PART 2

[00:00:00] Ross: Hi there, and a very warm welcome to Season 5, Episode 51 of PeopleSoup. It's Ross McIntosh here.

[00:00:06] Carrie: One of our instinctive tendencies that we, we struggle with as human beings. And this is a hardwired need and search for comfort and to move our attention from comfort towards meaning. So rather than looking for what's comfortable and even pleasurable, which is what Our mind is on the lookout for and we're hardwired to search for that.

[00:00:37] That's a survival. function. So moving from comfortable and pleasurable to meaningful and making that switch, and that's, that's, um. In terms of where our attention is and also where our behavior is. And I think that becomes particularly relevant in the workplace when so much of our focus in our work is on outcome. I mean, it's almost inherent in, in, in our jobs, isn't it?

[00:01:10] Ross: Peasoopers, it's the second part of my chat with Dr. Carrie Haywood. Carrie is a clinical psychologist and also happens to be an adventurer, a creative, an innovator, and an author. And in this episode, we dive into Carrie's book collection called Being Human. The collection is beautifully presented into four bite-sized books titled The Lost Son, the Flower in the Pocket, the Unwanted Friend.

[00:01:37] and the dragonfly in the haze. and if you're intrigued, listen on, because we start the episode with my review of the books, And then Chatterbox carries intention and motivation for the collection. We consider how they could be useful in the work environment, explore the being human method, and finish with a beautifully observed takeaway.

[00:01:56] [00:02:00] those of you who are new to PeopleSoup, hi! Hola! Welcome to the community. For those of you who are regular P supers, welcome back. Thanks for joining us again. We're an award winning podcast where we share evidence based behavioral science in a way that's practical, accessible, and fun.

[00:02:27] Our mission is to unlock workplace potential with expert perspectives from contextual behavioral science.

[00:02:33] Let's just scoot over to the news desk. Reviews are in for part one of my chat with Kerry. On our WhatsApp message, a dedicated P super said, I've just listened to your first chat with Carrie Haywood. It was such a great episode. I needed to hear Polly Polly, and what are we here for so, so much. It made me cry.

[00:02:52] Well, thanks so much to That P Super and to everyone who listened, rated, reviewed, and talked about the episode. If you tell a friend about the podcast, they might listen, and that way we can perhaps reach more people with stuff that could be useful. Each review that's read out on the show will receive a couple of our freshly designed bookmarks, Dispatched by my dad in the Global Distribution Centre in the North East Powerhouse.

[00:03:15] What more of an incentive do you need? The first bookmarks have landed so Big G, my dad, is now preparing the next batch. For now, get a brew on and have a listen to part two of my chat with Carrie Haywood. Carrie, I'd like to talk about your book collection called Being Human, which I've read and I love, but I'd like to start with my review, if I may.

[00:03:45] Carrie: Wow, thank you.

[00:03:46] Ross: folks, Carrie hasn't heard this review,

[00:03:48] Carrie: She's nervous.

[00:03:49] Ross: I'll just launch into it. So, I wholeheartedly applaud this creative endeavour.

[00:03:55] It's a wonderful, accessible and practical introduction to acceptance and [00:04:00] commitment therapy, backed by years of research and application. The writing is extraordinary. It's like a gentle walk through another person's life and the challenges they face. Each story holds up a mirror to the reader. And although there was no direct contextual similarity in each of the four volumes to my life, I felt a profound connection with the challenges they faced.

[00:04:24] These books touched me deeply. Each volume concludes with an afterword, which brings the threads of each story together and presents practical approaches to using the ACT framework in our lives. Aside from the beautiful content,

[00:04:37] Carrie: Perfect.

[00:04:41] Ross: Carrie, thank you for bringing this collection into the world. I love it.

[00:04:45] Carrie: Wow. Thank you, Ross. That's. Greatly appreciated and very generous. Thank you.

[00:04:52] Ross: here's a, an insight.

[00:04:53] I've read each of them

[00:04:55] Carrie: Oh,

[00:04:55] wow.

[00:04:56] wonderful.

[00:04:57] Ross: because, because I wanted to, I loved it as it was emerging. So I read them in the order and it came in a beautiful,

[00:05:05] Carrie: Mm hmm.

[00:05:07] Ross: beautifully presented. And I started and I was like, Oh, God, this is good. And then I read the next one and I was like, I had a pause.

[00:05:15] And then a couple of days later I read the next one and then it started to see how they were all fitting together. And it was like, I kind of just made my heart sing. So I thought, right, I'm going to read them again because they're super readable and they really, really resonated deeply. So, so

[00:05:33] Carrie: no, thank

[00:05:34] you.

[00:05:34] That's I can't express enough how wonderful it is to hear that. And I love hearing that you've read it a few, or read them rather a few times because I've realized along the way that I think that's probably, I wouldn't say needed, but certainly allowing for greater benefit.

[00:05:53] Ross: And I saw different facets the second

[00:05:55] time. So, let's start at the, as [00:06:00] they say in the Sound of Music, let's start at the very beginning. And, why? What was the, what was the seed planted here that inspired you to create these books?

[00:06:12] Carrie: There were a number of seeds with this one, um, and they, look, maybe it even goes back to, as I said, my confusion, uh, that initially. initially came up when I was first introduced to the model. I, really wanted to find a way to bring all the concepts together, the teachings together, in a very simple way.

[00:06:39] So initially I actually wrote the books to use with clients. That was, That was the initial intention. and and then I thought, wouldn't it be great if I could also reach a general audience. So for, for people that know knowledge of, of that, or even not even necessarily someone who was even looking for personal development books.

[00:07:06] Who moved my cheese?

[00:07:06] Carrie: And I think that was motivated by a book that I read in my twenties called, Who Moved My Cheese? by Spencer Johnson. I thought you'd know that one.

[00:07:18] Yeah.

[00:07:18] very well known book. And, and again, I don't even really remember how I came across this book. It, I think I literally just found it. It was lying in the house.

[00:07:32] I don't even know how it got into the house. I still lived at home with my parents. And. I picked it up and I read it in one sitting and there was one teaching that has stayed with me ever since. And that was a question that is asked in the book, which is what would you do if you weren't afraid? And it stayed with me.

[00:07:55] And it's a very, the question's an interesting one because it's obvious in [00:08:00] many ways of, I think we know intellectually that, you know, we shouldn't not do things primarily because of fear, but it's another to connect to that in the moment. And that, and I think that question is quite powerful to, to help you connect to that in the moment.

[00:08:17] I'm digressing, but my point being, um, it stayed with me and, and I guess the other similarity with this book is it's, it's metaphor. And so it's this beautiful little story about four mice and. These mice dealing with unpredictability and change and how each. of, of, yeah, each mouse has a different reaction to that. And so that really contributed to this, this concept of writing in story a metaphor with the idea to be able to read each book in one sitting. And even if it was just one takeaway that people. really connected to and, and we're able to bring it to, to their lives. I think the, the idea of also writing story was inspired by Russ Harris's Demons on a Boat metaphor. Um, it's one I often read to clients or I'll have the client read it, but often I do read it to them in sessions. So I. Invite them to just listen and, and absorb. And there was very early in my career, there was one. young person I was working with and I read it to them and it didn't, I don't remember at the time there being a huge aha moment, but what was fascinating when I finished working with this client, they wrote me a letter and used the imagery and teachings from the demons on a boat [00:10:00] Metaphor that Russ created and interweave this in their reflection on, on how, um, on how they feel like they had transformed and, um, what had shifted for them.

[00:10:14] And I thought, wow, like, as I said, I wasn't even aware at the time, that this had had that level of impact. And so it just really stood out to me, the power of story and metaphor and the ability to, for people to be able to connect in such a simple way, but powerful That's really what led to the concept and structure of these books.

[00:10:41] Ross: I, I'm a big fan of metaphor and, and storytelling. I think it's almost counter cultural to a self help book, where people, people sometimes go to a self help book saying, right, I want some answers. I want some quick answers that I can immediately apply and boom, then I can crack on. They're sometimes not willing to take that pause and just embrace a story. And I think this is what sets yours. Apart from a, what we might call a traditional self help book. That, that power of the, the storytelling and the metaphor.

[00:11:19] So, did the book come before or after Zanzibar?

[00:11:22] Carrie: question. So it. It came before, the first book was actually already published, the first book in the series. And that was self published in a way, and I started to write. Books two and even three during, our experience in Zanzibar and then had the, um, the fortune of, of finding a publisher to, who actually then took on the whole series.

[00:11:49] And it was their idea to, which makes so much sense in hindsight to actually write the series at, you know, at the same time and, and [00:12:00] release them even at the same time as well. So book four actually. evolved. My, my, I guess the inspiration for Book 4 came from a lot of my experience in Zanzibar. So it's nice to have had that connection with Book 4.

[00:12:16] Hmm.

[00:12:17] Ross: Hmm, and what was the writing process like for you?

[00:12:21] Hmm,

[00:12:23] Carrie: Oh, look, I loved it. Um, I would never have seen myself as a writer and, you know, it's still hard to see myself as a writer. I think the imposter, the imposter voice is coming in there. but I, I, yeah, I guess I was surprised by how much I enjoyed particularly the writing of the stories and, and the creativity. That I really connected to in that, it was part time, you know, I, I think as a lot of people, particularly in this field, they need to create the time. and so that was sort of frustrating, I guess, in many ways, because I just wanted to be able to dive into it. but that was never going to really happen.

[00:13:08] And so It required some discipline, I think, in carving out that time, but it was wonderful because if I had spare time, I saw it as almost a form of, recreation, of relaxation rather than work. And I think that was, that was also helped by not having any huge deadlines with it, at least not initially, which meant it was quite a drawn out process from the very first book in its, original form, but that was okay. And it meant that I still saw it that way and still experienced it that way rather than as a task, as I said. so yeah, I really enjoyed it.

[00:13:49] Ross: it just resonates so much when I hear you say that, that writing was like a form of. form of relaxation because I think that comes through and I think it's important to write it from [00:14:00] that position not being beset by looming deadlines. I think that comes through in the writing.

[00:14:07] Carrie: Yeah. That's interesting.

[00:14:09] Carrie's Book's Applied to the Workplace

[00:14:09] Ross: I can see this book being of real use and value to people in the workplace, but how could we work on presenting it to people in the workplace? Any, any thoughts on

[00:14:19] How could we present these to the workplace

[00:14:19] Carrie: Hmm. That's an interesting one. Um, particularly as I say that it's not even, you wouldn't necessarily look at these books and say them as. the traditional self help book. I think they reach people in a way where I had this, in terms of how they're presented, I had this vision of them being on the counter in a bookstore and somebody is in the process of purchasing whatever they are.

[00:14:49] And then we'll just go, ah, we'll see the book and, and pick it up because something has grabbed them. And That be the kind of introduction. So if, if I'm thinking about that in a workplace, I think they could be offered in some informal way like that. I've had actually organizations.gift them to their employees. and they are there, they're presented as a psychology gift book. So the way they are physically presented sort of fits with that. Otherwise, I think the other vision for them was It is a teaching tool at the same time. So I will often give them to clients and which one I give them sort of depends where we are in the process, but I will give them quite early on as a way to create a foundation for the work that we're going to do together.

[00:15:43] Um, so even if they were presented in that way, almost as a sort of, you a takeaway for people to read, creating a foundation for what might then follow in terms of any training or workplace activity.

[00:15:59] Ross: [00:16:00] Yeah. Because it will now be featured in my list of resources for people in the workplace. And

[00:16:05] I guess training could also be structured around it. The, the being human methodology. Would you, could you unpack that for us? The being human methodology, the, the, the

[00:16:15] framework.

[00:16:17] The Being Human Framework - some audiogram potential here

[00:16:17] Carrie: The framework came from, again, this need I had to really simplify the model and the processes and So the Being Human Method, I mean, you could even, I've, I've structured into four parts, which follow the four books, but you could even simplify it into two parts. And, and really what it's about, it's the, the process of noticing what I refer to as our humanness. And that's our innate psychological experiences and the, the hardwired struggle that we can have with unwanted experiences underpinned by our survivor response. And so the idea is that, again, this innate struggle is shared by us, or it just looks different, how it plays out, how it. is presented and manifested is different.

[00:17:15] And so the being human method, as I said, is, is the practice of, of noticing our innate struggle with those unwanted experiences and to be able to normalize and create that acceptance and compassion for what we are experiencing internally, namely our emotional experience and also our thinking experience. And the. The practice of noticing that allows us choice to come back to our beingness and the beingness is really that connection to in ACT terminology, our values, our core values in more layman terminology. It's [00:18:00] fundamentally the person we want to be in the life we want to live. And so, very simply. By noticing our humanness and creating normalization and acceptance around that, we are able to then have choice and reconnection to our beingness, the person we want to be and how we want to live in terms of what matters.

[00:18:21] Ross: Love it. Uh, how's the approach and the books, how are they

[00:18:24] landing?

[00:18:25] Carrie: Varied, really varied. And I think that's because varied in the sense of, um, There's the two audiences that I'm, I'm, hearing about in terms of their experience. So there's the general audience, again, people that don't necessarily know about ACT aren't necessarily even seeking such teachings. And then there's the client experience as well. And so I think there is a difference. I think, what I'm noticing about the general audience is, Oh, look, this probably applies to the, my clients as well, but the general audience I, I, what's, what I've found really interesting is that each person tends to really be drawn to one book in particular. And, and so I found that quite fascinating, is that about what they're going through in their life at that time or possibly even historically something that stood out for them. And so even though the four books interconnect and, and are sort of the different pieces of the overall being human puzzle. yeah, it's interesting to hear that certain books turned out for, for different people. the other thing I'm noticing as, as I referred to earlier is that, and as you commented on your experience of reading them a few times really gave you new insights each time. So one thing I actually regret not putting in the books is maybe, maybe, uh, a sort of, I guess, a recommendation or an invitation to read it a few times, read them a few times.

[00:19:56] and then with clients it's, I'm finding it's, [00:20:00] it's. a way, and this is, you know, this is what I, I'd really hope for the books was to just bring these teachings to life

[00:20:07] and find,

[00:20:09] as you said, it's not because it's metaphor. They're not necessarily connecting to the actual content of the characters experience, but certainly the process and, and yeah, and so it's, it's, I guess, helping. them to really, really consolidate these learnings. And, and I haven't had this experience yet, but coming back to my own experience with who moved my cheese and the The takeaway that just stayed with me and I still implement and use to this day, I'm hoping time to come. I hear people, um, I would say that something I've lived by both professional, well, I think probably mostly professionally for a long time is the power of small and the power in small. And what I mean by that is Something very simple people are able to connect to. and really implement can be life changing in any shape or form.

[00:21:17] But also the power of small in, if these books one person, then I would love for them to help many more. Of course I would. But, you know, this, this is something that I, I really noticed When we created the mindful walk and we were running these walks again, it wasn't important for me to have hundreds and hundreds and thousands of people at this event.

[00:21:42] What was important for me was to have the intimacy and the personalized experience. And I remember saying to my business partner at the time, if it, if it helps one person, then I'll be happy. And, and I think I've tried

[00:21:57] to.

[00:21:57] And, and have really [00:22:00] maintained that way of thinking about the books as well.

[00:22:03] Ross: mm And I have no doubt they, they will already be helping more than one person. I loved it that you said some people had a favorite ' cause I think I had two,

[00:22:12] if

[00:22:13] Carrie: It's very much allowed.

[00:22:15] Ross: I, I loved The Unwanted Friend and I loved The Dragonfly in the Haze.

[00:22:21] Those two, I loved them all, but those two really were like, oh, good. And I can see myself going back to them.

[00:22:28] Now, I'm curious about the writing process, just nipping back to that when you said it was quite it was quite a relaxing experience. Were there ever any moments where you thought, oh, can I continue with this? Were there ever any of that unhelpful stuff that got in the way of it?

[00:22:43] The Writing Process

[00:22:43] Carrie: Not with the writing process. Um, as I said, I think going at my own pace and seeing it as this vehicle for that creativity and doing something that really mattered to me. Yeah, there was nothing that really got in the way with that. I think the biggest thing that has threatened, to get in the way for me is, step, which is getting the books out there.

[00:23:10] Hiding behind the book

[00:23:10] Carrie: And it's interesting. I often laugh with, with people when I, when I tell them about the fact that part of what felt comfortable to me about writing a book was I falsely believed that I could just hide behind the book. Here was a way to be able to share some knowledge and some teachings. And what I really cared about in that way, anonymously, and I could hide behind the book.

[00:23:40] I didn't need to be public. I didn't need to get myself out there, which I find very difficult. And I couldn't have been more wrong in terms of making sure a book is out there and, and people know about it, then you can't hide behind it. So I think that's been the biggest

[00:23:58] challenge for

[00:23:59] Ross: [00:24:00] Yeah.

[00:24:00] Yeah. You have to go on Yeah. Not these, I like Ross because it's just you and I. and your pea supers, of course. But

[00:24:07] Carrie: they're to come at the moment. It's just you and I.

[00:24:10]

[00:24:10] Ross: Yeah, exactly.

[00:24:11] So, Carrie, are there any other projects in the pipeline

[00:24:15] now?

[00:24:16] Carrie: There are actually another project that's been at a more snail pace is, um, a little animation I'm creating with Lizzie, the illustrator of the books. And, um, A designer that I'm working with who's, who's, dealing with the animation side of things. And the animation is really focused on the nature of thinking.

[00:24:43] And again, it uses metaphor and really explores how our thoughts grow and become habits. And fundamentally what sort of underpins a lot of our habitual thinking so that you know, a lot of the negativity bias and self doubt and fear and a lot of those very, very things. Typical, unhelpful, and unwanted thoughts that we can find ourselves struggling with as human beings. So, the animations are sort of, again, a bit of a novel way to really explore that. So that will be, I think, within the next 12 months or so. It's a bit of a, again, a slower project. And I do have another idea for the next book, um, but that's very much in its infancy.

[00:25:32] So, we'll see where that goes.

[00:25:33] Ross: Oh, that's exciting.

[00:25:35] Carrie: Yeah.

[00:25:36] Ross: Yeah, we'll get you back on

[00:25:37] Carrie: Oh, about your next book.

[00:25:40] Ross: Whatever it may be.

[00:25:41] Carrie: Wonderful.

[00:25:42] Takeaway for Adults in the Workplace - Good audiogram content here

[00:25:42] Ross: So Kerry, is there a brief take away for the PSupers that might find useful in terms of their life and being an adult in the workplace?

[00:25:51] Carrie: Mm. I would love to share with the pea soupers, uh, something that I'm talking with people a lot about at the [00:26:00] moment.

[00:26:00] And again, it's something that feels quite simple, but really addresses One of our instinctive tendencies that we, we struggle with as human beings. And this is a hardwired need and search for comfort and to move our attention from comfort towards meaning. So rather than looking for what's comfortable and even pleasurable, which is what Our mind is on the lookout for and we're hardwired to search for that.

[00:26:37] That's a survival. function. So moving from comfortable and pleasurable to meaningful and making that switch, and that's, that's, um. In terms of where our attention is and also where our behavior is. And I think that becomes particularly relevant in the workplace when so much of our focus in our work is on outcome. I mean, it's almost inherent in, in, in our jobs, isn't it? That if I think about the work as a psychologist, it's people come to see us. With an outcome in mind, and we see our role as helping them to get that outcome. Am I doing my job properly if I'm not getting that outcome? And I think that applies to pretty much every job. You know, I will hear that when I talk to people about This struggle we have with being outcome focused as human beings, a very typical reaction to that will be, yeah, but it's my job to achieve that, to get to that, to accomplish that. And so it's a real, it's really difficult because. There's this inherent assumption we can [00:28:00] control those outcomes and that it's an expectation to control those outcomes. And that's in terms of what we achieve in our jobs, but also other people as well. Other people and what they do. is also an outcome. And so no wonder we end up in a lot of struggle, because there's this assumption that we should be able to control these things. And we don't have that control ever fully over outcome, whether it's in terms of what we produce, what we achieve, what eventuates. What happens in the future. Other people's behavior.

[00:28:37] They're all outcomes. And then the emotional experience we have around that is another outcome. So how we react internally to what's going on around us is another outcome. Again, one that we can't fully and directly control, yet we're wired to try and control it. And even as I said, and operating in the assumption that it's our job to control it.

[00:29:03] So we've got like this hardwired tendency to be outcome focused and the need for control in that way, coupled with This expectation that it's my job and am I doing my job properly if I'm not achieving those outcomes and so we inherently sort of lean towards that and therefore experience discomfort if those outcomes aren't achieved and then we struggle with that discomfort and the result of that can be significant distress and disharmony.

[00:29:38] Thank you. In the workplace and maybe that even filters into the rest of our lives within ourselves. And if we can actually move our attention instead to what's meaningful, rather than what's comfortable, particularly when That discomfort has come from experiences or situations that we cannot [00:30:00] control. And maybe, in our experiences at work, they can't always be comfortable because we can't always control those outcomes.

[00:30:08] But can they always be meaningful? And given we know that where there's pain, where there's hurt, there's what we care about, there is always meaning available to us. It's the two sides of the same coin and the meaning is available to us always, yet our attention is not naturally there. As we, we often talk about this part of the mind doesn't really care about what's meaningful.

[00:30:36] It's not wired to care about what's meaningful. It's wired to keep us alive. For the mind, comfort is an indication that we're safe. There's a better chance of survival if we're, if we're safe. So that's where the mind naturally leans towards, we need this comfort. Therefore, I need to be out of control to ensure comfort. And so we, our mind's not going to do it for us. And so we need to consciously be able to move our attention and lean towards meaningful rather than comfort.

[00:31:09] Hmm.

[00:31:11] Ross: Whoa, I love the way you present that to us. That's really powerful Kerry, thank you. The mind's not going to do it for us. How right that is. And if we can just notice the meaning. Wow. Carrie, thank you for that takeaway. It just really, really resonates. And particularly for the workplace, thinking about we can be so focused on other things and imagine we can control other things.

[00:31:39] Carrie: Hmm.

[00:31:39] Ross: Beautiful. Carrie, thank you so much for joining me on PeopleSoup. It's been an absolute joy to, to hear you speak about your projects and your books, and thank you for being such a role model for us all as well. It's really

[00:31:56] great

[00:31:56] to chat to you.

[00:31:57] Carrie: Oh, that's lovely, Ross. It's, it's [00:32:00] been incredibly enjoyable and as many people have said that have come before me. Y'all. aura that is so comforting and peaceful. And as I said, it, I've been able to just delude myself that it's just you and I having a conversation here, which has been much more comfortable for me.

[00:32:21] Um, it's been a real pleasure and I feel like I could chat with you for hours. So thank you so much for, for having me Russ.

[00:32:29] Ross: Oh, Carrie, thank you.

[00:32:31] That's it, peace supers, part two of my chat with Carrie in the bag.

[00:32:40] I'd like to thank Carrie for her openness and thoughtfulness in developing the Being Human collection. Please do check it out. Now, PCPers, we need your help to reach more people, so

[00:32:52]

[00:32:52] you enjoyed this episode of the podcast, we'd love you to do three things.

[00:32:56] Ross: Number one, share it with one other person. Number two, subscribe and give us a five star review, whatever platform you're on.

[00:33:04] Number three, share the heck out of it on the socials. This would all help us reach more people and make some noise with stuff that could be useful. We'd love to hear from you and you can get in touch at peoplesoup. pod at gmail. com. On X, formerly known as Twitter, we are at peoplesouppod. on the gram, known as insta, We are at People. Soup and on Facebook we are at PeopleSoupPod. You can also drop us a review or get in touch using a voice note on WhatsApp.

[00:33:32] Thanks to Andy Glenn for his spoon magic and Alex Engelberg for his vocals. Most of all, dear listener, thanks to you. Look after yourselves, peace supers, and bye for now.

[00:33:41] Carrie: I've come across your name a lot. And

[00:33:48] so it was a pleasure in, in itself just to be able to meet you, put a face to the name and, and you're doing wonders with your podcast. So congratulations.

[00:33:58] Ross: oh, thank you, [00:34:00] that, that means, that means a lot.