one of the things that we talk a lot about on Dispatch is Is the importance of education and everything. Like if you look at all the pain points in our society, it almost always goes back to education at some level, um, whether that is Bitcoin related education or any other kind of education. And our first child was born, and I held her in my arms, and I looked at her, and I thought to myself, I don't want her to be raised by somebody else You like build it up in your head, right? We build up in our heads. That's bullshit. Obviously, that's not actually real because 90 percent of the time I was in school, I was not learning anything. But the truth of the matter is like, even if you send your kid to, to state school, like it's still your fault. If the kid turns out bad, like if your child, like this idea that that person doesn't have responsibility is like this crazy thing that we've just. Turned in our in our society where it's like we have excuses. That's not our fault The teachers are crap, Welcome Bitcoin homeschoolers. I am so excited to share this episode. And to understand why. Let me give just a little context here. It was exactly one year ago that tally and I had an experience that forever changed our course. And it's an event. That has opened doors. We didn't even know existed in the last year. We've been able to do more than we ever thought possible. So what happened? Well, He visited Bitcoin park and Matt Odell invited us to. Come on to Citadel dispatch to discuss homeschooling. With his permission. We are replaying Citadel dispatch, 84. Uh, Bitcoin homeschoolers. On this one-year anniversary. So Matt, thank you for being who you are. Thank you for having us as your guests. And thank you for letting us. Replay our first podcast ever for those who haven't heard this discussion yet. You're in for a treat. And the key messages have aged very well. I think just one important thing to remember. Is this as a replay of the whole show and it's a live show. The introductory comments may no longer be the best way to support. Citadel dispatch. Uh, especially thinking of Twitter, stick to Nasr these days. And certainly don't go looking for the live rooms. But with that note, let's jump in. Enjoy. Happy Bitcoin Saturday freaks. It's your boy Odell here with the first Citadel Dispatch of the new year. First of all, Happy New Year to you all. Uh, it's going to be a great year. And uh, I look forward to living through it with everybody. Citadel Dispatch is a show focused on actionable discussion on Bitcoin and freedom tech. I'm your host Odell. We do not have ads or sponsors. We purely rely on donations from y'all. So thank you to everyone who continues to support the show. You can easily support the show by going to still dispatch. com on the bottom. It says, contribute Bitcoin Ron geyser fund now. Um, so if you donate Bitcoin through on chain or lightning, you can attach a message, you can sign on with Twitter. If you want your little Twitter badge there, uh, we have a leaderboard, uh, you can try and climb the ranks of the leaderboard, which is pretty cool. And also you can support the show through podcasting 2. 0 apps, such as fountain podcasts, breeze wallet. podverse. fm, echoln. com. They work like regular podcast apps, except you load them up with Bitcoin. You load them up with sats. You decide how many sats per minute you think the show is worth. Um, and then as you listen, those sats are streamed directly to my node. It's extremely empowering, extremely cool. To be able to open my Zeus wallet, connect it to my own node and see those stats streaming in directly from this global audience. I do appreciate y'all another great way to support the show. I know it's a bear market. I know it's a recession is to simply subscribe on your favorite platform. We're on everything. 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That's just the algo messing with you. And there's nothing I can do about that. I'm, I don't do any moderation on that front. So thank you everyone who continues to join the live chat. I know recently Uh, I've been springing shows on you guys without too much notice. So it means even more when you join very little notice on a Saturday, but we have this fantastic in person studio at Bitcoin Park in Nashville, and I have some great people in town, so we're going to have this fantastic conversation on a Saturday, but before we start. Um, another way you can support the show via Podcasting 2. 0 is something called Boostergrams. Boostergrams allow you to send a certain amount of Bitcoin. You choose how much Bitcoin you want to send and you can attach a message to it. Uh, those messages are displayed in most Podcasting 2. 0 apps. They're also displayed on GeyserFund. So that GeyserFund page you can get to by going to satsperminute. com or going to salesdispatch. com and clicking. Uh, donate with Bitcoin that actually shows the leaderboard of the podcasting 2. 0 people too. So like if you go, um, if you're just streaming sats and you don't put any messages, you're actually moving up the leaderboard on guys are based on your podcasting So like our number two on the leaderboard right now. Is at user 8 2 5 6 8 8 4 on fountain and he has donated. Yeah, that's pretty crazy. He's he, he has supported the show with 846, 000 sats, almost a million sats just from streaming sats or number seven on the leaderboard is uncle thinks on fountain. He's done, it looks like over 260 times. He's, he's streamed sats to the show and almost have 500, 000 sats. So thank you freaks. For continuing support. But before we get started, let me just read some booster grams as we always do. This is a little bit different because we did take a Christmas break. So the last two shows have been, uh, from Bitcoin Park live events. Um, we have at bond with 71, 000 sats on my Bitcoin basics panel. I did at the beef initiative at Bitcoin Park saying the amount of time you have dedicated through all various mediums is incredibly appreciated. Thank you for your time, all the advice, knowledge, and positive messages throughout the years. Value for value. Orange heart. Puppy sale. Appreciate you, Bond. Thank you for the support. We have ride or die freak Eric99 with 50, 000 sats saying thanks for all you do. Smiley face. Then I'm going to go to the fireside I did. With Texas Slim, also at Bitcoin Park, we have Eric99, once again, Rider Dive Freak with stay humble stack stats, great advice. We have Ape Mithrandir, another Rider Dive Freak with uh, 2000 stats, saying Texas Slim speaks very well. And then I'm gonna go to our last actual dispatch that we've had, which was with Texas Slim, Cole Bolton, and Jason. Um, And we have that user I was talking about at user 542 0826 579 478566 saying I love steak with 100, 000 sats. And we have our Saris BTC with 55, 555 sats saying awesome rip Jason Cole and Slim. I can speak to both Jason and Cole's beef. They're both amazing. Definitely looking forward to seeing everyone again soon at another beef initiative event. Thanks Matt for your leadership here. So I know this has been a long preamble. It was a long holiday. I haven't been with you guys for a while. Uh, before we jump into the show, I just want to say, uh, you guys make it all worth it, so thank you. And then second of all, we have a crazy week here at Bitcoin Park. If you are in the Nashville area, consider going to bitcoinpark. co and seeing our lineup of events. We have so many great Bitcoiners coming into town. I've already lined up some great conversations, uh, that are going to be on dispatch. We're gonna have Dylan LeClaire back on Monday at 6:00 PM Central Time, 7:00 PM Eastern Time. So definitely consider joining us for that. I have a mini script conversation, uh, jumping into technical Bitcoin with Vivic and Rob, um, Rob of anchor watch. Uh, that's gonna be on Wednesday morning, Wednesday morning. Yeah, that's going to be on Wednesday morning. I think at 11 central time. Sorry that I'm not more prepared for you freaks. And then we have a bunch more conversations. Also, all the conversations that happen at the park, well most of them, without the Q& A component, get posted to the Bitcoin Park podcast feed so you can search Bitcoin Park in your favorite podcasting app. And catch a lot of that content if you can't join, but it's always better to come in person. Okay. I appreciate you guys for bearing with me on this long intro. We have a great conversation today, a little bit out of my wheelhouse, but something that is very important and I'm very excited about that is homeschooling and also Bitcoin games. Bitcoin games can be very helpful in an educational environment, uh, to have this conversation we have. Two people that have become very good friends of mine, uh, just from meeting them at Bitcoin Park. They drove in, um, they drove into Bitcoin Park looking to see what the Bitcoin community over here was all about and, uh, we really just hit it off a couple months ago. Um, we have Scott here. How's it going, Scott? It's going fantastic. Thank you, Scott. And Scott's here with his wonderful wife, Tali. How's it going, Tali? Really good. Happy to be here. Love it. Love it. I think this might be their first podcast. Is this your first podcast ever? Yes, it is. Yes, it is. Love it. And here to break their podcast virginity with me is ride or die freak, P. How's it going, P? It is going fantastically. I'm honored to be here, my friend. Thanks for inviting me. P was sitting in Bitcoin Park, uh, When we decided that we were going to do this dispatch and I roped him into it. So very excited to have P here. Hell yeah. Okay, so we are talking about homeschooling. We are talking about Bitcoin games. Before we get started, I just wanted to say to the freaks, I played a lot of Bitcoin games. This game that, that Scott designed is, is simply the best Bitcoin game I've ever played. But we're not going to start with that. What we're going to start with is homeschooling. And why are we going to? Why are we going to talk about homeschooling with this group? We're going to talk about homeschooling with this group because Tali and Scott have four children and they homeschooled all four children. So I think that brings, makes you as close to a homeschooling expert as you can possibly be, Tali. Um, homeschooling. Why should we care? Why do you do it? Why is it important? Well, hello everybody. I'm so happy to be here. Um, homeschooling For us, when we first started, it was almost an accidental, um, event. We weren't planning to do that. We were originally going to go traditional and, you know, send the kids to private school, go the Ivy League route, all that stuff. But as the kids got older, we realized that if we went the Structured academic route. There were a lot of restrictions on what the kids can and cannot do. It was very almost conveyor belt like, you know, the kids are moved from one stage to another stage and with very little variation allowed in what they're supposed to be doing. So an example would be when my, my oldest was three and I was thinking about putting her in preschool. I toured the local preschools. Like every single one of them and I interviewed the principals and the teachers and I just specifically remember this one school that I stopped at. The principal was English, her, you know, she sounded really intelligent and we were walking down the hall and she was pointing at all the different artwork and, and, uh, ABCs and words that they were learning. And I asked her this one question, I said, do you teach your kids to read? These are three, four, five year olds. And I will never forget her answer to me. She said, Oh, no, no, no, we don't do that. And I asked her why. And she said, well, we don't want them to be bored in kindergarten. What? And I said, so if a child is ready and willing, you would purposefully not teach that child to read. And she said, yes, because we don't want them to be bored. And that just blew my mind. It absolutely blew my mind. My oldest was three. I had already been teaching her ABCs and. So I, I didn't send her to that preschool. I did end up taking her, my oldest to a different preschool and while the other kids were learning how to spell cat with the, you know, it's the C A T and their B is for boy and D is for dog. That kind of thing. She was already reading chapter books because I taught her as she was ready to move forward. Not because I said, okay, wait, you're four and you should be able to only do this amount. And so I'm going to stop there. You let the child lead, and that's, that's been the best experience that we've been able to enjoy is let the child lead when they're ready to go forward, you move them forward, but if they have some trouble, if they're not language inclined, they're more mathematically challenged, then you just say, okay, if the addition doesn't make sense to you right now, you Explain it to them a different way or you use a different method or you, for example, for our boys, they're very active when they do school work. It's really helpful to allow them to move, which is not possible in the school system. So, for example, are our second oldest. He memorized the multiplication table while he was jumping on our sofa and it just worked for him. But that's just, he's literally just jumping up and down on the sofa. He was jumping on the table. Yes, that was how he recited and that was fine with me. I don't care how he learns it, just learn it, you know, and if he doesn't get it, then we do it again. I see P's mind running. He's like, damn, I think I can learn things that way. Yeah, exactly. What's going through my mind? He did. Whatever it was, as long as he was doing his thing. Hold it closer to your mouth. Sorry. Yeah. And also, also you don't, we, we don't agree in grading, especially when the kids are learning a new skill. We want to give them feedback by saying, okay, that didn't work. Let's try it again. But if you give them a grade, which I think a lot of schools are really quick to do, they label themselves immediately. So if you say, okay, you haven't memorized the multiplication table, I give you your test, you get an 83. Right. That's a passable grade. You move on the parts that they didn't get. That could be really key for the next phase of their education, but they just, they get moved on. But in the homeschooling environment, you get to say, okay, you didn't get 17 percent of what you were tested. Let's go back and revisit the 17%. And there's no labeling. There's no, you're a B student. You're a C student. It doesn't matter. Let's get it all completely mastered a hundred percent. And then you move on and. I feel like that gives the children freedom to make mistakes, and it's through the mistakes that we learn the fastest. But I think our school systems teach the kids to be afraid of mistakes because they have the report card that they have to bring home to their parents, you know, and they're labeled immediately. I'm good at math. I'm not good at math. I'm good at English. I'm not good. You don't need to do that, really. I don't believe that. Right. I mean, one of the things that we talk a lot about on Dispatch is Is the importance of education and everything. Like if you look at all the pain points in our society, it almost always goes back to education at some level, um, whether that is Bitcoin related education or any other kind of education. With the beef initiative, we talk about lack of, uh, food intelligence, lack of this idea of where does your food come from? What is good quality food? Like, how do you, how are you nutritious? And you go right back. It's education, education, education. Um, but meanwhile. Like the core of our society's education system is this, is this government school system, right, which is basically geared to the lowest common denominator. It's not really geared to individual students. You said this term child led learning. Mm hmm. Um, and I feel like that is really, that captures, that, that captures the value prop, this idea that Mm hmm. It is actual education that's geared to these individual, your individual children, not just this concept of children, right? Like this, like everybody has to be at least average in all kinds of subjects. And one of the books that I read really early on when the kids were little was a book by Jennifer Fox and it's called finding your child's strength. And she talked about how going forward when we compete against. The world, the whole entire world, when you're talking about job, you know, job seeker and, you know, corporations and whatever, you, you think about competing against every country under the sun, right? Who has access to the internet and you can't be average. You have to be superb. In an area, and in order for you to do that, you have to be allowed to pour your time and effort into that one area. So for example, right now, I think, generally speaking, people believe that kids have to achieve a certain level of math accomplishment, right? Whether it's algebra or pre algebra, whatever. But is that absolutely necessary? Because it's not. How many life skills actually require the knowledge of algebra and how many job skills actually require the knowledge of algebra. And yet we spent so much time making sure that every single child has that level. But if they use that same amount of time in an area that child is already strong at and naturally inclined to excel at, then how much further can they go with that same amount of time invested? So that's a, that's a really great book, I think, for your listeners to maybe check out. Um, but that was really impactful for me to not try to get my kids up to like some average level for every single subject, but to really pick an area and excel in it. So, I mean, you've never done this before. This is the first time you've homeschooled children, presumably. What was your, what was your background before you? My background, uh, I actually met my husband at business school, and the, our plan always was I was going to go into investment banking, and our plan was always have a child, you know, stay at home for a few months, get a nanny, and then I was going to go back to work. And our first child was born, and I held her in my arms, and I looked at her, and I thought to myself, I don't want her to be raised by somebody else because if I went back to investment banking, I was going to leave the house before she woke up and I was going to come home after she went to bed and I was never going to see her and she was not going to know who I am and I won't know her. So we talked about it and decided that. He was gonna just be a single single income earner and uh, and I was gonna stay home with the kids Well at the time one kid, but yeah And then we like I said before we fell into this whole homeschooling thing because I didn't know it was an option and then when I knew it was an option, I thought you had to have a teacher's degree, but Since we started into it, I realized that there are so many options under the sun, so many different combinations of ways to homeschool your child, and you can always outsource a subject that you're not good at. There's so many resources out there, there's so much support, and there's a huge community, and the number one com Not complain. Number one concern that our families have when we decide to homeschool was your child is going to be a hermit, you know, he she will not be able to to have hold a conversation with anybody. And that is the farthest thing from the truth. If you ever meet a homeschool child, they can talk to anybody because they're a hermit. In the world with their parents, they are interacting with people of all ages, of all capacity, all roles, all the time. They're not stuck in a classroom in a teacher student peer situation most of the day. They are out there interacting. And so they actually are much more comfortable. Interacting with people socially than I would say a typical student. I mean, you brought your kids to Bitcoin Park the other day and they were building seed signers. Yep. Building their own hardware wall. That's interesting. One thing that you mentioned was, um, the idea of allowing your children to focus in on the areas that they are specifically excited about or interested in. How do you find the balance between, um, encouraging them to also You know, learn things that don't come as naturally to them or that they get bored of easily. And I'm asking as a person who experienced this a lot as a child. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. So. So I do, I encourage them to pursue what they're interested in because we have the time to do it because they are not spending The time commuting on the school bus going to school and you know going from class to class So they do have more time to do that but at the same time I'm Chinese and so the whole tiger mom thing comes into play just a little bit and Discipline was a huge huge thing that I talked about with the kids and I remember specifically Brianna would be very unwilling. She, this is not a competitive person, but we put them in sports for, you know, physical fitness, things like that. And when she would be hesitant because she. wasn't sure she was going to win or something required her to practice longer, like piano or something longer than she thought she should. Then the discipline comes into play. And I would tell her it's easy for you to do things that are easy to you. It's hardest for you to do something. That you don't want to do, do, you don't want to do, but you should do, and you find challenging. And I did give them a lot of lectures on that. So really focusing in on the value of discipline, using those as opportunities to hone that skill set specifically. Yes, for the purpose of discipline, not for the purpose of, I think you should be a master musician because you're just supposed to, nothing, not, not for that reason. Yeah, absolutely. But I think that that sense of discipline is. Often lacking in students today because there's so many people who just say, I'm not good at math and therefore they just kind of toss it out the window and that I'm just not good at that. I mean, the other thing we talked about a lot on dispatch is, uh, this idea of personal responsibility and this idea that society has kind of groomed personal responsibility out of us. And I mean, you see that in the government school system, right? It's like the teachers aren't responsible for the kids because the parents are helicoptering parenting, but then the parents aren't. responsible for the kids because they're in school with the teacher. So it's like, who is actually responsible for the kid's education? Is it the person setting, you know, the standard bodies over in Washington, um, on what their test scores should be? And all of a sudden you end up in a situation where nobody's responsible for the child, right? The child is responsible for themselves. Um, and it's just a completely broken incentives. Yeah, I think it'd be really tough for a teacher to have 30 students there. I mean, I empathize with that. That would be really hard. I just can't imagine that they would have the time to say, You know, this just happened. Let's take a moment and talk about responsibility. Whereas your homeschooling, if you ask our kids, everything was a lecture. Right? It was. You get to take the garbage cans out. Why did you not do that? You know, and it could be a ten minute discussion on doing the right thing. Even if it was cold outside or whatever it is. And so you, you're shaping their framework on how they view things and you just. They're going to pick that up from somewhere, so it's probably going to be their peers or whatever social media or whatever it is that they get, they're, they're paying attention to, but when you're homeschooling, you have the opportunity to say, let me give you a viewpoint on how you approach difficulty, responsibility, fill in the blank with whatever you, you want, you get, you're the one that gets to shape. The framework that they're going to use for other decisions and when you're not there to help them. Do you think that's the biggest hurdle for maybe young parents that want to do homeschooling is, is, is that? All the discipline responsibilities on them. It's like, that's something you can't like learn in a book, right? That's like, uh, you have to actually be willing to do it. Yeah, I think it's fear. And I think there's an unrealistic expectation that you have to be the expert on every subject. Right. Like, oh, I couldn't teach biology or whatever it was. And Tali's right, you can outsource. Almost any subject. So how does that look, the outsource? Right. Kids gonna learn biology. You're not a biologist. Right, so I think most cities would have homeschooler co ops. And also, a lot of private schools would offer cottage school programs for homeschoolers. So it's almost like part time. Private school. So, for example, in Louisville, there is a place where I think a lot of, um, homeschoolers with high school kids would send their kids to, and they go to school two days a week, and they do their homework at home three days a week, and the parents don't teach at all. They monitor. Right. So that's, that's an option. And then you can also do So that's not what you do. I didn't, I did some of that. Okay. For example, I wanted the kids to learn Latin, and I was not about to go teach them Latin, because I, I don't. No, Latin. I also try to teach them science in the very beginning, but the setup and prepping for the science experiments took so much time. I just couldn't do it. So I outsourced those. Musical theater, I think is super, super important for literally everybody because it teaches them how to Get over stage fright, present themselves, uh, speak well in front of people. So I think that's really important, but you can't do that at home. So I send them to a co op to do musical theater, drama, that type of stuff. So yeah, just combination. There's so many resources out there. Is there's no reason for anybody to be afraid of it unless they just haven't been directed where to go and look for solutions. Interesting. Do you feel like, do you feel like the experience of being an educator or really adopting the role as educator rather than only as parent has changed the way That you view your own education. Oh, absolutely. I think we grew more than the kids did. I don't, I had no idea of going into it what to expect. But it, yeah, it's just, you have to go through it. You have to experience it. It's hard to. If I told you how to do a podcast versus you actually having to set it up and having to do it, um, there's something in the actual action and being responsible for that. But I have no formal podcast education. No, just trial by fire. And that's true for parenting. Really. It really is. And homeschooling, I think is exactly the same thing. And I think I had more fun than my kids when I was homeschooling because I was learning so much. I learned more trying to, Learn enough to teach them than I did going through all the branding schools and I would take a book and instead of handing it over to them, I would read and be like, this is so cool. I love this book. You know, I will order books and they will come in, you know, in the, in the boxes and I'll open like, I love these books. And I would just hug them. I get so excited, I get so excited. That's fantastic. What's been the hardest thing for you to. Do as part of this process, what's been the most challenging aspect of homeschooling your children? I think it doesn't have to do with homeschooling per se. To me, the biggest challenge was I had switched jobs a couple times and Tali took, she spent hours and hours and hours trying to find the right activities and the right resources in an area. And when you disrupt that, um, If, you know, if I could go back, I think that might be one thing that I would try to change because it, it disrupted all those things and you have to kind of like reset and restart and restart the actual, the actual teaching part. It's not, I mean, kids are really resilient, right? If you, if you messed up and you didn't teach whatever you thought you were going to teach them, like they're just really resilient and you can catch up on almost anything. Plus homeschools 365, it's not like you have this, Oh, the summer they're, they're off. Our kids didn't understand what a vacation was. Because Tali just kept on going and if we were taking time off because we wanted to go do a trip, we did it. We had that flexibility. But it wasn't like the same time every year. No. And it was, you know, it could be the middle of summer. They didn't understand that, wait, other people are not in school. So you're, you, there's no, when I grew up, that was like the best feeling ever, that, the day before summer break. Yeah, my poor kids never knew that. You know, you all run out, you all run out of school together, just like screaming. School's out, school's out. Um, I, going back to your question, Pete, about the challenges, I think, I think the, the biggest challenge was feeling 100 percent responsible for your child and how they, Hopefully children and how they turn out because I have nobody to blame except myself because I'm it. I am the parent. I'm the teacher. I'm the principal. I'm the counselor. I am everything and there were so many times when I wanted to quit. There were so many times when I just I was talking to Scott Lee and I'll be like, I, I can't do it anymore. I have, I have to send them to school because I'm going to go crazy. But it was more. It was not because the kids were difficult. It was. All the pressure on myself that I had to make sure they were emotionally healthy and they were physically healthy. So I'm trying to cook the dinner while they are doing their homework. I never got a break. There was no break for me because it was when they were investing. I was prepping for class when they were doing class. I was cooking when I was driving. I was memorizing poems with them when I was driving. I was playing. It was like there was no break. So that was the biggest challenge. And for anybody who's thinking about homeschooling out there, I would just say, take care of yourself first. That's number one. And in what way? As in. Yes, you are responsible a hundred percent, but you can outsource and, and you don't need to be perfect. I think that's the biggest message I want to tell people. You don't have to be perfect and your kids will turn out great. So don't, don't be too hard on yourself is my impression is some people think homeschoolers They just let their kids do nothing all day. They're just sitting around. My impression is the opposite. They're really intense. The kind of the tiger mom type of thing that Tali's talking about. And you put these expectations on yourself that are so hard that you're just like, well, I can fit one more activity in. I can do one more thing. And it's the self pressure that you're right. They're competing with these kids in school that are just constantly learning all the time. You like build it up in your head, right? We build up in our heads. That's bullshit. Obviously, that's not actually real because 90 percent of the time I was in school, I was not learning anything. Right. It was just like, absolutely. Yeah. I think when we first started, um, some of the season homeschooling mamas were saying, don't think you're not doing enough because you're already doing more than what. Other kids are getting in school because there's so much travel time, transition time, uh, you know, going from class to class, and then setting up, taking down, all that stuff, and we, because we don't have to do that, we were already ahead by several hours per day, and then the individual attention we give to the kids far surpasses how many hours they sit in the classroom in a corner at a desk. Yeah, it's almost, I think it's almost ironic, you know, the self pressure about. The responsibility of what you have and to me, and I can say this because it's a Bitcoin audience. It's like yourself. You're taking self custody of your education and you're, yeah, there's so much overlap there. You're, you're being responsible. You're, you're responsible for it. And um, I don't know, I have some other things on that depending where you want to go with it. Well, that's like what Tali was saying where she's like, one of the biggest hurdles is that you feel this immense personal responsibility over everything. Because there's no one else to blame. But the truth of the matter is like, even if you send your kid to, to state school, like it's still your fault. If the kid turns out bad, like if your child, like this idea that that person doesn't have responsibility is like this crazy thing that we've just. Turned in our in our society where it's like we have excuses. That's not our fault The teachers are crap, you know, this is bad all these reasons why the kid turned out bad not that you know You were not a responsible parent in the first place Yeah, right And I think really all kids want to know is that they matter to you and it's how do you demonstrate that they matter to you? You spend time with them and that's one of the things that that I've just recently started to really think about is this whole quality versus quantity of time discussion. I think there's been this really huge push for people to believe that they can have it all. They can have the career and the family and be parents and everything. The most important part is the quality time, you know, you, you take them out on a trip and you spend quality time or you take them bowling and it's quality time and I'm not saying any of that is bad. It's all very important, but there are quantity of time that just needs to be there so that you can notice the little things because live The little things like if your child has a nosebleed and you're there and you're holding the tissue of the nose and go, this is how you apply pressure, like little things like that, they add up and then they trust you and they tell you stuff. And the discussions that we have. Over the kitchen counter, I think, have been so key, a part of the homeschooling education. It's not just about the economics at all, because in the end, how well you read or how well you can write essays, it just doesn't matter as much as do they believe they matter, number one, to their parents, and also how do they interpret the world around them, right, in a healthy way. And I think a lot of young people are really missing that. They have been. Their parents at least buy into the quality time thing so they take the the family trips and they take the family photos and it's everything looks really pretty but inside they don't have the the little moments that added up give some guidance and so then they rely on their peers but it's kind of like Young people leading young people sometimes can feel like the blind leading the blind, because nobody knows more. Nobody knows more. And then they go on social media, which is even scarier. But your parents love you and they have wisdom, you know, of several decades over your current life experience. And if they're not able to share that with the kids, I think it's so easy for the kids to be swayed by what's going on in society that in most of it is not very helpful to them. Yeah. If I could. Maybe use that to highlight the negative side that you try to avoid too. So we've been talking, and I love it, focusing on the positives of homeschooling. Let's dive in. There's a negative that you avoid too. So there, in my view, it's like the, you know, you talk about separation of, of government and money. It's, in this case, it's separation of the government and school. Right. Education. And it's like indoctrination, right? So, so not only are they not teaching about how money is, And we, like, we bought games to teach money when the kids were young and that's not surprising, right? Um, so it's, you're, you're lacking that, but they're also picking up other things. There could be an agenda from the, the teacher. There can be an agenda that comes down as part of the, the curricula. There could be, there's a lot of things that you can avoid that when you, when you don't homeschool, you're, you're basically saying, I trust somebody else. I'm going to trust that they're going to guide my kids correctly. I'm going to trust that they're going to teach them. The right way of looking at history, the right way of looking at fill in the blank type of thing. And so it's the flip side of you get to do all the positive things, you also get to avoid some of the things where you're relying on trust on someone else to do it. Yeah, I mean a key aspect of, of government schooling is, is to get children To respect, you know, uh, respect authority and be a be a quote unquote functioning member of society that doesn't ask questions. That's just willing to go along with what's best for the country, so to speak, right? It's like a social score, right? Yeah, that's like that. That is one of the reasons why you see these these state school systems got built out in the first place, right? Was like, how do we take These millions of people, um, and have them all work together for the best for the state, right? Turn them into a productive economic asset. Yeah, because we talk about, we talk about incentives all the time, right? And Bitcoin and, and it's the same, same situation here is, is what are, what are the incentives? Are the incentives flawed? Are they broken? Uh, or do they make sense, right? And if you, if you talk about parents with their children, I mean, they have the strongest incentive alignment possible. Like you want your kids to be the best they can possibly be, um, and ultimately it goes all the way to the point of you're going to be old at some point and then they're going to be taking care of you, right? So you have massive skin in the game. While if you look at school systems, what are their incentives, right? Their incentives are no one acts out of line. You want everyone to be, you know, quote unquote, functionally members of society that don't cause disruptions that are just productive economic units. Yeah. Incentives. I agree. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, in the traditional school system, the goal is to basically keep people occupied because you get paid for every day that the student is in the school rather than Yeah. That's the incentive. Yeah. So, so I have. A follow up question to that, because I was actually going to go in that route, uh, before you brought it up, Scott. And so the follow up question is, as Bitcoiners, obviously, I think, in general, we self select for people that are contrarian, that go against authority, that think outside the box. We value that as a very positive trait. Um, now, if most children aren't that, And I actually saw it when I was raised like up until, uh, I mean, 2008 was a big, you know, curtain draw for me that A lot of what we were taught was bullshit and, you know, there aren't really adults in the room that know what they're talking about and, and that, you know, society is like this massive house of cards that we all pretend is not a house of cards. But up until that point, I was very indoctrinated. You know, I was very rah rah America. Um, I told my mom at one point I want to join the army. She told me essentially to go fuck myself. Um, did you know I was in the army by the way? I did not know that. Um, so anyway, my question was, so I kind of came to it myself after most of my government schooling, but my question is a child that Isn't subservient in that way, right? Isn't indoctrinated. Are there, have you no, obviously we know the positive points that can come from that. I, I, I wonder, do you notice like negative points where someone of that age is like thinking for themselves maybe a little bit too much? Like, I don't know, like, is that, do you, does that make sense? Do you want to, do you want to go first? Yeah. Why don't you go first? I can only speak to my own four kids and I'm actually really happy that. They think outside the box. They do because when they graduated high school, I sent them overseas I wanted them to get out of the homeschooling community the Christian community and I told them the world is very big and this is a very tiny part of it and you need to go see and They each came back and said we don't like what we saw because it's really sad, you know I think Brianna was sent to London during COVID and she, you know, in the UK, the drinking age is 18. Right. Right. And so these are pre freshman kids, they're mostly 18, they're so excited, right? They get to the airport, they get to the hotel. I mean, they're When you say they, was she part of a larger group? She was part of an educational group. She got there and everybody split. Everybody went to the pub. Right. To get drunk. And she called us and I said, What are you doing calling us? This is your first night there. Aren't you supposed to be hanging out with your new friends? And she goes, Everybody's gone. What? So then it was a whole semester of people throwing up in the hallway, people throwing up at the top, you know, and she She stood her ground. She was like, I don't I don't need to do that. I can go on have a good time and I don't need to do that. So she thought outside the box and I was really proud of her for doing that. And Alea went to Hawaii and her group, they didn't have access to pubs and bars because she was in a work study program, but there were a lot of kids who showed up to the program and go, thank God we left our family. It's just, Oh, I can't stand them. And I'm so happy I'm away. And then I was like, why would you say that? I tell my mom everything. And they're like, why would you tell your mom everything? And she goes, because we've always just told each other everything. And so she, they just thought so, so differently. There was such a separation of the kids from their family. And I'm, I'm guessing it's because They, they've been separated. So the kids they went on the trips with weren't all homeschooled kids? None of them were. Oh, okay. Just, just my kids. That was kind of their first exposure without us there to, to, to guide them. Talia wanted to get them exposure out and she said, let's go see the world, we'll come, we'll find a program. And we were expecting them to go and, wow, I got to see all these. Great places and meet new people and they kind of came back with what Tali was just describing was, wow, these people, they're animals. Well, it wasn't that they were animals, it's just that they just didn't There was such a separation between them and the and their family. Yeah. Because they've been, they, they go to school and they're just separate, right? Um, and, and another thing I wanted to say is there's that, is it okay if I talk about woke stuff? Yeah. Oh, okay. Openly. You can talk about whatever you want. So, my grandmother asked me once how I didn't get kicked off the radio for cursing so much. Oh, okay. This is the, the great beyond of podcasting. We can talk about whatever you want on the hinterland. Because that's, that's, that's one of the things that That, um, that really just blew my mind was this huge, huge push for the, the woke agenda, even in these overseas programs. And I just remember Brianna landing in London and the first class she was in, her professor called her out and said, what do you think about transitioning, gender transition? Well, first class and compare that to a child growing into an adult. And Brianna said, well, one is a natural process and one is an unnatural process. And that was all she said. And later on that program, she was called out on that by another student who was a gender fluid person. Right. And literally the entire program was set down and the one person in the middle telling everybody how they had microaggression. What is the verb for that? Microaggressed. I don't even know what it is. She was offended by everything. Right. Microaggression. She was personally attacked by everything. And so Brianna just felt like I can't even discuss it intelligently. I can't just, I can't talk freely about how I feel. That's interesting. It was, she completely shut down because she said, What is the point? Nobody's going to listen to me. Because there is only one right answer. And it was the same thing for my other kids in other programs. It was this huge push, like gender is fluid, it doesn't, the biological fact is not, is not a fact, and it was a work study program. Right, it's conformity over open discussion. Yes. Yes. So like when, when you and Slim were doing your talk. And somebody was pushing back saying, where's the proof? Where's the proof, right? It's a very, my impression. I mean, I'm only a couple of years trying to learn this stuff, but my impression is it's, it's show me, like, I don't trust you. Show me, verify, and no one was offended by it. It wasn't like you stood up and said, we're not going to do that here. And it was there. And what Tolly's describing is. So when you're, when you're homeschooling, you're, you're asking the kids to think, what is your opinion? I want you to do this. You're going to, you actually have to. So in their minds, that's just the way that things are. You think for yourself. And you asked me a question, I tell you, our, our daughter goes out and she gets shut down. And now the program is saying. You can't talk, right? It's, it's like the opposite of, uh, or if you, if you oppose what we tell you, then you are a bigot. That's not even opposition. It's if you ask the question, you're labeled if you have a yes, if or if you say dare you, you believe. So, I was actually very proud that, that our kids thought outside the system and thought outside the box and stood their ground, but they paid a price for it, right? So. That's interesting. Do you feel like, one of the things that I experienced, I went through the traditional education system, and I, I actually had a, a very similar relationship with my parents, or I have a very similar relationship and growing up to the one that it sounds like you have with your children, where it was, even though I spent a lot of time in the traditional education system, that kind of thinking and the, the discipline involved was something that my parents really heavily instilled in me. And I feel like one of the things that I benefited from kind of, uh, perversely or maybe, um, despite it was that it kind of hardened me to being in situations with support from my parents where I was surrounded by people who were very shut down and were sort of forced to conform. And I had the support from my parents to like, you, you have to, it's on you to kind of, to think outside the box and to really kind of confront people with that in a way where they can understand how you're trying to communicate. Anyway, this is a long winded way of asking, do you feel like Your, those experiences were ultimately positive for your children. Do you feel like they came through those sort of having that experience and having a better sense of how they can navigate those situations? The same way that maybe I did, I think we're still in it. I think she's in that in the example where we're walking through, she's still dealing with that. And I mean, she's moving on. She's, she's doing other, other things, but I mean, that's her, her first experience away from it. It really shook her. She, she really was, was shaken by that. So I don't think you, you stop learning. In the same way, if you're an adult and you have a bad relationship or something else happens, it, you're not, you're not over it instantly. And I think, so for me, I'm really proud of the way they, they went through those, but I, they're not back to where they were before they went. It, it impacted who they, who they are and how they, they think. And I wish I could say, yeah, they're all a hundred percent and they're just happy again. But it was almost like you went from I don't want to say it wasn't protected, but he went from an environment where they thought one way about the world and then they saw that the world wasn't, that's not the way the world really was. And so there's all types of emotional things that they went through. I think they're, they're just, that's just their journey. That's what we all, when we go through a different age, went through whatever we went through. And so, so I'm really proud of them, but I don't think they're, it's over. Yeah. And you said, are they better for it? I think they, all three of them would say, yes, we are better for it because we learned what we believe aside from apart from the family, because before it was always, you know, what mom and dad thought. That was what they assumed they thought they had to step away to separate themselves from us and decide what they believe. So they now have a better understanding of what they believe themselves, but the scars. Carry through and they are still trying to work through that. And then what I really like too. It's actually kind of cool in a way It's a little scary. So we have four and one of our our second oldest has almost become like a Counselor they can help coach each other Yeah So we've because we've developed how they should treat each other with respect and take responsibility all the things we were just going through they're there for each other and sometimes One might feel more comfortable opening up to one of their siblings and working through things. As a parent, I find that really hard because I want to be the one that Is there to do whatever I want to be the one that helps, but, um, we've developed a, within the family unit, a support system because they support each other too. So it's, um, I think that's, it's a side note, but it's, I found that it's, it's a result of all those other things. They now appreciate what they went through. They have a perspective on it and now they can relate to each other. There's a big corner, Jimmy Song. I think he has six children. He said after the third one, they just start raising themselves. Self perpetuating algorithms. He's like, the first three are the most difficult, and then after that Yeah, once you're in his own defense. Yeah. Um, I mean, this is a little bit tangential, I think, but, uh, I wonder if that is, and obviously me and Pete don't have any children. So we're just completely diving in here, um, and trying to learn from, from you guys. Um, I feel like maybe one of the challenge points for some people who choose to do homeschooling is that they would rather indoctrinate their kids on what they believe rather than Empowering them to be independent critical thinkers. Uh, I mean, I, I assume you guys know a lot of other families that have chose to do homeschooling. Have you seen that as a pain point for some families that like, their main goal of, or, or not their main, not even intentionally, right? It's just like, they're just trying to create mini me's rather than like new independent people. Yeah, we have seen, we have seen families like that. I think the amazing thing about children is that they pick up things that are not taught to them. Right. And they will, unless they've been locked in a closet, which I don't know anybody who does that. Home schoolers are out there all the time, interacting, interacting. So, even kids who are raised It's very, very strict and literally with one option, you know, in their beliefs because of the, the family beliefs, they are still constantly being exposed to other kids and other families because they're out there and they have the freedom to interact and, and talk and ask questions. And really question each other even. So I'm not too too worried about that unless the families just only stay within their family or they have a circle of friends who believe exactly the same thing. I don't think there's any way that the kids are not going to be exposed to other beliefs. And eventually, as a person matured, you can't help but Try to form your own identity. That's just a natural process. So, would you agree with me that if, if there were like new parents listening right now, that, that a key fundamental of, of going this route is that You are trying to empower the child to make their own decisions rather than yeah, yeah, critical thinking for sure and I probably tell my kids way too much because I am always explaining to them why I have come to a conclusion or why I have come to a decision if I make them do anything, I give them like a half an hour lecture on why I'm making them do something. To the point where they will look at me like, mom, okay, that's enough. We just tell us we need to do it. But I feel that if I explain to them my thinking process, then they know how I. At least the steps, mental steps that I took to arrive there. And they can maybe emulate that in their own mind and make their own decisions. And if you meet our kids, I don't think you got to talk to, um, the two that came the other time, but if you meet them and talk to them, you can see very quickly that they are very, very different people and very different people from us even. And we actually take pride in that, right? I don't think even if we had set out to make mini me's, I don't, I just don't think that's the way that we were built. I just don't think you could humanity or you know, like, I just don't think if you said, you know, my kid's going to be this way and that's it, good luck. I don't know. I just don't, I, there's certain things that I, I had hoped that they would do, like I had gone into service and I had hoped that at least one of them, but I don't think any of them will, and you could fill, you might. Someone might be in a different journey with their, their religious. Uh, status. It could be the academic. It could be, um, I don't wanna get too personal on some of the other things going on with the relationships and whatnot, but they're not doing what we would want them what we would do. They're not enemies. And I just, I just don't even know if we had tried to do that. I. I don't see how anybody could, could really do that. I just. That's interesting because my experience, I've seen a lot of, and not, uh, not homeschooling specific, right? Just seeing a lot of parents that want their kids to be exactly like them. Yeah. And like, this is the way you name names. I want to know who you're talking about. Um, yeah. Are they successful? Yeah. Do they do it? Who? The people you know. Like, are they, are they successfully creating mini me's? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, to a degree, I, I, I haven't seen, you know, uh, I haven't followed up with the case studies to see like how the kids have turned out, but, uh, I mean, you see it in like, you see it in state school a lot, uh, like, uh, my experience going through school or whatever, where the kids, you know, I'm like 14 years old, 15 years old, And like the opinions and thought processes and perspectives of the child are essentially just a direct rip of the parent and the kid doesn't know why he thinks that or why that's the absolute truth. They just, it just, you know, uh, drilled into them from a young age. And I just assume, I assume with homeschooling that can be to the even worse extreme just because they have full, um, right there, they have the full attention of the child. They don't have the other. Necessary other aspects and maybe even, you know, maybe you don't see the worst versions of that because those are the ones that I mean, you made the joke, which is like that stereotype of like the negative homeschooling environment where Harry Potter's locked in his cupboard, right? Where like he can't see anybody, but a less extreme version of that where they aren't really exposed to other opinions. They aren't, you know, necessarily, you know, in public and get to choose, you know, their route or where they're going. There's probably extreme cases of that. I think there has to be, but I also think, you know, to this thing you said earlier, that children are incredibly adaptable. I feel like it's like, it's almost like trying to like, you know, cup water in your hands. It's like people will find, and I think especially as they're growing up, people find access to information. Even when you try to prevent them from getting access to it. And so I feel like we're in a lot of situations, the more pressure that parents try to put on their children to be a certain way, like even if they're homeschooled, you know, the Harry Potter analogy, like they're going to, they're going to look up weird shit on their phone and they're going to be like, you know, what is this thing? How do I get access to it? And they're going to seek it out. Well, that's a whole different element, which, you know, Not a parent yet, but scares the shit out of me, which is like the balance of internet Social media like not wanting a kid that you know It's not a like I would like my kid to be fluent with computers and technology and but also, you know Social networks are predatory by design You need to talk to them And you need to talk to them and you need to talk to them and you need to talk to them to talk to them and you need to talk to them. Well then you, and then you need to trust them. And then you need to trust them. They're going to make their own mistakes and you're just, one thing is a hundred percent sure. At some point you're not going to be next to them when they have to make a decision on something. Right. So my point of view is you do your best to prepare them on how to, again, going back to the frameworks, how to think about things. And then at some point you're going to, you're going to have to take a leap of faith. And, and trust them to take action on their own and, and I mean, a kid learns to walk by falling down. They, you, you ride a bike, you fall down, there's no way you can teach them a hundred percent of the things to, you know, they're going to be exposed to whatever on social media or it's pornography or whatever it is that violence, whatever it might be, drugs, at some point they're going to have to make their own decision when you're not there. And so you're, I think the best thing you can do is you try to talk and talk and talk and prepare them, let them know you're They, you're there if they ever need you, no matter what, it's, you know, just whatever happens we're here for you. But at some point you have to, you're going to have to let go. And I just don't see how anybody could really keep that level of control that you were, you're describing. I, at least I personally don't see how, how you could do that. I think you're, there's too many ways of getting other information. And if you have more than one kid, you can't physically be with them all the time anyway. So, um, I want to add something to that also before you trust them, you talk to them first. So for example, when, when my kids were, my oldest was, uh, I don't know, like five or six or whatever. And we were with a family friend and she said, have you talked to You're a child about sex. And I said, why would I talk to her about sex? She's five or six. And she said, she knows nothing right now. So you'd be the first to plant an idea in her mind that it is sacred. It's a sacred act. It's not something you throw around. And I thought. Ew, that's weird because I don't want to talk about that, but I ultimately did. And it was, is, there's a series of books that actually talk about that subject in a very general, general way. So you're not, you know, yeah, nothing weird, like too crazy, but you start planting seeds. You just got to start planting seeds. And so if you plant seeds when they're five, six, and you continue to talk about how important it is to value your, your body and, um, and take relationships and friendships seriously, then by the time they, their hormones kick in, they're going into puberty, they already have heard that you don't even have to say it. Yeah. So when Like I said, when my friend mentioned that to me, I was like, that is the weirdest wackiest, why would I want to go there? But I'm really glad that I did. And I did it with my first three. And then the fourth one, when he was old enough, I said, okay, let's sit down. He goes, You don't need to tell me anything. I already know everything. And I said What? And he just recited, he recited the stuff to me. I'm like, okay, I guess you got it. Never mind. So, so Matt, did we answer your question though? I don't know if we did. I think you did. I have a question. You mentioned something interesting, which is that you had hoped that one of your children would go into the service. And I think a lot of people think, we've been talking about how in the traditional education system, it is, you know, really the system that's designed to kind of, um, You know, turn people into productive units of society. And I think a lot of people would view military service in kind of a similar way. Potentially even more than more so. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm curious where that comes from and sort of how, how you think about military service versus traditional education and why one is preferable or ideal, you know, ideal versus another. And do you still believe that? Do you, do you still? I wish that at least one of them went into the service. They're, at their ages around now, it's, it's kind of done. I don't, they're not going to, they're not going to go. Um, so to me, the, I didn't know what I really wanted to do when I was 18. And for me, the, the service was an opportunity where, where it kind of kept you, it had some boundaries. And the military, I think, is really good about putting people through experiences together. You go, whether it's boot camp or whatever, you, you go through tough times together, and then you, you bond, and you learn about things, and you, you, there's just something different about that experience, and if you don't know what you want to do, it can help with structure. And I, so for me personally, I, I grew personally because of that. Because I, I was kind of otherwise lost. I didn't have a goal to be just a doctor or a lawyer or some people know they want to be a pilot, whatever. I didn't have that. So for me, it does that. And, and honestly, I, the, I didn't understand. I went through the public school system growing up and we would do the Pledge Allegiance and we learned history and whatever it was. And I, I just, you know, I thought the whole world was the way it was here, and I didn't fully understand that the freedoms we have, we have a lot of things wrong with the government, it's definitely too big, there's a lot of things we can go down with that. On the other hand, we are really blessed with a lot of things here. We do have the First Amendment, we have the Second Amendment, we can talk about all the craziness that's going on, but no society has ever been perfect, and I, and I strongly believe that, We have a really good thing here, and someone has to, someone has to do the right thing. It's not, it's not, it's not free. And the idea of what service is now, I look at like Congress and quote unquote service, and you got, you know, inside trader Pelosi and whatever else is going on there. And I'm like, these people are just, they're just, they're like a different, they're their little political class. That was not the intent. If you go back to, we're supposed to have limited government, we're supposed to have our freedoms. Like, those things to me are still really valuable, and I think, yeah, we have a lot of flaws and a lot of bad things going on right now, but the idea of service and serving that ideal in the Constitution, I still think, yeah, I, I, I do strong, I have a lot of strong feelings with that, and I get very upset when I see people just flaunting it and tearing it down and trying to rewrite history. I'm like, you, you're an idiot. You have no idea what you're talking about. If you actually experienced what you think you're describing, you would hate it. And um, so I guess, um, I, I think military services is not for everyone, but I do think that most of the people in the service, their hearts are in the right place. They're serving for the right reasons. Um, you have, you have soldiers on food stamps, right? And you compare that to the people getting rich and quote unquote serving in political office. So, um, so I still, I still feel very strongly about the, the, the military, but as far as our kids, I have to respect the fact that that's not, that's not their thing. They don't want to, there is a dichotomy there, right? Like homeschooling versus modern day military service, I would say. I mean, I, I, when you, when, when you're, when you were in the military, you signed an oath. You swore an oath to the constitution to uphold the constitution. You didn't swear an oath to corrupt politicians, but my yes, but in practice, this is Scott's first time on a podcast, so we need to keep reminding him to put the mic up. Um, but in practice, in, in practice there, you're, you're basically a pawn for the corrupt political class. Right. Right. Right. And then, and that was one of the things I had a hard time. Reading like the first, like when I, uh, the Bitcoin standard, when you talk about how you can have endless wars because of the money system, it, I had to, it took me a while to really think on, on that because I'm like, Oh, wait a minute. So those in service, are they, are they a pawn type? Right. I wasn't using those words, but that is a, that is a struggle. And so, um, so if I'm, if I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying. You should, if you want these freedoms, don't be a pawn, therefore don't go into service. Is that kind of what your, your logic is? No, I mean, it's just a weird, it's uh, I agree with you that most people that go into military service do it for the quote unquote right reasons or their heart is in the right place. Um, to uphold the constitution, to uphold quote unquote American values, the things that we care about. Um, I just, and, and we want as many people in our nation's military, and I would even go as far as say police force and whatnot, that actually believe in those things and don't just blindly respect authority. Correct. Right? Um, but in practice, those people are usually crushed. And the result is the remainder are the ones that will just blindly follow authority. And I'm trying to be delicate here because I know it's cliche, but thank you for your service. I like respect and grateful for everyone that has served. Um, but those people tend to be crushed and then the remainder are the ones that blindly respect authority. And that authority is, is at this point in our nation's development is incredibly corrupt, like at its core. Um, and we saw that to the extreme during the response to COVID where. Anyone who refused to get the vaccine was kicked out of our military and was kicked out of police forces. So literally the only people you have left over is the subservient class. The people that are just willing to take it no matter what. Whatever you say, I'll do it. Right? And willing to turn a blind eye when the person that was serving next to them is You know, is, is made destitute and, and put out on the street essentially, right? And not able to support their family because they've lost, they've lost their career. Yeah, I found that very disturbing, what happened with all that, with the I mean, that's the extreme, right? But we were already trending that way. And then it was, you know, like Parker, Parker Lewis, but gradually then suddenly, right? Like there was a gradual Push in that direction. And then we had like the sudden band aid rip of the COVID response. Um, and it should be interesting to see how that all plays out. But I mean, we had a close friend who was working with us at Bitcoin Magazine, me and P. And he was in the military and he had actually retired a couple months before he had done his, his, his, he had done his service and he retired according to their, their scheme, right? And he was getting his, he was, he was on track to get his military pension. And they said as a retired person. That he needed to comply with the vaccine mandate, otherwise he wouldn't get his pension. Um, so we saw that first hand and him battling with that. Yeah. Um, and he was ultimately, he's like, I'm going to fight this to the end. Out of principle, you know, I'm not going to just fucking do this thing. He's like, even if I wanted to take the vaccine, like, I'm not complying with this shit. Um, but yeah, I mean, it's just crazy to witness. Yeah, I agree. There's It is the, but I mean, if we, if we get the money, if we can fix the money, then we can, there's a lot of things including fix the incentives. It's broken incentives everywhere, right? Okay. Um, this has been a great conversation. We're a little bit over an hour in, uh, let's, uh, shall we talk about this? Awesome. This awesome board game you created. And I, I, once again, I, I said this to, I said this at the beginning of the episode, but I said this to Scott and Tali when we played the game. I don't say this lightly when I say it's the best Bitcoin game I've ever played. Uh, I played many Bitcoin games. A lot of people want feedback. Uh, When you asked, uh, for feedback and I met you for the first time, like literally no idea who you were, uh, you're standing in Bitcoin Park and you're like, I have this Bitcoin game in the back of my head. I was like, well, it seems like a nice guy, but the game definitely sucks. I was like, but I'll play with him. I like, I like games. I like competition. Like I'll play the game. And, uh, it wasn't just like a shitty game with like Bitcoin bolted on. It's a good game. Like it's just a good game regardless of, of Bitcoin. Um, and, and yeah, so at that point, after we recorded that, after we recorded, after we played that game, which by the way, I won and beat Scott, I was wondering if that was going to come up and I even caught Scott not following his own rules, I called him out at one point because I was keeping, don't trust verify freaks, that's right, um, very proud. I was like, we have to do a dispatch on this game. And homeschooling because you guys are just massive amount of knowledge in your heads. Uh, I don't want to keep it to myself, but anyway, let's talk about this game. It's called huddle up. Uh, people can find it at freemarketkids. com. Fantastic name. Um, give us, let's start us off, Scott, give us the show. So, um, it's, um, I appreciate those, uh, those words. And I, it, it, I was, uh, just blown away that you would actually give the time to actually have a. Stranger walk up to you and ask a favor. Um, I was just kind of like, I was just kind of wowing the whole way home. Tommy's like, you know, why is this big deal? I'm like, don't you understand? Like, this is so thanks for thanks for that. The, this, this combines just a few passions for me. So I've always liked. Games. There's a lot of benefits to them. The fellowship, the in person, you're away from the screen time. There's a lot of, there are a lot of things, but since we're talking about education, there's, there's also a lot of educational benefit. So when the kids were young, for example, we, we bought the Kiyosaki. Cashflow for kids. And you're always looking for other ways to make the education, the education wasn't always just about the ABCs and math. So Tali's like, I'm going to put them into, I can't remember all the different activities. And then, so this, the games was just another way of teaching. When I met in business school, so we, we've kind of. We're inclined towards the financial and economic side anyways, we're like, we better, how can two MBAs not teach their kids about things? And the, the games are kind of like the overlap of that. It was, it was, I want my kids to understand. what this is. I have a lot of other ideas of things I want to teach them and they are not always receptive. Our kids are not always receptive. They think it's another lecture. You know, dad's excited about something, mom's on a tangent on whatever, whatever it is and and this is a way where I, we could, I could selfishly do something with my family. My, my parents included, my brother included. They're, they don't understand why Tali and I are passionate about. About Bitcoin, but they were willing to for two years help me play test this game and work things out. That's so cool. So, okay, so I don't have to strong arm them into doing this. I have to. And it was actually good. My brother and I, we go to a game conference every, every year. We just love it. And so we were play testing. He's like, well, what's this wallet thing? And we, we need to be able to do this. And I go, no, you can't do that because you can't do that in Bitcoin. And he's like, well, I don't really care. It's a game. And so I, it forced me to go back and do more research. And so it forced me to learn better what this really was. And of course, the more I learned. The more hardened I became about the opportunity and the more excited I got about it, but long story short, this is the way this is what I would like to have to selfishly to be able to get with my own family. And then Holly was like, well, kind of put your money where your mouth is with these with these ideas. We're always telling the kids they should start a business. There's a lot of opportunities. You don't have to look at the traditional schooling, like universities, and that was that's where it started. It was just a combination. I was passionate about the subject. And to this day, the kids are well, one of one of our, our daughters is. Is actually excited about investing in, in Bitcoin. But someday what I'm hoping is they, they come back, maybe it's a few years or whatever it is, and they're going to say, okay, now I'm ready. And now I have this all packaged up. I have the game and there were so many elements I couldn't put into it. I said, I'll just put those into a book on the side and that's what the, um, I'm building the, um, basically I'm learning through games, 21 Bitcoin lessons that you could go with the game. And so selfishly, this is what I wanted. And now, um, now I'm just really excited. Like today, we got an opportunity to, to, to introduce it to some new folks here at Bitcoin Park. And it's actually really exciting to share with other Bitcoiners and not my family who doesn't understand Bitcoin. And then for them to say, Hey, I can give this to my family or, Hey, I can share this with somebody else. And it's a way. So if imagine this was in our schools or if this was in our libraries, or this was, if you had a Bitcoin meetup on a regular basis, that was just game night. There's a lot of opportunity where we can help get these ideas out to others without coming across as read this book or listen to this podcast or whatever it is. Um, but selfishly, I just like games and I really enjoyed designing them. And I really liked the education side and that's kind of the, the Genesis for, uh, for the game itself. And the reason it took two years was one, I, I was still learning Bitcoin and two, it was really hard to figure out something that was simple enough to play, but was good enough that it brought up an idea to. I'd actually want to talk about. So my brother asked me, well, why are the, why did the number of tokens go down by half every once in a while? Okay. Well, that's a whole subject. Why what's this wallet? Why is a wallet have a, why is there a cold wallet and a hot wallet? Like who cares? Like that kind of thing. And so there's so many ways to have. Conversations that are just a starting point. Yeah. They're like the seeds that you can plant. So, um, really excited to, to share with others and have other people join in games, I think, especially after COVID being able to do things in person, there's just something different. And that's why. You know, Matt, what you and Rod are building here at the Bitcoin part. This is why we're willing to drive here is because like we get to connect. How long is the drive? Three hours. Three hours. And like, I can't describe to you how much, like how valuable that is personally to be able to come and then be with people that you, that You can understand, understand the way they're speaking. You may not have the same background, but there's a connection there. And, um, to me, games are, games are a way of, of connecting with people. You don't have to feel like you have to have a conversation going. You can just sit there and make small talk. If you want to geek out like a homeschooling dad and build a lecture in it, you can go for it, or you can just. Just play, we're just going to play and so that's, um, that's where it started and now I'm kind of getting more excited about sharing it as I see people react to it. So interesting, you know, really creating the process of creating a game. And as you said, building out the effective game mechanics and really play testing it and being able to distill it down into the essential components. While also creating a really profound and correct educational opportunity. That seems so challenging to me and I haven't played it yet, but I'm really, really excited to. And I think also, as you said, like having a physical game that. Has mechanics that are exciting enough so that someone who doesn't understand Bitcoin still can enjoy the game. I just think that's such a, uh, an effective way of, you know, in a positive sense, like Trojan horsing what Bitcoin is. Oh, absolutely. It did. I'll tell you just, uh, on that. So for example, one of the biggest arguments I got into with my brother doing this was, I'm like, you can't move someone's Bitcoin if they don't have the keys. That's it. And his, his point was, well, if you start out before the halving, You're going to get a lot of the Bitcoin. So whoever starts out, that's it. The game's over. There's no, you have to be able to move stuff. And that was probably one of the things that we went back and forth the longest on, and then it, what it ended with for those that haven't. Played obviously the the audience built that in that you can try to have a transaction to move something and someone can fight If your bitcoin is on the hot side of the your your card it's vulnerable you roll the die and you got a chance that someone did a phishing scam or they they they did a sim swap or some other They did something else to you, but there's also a risk for the person who's attacking you that you successfully defended and you get to, to, to move it on. So it turned out to be a really great learning point, but there was a lot of back and forth of like, just, well, it's a game. It has to be playable. So how do you work in there? But I'm like, yeah, but I can't compromise on, I can't compromise on how it works. And so it's not perfect. There's some things in there that are not a hundred percent. Exactly right in terms of terminology, but I just try to squeeze everything I could in there to to do it that that that was one of the ones that I think now is a good thing as I watch people play because there's a lot of conversation about protecting your your Bitcoin and there's a chance if you are behind being a game you can actually catch up so you can still Yeah, I can play with my brother and I don't have to worry about discussing keys with him. I can just play the game. We're good. So I think one of the things that the game helped me personally is seeing the blockchain visually and seeing how it's constructed, even though it's just a model to help me understand the abstract idea of the blockchain, because I'm not techie. And when people talk blockchain, It just goes over my head. I don't know why, why a string of numbers should mean anything at all until he put out this game and started explaining things to me. I'm like, Oh, that's what you're talking about. It's just sometimes you just need to touch something, right? I'm a big believer in that. That's also like when Scott was like trying to explain the rules. It's like, can we just play the, can we just play the game? Yeah, I like learning by fire. That's going to influence how we do game nights, by the way, we're not going to show them videos or anything. We're just going to go, okay, we're just going to jump right in and start doing stuff. Yeah, we're going to do, we're going to do game nights at Bitcoin Park with Scott and Tali, uh, so people can play the game firsthand, uh, be a lot of fun. I mean, Scott was mentioning that right before this podcast, uh, we had a bunch of people at Bitcoin Park playing the game and I, Scott, like kind of looked at me. He's like, do we have enough time for the podcast? I was like, Scott, go get the game. Let's play the game. Like we have to play it. I I, you tried to get me to play and I was like, no, no. I went around and immediately I was like, I fucked up. I should, I should be playing this game. It looks so much fun. So instead we roped him into the podcast, Oh yeah. No, but I'd appreciate that you're, I I mean it's, it was that, that experience of playing the first time here was, it was great. 'cause you guys were the first Bitcoiners that I had to test it with. That's interesting. Mm-Hmm. And I wasn't sure how it was gonna fly. Like, you know, you had a good game there. But you didn't know if it was Actually I didn't, yeah, I didn't know. Held up with big Bitcoin, but I already. It already kind of committed to it along the way to, to make it, but, um, but I mean, it took you, you guys picked up the concepts much faster, I think, than people who are not used to the terminology and other things that are in the, in the game. Um, and so I was, yeah, even though you beat me, which I was not happy about, but I, but I was like, wow, they, they got it. Like they, and I was like, that actually was really, um, fulfilling to. To do that. I, I just, it was really, it was really kind of a cool moment for me personally to see. Okay, Bitcoiners, Bitcoiners are okay with it. Okay, all right. That's what, that was, that was like the test. If, if Bitcoin, because if you, if you looked at it and said, huh, good luck. Right. I mean, and one of the Bitcoiners that we had playing with us, uh, this great dude, Ben, I was hoping he was going to join us for this conversation, but Schedules and we moved it up. He actually, he had bought the game from you and then he brought it back for Christmas and was playing it with his family who were not Bitcoiners. It's on the opposite side. He said it went really well. Um, and they started to actually understand it and it makes sense because if you go back to Why you created this game in the first place is you were a bit of the crazy Bitcoiner in the family, right? And you're like, how can I show that? I'm not at least completely crazy. So I'm gonna go build this game So you guys will learn I would love to talk to him about how the feedback from yeah, we'll talk He'll be here this week. So you'll you'll be able to talk to him about it. He was very excited He brought it up. Not me. Oh wonderful. Very excited. Yeah, but anyway, so Where do we go with this? So it's a board game I love board games, um, up to six players can play, uh, and a lot of surface level concepts are, are, are, it's, it's, there's, there's an educational element to it, um, it's, but it's just also just a fun competitive game that works, um, so, so what are the educational elements, uh, there's a difficulty adjustment in it, which is, which is key, halving is obviously massive, block reward, block subsidy, Um, hot and cold wallets, every player has a hot and cold wallet and if your bitcoins in your hot wallet, it can be taken from you because you, you can choose to invest in mining, right? And you can also invest, yes, you can, you can exchange your, your Bitcoin and invest in additional rigs that you get additional nonce cards or additional chances to mine. I wanted something to reward people for making that investment. Um, you also have the halving event. I think we mentioned that before. The halving really, uh, it's visceral. It captures the FOMO of the halving very well. As you're playing, you're like, Oh my God, there's not enough Bitcoin to go around. Like, I need this Bitcoin now. That's so funny. I wonder how many people are going to play this game. And then it's going to fundamentally change their strategy around how they acquire Bitcoin in the real world. No, if it'll be that big, I, um, I, I feel like I, it was to, to your point though, what was interesting is that so we've played this with like homeschooling kids that come over and there's always a different dynamic and how people play it. And when this first game with, with Bitcoiners. Like it took like one or two hands and then they clicked in. And then it was like, I started to hear comments, like there's a having coming up, so maybe I should do this instead. And they're like, well, maybe, but so and so is ahead right now. Here's a difficulty adjustment. Maybe I should go to cold storage. There was all these. Like thought processes that people were vocalizing and I just loved it. I was like, because there's, there's elements of chance in there, but you also can make decisions on the collusion and all that stuff, right? So it introduces, I think, Matt, to your question that there's, um, when I wrote the book, there were 12 different chapters that are just kind of fundamental Bitcoin, things like the having or the difficult adjustment. I have one chapter just on bad actors, which is the die, and so I broke that out, and then the remaining nine chapters are on each of the, there's one type of card in the game that you need to make a transaction called a hash card, and that's what links things on the time chain. So every, every block you, you, you put down has to be linked to the one before it. And the Those cards all have a unique expression on them. There's no, no two are the same, no two hashes are the same. And that was my personal compromise for all the other things that I wish I could have brought in and to talk about, but couldn't. So I just have a lot of vocabulary on, on there. And so the last nine chapters basically take the theme of those. So these are themes about frameworks. These are themes about, you know, other, other things. And you can use it more like a, as a reference. If you're new to Bitcoin, all I wanted to do is introduce the, the terminology and the links to information. If you're curious about what it's so snore singers, how to say it? Snore signatures. How do you say it? Snore. Schor. Snore. I read that, I must've read that thing multiple times on what those are. I still couldn't explain. I'm like, okay, well I'm gonna get it down. A couple things on this, and if anybody's curious about it, I'm gonna send 'em to the links that I found. The second half of the, of the, of the book was just depending on where your curiosity goes. You could, I could find the resources that I had found over the last couple of years to send people. So the first, the first half of it is purely kind of what we've been talking about, where the mechanics of the game teach you something. And then the second half is really an introduction to kind of Bitcoin 101 terminology. Yeah, I like the concept in general of, uh, you have a game and then you have a book attached to it. So it's like really like an educational first mindset. With games. Exactly. Right. This is the, this is what I would have wanted, you know, if not knowing Bitcoin, if someone had given me a game and I wanted to play with my kids and understand and we, we like Talia and I wanted to teach about it, this would be the, what I would want as a resource to go and find the things to, to talk about. Um, and so it, and sort of like homeschooling, homeschooling, when you go back and revisit things you're teaching your kids, you find that you learn things you didn't. You didn't recall from school history or whatever by going back and trying to write put those things in writing I found all the different things that I thought I knew but didn't really know and I had to do extra homework So I actually I actually selfishly learned more by making it then Even if no one else ever picks it up, I had to go through it. It's something about writing it down forces you to, you have to, you have to actually think through what you're, you're, you're writing. So, um, so I learned a lot, uh, you know, from that, but my goal is now to share that with, that you can just say, I have a friend, the family or, uh, whoever it is, it could be a school library, whatever. Here's the book that goes with the game. It's a pair and. And now just play and then if you, you're interested in, as you become curious about things, this, this is a place that will send you off to start your, your rabbit hole journey. I immediately imagine like going to Thanksgiving with my family and just locking them all in a room and being like, you can't come out until you understand this, this, and this. And then just yelling through the door, what is a hot wallet? I'm curious what your experience of the process has been of this game being designed. Like, yeah. So real quick, uh, we have a Bitcoin. Is the username in, uh, the chat. If you go to freemarketkids. com, you can buy the game. Uh, you can pay with credit card or Bitcoin. Bitcoin is accepted if you go through the prompts. Uh, you'll, you'll be, you'll be given an option between paying with credit card or paying with Bitcoin. They asked why they couldn't pay with Bitcoin. And the game, by the way, is Huddle Up. There's a couple different games that are on the website. It's Huddle Up. Yeah. So I'm, I'm thinking about adding something. I'm new to building websites, but we'll, to put something on there on the front. To set to space, say, Hey, you can buy it with Bitcoin. Here's how you do it on there. And then the second thing to call out is that the book it's written. I'm doing the editing phase now and the formatting so that I can't ship that out yet. Probably a month out, maybe six weeks out from being able to To do that, the games I have in stock right now. Getting back to your question, Pete. Yes. Scott started talking to me about Bitcoin a few years ago. And when he first mentioned it to me, I put up my hand. I said, talk to the hand because I don't have time. I don't know what it is. I don't understand it. I've got other things I'm trying to finish. You know, homeschooling the kids last few years of high school. I'm like, I can't talk about this right now. And then he started creating this prototype for the game. And the, and I didn't want to play it. I really, I was, it just, it was so, the concept was so foreign. I can't wrap, I couldn't wrap my head around the thought that a string of numbers and letters can. be money. And it was through many, um, prototypes that his brother was so patiently working on with him that I eventually started to understand to the point where I wanted to listen to a book about it. So the book that I listened to, uh, was called hard money. You can't F with. And by the end of the book, I was sold. And then his game took on a whole new meaning. And I was really trying to understand it, but if he had not created that game, I would still be having a really hard time trying to grasp the concept of the code and things like that. I'm just not a techie. I'm not. Yeah, so I have found that to be so helpful because everybody that I talk to who isn't a BitCorner, who knows about Bitcoin, their first response to me is, Oh, I need to learn more about Bitcoin, but in their mind, it requires hours and hours of listening to podcasts and reading books and reading articles and endless, you know, like a long list of research that they have to do, like, but you can understand the fundamentals. If you play this one board game, it takes. 30 minutes, and then the major part of Bitcoin will be explained, or at least you have enough knowledge to go forward. You have a foundation, a framework for thinking about it, at least. Right. And then you have the book attached to it if you want to go further, further down the rabbit hole. Exactly. Yeah, that was, that's a good question though, because. She doesn't always want to play the games, and I want to play games a lot, and there's some tension there, um, but it's, it's been, it's been kind of a journey, and now I've gotten her to the point where she's okay to play a game every once in a while, so we're getting, we're getting better, it's like a game therapy. I mean, this game is literally a love child, really. I mean, he, we have poor soul. Much time and effort into it and I'll give you an example one time Our youngest was a home that the three were overseas and Scott was trying to work out some Just nuances in the instructions just the instructions and they had a debate for an hour That was how seriously our youngest took the instructions. They debated over the wording over the, I think, the first two sentences. And at the very end of it, both of them were mad, and they didn't play the game. You had asked before, like, your kids, when they could stand up and think for themselves. This was at the time, I think he was, was he 15? 14? I don't know. But we argued over it. And then I'm like, listen, he's like, why is this? And I go, well, you know, and then I found a YouTube video that showed visually the building of a blockchain. I go, this, you watch this video. You have to watch this video. I don't want to watch this video. It was, it was, it was, it was so maddening as a parent. To, to, to go through that, but if you, you know, you fast forward, he's a more technical one in the family. He actually is the one when you, on the website, there's a, an explainer video. I know people want to learn by, by doing the, the one that I had the argument with is the one that did the animation on the ultimately on the how to play video. So we've, we've come forward. Yeah, it's a labor of love. But, but I'm ha I am grateful that now I can have those conversations with the kids that without the game I wouldn't have been able to, so. Well, you can see it in the final product. There was a lot of love that went into it, clearly. And a lot of care and thought. Um, I mean, Scott asked me for my feedback, but he also told me After he asked me for his feedback that he had already made 500 versions of the game. So, um, I'm glad you nailed it. There could be an addition too. I told Scott that for his future games, I expect to be brought into the feedback process before the game is ready. I will say publicly, I commit to bringing you things ahead of time. No, but yeah, you, uh, yeah, I can't speak highly enough of this game and, uh, The freaks, the audience should, you guys should consider going out and buying it. You can pay with Bitcoin, like I said, or credit card free market, kids. com. Um, I joke about it being printed, but there will be, you know, follow on versions of the game, different versions and stuff. So, Scott is happy to, he would love feedback, right? I love feedback. He took the feedback very well, that I gave him. That's actually in the book, if I can interrupt you real quick. I actually write saying, hey listen, if something's not right in this book, I own it, but this is sort of like open source learning. Right. I, my ask is tell me where I got it wrong. Right. There'll be V2s of the book and digital versions. And yeah, cause I want to get better and I want to give up. Good information. So I really, really do welcome advice and feedback. And, uh, if you go to Bitcoinpark. co and join our meetup group, you will get notified when we do the game nights. There's going to be multiple game nights at Bitcoin Park that I'm looking forward to. What else? P is going to play. P is going to play, I will. We're going to lock him in a room and tell him he can't have dinner until he plays. Based on his own strategy with his family that he disclosed. I tell you, watch out when you play against Matt. I'm excited. And I can't believe he beat you at your own game, which is a measure in my mind. Never got, I've never gotten to play a founder at his own game too. That was, yeah, I was, I was actually, when we, Thought about doing the podcast. I was like, how long before this comes up? And it was very proud of it. I'm more proud of the fact that I caught, so like the way it works is there's a difficulty adjustment and, um, and you draw cards and like the number on your cards, whether or not you collect Bitcoin or not is based on, um, If, if the numbers add up to under the difficulty adjustment, it's a really cool mechanism. And, uh, Scott put his cards on the table and then went to grab some Bitcoin. And I was like, I was like, Scott, that, that doesn't add up to below the, he literally tried to grab some Bitcoin from the board. Tried to pull one over on you. I caught him. I caught him, so don't trust Verify. Don't trust Verify. That is better than beating him. That is so much better. That I, that I was actually, there was proof in the pudding that I was paying attention, I was completely competitive, and I was not gonna let him get away with it. I also, like, I just think it's such a ringing endorsement. I mean, people come up to you and want to talk to you about Bitcoin and the products they're making all the time. So for this to be the game that you're like, this is the best one, I mean, you must have played. It's the best one so far. Oh. It's a challenge to the audience and to Scott to build even better ones. Gotta build more. You should make a shitcoin version. That's like, this is why everything's broken. There, there, you, you joke about that, but I actually had some ideas, so you and I should talk. I mean, I think it could, I think it could be interesting. Like, here's why you never want to fuck with any of this nonsense. FTX, the game. No, no, I mean, like, I don't know, I think, or like, Just everyone gets rug pulled, there's no winning the game. No, that's what I mean. Or like, like a modification that you could buy, where like, it like, adds on to the existing game, and then the only answer is like, SBF steals, steals everything. And then he goes losing a mansion in a couple more days. Yeah. Um, this has been, this has been fantastic. I appreciate, I appreciate you all. And, um, this has been a really great conversation. Uh, before, before we wrap up here, I'd like to finish with final thoughts. Um, final thoughts, Scott, hit us. Uh, the thing that's on my mind is just, is just, I go back to the, the gratitude. I, it's really difficult to put into words. Like how much I think you, what you guys are building here, like, I don't, I really, I do, I actually struggle with trying to, to express that. And, um, when I tell others saying, you know, or I told you about the Lexington meetup and other things, I'm like, you guys have to get to Bitcoin Park. You have to get there. And I'm trying to get other friends that live in faraway places to join as well. Um, I'm just, I just, it's, it's really amazing and if anybody hasn't been like, it's until you experience it, I don't think you get it. And for you guys, I think, um, you, you have, you have access to a lot of other people who already get it when you're, when you're, you know, in your, on your own, in the, on a, with your family or your friends, you're like on an, on an island. And there's just something about being able to be around people who, who, um, who kind of. Get it as well. And so I just, I just, and my final thought is just amazing gratitude for what you guys are, are building here. Thanks Scott. This is a really special place, really special. There's such a wonderful vibe here. And everybody here is here to learn and share. And that's really, really amazing. I wanted to just tell your audience if anybody's thinking about homeschooling. Don't be afraid. There are so many resources out there. And if any of you have questions, um, at freemarketkids. com, there's a contact us button on the bottom. Shoot me an email. I am so happy to answer any questions that anybody has about homeschooling. That's my part. That's my specialty. So, yeah. Self custody or education. Awesome. Well, thank you both. And I guess if, if you're a web dev out there listening to like hit that contact form, it sounds like Scott could use some help. I've proved how little technical skills. You got Bitcoin support up there. We explained, we explained to Scott before the show started how to click retweet on the live stream. So. Um, we're getting there. Um, I want to thank you both. Thank you for coming. Thank you for joining. Thank you, Matt. Thank you for being you. And it's just been a pleasure to meet you guys and get to know you guys. And, and I look forward to, uh, this relationship blossoming over the Over the future, we have to give, we have to give P final thoughts, P final thoughts. Oh, I just, uh, we talk a lot about taking radical personal responsibility. You just said huddle, you know, I think you said huddle your education. I think that it's really awesome to have a conversation with people who have taken that idea. We talk about it a lot with regard to finance and I love the idea of extending that to multiple areas of your life. And I can't think of a more important one than how you choose to educate your children. So I would love to see even more people Taking radical personal responsibility for major aspects of their life. Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you freaks for joining us. Thank you. Huge shout out to the freaks who joined us short notice in the live chat. RDBTC, Bitcoin, uh, who else joined us? There was few, but there was dozens of us. It was great. Uh, Max Trotter, Jay pleb. Thank you guys for joining us. Huge shout out to the freaks who continue to support the show. We don't have ads. So our sponsors can't rug you by design because you are the sponsors. So thank you for supporting the show with your sats, with your Bitcoin. All the links are at sealedispatch. com, available on all podcast apps. Once again, this is going to be a very big week for Dispatch. Um, got some great conversations lined up and also have some conversations that will probably be on Dispatch that I'm not expecting yet. So I'm excited for that. Um, if any of you are in the Nashville area, consider coming down to Bitcoin Park this week. Um, or even if you're three to five hours away, just jump in the car, drive down. More the merrier. We'd love to meet you. We'd love to see you. And, uh, yeah, appreciate you, Phreak. Stay humble, stack sets. Cheers. Thanks, guys. Thank you.