Welcome to the ADHD Women's Wellbeing Podcast.

I'm Kate Moore Youssef and I'm a wellbeing and lifestyle coach, EFT practitioner, mum to four kids, and passionate about helping more women to understand and accept their amazing ADHD brains.

After speaking to many women just like me and probably you, I know there is a need for more health and lifestyle support for women newly diagnosed with adhd.

In these conversations, you'll learn from insightful guests, hear new findings, and discover powerful perspectives and lifestyle tools to enable you to live your most fulfilled, calm and purposeful life wherever you are on your ADHD journey.

Here's today's episode.

We're here to talk about all aspects of ADHD and neurodivergence and today is very much no different.

I'm absolutely delighted to welcome my guest, Abigail Adjaye Jones.

And Abigail is an award winning policy and strategy advisor, diversity, equity and inclusion champion, community builder, and a neurodiversity advocate.

She has over 10 years experience and is known for her work in amplifying underserved voices and fostering an inclusive culture.

And she's been recognized as one of the top 20 influential neurodivergent women in 2022 and received an MBE for her public service.

She's a passionate and engaging speaker and Abigail has delivered talks globally, including her Not TEDX talk.

Yes, black women have ADHD too and need your attention.

I watched it Abigail, it was fantastic and I have to say I literally want to salute you for doing that because it is, it looks terrifying.

So welcome to the podcast.

Hopefully this will be a much less terrifying experience than a TEDx talk.

Thank you so much.

Thank you so much for having me.

I love your podcast.

And yeah, like I always say, tedxes are not, they're not the most ADHD friendly environment trying to memorize.

I look I'm still yet to part of the rsd, probably watch it to the end but I do remember like struggling to memorize it and just winging bits of it from what I could remember.

But yeah, it was definitely.

Well it was brilliant.

It was, it was brilliant.

And I have to say I was watching you and I was thinking why do they not have an autocue?

Why is there not like a prompting kind of thing?

Like there's no way I would have been able to stand there and I can talk and riff about ADHD for ages but if you told me to memorize it and process it, my working memory and it just shows, doesn't it?

It's just another example of, you know, like when kids are at school and they're judged on memory with their GCSes and dates and stats and all of that and you could be the most intelligent person in the world, but if your working memory is different, you perceived as a failure.

And I just wondered, I mean, let's start with the TEDx talk.

Did you ask them, did you say to them this is not working with my the way my brain likes to work?

And how did they kind of come back?

Yeah, and I think sometimes you realize that you're still kind of battalizing sometimes your own like internalized ableism.

Because in the process I did kind of touch on it in the beginning and then I told myself I'm going to push myself to do this and I look back and I'm like, well why would you do that?

You talk about wanting to create more neuro inclusive working environments.

It's okay.

So I feel like sometimes there is still that internalized ableism that you want to try and do things along with other people.

So it was touched and they were like, no, we don't really, we do try and encourage people to memorize it.

And I think for so long I was so focused on like doing all the research and put it all together that I didn't really think about that bit.

So it was kind of like in my head I will get to that and I'll find a way to memorize it.

And then when I got to that, but I thought no, this is actually you're doing a bit of disservice to yourself.

So I kind of towards the end was just kinder to myself and thought, you know what you kind of, as long as you know the main structures and points you want to hear, if you mess up a bit, it's okay, you can incorporate and make a bit of a joke, which I think I kind of did at the beginning that yeah, this isn't the most adhd, this isn't the best for someone with adhd, you know, working memory organization trying to do this but give it a go.

So I think it's something I wish I did probably push a bit more but I know a few people have done and I'm always interested to hear often neurodivergent people their experiences because yeah, I think it definitely should be encouraged and it should.

Yeah.

If we're trying to create and we're sending messages and tedxes are supposed to be, you know, show an important message, then we should make them as inclusive for people as possible.

Yeah, because obviously you clearly Knew your stuff, the passion was there and everything.

And I mean I always kind of think about my kids and where they are and how the education system is not supporting neurodivergent kids even now.

And I talk about GCSes all the time and how it's just a complete mirror to how broken the education system is because you know, that is reflective on where the kids stay at school, whether they have the confidence and the self esteem to then kind of go, you know what?

I'm capable of A levels, I'm capable of university education.

But if they can't do eight to 10 subjects, whatever it is at GCSE and memorize all the things and retain the information and not get overwhelmed and all of that, then that's where their education kind of stops.

And we know that there's a much higher ratio of children, I guess, that leave school at 16 with ADHD and don't fulfill their potential.

And I guess even more so in the marginalized communities where, you know, let's, let's talk about it in the black community.

I know that you say that there's still a stigma there, there's still a lack of awareness and understanding of potentially what ADHD is.

Maybe you can tell me a little bit about your experience because I'd be so interested to hear it.

Thank you.

Yes, you're right.

Everything you said is totally correct and I think that's why it's so important to have conversations like this because you're right.

We are still, I think often working in environments that just aren't conducive and benefit all people.

And I always say creating more neuro inclusive working environments benefit everybody because it's just thinking about ways we can make things easier for all.

And I think when I reflect back on my.

So I got like a lot of us, especially women got my ADHD diagnosis much later on in life.

And I definitely reflect back on school and doing generally well in subjects I was really passionate about.

And I had an understanding for kind of more the creatives, English, history, if there was, if I could find that niche or interest, I really captured my mind.

But other subjects I was never really good at science.

My mom always said I was quite good at math until it got to a certain point.

And my mom said she feels like I always over complicated things.

She always thought the simplest of things I would find like hard and then things that she couldn't get her mind around.

So I don't know if it was just a different way that my mind worked, but I definitely reflect back on kind of looking and looking at school, reports of, yes, Abigail kind of being chatty, but always asking lots of questions.

I think that's just because of how my mind worked.

And, yeah, Abigail kind of just needs to kind of be a bit more still.

Her mind is always wandering.

She's always thinking about different things, always asking those different questions.

I think there's a lot of that kind of inquisitiveness that in women can kind of being seen more as a personality trait.

She's kind of scatty.

She's just a disorganized.

If she could just kind of be a bit more still focused, she could do more.

So I feel like there was definitely history in school of kind of feeling like I'm just missing out on my potential a bit.

So I think that definitely came up a lot.

And then I think university was where I really found things challenging.

So I definitely found things challenging in kind of secondary school.

And I think I tended to always just miss out.

So I missed out on the university I wanted to go to.

And I think now look back, it's because it was the testing that I often think I found more challenging.

So I'd find things really interesting, but under test conditions.

And I didn't know that I had dyspepsia, ADHD at the time.

I think I often had a real challenge with finishing exams in the time, or I could at one point do.

I think there's always that inconsistency.

One point I would do well and then I could totally misread something.

So university, where I decided to do a law degree, again, I think more of the cultural things.

I think coming from a British Ghanaian background, you're often taught that it has to be a career.

So I was really interested in like, history and politics and I considered doing that at uni.

My mum was like, oh, but you thought about law.

I was always passionate about kind of human rights.

So my mom was like, oh, we would talk about things and I thought I wanted to be human rights lawyer.

So mum was like, well, why don't you do a law degree?

Which I think I found very challenging at uni.

I think the amount of information to read, to understand.

I really struggled in university at that stage.

That was.

I was really struggling with, yeah, the level of work, the amount of research, like all that area.

So I think that's where there was really those challenges.

And even looking back at school and university, I think there was definitely a history of often looking around and feeling like, why is it taking me?

So I feel Like, I'm putting just as much effort into things and more effort.

I feel like I'm staying up later or I'm trying to do this, and it just seems to be coming easier to people, and I can never really understand why.

So I think, yeah, getting that diagnosis later on in life definitely helped me understand that there's different ways my brain works and there's different ways I do things.

And that's okay, because I think when you don't have that understanding, you're constantly trying to do things the way other people are doing it and not understanding why it's not working for you in the same way.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I guess did anyone during school ever flag up that there was some kind of, like, learning difference or did anyone ever say, oh, you might need some extra time, or check in with your parents?

Like, was there any form of kind of insinuation that you might need some extra support?

No, I think there was always just kind of element of, she maybe needs to just push herself a bit more.

It's like there was always a feeling of like, maybe the foundations are there.

But I think there was more of a thinking of, she's not trying hard enough.

Maybe it's because she's being too talkative, she's asking too many questions.

I think it was that was looked kind of as a negative and not maybe understanding that.

Why does she ask these questions?

Why are there challenges and understanding things?

It wasn't until.

So I got my dyspraxia diagnosis in university, and that was from another person I was at university with who had dysfraction.

They thought.

I think we just generally were having discussions I couldn't write about.

I couldn't do a lot of these things.

And she's like, I think you might be like, I'm dyspraxian.

I think you might be dyspraxic.

I remember speaking to this person who was like, yeah, your posture, you can't ride a bike, you struggle with your left to right all this stuff.

And then your essays and stuff.

I think it might be dyspraxia.

So that's when I went to university and was like, yeah, this dyspraxia word has come up from someone.

What is this?

Something to look into.

And then that's when they were able to kind of get somebody to speak to me.

And I got a dyspraxia diagnosis in university and then ADHD much later on.

But prior to that, no, there'd never been anything talked about that made me think there was any Further support needed.

Yeah.

So it's.

What's really interesting is that what we know now is that, you know, any of these neurodevelopmental differences don't travel alone.

They always travel with a partner, with a friend, obviously.

It's like a co driver, co rider.

And it just depends.

You can have quite a few in the back or one or two.

Depends who's driving.

And it depends who's got, like, the foot on the pedal.

And that's kind of like how I see all these different types of neurodiversity is that your dyspraxia may have just been a bit louder at the time, and it might have just been more prominent.

And then different times in our life, like, the ADHD then takes over and we find a way to kind of like, manage the dyspraxia.

And I see it, listen, with myself, with my family, like, all the different things, whether it's dyspraxia, dyscalculia, dyslexia, there's always like a bedfellow with the adhd, with other things like OCD as well, and anxiety.

And when we understand it, it kind of normalizes it.

And I try really hard to have these kind of conversations with my kids where, you know, my daughter, one of them, the other day came home and she, bless her, is like, very gangly, long arms, long legs.

And she.

I got her assessed for dyslexia maybe when she was like, six, I don't know, five or six.

And it kind of came back inconclusive because some ways it did show up.

Yes.

Some ways it didn't.

But she's always been really clumsy and, like, she's blessed.

She's made her joke out of it, but I know sometimes it does.

There is shame there.

And she said the other day she fell down the stairs at school with her friends.

And my little heart, like, just wanted to.

I was, like, so sad.

But she was sort of laughing and she showed me her knee and it was all cut open.

And obviously she scrambled up and picked up a bag and everything, and her friends kind of like, picked her up and they were laug.

But I know in her there was probably some internalized shame there where she's like, why can't I walk down the stairs and not trip over my feet?

Or, you know, that type of thing.

And so I try and explain that to him, say, well, you do know there's, like, dyspraxia there.

Because even though it didn't come back conclusive, we do know it's There.

And when you have these conversations and you just sort of say it as it is, or when there's things like now with your ADHD and how you're able to have that awareness and reflect and say, right, that's what I do find really difficult.

And that was a real challenge for me, me.

And it may be if a teacher had turned around and said, you know, there's a reason why you struggle under pressure, but you're really good when you're asking lots of questions and processing it verbally and.

And I think with ADHD people, we really do process things really well verbally, which is why I think during these kind of conversations in a podcast, we can really get into the nitty gritty.

Exactly.

There's like self reflection moments.

But I guess going back to your passion and where you advocate within the black community, what is going on that is different to what I experience as a white person?

Why is there still less understanding, less awareness and I guess less support and advocacy?

I'd love to hear from what you're hearing, you're seeing and maybe what you've experienced as well.

Yeah, I think there's a number of things, I think, and when that kind of those intersectional elements come.

So we know the experiences and challenges that women can often have with adhd, neurological conditions and the differences and then adding that element.

With black women, when I was doing a lot of my research, a lot of things came up and I think that do often can start from a young age.

So I think black women did more likely to have a late diagnosis or misdiagnosis.

And when I was doing a lot of the research, I'm reflecting on kind of my own experiences, something called adultification comes up quite a lot.

So adultification of black girls and black boys.

And it's this element of kind of.

Of young people being seen as older than they are and being treated as older.

And it was really interesting when I was doing a lot of research and kind of looking into reports and reflecting on some of my own experience, sometimes in school as well, is sometimes black girls and black boys are more likely to be expelled from school than kind of white counterparts.

And something that came up when I was kind of looking at reports, especially by an organization called Agenda, they were saying things that would come up and what they were hearing back is black girls and children kind of being treated older or that they need kind of less support.

And things that will come up is when they are kind of needing more support, they kind of seem being seen more as disruptive.

So Sometimes I think because of that adultification, that kind of being seen as older.

And we see in the criminal justice system where black children and black people more likely to be seen as older and get harsher treatment, sometimes when you're seen as more adult, like you're not really treated as a child that needs that support.

So that's something that was really interesting when I was doing a lot of that research.

I think there's also a lot of stigmatization, fear of stigmatization for black families.

So I think there is a history in the education and healthcare system.

There can be quite a fraught relationship with black communities.

So I know that for instance, black children mentioning that kind of more likely to be expelled, there's tendencies to have kind of more negative experiences with educational and health systems that can make it that fear of being stigmatized.

You don't want your child to be seen as lazy or bad.

So sometimes there's that fear of kind of being associated with any labels.

And that's something I've definitely heard before.

I was recently doing a panel talk with the Ghanaian association of Social Workers and it was really interesting to hear some of their experiences.

And they were talking about working closely with communities.

And then kind of when they do say that they think, oh, your child might need more support, might be dyslexic, have adhd, dyspraxia.

There's that real fear of, I don't want my child to be labeled as stupid or have more problems.

They're already kind of dealing with racism in situations.

I don't want them to kind of have more labels, they're deemed as negative.

So I think that's something that kind of can come up as well, which is really interesting to hear as well.

And I think some of the few other things that can also come up is just that sometimes when you are from a black minority or immigrant background, that kind of working twice as hard narrative is really instilled in you.

And I definitely reflect on that.

And I think not intentionally, but I think my parents were always kind of like, no, we see that you're a smart child and you are a hard working child.

You just, you are, you know, you're from a black background.

You're especially.

I moved to Essex at quite a young age, so I was used to being in backgrounds where I'd often be one of the only black children in class.

So I think sometimes you'd be taught that you have to work twice as hard, things are going to be more challenging, you have to push yourself harder so you're often just thinking, well, that's maybe what I need to do.

So sometimes I would think that I must not be working hard enough.

Maybe that's what it is.

And things are going to be challenging and maybe teachers are going to be harsher on me because I'm different.

So I just have to prove myself.

So I think that's something I reflect on.

And I didn't realize that I did need more support.

And I was having challenges tying my shoelaces and I was kind of having challenges, my coordination and asking more questions to get a better understanding.

I was doing that to learn more.

But sometimes you can feel a bit more like you don't.

You want to kind of assimilate.

I think that's really taught, especially when you're from a minority background, you want to assimilate with everyone else and try.

So sometimes you're thinking, okay, maybe that's it.

I just need to try and fit in.

And I think that can be linked to that fear of labels.

I think the other things, especially for a lot of black women, when I'm having conversations and especially when I did work in the Department of Health, that was something that constantly come up is there's a lot of health care disparities.

So then there's a lot of barriers to access for black women, access to quality care.

There have been reports that kind of shown that black women are more likely to deal with challenges of cultural competency and systematic racism.

So I think that can be a lot of challenges and especially engagement with a lot of communities.

I do a lot of work with ADHD babes.

It is an amazing organization that helps black women and non binary women.

I think Viv has been on here, hasn't she?

Yeah, she's been on the podcast.

Yeah.

So I think when we're talking in those groups, yeah, it was amazing.

I love working with them.

And I think a lot that kind of comes up is that there's.

They really have to advocate for themselves.

And there's a lot of kind of really being conscious that when you're in these spaces, you don't want to be deemed as an angry black woman.

You really want to share your experiences.

But there can be that distrust in the medical health system and.

And there can also be those challenges when you are trying to advocate that.

Oh, are you sure it's that?

And I think when going through work first and tell them that I thought I might have adhd, I think helped me because I was able to not get official diagnosis, but a workplace assessment That I think helped me go to my gp and I kind of had something.

There was still kind of a lot of you seem to have done well in school.

Are you sure it's not anxiety?

And all these things can be part of it, but they're often exacerbated because that original ADHD diagnosis isn't in place.

So I feel like, yeah.

And I've heard a lot of women's experiences where it's kind of, especially about women, really been dismissed.

And it's been a lot of challenges and kind of really feeling like they have to advocate for themselves.

I can think that's some of the challenges that definitely come up.

Wow.

I mean, I'm hearing what it sounds like.

It sounds incredibly exhausting.

But also what you're fighting against is, like, this deeper systemic racism.

There's trauma there.

There's inherited trauma.

It's generational.

And you're battling something alongside the neurodivergence, like, as a white person, as a white woman's experience, it's deeply exhausting.

We're masking, which, like you say, we're trying to fit in.

We're wondering, why does life feel harder for us when we're looking around and everyone else seems to kind of, like, have the handbook?

And we're just like, why?

Why do we feel different?

Why are we not understanding or processing things the same?

And then for yourself, another black women's experience.

I wish there was more representation.

You know, I probably have done so many workshops, but I would say the proportion of black women who come onto my workshop is probably, you know, very small.

And I often wonder, and I think, is it because of me?

Is it because of what I represent?

Or is it because not enough black women are understanding their ADHD or understanding that it's there?

Or is it just a blend of lots of things where they have just kind of know that they've got to keep a lid on everything and they've got to keep quiet and not, you know, cause too much fuss because, like you say, they're working twice as hard to just excel, succeed, be part of, like, society without having to.

I don't know.

There's so many cultural pressures and the systemic racism, and I kind of think, how can we make this easier?

How can we have this conversation where ADHD spans across all communities?

And I've had this conversation with the Asian communities, Jewish communities, black communities, and it has to be like an open forum so women can feel that they can speak within their communities and feel safe, but also help other people as well.

You know, talk about neurodivergences.

So it's not a stigma.

I mean, even I was diagnosed four years ago, and for the first two years of my diagnosis, I was.

There was still, even though I was helping lots of other women, I wasn't speaking publicly about it in I guess, my community and with my friends and family.

It still felt very shameful.

And yeah, I still get it to this day.

Like, you don't look like you should have adhd or like why you're really well educated or you have got a family and your house looks really tidy and just all these different kind of misrepresentations of what ADHD looks like in women and girls.

And so we have to just break down these taboos and have these conversations.

I'd love to talk to you about the healthcare disparity and what happens, because I know and again, forgive me if this is not 100% correct, but there's a horrific statistic of black women are more likely to die in childbirth than white women.

Where would that come from?

Yeah, I think it's a mix.

At one point it was five times more likely.

And that's where there's this amazing organization that does a lot of work on that that called 5x more.

Now I think it's gone down to 3.5, but still shocking figures.

And I think my understanding of a lot of things I think come out from that is I think one sometimes that culturally competent care.

So I think there's sometimes still not an understanding of different people's experiences, especially from minority backgrounds.

I know for a long time there was a range of misconceptions.

And I remember I had friends who was nurses who were saying it was only until recently some of their textbooks didn't say things such as there was a thinking that black women could handle pain more.

So a lot of kind of really ignorant kind of thinking.

And she said she remembers her early studying.

Some of this stuff was still alluded to in textbooks.

So I think there's still a lot of that thinking that they can handle pain more sometimes that fear.

Back to our saying kind of being deemed as angry.

So it can be a catch 22 of sometimes you're kind of being silenced to or not really being heard and you're really having to advocate for yourself.

Sometimes you're being dismissed.

I think there's some of that fear.

And yeah, I think there is a lot of expectation and something else, a framework that I found really interesting.

I think it's called superwoman schema.

So it's this cult.

The idea of these cultural expectations are often placed on black women to kind of have it all together to be nurtured, to be domesticated, to kind of be there for everyone means that they often are sacrificing their own well being and own care.

So I think that can be something where there's such the outside world can be looking at them and placing all these expectations on them and they can be placing it on themselves as well.

So I think it can be a real mix of things and I think that happens in a lot of places where we often see that disparity.

So that's why I'm always thinking, yeah, it's so important for the advocacy work and those more to have those more community groups and organizations like 5X, more like ADHD babes do amazing work to encourage black women and non binary people to advocate for themselves more in ways that they can.

And but I think there also needs to be a lot more people and communities, health practitioners and education practitioners, really kind of analyzing their own policies and making sure that they're kind of culturally competent and they are thinking about people from all marginalized communities experiences.

So I think, yeah, I think that's some of it.

And I think we definitely need to see things more black mental health practitioners and more black psychiatrists and more from diverse backgrounds as well.

Because just like it affects black people like you've mentioned, you see in Asian communities, you see in the LGBT community are more likely to kind of get that diagnosis.

So that intersectionality really does happen.

And when we are kind of getting more of an understanding, it does help, I think all communities.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I think our generation, we're being cared for and looked after probably for, you know, by generation 2010, 20 years older than us, who have not had that diversity and they've not been taught by diverse professionals and teachers and lecturers.

So like you say, it's this sort of like top down filteration that's still not quite there.

And I think, you know, maybe the generation now that is, you know, going through, you know, medical school training, all of that, there is definitely more diversity and we're seeing, but we're not seeing it fast enough and it's not filtering through.

Like you say, if you're a black person that wants to hear from a black psychiatrist and understand ADHD through that lens and through that filter and sort of like you say, all the cultural connotations and nuances that maybe a white psychiatrist just wouldn't understand because it's not been their experience.

But They've also not been taught, it's not in the textbooks.

So they've only got one lens and one filter to go through.

The very same way, you know, ADHD is only, you know, was only typically seen as in boys and men, you know, like up until very recently.

So we're then having to.

There's a whole gender thing that's going on now with adhd.

And then if you've sort of bringing in the race and the culture side, unfortunately we're not going to be hearing it from, from the professionals.

And thankfully, we have people like you advocating and going on podcasts and doing TED talks and going in and trying to train people within organizations.

And we're all.

Anyone that's listening to this now kind of takes this mantle, hopefully, that everyone does, to advocate wherever they are, whether it's, you know, in their family, whether it's in school.

And we have this role, unfortunately, we may or may not want it.

But until society changes, until there's an unfortunately, I think it is going to be another big long generation.

We just have to kind of do what we can do within our little environments, our communities.

That ripple effect.

So whether it's in a church or it's in a school or it's in an organization, or it's in a Girl Scout group, you know, I was.

My daughter's part of a netball club and I spoke to the head of the netball club and there must be a couple of hundred girls who play netball.

And I said, has anyone ever come in and spoken about neurodiversity and adhd?

She's like, no, but we probably should.

I was like, I can guarantee you if these girls are playing netball and they're training two or three times a week and they're really, they love it, there's going to be a high proportion of girls who are kind of channeling their ADHD through sport and getting, you know, and so this is what I'm talking about is like, wherever, you know, there's a high proportion of girls from whatever community, it's like, get out there and be that advocate because no one else is doing it for us.

And I think that's what's been, I think, so brilliant to see, I think especially in the community, especially seeing a lot of women and of people from every minority background.

I think that's what's been so good about social media.

And I know there can be a lot of people can worry about disinformation.

I think social media, podcasts, spaces like this really give people avenues to Share their experience, to advocate and to make people aware.

And I think that's why I've enjoyed it kind of being in panels and that's why I do so much work kind of.

And I've been really looking at lately in church, like you said, Christianity plays a huge part in the black community.

So I have been looking a lot of things about how I can really get people to understand in church because there can be that fear with Christianity and kind of mental health and all these things like where we do have these spaces and access.

I think it is so important to kind of advocate and to make people aware and to create that support.

So I think, yeah, that's what's been good.

That I think a lot of this groundwork we're doing now can feel small, but in the long run I think is helping create awareness on a bigger scale.

I wonder about that.

When you talk about Christianity in the black communities and there's obviously traditional roles that are seen and we know that Sari Soldon talked about this back in the early 90s and she called them she messages.

And that is what we hold from a conditioning perspective.

Like women's roles should in inverted commas should be the homekeepers, the caretakers, the parents, the cooks, the cleaners, the this or that.

And when we can't fulfill that role, then we have.

That's like a negative impact on our self esteem and our confidence.

And then other people see us and then like you say, it's like a negative trait.

There's something that's wrong with us because if she can't keep her home organized or she forgets things, then what kind of mother is she?

And I wonder if that is something quite systemic as well in the black community.

If you have to kind of have it all together from a domestic perspective.

Yes, I think definitely.

And I think like you're saying that's where I think a lot of those societal and cultural expectations, I know coming from a background, especially being British, Ghanaian, something, some of those challenges I've definitely faced and you feel a lot of shame and is the idea that, yeah, you're taught that you have to be domesticated and as a black British guardian woman, domesticated, a nurturer, kind of take care of everybody.

And when you feel like you're not fulfilling all of that, there can be a lot of that shame.

And you're taught, yeah.

That you, you just have to, like I mentioned earlier on, kind of work twice as hard, things are going to kind of be harder.

You've kind of got to Deal with it.

So I think there can be a lot of that shame of feeling like you're not doing enough or why is it more challenging?

And there can be a lot of that shame, which is why I think especially having.

So having those community groups and support groups is so important to hear other women who are from a similar background to you.

And I definitely, when I look back, especially working in the civil service for the number of years I did, I did thoroughly enjoy it.

But I, when I first got that ADHD diagnosis, there was a part of that kind of internalized ableism and shame that thought, oh, this is like another label now.

I'm already kind of a black young woman.

There's not many people who look like me working in this space.

I know I have to work hard.

And now if I bring this other label, is there more shame?

Is there going to be more barriers?

So there's a lot of that kind of internalized kind of thinking and shame that can sit with you.

That I think, why is support so important?

To kind of have that culturally competent support and have more of an understanding that your brain works in a different way?

This is, you know, you can thrive with this.

You shouldn't have to just survive.

It's just about kind of understanding more the strategies.

And yes, there's going to be challenges and there are challenges, but there are different ways to do things, and you do have strengths within that.

So I think it's really important to understand that.

Yeah, I think it's really powerful for you to be able to say that and say as it is, that, yeah, like, actually, it's not fair.

Why should I have another label?

Why should I have something else to contend with?

You know, life feels hard enough as it is, as, say, an immigrant family or having to do that, work twice as hard and have all these expectations improve and having to prove yourself over and over again, but then move from that place where it can feel that you can sort of stay in that maybe, like, resentment to like, okay, how can I find a place of empowerment?

How can I find the strength and the strategies and the support and find a place where I can talk about this and it doesn't feel shameful?

And I guess that moves me on to my next question is what if someone's listening to this right now and they find that they have had to mask a lot more and they've not been able to talk about it due to stigmas or they've not really been able to have this kind of conversation in public?

Where would you point people to like what are you doing in this area?

And I guess what do you hope for the future?

I think really utilize.

Don't be afraid to kind of look if you don't have that support, whether that's in work, don't be afraid to look for that community out there.

There is so much support out there.

So many podcasts like yourself, so many community groups like ADHD Babes that I mentioned.

Am I paying attention there?

Two amazing women who do a lot of work looking at ADHD and autism with women.

Ellie Middleton does a lot of work with her Mask project.

There's so much community out there and support out there.

There's so much different kind of ways to understand how to work with your brain.

I always say that's so important as well.

Like I've really tried to look at things that I'm always talking about when I go into organizations.

The importance of understanding that to have more breaks during the day, that's okay, go for walks.

Breaks should be encouraged.

Compassionate kind of understanding of how people's different brains.

It really is really helpful for me after meetings, once we've had a meeting to put something in writing afterwards.

Just the key points.

There's so.

I think often people can think when it comes to kind of workplace adjustments or support that they have to be really expensive or time consuming.

But really taking the time to kind of understand what people's challenges are and the better ways that they can work.

Simple things can be put in place to make people thrive more.

I always encourage taking the time to understand people are not.

Not everyone has a language, we don't.

Not everyone knows that they're a neurodivergent.

But just I would always encourage you to kind of really understand, sit down with people.

Start with a kind of strengths based approach to kind of understand what do you like to do?

I have a form actually that I used to have when I was working with people and it had.

It was literally a form, a personal preference form just to understand how people work in the workplace.

So understanding the hours they like to work in the day.

How do you like to receive feedback?

What do you really enjoy doing?

What do you struggle with a bit more?

What can we put in place that's helpful?

And I think that's often a good starting point to engage with people and I often would share mine with them as well to make them feel comfortable.

So I think there's such simple ways in a working environment or a space to really understand the different ways that people work and what you can bring to a place.

I always say that.

Yeah, don't be afraid to look for support if you can't find it within the comfort of your friends or family.

There's so much support out there.

Community wise.

Don't be afraid to kind of.

We should all be promoting the importance of like workplace support.

But don't be afraid to kind of think about different ways.

And I will share that form that I have with people if they need it to start those conversations in work.

And I always say, just be kind to yourself.

I think people who neurodivergent were our own biggest critic.

So like the compassion you show to others, try and show it to yourself.

And that's why I always think getting a diagnosis is so helpful if you can get it.

Because I think for a lot of women particularly as well, it just helps you to be kinder to yourself.

I think when you kind of have a bit of a better understanding.

I think having that understanding has helped me.

You go through those phases.

I often say you go through the phase of grief sometimes when you get it, there's anger for why it took so long.

There's those, those elements of frustration.

You're kind of grieving what could have happened or could have been.

But I think for me, I've definitely.

You definitely start moving to the phase sometimes of understanding more that this is how I do things.

And this is like, it gives you a real, often better understanding and compassion for yourself.

So I would say that, yeah, be kind to yourself.

Yeah, I love that.

And what you just said then, that personal preference form, that sounds amazing.

I mean, we should all have that for all relationships.

And you know, like, you start getting out with someone new, be like, here's my personal preference.

Yeah, make dating so much easier, wouldn't it?

Yeah.

Get an understanding of me from this perspective and how we can like bring these different ways of working and understanding each other.

It's a good way.

Totally those conversations.

Yeah.

Because sometimes it can feel so daunting and overwhelming to kind of say, actually I do need a walk every hour, or I do like to sit by the window or that type of lighting really hurts my eyes.

Like, it's really hard to say that without feeling.

And especially if we've gone through ridicule before or dismissal or invalidation or any of those things will be just so terrifying.

But if a work in the workplace and they could just turn around and say, oh, this is like totally normal and it's just out there and it's just done and it's right at the beginning and the Difficult, difficult conversation's been had.

Are you able to share.

Yes.

An example of that?

I'll happily send that over to you.

Yeah, because I think, yeah, I think it's so important to have that, like you said, that they can feel so much pressure with somebody coming into a new space.

And I would say I think the honest should be on the environment to understand, to share your kind of needs but also understand theirs.

And I think it's always a good way to kind of start that conversation.

If people don't really know what support they need, it's a good way to help people think about that because you can come in and you've often just survived in spaces that you don't even know what support you need.

So it can really help people frame that thinking and then if more support is needed from that conversation, fine.

But I think, yeah, it's a good support, support starting point and it can just be a simple conversation to really understand and also make that person feel comfortable because you're sharing kind of how you work as well.

Amazing.

Abigail, thank you so, so much.

I'm going to put all your details in the show notes, including the TED Talk, which was just amazing.

We're going to put that form in and I guess what, you know, people are listening to this conversation and kind of thinking, I would love to be able to connect with Abigail, like, what services do you do?

Like what's kind of on your agenda, you know, for the next, next year or so?

Yes.

So I'm currently working on getting my website done and every time I think I'm like, yeah, that's the ADHD me.

I need to just, I think, need to get out there because I think sometimes you want something perfect, don't you?

And I'm like, no, I just need to get it out there so people have all my information.

A landing page.

Exactly.

A landing page.

To start off at the moment I've been doing a lot of work with organizations.

I was recently working with Crisis, doing some work as well, recently with a range of different organizations, kind of just getting them to understand how to create more newer inclusive working environments and really thinking about that intersectionality aspect.

So I'm doing just a bit of that at the moment.

And yeah, I can share details where people can access me.

A lot of have a blog that I have on LinkedIn as well.

So that's kind of the main things.

It's basically been kind of working with organizations, getting them how to understand how to create more neuro inclusive working environments.

Also been working with ADHD babes as well.

Thinking about that kind of community outreach and what work we can do to engage communities as well.

Amazing.

Well, it's all honestly so needed and so important and I hope we hear more voices like yours coming out there and helping more people understand themselves and get that support and the validation and the connection and all of that, because there's a lot more to do.

Abigail, thank you so much.

It's been amazing.

I've loved this conversation.

Thanks so much for having me, Kate.

I really enjoyed it.

If you've enjoyed today's episode, I invite you to check out my brand new subscription podcast called the Toolkit.

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