[00:00:00] Dr Renee White: Knowledge is power, and we are all about empowering the mamas of the world. In each episode, we will unravel and interpret the latest research and evidence-based practices for pregnancy, postpartum, and motherhood. As mums and researchers ourselves, we have experienced firsthand the overwhelming complexity of information myths and those classic old wives tales.

[00:00:27] Dr Renee White: I'm Dr. Renee White, and this is The [00:00:30] Science of Motherhood. Hello and welcome to the Science of Motherhood. This week's episode is proudly supported by Our Village, here's a quick update about an amazing charity in Victoria who you may not be aware of. So Our Village actually used to be known as St. Kilda Mums, Geelong Mums and Eureka Mums. They accept donations of pre love nursery and kids items and clothing and rehome them to vulnerable [00:01:00] babies and children in our community. Our Village believes every child deserves the chance to thrive, and every parent or carer should have a village around them. Absolutely. That's why they're on a mission to help kids and protect our planet by repairing and reusing essential items like cots, prams, car seats, clothes, toys, and other childcare essentials. We all know how challenging it [00:01:30] is when you have a newborn, no matter how much money you have in the bank and how many people you have to support you. Our Village is supporting over 20,000 babies and children every year, but they need our help to reach even more. Takes a village to raise a child everyone I say it time and time again. And you can join Our Village by donating pre loved goods all your time, by volunteering in their warehouses. [00:02:00] With your help, Our Village can continue turning pre loved into re-loved, so every child thrives. If you would like to donate your time or some pre loved goods, head over to their website www.ourvillage.org.au to find out more or on their Instagram, Our Village or Facebook page. Okay. Let's dive in today's episode. [00:02:30] Hello and welcome to The Science of Motherhood. I am your host, Dr. Renee White. We are at 176 episodes guacamole. This is so, so amazing. In today's episode, we have the absolutely gorgeous Hailey Bartholomew.

[00:02:49] Dr Renee White: She is a director and award-winning filmmaker, driven by an endless curiosity about the human journey. How we can live [00:03:00] well, cultivate healthy relationships and find meaning in our everyday lives. Now, you might have seen around the traps, uh, this amazing documentary called Seen, which is essentially around.

[00:03:14] Dr Renee White: Parenting and it's got a whole bunch of experts on there, some very familiar names. Uh, people like Maggie Dent, Billy Garvey, Lael Stone, who has been on the podcast before. Selena Bartlett, Vanessa Lapointe, and [00:03:30] Nathan Wallis. It is outstanding. Please, please, please grab yourself some tickets to go see this film. It is so amazing. I just, yeah, no words. You just need to actually see it. You totally need to see it. We will put it in the show notes, but in order to get your ticket, you need to go to seenthefilm.com. [00:04:00] S-E-E-N-T-H-E-F-I-L m.com. And as Hailey kind of highlights, um, towards the end of the episode, you just jump on there, scroll down to screening events, and you pick your particular state and then you can see the events that have been, uh, kind of, you know, selected.

[00:04:17] Dr Renee White: You can book your tickets there if you find that there is no cinema around you that is showing a movie. You can host your own screening, [00:04:30] which is so cool. I really love this. I really, really love this because it is so inclusive of everyone. So you just pop onto the website, click um, book a screening, and then you get sent to like a Google Doc form, and then you can put in all your details in there and then it kind of just gets uploaded onto the website and more and more people from your area can get tickets and you can all go and watch it together. Amazing. You will hear in this chat we talk [00:05:00] to Hailey about her joint journey in motherhood. We talk about, um, her experience filming this and I guess where this initial curiosity came from.

[00:05:09] Dr Renee White: We also talk about her TED talk, which is, oh my goodness, that is an ugly cry. I just sat there at my desk, you know, when I was doing research for this interview and just ugly cried. So if you need an ugly cry. Go and click the link below in the show notes. You will not be disappointed it is a beautiful, beautiful Ted talk.

[00:05:29] Dr Renee White: [00:05:30] But yes, anything with like motherhood and gratitude, I just, you know, it gets me alright. Enough for my ranting. Here is the gorgeous Hailey Bartholomew. Hello and welcome to the podcast Hailey Bartholomew, how are you?

[00:05:45] Hailey Bartholomew: I'm really good. Thank you for having me here.

[00:05:48] Dr Renee White: Oh, my pleasure. Now we've just been talking offline that, you know, weather has been a little bit crazy in your neck of the woods, but everyone is safe and sound, which is fantastic that's good to hear. We have [00:06:00] you on the podcast to talk about your latest project, which is the documentary Seen, and for all this playing at home. In, in real time. I have not seen the film yet, I have my ticket, I have collated a group of people. We will be going to the Hobart viewing, but I wanted to kind of, go back to the beginning. I would love to hear a little bit about your background and I will have to say, Hailey, I [00:06:30] was researching you the other day and I watched your TED talk.

[00:06:34] Hailey Bartholomew: Oh.

[00:06:35] Dr Renee White: And uh, when I do research for my guests, I don't typically ugly cry. Woo. When I'm researching my guess, but I was like. Okay that was unexpected. I'm just gonna pull myself together because I have a meeting in 10 minutes and they're gonna think what is wrong with her? And I'll, I will, [00:07:00] uh, link the Ted talk too in the show notes. If anyone wants to have a little ugly cry, you, you are more than welcome to go watch Hailey's TED Talk. But is is that where it all started? The gratitude talk.

[00:07:12] Hailey Bartholomew: No, I mean That, that was just another project. I think a lot of my projects come out of personal, internal processing of some kind.

[00:07:23] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:24] Hailey Bartholomew: And this one, this one's particularly as my kids have got big, you know, I, I have adults [00:07:30] and they left home and I was kind of a little bit like, what the hell just happened? I was a bit like I didn't do what my parents did, but I can see some themes coming up here.

[00:07:41] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:41] Hailey Bartholomew: And also a little bit confused because I thought I had been doing all the things and it didn't kind of meet their needs, how I thought to it, would. So I was like, what just happened? And so I wanted to sort of investigate it really.

[00:07:59] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:59] Hailey Bartholomew: And a film is a [00:08:00] great way to do that. So I took, uh, I had a few sort of ideas and I started reaching out to some people and one of the people I reached out to was Sam from Parent TV and she's an amazing, I had previously worked on a tiny project with her and I wrote her an email and I was like, Hey, do you wanna do a, a film on parenting by any chance? And she hasn't done film she does a lot of content that's like. More educational content about if you have a toddler who keeps wetting their bed or stuff like that.

[00:08:29] Dr Renee White: [00:08:30] Mm-hmm.

[00:08:30] Hailey Bartholomew: And, um, I said I wanted to do a film on parenting. She was like, right away replied, she's like an energizer bunny. She's like, yes, let's make this. And I was like, whoa, whoa.

[00:08:45] Dr Renee White: I was just spitballing ideas here. Let's, let's, let's now.

[00:08:50] Hailey Bartholomew: Yeah, no, it, as soon as Sam got on board, it was just like we're we're off and it's been amazing. She's, yeah, she's [00:09:00] had all the contacts because of her Parent TV, and so I was literally just landed straight in the belly of where I needed to be to make this story. And, um. It's just been a, a wild, sort of like me trying to keep up with processing how I did not do what our children need, my children need. I wasn't able to be really emotionally present to my kids in a way that I wish I could. So there was a lot coming up for me as I [00:09:30] made the film and yeah, it's, it's been a, a wild ride two years now and learned a lot myself, but also I just got to meet amazing people and humans that have really enriched my life massively.

[00:09:47] Dr Renee White: Yeah, it's interesting when I have guests on the podcast or you know, I'm talking to families when I'm doing my doula work, every time we talk about parenting [00:10:00] styles, and maybe, you know, as you say, as you were creating this amazing documentary, things come up for you. And it's something I felt personally as well when I became a mum. It's kind of like, oh, all those things that I didn't deal with previously in my life. Ah, they've reared their ugly head. Excellent. What a time to arise in my, in my life. I always like to think about and I ask the question 'cause I'm so curious about it.

[00:10:28] Hailey Bartholomew: Yeah.

[00:10:28] Dr Renee White: When you become, [00:10:30] when you become a mother. Did you reflect on the imprints that you had as you were growing up? Like if you're happy to share, like what did, what did your childhood look like? What was your, like, you know, your mum in in that role? Because for me, my mum was absolutely the martyr. Like she was like, everyone comes first. I get whatever's left over and that's how I thought motherhood. Was supposed to be done and [00:11:00] that's what represented the good mother. What was it like for you?

[00:11:05] Hailey Bartholomew: Yeah, I mean, my mum gave me so many good things. Like I, you know, it's, it's, she's a, she's one kickass woman that one, you know, it not to be messed with. I did grow up really conservatively religious.

[00:11:19] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:19] Hailey Bartholomew: And that had a massive impact on me in terms of guilt and a lot of like, shame around normal teenage things and

[00:11:28] Dr Renee White: mm-hmm

[00:11:29] Hailey Bartholomew: you know, a [00:11:30] lot of stuff. And so the early years, I actually, even when I first became a parent, I was like, well, I'm not gonna smack, I'm not gonna yell, I'm not gonna do the things that I didn't like. And there's no i'm not shaming my mum with that, she's an amazing woman, but these are the things that I didn't wanna do. And then, yeah, so I set about to not do those and I, you know. There's definitely a handful of times I've yelled, but in the large majority, that is something I was able to kind of [00:12:00] control.

[00:12:00] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:01] Hailey Bartholomew: Not process, but control. There's a difference. And I think when my kids became teenagers, it's then that I couldn't really work out how to manage as well, because all the shame and stuff that I hadn't dealt with in my teenage years was sitting there waiting for me.

[00:12:21] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:12:21] Hailey Bartholomew: So I, I think the early years were less triggering I think for me. And you know, the beauty about little kids is you can completely control the [00:12:30] environment.

[00:12:30] Dr Renee White: Oh yeah.

[00:12:33] Hailey Bartholomew: And I did. Um, you know, we unschool dad, children, we traveled the world with them. Yeah. You know, we did really alternative things. Anything they wanted to learn. My, you know, my 10-year-old at the time when she was 10, she wanted to learn how to do website design that's what we did. You know, like it was very centered around them. But once, you know, they were teenagers, they wanted to go to school. It, the cracks really started [00:13:00] to appear because I couldn't keep them happy. I couldn't

[00:13:03] Dr Renee White: Right.

[00:13:03] Hailey Bartholomew: Make the world exactly what they needed it to be. And that's where, you know, I really, probably the biggest mistake is thinking that you need to keep your kids happy. That's, I kind of weirdly thought that, that's,

[00:13:17] Dr Renee White: that's fascinating. Yeah.

[00:13:19] Hailey Bartholomew: Yeah. And so once, yeah, once they were teenagers and they weren't too happy about lots of things, you know, I was like, panicky.

[00:13:26] Dr Renee White: Mm. Oh my God. There's so much I wanna like unpack there. [00:13:30] I mean, I like, uh, we don't, uh, we haven't done the unschool pathway, but we are definitely firm believers in that travel. Is an education in and of itself. Like for example, we just got over the attendance, uh, requirement last year because we, we had some opportunities arise with my husband's work and so, you know, we did cut a lot of [00:14:00] travel last year 'cause, you know, we were able to do it. And at the time I just remember feeling so guilty and panicking about it and doing that thing where I'm like, oh my God, we've gotta get like homework books and is she gonna miss out on things? And like it was doing her head in. I think, I think we did one page from the homework book, Hailey, and I was like, yes, I'm a good mother. And then for the rest of the time I was like, I'm so jet lagged. I [00:14:30] cannot even like piece a sentence together. Yeah. And it's really interesting because I felt. I felt a lot of guilt from it.

[00:14:37] Dr Renee White: But then when she came back to school, because she had traveled like through three different countries and we'd always talked about different cultures and respect and all of this type of stuff. She was in her classroom and they were talking about Chinese New Year and her teacher was talking through this book and you know, the mythology of it all and evidently another child [00:15:00] turned around and said, oh, that's just silly 'cause like, you know, dragons aren't real and you know, why would they even do that?

[00:15:07] Hailey Bartholomew: Yeah.

[00:15:08] Dr Renee White: And the teacher went to turn around and say, well actually, you know, this is about different traditions and cultures. And apparently my kid piped up and she was like, but it doesn't matter because it's what they believed in.

[00:15:20] Hailey Bartholomew: Awesome.

[00:15:20] Dr Renee White: And the teacher was like, spot on. And we kind of got pulled aside at parent teacher interviews and she told me what had happened and [00:15:30] incidentally, that then flowed onto, they have a big, uh, school assembly and they award like four children for the whole school for this specific award and typically it's the older kids who get it. But my daughter got called up and she won one of the awards for respect.

[00:15:50] Hailey Bartholomew: Aw.

[00:15:51] Dr Renee White: And it was such like, it was such a like amazing moment for me. 'cause I thought, oh my God, Renee, you felt [00:16:00] so anxious and all this guilt for like taking her out of school. And I'm just like, okay, that paid off. Like I feel good now we're okay to go. So

[00:16:10] Hailey Bartholomew: yeah, I think, I think it's interesting when you, when you do something that's a little bit counterculture

[00:16:15] Dr Renee White: mm-hmm.

[00:16:17] Hailey Bartholomew: It's hard to do it initially, but then you've just seen the benefits of, of thinking for your, your own self and your own circumstance and your own family and, and honestly, like, [00:16:30] wouldn't I, like, wouldn't it be great if more of education involved respect, you know?

[00:16:35] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:16:35] Hailey Bartholomew: And if that's what she took away from that travel, you know, that's gold. Like that's what the world needs more of.

[00:16:43] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:16:44] Hailey Bartholomew: And so I think, I think it is looking at you know, ABCs is one thing, but it's the deeper stuff that we want our kids to take with them.

[00:16:53] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:16:53] Hailey Bartholomew: And I think you've just seen that instantly.

[00:16:56] Dr Renee White: Yeah, absolutely. So for all those playing at home, just take your kids on [00:17:00] the trip. Don't worry about that attempt. You'll be right.

[00:17:04] Hailey Bartholomew: I can tell you that there was, there's a lot. Yeah, there's a lot of trips and a lot of things our kids did, which I'm still amazed at, like, you know, the things that I was brave enough to do with them and there's, you know, you can see the benefits in my kids for that. They're very confident.

[00:17:21] Dr Renee White: Have they got the travel bug now? Are they often,

[00:17:25] Hailey Bartholomew: actually, I think the irony is that they're very well traveled already, [00:17:30] so they're not very busting to go.

[00:17:32] Dr Renee White: Okay. Yep.

[00:17:34] Hailey Bartholomew: That even, even some of, you know, we had this trip to Brazil at one point and they were like, we've already been to Brazil. Can we stay with our. That's the level of travel they have experienced.

[00:17:44] Dr Renee White: I love that.

[00:17:45] Hailey Bartholomew: So they had traveled a little, but they're not as like, busting as I was.

[00:17:50] Dr Renee White: Yeah. Fair enough. All right, I wanna switch gears. I wanna talk about this documentary Seen.

[00:17:54] Hailey Bartholomew: Yes.

[00:17:55] Dr Renee White: Let's, let's encapsulate it. What, what can the [00:18:00] viewers expect from, from seeing this?

[00:18:04] Hailey Bartholomew: Ooh, I guess it depends where you're at. My approach anyway, my approach is that people really awakened to their own sort of stories and patterns that are influencing how they see their children, rather than truly being present to our children as they are. And so I think that's my real, and I, I would say Sam's hope as [00:18:30] well, but that we awaken to ourselves and what we're bringing to this relationship.

[00:18:36] Dr Renee White: Some of the experts or not, or some all like, I was looking at the list the other day and I was like, Maggie Dent, Bill Garvey, Lael Stone, Selena Barlett, Vanessa Lapointe, Nathan Wallis. I was just like, um, any, any other showstoppers that you guys like wanted to throw in there?

[00:18:54] Hailey Bartholomew: Yes.

[00:18:55] Dr Renee White: I, I'd love for you to, if, if you can walk [00:19:00] me through those experts, as you've already said. You know, you kind of fell into the belly of like all of these experts being on hand.

[00:19:08] Hailey Bartholomew: Yes.

[00:19:09] Dr Renee White: Was, was there decision making or I guess, you know, how did you land on, on those particular people? Was there something that you thought Okay, they really shined through on those?

[00:19:22] Hailey Bartholomew: Yeah.

[00:19:22] Dr Renee White: And what were the ta kind of takeaways?

[00:19:26] Hailey Bartholomew: I think, you know, I interviewed quite a lot of people, mostly in [00:19:30] search for the parents. But I also pre-interviewed each of the experts, not just for their expertise, but their personal stories as well.

[00:19:39] Dr Renee White: Mm.

[00:19:39] Hailey Bartholomew: And we did that on Zoom and just had, had lots of amazing chats with these people. And you know, my mind is literally blowing as I'm listening to them and you know, the neuroscience out from Selena and you're just like, what the heck? You know, we, our culture just has no idea what a child's brain [00:20:00] needs you. And so, you know, there's, I think with the experts, I mean, Sam had already had so much, um, to do with a lot of those people. I think Lael was new 'cause we wanted that element that Lael brings.

[00:20:15] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:16] Hailey Bartholomew: About imprints and things like that. But you know, and Billy maybe knew, but she had those, so I was able to see what they were talking about quite a bit, just from the content parent TV has and I [00:20:30] knew already they, if we could get them, it would be amazing. So, you know, those, those Selena Lael and Billy were extras that we found to really, we wanted that full circle of neuroscience, counseling, you know, child development, um, which Billy brings and where, where we wanted the breadth of expertise and, and that is what we have in those experts, you know, all different coming at the same thing from a different point of view.

[00:20:59] Dr Renee White: [00:21:00] Yeah. I'd love to know along the way, what were the, what were the standout points of view or like what were things that you were like, holy heck, I had no idea about that.

[00:21:16] Hailey Bartholomew: I think the neuroscience probably that Sel, so Selena was my first day. Selena and Nathan,

[00:21:23] Dr Renee White: yeah.

[00:21:23] Hailey Bartholomew: First day filming on the, on the film. And we did both their interviews and I, I had gone and very well [00:21:30] prepared. All my questions and then like a good interview, you would know, you know, if, if you spark any curiosity, you go down a path.

[00:21:39] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:21:39] Hailey Bartholomew: And you just keep going with that. And, and it was, I was just like, my brain was just like, what and does that mean, and

[00:21:47] Dr Renee White: yeah.

[00:21:48] Hailey Bartholomew: Are you saying?

[00:21:49] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:21:49] Hailey Bartholomew: And it was like, I could feel myself being like, oh my goodness, we have completely misunderstood what children need.

[00:21:58] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.

[00:21:58] Hailey Bartholomew: And, and [00:22:00] I also, you know, I'm, you know, it, I'm not, this isn't my first rodeo in filmmaking, but. But in terms of self-help, and I'm, I'm really interested in all, you know, I look at different, you know, you know, 365 Grateful is a good example of that. But, but you know, there's lots of things I've done in my life to, to, you know, be a as whole as I can be.

[00:22:22] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.

[00:22:23] Hailey Bartholomew: And I was just like, oh my goodness, this is presence and, and that [00:22:30] is such a common thread in all spirituality, in, in lots of things and, and I was like, children need presence. And I just, I think it was just like, I mean it seems obvious when I'm saying it now, but it was like. Do you under, do I fully understand what presence is? Not sitting there playing cars while you are thinking about how much groceries you need to do?

[00:22:53] Dr Renee White: Yes.

[00:22:54] Hailey Bartholomew: You know that the difference, we, we as a culture now spent a lot of time with our kids [00:23:00] and I certainly spent more time than the average person 'cause we unschooled, you know, but was I with them? I don't know that I was, for one, I had a camera in my hand at a time.

[00:23:10] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:23:11] Hailey Bartholomew: Two, you know, I've got a, I run a business, so I was thinking about my business. I'm with you. What do you want from me? You know? And you know, with a friend who's really with you, you can feel the difference.

[00:23:23] Dr Renee White: Yes. Yeah.

[00:23:24] Hailey Bartholomew: When they're thinking about, oh, I've gotta go do this and that. You can feel that.

[00:23:27] Dr Renee White: Yeah, absolutely. [00:23:30] That's, I guess, my kind of you know, follow on question from that is that if you, if you had your time again with your kids, based on what you've taken from these experts. I think what are kind of, you know, the top things that you might have done differently? You know, you've gotta redo If we could, I got redo back time, time.

[00:23:58] Hailey Bartholomew: Well, I do have a [00:24:00] grandson, so, um, I, I kind of get a little redo in some ways. I think the thing that I'm more focused on now and what I wish I could do for my kids, but I am doing it now in a way, is really delighting in them and not, I think you can, I certainly took my role as the parent very seriously.

[00:24:23] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.

[00:24:23] Hailey Bartholomew: And like, I'm gonna give you instruction and da da, you know, rather than just being there, [00:24:30] really present to them and Oh, that, that feels really painful for you, rather than, oh, great learning moment. You know, you know, that sort of energy I had, which was like, oh. Well, if you had, you know, rather than really being, sitting with the feelings that they're having, you know?

[00:24:47] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:24:47] Hailey Bartholomew: It's like I'm rushing to teach them something about it, you know?

[00:24:50] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:24:51] Hailey Bartholomew: I would love to sit back, Hailey back down and, and be like, whoa, slow. [00:25:00] I mean, I didn't, I also feel very compassionate to me. I didn't have that inside myself or myself either. Mm. You know, and I think that takes one some growing up yeah. And life experience and stuff. You know, I had Zali when I was 20. It's not, it's a big expectation for a 20-year-old to be able to do that for herself.

[00:25:21] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:25:21] Hailey Bartholomew: And, and for her child. So I would, if I could go back, I'd probably be like, get yourself some therapy.

[00:25:28] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:25:29] Hailey Bartholomew: And, [00:25:30] and I probably would be like, learn to be present to you because in that I could then give it to someone else.

[00:25:37] Dr Renee White: Yeah, I think that's really valuable advice. I mean, like I run a business as, as well, and I, that's one of the things I find really, really difficult to do, which is compartmentalise like business and personal life, and I just I find that if, if I don't, like for example, like school [00:26:00] holidays are just a mess. You know? The first time I did school holidays, I had a mental breakdown because, oh, I thought I'm the default parent. So, you know, if my daughter's sick, then I go pick her up and what have you. And I was just like, I, I didn't organise any, like, assistance for school holidays. Like I've got my husband's, um, family here and like, I don't know what the hell I was thinking and I [00:26:30] was like, oh, you know, life, will just go on and I can run my business. And well, and then I was like. Oh my God, this is not going to work. And I had to learn how to ask for help. I really struggled with that. Is that, is that something you ever struggled with? Like, you know, like trying to juggle it all? And did also, the other question I wanna ask is, did you think that you could do it all, all at the same time? Because I feel like that that's a big kind of social thing as well.

[00:26:58] Hailey Bartholomew: I think you're right. I think [00:27:00] it's, I've heard this quote, I remember someone saying this when I was a young parent, you can only have two pots boiling on the stove and they're, they're like, your relationship with your partner.

[00:27:11] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:27:12] Hailey Bartholomew: Your, um, parenting your business and your health. Pick two. And I was like, oh, oh, oh. No.

[00:27:20] Dr Renee White: I don't like that idea.

[00:27:21] Hailey Bartholomew: That was really I do think You know, and I remember a [00:27:30] big part when my kids were little, I made, I sometimes made choices not to work or whatever, to be more there for them.

[00:27:36] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.

[00:27:36] Hailey Bartholomew: But I felt depressed because I made those choices. Yeah. You know, because it was boring. And that's what came out of 3, 365 Grateful came out of that I was at home with little kids and I was like, this is extremely boring. And so yeah, a lot of that project was around that sort of situation. But I think, I think the other [00:28:00] thing is that, you know, we have this culture that is telling us more and more and more of everything.

[00:28:05] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:28:06] Hailey Bartholomew: And, and it is really important to kind of really understand what is important to you and what is success to you. And I love, I love, oh, Selena says this line in the film. Which is in the trailer. Which is about, you know, we, uh, she says, I've scrapped all that, it's not leaving your house as a [00:28:30] legacy it is leaving you in them. And we all know we can hear our parents in us.

[00:28:35] Dr Renee White: Oh God. Yeah.

[00:28:36] Hailey Bartholomew: So that is what you're leaving. Yeah. You know, and I think I, I can see that so clearly now at the, at this end of parenting where my kids are in their twenties and, and I'm like, oh man, they can hear me. You know? And I, I, I think as a, as a, yeah, like going back to if I could redo, I'd be like, Ooh. What are [00:29:00] we leaving in this?

[00:29:01] Dr Renee White: Yeah. I wanna talk about the creativity aspect of this because there seems to be, there seems to be this thing that keeps cropping up and I see it time and time again with the mums that I work with, with myself personally, friends, family. I don't know what it is, and I really, well, maybe there might be some studies. I see when women kind of get in the thick of [00:29:30] motherhood that they, doesn't matter kind of what their previous brains are like. I'm very sciencey, black and white, logical thinking type of thing. But I was steering towards creative projects and I find that like if my brain is super busy and I feel wired.

[00:29:50] Dr Renee White: That I just will gravitate towards something creative. Like I've, you probably can't see it, but I've made some pottery things here in the background.

[00:29:59] Hailey Bartholomew: Oh, [00:30:00] cool.

[00:30:00] Dr Renee White: I've started like drawing. Yeah. And I love, I'm like anything where I'm creating something with my hands or whatever. Do you, do you see that? Have you seen that element at all? Because it's something, I keep having conversations and I'll see things, and I actually got asked about it on a podcast the other day and I was just like, is this some element? That we're kind of missing and, and the reason I ask is because I was talking to a researcher, her name's Dr. [00:30:30] Marianne Piper, and she has, she did a PhD on this thing. Um, she called it spiraling up. And it was surrounded by the concept of like people who had gone through like a traumatic event or something like that to actually work through that. You know, you're steered towards creativity and for her, she had a very traumatic upbringing and so she began just journaling.

[00:30:53] Dr Renee White: Like that was her creativity and that's how she worked through it and I'm not saying that like motherhood or parenthood is [00:31:00] traumatic, but it's a bloody big event. Like, you know, it is like definitely a fork in the road type of thing and core memories and like it's, it's big, right? So. I guess my question to you, real roundabout question to you is, do you see that, have you seen that? Did you like this, the gratitude project, like the fact that you took photos every single day to, you know, encapsulate what you were grateful for. Do you think that that was a product of [00:31:30] motherhood? I like you've always been creative and so that's kind of like your channel.

[00:31:37] Hailey Bartholomew: Yeah, I think for me, I don't have a sciencey bone in my body, um, or a mathematical bone in my body.

[00:31:44] Dr Renee White: I don't have maths. Maths is not for me. No,

[00:31:47] Hailey Bartholomew: but I, I, I think this has always been my expression is photography and film and art and mosaics and pottery and like I come from that world, probably all my [00:32:00] siblings and all my parents, you know, that they're all artists. So I think that's probably, um, in my strength in those places. But yes, in the way the boredom helped me to see what, you know, with 365, Grateful. Yeah. It helped me to see how precious it was. Yes.

[00:32:18] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:32:19] Hailey Bartholomew: And, and, and the project was born out of boredom, which I think creativity. That's, that's what children need more boredom to be creative, not filling up their [00:32:30] stuff. And so maybe that that side of you has come out because you are more sitting still.

[00:32:38] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:32:38] Hailey Bartholomew: And that creativity gets the bloom more. I don't, I mean, I'm just speaking for myself. I'm not an expert, but I do think,

[00:32:45] Dr Renee White: but I think of that phrase and like, I don't know who said it, I say all my daughter all the time. Boredom breeds creativity. Like I always say that to her because she's like, mum, I'm bored. And I'm like, boredom breeds creativity. Work it, it does. Like what are you gonna do? Yeah. Get a notebook.

[00:32:59] Hailey Bartholomew: [00:33:00] Yeah, that's right. And definitely I saw that with my kids, uh, that if I, they never said they were bored because that was a risky move.

[00:33:11] Hailey Bartholomew: Oh, good. Well you can vacuum for me then

[00:33:14] Dr Renee White: excellent.

[00:33:17] Hailey Bartholomew: I have two. I think a large part of that is that they never were allowed to be bored.

[00:33:24] Dr Renee White: Yeah. Oh my goodness. I'm gonna wrap up, but we are gonna do our, [00:33:30] uh, rapid fire, which I do with all of our guests, and at the end, we're gonna have an opportunity to talk about where the film is gonna be played and where we can find tickets. But are you ready for the rapid fire? Yes. All right. Here we go. What, what is your top tip for mums? What have, what have you learnt along the way?

[00:33:50] Hailey Bartholomew: Learned to be very very kind and compassionate to yourself, so that you can do that for your kids.

[00:33:56] Dr Renee White: I love that. Did you have like a go-to [00:34:00] resource or did you, like, is there a book that you kind of leaned on or that someone gave you when you were becoming a mum or something that you kind of gift other mums when they're becoming a mum? Something And it could be, it can be any, it can be a book, it can be poetry, it can be a quote, it could be,

[00:34:18] Hailey Bartholomew: well, I think this film is what I wish I could have give myself. Yep. Actually. I think this is what I wish I had access to when I was becoming a mum. Okay. [00:34:30] So it is, it is a hundred percent what I wish I had. I, I read a lot of books, but none of them spoke to this, and this is, I think, the most important.

[00:34:39] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm. A bit left of center. We borrow this one from Brene Brown, who I love,

[00:34:44] Hailey Bartholomew: I love Brene Brown.

[00:34:45] Dr Renee White: I know I would die if she came on our podcast. Uh,

[00:34:50] Hailey Bartholomew: I hope, I hope you get that one day. Put it on your vision board.

[00:34:53] Dr Renee White: I have. Look, I have, I've, I've, I've got some. I I've been very bold and I have got some quite large names on this [00:35:00] podcast before, but I haven't been brave enough to get Brene on, on, on the podcast. But what do you keep on your bedside table?

[00:35:07] Hailey Bartholomew: I have a journal and I have two books at the moment, but normally there's two books of one or another. Yep. And my water bottle, that's all.

[00:35:19] Dr Renee White: Are you gonna share with the class, uh, what you like to read? What are you reading at the moment?

[00:35:22] Hailey Bartholomew: Uh, yes, I'm reading Mary Oliver's devotion.

[00:35:26] Dr Renee White: Okay.

[00:35:26] Hailey Bartholomew: Which I love, which is very like keep you in the present [00:35:30] type stuff.

[00:35:31] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:35:31] Hailey Bartholomew: And I'm also reading. Uh, a book called, it's an, um, it's not the, I actually dunno, what is the book underneath the top book? It's a, I think it's called Let Them

[00:35:45] Dr Renee White: Okay.

[00:35:45] Hailey Bartholomew: By Mel Robbins or something.

[00:35:48] Dr Renee White: Okay.

[00:35:49] Hailey Bartholomew: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:35:50] Dr Renee White: We'll look that up.

[00:35:50] Hailey Bartholomew: I haven't, I haven't finished it so I can't give it a review, but yeah,

[00:35:54] Dr Renee White: that's okay. Totally fine. Where can we see the movie? I've already let loose that it's coming [00:36:00] to Hobart, so I think that's early April um, from memory. Yeah, but where else can people see it?

[00:36:06] Hailey Bartholomew: Well, it's showing all around Australia, kudos to Sam, who's a marketing genius, there's screenings everywhere and you basically hop on the website and look under screenings. And then if there isn't a screening where you want one, you can press the button that says host a screening, and you can put one on in your cinema. And as long as you, it'll go up on the website and people can then [00:36:30] book. And as long as it gets a minimum number, it will go ahead and you'll get to see it

[00:36:34] Dr Renee White: amazing

[00:36:35] Hailey Bartholomew: with your friends and family. So yeah, it's an amazing way and, and we, I, Sam really wants this to be seen in kind of community with groups of people because we do need support to do this kind of work.

[00:36:49] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.

[00:36:50] Hailey Bartholomew: And, and having your friends and being able to talk through your own childhood stuff and having people to bounce off this stuff is really important. So, yeah. There's also [00:37:00] amazing resources on the website. Lots of them are free, but there's also a whole course. There's so many things there that, you know, I made the film, but Sam has worked very hard to create the support that people need to be able to action this into their lives.

[00:37:14] Dr Renee White: Yeah. That's, that's so true. One of my friends who's coming is actually a counselor, and I'm like. I'm gonna have to unpack a few things afterwards. So, um, yep. Kate, you're coming. Yeah.

[00:37:28] Hailey Bartholomew: And then she'll be like, [00:37:30] and I'm gonna get the resources.

[00:37:31] Dr Renee White: Yeah, exactly. She's like, uh, yeah, we're gonna do some homework before we go. Excellent. Great.

[00:37:38] Hailey Bartholomew: Excellent. Well, you're prepared. I love it.

[00:37:40] Dr Renee White: Yes. Well thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Hailey I really, really appreciate it. We are gonna have all of the details, all the links for the website where you can book, and I love the fact that if it's not in your home kind of town, then you can just go ahead and get it organised because as you said. It's all about community and no one is [00:38:00] to be missing out. So yes. It's actually a really amazing thing that you guys have done with that. Yeah. Any other last words that you wanted to, um, share with the listeners before we go?

[00:38:11] Hailey Bartholomew: Uh, I just wanted to talk briefly very, very quickly about the parents in the film who are like, yes. So they're sharing their emotional and very vulnerable stories of the mistakes they've made and the struggles that they personally have and they are so vulnerable. Like it, [00:38:30] I, you know, it's hard to talk about our failings and they have done this very bravely, and I hope it inspires other people.

[00:38:37] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:38] Hailey Bartholomew: You know, these are just ordinary, well, I consider them amazing people, but, but I think the, we haven't chosen famous people or anything like that. We've chosen people who are really vulnerable about the mistakes and the hardship they've had with parenting.

[00:38:53] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:38:53] Hailey Bartholomew: And, and the learning they've had. So, I, I. Say that because I think it's their stories that, [00:39:00] that are what's powerful about the film. And, and you might see yourself in those stories and I think, yeah, they're, they're just beautiful humans. So I hope you enjoy.

[00:39:11] Dr Renee White: I'm sure I will. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Haley.

[00:39:15] Hailey Bartholomew: Thank you for having me. That's so kind.

[00:39:18] Dr Renee White: Alright everyone. Until next week, we will see you. Bye. If you loved this episode, please hit the subscribe button and leave a review. If you know someone out [00:39:30] there who would also love to listen to this episode, please hit the share button so they can benefit from it as well. You've just listened to another episode of The Science of Motherhood proudly presented by Fill Your Cup, Australia's first doula village. Head to our website ifillyourcup.com to learn more about our birth and postpartum doula offerings where every mother we pledge to be the steady hand that guides you back to yourself.

[00:39:58] Dr Renee White: Ensuring you feel [00:40:00] nurtured, informed, and empowered so you can fully embrace the joy of motherhood with confidence. Until next time, bye.