You are listening to the we need to Talk with Oscar podcast.

And this is our conversation with Bibi Dirkan, cinematographer of Midas.

Man.

We went into Abbey Road.

That was really magical because it is the real studio.

It is where everybody still is, all the pictures on the walls, and it hasn't really changed.

It's pretty much the same, I think we're storytellers, but just with a different medium.

We tell the story with images and we're trying to translate the emotion the director sees and what we see, obviously.

I guess to begin with, the most simple, yet at times not so simple question.

Why cinematography?

Yes.

Well, I mean, I did my A and O level.

It's not that I've had, you know, a lot of people have seen a film or something that really interested them and that's why they wanted to become a dp.

I didn't see that to start off with.

I also didn't even know this job existed.

So I started when I did my.

After I did my A levels, I started on art school to become a painter and did this for a year.

And that was so incredibly boring because I had to paint still life, you know, like a wooden plate with pumpkins on it, and I had to do this for a year.

I nearly died, it was so boring.

But they had also a dark room available and I started going more and more into the dark room.

And that's actually why what I really like to do.

So.

And then I started taking pictures.

So I stopped my painter education and started photography, then learned photography, then been an au pair girl in London, then came back and started.

I mean, it's just zigzag tour.

In the end, I started with a freelance photographer.

I've been his assistant and a dp.

A friend of his saw me there and asked me if I would be interested in film cameras.

This is how I saw my first film camera.

And I think it was a BL4.

And it was head over heels and started in the camera rental and then the classical route, trainee, second focus, polar operator, dp.

That all together, I think took me, I don't know, 28 years.

Quite a while at a long education, if you know what I mean.

Yeah, yeah.

A lot of teachers going through the steps and ranks and.

Yeah, absolutely.

Very grateful.

I've been very lucky.

Yeah, yeah.

But like, I was going through your filmography and seeing the Constant Gardener Unite in 93 alongside one of the previous guests on the show, Barry Ackroyd.

Two pictures, two Tarantino movies in Inglourious Basterds And Hugo, with the legend himself, Robert Richardson, the Most Wanted Man DP'd by Benoit.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So to go back to what you've just asked me, I've done nothing else in my life than filling a frame.

So, you know, I started with painting and then I just went to another frame and I actually learned from.

I mean, from all of them, I learned something incredibly valuable.

But Benoit, because you just mentioned him and what I like, he always says camera is, you know, the language for everybody is a universal language.

And I love that.

So if you see camera as a language, you know, then because everybody understands that you don't need, you know, the language itself.

Whatever we, We.

We speak, you know, so that I really, really like.

So I'm trying to.

To become better on it, you know, and trying to learn more, a better vocabulary.

Yeah.

And then as a db, yourself and a feature, your debut, going by release date.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but was Rum Springer on Netflix?

Yeah, Room Springer was one.

Yeah.

I started.

I did quite a bit of German television to start off with.

Yeah.

You know, and serious 90 minutes, TV, movies, all kind of different stuff.

And then I don't know if Rumspringer actually was the first one.

I can't really remember, but, you know.

But it's done.

Yeah.

I've been, you know, I've done quite a bit of serious work first to start off with.

And that was good because you have to be.

You don't have much time and you still have to deliver something decent.

So it's a good.

It's a good learning curve.

Yeah.

Plus getting to know more and more directors and showrunners, styles, like maybe even just switching between episodes and everything.

Yeah.

And what I'm curious about, in maybe both feature and series, by the time you, for example, got to ROM Springa or Dr.

Jekyll, you had decades of experience.

Can you recall maybe not even a moment, but period, when you first, as objectively as one can evaluate their own capabilities, felt like you could and maybe should be the dp.

I don't know if that was a specific moment, really, but.

Because what I remember is that at one point I thought, well, I just realized at one point that everybody around me was getting younger and younger and I was getting older and older.

And I've had a lot of younger colleagues, which, you know, I supported a lot, which is fine.

But this is the moment I thought, okay, I give it a go as well.

Maybe this is also a woman thing.

Even though I don't really want to go into the whole, you know, the whole woman thing.

Would rather talk about, you know, the work I've done.

But, you know, you always had.

You always felt insecure that you haven't had learned enough, that you were not good enough to take the final step.

So it took me quite a long time to do that.

And I think with always more and more working for more and more younger DPs, I think that was what initially sparked the idea of to give it a go.

So that's why I started, really.

And luckily I did.

Yeah.

Yeah.

For me, at least.

No, no, for everyone.

What I'm curious about is maybe not even who were those, but were there those people who were giving you the final push, or was it more something you had to reevaluate for yourself, within yourself?

I think I had to do this by myself.

I don't think that you start DPing, not because I would be a threat or anything.

It's because you become a, you know, you become a crew.

And I loved working with Benoit.

I loved working with Robert Richardson.

I think they're all wonderful.

You know, you learn just so much, and it's.

It's.

It's built on trust.

You become just a crew, you know, so.

But they.

I'm still in contact with them.

Maybe not every day, but occasionally I write something to them if.

If I don't know what to do, or I send them some of my work and say, what do you, you know, what do you think?

Is this rubbish?

Or is it good?

In a way, they're mentors, even if there is.

Or sometimes they would even write to a producer and say, listen, we have very good.

We think she's fully capable of taking over a major production.

You know, there's a very friendly connection, you know, which.

Which we introduced over the years when.

The change or the turning of the tables happened.

Yeah.

What were your foundings or were there any not so expected, more so unexpected realizations for you as it happened?

Yeah, yeah.

I actually thought it would have been easier.

I really thought it would have been easier because I'm in the film industry for so long.

Yeah, it's been a long time coming.

So.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I thought, yes.

And I thought, yeah, okay.

You know, I know a lot of people, but everybody saw me as a focus puller, you know, so the transition from focus pulling to operating, that was a tough one.

That really was a tough one.

And I think I've more or less.

I had to sit it out.

I mean, the last film I did as a focus puller, was a most wanted man with Benoit.

And already before that, I had started operating.

And I took this job for two reasons.

Obviously because I love to work with Benoit and Philip Seymour Hoffman.

I mean, wonderful.

But also because, you know, I just thought I need to do another job just to support myself.

And that was.

So that was the last focus pulling job I did.

You know, I felt like that was a.

That was a.

It was a good end because, you know, the director is a photographer as well, you know, so I felt like my photography, you know, this whole.

I started with photography.

At one point I was even supposed to go to him and assist him when I started photography.

So it all became like I thought, this is the perfect.

Anyhow.

Yeah.

And then going from operating to being the dp.

Yeah, that was easier.

And I'm glad I did it that way because at least you know how to.

Because if you start operating, I mean, there are operators in this industry which are just outstanding because they've done this for 25 years.

I mean, this is different.

We're talking.

There's different level of operating.

So my operating is.

It's okay, I get along with it.

But I didn't want to do only that for the next 25 years because I've done focus pulling for so long.

I just wanted to become a DP then.

So that was easier.

That was easier.

And I'm glad I did the operating the three years operating before because.

So when you then become a DP and you've been asked as well to operate, which in Germany definitely happens, you know, because you always have to do it there, you rarely have an operator.

So at least you know how to move your body.

Otherwise you have to think about how to move your body, how to move the camera, where do I put the light, how do I talk to people?

So I've been very lucky that I did this, you know, in baby steps, not, you know, a few years of film school and then I don't know how they do it.

And then you stand on a, on a film set and all people looking at you, you know, what do we do next?

Where do you want the track?

How much time?

You know, it's.

I think it's quite a tough environment.

And you.

It's very helpful if you've seen everything from the second row and not to.

Look for an upside or any positives here.

Maybe.

Yes.

But even though you been or you were on one side of this experience, really, do you see a difference in you going through the ranks and spending as much time as you did on them and with affecting your relationship with the different departments and maybe even within your department than, for example, those who are, as I said, coming out of film school and within a couple of years are at the top or as the heads of their department.

For me, this was, I think, the better way.

And now I unfortunately have to talk about being a woman because I think if I wouldn't have got, you know, when I've become.

When I've been a focus puller and a loader, you know, all these heavy, heavy magazines, these big cameras.

I mean, today a camera is, you know, my handbag is heavier than.

Than the camera these days.

But when I started, I had to kind of prove myself that I can do this job because there were so, so, so few women there who could do it.

And because I did prove myself over the years, I got a respect from the crew.

So if I talk with the grip department, lighting department, they know I've done my time, and I think they treat me differently than they would treat somebody who's just from film school.

Not saying they'll be nasty or that they won't help them, but I think there's a different form of respect if you've gotten through the ranks, you know, because you had to really work for it.

I think there's a difference.

So if I would say, can we please move this light over there?

They might not start a long discussion about why, you know, this could happen.

Yeah, because, you know, what.

What goes into it, and they know, you know, you.

Yeah, they know how heavy it is.

Or this, you know, you say, oh, can I please have a, you know, the crane there in five minutes.

They look at me like, are you out of your mind?

Know how long it takes, you know, because you've been part of that.

So there are a lot of, you know, you know, just the working environment better.

I think that is a big.

That's a big help.

Yeah, I think I'm glad I went through the ranks, and I'm also glad I worked with so many different DPs and so many different formats.

The beautiful thing is that you were allowed to do.

You know, I always wanted to do everything, and I still want to do everything.

So working with Paul Greengrass, for example, and I'm sure Barry has spoken about that, that's, you know, such a different way of working, and it's liberating because it's so different to what you've learned before.

And, you know, you open up, you're doing a completely different movie.

And I would love to be Able to do this as a DP as well.

I want to do all kind of formats.

Not only period or not only the 90s, not only colorful.

You want to do black and white, music video, promo, documentary style.

You want it all.

As I said, it's a language.

And that's not just 10 words.

Yeah.

And just to spend one more moment with the different ranks.

Because on the other hand, thanks to your varying knowledge of the different jobs, how do you avoid now, as a dp, micromanaging the different parts of your department?

Yeah, normally I'm trying to get.

First of all, I always try to get people I know, which is obviously, you know, you want.

It's a bit like what they've done, you know, the way I've been brought up.

I like that you have, you know, some kind of family structures because you spend so much time with each other.

It's just nice if you have people, you know, But.

Well, I would ask them if they would like to hear my opinion or not really.

And if they say, yeah, that's.

That's nice, then I would tell them what I think or what I've done in the past.

And it worked out well for me because there's some.

I think this is.

There's so much in camera, it's constantly changed, but there is some kind of.

Still some kind of etiquette on set, which helps you to navigate, I think, better through the day and how to manage your workload.

So, you know, I'm always happy to share.

If somebody wants to hear it, I'm happy to tell them.

I'm trying not to impose it on people, you know, because.

Yeah, before there was more like one system.

Now everybody kind of has a little bit their own system.

And in a way I understand, you know, I also didn't want everybody telling me all the time how to do my job.

Yeah.

So I'm trying to be understood, you know, to understand and.

Yeah, trying to be just nice and have a good atmosphere on set.

But everybody can always come to me and ask, and if I know, I happily tell them.

If I don't know, I will find out.

Because, of course, I don't know everything.

Yeah.

And at the end of the day, as long as the job's done.

The job.

Yeah, exactly.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But normally it's, you know, on general, it's.

In general, it's.

It's a lovely working atmosphere.

Yeah.

And then came once again, going through your filmography on the feature side of things.

Dr.

Jekyll, the million Robbery, and the latest midas Man.

Yes, released last October.

I, of course, watched it for a conversation and I'd love to spend some time with it.

Firstly, I don't want to misphrase anything and I only found some limited details about it of some difficulties in production or something like that.

And really what I wanted to ask you about is how involved do you have to get in stuff like that and how do you keep your focus during those times?

Yeah, it's obviously sometimes difficult if there's so much political noise in the background.

It is difficult.

You know, I don't want to lie about it.

It's not easy.

But, you know, I really like the director.

I've worked with him before.

I think he's a very talented man, young man.

So I just, you know, you just stick together.

You're just this unit on set and you're trying to do what, you know, what is possible during the day.

Yeah, it was not an easy job, but it was a lovely, lovely crew.

So everybody on set was just wonderful.

And also a lot of people in production were wonderful, but not everybody.

So they were.

There was trouble, you know, but this is what it sometimes is.

You can't get too much involved with this, you know, because that will backfire.

And of course, that is something you have to learn as well, painfully sometimes, because you have the best intentions.

You really have.

I think everybody always has the best intention.

I don't think anybody goes to set, you know, and just wants to be horrible.

And it is sometimes difficult.

You know, financing can be very difficult, especially with these independent movies.

It's not easy to get the money and it's not getting more these days.

And it's the same with, you know, high end television, with, you know, with every production, actually, it's difficult.

They also have a lot to deal with, you know, in the end they have to get the production home.

And you just have to try to do the best you can in the time you have.

Honestly, I'm just trying to blend it out as much as I can.

Thank you for being so open about it.

Yes.

And something you've mentioned throughout our conversation just a couple minutes ago is how you don't want to just do, period, but do contemporary black and white music videos, promos.

But here, for example, on Meet Us man, of course, being of such a specific time, for every department, there are their starting points for the set, for the costumes.

But for you, what was the entry point?

Where do you begin your work on something like Midas, Man?

Well, it's obviously a lot of talking, you know, Every job is different and I try to treat every job differently as well.

So with Midas, man, I've worked with that director before, so there is already some kind of language you have introduced.

So I know a little bit in which direction he's thinking.

But you know, we had some on this, on that one.

We actually been not so driven by images.

Sometimes you look at images, sometimes you don't.

There we didn't do it.

There we didn't do it because we didn't want to make or he didn't want to make like a super flashy film.

You know, not super, super gloss, none of that.

It's a quiet story.

It's a story where Brian Epstein is the one who should be in the middle of this conversation.

So we kept to a kind of a period look, but not trying to be.

Yeah.

Over stylish, you know, not putting something too stylish onto that show.

And then obviously you look at some period pictures, you know, what they've done, pictures of him, where he lived.

It was more about the background and his hidden identity.

You know, what he's.

What he was hiding and the problems he went going through.

It's more an emotional approach than a visual approach, I would say.

Yeah, because it's not flashy.

No, it's not.

I don't think it's flashy in a good way.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And yeah, because since you are getting crazy amount of biopics in the past, I don't know, 10, 15 years.

Yeah.

And there are so many different approaches to recapturing historical moments, stories, lives and so on.

But as you just said, it's, it's.

It's more about going behind the scenes, the untold stories and all those around that.

So with that, did you have more of a free hand in giving life to a story like this?

Yes.

I mean, the budget was also.

Obviously gives you some ideas because the budget wasn't huge.

So you have to work within this budget.

And sometimes a restricted budget is also a big gift because you can't have the.

For example, one scene Joe really would have loved to have when the Beatles, when they all stand on the.

On the steps, on the aircraft when they come back from New York.

He really wanted that because there was a big hangar, we even found some planes, but then we just couldn't afford not even the crowd replication, you know, and all these essays.

So in the end.

And also I think we run out of time.

So that scene got canceled.

So because of that it became, you know, this narrative which you've seen where you see all the pictures behind Brian where he's talking about what happened to him.

And that's also a nice, you know, it's.

It's a bit more unusual way, but it's also a nice way of doing that.

It's born because of.

Born out of the necessity that they didn't have the money for this big set.

So sometimes it helps, sometimes it doesn't, you know, so we concentrated.

Yeah, we picked our battles.

So there were.

There's scenes where you had, you know, where you maybe had, you know, all these old film cameras and stuff like this, or we went into every road.

That was really magical because it is the real studio.

It is where everybody still is.

All the pictures on the walls and it hasn't really changed.

It's pretty much the same.

So that's wonderful.

And even, you know, there were all these actors, also musicians we had.

So they are.

They're playing the music live for us.

It's going to a Beatles concert every.

Every day.

It was phenomenal.

It was so beautiful.

It was really, really nice experience.

They played for us on the wrap party.

Everybody's singing and it's really like you're being in that time and yeah, by.

The way, since the film, centering around it after talking about studying in painting, then going from that to cinematography on another side of arts.

What's your relationship like with music?

Everything you hear, I think, is the first.

Is your first sense.

You know, I think when you're, you know, obviously when you're born, the first thing you know, you're here even while you're still in the belly.

So I think hearing is very important and so is music, so is language, so is the voice.

Yeah.

So I have a big, big love for music.

And again, a lot of different music, it doesn't.

It's not just one, it's another very, very strong language, emotional language.

I think we all know that music can elevate every image.

You know, it can elevate.

Or even if it's not there, this is also an elevation, you know, like silence, the absence of sound.

Like sometimes you see in war movies or I think it's also phenomenal.

You only hear the sound of the body, the breathing.

Yeah.

Now, music is, especially on Midas man, of course, total blessing because everybody could sing the songs.

It's like in everybody's DNA, these songs, everybody knows these songs.

It's cool.

Yeah.

And to wrap up and to bring our conversation back to your craft and to filmmaking as a whole on set.

What is the ultimate thing to hear.

What is it that you hear as the music to your ears?

Probably if somebody says, I've been moved by it, I think if somebody says, I've been moved by it, then I think that's great.

And that could be from laughing to crying.

I think if you can reach people, I think that's wonderful.

That's my biggest goal.

I think I'm a lot of DPs.

I think we're all storytellers.

That's why I go back to talking about language.

I think we're storytellers, but just with a different medium.

We tell the story with images, and we're trying to translate the emotion the director sees and what we see.

Obviously, you know, the moment you follow with a camera, this is something you do out of a gut feeling, you know, Do I turn?

Do I not turn?

Do I go down?

Do I go?

Do I look up?

You don't think about it necessarily in the moment.

Good enough.

If I move somebody, I'm very happy.

Incredible.

Bibi, once again, thank you so much for your time.

Yeah, this was fun.

Yeah.

Thank you very much, Aaron.