Greetings friends. My name is Jess McLean and I'm here to provide you with some blueprints

of disruption. This weekly podcast is dedicated to amplifying the work of activists, examining

power structures and sharing the success stories from the grassroots. Through these discussions,

we hope to provide folks with the tools and the inspiration they need to start to dismantle

capitalism, decolonize our spaces and bring about the political revolution that we know

we need. Palestinian workers have issued calls for solidarity, specifically to their fellow

workers inside the imperialist core. That is most of us. They are asking work be done to

enlist the labor movement in ending not just the current siege on Gaza, but the occupation

of Palestine. These next two guests are answering some of those key demands, which are, at their

core, economic disruptions aimed to isolate Israel politically. and cut off their well-funded

supply of arms. We talked about the blockade of Incas in Toronto on our episode, Shutting

It Down for Palestine. It was an action organised by a coalition of workers from different organisations

who stood side by side outside the facility where technology, used in Israeli aggression,

is made. We will hear what that was like first hand and how they got there in terms of strategy.

But we'll also hear the ideology behind an internationalist struggle. for human emancipation, one that

focuses on disarming the imperialist powers rather than negotiate with them. Once we get

there and agree that an escalation of tactics is needed, the question becomes how to generate

the critical mass needed to really disrupt that system, to stop the bombs on Gaza and liberate

Palestine for our own liberation. A key component is clearly organized labor. Globally, workers

are taking a stand and refusing to transport Israeli weapons or refusing to offload them

at major ports. Just as I record this intro, activists in Vancouver are occupying the offices

of Zim, Israel's largest shipping line that supplies weapons to the IOF. This is part of

the larger block the boat and stop arming Israel actions taking place all across the world.

This week also saw activists in Oakland cling to the side of a ship. loaded with weapons

destined for Israel, a boat that had been used to do the same in the Iraq and Afghanistan

wars. They prevented it from leaving for nine hours. As the boat left, they chanted, we will

see you at the next stop, implying comrades across the water will help stop, or at least

slow, the flow of arms to be used against the Palestinian people. And that's exactly what

has been happening. That same boat was stalled up the coast in Tacoma, Washington. where canoes

used by Coast Salish territory activists were blocking the boat from leaving the port. Workers

in Barcelona have refused to load shipments bound for Israel. Australian activists have

done the same and are planning more for November 11th. This is indeed a global movement. Canadian

workers also have a role to play here too. So we get into that and just how we get them to

come along in such a critical moment in the struggle. against imperialism. So let's get

started. Welcome to the show. Can you introduce yourself please? Hi, I'm Martin. I work as

a caretaker. I'm a rank and file member of Toronto education workers, QP local 4400. And I'm part

of the Communist Workers Circle, communist study group that focuses on blue collar unionized

workers. Hi, my name is Kay. I'm a member of Canada, Philippines solidarity organization,

CPSO. CPSO is a group of non-Filipinos, primarily, who organize in solidarity with the National

Democratic Revolution in the Philippines, against the semi-colonial and semi-feudal control of

the Philippines by imperialist countries, primarily the United States, but also Canada, Japan,

and China as well. And as you know, the United States happens to be also the biggest supporter

of the Zionist entity. known as Israel. So there's certainly a shared struggle between the Filipino

people and Palestinian people. I'm also a campaign co-chair of the International League of People's

Struggle, ILPS Canada, an alliance of anti-imperialist organizations which CPSO is a member of. I

attended INCA's action as a representative of ILPS. Its objectives align with our ongoing

anti-militarization campaign. and our support for the rights of Palestinians, including their

right to resist the occupation by any means necessary. Definitely want to ask you about

efforts for revolution in the Philippines. But you brought up the Incas protests, so let's

actually start there because when I cast out a net, you folks came in, I needed to talk

to people who had escalated the actions in terms of ending the siege on Gaza. We've seen mass

actions, we've seen sit-ins. We've seen all kinds, but a blockade in front of a weapons

manufacturer here in Toronto, for me, kind of signaled an escalation, a much needed escalation.

And we'd seen similar actions, a lot of them in the United Kingdom. And there were some

really telling images that came from those that I found inspiring. And I think it answers the

call, both for the Palestinian resistance to stop the bombs. We can plead with our politicians,

but in the end they want the bombs to stop falling on them. I think folks can understand why that

particular manufacturer was targeted. But when you say that Action K fit with the ILPS' mandate,

do you want to get into that a little bit more in terms of what led you to that particular

blockade that day? Yeah, so this action was in response to a call from Palestinian workers,

which is a coalition of Palestinian trade unions and community organizations. In their statement,

they say, Palestinian trade unions call on our counterparts internationally and all people

of conscience to end all forms of complicity with Israel's crimes. Most urgently, halting

the arms trade with Israel. as well as all funding and military research. It goes on to list the

demands of these five of them. One is to refuse to build weapons destined for Israel. And second

is to refuse to transport weapons to Israel. And third is to pass motions in their trade

unions to this effect. And four, to take action against complicit companies involved in implementing

Israel's brutal and illegal siege, especially if they have contracts with your institution.

Five. pressure governments to stop all military trade with Israel, and in the case of the US,

funding to it. So I think what's really important in this list of demands is that we have these

institutions in Canada that are either directly responsible or complicit in the enabling of

the genocide in Palestine. We operate under the understanding that Zionism is a product

of imperialism. Like I said previously, it's... The United States is the biggest supporter

of so-called Israel, but Canada is deeply complicit in it, to say the least. Canada is an imperious

country, as Lenin defined it. I'm not going to list them all, the qualifications of what

an imperious country is, but you know, yeah. Yeah, export of capital, right, as opposed

to commodities. Importantly, the dividing up of the world. It's a contest for hegemony and

domination. know, some of the biggest capitalist state. No, we've made that case here on the

show and I think the audience would mostly agree with you. I mean, we use colonial tactics at

home and abroad. Because I think like there's a lot of people that we're encountering in

discussions that don't really, they don't fully understand Canada's complicity. I think because

they can't understand its motivation. But it's because we don't have a real understanding

of our, the level of arms manufacturing that we do here, or the extent that the Canadian

government will act on behalf of capital, right? Everyone's always looking for like the Canadian

reason, like why would Canada back Israel? Like what is the tie there? And why would they do

what we say that they're doing in South America? And it's to facilitate mining, to increase

our arms trade, right? We already, what was it, 2022, $21 million from the Canadian. arms

manufacturers, you know, exported to Israel. I just want to add another number to backup

what Kay is saying when he says that the US is a huge supporter of Israel and their military.

They call it defense spending, but we won't call it that here. We know better. 55% of US

foreign military aid, 55% of all the money that they throw out to armed groups everywhere,

55% of it goes to Israel. I thought that was astonishing. And so when folks ask like, what

role can the West play? Like, what are all these protests doing? What would a Canadian politician

even do? Like, they just can't remove themselves that easily. You know, they're intrinsically

tied. So I appreciate Kay making that point. Yeah, I think like our neighbors, I had my

neighbor just, I come out and he's like, what are we gonna do? What's Canada's role in this?

And I went off, but I felt like there's probably a lot of them out there that just think this

is none of our business, you know, but. It's big business here. I'm going to just hop to

Martin. The Incas protest was a solidarity action, right? It was a bit of an alliance because

I know that the labor for Palestine was also there. Labor against the arms trade was there.

It was a real collection of folks. That's kind of unusual. I think for such a subversive action,

right? It's easy to get everyone to come out to a rally, but it's hard to convince people

to put their name on. something more disruptive than that, something that might get bad press,

might end up in arrests. That's a jump that not everybody's willing to make yet. But what

was it like for your folks getting involved with this and the reasons behind it? Yeah,

thank you. The big three groups organizing this, so far as I could tell, were Labor for Palestine,

Labor Against the Art of Interest Trade, and World Beyond War. The way this was organized

was very like point to point, people who had other people's signal, contact, and who you

knew from actions, getting into touch with each other and seeing who it is we could get out.

Part of I think what made this coalition, what made all these groups come together is the

fact that it was very much the. right up of the action, what it is you were told is like,

you're showing up here. I wasn't told I was told about a week out. I wasn't told it was

an arms factory. But due to the level of secrecy and everything, I figured that's what it was

or something along those lines. But the groups were not advertising themselves very heavily

in that. One can understand that. So you were you were willing to show up, right? Put it

on the line without needing full details. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we all know what's

going on with Israel bombing Gaza relentlessly, genociding, trying to, it seems, liquidate

Gaza. I mean, that has to be stopped. We have to do everything in our power to stop that

here with the massive amount of military aid that Canada gives, as well as other aid. And

Incas is one of many points that is doing that. I approach politics and anti-capitalism with

the understanding to boil it down very heavily that capitalism only cares about money. There's

only so much that begging a politician is going to do if you're not messing up their friend's

money in the background. I mean, I think it's a similar approach we have to take to this

that we have to take to strike action, right? That you have to fuck up their money so bad

that they realize it is not profitable for them to keep doing this stuff. And that is... the

goal and the hope and I think the approach we need to be looking at going forward in trying

to lay out Palestinian solidarity and solidarity with oppressed peoples of the world. Awesome.

We've brought it up a few times. Let's focus on labor's role in all of this, right? So we

see the two of the main groups that organized that blockade against Incas are related to

labor. Kind of, are they official caucuses within the labor or just kind of loosely formed by

interested individuals? I don't know, we should probably have them on here to answer that.

But either way, they're unionized workers that think, and I'm sure you're going to agree with

me, Kay, and them, that labor has a role to play in dismantling the arms trade and fighting

imperialism. Tell me, Kay, you got a call from workers in Palestine to take, you know, they

had clear demands. And one of those was to pass motions within the trade unions, right? To

get... unions officially to take a position on this. Is that doable? Is that work that's

being done? Or is it going to be kind of more of like a wildcat? We're seeing a lot of longshoremen

unions refusing to offload weapons destined for Israel disruptions in that way. Can we

see Canadian Labor Act this way? Well, I echo what the comrades said earlier about really

you got to hit where it hurts the most. for the ruling class, the wallet. It's really essential

strategically and tactically to target these corporations, these arms manufacturers who

are getting rich off the misery and the genocide of not only the Palestinians but oppressed

masses of the world. And at the level of the principle, I echo what Gassan Qanafani said.

He was a poet and writer. and revolutionary activist for the liberation of Palestine, said,

quote, The Palestinian cause is not a cause for Palestinians only, but a cause for every

revolutionary, wherever they are, as a cause of the exploited and oppressed masses in our

era. This remains true today. It has been over half a century since he said this. But this

era he talks about is the era of imperialism and what Lenin called the highest stage of

capitalism. The liberation of Palestine would make a massive contribution to the liberation

of the working class and oppressed people around the world. Mentally or materially? Both, I

would say. I think it would deal a huge blow to the US imperialism and the creation of the

single secular democratic state. for everyone in the Palestine would really, to say the least,

loosen the grip of the US-led Western imperialism in the Middle East, West Asia, but world as

a whole. It's nice to think about, isn't it? Like, just sit on that for a second, because

I felt good to hear we're so caught up right now in saving Gaza that I think envisioning

what... a free Palestine means to the entire world at this point, was kind of hard to think

about until Kay said that. It would have an immense impact, both a positive one and a negative

one on imperialists. So certainly just wanted to sit on that feeling for just a second because

I think a lot of people agree, well, like they're nodding, right? They're going, absolutely.

It's our duty. Yeah. Yeah, I'm there. I want to figure out how you get people to start doing.

Economic disruption. How you pulling people along to get to that point? Because I think

we're sold on its necessity, but There's courage needed right to realize yeah That's it. Yeah,

and this is like one of these pivotal moments in history that if we did secure a victory

such a visible victory it would be Immeasurably, I don't know how to describe it You guys know

what I'm saying like that It's such an important goal right now and it feels like it is within

our reach right even though it looks awful at the moment. We need more people showing up

at facilities like Incas, you know, and there's an Elbit facility in Nova Scotia and probably

a million other ways that we could get workers to use their power to really grind it to a

halt. How do we get there? Yeah. So to bring it back to the working class, right? As I said,

this is a call directly coming from the Palestinian workers. Even though the Palestinian struggle

is struggle for national liberation, right? It concerns not just the working class, but

you know, farmers and bedouins and you know, just the dispossessed people in general, you

know, if you think about Gaza, the employment, youth unemployment rate is close to 70%. It's

a simple definition of the proletariat or the working class doesn't really fit in. So it

is a sort of like an attempt at broader class alliance and building a united front. The Looking

at a long-term perspective on liberation, not just in Palestine, but around the world, the

working class is the vanguard of socialism. They control the means of production, they

create value. It's really important to situate this in a theoretical perspective in order

to understand the importance of this action being carried out right now to target the economics

of imperialism, to the economics of war. How is it integrated? How is the war industry?

you know, arms manufacturer integrated into the workings of imperialism. So on how to get

everyone or get more workers out, get the workers, the organizations of labor involved in it,

we first off, we've seen labor is capable of getting involved, not so much in Canada, as

far as I know, the groups, the labor groups that were involved in this are like, they're

not official or under the protection of the larger labor bodies. These are groups. As far

as I'm aware, mostly of staffers and white collar professionals. So not people on the shop floor

so much, not factory workers or stuff like that, which is where you really need that organization

to hit in order to massively affect these things. Someone from a university can't shut down,

can't go on strike and shut down an arms factory. So a big part of getting this going is getting...

there's understanding these politics to directly to these points, directly to people in factories

that can make that impact. And we've seen that happen in Italy, in Belgium and South Africa.

Belgium, three million workers all encompassed in these massive unions said they are not building

and they are not touching anything going to Israel. Similar in Italy, similar in South

Africa. So it is possible. Now, how it is we get there, I think. The victory for Palestine

is a massive boon for the fight for socialism everywhere. That's a huge part of what keeps

me going. I'm not doing this in charity. I'm not doing this in self-sacrifice. That's involved.

It exists. But I'm doing this in solidarity. I'm doing this because every single blow against

the Canadian imperialist war machine, the NATO imperialist war machine against Israel is a

step towards my own liberation. It's a step towards seeing the friends that I've had since

high school get out of working two jobs. It's a step towards not having my rent and grocery

bill take up, you know, the vast majority of my pay and my life. And I think that's a really

big part of working class politics that a lot of people don't really get at and have a hard

time explaining and seeing. And I think... A large part of that is that they're not necessarily

understanding that. That's why we emphasize, you know, theory and reading so much. Your

brain tells your body what to do. I saw the transition happening. So you're talking about

bringing the knowledge and the politics to the shop floor. I know that you are part of the

communist worker circle reading group. And, you know, we go from blockading weapons manufacturers

to talking about a reading group. Some may think like these are not the same tactics and it's

all part of the same. class war, right? It is part of how you get there. And I think and

I know you know this. I know, you know, people look at Marxist reading groups and roll their

eyes and have some critiques around the accessibility of learning theory. So I'm going to give you

some space to yeah. Oh, yeah, don't you worry. I wouldn't throw something like that and not

let you say but take a moment to kind of talk about the importance of doing the educating

together, you know collectively. So we'll let Kay hit on this as well, because I'm sure part

of the internationalist movement is convincing people it needs to be an internationalist movement

and beyond, right? A lot of people are even afraid of the word revolution. So let me let

you defend your reading group first, because I kind of, you know, threw all that trash that

people probably throw on you. And I'm sure you've heard it. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.

I mean, I completely agree. I did not expect that. That's... My time as a communist has

not been very long now. I got into it, I was introduced to it in the last round of my union

bargaining, and have gotten more and more involved and more studied and active over the time.

So this was like four years ago now. And the first few reading groups I joined really sucked.

It was very much a go read this on your own. and then come back with questions. And then

there's my ADHD blue collar self, eyes crossed staring at this book, trying to not like run

away from it. You need to study buddy. Yeah, well, and this is an issue that a lot of blue

collar workers have. We are used to working with our hands and we are very much kept away

from academics or reading or anything like that. Like I finished high school, I didn't go back

to a book. At that time, it had been two, three years since I'd picked up a book. And so the

approach we have in the Common Worker Circle, the CWC, is we read out loud and we discuss

as we go. It's slow, but as long as you're doing it consistently and you're talking with people,

like you get through it, you get through a lot of reading. The books we're reading, like these

are dense, dense books. So if you're staying consistent with them, you can actually get

through a whole lot of theory with that very quickly. The other thing it really does, which

can be a bit of an issue with like an academic approach to this study, is it keeps us from

kind of learning this stuff in like hundred year old English, or an academic language or

stuff like that. I like to say we learn at one time. in the language of Marx and then we learn

it another time in the language of the proletariat. I like that. And that's the over the course

of discussion, right? So that you can bring it to the workplace, you can bring it to conversations

at the bar, you can bring it to wherever it is you're at and it doesn't sound or feel alien

to the workers. Like you're trying to indoctrinate people. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and there's like,

there's levels to that, like as you become more accustomed to someone, you don't want to...

like it's never about dumbing it down or anything like that. We trust the working class to be

able to understand this stuff, to be able to take on, you know, a new word here and there

or whatever. Because people inherently feel it, right? Sometimes they just need the words

to explain it, but even when you talk to, you know, your conservative neighbor about issues,

like they feel oppressed, like they talk, they just don't know where to punch. Sometimes,

right? They've been taught to punch down and you know, you got to kind of redirect them

but They they do feel oppressed as workers all of them. Yep. Yes, I can see how people quickly

Come along once You know, they have the theory I paid for my education like I went to political

science is my degree. So I guess we could call those reading circles of sorts, you know, that

isn't accessible for everybody I think a lot of people get frustrated especially when we

talk about the labor movement and why they're not more progressive as a whole, right? As

though it's like some leftist group and not just a representation of a portion of the working

class, right? And so how to bring their politics along is a part of a lot of the discussions,

right? And how we get a general strike when we need it. How do we get more militant leaders

to the top of unions who understand what their role is, what their role is supposed to be,

right? And a lot of that has to do with getting people that political education that they no

longer get. I'll PS in general, but particularly at CPSO, you know, we take political education

very seriously. You know, we sort of inherit that tradition of the revolutionary movement

in the Philippines. Where we do this thing called Eds, which stands for educational discussions.

There are certain texts that all members of the organization have to go through. You know,

read and discuss. One of them is Philippine society and revolution. The Philippines through

a Marxist perspective, how the country developed and how it became colonized, forced by Spain,

the United States, and Japan, back to the United States, and how that revolutionary movement

developed. In response to that, you know, with the desire to create a new society, liberated

Philippines, moving towards socials. And another text is called Araring Activista. In Tagalog,

it means activist studies. It's more a practical text. It's more about organization. It's about

democratic centralism, just the Marxist method of leadership, combining democracy and centralized

leadership, a community system. So this is where we discuss more of what it means to be an activist,

how we should organize, how we should advance the revolution, how do we work with the masses,

and things like that. These are really important we go through. And we also do other like EDs

that are, you know, cater to particular topics like migrant workers, peasants and what have

you, right? So that's the sort of tradition I come out of. And I'm quite proud of that

and really clarified how I think about activism and organizing in general. And another point

that I want to make is that, you know, we've been talking about theory and practice, you

know, how do we synthesize them? How do we, you know, have a clear understanding of its

interrelation, their interrelation. And I just want to say that the practice itself can be

educational. So talking about this particular action, right? Learning on the line, you mean?

Yes, exactly. Putting the boots on the ground and what have you. So this action, like other

actions that I participated in the past, disrupting business as usual really exposes the contradictions

of capitalism, imperialism, and settler colonialism. that are usually hidden under the facade of

normals, these actions really explore them out in the open. At this action, we saw an unhinged

anger of Inca employees and executives. And Fuo happened to be like hardcore pro-Zionist,

terrorizing us, terrorizing the protesters, snatching and destroying our signs and banners.

They actually took our ILPS banner and ripped it apart. And they did that to other... cameras

there as well and lots of pushing and shoving. Not to mention that they all were protected

and escorted by the armed agents of the state, the Toronto police. Despite all the violence

that these Zionists committed against us, it was us, seven of us who got arrested. None

of them, for all the pushing and shoving, none of them got arrested. So obviously don't have

to lecture you about this complicity of the police. Yeah, it was really out in the open.

really exposed it and it was, I think, a big learning moment for all of us. And in a way,

really reenacted the violence Palestinians experience every day inside so-called Israel and the occupied

territories. It's a bit of an exaggeration, I admit, but it does really kind of, to quote

this old slogan by the Weather Underground, you know, bringing the war home, like bringing

the occupation of Palestine back to Canada. Actions like this are hugely educational. It

definitely was educational for me. And yeah, there's a lot we can learn from it. So I think

you've demonstrated, and I know before we started recording, Martin spoke of his experience at

Victoria Park Collegiate protest, counter protest to protect trans youth and had similar reaction

from protesters antagonizing and being protected by police. and then the arrests being one sided.

So certainly anybody who goes to these actions and lives and experiences this, you know, the

mask is gone, right? Quickly, you understand what police are actually there for when you

do experience. I totally understand what you're talking about, but it drives home the point

there that although escalated tactics are needed, community defense actions are needed, they

aren't without risk. because you are going up against an incredible machine, right? And they

all work and connected with one another. And it surprises me the employees that workers

felt the need to do that, you know, like they just had no class consciousness whatsoever.

I mean, it does surprise me and it doesn't but obviously the police responses a surprise me

at all. How do you prepare like let's get a little practical. How do you prepare people

going into these actions? Right? To stay as safe as possible or... It's a tough one, right?

Because when you put that call out, you are asking a lot of people. So I think there is,

as an organizer, I would think it would be an inherent responsibility of mine to at least

adequately prepare them. I know some legal fund solidarity actions are necessary, but I'm talking

about like before the fact. So do either of you have any kind of tips for people? going

to actions that are going to be met with resistance. I mean, all of our actions are kind of now

being met with resistance, but I mean police force, right? So anytime a railway is blocked,

anytime real economic stops are put in, injunctions surely follow and then police action. So Martin.

So I think first and foremost, no one there... Even at the point of getting contacted, no

one there was new to this. I recognize a great number of the faces from previous actions and

this, that, and the other thing. Everyone had the experience to be there. And that was part

of that approach to organizing of going point-to-point. You have to go in with the understanding, you

have to tell people that there's the possibility you get arrested. There is the possibility

that stuff gets violent. This protest was... in some way, the use of cars. So there are

two lines. I was at one that was more involved in blocking cars at the front. I've blocked

a lot of cars in my time. These guys were putting the cars into the line. I have never had a

car make contact with me. It happened three times on this line, as well as one time where

a car sped by so quick within a half meter of one of the... protestors and swerved up onto

the side of the road right next to our lines in front of a police in front of the police.

I also wanted to say I don't as any military office and also in case in Canada does a lot

of like moving money. They have massive armored vehicles, they go pick up ATMs and stuff. They

have a massive security force there, as you'd expect from what I saw the workers that I saw.

that were aggressive. But from what I saw, the workers were sitting across the street. Like,

that's weird, eh? They were not the aggressive ones. It was managers. It was security. It

was lead hands who were really attacking our lives. I was going to say, I won't lie, like

as a worker, if I showed up and there was a picket line across the gate to get in, I'd

be kind of stoked. Right. Like, I mean, that's my personal bias. But yeah, playing into that.

And to your point, though, Martin. You want to bring people along though, right? So yes,

definitely warn people that they're going to be arrested. Having access to someone willing

to act as a legal representative is also kind of critical work to do ahead of time. I'll

warn folks, I mean, back in the day when we used to organize, I mean, like back in G20

days, we would write the number of legal aid on our arm. We now know better not to do that.

you need to memorize a phone number or write it somewhere inconspicuous because police will

use that to target you. But yes, mentally preparing people is important and training people, even

if you feel like they're prepared. But I understand like there's some actions like this where you

really just got to find some trusted individuals. And I think that's quite how the coordinated

sit-ins worked. across Canada, a lot of people are like, why didn't I know about this? I wanted

to do it. And the reality is, is you gotta make sure those are absolutely trusted comrades

that understand the risk and have a modicum of understanding on how to react in those situations,

right? But it is, like if you wanna pull people along, we've gotta make sure like they, they're

not just fired up because they know, but they feel like they're equipped as well. You can't

prepare yourself for anything, but. hearing about the violence on the lines. That has just

been an increasing trend. And then the other big thing is making sure that there's a clear

defined leadership on the lines or in the action, who when you don't know what's going on, what

it is you're supposed to be doing, that you can turn to and, you know, ask what's up. Again,

in the Inca's action, that was the... There were two picket captains we were all instructed

to go to. And that is huge for making it possible for new people to join up. Find that person

with a tattered up flag when things get, get heavy. Find the person with, you know, busted

boots. You know, the type who's been marching and ask them what's up. Well. They usually,

they should be wearing a reflective vest if they know their shit, right? At least. The

bottom line is that there's no like 100% safety, right? Like there's no risk-proof protest action.

I think of what Mao said, revolution is not a dinner party, right? There's always going

to be risk. There's always going to be a risk of arrest, doxing, and what have you. And you

know, certain actions have definitely increased the risk than others. So I think that's the

bottom line. So, you know, it shouldn't really let us paralyze and not do anything. The stake

is really high. However, you know, there are precautions we can take to, you know, to quote

the often used slogan, you know, we keep each other safe. That's the name of our first episode.

Oh, okay. You know, go in groups, don't go alone, you know, especially to actions like this,

right? Have a signal chat. communicate, and have a rendezvous spot, discuss what the plans

are. You know, the recent rallies and marches that I went with my comrades, you know, we

first we gather in a big group and form a like a buddy system, smaller groups, and you know,

we stay together, you know, don't leave each other, don't wander out, just stick together.

You know, it really requires an organization and a collective effort to ensure the security

of your comrades. Yeah, that's what I recommend to do in addition to what you and Martin said

already. Yeah, I will definitely link in the show notes some of our you know, the infographics

that folks have put together for you know, basic safety at protests. I want to go back to something

Kay said at the beginning of the interview, because like I said, I think a lot of people

are sold on the need to escalate actions, right? They've been to a few marches.

The weapons flow has not stopped. And Kay, you mentioned the need to resist by any means necessary.

You can't drop something like that without me giving you the space to explain that. I feel

like I know what you mean. And I feel a lot of people, and we've talked about it on the

show, for people not to shy away from Palestinian right to armed resistance. as part of capitulating

in this moment, as part of just trying to get more people along for the ceasefire. And the

demands to disarm Hamas would be to remove all matter of defense from Palestinians in Gaza.

So we're friends on this front, right? You're not going to find me arguing with you on that

point. But what people are going to hear sometimes, right, is what... has been weaponized against

the left in recent days and weeks, particularly, you know, Fred Hahn has a good high profile

example of then almost being accused of celebrating the most horrific acts of an armed group, any

armed group. Right. And so that makes bringing people along difficult. Right. This the narrative

that's going around Palestinian resistance, right? You've heard it, you've felt it, right?

So it's an uncomfortable place to be right now to assert that point. So expand on it a little

bit. I think it's really important to know, especially now with the barrage of propaganda

coming from the Zionist state and its allies, imperialist allies, media wing. Hamas is only

one organization among others who are resisting the occupation. There are other organizations

that are more secular or even some of them are even more conservative than Hamas. So we have

Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine,

and Islamic Jihad and many others. The Palestinian resistance is a united front. It's a national

united front. They may have some disagreements at the level of ideology, but they all agree

on resisting it. the occupation and the genocide by any means necessary. You know, obviously

by any means necessary goes both ways, right? We all know that there is a variety of tactics

employed to politically isolate the Zionist entity. The point is to make them look unreasonable,

to put it mildly, and you know, they're the ones who are doing aggression. It's becoming

clear and clear every day that they're breaking all international law you can think of. You

know, anyone with any sense of humanitarian conscience would... object to it. But we also

at the same time have to acknowledge that these resistance organizations are at the forefront

of the resistance. You know, there is a telegram channel called Resistance News Network, where

they update every tactical operation. Statements coming out of the political bureau, it's all

there. It's basically my phone has been ringing nonstop. These nonstop notifications coming

from... So if folks haven't subscribed to it, I recommend, highly recommend. signing up to

it. But yeah, these are the people we should be listening to because they're on the front

line. You know, we hear a lot about ceasefire, but at this point, none of these organizations

are endorsing ceasefire. So, you know, which makes sense because, you know, ceasefire implies

there are two belligerent parties involved in armed conflict, which is true to a certain

extent, but it's not that the power dynamic is completely disproportionate. There's only

one side that is committing genocide. You know, there's only one side that are killing thousands

and thousands of children, you know, and they even call it like mowing the grass, right?

Like it's, it's fascism plain and simple. It doesn't really make any sense at this point

to, to ask the resistance to stop firing. We need to demand, stop the bombings of Gaza,

right? Stop the massacres, stop the genocide. I want to just develop on that point for a

second, because that's going to be hard for people to hear, right? Because that's the like

one message you've been able to get liberals, some liberals to utter. And it's like, this

point, right? This like, if we could just get them to demand a ceasefire, you know, they're

good, right? That's all we need Biden to do. One, we shouldn't be celebrating such a small,

small gesture in terms of ending the occupation, but it's that issue of ceasefire or no ceasefire.

Because one would think there is only one call, right? Like it does seem pretty united here

in the West that folks are demanding a ceasefire. But what they're actually asking is for the

bombs to stop dropping on their heads. And folks need to remember in the sense of the occupation,

that's not over. And we still assert that there's the are they have a right to resist the occupation

with arms, with violence. I'm not going to get into what kind of violence that it's an illegal

occupation. They can resist it. If a ceasefire is called the bombs may stop dropping on Gaza,

but the resistance still needs to remain. So what do they do? They will be in violation

of a ceasefire when they start to resist again, when they need to resist again, right? Because

they're gonna need to resist again. They're still under occupation. Life is not going to

get better in Gaza, especially now, right? So the need for a free Palestine has never even

been more important. So there's no way you can turn to this network, right? So thank you for

making that very important point that it's not just Hamas, that it is a coalition of people

of all ideological, because that uses a gotcha. They're very conservative. How can you be backing

Hamas and their resistance and whatnot? We're backing a Palestinian collective resistance

that is determined by Palestinians. And so I understand a ceasefire. This is me like pleading

with the audience because I know that my guests understand. Yes, a ceasefire. Yes, we want

what is happening in Gaza to stop. But you have to understand the importance of K making that

point of how that frames the entire conflict then. Everyone's always searching for a word,

like conflict doesn't seem adequate. It's not a war, right? So a ceasefire technically isn't

the term, but it would really hamper the ability for Palestinians to resist after that. And

it would only take the smallest fucking excuse from Israel to say that the ceasefire had been

broken and then, and then whatever they do would be justified fully, right? Cause it would be

like, they broke the ceasefire. We finally agreed to that. We were reasonable. They would come

off looking reasonable. and they would be able to continue their erasure of Gaza after that.

Because the armed resistance will not stop. Even if some leaders get into a room and sign

ceasefire papers, or if that's how it fucking happens, I don't even know these days, right?

You know, that won't matter to the people of Palestine who are losing their land in the

West Bank and are continually confined in Gaza. Especially now you've got to picture Gaza,

it's cut in half. Israel's bragged this morning about cutting it in half. So they won't ever

relent that line. you are going to have a north and south Gaza if they even let Palestinians

back in the north. And so surely, surely armed resistance will be necessary. I didn't know

if we'd get around to that point. We've kind of been tossing it around on the show, but

Kay you really set us up to kind of get at that. And again, it's one of those, another uncomfortable

spots because we feel like we're building on ceasefire language, right? We're trying to

get everyone to come to that point, but that point isn't enough. Right. Linda Sarsour, she

had a great speech that I screen recorded because, you know, it did something for me there. But

she's like, after the park, you know, after the ceasefire, you cannot turn your back on

us. We are still here. We are still resisting. Like, this is not that is not over. Yeah, I've

been grappling with that myself. So I appreciate you bringing it up. OK, Martin, you've had

your head up for so long. I feel bad. But I needed to let go on that. No, absolutely. That's

I mean, I think that's. The ceasefire demand in the West is the biggest political question

we have right now. And I think figuring that out is integral to developing harder tactics

and to solidifying resistance here. I wanted to come in with a quote first off by Walter

Rodney, who's an Afro-Guyanese revolutionary. But what standard of morality can the violence

used by a slave to break his chains? be considered the same as the violence of a slave master.

I think that's a really important way to approach this, a way to consider the whole situation.

I have been skeptical and I'm now pretty solidly opposed to the ceasefire demand. I think that

is a both sides argument and a both sides position. Encased in the idea of a ceasefire is Palestinians

dropping their guns. There are situations in which a ceasefire is necessary and correct.

I'm for stopping the bombs on Gaza. I am for beating Israel here at home, cutting off their

military support, but an internationally mandated, a UN mandated or agreed upon ceasefire. I don't

think it makes sense in the current time. So like a ceasefire, it's not this ideological

thing, everyone comes, shakes hands, it's cool. It's usually put in place or agreed upon that

there's a protectorate. put in place here? Who's going to be the protector of Palestine in the

world today? Who is it that the US is going to agree to, to allow to be the protector and

the Palestinians to agree to be the protector? You have historically, you have a couple different

Arab nations coming in to be the protector of Palestine. And then not caring as Israel goes

and takes it on. And also who is it that has the military power to face this massive military

base in the West. Like the people who maybe are separate enough in this, that aren't pro-US

enough in this, are never going to be allowed to be the arbiter of the ceasefire. So it's

going to be Palestine relying on people who have funded their genocide. And I think that's

really a... I don't think that can happen functionally. We also know, we've all known about Palestine.

and research Palestine in this last little bit, enough to know exactly what you were saying.

Whatever, Israel is not gonna stop. There have been lines drawn on the map and Israel has

always pushed forward beyond them. The state of Israel is going to continue to take out

Palestine. And if it's not the state actively doing it, they're endorsing settlers to do

it. What's gonna happen in a ceasefire is that settlers are going to continue to attack. There's

going to be occasional bombings. It's gonna... revert to what it was last year, where there's

only a few hundred Palestinians dying constantly and a few hundred getting taken to prison camps

instead of the thousands a day. But then once the next October 7th happens, once the next

time a olive farmer shoots back because there's a hundred Israeli settlers coming at their

house, it's going to be Hamas attacked civilians. It's going to be Palestine broke the ceasefire.

attacking civilians. And it's going to return exactly to where it is today, if not more so

because we have to remember that on October 7th, Israel was the weakest militarily it has

been in a very long time. And after that reminder, everyone in the West who supports Israel has

been pumping money in to Israel. So over the course of the ceasefire, over the course of

whatever that is, Israel is going to remilitarize, get stronger, and the possibilities for effective

resistance are going to become smaller and smaller. So if we're talking freeing Palestine and we're

talking supporting the resistance, I understand where it comes from. You see the atrocities

being committed and you need it to stop. I don't think a lot of people understand that ceasefire

means both sides drop the guns. We see it and we say we want our guns to stop. And I'm for

that. Yes, the common narrative is very frustrating to me that Hamas must disarm, but we wouldn't

even fathom asking that of Israel, despite the differential in casualties, civilian casualties.

Like it's state sanctioned violence only, right? Everyone swallows it, even though, you know,

anybody who has stepped back and looked at it, we throw our hands up in the air and go, Are

you guys serious? Can you not see the hypocrisy? But you know, we're so trained to only see

state violence as the only legitimate violence, right? And everyone else is a terrorist. Even

folks that should know better still kind of swallow that line whole, but we're eating away

at it bit by bit. But Martin brought us kind of full circle again to, yes, that is a good

point. Israel will likely be more armed after this because we've seen pledges of support

and billions more going. I just kind of scoffed when you said that though, like when they were

at their weakest. I'm like, well, they spend 12% of their budget on the military. They spend

more per capita on their military than anywhere else. They're kind of close to South Korea,

but still not even close. per capita, not even close to Russia. And they need help. So full

circle, we're back to cutting off the weapons supply for everyone. Well, going back to our

politicians over and over again for every kind of incremental change perhaps isn't the answer,

but a more internationalist movement like the ILPS and other internationalists propose. But

do you wanna kind of, where do we go from here? comment. You don't have to tell me what's going

on in your signal chat, or you can, if there's any. But where do folks go? Pan National Day

of Action is planned for November 12th. That's still six days away from the day that we're

recording this. Where do we go in terms of really disrupting imperialism and more specifically

the arms trade? Yeah, I just wanted to sort of add to what the comrade said earlier. There's

a saying in the... National Democratic Movement in the Philippines. The key is to be firm in

principle, but flexible in tactic. There's a lot of similarities between the Palestinian

resistance and the National Democratic Movement, namely that there are two aspects to the movement.

In the Philippines, the movement divides into legal mass movement, represented by various

mass organizations like Bayan Philippines, Anak Bayan, and Gabriela, and there are many, many

other organizations that represent particular sectors of Philippine society. These are the

legitimate mass organizations that relate directly to the masses, mostly in the cities. And there

is another aspect to it, which is an underground armed struggle led by the Communist Party of

the Philippines, New People's Army, which is an armed mass organization of the guerrilla

army of the movement. And there's also the National Democratic Front of the Philippines. So these

three organizations constitute a sort of triangle of the underground revolutionary movement.

And all three are outlawed. They're illegal in the Philippines, of course, in other countries

as well. I can only imagine the penalty would be stiff. Philippines is known for quite the

law and order approach. They use scare quotes there. Yeah. So we have the son of Marcus,

you know, Felde and the Marcus, Junior. He is the, you know, the Marcus dynasty is back in

power. Also, you know, together with the daughter of Rodrigo de Tiltes, who was notorious for

killing people left and right. Just, you know, take, you know, quote unquote, cleaning up

drug addicts from the streets, criminalizing activists, you know. being a rabid anti-communist,

just to name a few, right? But that's throughout the history. These are the puppet regimes of

imperialism, the US, Canada, and other states. My point is that these three, the underground

component is the primary field of struggle. They are the vanguard of the revolution. What

the legal mass movement does is to highlight the root cause. A lot of Filipinos people prefer

that there is no armed conflict. They prefer that there is justice, right? There's no peace

without justice. The objective of the legal mass movement is to highlight the underlying

issues, underlying relations of exploitation and oppression created by imperialism, the

root cause of the armed struggle. In a word, to highlight the legitimacy of the armed struggle.

It is a just struggle for liberation and for socialism. That's what is needed to bring justice

to Filipino people. So there's two aspects of it. The idea is to politically isolate the

Philippine state, you know, make them look very unreasonable and very, they are the ones that

for committing all the injustice. They're the PR firm of the movement. Yeah. They're getting

the talking points out and politically positioning the movement. Yes? Yeah, not necessarily, yeah,

PR, but like, they do the concrete. mass organizing with the working class and dispossessed masses,

peasants also, women, youth, many others. So they're not simply doing PR, but they're two

components of the movement. Even though they're separate, they represent their strive for the

same goal, the liberation of the Philippines from imperialism, semi-feudalism. and bureaucratic

capitalism. The third one is kind of like a very corrupt form of capitalism, represented

by the very close tie between government officials and bureaucrats with the private farms and

landed estates, you know, still operates with the mechanism inherited from the era of Spanish

colonialism, like hachiendas and plantations and what have you, right? Bringing it back

to the Palestinian resistance, I think there's a similar dynamic at play here. There's armed

resistance. is the forefront of the struggle. But there's various other organizations like

Palestinian workers, right, that they're just putting out the call, that they're, you know,

they're different in tactics, but they're striving for the same goal. One notable difference is

that the Philippines is semi-colonial and Palestine is colonial. It's directly occupied by hostile

colonial power, whereas the Philippines is formally independent, you know. I know when you say

semi, it means to me it sounds like half, but it's just like, it's really appearances sake,

right? It's a formality. Exactly. Precisely. Because in the material life of a Philippine

worker, it's colonial. The difference notwithstanding, there's a, you know, the similarity in tactics

and strategy that these two movements employ. And I think our job here in the Imperial Corps

is in the legal sphere, educate the people about the legitimacy. of the armed struggle, right?

If we don't want Hamas and other resistance organizations to exist, the state of Israel

has to dissolve and become a one democratic secular state for everyone, you know, whether

Jewish, Arabs, Palestinians, similar in the Philippines. If you don't want this armed conflict

to exist, this semi-feudal, semi-colonial system has to dissolve. And Philippines have to be...

genuinely democratic. It has to be liberated from the imperialism first so it can move towards

social. So yeah, the point is to basically, our job is to educate people about the right

of armed struggle. The resistance is just and must be supported and we have to really nail

that point to everybody. So in terms of moving forward, where do we go from here? So IOPs

has an active anti-war campaign, anti-militarization campaign, around three... One is three point

demands. One is Canada out of NATO. Second is to stop the technical port for reactionary

regimes, including the Zionist regime, the Philippine state, and Saudi, Saudi Arabia. Do you guys

have a list? The list goes on. It's a lot. Yeah, no, I'm like, I imagine that's a long list.

There's like 196 countries. It's probably like 160 of them. And third demand is the stop the

arms trade. So this is what drove me to this action, right? It's consistent with the campaign.

And actually we co-organized the Kancuk protests in Ottawa in late May with Warp Beyond War.

It was ILPS Canada and Warp Beyond War that put on the protests. It happens every year.

It's been going on for decades actually. It was also very educational. Like I said earlier,

it was, you know, we confronted a lot of these people in suits just walking into the venue

of some of the biggest. arms trade show in the world. You know, the police was violent towards

us. They were escorted and protected by the police. Same thing. That was part of our campaign

as well. And we work with various other organizations who don't necessarily share our politics to

oppose, you know, to put forward these demands and, you know, really fighting imperialism

in the belly of the beast. And yeah, November 8th is the International Day of Action Against

Arms Companies, Weapons Companies. profiting from the genocide in Palestine. There are actions

planned all over North America and beyond. ILPS Canada is responding to this call by the resist

US-led war movements. So they're the initiator of the Day of Action. So it's actually days

of action. There are also actions planned on the 9th as well. But you know, this struggle

is obviously continuing beyond these two days. So yeah, if you're interested in learning more

about ILPS, if your organization is interested, IOPs is an alliance of organizations. So if

your organization's interested, find us on social media. We're on both Instagram and Facebook.

Don't worry about dropping that. I will make sure everyone is linked back to both of your

work and your organizations so that they can learn more about you, but also perhaps get

involved in what you're doing. Yeah, on my end, we've... focused more so on labor work, organizing

within labor. Labor's response to this has been sad. Most of labor seems more, has put more

effort into beating down Fred Hahn for not criticizing Hamas first, foremost, and above everything

than it has doing anything to help Palestinians or even being pacifists and taking both sides.

Functionally, they have taken a pro-Israeli stance. And that's despite the vast number

of trade unionists I know, and like going to marches, I'm seeing a lot of union hats, I'm

seeing a lot of union jackets, but no union flags, because people and trade unionists are

scared about the repercussions that we're going to receive from our unions for not backing

the Canadian imperialist government. That is pathetic because it's the same Canadian imperialist

government that votes us back to work and break strikes. It's the same imperialist government

that's been promising things to workers for generations now and has never done any of that,

regardless of what party it is. Orange, red or blue, doesn't matter who. That's a t-shirt.

And we need to get through that. The workers... The Palestinian youth movement of North America

is right now the biggest mobilizer of workers that is out there, despite the unions not being

on board with it. And so breaking through that, I think it's twofold. It's the political, it's

getting over, because I think the unions see the peacefire demand for exactly what it is.

And they're using that. It's a both sides argument. It's a both sides position. And when you're

for both sides, or when you oppose both sides equally, And why do you do anything? So getting

over that politically, I think is a massive importance. And then it's also building enough

power from the base from not trying to rush through and go to the OFL or CUPI national,

but from your local, from your building that you work at and demanding, or even just taking

flags from a steward and showing up to these marches, not as individuals. but as part of

a collection of workers, as part of a union, and demonstrating to, you know, the politicians

of labor who think or who understand really at this point that if they step up, they're

kind of going to be alone. They're not going to have the support because they don't see

that support. So building from the base, showing that if you stand up to Israel, if you stand

up for Palestine, that you're... not going to be thrown out of the House of Labour because

we have so many people that have your back and that's the way we have to build in labour.

That's how we're going to get to the point of forcing the OFL to say, no, we're not moving

any arms for Israel. We're not building any arms for Israel. That's how we're going to

get to the point of not a few hour long picket, but having picket lines set up at Incas every

single second of every single day. until Palestine is free. That's how we're going to get to the

point of really taking out the war machine that is Canada. So that's the goal. Slowly but surely,

I've gotten two, three co-workers out to Palestine marches. So long way to go. But that's the,

I mean, I think that's the next step for escalation on the labor front. Yes, Martin. Please remember,

it's not your job to bring everybody along. So those are victories when you bring people

along. that personal work, that local work is often a lot harder, right? It's more intimate

and it does require that kind of heavy lifting that you have to do sometimes. Discussions,

hard discussions. Again, I hope our audience is a little bit better equipped to have some

of those discussions with people because they've heard from the both of you. I thank you very

much for coming on the show and for the work that you do on the ground. I feel like we could

talk about... this and so many other tangents. I feel like we could have probably pulled like

three or four episodes out of here. I wasn't sure what I was going to focus in on, but we

hit some really key points and yeah, I'm grateful for this discussion. So thank you, K and thank

you, Martin. And please keep up your good work. Yeah, thank you so much for having me. Solidarity.

That is a wrap on another episode of Blueprints of Disruption. Thank you for joining us. Also,

a very big thank you to the producer of our show, Santiago Helu Quintero. Blueprints of

Disruption is an independent production operated cooperatively. You can follow us on Twitter

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