, I'll tell you this story, right, and it's one that I share with, with my kids today and it's kind of ties into why I do the things I do now, you know.

So again, I told you like, you know, my family and the people that I'd been around growing up, like, hadn't, hadn't been exposed to any of this in the States or really fully understood the pathway or a lot of things to do with basketball, right?

So I'm playing, we're in a game.

It was right before Christmas.

There was a school that I was really set on going to.

I mean, they were recruiting me really hard.

The guy was flying up to all of my games, like flying to New Hampshire to watch me play.

He was at nearly every game and it was a pretty big game for us.

And I remember I was getting like double team, triple teamed in the post and I was, I was starting to get frustrated and you know, I'm a 17, 18 year old kid and you know, coach calls a timeout, I go over to the timeout, my body language is bad.

I go and sit on the end of the bench, I put a towel over my head and that was the last time the school, I saw the school, you know, they stopped recruiting me right then and there, you know, and that was, that was a huge, huge lesson for me and one that stuck with me my entire life, you know, so I'm, I'm big on body language and being a great teammate with the kids because you, you don't know who's watching.

And I think that everything that you do matters, right?

It counts.

So, you know, guys, guys want players that are going to come in and make an impact.

You know, if you're in a difficult situation, you find a lot of, find out a lot about people, right, and who they are in those moments, you know, can be the determining factor as to how successful you're going to be.

So I'm big on body language, but it's a result of that experience that I went through and it was a Division 1 program.

But to cut a long story short, I kind of narrowed down my recruitment and conversations with my high school coach and by the end of the year he was like, look, you know, I think it would be a good idea for you to go to Franklin Pierce University.

It's a, it's a really good school.

It plays it.

You know, they're in a great league, the NE10, which is a fantastic conference, still Is, you know, and, and you could do really well under Coach Chadbourne.

And so I ended up committing to Franklin Pierce University.

It was, it was a five year deal because I was academically ineligible.

And so I had to redshirt my, my freshman year.

And that would, that was an experience in itself, you know, just, just going through that process.

But it was, it was a good experience because it allowed me to kind of get my, my body ready again.

Like I was 6, 9, 6, 10 by that time I got to college and I was probably 185lbs soaking wet, you know, so had to get stronger.

I used that year to get stronger and, you know, learn the physicality of the college game and kind of get used to playing against grown men.

You know, a lot of the guys you go up against in college are in their 20s and, you know, it gave me that opportunity to acclimatize to it.

Were you thinking at all about coaching as you're going to school?

Are you still 100% kind of focused on being a player at this point?

Not once.

Not once.

I was, Mike.

I can't stress.

I was all, all my eggs in one basket.

I was focused on playing.

That's what I wanted to do, you know, very, very like just tunnel vision in terms of where I was going and how I was going to get there.

So what was your favorite moment from playing college basketball?

Favorite moment?

I, I used to really love practices.

I know that sounds.

That sounds crazy.

You know, I.

Coach.

Coach was great in terms of creating a real competitive environment, and I think he was ahead of his time in terms of a lot of stuff that he was doing in practice.

You know, we, we really used to get after it during practice and just competing against each other.

And it was, it was really cool, you know, teams just going back and forth.

We had enough players for two teams.

So you had a red team and a white team and guys just battling.

You know, he would mix up the starters, he would chop and change.

And I just, I just remember every day just really looking forward to getting in and getting a practice.

And I know that sounds crazy because I know a lot of guys, it's the opposite.

You know, it can become a little bit monotonous.

But I thought coach did a great job like that.

We were always working on something.

You know, he was introducing something new a lot of the time and just made it really competitive for us and taught us how to compete, you know, and I loved.

It was.

It was a really great experience.

That was probably your first sign you were going to Become a coach right there, even if you didn't know it, Right?

Yeah, well, you know what?

Like, so.

So I got.

I actually got injured at the end of my red shirt year.

I broke my ankle, so I missed a lot of my true freshman year.

But during that time, like, I spent a lot of time in his office, and we.

He was just talking X's and O's and it was.

It was great, you know what I mean?

And he would ask me questions, but I was, you know, on.

On things that I'd done previously, and I was kind of picking his brains on, you know, X's and O's and all sorts of stuff.

It was just so that.

That was kind of.

That was kind of a unique experience, you know, turning.

Turning a negative into a positive and just trying to learn and absorb as much as I could.

Yeah.

Not many players get that opportunity again because when you're a college basketball player, as you well know, so much your time is just spent on making sure that you're ready to play and understanding what you need to do.

And so to be able to take that step back and get the whole perspective and spend some time actually talking with coaches about something other than how am I playing, how am I doing, how do I fit into the team, what's my role?

But being able to see that bigger picture.

I'm sure that even at the time, you may not have realized it, but looking back, obviously you understand the value of what that brought to you, to be able to just see that bigger picture and kind of get a feel for what a coach is looking at.

Because as a player, you're just so focused on yourself as an individual.

And obviously the coach, not that they're not concerned with the individual, but they're obviously more concerned with the bigger picture of the whole entire team.

So that was a.

Not what you were looking for, I'm sure, in terms of injury.

But again, when you look into the future of, hey, this is where I'm going to end up.

That.

I'm sure that was.

I'm sure that was valuable.

It was.

And I got an insight into how he plans practice.

Right.

I got an insight into the recruitment.

You know, you're looking at the depth chart on the boards, you know, and he's talking about guys that they're looking to bring in.

And, you know, it was just.

It was awesome.

And you don't realize it at the time, but, you know, a lot of the things that he was doing, you know, was kind of setting me up for success later on, you Know, and, yeah, it was just really good experience from that standpoint.

Absolutely.

All right, tell me about the transition from college basketball to professional basketball.

What's the process for you from getting from the NCAA to getting an opportunity to play professionally?

How do you go about that?

Do you hire an agent?

Just what do you do in order to make that dream a reality?

Well, at one point, it was looking like it wasn't going to be a reality just because of the amount of injuries that I had throughout college.

But I.

My college coach backed me right from day one.

And I remember towards the end of my senior year, he said, look, you have an opportunity to go out there and make some money and do this thing professionally.

He's like, don't give up on it.

Don't quit on it.

And for him saying that to me and believing in me, kind of just propel me to.

Again, just to hunt it out and seek opportunities.

I remember I got contacted by an agent just after I graduated, was looking for players that had European passports.

So I had a UK passport at the time.

And he found me an opportunity to go and play in Denmark in the top Danish league.

It was signing for a team that had just won the championship the year before.

They're looking to have another run at it.

They've got two very good Americans already that they'd signed, and they kind of wanted me to come in and just.

Just be that kind of role player, you know, rebounder, set screens, be able to play in the pick and pick and pop a little bit and spread the floor, and it just seemed like a good fit at the time.

So, you know, it was.

I'm one of them.

Like, it was.

It was the first opportunity that came up.

Should I have waited and looked for other things?

Maybe, but, you know, I just.

Just wanted that opportunity to go and play professionally, and this was it.

Funny enough, though, I will say this, I told a white lie there.

That wasn't really my first job offer.

So my first job offer was actually playing with the Nationals that.

Travel around with the Harlem Globetrotters, traveling the world.

Yeah, that was really cool.

I turned it down just because I didn't like the idea of getting my backside beat every night.

So, you know, I thought.

Did you ever do anything with them at all?

I mean, did you have anything other than just kind of talking?

Because I got not.

I got a good general story for you.

I.

I didn't.

I didn't.

I did not.

I.

It was just my agent when I.

When I graduated from.

When I graduated from college, there Was.

And I was just at home, and I wasn't playing anywhere.

But I.

There was a radio contest, and my friend heard this on the radio that you can go.

And there was a.

I mean, it wasn't a triad.

It was just, like, you could.

You could go, and they'd give you, like, one minute.

It was the contest.

They'd give you one minute to do whatever, and they were going to pick one person from this.

Whatever pool of people showed up to play with the Washington Generals here in Cleveland when they played the Globetrotters at the old Richfield Coliseum.

And my friend tells me about this, and I'm like, I don't want.

You know, I'm like, I don't want to do that.

And it's.

You know, like, it's.

I don't want to do that.

So anyway, he eventually wore me down and convinced me.

So he and I go to this thing, and basically, they just give you the ball, and there was, like, 60 people there.

They give you a ball and one minute, and they're like, you know, you just have to do something.

So there was guys doing, like, cartwheels, and, I mean, it was.

It was crazy, like, all the stuff.

So, like, I just went out there and just basically shot the ball for, like, a minute.

My friend rebounded for me, and at the end, I ended up winning this competition.

And so I got to play a game with the General.

So I go down and, you know, I go to the Coliseum and, you know, whatever, go and meet up with the team in the locker room.

They give me a uniform.

And, like, the uniform was.

This is back in probably.

I don't know, this was probably, like, 1994, maybe somewhere.

Somewhere in that range.

So it was still, like, they gave me this uniform that was, like, these tiny shorts, like, barely.

You know, barely fit.

And they're like, you're gonna have to do this.

We're gonna put you in, and you're gonna do this one.

We're gonna do the routine where they're kind of running around in a circle and passing the ball, and they're like, you have to stay directly behind your Globetrotter.

Like, you basically have to be, like, right on the guy's shoulder.

They're showing me where, you know, where I have to be, whatever.

And so, you know, the game's going out, whatever.

I forget if it was the second or third quarter.

You know, I go in and.

And they set up this routine, and as I'm running through, I don't know what I did.

Somehow I made a Mistake.

And the ball just whacked me in the head.

Oh, man.

And then, and then they, then they fought, then they followed me and I got to go to the free throw line.

And of course the Trotters were doing all kinds of heckling and whatever.

I ended up making two free throws.

So that was my, that was my claim to fame for the Washington General.

So it's kind of, it was kind of cool again to say that you were a part of that at some point.

But I, that's, I completely understand why you wouldn't want to do that, why you wouldn't want to do that full time.

I mean, the one thing would be that, I guess the positive would be, you know, depending upon which team you're traveling with, whatever, you could get some cool travel experiences, I'm sure.

But it's, again, it's not, it's not real basketball, let's put it that way.

No, no, for sure though.

Just being able to travel would have been, would have, would have been really unique.

But, you know, like I said, I ended up, I ended up going to Denmark.

I again, riddled with injuries just before Christmas, I slipped a disc in my back and had to leave the team.

It was, it was unfortunate I couldn't finish out the season, but, you know, I was, I was in a bad way.

And so I came back to the US to do a lot of my rehab back at Franklin Pierce.

And then randomly I got, I got emailed by an NBA agent, invited me down to Connecticut again, looking for guys that were 6, 10, wanted, wanted to put on private workouts.

And so I went down there and before you know it, I'm signing with this guy.

And you know, there's, there's conversations that I'm going to potentially get a shot at a 10 day contract with a team.

And I'm having opportunities to try out with the Albany patrons in the cba.

And then the conversation switches from do a year in the CBA and then they'll consider something potentially in the summer league the following year.

But they kind of wanted to see that I could do a year in the CBA before they made any sort of decision, which I get.

So went through that whole process being in Albany, know, making it through training camp, made it through veterans camp, making the team, you know, and a lot of the guys that I'm up against in, in that situation, the guys that have won national championships in, in college at the Division 1 level, guys that have been in the NBA that were trying to get back to the NBA.

So you Know, those guys had way more talent than I certainly did, but, but because of, you know, where I'd come from in, in college and getting that education on, on how to compete and making sure you're working hard, you know, I attacked every session making sure that I was going to be the hardest working guy in practice.

And it led me to a spot on the team.

You know, it was really exciting time.

You know, it was probably the closest thing for me in my career, you know, to the NBA.

Right.

You know, we traveled privately by plane because our owner had his own, his own airplane.

You know, you get, you get a daily stipend of cash to spend on, on food, plus your, plus your salary, which was being paid every week, you know, and it was, it was just a really, really cool experience, but unfortunately again, tore my groin and got put on injured reserve.

So just, just lots of injuries.

I think, I think in hindsight looking back, you know, I was as talented and as hardworking as I was.

I think my body just wasn't, wasn't cut out for it, unfortunately.

So I'm assuming based on our conversation that eventually those injuries just take a toll and even though you had a few more stops in a different, in a couple different places to be able to play that eventually you just, your body just doesn't allow you to play at the level that you want to play.

And so when do you start thinking about coaching?

So, so I was actually, I was actually playing in France, so, so after I left Albany, I went back to the uk, got myself healthy and I ended up signing in France for about four years and I was, I was getting close to 30 around 2012 and a good friend of mine had set up a basketball academy in England and had built this club and was asking me if I would, if I would like be interested in assisting him with the academy and being involved with the club in some capacity.

You know, he was hoping that I would come back and play and I eventually did, but, you know, it just got me thinking about, you know, I'm not going to be able to do this forever.

You know, as much as I'm earning a living, it's not going to be enough to be able to retire on and I need to start thinking now about career, you know.

And so I ended up working at this academy, but in order to make up the hours up, I had to split half my time in a school teaching as a teaching assistant, and then the rest of the time was, was with basketball.

So that kind of, that kind of got me, got me started on my.

Coaching journey, what did you like about coaching right away?

Because obviously it wasn't something that you had thought a great deal about before you jump into it.

So how did you feel about it?

What did you like about it right from the start?

Player development.

The player development side of things.

I think just, just, you know, just recently coming from being a player, you know, I loved, I loved working out, you know, I liked lifting, I liked my on court workouts outside of practice, you know, doing individuals, stuff like that.

And I'm really passionate about it and being at the academy with kids, you know, who reminded me a lot of myself, you know, when I was their age.

You know, these are kids that have aspirations to go off to the States to do a lot of the things I had done.

You know, it was just, it was a really cool experience, you know, and the player development side of things is something that I've always been passionate about.

So yeah.

Talk to me about just the journey then from the start of your coaching career to img and then we can dive into what you're doing at IMG and just kind of how your coaching has evolved over time.

Oh man, it certainly evolved.

You know, like I said, I was going, making that transition from player to coach.

I was an assistant coach at the time within the academy.

And in my second year I had a head coaching opportunity because the academy was growing.

We were looking to launch a girls program.

So the guy that I was working for went off and coached the girls and I stayed with the boys.

And that was just a great, great experience.

You know, you're on the minibuses, you're organizing the travel, talking about college placement.

We're trying to get the kids placed in college.

We had a number of kids that ended up coming out here to the states.

So it was a really good experience.

You're writing match reports after the games.

And then around 2015, 2016, there was like, there was a life event that kind of happened to me that kind of made me reevaluate the things that I was doing.

And as grateful as I was to be coaching basketball in the academy, you know, and starting out on this coaching journey, I was still spending the other half of my time in school teaching.

And you know, as much as I love being around the kids, I just, it wasn't for me understood teaching wasn't for me and you know, I needed, I needed to really look at what I was doing and I felt, I just felt like there was more I could be doing.

I could be, I could be having more of an impact.

You know, it was basically.

It was a situation.

I lost my dad, and he was really close to me, but going through that process of him passing, you know, you realize life's too short.

And what really matters, it's not.

It's not so much the money or cars and houses, but.

But really people.

And I think it gave me purpose and led me to, you know, just wanting to do more for people and trying to make more of a difference and trying to.

Trying to have a bigger impact.

And so first thing I did was I went back to university.

I went and got my mba.

I set up my own coaching company, actually, in the area where I grew up, because I looked at the area where I had grown up, and I realized in the 20 years that I'd been removed from that area, there hadn't been another kid like me that had come through.

And I thought that was, you know, there was no reason why we couldn't try and recreate something and make that happen again and provide opportunities for kids and.

And try and give them experience that they wouldn't get elsewhere, you know.

And so I set up my own academy and put a load of sessions on in the community for under twelves, under 14s, under 16s, and just kind of immerse myself into giving back to the.

To the local community through these basketball sessions.

The following year, before you know it, we had enough kids that we could enter our own teams into the national league.

And you look back, it started with four kids in a gymnasium on a Friday night at a community session.

And it grew into this monster of a program, and we created this whole pathway.

And around 2018, I was actually out here in Boston with the academy team that I had set up.

We brought the kids out, toured around the Northeast.

We were looking at colleges, we were talking about college placement.

You know, we visited some Division 3 schools in Maine.

We got to work out on my old college floor.

We got to watch games.

We got to spend time with the.

With the Celtics at their practice facility, you know, and I get a call while I'm out here in Boston, and it's from the athletic director or the director of sport, as they say in England, from the university, saying, look, the.

The head coach of the university program here as.

As resigned from the job.

Would you be interested in taking it on?

And I kind of just.

I said, yeah, you know, and I had a ridiculous amount of things going on with my company, the.

The junior club, you know, just trying to spin all these different plates and.

And again, you know, for Me, it's, I just.

Because of what had happened to me a year or two earlier, you know, I just.

I wanted to make sure that I was doing everything I could every day to do something for others, right?

To maximize each day, making sure I'm pouring into as many people as I could.

So I took on the role of interim head coach.

They were going to look to hire someone at the end of that year, but I'd done pretty decent job.

I wouldn't say they got the results that they had wanted.

Obviously, you walk into a situation like that and you inherit a team, right?

And it was none of the, none of the players that I had recruited, but I spent that whole year kind of building the program for the following year.

So I'd done all the recruitment.

You know, we managed to win three years in the women's professional league and it was three wins more than anyone was expecting us to get.

And you know, you find out a lot about yourself during that time when you, when you're not winning many games, right, and you're trying to keep the players positive and upbeat and you're trying to find ways to keep the players engaged.

You know, they're coming into practice and I've got to give them massive credit for being with me on that journey that first year.

You know, they, they showed up every day, they continued to work and we got better as the year went on.

But you know, like I said, I'd done all the recruitment and I'd set this thing up for success in the following year.

And at the end of the season, I had to go through the interview process and I sat down and interviewed for the job.

And I think a lot of the things that I had done prior to taking on the role at the University of Essex aligned with a lot of their objectives.

You know, they wanted a performance pathway, they wanted access to the community.

You know, they wanted an academy program because it fit right under the senior teams, right?

So it, so it made sense.

And so they, they hired me, they gave me the, they gave me the full time position.

First thing I did when I got into the role was made sure that we had a full time assistant coach because previously there wasn't.

There was just one coach who was responsible for the men's and women's team.

And it was just, it was too much, you know, so we hired an assistant coach, very good coach who's still there now he's head coach in their men's program.

And, and to be honest with you, the five years that I was at Essex in that role of head of performance, like I was able to live out a professional dream, man, I really was.

You know, I think when I started coaching, I think the goal was to somehow get back to the States, you know, and try and get into college basketball.

But for me being at Essex, this was, this was the closest thing to that.

And I had a blank canvas, right.

And I could create this program how I saw it, right.

I had a vision for it.

I wanted it to be something like a collegiate program in the, in the U.S.

you know, strength and condition in individual workouts, daily team practices.

We ended up having a mental performance support staff around it.

We utilized a lot of the resource that we had on the university campus.

You know, like the human performance unit where we would test, test the athletes, jump on the jump plates, right, Just to, just to see the fatigue levels.

We did, we did.

They would do urine testing just to check the hydration levels, making sure the players are hydrated.

And it was just, you know, you learn about budgets, you know, fundraising, having to go out and raise, raise money to, to get your team to where you need it to be, right.

The recruitment side of things, like I'm.

A lot of the players that I recruited during my time at Essex were players that played Division 1 basketball, you know, and it was a unique situation there at Essex because we could recruit these players to come in, do their masters, play for the university, but we had these professional teams as an outlet.

So it was a way for these players to get their foot in the door for other opportunities.

So it was, it was a really, really good experience and it's one that I'm forever, forever grateful for the staff and all the players that were with me along that journey.

I think you learn how to build a successful program and it's not skipping steps.

It's very process driven, focusing on the day to day, being able to do.

It again in your home country and sort of to get kids an opportunity to follow in your footsteps, I'm sure was really, really special.

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How does the opportunity at IMG get your attention?

And then what's the decision making process for eventually taking a job in Florida at img?

So, so I told you, I went back to school and I did my mba, right?

At the University of Essex.

Yes, sir.

So when I, when I was doing my mba, I actually met my wife at the university and she was doing her PhD.

She's an American, she's a former Division 1 player, she played at Iona.

I mean, she's someone you might want to get on the show.

I mean, she's got some great stories from being a player to now.

And she was studying sports psychology and her whole PhD was around the pregame speech and the impact it has on performance.

Us coaches, we think whatever we say is gold, right?

In that pregame we give these great monologue speeches, you know, but actually, you know, has anyone done any real research and, and looked into, does it, does it have an impact?

What really has an impact?

So that's, that's what a whole study was on.

And, and we got together and two years later we were married.

And around 20, 22, she was just coming towards the end of her Ph.D.

and there was a job opportunity here at IMG for the assistant head of Mental Performance.

So, so she put her name in the hat, she applied for it, she went through the whole interview process and in, in the July, she was offered the job.

And it was just kind of took us both by surprise, I think at the time.

And we said, look, if, if this is something you want to do, let's, let's fly out there for 10 days, let's have a look at the area, let's see if it's somewhere, you know, you really want to be and if it's somewhere we can, we can try and make a life for ourselves.

And so we came out for 10 days, you know, and come on, man, you flying into Florida, you leaving England where it's, you know, ridiculously cold, the weather's miserable all year round and we're walking into this climate, you know, where we were 10 minutes away from, from the Gulf of Mexico there, you know, and all the beaches and it was just, it was beautiful and it was a no brainer, but we had to.

For me, you know, I looked at, you know, who's involved in the basketball program here and you know, do I have any connections or any links into the, into the program?

Could someone introduce me?

And so it was actually my college coach who I played for who knows or who knew, the director at the time, the director of basketball, which was Brian Nash, and put us in touch and we got speaking while I was out here and you know, Brian, Brian was excellent.

You know, he obviously, he couldn't make any promises as to a job, but you know, he said that there's, there's summer camp opportunities that come up, you know, apply and go from there and kind of, that's what I did, but I had to wait.

So my wife moved out here in the August of 2022.

It was just, it was a wild year.

She went from finishing her PhD to moving across the world to start a new job.

I couldn't be out here at the time because I didn't have, I didn't have a green card.

And in the August of 2022 we also found out we were pregnant.

So I had to go back, I had to go back to the UK and leave my pregnant wife here.

And I kind of explained to the people back in the UK because obviously I was still under contract with the Rebels.

I'd done all the recruitment for this year and I kind of told them what the situation was and they knew, you know, I was going to have to get back at some point when the baby was being, was going to be born.

And that was, that was the goal.

And it got to Christmas time, my green card came through and just after Christmas I handed in my resignation at Essex.

It was, it was an easy decision because it's a no brainer, right?

But it was the hardest part was leaving the players that I had brought in and recruited, that I'd built relationships with.

You feel like you're walking out on a team halfway through, but they were awesome.

They supported me every step of the way.

It was an emotional moment when I had to tell them that I was leaving.

But it was an easy decision in the sense that I knew I had left the program better than I found it.

Right.

And really, really proud of everything that we did and built and, and now to this day, like it's, it's, it's as strong as it's ever been.

You know, there's more kids playing than there's ever been.

Senior teams are doing really well and I think that's testament to the five years that, that me and the staff put in there.

So really, really proud of the work.

And so I came out here in time for my son to be born.

He was born in the March and around April time I put in my job application for summer camp coach.

So I was hired As a summer camp coach, just, just focused on, on doing the work.

I wasn't really thinking about a full time job, if I'm being honest.

I was, I was so incredibly grateful just to be back on the floor and coaching again after being out of it for a few months.

Just focused on pouring into the campus, trying to build as many relationships as I could with the coaches.

You know, IMG is a, is a unique environment.

You know, it is basketball heaven, man.

For me, there's nothing like it.

You know, I share an office with seven other head coaches.

All have unique backgrounds, all have unique experiences.

You know, some have, some have coached at the college level, some have built their own programs.

And it's just, it's, it's an unreal place.

You know, there's nothing like it in the world.

And you know, just, just being around these guys and the experience and knowledge that's here, you know, I was just soaking it all up, I think in that summer.

And like I said, there was no, for me, there was no hidden agenda or any sort of outcome that I, that I wanted.

I wasn't promised anything.

I was just trying to focus on doing the best I could and being, and enjoying where, where my feet were at and being incredibly grateful to be here.

And the end result was at the end of the summer, they offered me a head coaching position.

So, who was instrumental in helping you to get the position?

So, so really it was down to Brian Nash, who was our director of basketball at the time.

You know, he, after a long summer of camp, I think it was like 11 weeks, he called me up to the office and just kind of said, you know, we would like to offer you a full time position.

And you know, I jumped at the, jumped at the opportunity.

You know, it just.

Everything is, it's right here.

Everything's great.

You know, in terms of the level of support that you get, the amount of coaches that you're around.

You know, I saw it as an opportunity where I'm going to grow personally and professionally.

And it also aligns with my own, you know, my passion and my purpose in terms of having an impact and helping others.

Tell me about.

And this is something that I've talked with numerous guys from img just in terms of the sort of think tank situation.

You mentioned it earlier about sharing an office with all the other head coaches, but I know everybody that I've talked to has expressed to me just how valuable it is to have all the great minds inside the building that you guys can all bounce ideas off of each other.

So just dive into that a little bit more and tell me how valuable that resource has been and kind of how you guys utilize that.

Yeah, I mean, it's, it's incredibly invaluable.

I mean, just, just in terms of, you know, you walk through the gym in the morning and you know, you've got coach Jimmy Carr, who's working with the post grads, who's a former college coach himself, delivering a high level practice.

You know, every time you walk through the gym and someone else is on the floor, you're learning something new, you know, whether it's Coach Carr, Coach Rhodes, Coach Tebow with the middle school, like there's always an opportunity to learn, you know, and it's just, it's such a fantastic environment.

And like I said before, like, I share, I share an office with six other varsity head coaches.

All have unique backgrounds and experiences in the game and, you know, constantly picking each other's brains or asking questions and, you know, talking about the things that we like that we don't like, you know, things that we would do differently, you know, and again, it's just, you're going to grow, you're going to get better in this environment.

And I think for me, I just, I soak it all up because for the longest time being overseas, you know, I just, I felt so isolated as a young head coach, you know, and now I'm in this environment surrounded by these, these amazing minds, basketball minds, you know, I'm, I'm absolutely loving it.

One of the things that I always find fascinating with a place like img, obviously the kids that come there have aspirations as individual players, whether that's to play in college or you get up to the highest level of the players who are coming to img, those guys have aspirations to play at the pro level.

And yet you as a head coach are still tasked with not only improving them as individual players, but also trying to win games and put together a cohesive team that is going to work together and teach those kids how to make great teammates and all those kinds of things.

So how do you balance out as a head coach?

The desire of the players individually to improve their game and yet also getting them to buy into a team concept.

It seems like again, those two things, you have to walk that fine line, that delicate balance.

How do you handle that situation?

Oh, I love it.

That's a great question.

I think, I think for me, I want to try and simplify it as best I can.

A lot of the players that come here, if not all of the players Come here, have aspirations to play at the highest level.

And for me, the response is always going to be, if this is where you want to go, then we need to make sure that your actions and everything that you're working towards align with what you say you're doing.

And it's holding them account to that standard.

You know, we, we want to develop players.

You know, when, when college coaches come down to recruit, we want them to know what sort of kids you're recruiting.

You know, you're gonna, you're gonna recruit kids that have the right mindset, they're gonna be motivated for the love of the game, right?

They're gonna be coachable, they're gonna have a growth mindset, they're gonna be always open to constructive criticism.

We, we want to develop the kids that are self, aware, knowing who they are, knowing their strengths and their weaknesses, just in the same way as coaches.

Like, you know, we want to be self, aware, right?

We should be self aware, you know, developing the skill sets, right?

Being, being competent, you know, mastering the three offensive skills, like, you know, shooting, passing and dribbling, making sure that they're displaying the right defensive traits, you know, how they guard the ball, making sure they know how to rotate, making sure they understand, positioning themselves to rebound, developing their basketball iq.

You know, we want to teach kids, and not every kid that comes out of here is going to have an opportunity to be professional, but the way in which we teach, you know, we want them to be professional, you know, be disciplined in your approach to the game.

You know, sacrifice certain things now for what you want to do in the future.

You know, be appreciative, right?

Like it's easy to get caught up here.

You can kind of get lost.

But realize where you are, recognize where you are.

You're in the number one sports academy in the world.

You know, express gratitude, be thankful for this opportunity that not, not many people have.

You know, be the total athlete.

Not, not just talking about the encore stuff, but making sure they're focusing on their mind and their body and their off court responsibilities.

You know, we want to develop character, right?

Having, having integrity, leadership, being respectful, respecting yourself, respecting the team, respecting the process, right?

Grit, teaching the kids perseverance.

Like we've just been through, you know, a tough schedule right before Thanksgiving, you know, where we lost a couple games on the trot, you know, heads were starting to hang, you know, and the conversation that we had each day was, was about the things that power progress and the big thing that powers progress is perseverance, right?

Being Able to keep working towards something despite failures or not getting the results you want.

You know, it's easy just to hang your head and give up and quit.

You know, real success happens when you can really push through and persevere against all that stuff and, and just being relentless, just being relentless.

And, you know, it's a, it's a unique environment.

We get to coach every day and I think, I think we have a great opportunity to pour into the kids and, you know, it's trying to teach them the right way of doing it and what's going to help them become successful.

Not necessarily just in terms of basketball, but actually in life beyond the court as well.

Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, I think that opportunity.

Right.

Because especially when you're in a situation where you guys are at, where you're not just necessarily getting the kids for an hour and a half during practice every day, you're getting to see those kids through multiple settings because they're living there.

And so I know that the amount of resources that you have for your players and your students at IMG is just immense for them in terms of what they can access that maybe a kid at an ordinary public high school somewhere doesn't have access to.

So tell me a little bit about some of those extra things that at IMG and how you guys make use of.

Again, whether it's the mental training that you talked about with your wife being a part of that and just the weight room and all the kinds of things that you guys have extra that enable you to be able to provide the kind of experience that you're just talking about with you, with your players.

Yep.

So.

So it's the, we call it the holistic approach and it's all these support areas that basically go around the athlete.

You know, if you were looking at the individual athlete, you know, we look at all the areas that they need that are going to help them become successful.

Whether that's mental performance, whether it's leadership, nutrition and strength and conditioning.

And alongside of that, we have out, we have our amazing sports medicine team.

There to obviously help keep the players.

Injury free or treat injuries when, when they happen.

But it's a unique environment.

You know, they have access to, we call it apd.

We have access to apd.

You know, every day the kids have an opportunity to meet with, with the mental performance coach, not just as a group, in a group setting or a team setting.

They can meet with them individually and just being able to access that resource at such a young age and become more self aware about the Mind and the importance that it plays in sport is unreal.

Thinking back to when I was coming up, we spend so much time developing our bodies in the weight room and our skill on court, but very little is done to.

To really develop the brain and understand certain emotions and being able to rely on certain tools that you need to perform.

I think we do an amazing job here in terms of delivering mental performance.

I have to say that as well, because my wife's now the head of mental performance.

You better pump that part out.

Absolutely.

You don't want to hear about that later.

No, I mean, I think there's no question when you talk about the difference between a player coming up in the game today and the way that we train them and the way that players prepare to be at their best.

Certainly when you were playing, and I go back even a lot further than you do, the mental side of the game was kind of, I think, left to you and your own devices.

You had to figure it out.

And there were guys who were mentally tough and there were guys who weren't, and it didn't have anything to do with somebody helping them to do it one way or the other.

It was just.

You kind of tried to figure it out.

And today, obviously, there's so much more in terms of just the support, not only for players building the mental aspect of their performance, helping to perform better, but, of course, then you have the.

Just the mental health side of it.

And, you know, there's.

I think, one of the things that people outside of the world of sports, I don't think they necessarily understand.

And I think even at young ages, as players are coming up through grassroots basketball and even into high school basketball, I think you.

A lot of times people don't understand the mental pressure and strain that players are under.

And I think it goes to every player on the roster.

You think about, okay, the player who's a star, like, what kind of mental strain do they have?

Well, they got to perform every day at their very best, or their team's probably not going to win.

And then you have, well, what about the guy who never plays?

You know, what's the stress on him?

And, well, guess what?

That kid wants to play.

And every day they're trying to figure out why they don't play, and they're trying to do the things that they need to do.

And there's just.

I don't care what position you are on the roster, everybody faces that.

That mental game of trying to get the best out of yourself.

And for you as a coach, obviously, you're trying to get the best out of your players and help them to perform, whether it's in practice, whether it's in games, whether it's in the classroom, and whether it's eventually in their career that they choose to be at their very best.

And it just, it is.

When you think about how important the mind is and how we perform and how we feel every day, it's kind of amazing that it took us as long as it did to really realize how important that piece of the game is.

I don't know how you feel about it.

It's huge.

Like you when you were a player, I don't know how you feel about, like, I feel like.

Well, I talk.

I spoke from it hugely, let's put it that.

Yeah, well, I spoke about it earlier.

You know, I didn't have a mental performance coach teaching me to deal with frustrations in the moment, you know, or having that, that tool, that toolkit in my mind that I could rely on, you know, and, you know, it shows.

You know, and we still see it.

Don'T get me wrong, like kids are kids.

We're human beings at the end of the day, like we're going to make mistakes, but my thing to the team is always going to be how we respond to the mistakes is what's going to determine how successful we become.

You know, I can accept mistakes that are going to happen in game, like we all can, like it's, it's going to happen, but we want to see the energy and effort to, to make up for it right in the next play.

You know, don't hang your heads, don't, don't show your palms to the referees.

You know, look, let's be able to move forward to the next play.

So we work closely with the mental performance team, like, you know, with all of our teams leadership and obviously our strength and conditioning, you know, it's all very much aligned for the individual athlete.

So, you know, and us as coaches, you know, our job is to just reinforce those messages that being.

That are being delivered.

Absolutely.

So that's obviously one way that you have evolved as a coach is talking more and being more cognizant of the mental performance.

But when you think back over the totality of your coaching career, how has your coaching methodology, your coaching philosophy changed from when you first started?

Maybe hit on one or two things that you think are the most important, that you've changed and you've improved upon since you started.

So that's a really good question.

I think when I first started coaching I was, I was kind of trying to be like a coach that I had guys that I'd play for previously.

You know, I mean, I was trying to emulate a lot of the stuff that, that I was taught through sessions and, and how it was taught.

And it was, it just, it just wasn't genuine, you know, and it wasn't.

It wasn't until, you know, like I said to you earlier, until I.

Till I.

Till I had that life event that caught.

Caused me to kind of rethink what I was doing and really kind of look at my purpose, that I kind of, you know, just kind of found my best self, really my genuine self, you know, developed my own coaching philosophy, which is always going to be about players first and serving them to the best I can and making sure I'm putting them in positions to be successful.

I'm a believer that X's and O's are going to change.

Right?

The games change so much over the, over the years.

There's always new stuff coming out, but at the forefront of it, for me, it's always going to be about the people and putting them and putting them first.

All right, so we talked a little bit about just how valuable the resource is at img, just to have all the great basketball minds that you have there.

In addition to that, when you think about your ability to grow and improve as a coach, how do you do that?

Where do you go?

What's your process for improvement?

Besides, again, sitting in on practices and things at IMG and picking the brains that people that you work with, where else do you go?

How else do you try to improve your craft as a coach?

I think you have to know yourself.

Knowing what you don't know, knowing that there's a hell of a lot out there that you still need to know and learn.

But I also think a big part of it is just being grateful.

Right?

Being grateful allows you to learn.

I believe.

I mean, for me, every day I drive up to the gates of IMG and I get this real wave of gratitude and fulfillment that washes over me.

Could also be the warm weather.

But.

I've dedicated myself to this craft since retiring from playing, and not once have I considered another profession.

Now with that, you know, I believe I have a growth mindset.

Like, I don't want to be stale.

I want to stay relevant.

I want to stay current.

You know, I want to know what the latest trends are.

I'm going to continue to learn.

I've got great people around me that are always going to challenge me.

Like Kevin Sutton is our technical director.

He's, he's amazing.

Like, you couldn't ask for a better mentor.

And, and also coach Gillian, Mike Gillian, you know, former college coach Mike Kelly, former college coach Bob Simmons, former college coach.

We've got all this knowledge around us, you know, and, and I can go in their office whenever I want and just sit down and pick their brains on certain things or how they deal with these, these situations, you know, and like I said, I haven't, not once since I started this profession have I considered another job.

You know, you often hear guys like, oh, you know, I could just do an office job, fine.

Not me.

You know, the passion and the purpose that I found in helping others keeps me committed to what I'm doing.

You know, it's certainly not been easy by any, by any means over the years, but the belief in what I'm doing keeps me going.

You know, I think back to my dad, man, he used to say things to me all the time.

And you know what, it's like, you're sitting at the dinner table, your dad's saying stuff.

A lot of time it's going over your head.

But there's this thing just, I'm reminded of all the time.

And it's like he used to say, when you do a job you love, you never work a day in your life.

And for me, Mike, I think I've been on scholarship my entire life, man.

Like, I'm, I'm truly, truly grateful to be able to do what I'm, what I'm doing.

And those words hold true for me.

You know, navigating the ups and downs.

You know, I love this thing.

You know, you're going to, there's going to be challenges, you're going to have success, but the time that you spend with the players and the staff and other people around, it just, just reinforces the love for what I'm doing.

Let me ask you this from a passion standpoint, I'm just curious because I think it's interesting to talk to different people about how they come and transition from playing to coaching.

So when you transition from playing, which obviously, as we talked about earlier, your passion for playing and your single mindedness of what you wanted to do from the time you started playing, you were obviously very passionate about the game as a player.

When you transition to coaching, was that passion immediately equal?

Was it the.

Did it feel the same?

No.

Did it feel different?

How did it just.

I struggled.

To the point where you are now?

No, I struggled at first.

I'll be honest.

About it.

I struggled to understand why some of the players couldn't do the things that I was able to do.

And I think players nowadays are more skilled than they've ever been.

You know, they've got more access to stuff than we ever had coming out, you know, and, and it bothered me.

And I remember having a conversation with my coach, the guy that I was working for at the time, and he said, look, man, they're not you.

You know, I mean, they're not you.

And it just kind of hit home, you know, and yeah, I just, you try to treat everyone individually and try and meet them where they're at and, you know, build, build those relationships and try and understand how you can best.

Help and serve them.

Yeah, it's really, it didn't happen over, Sorry.

It didn't happen overnight, though, man.

It, you know, probably took me four or five years before I really got to it.

And like I said, it wasn't until I lost my dad that I really started to reevaluate things deeply and, you.

Know, come to, come to where I'm at now.

I think understanding that why of this is what I do and this is why I do it, I think once you kind of wrap your head around that and, and it becomes clear to you, then it becomes the passion, it's much easier for that to show itself.

And for you to feel it.

And again, just listening to you talk and having you share the things that you shared about just, again, how grateful you are and how much you love what you get to do every day.

I mean, that look, when anybody who, out there who's played sports, who's had a dad that's been involved in supporting them and being a part of their athletic journey, I think we all have things that our dad has said to us over the course of time that, like you said, there's probably a million things and I, I, I probably only remember two or three that, but those are two or three things that now I've probably remembered for, you know, 40 years, 45 years, right.

That he said that those things continue to guide me in my life and move me forward.

And so I think that's a powerful, it's a powerful reminder for not just parents, but for coaches, certainly, right.

Because we say things all the time and most of the time it doesn't stick.

But there are a lot of things that do stick that we don't even remember we said.

And some kid somewhere that played for us is carrying around something that Tom Sadler said to him 10 years ago that maybe is still influencing them.

Maybe it was something good, that and positive, which you hope.

And maybe I don't know about you, but I have things that coaches or people said to me that were.

That were negative that I kind of used as fuel to, you know, keep my fire burning and keep going after things.

So it's important.

I think it's always a less a good lesson to remember that the things that we say, you got to be.

You got to be conscious of what you're.

Of what you're saying to players because again, they remember that stuff and they can have a big impact long after you're.

Your personal touch with them is long gone.

Yeah, absolutely.

And that kind of is an indicator of how successful you really are as a coach and as a human being.

Right.

It's not so much the wins and the losses in the now, but who Those kids become 10 years down the road, how successful they become.

And for me, that's more important than anything.

No question.

All right, Tom, let's wrap it up with a two part question.

Part one, when you think ahead over the next year, what do you see as being your biggest challenge?

And then the second part, we've already, I think, answered it, but I'm going to ask you to put it into a concise.

A concise answer.

Your biggest joy.

So your biggest challenge and then your biggest joy in what you get to do every day.

Okay.

Biggest.

Biggest challenge is probably challenging myself to get out my comfort zone a little bit more.

Like things like this.

This is the first time I've ever done anything like this.

Hopefully, hopefully it's come across relatively clear and I've been articulate with what I've been trying to say and people are able to take something from it.

But I need to challenge myself to speak publicly a little bit more.

Again, just, just being your own head coach and on your own for so long and, you know, you kind of get caught up in a lot of the day to day things.

But again, being here at ING Academy, you know, it's you.

You can't not be in this environment and not want to grow and continue to get better.

It's infectious.

You know, I mean, so I think biggest challenge for me is just pushing myself outside my comfort zone a little bit.

You know, trying to do a few more of these, these podcasts and, you know, just get out my comfort zone in terms of.

Sorry, what was the other question?

Biggest joy.

Biggest joy, man.

My biggest joy is probably.

It's not.

Probably it is going in to get my son every morning when he wakes up.

Yeah, honestly, just you, you know, it's, it's best, best feeling in the world, man.

He's, he's standing up in his cop, you know, his arms are stretched out ready to get picked up, you know, and yeah, that, that moment for me is, is the biggest joy each day.

Aside from, aside from coming to work here, obviously and pulling through those gates, you know, I just really, really thankful and really grateful for, for where I'm at.

And, you know, I look forward to every single day because every day, you know, it's something new and just being where my feet are at this moment in time and knowing that right now I'm exactly where I'm supposed to be and embracing it.

Well, I'll tell you one thing, Tom, you have a incredible journey ahead of you with your son.

There is nothing that I've ever done in life that compares to being a parent and whatever your kids end up doing.

And I can tell you that you'll have no idea what they're going to do or who they're going to be or what they're going to like.

And they're all, if you have end up having more, then they're all, they're all different.

And again, it is, it is an incredible adventure every single day.

And it doesn't, it doesn't matter if they're, if they're 1, they're 5, they're 10, they're 20.

You still feel the same way about them the way you feel when you walk in and see your sons outstretched arms and reaching for you.

It continues to go the same way as a parent, I can tell you that.

So I can completely relate to that being your biggest joy because I would say that's right there for me at the top, without question.

All right, before we get out, I want to give you a chance to share how people can reach out to you, get in touch with you.

If you want to share, email, social media, whatever you feel comfortable with.

And then after you do that, I'll jump back in and wrap things up.

Okay, you can email me@tomsadler21icloud.com or you can follow me on Twitter, which is adler21.

Perfect.

Tom, cannot thank you enough for taking the time out of your schedule today.

Really appreciate it.

And to everyone out there, thanks for listening and we will catch you on our next episode.

Thanks.

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