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I have a burn book.

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Like in Mean Girls, I have a burn book of sales managers, either my own or my friends, my

peers, who have just swept in and gone, Bethany said you could only get this?

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no, no, no, I can give you this.

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Boo, terrible.

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You are bad sales leader if you do that.

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that is, oh, bad salespeople, bad.

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Because it just, hurts everybody.

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looks like an idiot because they couldn't get the right price.

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The client thinks, okay, this company doesn't know what I'm doing and they've given me a

rep that's an idiot that has no power or authority to do anything.

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And the manager shot themselves in their foot because guess who's going to have to

negotiate every deal moving forward for that customer.

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And if you are enabling that as a sales executive, you're a bad sales executive.

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Burn book goes all the way up.

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Don't worry.

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Hello and welcome to Haverin About, our brand new podcast where we mix stories, strategy

and a bit of Scottish-style blethering I'm Stuart Miller.

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and I am Bethany Miller-Urroz, his daughter and co-host.

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So, Dad, what has been occupying your brain this week?

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Well, aside from work, planning for this podcast, et cetera, house insurance.

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The audience may not know, but we had a big storm here in Southeast Minnesota at the end

of July, and it blew over a hundred-year-old oak in our side yard.

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Unfortunately, it did hit the house, and it's kind of wiped out the roof.

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of our kind of garden room extension that we have off our living area.

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And side swiped the kind of block end of our house and like, you know, punched through the

chimney stack and destroyed a bunch of the siding And so I have been that happened in the

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end of July.

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We're recording this towards the end of September.

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So you can see it's been a few months and we've been going backwards and forwards with the

insurance company and.

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It's reach and with contractors to just like try and get what we need done to the house.

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And we have a good insurance policy, but if you've ever made an insurance claim on your

property, one of the things you'll realize very quickly is it's business.

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The insurance company on one side has the objective of giving you enough money.

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but not too much.

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And you have the objective on your side of, I want my house made good, under the standard

I insured it for, which in our place is replacement value, which is they're supposed to

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make it good as new, not just, okay, well, your house is 20 years old and the siding was

20 years old and the roof is 10 years old.

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So therefore we're only going to pay you X.

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So, you know, from that perspective, we're going backwards and forwards and

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They've come back and said they only want to patch some stuff and we've said no, and

you're to have to replace it all.

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So I've been, I've been off doing research on the, that particular brand of siding and the

particular roof shingles and working out the kind of rationale as to, well, why would we

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have to replace it all?

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And it's like, it's great.

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So what I found out about the siding is well,

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Yes, it's still available and in that color, but no longer in the long Lengths that you

would use, you know, which is like 14 foot and longer.

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They only do them in shorter lengths which means that this big solid side of our house is

going to be made up of a patchwork of the shorter lengths.

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So I've said it's discontinued because they've discontinued the lengths that are being

replaced.

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And so therefore it all needs to be replaced.

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you know, with an appropriate product.

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And then the same with the roof shingle.

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What I found out from the company that manufactures the shingles that are on there is that

they are certified as a system.

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And so therefore, for your warranty on the roof, if part of it was older, like installed,

and then they replaced another part of it, it's no longer a system.

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because they're obviously different ages and so on and so forth.

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So therefore the warranty is degraded.

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So I've been working out all my arguments as to why they have to replace the entire roof,

because they've effectively, it's not being made as new.

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So that has been my week.

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is just like never ending research and coming up with logical arguments as to why it has

to be one thing rather than

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Ultimately, it's down to the classic thing of insurance company only wants to give you so

much money and you want more to be able to get to where you feel that you should be.

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When as you and Mom have been telling me about this, it's just like the negotiations that

we do in sales.

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Because I saw the insurance company sent a report and said, well, this is what's wrong.

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And then the contractor or the doctor came in and said, well, yeah, but this is what needs

to be fixed.

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And then they came back and said, well, we'll do that, but not this.

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And the two of you, you and your contractor, you and your doctor and the insurance

company,

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you're just redlining this document back and forth.

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And so eventually, I you're going to land on something and you will no longer have a hole

in the side of your house anymore at some point, maybe.

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Well, and obviously that's our objective is to get the solution that we believe that we

need to be able to sort of continue living happily in this house, cetera.

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And I think that it's kind of interesting.

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We've reached an inflection point where we've had to bring, we've had to initiate

something called the appraisal clause.

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Google it.

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You'll work out what that is.

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And basically it's bringing in some experts to say, well, yeah, what is the

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What is going on in terms of the value of the house if you do this or don't do this, et

cetera.

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And so that process is about to go on now horribly, horribly.

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If they don't agree, because basically the insurance company gets an appraisal and we get

an appraisal and they're supposed to resolve it through kind of like a negotiation

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process.

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If they don't reach

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a successful conclusion, then the horrible part beyond that gets a little bit more legal

and it has to go to an arbitrator who basically will sit in judgment and go, I agree with

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that guy or I don't agree with him on this and et cetera, et cetera.

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And they will basically make a ruling as to what the claim should actually be.

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But we're pretty convinced, myself and our contractor, pretty convinced that the insurance

company has low balled us.

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in terms of, you know, they've given the minimum they really need to, and that actually,

you know, through this appraisal process, we'll get up there.

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And so it's that classic thing of starting in different places and trying to come to the

middle at a point whereby, as one of my old bosses used to say quite often is, nobody's

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happy.

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Nobody's happier than everyone.

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is you're trying to make everybody happy and that's unusually almost impossible.

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But now we're trying to get to at least nobody's happy.

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It can be satisfied but not happy.

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So you've been dealing with all these contracts and red lines and experts and pushback.

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Obviously those are skills that you have learned over your career and it's nice to know

that you can apply it to not only selling healthcare technology but also with home

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insurance.

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And it is a flawless transition into this week's episode which is all about negotiation.

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Yeah, negotiations.

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negotiations are everywhere when it comes to dealing with health care information

technology.

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Clearly, the contracting cycle is one part of it.

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But it can also be about negotiating an implementation plan, negotiating some variation to

support that if you have a situation, you suddenly need extra support or more accelerated

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support.

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How can that happen?

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So those negotiations happen everywhere.

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But I think what we're going to do, and they also apply to kind of like partner

relationships as well.

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If you're in a commercial setting and you have partners, you're often in a situation

whereby you're negotiating what the rules of your alliance are gonna be.

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Or if you think about it from a personal perspective, when you join or sometimes even when

you leave a company,

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you get involved in negotiations and it's how you apply to those But I think today we're

going to concentrate on the real aspect of, you well, how do you handle negotiations as a

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vendor with a hospital or health system and vice versa?

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How is a health system?

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Do you handle your side of those negotiations?

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Which, you know, I maybe tell a little anecdote about when I left.

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the provider side as a hospital manager over to the dark side, working on the vendor side.

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The procurement manager of the hospital system I was in, I'd become quite good friends

with, and he actually gave me a gift of a book, which was the uh Miller-Heinman strategic

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selling.

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And he said, take this, you're going to need it.

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So there was a guy who was heading up procurement inside a hospital who basically was

trying to understand the playbook of the vendors.

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And so that was a very important lesson right early in my career, you know, in my early

thirties.

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went, boy, right.

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OK.

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He was a smart man.

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Yeah.

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Buckle in.

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You got to learn this stuff.

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All right.

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So let's dive straight into it.

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One thing that I think you and I both love is, you know, when you, when you've gone

through all the selling cycle and you're getting to this negotiation stage, what are the

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terms that you are actually negotiating?

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How do you break down that 60 plus page contract, which may be your own company's contract

as well as any.

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subcontractors that you're using, any hosting or anything else, how do you break those

things down into the actual negotiables?

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Yeah, so I think it's really interesting when you actually get involved with a hospital

health system.

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Sometimes they'll have, if they're big enough, they have internal counsel, you know,

either a procurement specialist who is quasi-legal, maybe even a paralegal.

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Some health organizations have lawyers themselves on that, that will assist with the

procurement.

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All health systems typically have some kind of legal counsel in-house.

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but they may be focused on different aspects of legal risk and not necessarily always

procurement.

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But either way, you will have somebody who is going through and trying to be nitty gritty

about every line in your 60 to 100 page contract.

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And so the challenge is, yeah, that can be tiresome and tedious to go through, but the

real meat typically comes down to anything from five to 20 key items.

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that are real deal breakers potentially in terms of between you and the party on the other

side.

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And so looking at that and breaking it down into a term sheet, which is I separate those

out from the huge tens of thousands of words in this big contract and break it down into

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here's the critical things that actually really matter to both of us.

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And quite often it's, yeah,

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prop.

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So if you're on YouTube,

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love the prop.

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You get the prop.

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I'll carry on talking.

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But really taking those key items, breaking them down, and making it very explicit.

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What is it that we are likely to sit and have a debate about?

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And how can we position against that?

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Because that does two things.

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One, it provides some focus through all this.

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mist of war that is the kind of like legal rattling the saber that goes on on the rest of

the contractual document.

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But it also allows you to start plotting a strategy as to how are we going to try and

position each of these things?

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Where are we?

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Have we got some flexibility to have some debate and give some things?

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But it also allows you to kind of weigh up that as you go through that term sheet,

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It allows you to weigh up what is the relative importance from one party to the other of

each of these items that are in the term sheet.

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So I think term sheets are really, really useful.

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And aside from anything, it's great when you can go check mark against one of them and go,

all right, we've reached agreement on that one.

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What are we boiled down to now?

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Yeah.

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my prop, for those of you listening on podcast services and watching on YouTube, is an

index card.

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Mine aren't as fancy.

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So this is one of my favorite tips from Mike Fiorito who dad and I both worked with.

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Incredible salesperson.

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And what was great about him is yes, he could do all the sales negotiation stuff.

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but he broke it down and he always had these index cards and they always had his name on

them.

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were very bougie index cards.

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And he would literally just write down column by column what they wanted, what we wanted.

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And he would sit and be like, okay, where do we need to be here?

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And then, you know, there's been times when, and I'm sure, you know, as you're prepping

with your sales manager or your finance team or your legal team, and it's like, oh, they

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really want, you know,

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three year term and we really want to push them to five and you spend like hours figuring

out how you go from three to five and then you get into the conversation you say five and

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the client just goes yeah okay that's fine.

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You're like wait I just prepped all of my all of my rationale and my reasons why and you

just agreed to it but you've got to prep for all of those things you have to know and this

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is where if you I think

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where you're really lucky is if you're in like a 200 to 500 person company, because any

bigger and your legal teams are like, you're not gonna get your general counsel, they're

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too far away.

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And if you're a small team, you are also stretched that you just, you don't know what's

going.

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But when you're in a couple hundred person company, you do have access to your legal team

and your security team, your compliance team.

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If they are good and they are smart and you have a great sales enablement team, which

we've been blessed to work with many great sales enablement teams in our careers, they

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will explain to you the contracts and they will explain why we want certain things and why

we don't want certain things and where we have flexibility and where we don't.

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And if you are a salesperson and you don't understand those things in your contract, you

have to go to your manager or your legal and an answer, whatever bit.

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you don't understand and figure out why they care about it.

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Because there's probably a reason, there's hopefully a reason, but you have to understand

kind of their rationale behind what they're sticking on for some of these things.

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Yeah.

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And sometimes the other thing to watch for in your career is sometimes that will change

even within the same company, within the same product.

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You will find that last quarter the company wanted this and that was important to them.

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And this quarter they now have shifted their position as to what's a drop dead uh item.

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And that can often be informed by things that you don't have visibility into.

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Like quite often I remember if there had been a financial audit inside the company, you

know, I've worked for a lot of publicly traded companies, if there'd been a financial

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audit and the auditors come in and go, well, I know that that was how you were treating

revenue recognition, big words, but now we need you to...

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treat it this way.

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Suddenly, that can shift in a second, your whole negotiation position from one quarter to

the next quarter, because now they're basically the auditors are saying if you don't

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change the way you handle this, then we're going to move that forward.

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We're going to treat that revenue in a different way that may impact what the CFO is able

to project forward.

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So it can be things that seem very Byzantine.

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and unrelated to you trying to get a deal with the customer.

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You need to be able to adapt to that.

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And you need to stay on top of those things as well.

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Keep your finger on the pulse, your ear to the grip, whatever analogy you want.

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You need to stay tuned into are things shifting?

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And as Bethany said, I have worked with some amazing sort of like deal advisors internally

who were basically

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in charge of that.

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And usually it was somebody in finance who was staying on top of those things and then

would be directing what was happening with effectively deal telegraphing.

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How can we shape things now?

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there's been some, that's a person to, if you're going to be responsible for negotiating,

that's a person to develop a very warm relationship with.

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Buy them chocolates, buy them flowers.

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whatever it might be, depending on their interest, because they become really important to

keeping you in the right guidelines for being able to successfully negotiate.

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that's another kind of experiential tip that you should try and get early on in your

career is make sure you understand who those people are so that you can have that rapport.

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When I think anyone that sold healthcare technology software in the, I'm going to say like

2017 to 2022, when everything was shifting from term license to subscription, where guess

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what?

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If you can secure a nice five, seven year term, life is great.

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To subscription where, you know, I worked for a company where they shifted from, yes, we

want three year, five year, and we will comp you

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on your three-year fine, the more years the better, you will get more money.

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And then literally overnight it was, don't care about term, we just want one year

subscription.

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Subscription, that's all we care about.

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It was like, really?

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and suddenly it didn't matter if you had a five-year SAS ACV agreement.

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That suddenly didn't mean anything from a revenue perspective.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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exactly.

211

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It's good times.

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It's good times when the industry shifts like that.

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know, it left a lot of scars on me at the time.

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I think the other thing, you know, to just go around, you know, as well as knowing your

own company stakeholders and what matters to them is understanding who you're selling to,

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their internal stakeholders and process.

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And that's been a, you you mentioned the alignment.

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That's been a thing in sales for forever, right?

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You got to know who signs the deal, but that has shifted again tremendously over the last

few years.

219

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And you would think

220

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You you and I have both done campouts for a wet signature and you just sit in the lobby,

sit in the Panera and the Starbucks and you wait for your wet signature.

221

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Now it's mostly electronic, but that's not necessarily easier.

222

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No, because a lot organizations have invested in procurement automation systems, either as

part of their ERP in an extension or a specialist products to be able to do it.

223

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One of the things that does is it takes it from, like you were saying in the old days, CIO

would get the final copy of the contract from you and either would walk you in

224

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to the CEO to sign it, or they would walk in, get it signed and come back in and go, there

you go, congratulations, and off they would go.

225

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So it was a very linear transaction.

226

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You understood it very cleanly.

227

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The challenges now, and this kind of reflects back on the Knights who say no that we

discussed last time that is in the Substack article, is now in that procurement,

228

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uh approval system for a contract, you might find there are 15 steps and seven people who

are involved in the 15 steps, but then going backwards and forwards.

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And I first came across that in a deal I was trying to get done with Orlando Health,

whereby we were sat with their paralegal person.

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And she was trying to explain to us

231

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why this was going to take three days.

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And I was like, well, OK.

233

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And she explained who each of the parties were in their chain, their workflow chain.

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And then she explained how two of them were out on PTO.

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People at executive level in hospitals and health systems get a lot of time away.

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Either for personal family PTO or they go on conferences or they get they're just out of

the office.

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And so therefore, they

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Those two individuals had a policy of they wouldn't sign anything that wasn't on a locked

down computer at their desk.

239

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And so therefore they had to be in the office to push that button.

240

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They wouldn't do it on their laptop.

241

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They wouldn't do it on their phone.

242

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was literally their policy was, and it was individual policy, that unless they were there

at their desk to press that button for their approval of that step,

243

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then it didn't get done.

244

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And that's why she had to explain to me.

245

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And unfortunately, it was quarter end and they weren't going to be back till two days

after.

246

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And of course, you know, I got I got a less than friendly call from our CEO.

247

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What do mean they're not going to sign today?

248

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So those kind of steps.

249

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So that's why it's very, very important to try and diagnose not only who those people are,

you know, the Knights who say no.

250

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but also how are they going to execute?

251

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It's one of the things I ask my salespeople all the time.

252

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Do you know exactly, one, do you know what software system they're using to sign and

approve this?

253

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How are they gonna do it?

254

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How are they gonna execute?

255

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Who's on PTO?

256

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Who's out in the office?

257

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What are the backups?

258

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And have that conversation with your executive sponsor, whoever it might be, to try and

get that inside track as to what that process is because,

259

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you will be gotcha'd in ways that you can't even imagine.

260

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And it's very, very important for your own sanity, as well as to give accurate reporting

back to your leadership as to where that goes.

261

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And so that's that, that I think is an important part of, yes, the technology has made

that nominally easier.

262

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It's also made it more complicated.

263

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that then typically complication normally means not easy.

264

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265

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When I've managed people, managed a sales team, I've not believed a close date unless I

have seen an email where they've said, okay, just to confirm what we said on the phone or

266

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here's the notes from the meeting that we discussed this.

267

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And it says in there, we'll sign by X, by Y on this date and by this process.

268

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And they will go to this person and then this person on our side Unless I see that written

down.

269

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I believe that you're trying for that date, but I don't believe that they, the client has

necessarily agreed to that signed date.

270

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Two very different things.

271

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Well, and just as you're saying that, and I'm thinking about the Knights you say no, um

there's one I forgot to mention last week that is appropriate to negotiations, which is

272

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the whole idea, and we came across this several times in my career, whereby an external

procurement consultant is brought in who typically is wheeled in as a negotiator to review

273

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your contract.

274

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And sometimes that can be just pragmatic of, like I was explaining earlier on, they don't

have any inside counsel who are doing this, so they bring in a lawyer or something.

275

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The other one to be careful and watch for is a procurement consultant.

276

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Typically, that is somebody who all they do every day is negotiate vendor contracts.

277

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And so therefore they are trained, experienced and have a lot of history of sitting down

opposite vendors and they are typically paid a bonus if they're not on a flat rate on the

278

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basis of, how much can you get this price down?

279

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So if there's a starting place and then they come in anyway, they can structure their

consulting gigs the way they want to, but typically they will come in.

280

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uh One apocryphal story.

281

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which was the mid Atlantic when I worked there for a company a number of years ago, there

was a very well known by name consultant who basically got involved in every single deal

282

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we did from Maine down to Virginia, up and down the I-95 corridor.

283

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So wherever we were shortlisted and were a vendor of choice, up he popped.

284

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And basically, think he was following us around.

285

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And then he would go to the CFO of that institution and go, I know how to get these guys.

286

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If you just hire me and here's my fee, et cetera.

287

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So anyway, we got to the point whereby our CFO at the time is a gentleman called Bob

Coletti.

288

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Bob basically, uh the way to try and shorten your negotiations was if you said, yeah,

so-and-so is involved in this one, you just get, insert a stripe of expletives.

289

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And then he'd go, yeah, sure, fine, whatever.

290

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Just, know, okay, I don't even defend that.

291

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Just fold on those, but do it gracefully.

292

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So that was it.

293

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So I think that's another player.

294

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that as you're negotiating, just watch out for suddenly a consultant, external consultant

being introduced who is not outside council, but is actually a procurement consultant.

295

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296

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Yeah,

297

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I have a burn book.

298

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Like in Mean Girls, I have a burn book of sales managers, either my own or my friends, my

peers, who have just swept in and gone, Bethany said you could only get this?

299

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no, no, no, I can give you this.

300

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Boo, terrible.

301

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You are bad sales leader if you do that.

302

00:26:47,982 --> 00:26:51,913

that is, oh, bad salespeople, bad.

303

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Because it just, hurts everybody.

304

00:26:56,714 --> 00:26:59,737

looks like an idiot because they couldn't get the right price.

305

00:26:59,737 --> 00:27:09,496

The client thinks, okay, this company doesn't know what I'm doing and they've given me a

rep that's an idiot that has no power or authority to do anything.

306

00:27:09,557 --> 00:27:16,235

And the manager shot themselves in their foot because guess who's going to have to

negotiate every deal moving forward for that customer.

307

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And if you are enabling that as a sales executive, you're a bad sales executive.

308

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Burn book goes all the way up.

309

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Don't worry.

310

00:27:25,203 --> 00:27:33,948

What's worse is when you're a sales manager and you try to be good and ethical and

strategic and planned about this.

311

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believe me, there are times when you might say, listen, you as the rep, your relationship

that you've built and established with these guys is so important.

312

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I don't want you to be the bad guy.

313

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So let me play the bad guy, particularly if it's something whereby you're drawing a hard

line.

314

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Absolutely not.

315

00:27:54,759 --> 00:28:02,205

um And so that's one that I think if it's negotiated and it's clear and transparent

between you, then that's fine.

316

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Because then it's part of your playbook.

317

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It's part of how you're gonna sort of conduct the relationship with the client.

318

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The one that I hate the most.

319

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And I've probably got a couple of CEOs, maybe not in the burn book, but whereby I'm like,

okay, I'm never getting them involved in a negotiation ever again.

320

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Is where...

321

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you bring the CEO into kind of like do the kind of warm, you know, kiss the baby meeting

with the C-suite on their side and things.

322

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And then suddenly they are giving stuff away that you fought really hard to defend.

323

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And I've had that happen to me a couple of times in life.

324

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And I would say that particularly for smaller organizations, be very clear about that.

325

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If you're going to undermine the guys that you've got,

326

00:28:47,789 --> 00:28:59,028

doing that because this is your, I mean, the company is literally your baby that you're

trying to grow and accelerate, but still try and be ethical in the way that you deal with

327

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that and be professional about how you do it.

328

00:29:01,660 --> 00:29:11,350

And the greatest, the greatest I have ever seen a CEO be is he turns around to that

C-suite and goes, you know, I really want to thank you for your business.

329

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I think you're awesome.

330

00:29:13,461 --> 00:29:14,452

This is my guy.

331

00:29:14,452 --> 00:29:15,923

This is my gal.

332

00:29:15,955 --> 00:29:18,657

I really trust them, they're gonna look after you.

333

00:29:18,657 --> 00:29:22,379

So make sure that is how a CEO should behave.

334

00:29:22,379 --> 00:29:26,781

Even if internally they're screaming going, my God, I wanna close this deal.

335

00:29:26,781 --> 00:29:40,168

So I think that it's about trying to have that restraint and not be the person who,

because what'll happen is that customer will remember, ah, okay, I need to go all the way

336

00:29:40,168 --> 00:29:46,161

to, insert name of CEO, to be able to get the best deal or to get the attention.

337

00:29:46,343 --> 00:29:59,584

And if they give out their cell phone number or they give them a private email address or

something, and to establish this warm rapport, believe me, that customer will never lose

338

00:29:59,584 --> 00:30:01,636

that and never forget it.

339

00:30:01,636 --> 00:30:05,359

And they will go, okay, I now have a hot wire.

340

00:30:05,359 --> 00:30:13,506

It can seem very enabling and empowering to do that, but just be very, very careful about

what you wish upon yourself.

341

00:30:13,644 --> 00:30:14,624

Absolutely.

342

00:30:14,624 --> 00:30:23,884

No, I think if you're a rep, you just have to be aware of, you know, if you are the

quarterback for the account as the account manager, or if this is a new logo account and

343

00:30:23,884 --> 00:30:31,204

you're out there being the hunter and you are at the head of the pack, you just have to be

aware of who you're bringing in.

344

00:30:31,924 --> 00:30:34,104

And, you know, like I love a prep call.

345

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I love a prep call.

346

00:30:35,164 --> 00:30:41,100

It kills me when the chain of command in sales do not turn up for the prep call.

347

00:30:41,100 --> 00:30:44,262

because they're like, I know how sell, I've been selling for 30 years.

348

00:30:45,083 --> 00:30:49,446

But you have to enable the rep because otherwise why is the rep there?

349

00:30:49,446 --> 00:30:56,850

If you are the leader and you can close every deal yourself, why are you paying someone

six figures?

350

00:30:56,850 --> 00:31:00,704

I bring up that comment about early stage companies.

351

00:31:00,704 --> 00:31:07,751

Because in very early stage, like startups, it usually is the CEO who is out pitching and

trying to close deals.

352

00:31:07,751 --> 00:31:22,451

And as you scale and start to have a sales force, can feel very dangerous to let go of

that and to feel like you can trust your sales team to close the deals.

353

00:31:22,451 --> 00:31:27,915

And sometimes you can't, sometimes you find that you haven't hired the talent that you

thought you were getting.

354

00:31:27,915 --> 00:31:30,096

So that becomes really important.

355

00:31:30,096 --> 00:31:39,961

We can do an whole podcast about the kind of, okay, well, you know, who are you hiring and

for what type of capabilities and competencies.

356

00:31:39,961 --> 00:31:42,963

uh But let's save that for another time.

357

00:31:42,963 --> 00:31:50,577

But I think it becomes very important that as you scale, you can no longer be the closer

as the CEO.

358

00:31:50,577 --> 00:32:01,602

You've got to look at being able to enable your sales team to take that over and to be in

that position whereby they're closing the deal, they're negotiating the last items on that

359

00:32:01,602 --> 00:32:02,573

term sheet.

360

00:32:02,901 --> 00:32:12,866

Well and I think that kind of goes back to what we were talking about at the beginning of

what's best in a deal for a customer, is not necessarily what's best for the rep and it's

361

00:32:12,866 --> 00:32:15,326

not necessarily best for the company.

362

00:32:15,407 --> 00:32:15,727

Right.

363

00:32:15,727 --> 00:32:19,648

There are certain times when one of those three will, will win.

364

00:32:19,648 --> 00:32:22,840

There's always someone who's getting a better deal, right.

365

00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:23,431

In a deal.

366

00:32:23,431 --> 00:32:25,793

And it could be any of those three.

367

00:32:25,793 --> 00:32:26,153

Right.

368

00:32:26,153 --> 00:32:29,714

And it's, you know, especially I think for the company.

369

00:32:30,406 --> 00:32:35,550

That goes back to what I saying about, you know, it used to be a three year term, now it's

a one year term that we want.

370

00:32:35,811 --> 00:32:40,484

Well, okay, that's great for the company, but it's impacting my commission.

371

00:32:40,690 --> 00:32:40,982

Yep.

372

00:32:40,982 --> 00:32:42,278

So, let's take a look at

373

00:32:42,278 --> 00:32:55,578

had deal structures change in the middle of a commission year, that's always a really,

really gnarly one for people in a sales role, is that you start the year, you get your

374

00:32:55,578 --> 00:33:00,278

ICP, your comp plan, and you look at it and you go, oh, okay, I've got a fair chance.

375

00:33:00,278 --> 00:33:02,638

I've got this amount of pipeline whatever.

376

00:33:02,638 --> 00:33:04,758

Yeah, okay, can see how I can do that.

377

00:33:04,758 --> 00:33:08,978

I need five deals of this size, three deals of that size.

378

00:33:09,981 --> 00:33:11,922

Yeah, that'll get me to these triggers.

379

00:33:11,922 --> 00:33:20,028

So, you know, if you've been in sales for a long time, you that's first thing you do, you

know, all the verbiage about, you know, the companies have rights to do other things.

380

00:33:21,469 --> 00:33:26,592

another thought, we need a podcast on compensation plans and how to adjust to them.

381

00:33:26,592 --> 00:33:29,594

And I think we both know a really good friend for that.

382

00:33:29,594 --> 00:33:30,374

Yeah.

383

00:33:30,374 --> 00:33:35,563

I think he literally wrote a book about comp plans We'll get him on the score.

384

00:33:35,563 --> 00:33:35,793

go.

385

00:33:35,793 --> 00:33:38,084

We'll get Chris on the line.

386

00:33:38,084 --> 00:33:42,686

Anyway, so I think that it's very important to you to look at that.

387

00:33:42,686 --> 00:33:47,789

But also, misaligned incentives becomes very, important.

388

00:33:47,789 --> 00:33:56,882

I'm sure Chris would cover this, is when you're creating a comp plan, it needs to be

aligned with the company's objectives.

389

00:33:57,266 --> 00:34:00,977

which need to be aligned with the executive's comp plan.

390

00:34:01,098 --> 00:34:13,074

Because I think the other thing that can happen is if the executives have a set of

incentives either related to the growth of company or some metric that is out there or

391

00:34:13,074 --> 00:34:24,189

suite of metrics, and that doesn't map onto the way you have structured compensation for

your sales organization, you're going to get misaligned incentives.

392

00:34:24,189 --> 00:34:24,983

Because

393

00:34:24,983 --> 00:34:31,189

the salespeople are going to be out there trying to structure deals that are this shape,

let's say rectangular.

394

00:34:31,189 --> 00:34:36,473

And meanwhile, the executives are sat there going, no, everything needs to be an octagon.

395

00:34:37,034 --> 00:34:46,843

And that's when things get really, complicated on the vendor side of things to try and be

able to negotiate that through.

396

00:34:46,843 --> 00:34:51,626

But I think that one of the other things is that that

397

00:34:51,768 --> 00:35:05,272

kind of applies a little bit similarly in terms of on the client side as well, whereby

sometimes, yeah, you'll have somebody who is there and they're driving for, want the best

398

00:35:05,272 --> 00:35:11,414

technical solution, but somebody else will be driving and saying, I want to spend the

minimum amount of money.

399

00:35:11,634 --> 00:35:20,488

And that money can then break down to a fight between, I want to minimize OPEX versus I

don't want to spend any capital.

400

00:35:20,488 --> 00:35:32,908

And that might seem perverse in these days of SaaS, but it still applies that sometimes

you can have pocketed or bracketed budgets that are being addressed for a given solution.

401

00:35:32,908 --> 00:35:35,288

And you need to understand how those work.

402

00:35:35,288 --> 00:35:45,848

But sometimes people are looking for some other value out of the relationship and the

partnership that sets you apart from either your competitors or strengthens the

403

00:35:45,848 --> 00:35:46,768

relationship.

404

00:35:46,768 --> 00:35:48,288

So I don't know.

405

00:35:48,288 --> 00:35:48,978

mean, do you want to?

406

00:35:48,978 --> 00:35:57,589

You want to explore that for a few minutes in terms of how you can sometimes negotiate in

a deal things that aren't just about the money or the SLA's.

407

00:36:18,479 --> 00:36:19,490

Yeah, absolutely.

408

00:36:19,490 --> 00:36:31,783

think especially in, in my, when I've worn the hat of kind of more of an account manager,

a strategic account manager, if you've got some big name brand, lovely clients that you

409

00:36:31,783 --> 00:36:45,654

would love to shout from the rooftop, contractually negotiating use of logo, use of name,

contractually obligating them to webinars and white papers and case studies.

410

00:36:45,748 --> 00:36:47,819

That is huge, huge.

411

00:36:47,819 --> 00:36:53,163

Because you can then go to all of the ones that are similar to them and say, well, look,

they use us.

412

00:36:53,223 --> 00:36:54,444

Can you hear all of this?

413

00:36:54,444 --> 00:36:55,764

great stuff.

414

00:36:56,024 --> 00:36:56,645

And you know what?

415

00:36:56,645 --> 00:37:03,369

I will always give a little bit in a deal dollar wise if I'm getting something like that

in return.

416

00:37:03,369 --> 00:37:09,594

And I think most companies would agree with that, depending on your, again, on your

company, where you're going.

417

00:37:09,594 --> 00:37:14,297

If you just need cash in the door because you're just trying to make payroll, very

different story.

418

00:37:14,297 --> 00:37:19,702

Or you've got a mature product and it's a bit churn, churn, churn, just keep building the

volume.

419

00:37:20,383 --> 00:37:23,856

But that's not typically true with a lot of technology solutions.

420

00:37:23,856 --> 00:37:33,668

Typically you are trying to establish more market acceleration on the new logo side.

421

00:37:33,668 --> 00:37:34,450

Yeah.

422

00:37:34,450 --> 00:37:38,439

What other creative things have you negotiated into contracts?

423

00:37:39,987 --> 00:37:44,652

we have had, attendance at user conferences.

424

00:37:44,652 --> 00:37:57,667

You know, sometimes because of the operating budget, people have a challenge being able to

fund, being able to attend user conferences or conferences in general.

425

00:37:57,688 --> 00:38:02,429

And sometimes we would be able to add seats.

426

00:38:02,725 --> 00:38:10,109

to that are basically free of charge as far as the registration is concerned, you still

have travel and hotels and so on and so forth.

427

00:38:10,109 --> 00:38:12,191

But you would actually facilitate that.

428

00:38:12,191 --> 00:38:26,721

But the other thing that we did with a couple of organizations in my time was because they

were acting as reference customers, we actually helped them build out a reference suite,

429

00:38:26,721 --> 00:38:29,318

literally a space that

430

00:38:29,318 --> 00:38:32,752

allowed them to be able to host their guests there.

431

00:38:32,752 --> 00:38:40,099

sometimes that's funding certain technology in that space, like your projection technology

or audio technology.

432

00:38:40,099 --> 00:38:47,636

Sometimes it was in relationship to just literally furnishing and rebuilding it to make it

acceptable.

433

00:38:47,636 --> 00:38:54,743

Now you take a dead space in an organization's buildings and turn it into something that's

actually usable.

434

00:38:54,743 --> 00:39:03,066

And the advantage for that organization is they then get to use it for other things, not

just for when they're hosting one of your potential customers.

435

00:39:03,066 --> 00:39:04,568

So I think that's another one.

436

00:39:04,568 --> 00:39:07,604

um We've also, yep.

437

00:39:07,604 --> 00:39:16,624

was gonna say, I think it goes back to, yes, you as sales, your job is to get dollars in

the door, but it is important to be cross-functional.

438

00:39:16,624 --> 00:39:24,784

Go and talk to your customer success team, your reference team, your support team, other

teams that exist in your company, even R &D.

439

00:39:24,784 --> 00:39:26,444

Do you need beta testers?

440

00:39:26,444 --> 00:39:29,804

Do you need clients who are going to agree to be early adopters?

441

00:39:29,804 --> 00:39:34,004

Go talk to the R &D and your engineering teams and figure that stuff out.

442

00:39:34,004 --> 00:39:35,264

Especially if you're a sales leader.

443

00:39:35,264 --> 00:39:42,044

If you're a salesperson, can go make friends, but a sales leader can make friends with

those other departments.

444

00:39:42,144 --> 00:39:52,784

And if the reference team are drowning and their performance is being impacted because

they don't have good references, you can make their lives a lot better by negotiating some

445

00:39:52,784 --> 00:39:54,144

of those things for them.

446

00:39:54,144 --> 00:40:00,864

So I'm a big, big proponent of making friends with the teams outside of just sales.

447

00:40:00,864 --> 00:40:02,104

Like, yes, bring the dollars in.

448

00:40:02,104 --> 00:40:03,416

That is your job.

449

00:40:04,062 --> 00:40:09,403

but how can you best help the company and your peers because what goes around comes

around.

450

00:40:09,403 --> 00:40:12,088

It's going to help you at some point down the line.

451

00:40:12,539 --> 00:40:23,853

The other thing that I think, and this may apply to a lot of early stage companies as

well, is that if you're looking to try and get somebody as a reference, you need to be

452

00:40:23,853 --> 00:40:38,119

able to prove value for future business, know, basically case studies of what the outcomes

and the value delivered and derived by your solution have been.

453

00:40:38,119 --> 00:40:41,932

I can tell you that customer organizations are terrible at doing that.

454

00:40:41,932 --> 00:40:47,497

They go into procurements with all the best intentions of the world of, here's the reasons

we're doing this.

455

00:40:47,497 --> 00:40:56,545

And yes, of course, we're going to be able to prove that we've achieved value X or outcome

Y, et cetera.

456

00:40:56,926 --> 00:40:58,827

Sometimes they need some help.

457

00:40:58,848 --> 00:41:00,980

They need some help to be able to drive that forward.

458

00:41:00,980 --> 00:41:05,083

So I've been in deals whereby we have actually

459

00:41:05,498 --> 00:41:19,112

effectively allowed them to have a discount, but the quid pro quo wasn't dollars, the quid

pro quo was you will allow us to help you measure this analytically by benchmarking,

460

00:41:19,112 --> 00:41:25,995

working out what the before and the after is of us implementing this technology and then

writing it up.

461

00:41:25,995 --> 00:41:34,145

And then you will agree that if we've agreed that this is what the outcome is to letting

us publish that and maybe we publish it jointly.

462

00:41:34,145 --> 00:41:43,949

And I've gone so far as whereby we've actually had people publish in academic journals

what the impact and outcomes of some of those things were.

463

00:41:44,189 --> 00:41:56,212

That is golden from a reference ability perspective because suddenly it's a lot more

credible than just your marketing flyer saying, well, generically, the value and benefits

464

00:41:56,212 --> 00:42:02,598

can be derived of this or giving them an ROI calculator, which, you know, a lot of

customers

465

00:42:02,598 --> 00:42:11,318

will go, oh, okay, that's interesting, but I don't believe it and I'm gonna discount it to

75 % in terms of the values that come out of it, blah, blah, blah, blah, They've all got a

466

00:42:11,318 --> 00:42:16,118

rationale as to why they are not gonna believe that story out of the gate.

467

00:42:16,118 --> 00:42:26,038

But if you've actually got a reference customer who has documented their process of how

they prove their value, that is golden.

468

00:42:26,038 --> 00:42:29,118

So sometimes negotiating that,

469

00:42:29,292 --> 00:42:35,828

in response for a better deal or a better relationship or priority support or whatever

else it might be.

470

00:42:35,828 --> 00:42:44,094

That's incredibly valuable if you're at the early stage of a product and you're trying to

get it established in the market.

471

00:42:44,627 --> 00:42:45,807

Absolutely.

472

00:42:46,807 --> 00:42:53,447

So to summarize, think I'm going to give my number one tip that I've learned in my career.

473

00:42:53,447 --> 00:43:01,227

And this was something I learned back in the day in my very, very first healthcare

technology job.

474

00:43:02,307 --> 00:43:07,987

my manager at the time, Amanda Mitchell, who is a wonderful, very, very smart person.

475

00:43:08,847 --> 00:43:09,347

She sat us down.

476

00:43:09,347 --> 00:43:10,787

We were, we were customer advocates.

477

00:43:10,787 --> 00:43:13,382

So we were going to hospitals who were very

478

00:43:13,382 --> 00:43:15,544

pissed off with us and trying to fix them, right?

479

00:43:15,544 --> 00:43:20,005

Me and an engineer would go in and be like, hi, we're here to fix your stuff.

480

00:43:20,485 --> 00:43:26,768

And I ended up marrying mine, you know, don't marry your sales engineer.

481

00:43:26,768 --> 00:43:39,832

unless it works out, but anyway, regardless, the number one thing that she taught was when

you're in these presentations at the end of your site visit, you're going to be in a room

482

00:43:39,832 --> 00:43:40,684

with C-suite.

483

00:43:40,684 --> 00:43:49,773

And sometimes you're going to have to tell them, you never invested in training, you never

invested in this, and you did a really crappy job and now you have crappy results because

484

00:43:49,773 --> 00:43:50,314

of it.

485

00:43:50,314 --> 00:43:52,555

And people don't like being told off.

486

00:43:52,936 --> 00:43:59,101

But if you keep talking and talking and talking and talking, they're never going to be

able to respond.

487

00:43:59,182 --> 00:44:05,688

And if you ask a question, and I think we're all guilty of this sometimes if we know it's

an awkward question.

488

00:44:05,890 --> 00:44:13,917

We ask the question and then we ask it in another way and then a slightly different way

and then we say, well, maybe you think this and we just blah, blah, blah.

489

00:44:13,917 --> 00:44:16,180

Yeah, yeah.

490

00:44:16,180 --> 00:44:21,519

It sounds like, you know what Bethany, it sounds like somebody should write a book about

that.

491

00:44:21,519 --> 00:44:26,815

Maybe if they were to call it Agile Client Engagement, I think that would be an awesome

idea.

492

00:44:26,815 --> 00:44:27,757

that'd be a great book.

493

00:44:27,757 --> 00:44:37,185

But just being comfortable enough in negotiations to put something out there, especially

if it's in personal Zoom or Teams or whatever, and just shut up.

494

00:44:37,606 --> 00:44:40,449

Just shut up and let them talk, let them respond.

495

00:44:40,449 --> 00:44:43,962

I've seen so many salespeople and I've been guilty of it myself.

496

00:44:43,962 --> 00:44:45,533

I've seen you do it too.

497

00:44:45,533 --> 00:44:46,595

You just talk and talk.

498

00:44:46,595 --> 00:44:49,477

You talk so much that you start a podcast with your dad.

499

00:44:49,477 --> 00:44:50,927

It's great time.

500

00:44:50,927 --> 00:44:54,342

But I really do think one of the best tips is just shut up.

501

00:44:54,342 --> 00:44:56,929

Shut up and let the customer respond.

502

00:44:58,271 --> 00:45:11,708

And I do think it's something that's quite powerful to just, you know, particularly if

you're at a very challenging part, to your point, it can sometimes feel very compelling

503

00:45:11,708 --> 00:45:23,965

that if the customer is, you know, either grimacing on the other side or worse, and

there's like showing signs of distress on their side, that you just

504

00:45:23,965 --> 00:45:27,078

fill the void with repeating.

505

00:45:27,078 --> 00:45:29,819

Usually it's repeating the point over and over again.

506

00:45:29,819 --> 00:45:31,680

Customer heard you the first time.

507

00:45:31,701 --> 00:45:33,262

They still don't like it.

508

00:45:33,262 --> 00:45:39,266

So therefore the answer is, pause, hiatus, let them speak.

509

00:45:39,266 --> 00:45:43,008

Because they haven't responded to it other than through their body language.

510

00:45:43,008 --> 00:45:48,243

And so you need to have the courage to stop banging the nail into the wood.

511

00:45:48,243 --> 00:45:51,695

Because if you keep doing it, you're going to damage the wood.

512

00:45:51,695 --> 00:45:51,975

i.e.

513

00:45:51,975 --> 00:45:53,215

the relationship.

514

00:45:53,215 --> 00:45:57,277

So therefore, sometimes just sitting back and letting the customer.

515

00:45:57,277 --> 00:46:03,720

It also applies at the beginning, whereby how do you find out what the customer really

wants?

516

00:46:04,700 --> 00:46:11,183

Sometimes it's you present, this is here, this is the deal, this is the rationale.

517

00:46:11,183 --> 00:46:12,905

This is where we are.

518

00:46:12,905 --> 00:46:16,536

Then you shut up and let the customer react to that.

519

00:46:16,678 --> 00:46:24,203

and let them come out because oftentimes you may have assumed that one of their really

important things is this.

520

00:46:24,203 --> 00:46:27,625

And then they come and they blurt out that.

521

00:46:27,885 --> 00:46:31,557

And you go, oh, OK, I would never have thought to ask that.

522

00:46:31,557 --> 00:46:33,409

now I understand, et cetera.

523

00:46:33,409 --> 00:46:37,081

So you and Amanda are 100 % correct.

524

00:46:37,081 --> 00:46:42,564

Sometimes silence is an incredibly powerful tool in negotiation.

525

00:46:44,458 --> 00:46:45,305

agree.

526

00:46:47,037 --> 00:46:48,680

meaningful silence here.

527

00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:57,796

Dad, what is one of your tips or things that you should always remember when you're in a

negotiation phase?

528

00:46:58,704 --> 00:47:04,227

Normally, you're into, if you're around that negotiation stage with the customer, they

actually want you.

529

00:47:04,227 --> 00:47:05,858

They want your solution.

530

00:47:05,858 --> 00:47:15,283

Occasionally, you'll find yourself in dual negotiations with another vendor who's at the

table and it can get tricky because you start second guessing everything that you're

531

00:47:15,283 --> 00:47:16,285

about, et cetera.

532

00:47:16,285 --> 00:47:22,189

But, you know, I've always had a kind of attitude of, my mom used to say this as I was

growing up.

533

00:47:22,189 --> 00:47:25,165

And so here's your bit of Scottish wisdom for the day.

534

00:47:25,165 --> 00:47:28,737

What's for you will no go by you.

535

00:47:28,798 --> 00:47:31,700

In other words, if it's meant to happen, it'll happen.

536

00:47:31,700 --> 00:47:37,775

And so once you're in that negotiation phase, even if it's dual negotiations, they've

probably already made up their mind.

537

00:47:37,775 --> 00:47:39,096

They're not really baking you off.

538

00:47:39,096 --> 00:47:43,169

They're just trying to keep the guy they really want on the hook.

539

00:47:43,230 --> 00:47:49,536

And they're trying to apply pressure by having this impression that they're still

seriously considering.

540

00:47:49,536 --> 00:47:53,719

In 90 % of the cases, if there's dual negotiations, that's the truth.

541

00:47:54,067 --> 00:47:59,120

that even though they're negotiating with you, it's either you or the other guy and

they've already decided.

542

00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:03,854

you know, just enter into it in the best spirit and go on from there.

543

00:48:03,854 --> 00:48:08,919

So I think that that's one of the things that I think just in terms of being sane.

544

00:48:08,919 --> 00:48:18,722

But if it's down to you, you're vendor of choice and they're negotiating, don't try and,

what was that other?

545

00:48:18,722 --> 00:48:21,485

phrase that I learned when I came to the States.

546

00:48:21,485 --> 00:48:25,668

Pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered.

547

00:48:25,668 --> 00:48:34,497

In other words, it's okay to want to get what you want out of a deal commercially, but you

push too far, deal is going to die.

548

00:48:34,497 --> 00:48:37,479

And so that is really what that analogy is saying.

549

00:48:37,479 --> 00:48:45,945

If you've never heard it before, it's probably because it's been expunged from a polite

society, but it was a very powerful.

550

00:48:46,071 --> 00:48:49,530

metaphor that I learned when I first moved here to the States.

551

00:48:49,530 --> 00:48:50,261

Yeah.

552

00:48:50,261 --> 00:49:00,107

Well, I think it goes back to in all things, you know, there's a million techniques,

there's a million programs, there's a million different worksheets that you can fill out

553

00:49:00,107 --> 00:49:02,449

to negotiate something.

554

00:49:02,549 --> 00:49:05,952

But at the end of the day, it is your reputation.

555

00:49:05,952 --> 00:49:07,413

It is your career.

556

00:49:07,413 --> 00:49:10,645

It's your company's career, company's reputation as well, right?

557

00:49:10,645 --> 00:49:15,508

You don't want to, you don't want people to go, my gosh, that company hires complete

jerks.

558

00:49:15,508 --> 00:49:18,280

I never want to do business with them again.

559

00:49:18,906 --> 00:49:21,537

But it's your reputation as a person.

560

00:49:21,537 --> 00:49:24,558

And so sometimes you have to walk away.

561

00:49:24,558 --> 00:49:31,181

Sometimes you do have to burn a little bit of a bridge, but you have to be very careful

when it comes to burning bridges.

562

00:49:31,241 --> 00:49:39,185

But at the end of the day, you have to be able to go to bed that night and put your head

on the pillow and say, okay, I was fair.

563

00:49:39,185 --> 00:49:42,946

I negotiated smartly, hard, whatever, but I can sleep.

564

00:49:42,946 --> 00:49:47,068

I don't have any guilt because I negotiated in a...

565

00:49:48,267 --> 00:49:49,268

mean way.

566

00:49:49,268 --> 00:49:50,999

the end of the day, we're in healthcare, right?

567

00:49:50,999 --> 00:50:02,645

We are all, I hope, working with the mission of making healthcare better, making patients

better, making clinicians' lives better so that they can save lives.

568

00:50:03,226 --> 00:50:05,587

This isn't silly stuff that we're selling.

569

00:50:05,587 --> 00:50:08,209

This is life-changing stuff.

570

00:50:08,209 --> 00:50:15,853

Even if it's a piece of software in supply chain management and it feels very kind of

middleware, day-to-day,

571

00:50:15,853 --> 00:50:18,636

You are a cog in the healthcare machine.

572

00:50:19,979 --> 00:50:32,855

So as long as you can go to sleep after you've negotiated and be at peace with how you

have conducted business today, this week, this month, this year, you're on the right path.

573

00:50:33,188 --> 00:50:34,544

Absolutely.

574

00:50:34,544 --> 00:50:35,841

Absolutely.

575

00:50:37,377 --> 00:50:41,417

Alright, well I think that might be about enough today.

576

00:50:41,417 --> 00:50:50,327

What I'll do now is I'll negotiate with our listeners and say if you liked this episode,

please like, share a comment, subscribe.

577

00:50:50,327 --> 00:50:54,270

We are on Spotify, on Apple Podcasts, on YouTube.

578

00:50:54,270 --> 00:50:57,813

Wherever you need to find us, you can find us.

579

00:50:57,871 --> 00:50:58,132

Yep.

580

00:50:58,132 --> 00:51:01,939

And you can find this on Substack too, where I host my writing.

581

00:51:01,939 --> 00:51:04,735

And that's Haverin.substack.com.

582

00:51:04,735 --> 00:51:05,955

Absolutely.

583

00:51:06,295 --> 00:51:19,835

Now, next week's episode is an episode that is dear to our hearts, literally, when it

comes to Dad, because we are going to be talking about National Lung Transplant Day, which

584

00:51:19,835 --> 00:51:21,463

is on October 9th.

585

00:51:21,843 --> 00:51:23,734

Yep, we are.

586

00:51:23,754 --> 00:51:30,038

So to get everybody up to speed, I received a double lung transplant in the spring of

2023.

587

00:51:30,038 --> 00:51:34,221

The hilarious part of that is I actually had the surgery on April 1st.

588

00:51:34,221 --> 00:51:36,883

So I get to remember April Fool's Day forever now.

589

00:51:36,883 --> 00:51:38,465

And it's completely changed my life.

590

00:51:38,465 --> 00:51:40,486

I got very sick very quickly.

591

00:51:40,486 --> 00:51:42,447

I mean that actually was a blessing.

592

00:51:42,447 --> 00:51:44,991

And we'll tell a little bit about that in the next episode.

593

00:51:44,991 --> 00:51:45,891

But.

594

00:51:46,157 --> 00:51:59,384

I am incredibly robust I am incredibly alive and I'm very grateful not only to have

received the care and attention of Vanderbilt University Medical Center, who cared for me

595

00:51:59,384 --> 00:52:09,260

during that, but also to my donor, who obviously passed to be able to give me the gift

that he decided he wanted to leave.

596

00:52:09,300 --> 00:52:14,939

And to his family in terms of what they sacrificed to be able

597

00:52:14,939 --> 00:52:16,433

to allow someone else to live.

598

00:52:16,433 --> 00:52:19,821

So we're going to talk a little bit about that.

599

00:52:19,821 --> 00:52:25,013

So I've got a much more personal story that we're going to be covering in the next

episode.

600

00:52:25,176 --> 00:52:25,796

Absolutely.

601

00:52:25,796 --> 00:52:30,887

We're going to talk a little bit about dad's story, the lessons we've learned in the whole

process.

602

00:52:30,887 --> 00:52:41,383

I mean, the insight that you get into healthcare when you are a patient or the family

member of a patient going through something this complex is, it just gives you a whole

603

00:52:41,383 --> 00:52:45,375

brand new appreciation of the industry that we are lucky enough to work in.

604

00:52:45,375 --> 00:52:48,966

And we are going to strongly encourage everyone.

605

00:52:49,114 --> 00:52:52,326

If you are not already, please sign up to be an organ donor.

606

00:52:52,326 --> 00:52:57,190

We'll share all the right links in the next episodes uh description and everything.

607

00:52:57,190 --> 00:53:05,025

But we, to echo dad's sentiments, we are so thankful for his donor's family and the

beautiful gift that he gave us.

608

00:53:05,025 --> 00:53:06,556

Cause dad is still here.

609

00:53:06,556 --> 00:53:10,964

We would not have a podcast without the double lung transplant two years ago.

610

00:53:10,964 --> 00:53:12,440

Who would have thought that?

611

00:53:13,256 --> 00:53:21,084

you would be able to not hear me breathing as I speak to you here, maintaining my nice

resonant voice.

612

00:53:21,185 --> 00:53:26,220

So we hope you'll join us, but until then, keep Haverin!