Hello, human collective.

Welcome to the Upside to Grief.

My name is Story and I am your host.

And my name is Erica and I am your co host.

Welcome to chapter 12.

Today on the podcast we have Dr. Karen here and we are very excited to have her here and have her share about her journey with us.

Yes.

Dr. Karen will tell us more about herself, her experiences with grief, her grief stories, what she, what she has found in her life, and just so many cool things.

This is a really wonderful woman and I'm really excited to talk to you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Welcome.

Thank you so much for coming on.

Yes, thank you.

And such a pleasure being here.

So thank you to both of you.

Of course.

Yeah.

So starting off, I know you said you wanted to go a little on the personal side here, which we love.

So.

So who are we going to start off by talking about today?

I would love to talk about my father.

All right, so I had one of those situations.

I'm going to take you back to 2012.

And it was really one of these days where, by the way, this is not my norm, but I just lost it.

I had a day where I was so screaming and yelling at my husband and my kids, I was cussing at my brothers, I was hanging up on my mom.

I had just lost it.

And I.

And again, I'll come back to more about what led to that day.

But after I looked at the aftermath where, you know, where the, my husband was like getting the kids off to another room type of situation, I was like, okay, I think I need some help here.

So I ended up going and seeing a therapist, which by the way, I will be talking about medical, I will be talking about therapy.

All well meaning professionals.

This is my story.

So.

And emphasizing for those listening, this is my story that is going through.

So went to a therapist and I, I believe she was also newly minted.

Like, I can tell she was looking at my background and looking at me and she, I shared what had led up to that day.

And she said, I think you have social anxiety or situational anxiety.

Do you think you have situational anxiety?

I'm like, I don't even know what that is.

I mean, I could think about it.

So I walked out of that 45 minute session being labeled and being sent off to anxiety group or something like that.

And I thought, okay, I'll go through the process.

But I wasn't to a point that you mentioned earlier, Erica, I didn't feel like I was being heard for what I had gone through, which again, I'll come back to.

But I thought, okay, I'll go through the process of that.

Then I had another meltdown with my son, to which I was like, okay, well, maybe because I'm in my early 40s at that time, maybe it's hormonal.

So I went to see my obgyn.

So also thinking about if.

What is that metaphor?

If you have a hammer, everything's a nail.

Like, I did go to see my ob gyn and my thought was the fact that it was hormonal and I was in my early 40s.

Like, put all that math together.

Now, for medical professionals, they truly only have about seven minutes to be able to identify quickly what's going on and what's the remedy for what's going on.

So within two minutes of sharing all the stories about what had led up to that day and how I had broken down, she cut me off and she prescribed me medications, right?

Prescribed me drugs.

Now mind you, at that point in time, I was like, oh, I'll take ibuprofen if I need it, Vitamin C. Like, I was not into any kind of other medicine other than that.

So I declined that.

And then I come home and my husband's like, you know that fancy destination spa that you've been looking at for a while?

Like, maybe you should just go away for a while.

Okay.

So I did up in Vista Calvi for those of us in San Diego.

So had my eyesight on it went, and it was absolutely wonderful.

Exercises in the morning, ate fresh fruits and vegetables, had massages and facials and things like that in the afternoon.

It was absolutely wonderful.

Then within two hours of being home, I started bickering with my loving husband again.

Nothing to do with him and everything to do with me.

So what happened on that day that I had the breakdown was I had just put my 18 year old beloved cat to sleep on that day.

I called my mom to tell her that I had done that and she mentioned something to me that under normal circumstances would have been irritating and then you just would have gotten over it.

But it was the straw, the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back.

Because a month prior to that, I just laid my 90 year old father to sleep.

Right.

I was not dealing with the grief of the loss of my father.

And here I was a month later putting my cat to sleep.

And I hit grief hard.

But in the process of it, and again, this is back in 2012, I was the therapist that I met with and the doctor, granted it was the ob gyn, didn't recognize that I was going through a normal, natural process of grief.

A normal, natural process of grief.

And so when it came along to six years later, when I found myself going through a separation and a divorce, I was like, oh, heck no, pg, I'm not going down that route again.

Right.

It's okay.

We curse here.

Okay?

No, hell no, I'm not going down that route again.

I wanted to seek other resources to be able to do that.

And again, this was my experience at that point in time.

So that's truly what led me into looking at what is grief?

What am I going through at that point in time as a divorcee?

What was I going through and how is that similar to a death and other things?

So that's how I really ended up getting into this world of understanding our conscious and our unconscious mind.

What are our past traumas, triggers, and limiting beliefs that are going on that are leading us to act and react in such a way to certain life events.

Right.

Specifically grief.

Yeah.

It sounds like a lot of compound grief occurred as well.

I mean, those are really hard things to have to deal with consecutively.

Very intense.

Losing a parent, losing a pet, losing a relationship.

Yeah, it's a lot.

Yes.

Yeah.

So one of the things that you described was that you feel.

So one of your accomplishments is creating the.

I think you called it a textbook.

Now, it has achieved textbook status, healthy grief.

But you preface this with saying that your dad was your unhealthy grief.

So what did you mean by that?

And what did that feel like?

Or how did that present in your life besides, you know, these big, monumental steps afterwards?

Yes.

So when I.

When my father passed, I did the dutiful thing as the daughter and stepped to all the logistics.

I was focusing on, where are we with the will and trust?

What are the finances?

Let's plan for the celebration of life.

Let's do all these things.

But I really was putting up a shield in regards to relating to my emotions and relating to those around me, including my dad.

The last six months of his life, he had declined.

And so I say we had him for the last six months of his life as he started to decline.

And even in that process where I had to take over as the dutiful daughter and managing some of the logistics, I missed out on an opportunity to truly connect with my dad relationally, like have that father, daughter, let's talk about what's going on.

Let's sit down and cry about like, my dad would have been open to that, but I was just.

I was not ready to go there.

So I missed out on that opportunity.

Plus the fact when he passed, I didn't.

I hit grief hard a month later because my cat passed away.

And it wasn't just the passing of my cat, it was my dad.

So as you mentioned, compound grief coming back.

Yeah, yeah.

No breathing room there.

No breathing room there.

Yeah.

So one of the things that.

Well, there's two different routes I can go.

So, yes, this was really the start of my work with healthy grief and understanding that there are various different things that are different types of griefs.

So for me, I define grief as something that is a certain event, which typically is an external event, but it can be an internal event.

So the passing of a cat, the divorce, the day you walked out, the death, whatever the event is.

And you have a significant emotion associated with that, usually a significant sorrow when what once was is no longer.

So it's sort of like that proverbial book that we have of our life where in this previous chapter we had some something and we're moving into this next chapter of our life when that something is no longer there.

Right.

But we don't just flip over and turn into that next chapter.

Right.

It's that process that we go through.

Right.

And for each and every one of us, even as I look at my own fingers, there is somebody who said grief is about as unique as each of our fingerprints.

Right.

There's no certain time associated with it.

Right.

It's not like grief needs to last this long and you need to get over it.

Right.

And just move forward.

So it's unique to every one of us.

And the different types of grief are unique.

It's much more than just death and dying.

It's an everyday type of loss.

Which is one of the things I also wanted to talk about with individuals is it's the idea of a loss of a hope and dream is a loss that's a psychological loss.

It doesn't need to be an external event.

So, for example, if we have somebody who is.

Let's just imagine like middle school, like, you know, somebody like little Susie or Bobby is going for a role in the middle school or even high school.

Just make it up play, right?

They're going through for a certain role in the high school or school play and they don't get that role.

Right?

That's a grief.

It doesn't.

You know, maybe it's their best friend who gets the role or somebody else.

It doesn't matter.

There's a loss.

There's a hope to get something and you can fill it.

In with anything, hope to get on a sports team, hope to get picked in that, you know, so I'm taking it back to being a kid with the idea of there's various different types of griefs that we experience in our life, but we don't see.

See it as grief.

Right.

It's.

It's what's called disenfranchised grief.

It's the type where we have a significant loss.

It's significant to us, but it's not necessarily recognized by society as a grief.

Everybody around you.

Yeah.

And I love that you, like, use that as the example, because I. I feel like if more people could recognize that and we talk about it, right, Then that gives us the opportunity.

I'm not a parent.

I hope to be at some point, right.

And.

And I think about those things of like, how am I going to teach my child how to grief at a young age?

And, like, starting off right, I mean, a lot of people are like, no, like, the fish dies, you get a new fish.

Where I'm like, I don't know if I would get a new fish.

I don't think I'd be that type of parent.

Because, like, what you just explained, right, you start off learning how to process and understand these emotions.

Growing as a kid, that's gonna help you as an adult, you know?

So I love that you use that example because that just makes me totally think about something else that I'm like, yeah, okay, let me store this for later.

Cool.

Yeah.

And really thinking about, even for us at any point in time, again, my tagline is grief is more than death and dying.

It's an everyday loss.

So if we walk through a day and we have, you know, we're late to something important, there's a loss that's there.

I mean, we can layer it on in so many different ways, but the goal is when we recognize that there's various different types of losses and we can build the skills we're building.

A resilience muscle is another way I'd like to describe it.

We're building a resilience muscle with these resources.

Relatively minor losses in our lives, even at the moment, it may not be like a minor loss like, I've lost that goldfish.

I didn't get that role in the play.

But in the moment, it's a real loss for us.

And to recognize that that is a real thing we have, and also the skills to be able to process through it.

Hence the reason why I have the framework in the book, which I'll get to, but Just acknowledging versus saying to a child that, oh, we'll get another goldfish, or, oh, you can go for another school play, or, you know, that's.

You get it next time.

Yeah, you'll get it next time.

Which is, again, as a parent of five, I've said some of those things.

Right.

And stopping.

And I love the fact that you're, like, storing it in the past is like when we acknowledge that for that child, for that person, for that, whoever it is in our life, in that moment, they're feeling a loss, and by us trying to brush it off, we're invalidating their pain.

Yes.

And removing the capability to learn or process.

Because like you said, the grief or loss is real.

So everything that happens after that is real.

But if we negate those or move on or brush them away, we're basically saying those feelings aren't real.

Correct.

So that just sets.

It's funny, like the goldfish metaphor or analogy.

I have a similar story with a pet where it's a little bit different.

Not a goldfish, but I remember I was doing a death and dying workshop with Sherry, who we have had on our podcast, and one of the things that she asked us was what was the very first significant experience with death or dying?

And usually it's as a child.

And it was really creepy how all of our experiences, while the loss was different, whether it was a thing, a living being or a pet, our reactions or the people around us did very similar things.

And of course that hurts, but it was also like, okay, like, this is something to explore.

Yeah.

So that's very significant.

And we live in a grief avoidant society.

I call it grief phobic.

Grief illiterate.

Grief phobic.

We are all about that story.

And I love being grief literate.

We really like being able to find words and phrases that feel more real.

I guess, feel more real, feel more appropriate, authentic.

Yeah.

So that's one of our goals.

It's one thing that we like to.

Throughout this.

Yes, 100%.

It's something we'll probably ask you at some point, too.

Yeah.

But continue, please.

We could go in so many.

We can.

I love it.

I love it.

Well, I even say.

And even in my book, healthy grief is.

It's in the United States.

It's even written into the Declaration of Independence.

The pursuit of happiness.

Not deal with your grief.

And the pursuit of happiness.

Right, right.

And so it's like if two things that are not happy are bad and need to be fixed, so grief tends to fall in that category.

So then you have.

That's the reason why.

So Healthy Grief is the name of the book, and the subtext subtitle is how to Normalize and Navigate Loss in a Culture of Toxic Positivity.

So that's why I talk about positivity.

So positivity in itself is good.

Then the question becomes, what is toxic?

I mean, I have an idea, but I would love to hear, like, how it applies to grief.

Yes.

So I even have a couple of phrases in Healthy grief, which I've said myself, either to myself or to somebody who's grieving.

I've had that experience, too.

And by the way, healthy grief is for both the griever as well as a supporter.

So I say it's one of those where you get it before you need it.

So toxic positivity, it's basically anything that hinders the natural, normal, healthy process of grief.

So, for example, as if I'm a supporter of somebody who's grieving.

And actually, one of the gentlemen who almost wrote his story in Healthy Grief, he had lost his son, death by suicide.

So it was still raw for him.

He said one of the individuals had said to him at that point in time, oh, your son's in a better place.

God.

Yeah.

That's what we call an unhelpful platitude.

Yes.

It's a.

We talk about them frequently.

Yeah.

Yeah.

They're like, great.

Have you been there?

Yeah.

Can you tell me what it's like?

Yeah, I feel really awful right now.

And you're talking about better places.

Yes.

Segue sentences.

Yes.

Like, ooh, right.

That's the.

I'm sorry for your loss.

I know people can mean it, but I also refer to them.

We refer to them as segue sentences, which unhelpful platitudes can also be segue sentences.

Like, let me just say this because it's gonna make me feel better.

And then let's talk about something else.

Yeah.

So toxic positivity is under the umbrella of that for sure.

Because it's.

It's like your definition said.

Can you repeat that one more time?

Toxic positivity is positivity that doesn't allow us.

The natural process of grief.

Is that it?

Natural and healthy process of grief.

The natural and healthy process of grief.

Because it invalidates somebody else's pain.

Yes.

That hurt.

That pain, that state that they're in in that moment.

Because you should be happy for that person because they're in a better place.

Right.

It's almost like you're just trying to throw sprinkles on a wound.

Does that make sense?

That's a weird way to say color, but you understand what I'm trying to say.

Instead of salt on a wound, it's color.

Yeah.

Here's some sprinkles on your wound.

And it's like, wait, what?

And other phrases.

And again, I usually.

I was just recently presenting this.

So I talked about both coming into the holiday seasons where we're supposed to be happy right at the time of this recording.

So that's another whole thing about how can we provide grief, gives grief a seat at the table during the holidays.

But I talked about both death as well as divorce.

So another one is like, for a divorce, oh, you're better off without him.

I didn't like him anyway.

For somebody who's grieving a divorce, for example, or.

Oh, you have to be happy for the kids.

So those are toxic positivity.

They may be the other terms that you're using.

What were those?

That are the unhelpful platitudes or the segue sentences.

Right.

Which.

Anything that invalidates somebody else's pain.

And to a point that you mentioned, story, I actually get in and say, for what purpose are we saying those?

Is it because we're uncomfortable with their grief?

Right, Sorry.

I don't know why I whispered that.

I love that.

Yes, please say that louder.

Yeah, yeah.

Like, just to acknowledge for ourself.

Is that.

Because that's information for me, if I'm the supporter and I find myself saying these terms that are coming out of my mouth, for what purpose for me, am I saying that?

How can I, as somebody who wants to support somebody, be in the room with somebody and actually create?

Whether you call it.

I call it holding space for somebody, but being in the space for somebody, even if I'm feeling uncomfortable so I can make them comfortable, even if it's for a short period of time, doesn't mean I have to.

But how can I develop that space, comfort in a space where I may want to fill in with those platitudes.

Yeah.

For me, a story uses holding space.

Like, I feel like that resonates with you.

Right.

Because I saw you nodding for me.

I like saying that.

How can I witness this person?

Because you're just.

You're not trying to fix or anything.

You're just witnessing.

How can I be an obs, not even an observer, Witnessing.

I feel like you see them fully.

So I like that.

And this is kind of like a breakaway thing.

But you mentioned divorce.

Are there any unhelpful platitudes that you experienced afterwards.

Like people trying to do the segue sentence kind of thing.

Well, and I've shared some of those.

Like, oh, I never liked him, or, you know, he.

Okay, so those were for you.

Those are ones you actually experienced.

Okay.

Or things people calling attention.

I don't know if it's necessarily platitudes, but calling attention.

Certain behaviors to try to make me realize that, oh, I was seeing this pattern and it was unhealthy, so you did the right thing, which could be helpful.

And also it's testing the waters as to what's gonna be helpful for that person in that moment, which is.

A story is coming to mind here in just a bit.

But I wanna, before I break away to that story, is come back to something that you mentioned, Erica, about witnessing.

One of the things that in healthy grief is when we can see, hear and understand somebody for what they're going through, that's about witnessing them.

Or even to see, hear, feel, feel and understand what we're going through.

Because that's the other form of toxic positivity for myself, if I have to put on my smiley face because I gotta be strong for the kids and I don't wanna be a burden to other people.

So it's also those phrases or thoughts that we may have that are also toxic positivity as a griever.

Yeah.

Witnessing the self.

And giving grace there.

Yeah, exactly.

So that witnessing piece of it is very important.

Then, even as I say the phrase.

I'm sure this is something you've heard too, is the caution with I understand.

Right, exactly.

Eye rolls.

Yeah.

Like, even.

Like I say, I understand in my own way, but please tell me.

I can only imagine what's going on for you right now.

Tell me.

Share with me.

And you kind of mentioned it a little bit, but we joke a lot that we can discuss these unhelpful platitudes, the toxic positivity.

But we are absolutely guilty of saying pretty much every single one of them because we're not taught otherwise.

For example, I've definitely said I understand to people who have lost their dad, because my grief stories are on my dad.

So if somebody loses their dad to cancer, I'm like, I understand when that is.

It's just not.

It's just not.

They could even have the same type of cancer.

And I might have like a.

A little inkling of maybe some aspects, but still, like, I'm not going to understand your grief.

Your grief is unique to you.

Right.

But even to follow it up, to say, you know, I. I can.

I can understand from my perspective of somebody who's lost their father, but I can only imagine what it's like for you.

Yes, I like that a lot.

So it allows that other person to know that you have a similar story.

Right.

And that you're open to hearing.

And you're open to hearing.

Yeah.

Because the see, hear and understand you encompassed all three of those in that statement.

That's really.

And feel.

And feel.

Yeah.

To kind of finish that little bit.

Was there something that you remember that anyone said that was helpful at that time?

Or did anybody do something that actually.

Felt an action that was taken that.

Mm.

It's really hard for people.

So, you know, I feel like we are all guilty, many of us are guilty of all the unhelpful things, just because it goes back to not being taught, not knowing, and the grief, illiteracy and all of that.

But do you remember any moment where you were like, okay, that actually I can breathe for a second a little.

Tiny fresh or breath of fresh air?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it's not a phrase necessarily, so we can come back to a phrase.

But this was something.

And I actually write about this in Healthy Grief too.

So it's part of the five step framework too, is I had a friend of mine who said, hey, can I go to the store?

Can I buy you some groceries?

And for me, stomach getting right was like, oh, no, I don't want unburdened.

Like, no, no, no, you don't have to do that.

And again, I was just like, not in the state of going anywhere.

And she said, I'm going to the grocery store.

In fact, she even texted me.

She goes, I am at the grocery store and if you do not respond to me with what you want, I will buy what you want and I will show up at your door with groceries.

I was like, okay, thank you.

I don't even think I indicated what I wanted.

And she did that, and that was so powerful for me.

Now, this is a dear friend of mine.

One of the things I. I do talk about in Healthy Grief are things like when you want to offer support to individuals is people who, if they're anything like me, who felt like they were a burden, don't want to be a burden.

So you don't necessarily ask or if you do ask, give them two choices.

Not like, not a lot of decisions.

Right.

If you're numb, like, not a lot of decisions like my mother in law's.

And then that right now is like, do you want this or do you want that?

Or if they're really close, is something like, hey, I'm gonna come over with a cup of coffee.

Is now a good time?

So giving them the opportunity to say no.

So simple choices, this or that, or saying giving them the opportunity to say no because it helps with the decision making.

Right?

When they're just like, too overwhelmed, don't wanna burden.

So my friends saying, like, hey, I'm at the grocery store, I'm gonna show up, like, it was the best thing.

I love that so much.

I've.

I've experienced that too.

And I even offered that to somebody who had lost a parent recently.

I remember telling this person, I'm off work at 4.

I can't remember how I phrased it.

I think I said, I can come over after I get off at work.

I can get.

I can come over after I get off of work at 4.

Or do you want to be alone?

So it gave them.

It wasn't many choices.

It's like, I'm coming over or tell me you want to be alone.

Nothing too confusing or overwhelming.

And she told me she wanted to be alone.

She had her husband with her, so she was going to be okay.

But it was one of those things where I was like, okay, I know she's set for food right now because we were doing a meal train.

And I can come over or you can be left alone.

Yeah, I remember that was a hard one to do because I wanted to fix.

I wanted to do all the things, but I just had to, like, take it a step back.

Why am I doing this?

The question that you encourage to ask, what am I doing this?

Who am I doing this?

For?

What am I trying to comfort in myself?

Yeah.

Yeah.

My common phrase that I use is for.

For what purpose?

For what purpose?

And I use that for various different things.

Not only just the grief conversation, but if I'm acting or reacting to something or I want to say something, for what purpose is this coming up for me?

Can literally apply that to your whole entire life.

Yes, thank you.

I'm going to do that.

Yeah.

And replacing that instead of why.

Okay, so if you have, for example, a slightly taking out a grief, and then we'll come back.

But if you have, like, you're working with something or you have a partner or something, and they do something to say like, why did you do that?

Has a different tone than say, for what purpose.

We're coming from a place of curiosity versus judgment.

Even by replacing those.

That phrase in place of why.

And again, we can ask ourselves that, for what purpose?

Did I respond that way?

Yes.

I feel like you can work with the answer much easier as well, if you even get one.

Yeah.

And I feel like then, too, you're saying speaking to yourself a little nicer because, like, right when we, like, mess something up too.

Right.

And you're like, why?

Right.

We don't have to do that.

For what purpose did I just do that?

Exactly.

That's profound.

That is.

That's definitely something that I'm gonna take away.

I mean, I'm gonna take away so many things, but I really like that.

And I'm gonna implement that.

I can already think of many ways for, you know, like, my marriage and.

Friendships and, like, work.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Thanks.

That's what.

That's where my brain went.

I was like, ooh, I'm gonna do this at work.

Yeah, I love that.

So cool.

Yeah.

Even when it comes back to grief.

And I'll fill in a bit of my dad's story that we had earlier.

So for what purpose did I act and react that way around my father with his passing?

And at that point in time, it wasn't evident to me.

And again, I decided I was gonna coach myself through all of this.

Oh, yeah, it didn't help.

I really got in the world of nlp.

So getting into that subconscious and unconscious.

And what does NLP stand for?

Nlp.

Neuro Linguistics Programming.

So the easiest way to describe it is the things that we say are basically the programs that are set in the neurology of our body.

So if I say I'm not good enough, for example, or do things that indicate that, by the way, not good enough is a common belief that many of those clients I have work with, including myself.

So it's one of those I say.

But it's.

It gives an idea.

Like if I have.

If I'm walking around with a belief I'm not good enough, then I'm also going to be acting out with that meaning.

I may not take risks that I wouldn't normally take.

Somebody may say of comment, and I may be offense and take offense to it, for example.

So the body of the work allows me to then go deeper into understanding the.

For what purpose?

From a psychological perspective.

So going back to my father, I recognize when he was first diagnosed with cancer, prostate cancer, in this case.

I was 21 at that point in time.

I remember I was on my way to Vegas with.

With friends of mine, and I was numb the whole time.

My father told me I was numb.

I didn't know how.

I was like, I couldn't even wasn't even quite sure how my body was reacting to this news.

I just went numb.

That night in Vegas, I was curled up under the bathroom sink in a ball, bawling my eyes out, just bawling my eyes out.

At that point in time, I remember one of my friends who's 64 trying to crawl under the bathroom sink with me, like, okay, something's there, I don't.

Know what's going on, how do I.

Fix this type thing?

And I couldn't even explain it at that point in time, could not explain it.

So that was a point.

And then again, my father passed away 20 years later, something like that.

So I was doing the math.

But all this to say is anything that indicated related to potential death of my parents put me into this state.

So it was when I went through this nlp.

So somebody can say like even therapy.

So going through therapy and understanding the purpose behind it, what happened is it took me back to a time when I was five years old.

Now mind you, I was born to my parents when they were 45 and 47.

So at the time I started going to kindergarten or yeah, I was in kindergarten, my teacher pointed at my parents and said, oh, are those your grandparents?

To which my little five year old brain said, my parents look like grandparents.

Grandparents are old.

Old people die.

Die means you're not there anymore.

Okay?

So in my 45 year old little brain, I made that decision.

So here it was.

And again during the doing the NLP technique, which is typically called a breakthrough, so a deep level of hypnosis, I was coming back to this period of time where I was clearly remembering the situation.

So then I remembered a point afterwards where I can still clear as day remember me waking up on a Saturday morning and where the sun was like it was almost noon on that Saturday morning, woke up and my parents were not in the house.

And we have a big three acre backyard.

So in that moment I remember the fear starting to come up for me.

My parents are not there.

Go backwards.

My parents are not there.

My parents died.

They're old like grandparents.

All of this is a little five year old just started going through my body.

So by the time I actually did find my parents, they were out and back.

I remember this statement came to me like snot running down my face, everything.

I could barely get out.

My mom's like, oh my God, what's wrong?

I said, I thought you died, right?

So a little five year old going through that emotion because of a decision, a belief that I had made irrational Belief based upon a comment my teacher made, right.

So this I had been carrying with me from a five year old perspective.

So when I was 20 or 21 and my dad mentioned, hey, just got diagnosed with this cancer I went into, this little five year old girl came through, right?

So then later on when I'm in my, I'm doing the math here, 40s, right.

And my father then comes to the end of his life and I start getting into this transactional.

Let me just focus on the logistics, right?

That was that five year old little girl.

Part of me that was coming forward that was afraid of dad dying, but I was trying to keep the little five year old at bay, right?

So that for what purpose?

And doing the deep work allowed me to go back to the root.

The root was this five year old, right.

So I ended up going back through this body of work and healing that little five year old.

Okay?

So by the time, move forward or share where almost 10 years after my father passed away, I had gone through this work, I'd healed this five year old.

And, and when my oldest brother passed, then the day afterwards, my mom looked at me and said she was ready to go.

In that moment, I had done the healing.

The little five year old was not the one who was in control of that conversation.

Right.

I was at a more healed place to be able to have that dialogue with my mom and hold space for what she needed.

Not this little five year old that wanted so desperately to hold onto the parent.

Yeah.

And what did your mom want?

What did she say?

She said, taking back, she said, I didn't plan to live this long.

97 and a half years old, young at that time.

And I'm curious what it's like to pass over.

So in that moment and again thinking face to face with somebody who I know she held on for my oldest brother, 75 when he passed.

And she was ready.

She was ready.

And even though part of me wanted to hold on to her at that part, you know, being in my 50s, early 50s, wanting to hold on, I knew me wanting to hold onto her, and I'm going to say this with all love, would have been selfish.

Selfish.

My mom had lived a very good life, very good life.

And she was looking in my eyes for acceptance to know that I was gonna be okay.

And I was accepting what she wanted.

And within two weeks she passed.

That's so powerful.

It's a very stark contrast from finding out that your dad had cancer and putting up the wall to be the dutiful daughter and then being that way for your mom?

Yeah.

Yes, very.

Yeah.

And when we do our own work.

So the work that the two of you are doing by having these conversations, sharing your own stories, allowing other people to share their own stories, that's all part of healing.

Because the more that we can do our own healing, the more we are going to be faced with whatever different types of grief are coming up.

Right.

We're facing them from more of a healed perspective.

When we don't face it from a healed perspective, which were the clients I was getting, it starts to settle in the body and showing up in many different ways, heart problems, cancers and other things.

And that's the reason why when I came to healthy grief, I realized if I'm working with my clients who are having like significantly depressed after a divorce and had an ovarian cyst that was so inflamed she had to go in for surgery.

I had a.

Another one who was dealing with a lot of anger, past family anger, had a kidney stone.

And another one who was five years past carrying around the guilt, using her words of not being able to save her husband after committing suicide.

And here she was five years later with stage two colon cancer.

Those are the clients that I had within a two week period of time after doing the work, which was similar to what I just described me, going back to my little five year old.

Right.

Doing the work and finding that root cause and healing it from that perspective.

So being able to release the past traumas, the triggers, the limiting beliefs that are holding us down from that unconscious, subconscious perspective, then the healing, the body, it allows the body to come back to balance.

So I had the ovarian cyst.

She came back to me a month later when I did the follow up.

And she said, the doctor was so surprised.

Now it's not uncommon for cysts to recede, but what happened is the cyst had not only receded, it had completely healed over when they went in to do the surgery.

And what popped out of my mouth was, of course, cysts are pockets of unresolved sadness.

We just released the depression.

Your body came back to balance.

Of course, like my mind, logically and again intuitive logically came into that one, the kidney stones, was able to Release that within 4, 4 hours plus when we did the work, her sister, who she had this long standing disagreement with energetically her sister text her in the middle of all that.

So when you're doing that energetic work, you're also affecting other people around you.

Yes.

I love how you described it too, because I feel like Many people are.

Even though there's a lot of science backed studies that show that our bodies hold trauma in various ways, I always like to use the visual of us holding stress.

You know, like we hold our stress in our shoulders and our backs, especially men.

And if you get a massage, then that's released.

So it's similar in the sense that if we do hold stored traumas, like physical things in our body, I'm not talking about like stuck energy or energy blocks, anything like that.

Like literally they come up as a physical illness.

It would just make sense that if it is, if the root cause is a trauma related one, then if you help resolve the trauma, then it releases.

Of course there's many other causes for those kinds of illnesses.

But if we're talking specifically trauma based, grief based, where we're, I mean, we're just starting to learn about that and I think it's fascinating.

I feel like science is always catching up to the spiritual and metaphysical and quantum part of this stuff.

So it's really fascinating to know that we've been learning more about it.

And yeah, I use my massage analogy all the time because it's fairly simple.

Like my shoulders are all tight right now just because I've been at a computer all day and if I got a massage, I'm sure that would be released and feel a lot better.

But yeah, it's similar.

And that's so fascinating that being able to do that kind of work with people helps them.

Yes, yeah, it does.

And even in healthy grief, I actually bring in three main authors pertaining to what you just mentioned.

One is she's not as popular, but she is to me.

I actually carried around her book for, for five years and it is dog eared and it is Wendy Jensen the Healing Questions Guide.

So some people are familiar with Louise Hayes, you can heal your life.

Which is coming into, for example, when it comes to kidney stones.

Kidney stones are lumps of unresolved anger.

So it basically take this part of the body and then indicates what it is.

What I like about Wendy's book, and I've used it with a number of my clients too and is if it comes to say kidney stones, instead of saying what it is, it asks questions.

And I like it because then it gets into.

I quickly put an individual in more of like a calm state.

So not in a hypnotic state, just calm.

And I say first thing that comes to mind, yes or no as to whether this question resonates with you.

Like you get a sense of it.

Like for some reason that I have A feeling that.

That has some meaning for me or no.

So just a quick yes or no.

And it gives an idea about what emotions might be stuck there.

And it's not about answering all the questions positively, but I use that as a gauge to understand what emotions, what beliefs, what traumas, what griefs may be stuck in this area.

I had an interesting situation with.

And I did this all by text message with a friend of mine who had gone in, trying to remember now, she had muscle spasms that were in from her ear down to her neck, significant muscle spasms.

And the time where she told me about it had gone on for 10 days.

And she had just come home from an MRI that had.

Didn't give any indication as to what it was.

They couldn't find anything in an MRI and just sent her home with heavy pain meds.

And so I asked, I'm like, so what side of the body?

Right side.

So when she told me that I just sent by text message, I said, okay, typical male side, and went through, which could be action oriented, it could be a father, et cetera.

I just kind of bullet pointed some things.

And she said, oh my God.

I said, okay, what happened?

And she said, 11 days ago.

So the day before the symptoms started, she had a falling out with her father, which was for five years.

And she was on her way to see him.

Her husband was driving at the time.

She said, I got a mile away from his house and all of a sudden I just had a panic attack.

I couldn't bear to face him.

I didn't want to.

And I'm specifically using the words here.

I don't remember how she used it in the, in the phrase, but she said specifically face, couldn't face him, I didn't want to hear.

And something about speaking.

So it was ear, face and throat.

So that's all I did with what she.

She texted me.

I said, so you couldn't face him.

I just pulled those three phrases out that pertain to her ear.

The word face and speaking, I think, or something of those sorts.

And just to indicate the body, you talked about the shoulders.

Shoulders.

Like how often do we say, like carrying the world on our shoulders?

Or I can't handle things, or just certain things that when it comes to eyes, ears, mouth, what is it that we don't want to see, hear, speak, for example?

So the body speaks in so many different ways.

So.

So I walked her through that process and she realized, oh my God.

So she made the connection that the day before, some of this was related to her Father Then since it was close to the evening, at that point in time she had just taken a pain pill.

She was about ready to drift off.

So I basically said to her, okay, if you wake up in the middle of the night and you find yourself, if you have some pain, here is a pain paradigm that you can do that can also help you identify the pain and release it.

And it's this simple.

So I'll tell you about it and then I'll come back to her.

So if you have any form of pain like you mentioned, shoulders for example or back pain is indicate.

So on a level of 1 to 10, 10 being the most excruciating, 0 really being there's no pain there at all, what is your level of pain?

So you can just think that for yourself and you can say out loud and it's perfect out loud, whatever that number is for yourself.

Then the next question is for yourself what am I feeling in this moment?

What one word am I feeling in this moment?

And verbalize, you can, you can think about what the questions are.

But verbalizing the number and verbalizing the emotion out loud.

Okay, then repeat that, continue to repeat that until you start getting the number start showing up to a point where it's more manageable which could be like a three or two or one or even down to a, a zero.

Okay.

So that's the pain paradigm.

The concept behind that.

Yes, it's an NLP neuro linguistics program technique.

The idea is you're making the conscious and unconscious subconscious connection between what physically is showing up in your body and if it is an emotion related that you're identifying what that emotion is.

Because our body is like a toddler saying pay attention to me, pay attention to me.

Right.

It's tugging on us like a little child.

And, and I have five but little child.

And if you're not paying attention it's going to do something even more louder.

Right?

So, so she, this was a text message I got the next morning.

My friend woke up at like 2:30 in the morning in excruciating pain in that area, saw my text message.

So she walked through it.

And so she said she walked through it and when she came to the word redeemed rejection, the pain went away.

And she said her realization, so this was a text message I got in the morning was she said I realized that I was feeling rejected by my father.

Here it was five years ago and I couldn't face him now.

And that's where some of those things were coming up.

So by the time she had realized this.

The pain and the muscle spasms that she also had in her face that had gone on from for 10 days was no longer there.

So I also told her, now you have the awareness.

It doesn't necessarily mean it's going to completely go away unless you continue to go through that.

Like the awareness is there.

You've paid attention to the little toddlers.

Yeah.

Because it's still a physical thing that has taken root in your body now.

So you still have to kind of go through the motions of working on that kind of like the muscles thing.

Like one massage isn't going to make it go away totally.

Like, I'll probably have to be easy on my shoulders, be mindful, get more massages.

But you also have to be self aware.

I feel like that's a key part of it, like being aware enough to identify those feelings.

Because the average person who doesn't, who isn't self aware or can identify their emotions wouldn't get to rejection.

I feel like maybe it would in very rare cases.

But I feel like you have to be willing to look at yourself and what actually is this that I'm feeling right now and see saying it out loud.

Yes, Yes.

I love the verbalizing thing too, because that's like releasing the power of it.

It is.

Words are powerful.

Thoughts are powerful.

Yep.

Very powerful.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's amazing work.

It is.

I love it.

I love it.

And that's the reason why I wrote Healthy Grief.

Because going back to those three clients that I had within that two week period of time, I mean, everything from the ovarian cyst to the kidney stones to the stage two colon cancer, being reduced.

Okay, so not completely going away, but being reduced.

I realized at this point in time, what's the theme?

And I decided at that point in time I was not going to focus on trauma.

That word, trauma.

Because that is not my background.

I didn't want to get into traumas for those other people, people who have major things.

That's not me.

And I came to grief because all of us can relate to grief one way or another, even if we think about death and dying our own or others.

Right.

So I wanted to capitalize on something that everybody could relate to.

And my main focus when I wrote that book was how can they do it in such a way where it doesn't settle in their body?

How can they do it healthfully?

Which, by the way, the first title was Good Grief.

But then Charlie Brown and everything else showed up.

So it's like, how can we do it Healthfully.

So, yeah, healthy grief.

Normalizing and navigating loss in a culture of toxic positivity.

And then I was, I love stories, just like we're having here.

And what you're doing is like people telling stories.

And I also knew I didn't want it to be just about me.

That's just, that's just not the way I am.

And also I have my client stories, right?

And I had other people who are like, how, hey, my story here, this and that, that relating to it.

So it ended up being 30 grief survivor, what I call 30 grief survivor case studies.

So individuals who are willing to share their stories and they were farther enough along in the grief process that they weren't going to be re traumatized by sharing their story.

So then I turned them into case studies because what I did was I used the model that I have in the book.

So you read their story.

And then in the end I say, okay, now this is how the model is.

So they get to apply and see the model from the stories.

So sometimes when they pick up the big book, I say start with the stories first because it's going to introduce them to the model in and of themselves.

So then what's the model?

Right?

Yeah, yeah.

What's the model?

The framework.

It was a shower moment where I went into the shower and I like, aha.

Shower moment.

I get my best downloads when I'm either in the shower or washing dishes with my hands.

So water, water connecting with that.

So I was in the shower and I said, okay, I want something that's quick and easy.

I'm into like threes and fives, like just something that's quick and easy, something that's memorable.

And I was in the shower and I went, grief, grief.

Grief is five letters, right?

How can I got, you know, they're going to remember this.

So it's a healthy grief framework.

Okay, Healthy grief.

And when I'm helping other individuals, especially with kids, think about this model, I always add in the body parts because I think that's important.

Sometimes you can think about the body parts more than just the grief model.

So people can relate to it in different way.

But it is simple.

I have therapists, I even have doctors and funeral professionals who use this framework.

And then you can tie on anything into the framework.

Even it's not of a religious perspective.

So people.

I've actually had that question, like, you know, you're spiritual.

Is this spiritual?

Is this of a certain religion?

It's like, no, this is.

You can tie in whatever you want.

To do.

Anybody can use it.

Yeah, anybody can use it.

Because it is so simple, so easy.

It is not rocket science.

You ready?

Okay.

Go for it.

So, g, gather your thoughts.

What are you thinking in the moment?

Or and also as a supporter, what might somebody else be thinking in the moment?

Okay.

So gather your thoughts.

R. Relate to your emotions.

So what am I feeling at this moment?

What might somebody else be feeling?

Right.

So what are you thinking?

What are you feeling?

Okay, gather your thoughts, Relate to the emotions.

Then I is your feet.

So steps involve an action.

Involve an action.

So I was also working with some clients during COVID So, for example, one action step.

And it doesn't need to be major.

It can be something simple.

Like one of my clients was getting out of bed before noon.

Okay.

Then we layered on top of it, taking a shower, dressing, getting back into a regular eating pattern.

So thinking about going through grief, it could be whatever that is like getting up before a certain time, getting dressed, taking a shower.

So it can be simple things.

So it's the involve in action.

So feet.

Okay.

Okay.

Then E is ease with support.

What formal or informal support do I need right now?

And that's where I tie in the story of my friend who gave me the groceries.

Right.

It doesn't need to be like, it may be a reflection, referral for a doctor, a lawyer or something like that.

It could be something.

And I give a whole bunch of ideas from like groceries to taking the kids if somebody has kids, to tutoring, to taking them to school, to overnights.

Just anything that is formal, informal.

I had one gentleman who said I just needed somebody who could mow my lawn, buy me toilet paper, and clean my bathroom.

Like, you know that.

That's informal.

Yeah.

Right.

And is E. Were you holding your hands?

Okay.

Yeah, like hand holding.

Hand holding.

Support.

Okay.

So ease with support.

And then eyes focus on the future.

Okay.

And the future.

Yeah, focus on the future and the future could be the next 10 minutes.

It could be the end of the day.

It does not need to be longer distance.

Right.

The last thing you want to ask somebody who's raw in grief.

So what do you see?

Your one year, five year plan?

Yeah.

No, no, no.

So, for example, I used this recently when it comes to the holidays.

So at the time we're recording this just coming into the holidays, and it can be something as simple.

Simple as this.

You see somebody start to tear up over a certain song or the mention of a certain name or smelling a certain recipe that, say, grandma used to make.

Like anything that can Tear them up.

What are you thinking right now?

Right.

Or what's coming up for you right now?

Just getting an idea about their thoughts.

You know, how are you feeling in this moment?

Or if they did say a feeling, you know, relating to that feeling.

Feeling for them, honoring, you know, again, it's not mine, but for them.

And it could be the action steps.

Could be.

Do you want to take a moment and go outside, like offering them something Ease.

May I sit with you?

Would you like some water?

Future, what would help you most by the end of this dinner this evening?

It could be just a simple as that.

And it's not about fixing.

No, not about fixing.

It's how can we hold space for and help somebody process.

Yep.

How can we be in this space.

Right now, in this moment?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I love that so much.

Yeah, that's good.

And thank you for sharing that.

You're welcome.

And I know you have some other offerings as well.

Would you like to share about those?

Sure.

Well, I'm going to start with the publications first and then I'll go into other offerings as well.

So.

Yes, Healthy grief has become a textbook.

So I'm happy to say that.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Yes.

So it's great using that for funeral professionals.

So that's a textbook helping them and the doing what they're doing, especially when I'm talking with funeral professionals coming in, is they're face to face with a lot of those people who are raw right after going through a significant loss.

And even for them as individuals who on a regular basis are facing those people.

So it is helpful for them to think about how can I take care of myself through the process.

So the book itself is 400 pages because 2/3 of the book are the 30 grief survivor case studies that are in there.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Which again is seven different categories of different kinds of grief.

So from death and dying to relationships, from breakups and divorces to family estrangements or friendship estrangements or ambivalent friendships to.

And I can't think of all the others in order but identity.

So career, identity, retirement, empty nester.

I have one category related to maternity.

So one who is a stillbirth and another one who had to make a decision about ending, terminating because of.

Yeah, so all those were in there.

So.

And then a trilogy of them where there is three.

You mentioned compounded griefs.

So three different types of griefs that happen at time.

The same same time.

For example, I've shared mine already, which was Death, Dying and Dementia is the name of the chapter about the loss of my brother, my mother, and then three weeks later, my remaining brother was diagnosed with dementia as a whammy.

Right.

To three of them.

So it's giving people an opportunity to learn about grief through the stories and learn about the model through the stories.

So that's the book.

And then this year came out with the guidebook Moving the Practical Guide to Healthy Grief.

And that truly is the workbook around just the model, that healthy grief framework, an easy way to be able to process through and gives open spaces for reflections and action steps.

It has a colorful visuals in there.

People have even said they love the feel of the paper, which.

Which is what I love.

Right.

For somebody, this really is a gift to give somebody going through grief.

So that's what moving forward is.

And the most recent is the Oracle cards, the Splash of Hope and Inspiration Oracle cards, which is a great way to, in a loving way, gamify grief, like have that conversation or as somebody recently said to me, hey, somebody who's wrong grief.

It may be.

It may be difficult for them to pick up a book and read, but picking up a card and reading, that can be so much more simple, right?

Yes, we're excited about that one.

And it literally is a splash of hope when we need it or a dash of inspiration if we just need a pick me up.

So it's not necessarily just focused on grief.

Yes.

Because there's three different categories in there too.

So we love that.

We're definitely going to be going into depth about that on a future segment for sure.

Yes.

As you guys know, we have the grief Deck pull segments.

And so in the future you will see Dr. Karen's Oracle deck on our podcast.

So we are very excited to share that with you guys.

Yes, definitely.

Yeah.

And I've gotten a lot of feedback on that too.

So love that.

Love, love, love.

Great.

That's so exciting.

Yes.

Yeah.

And focusing on grief is just the entryway.

So I wanted to get something out to individuals that was easy to use and easy to remember and easy to understand, even with kids.

So that's the reason why I go through that.

The head, the heart, the feet, the hands and the eyes.

You don't need to think like, what, what does G stand for again?

What does R stand for again?

What am I thinking?

What am I feeling?

What action steps, step.

Even if it's one can I take?

What support do I need?

Formal or informal?

And what does the future look like?

Even if it is 10 minutes from now, it doesn't need to be something Drawn out and complex.

And then when it's working with individuals, similar to the story I shared about me and Miss little five year old Karen, I tell that story.

Actually that's one of the first stories in healthy grief is working with individuals to say, okay, what is underneath?

For what purpose am I acting and reacting this way, thinking and feeling this way in regards to grief?

Because I typically say we are acting on our best behavior, but when things happen, we get in a car accident, we lose somebody, whatever it is, the way in which we act and react gives a lot of information to.

It's like a window into our unconscious and subconscious mind that's there.

It's like I wouldn't have known or brought to the surface my little 5 year old Karen that was concerned about my parents dying had I not gone through that process.

It was just a window is bubbling up and saying there's something there when I was five years old.

And so I help individuals go back and identify and release their version of the little five year old.

Right.

Whatever it is for them.

So that when we're doing that, then when we're facing those other.

Like I went from, that was my story with my dad.

But then when I lost my brother and my mom had that like it was, it was different for me because I had done the healing and I'd done the work.

So that's what I do for individuals is I help them identify those past traumas, triggers and limiting beliefs so their bodies can come back to balance.

That is incredible work and important work.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

So good.

Yes.

Well, thank you so much for being on our podcast Stories baby.

Yeah, I'm like the step parent.

I don't know if you've heard that about Story Story, but like this is her baby.

And thank you so much for coming on and sharing not only your personal story, but like your gifts with the world.

Like that is so incredible and it's just amazing.

Yeah, it's.

It's amazing to say the least.

I could, yeah.

Use so many wonderful adjectives, but like amazing and yeah.

And so closing out.

We always like to ask everybody.

So.

Do you believe that there is an upside to grief?

Yes.

Me.

Yes.

Yes.

Yeah.

Did you hear what I just said?

We learn so much more about ourselves when we go through various different types of griefs.

And yes, it is very hard and challenging and sad and we can fill in all of those words when we are going through a significant loss in our life.

So that is not discounting that loss in our life.

We learn a lot more about ourselves in the process.

That's definitely an upside in my book.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

And so for those of you listening, if you guys feel like Dr. Karen's story really resonated with you and you got some good stuff out of it and you can relate, we will be having her back next week and we are going to do moments of knowing.

So we are very excited for this one.

Yeah.

Very excited for this segment with Dr. Karen.

Mom are so great.

They are.

So thank you so much for coming on and sharing space with us.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Yeah, yeah.

It's.

It's the more we tell our stories, the more we're connecting with people.

So thank you for the two of you for doing this.

Truly.

Thank you.

Connection is super important.

Yeah, it is.

All right.

You want to close us out?

Yeah.

Don't forget to like follow and subscribe and we will see you next week.

Bye.

Bye.