Welcome to the Construction Disruption Podcast, where we

uncover the future of design, building, and remodeling.

I'm Todd Miller of Isaiah Industries, manufacturer

of specialty metal roofing and other building materials.

And today my co host here on Construction Disruption is Ryan Bell.

How you doing, Ryan?

Hey, Todd, I'm doing great.

How are you?

I'm doing very well.

Also, looking forward to a fun weekend.

So, um, sometimes I, I tell some stories to get the show started.

Um, I did want to tell you a story I don't think I've ever

shared with you before, Ryan.

Um, and this is of one of my first jobs, you know, back when I was

in college, I worked a lot of part time jobs to Make my way through

school and all that type of stuff.

But, um, one of my first jobs, um, was actually at a calendar factory.

We made calendars.

Um, unfortunately I got fired because I took a couple of days off.

Nice.

Okay.

Do I get a six with that or five?

I

don't know.

That was pretty good.

I'll give it a six.

Okay, good deal.

Good deal.

Well, let's get rolling here.

So, you know, one of the things I always enjoy here on the show is having

architects, uh, join us on the show.

You know, I think a lot of times we, we think of architects and what they do

in the moment, but we don't necessarily think about the long term impact.

Um, that the buildings that they design have on our lives and, you know, we

think about the impact as far as the aesthetic and, oh, isn't that cool and

nice looking, you know, buildings also impact how we function, um, how efficient

we might be, how comfortable we might be, um, and perhaps even our health.

Um, so today we have Ali Hashmati, an award winning architect who goes

down that road of the impact that our built environment has on our lives.

Um, he goes down that road and, and more than anyone else I've ever encountered.

So as a registered licensed architect with more than 30 years of experience,

um, in architecture, design, public art, and the fine arts, Ali has

worked on numerous large scale award winning architectural projects.

Um, as well as art installations.

Um, his architectural work during the last 10 years has been focused

on the intersection of art, architecture, and neuroscience.

The impact of the built environment on people's health and wellbeing is

his main preoccupation right now.

Um, Ali is an architect, public artist, educator, and public speaker on human.

Human centric architecture.

Currently working with Henning Larsen Architects in Norway.

Hashmati is also a PhD candidate at the Norwegian University

of Science and Technology.

Um, his practice, teaching, research, and writing focuses on the impact

of the built environment on our physical and psychological health.

As well as our well being, even our cognitive performance,

our ability to focus, um, and even on our mood fluctuations.

Titled Biometric Architecture, Heshmati's doctoral research is focused

on the impact of available daylight within the built environments on the

brain's regulation and the circadian rhythms, sleep, sustained focus,

vigilance, and mood fluctu fluctuations.

Um, he is looking for biomarkers of human spatial experience to design more

suitable places, promoting mental and physiological health and wellbeing.

So, I have really gotten over my head with a lot of those words I had to say

there, um, but I think it's cool stuff.

Um, and, uh, before I fully put my foot in my mouth, it's my

pleasure to introduce Ali Hashmati.

Uh, welcome to the show, my friend.

It's a pleasure to have you here today.

Pleasure is mine, Todd.

Um, it's great to be here with you and Ryan, and, uh, I hope, um, we can

make sense of some of those words.

Um, because those are just words actually, but they do have meanings.

I love it.

Sounds good.

Well, and one thing I did forget to mention earlier, um, reminder to our

audience so that they're, that you're all aware, we are doing our challenge words

this episode where, um, each of us here on the show has been given some special

word by one of the others that we are challenged to work into conversation.

So you can kind of be listening, see if you can figure out what our

challenge words are And at the end of the show, uh, we will announce

what they were and whether we were successful at working them in.

Um, so I think it's really interesting, Ali.

Um, you very much have a worldview.

Um, you've lived in some very distinct cultures in your life.

Um, can you share with us a little bit about that background?

And how living in those different worlds and cultures has impacted you today

and your thoughts on architecture and design and, you know, the, the overall

impact that buildings have on us.

Yeah, this is great because I've always said I'm citizen of the world.

Um, you know, um, I've lived probably I've seen, um, a lot of the work, uh,

but, um, I've lived now, um, probably equal life, uh, equal amount of, um,

time, uh, in 3 different continents.

Asia, where I was born in Tehran, Iran, and then U.

S., um, North America, um, where I grew up, essentially,

in terms of my intellectual sort of, uh, leaning and being.

And then now in Europe, where I have a little family of my own.

Um, so, um, I have lived, uh, these different cultures, and I think Each one

of them, uh, have had a, um, um, great impact on the way I, uh, work, on the

way I think, uh, on the way, um, I, uh, essentially, uh, show myself, if you will.

Um, uh, as I said, I was born in Tehran, Iran, um, and, uh, lived

there during the 60s and 70s.

Very happening time there, exciting, exciting time there.

At the very end, there was a revolution and I was involved in a war.

I have actually served, um, in the army and, uh, was in, uh, that,

um, uh, eight year war before, uh, I could get out of the country.

Not that I wanted to be in a war.

Um, I'm a pacifist at heart.

Um, now more than ever.

Um, but, um, I think, uh, it, uh, it did give me a sort of appreciation for, uh,

for life that I didn't have as a young man, um, before going to the, uh, service.

Um, so, um, coming to U.

S., I had to start from scratch.

I had to, um, work my way, I had to, um, study, I had to go to school, that

was my visa, my visa was a, um, study visa, so, um, I started, uh, you know,

a sort of a new life, and I remember distinctly that, uh, for the first

two years, Um, everything was new, everything was different, and all I was

noticing was this difference, right?

I was noticing the cultural differences.

I was noticing the, um, behavioral, different differences.

Everything was different.

But after that two years, that initial sort of initiation into this new culture,

because I had never been outside.

To Iran, Iran, anywhere, anywhere, and all of a sudden I'm in a whole new world.

Um, so this was a great sort of, uh, baptism by fire, if you will.

Um, then dropped into a place that was totally foreign.

But after that two years, all I noticed, All I noticed was the similarities at

the end at the end of that two years or beginning the rest of my life in the U.

S.

at least in I noticed that people are really similar.

You could find that, you know, Todd everywhere, almost.

You could find Ali somewhere else.

You know, there were people, similarities were up.

And, um, I noticed that, We don't really have that much of differences at the end.

And so, um, I, I became a, became an American citizen.

I had come, by the way, this was my, um, total thing that I'd

come to get, get a studies and go back and serve my country, right?

My, uh, Uh, homeland.

Uh, well, I, I guess I was never done.

I, I'm not done to go back yet.

So it's just one thing after the other.

And then I'm still learning and I'm still, um, uh, traveling.

And then, um, in Minnesota, where I was living, um, at the end of my, uh.

Studies, I met this wonderful woman, um, who, uh, decided at some

point that she wants to go back to Norway and here I am in Norway.

Um, so the last 18 years I've been in Norway.

So, if you imagine my, my years has been like, 30, 20 years here, 20 years

there, 20 years in Europe, and, um, I think it does give you a perspective.

That is unique.

And it does give you a perspective that is a lived experience

rather than just visiting.

You're not a visitor anymore anywhere you go.

And, um, 1 thing that I, um, I think I've learned in different cultures,

for example, uh, Midwesterners were, um, amazingly, amazingly polite.

And, um, uh, I, you know, you would just get energy going out.

Walking about people saying hi, smiling to you.

And that wasn't, that wasn't the place that I came from.

Right.

Um, so I had come to Norway and I was, Norwegians are very, um,

sort of introverted, if you will.

Um, I was walking with my wife in this little town she comes from.

And, um, I would just smile and say hi to people.

And she would tell me, do you know these people?

And she would ask.

And I said, no, I don't.

And she would say, why are you saying hi to people?

Like, it was very weird for her.

And, you know, I thought about this for a while.

And I always would say, well, you know, this acknowledging the other person with

the smile and a nod is a human thing.

And she would not understand it, um, until, uh, one day she comes

home and tells me that, uh, she just went for a massage with her massage

therapist, and the massage therapist said, you have a wonderful husband.

Now, I don't know this person at all.

And, uh, she goes, what do you mean?

Um, he, Shibu, this, this massage therapist says, Well, uh, it was

Friday night, I was coming out of grocery store, and he's coming in,

he nods and smiles and says hi.

And I felt so energetic.

I went back to the wine store, got myself a wine and went home

and celebrated with my husband.

So to me, that was just, um, total, um, acknowledgement of this act that the

sort of this sort of very simple act that we do, um, and not in the smile and

saying hi, and how important that was.

So these are the things that I've picked up from different cultures and, uh,

hoping to be a better person for it.

I think that's really interesting and a neat story

there, but I think it's also interesting how you talk about that.

Despite living in these three very distinct cultures and certainly some

differences in terms of habits and norms and so forth, but, um, at our

root, we're all really the same.

So for you as an architect, um, you have to appreciate that because architectural

design and the built environment can also be a very universal thing, um,

because people are fairly universal.

So I think that's really interesting.

Absolutely.

You know, just imagine if.

That wasn't the case, it would be very complex.

I mean, architecture as it is, right?

It's amazingly complex.

You know, you, you have to think about a lot of things,

a lot of differences as well.

Especially now when we talk about sustainability and the fact that something

has to be flexible enough to live for a long time and be usable for a long time.

Resilient, if you will.

So, yes, yes, it is amazingly true that at their heart, You're fairly similar.

So that's really good.

That's neat.

So a lot of your focus today is on, you know, our built environment and

how it impacts our mental, our physical or physiological health, um, and

also our happiness and well being.

And, you know, I understand that's a subject that you've been studying

and fascinated by for some time.

Anything you can share with us about that, that you're learning even

today, um, you know, after having studied it for quite some time.

Yeah.

You know, as you mentioned, I have practiced architecture for 30 years and

for the 30 years, and, um, I I'd say the first 10 years was, um, focused on finding

myself, finding my voice, finding what I can do, what I can bring to architecture.

The second 10 years, um, really was about, um, finding how I can explore

and make things better, um, for people.

And then this last 10 years, uh, I have been focusing on the impact

of building environment on people.

Um, think about, uh, uh, Vincent Churchill, um, said, we shape our

buildings, thereafter, they shape us.

Um, and I had sort of, uh, resonance with that, um, quote, uh, in a way that, um,

I had known that buildings impact people.

In some ways, um, and, um, for the last 10 years, I've been focusing on that impact,

finding out how buildings shape us.

Essentially, how, um, building environment, I can make a difference

in the way we live in the way we behave and ultimately in the way we are.

Um, we know now that, uh, we are spending more than 90 percent of our

lives within the built environment.

Just think about it.

If you age to be 100 years old, you have lived inside for 93 years of that.

Only 7 years or less than that, you've been outdoors.

But we, we did not evolve in this sort of situation.

for your attention.

Our biology has evolved over 3.

5 billion years.

I mean, we're not talking about just human.

We're talking about, you know, um, the biology itself has evolved over 3.

5 billion years.

In natural conditions, and now the last.

We can say just the last actually 140 years, because before that,

a lot of people were spending a lot of time outdoors, right?

For the last 140 years, since the 2nd industrial revolution and the invention

of electricity and electric light.

We have been spending more and more of our times indoor in the,

um, uh, developed world we are, I should say, industrialized world.

We are spending more and more of our times.

Indoors.

COVID was a great example.

You know, if you guys think about it, for example, if I ask you a

question, um, think about yesterday.

Yesterday was Thursday, right?

Um, how many hours did you spend outdoors?

Very few.

It was cold here for one reason.

Was it one hour?

30 wasn't

even

that 30 minutes.

How are you

there?

About 30 minutes.

I took my dog for a little walk and then it started freezing rain and

it was like time to go back inside.

So, so really this sort of environment has become our

de facto environment has become our natural environment now.

And, but my question and the question that I'm going after is that Is this enough?

Is this correct for our health, for our physiological health,

for our mental health, uh, and for our well being generally?

Uh, and, uh, more and more we are looking into it.

More and more we are finding that, uh, And when I say we, by the way, I'm

not talking about me in a royal sense.

I'm talking about bigger picture than me.

So, um, so, um, people are finding out that, uh, uh, we are this

environment is not really made.

For healthy and well, and well, being for health and well being.

So, so we, um, we are trying to find out ways to make it more.

Um, like the natural environment.

More in contact with the natural environment.

I'm not talking about, you know, when it's minus 40 degrees outside.

That's not the case.

You know, I've lived in Minneapolis, Minnesota.

So, I know those days, but I'm not thinking about ways that are

built environment could do the good things that it does for us.

These are the things that should be done.

So we get to talk about those a little later when we talk about,

of course, circadian rhythms.

For example, you know, you mentioned that maybe I should just

talk about it now, as I said, 3.

5 billion years ago.

Our biological rhythms have evolved with the availability

of sun, essentially, daylight.

Okay, what that means is that, imagine what we call circadian rhythms.

Is these natural rhythms that happen over 24 hours?

Okay, um, your hormonal rhythms, your behavioral rhythms, your, you know,

the way you get hungry, the way you get sleepy, the way all of these things happen

in a 24 hour cycle, you know, if you, for example, didn't have the alarm clock.

You would wake up at a certain time, and you would go to bed at a certain time.

These are all natural rhythms, and they are made essentially to, um, for us to

survive in the natural environment, right?

If we didn't wake up early enough, we would be food for

the next predator, right?

So we had to, in anticipation of day, we had to wake up, we would

be hungry to eat, and then we would You know, move through our day.

So, um, our rhythms now are based on this central clock, and then

billions of clocks inside our body, you know, easily said, every cell

in your body has a clock mechanism.

Okay, so often on day and night, whatever you want to call it,

simply said day and night, right?

Okay.

So, when some comes out.

Okay.

There's the signal that goes, light signal, that goes through the eye,

directly into the brain, and the brain gets this message that it is dead.

So there is a center in the brain that sends a message to other parts of the

body to say it's day, time to wake up.

You feel hungry because your body has to get enough energy for activation

and activity throughout the day.

You don't get hungry just because your stomach is empty.

So that at night then, when it gets dark, the lack of light signal.

Sends a message again to that center to the brain.

Imagine, let's call it central clock, right?

That central clock then goes back, sends a message to other parts

of the body to say, it's night.

Now we're going to do other things.

We're not going to be active.

Therefore, we are not hungry anymore.

Therefore, we don't have to grab that, you know, bag of potato chips.

We don't do this, right?

I do.

Is my clock broken?

That's exactly

what it is.

And I'm going to tell you why.

It is because of the light signal.

It is because of light signal.

It's not that you are broken inside.

It is that your environmental cue or clue Or signal is broken 140 years ago.

Um, the light bulbs were industrially available and for the

1st time, we got the light bread.

Right?

So we could, I mean, the electric bread.

So, now we could have light day and night before that.

Of course, we have gas lights.

You know about the history of this better than I do, but it wasn't disavailable.

Cities like New York and London and Paris became sort of day and night cities.

Now we didn't have to sleep anymore, right?

And the light signal was there to give the brain this mixed signal that you

don't need to sleep, you need to eat.

Because It's getting a day signal at night, thinking that has to

prepare the body for activity.

So that's why you reach for that bag of potato chips, not because

you're hungry, but because your brain is giving you a signal that

it is day and you need to be active.

Therefore, you're eating for activity in anticipation for

activity, not the activity itself.

And if you're not active and you're eating, what does that mean?

Means you'll gain weight, blah, blah, blah, blah.

We can talk about those a little later.

Um, but so this billions of clocks inside your body have to be synchronized

with the natural environment.

And with that central, um, cloth inside your brain in order for

you to be healthy, and if it is not there, you're not healthy.

Well, what does this have to do with architecture, you would ask?

I mean, okay, well, as I said, now we are living more than 90 percent of our

lives within the building environment.

Right?

So it is this light signal within this environment that

it is most important to this.

System and this system, by the way, disruption of this system can cause I

shouldn't say cause I have to stop myself.

Sometimes it is associated with many different.

Disorders and diseases from hypertension to

obesity to

type 2 diabetes to

cardiovascular diseases.

Disorders.

Uh, some neurodegenerative diseases, uh, depression, bipolar

disorder, and it goes on and on.

Even some types of cancer are associated with this.

We haven't found, um, causal, um, relationship yet.

But we know every time there are these diseases, There is the disruption in

the circadian system, circadian system also, um, includes the sleep, right?

Sleep is a very important part of this and light signals.

For example, if you wake up early and you have bright light, you go out,

let's say you get sunlight, right?

Early on, um, your, your system sets itself earlier.

That means you have a tendency to go to bed earlier.

Therefore, you would get enough sleep, but if you don't, and you get a light

signal at night, opposite, right, you are essentially sending your body into havoc.

You go to bed later.

You wake up later.

That means you have less sleep and less sleep itself is associated

with tons of other problems.

Right?

So what we have been looking at in architecture is that we are finding

out the light signals inside.

Right now, if I look up, I have about 500 lux, 300 lux to 500 lux inside my

office from early hours of the day.

To late night versus in nature, we have 100, 000 lots of light.

If it's a sunny day, 100, 000 lots of light.

And then at night we have 0.

I know the question for you to, um, you go, you guys go to, um.

Uh, moonwalk, sometimes you walk in the moon, moonlight, right?

How many lakhs of light do you think, um, you see your shadows almost there, right?

Yeah.

And how many lakhs of light do you think that moon has?

Two to three hundred.

Two to three hundred, what do you think, um, there?

It's not a test, you're not at least

I'm, I'm guessing one, one hundred.

Well, it has less than one lux.

You're talking half a lux of light.

In half a lux of light, your eyes are capable of seeing not only the

landscape, but also your shadow.

This is amazing, right?

So we have five types of photo sensors.

In your eye, right?

So imagine your eyes are 2 parts of your brain sitting outside your skull.

Okay.

And I say, why they are, you're calling them brain.

You know, it's not like your time.

Right?

So now, why is these are 2 parts of your brain essentially is

because you're talking about certain neurons that work here.

There are 5 times of neurons in your eyes.

These are photo receptors or photosensitive neurons.

Right?

And.

Four of these are working with vision, right?

You guys know about cones and rods, right?

Rods are sensitive to light, and, uh, send light and movement, essentially.

So they are really sensitive.

There are many of them, millions and millions of them, in your retina.

And then we have the, um, uh, cones, uh, which are like three different kinds.

You know, they're the color vision, essentially, right?

You see, uh, different colors with different parts of these.

Different categories of these, um, neurons.

And then we have, uh, about the year 2000, they found, uh, the scientists found this

other type, uh, a, a fixed type of, uh, uh, photo sensitive neurons in the retina.

And what those are, those are the ones that send the signal.

Um, essentially blue light works on.

Send a signal when they see the blue light, the bright blue light, they send

a signal to the center in the brain saying it's day, or that signal is gone.

It's night.

Right?

So this is where, um, we get those, um, light or timing signals, if you will.

Right?

But these neurons are a lot less sensitive to light.

than those neurons that we talked about.

As we said, you can go in half a lux of light and see where you're

going, but that's not the case.

And then it takes milliseconds.

If you turn your head, you will see something right away.

It takes milliseconds for these rods and cones to see and process something, right?

But for those other, um, photosensitive, uh, retinal ganglion cells, it's

It takes time, minutes to hours, actually, to register the light

and send the signal to the brain.

So, in our environment, we don't have enough light during the day, and

then we have too much light at night.

300, let's say, in the day, 300 at night.

That disrupts our system and disruption of the system, as I said, is, um,

connected to, uh, or associated with those, uh, um, disorders.

And those disorders, seven of those are actually leading cause of death.

So, as architects, we have to understand what the hell we're doing.

We can't just, you know, build pretty buildings anymore.

Pretty buildings are great for the brain.

Don't take me wrong.

But, that's

Well, it seems like one answer to this from a design standpoint

would be to, you know, have a building function as much as possible with

strictly with natural light from outside.

Um, and so that it flows in the same pattern as, as, you know, how we

originally flowed is, is that correct?

Or am I way off base here?

I think you are very correct.

Intuitively so, um, of course, um, there are complications, uh, today

we talk about, you know, um, and I talk about this all the time, um,

when I talk about human centric approach, I talk about the fact that

in architecture today, sustainability, carbon footprint, uh, energy use, uh,

You name it.

Resilience.

There are tons of sort of issues that we have to address, right?

And these are important issues.

When you talk about carbon, uh, footprint, reducing that impact, you're talking

about a very important issue in terms of, um, caring for our environment, right?

But our environment means nothing when you don't care of the main subject.

Main subjects being human health and well being.

I mean, if he, and that's why I say you are totally right.

But then, you know, um, I know of, um, my engineer, uh, friends that, and, uh,

architect friends that want to build buildings now that have no windows

because Hey, we don't want to lose energy, but hey, there is a price to be paid.

And, uh, this is a story I tell, um, uh, some friends, uh, sometimes, um, I, um,

was going to see, uh, a friend of mine who is an architect up North in Duluth.

Another friend calls.

And goes, hey, I want to show you this land up north.

Can I, um, can we go and see it?

He had a project.

I go, sure thing, but I'm going to see David.

Um, and, uh, I have this great relationship with David.

David is going to show me some of his work.

He's an architect.

He's a great architect in Minnesota.

Um, and, uh, I go, I have promised him I'm going to go up.

Uh, if you want to come up with me first, we go there and then we go through your.

He goes, sure, let's go.

So he's now coming to meet David for the first time, this friend of mine.

So we go to David's office, which is behind his house, attached to his house.

This is his old office in his old house.

Attached to his house, this beautiful room that has 180, well, three size

windows that go all around, right?

This is.

At Lake Superior, I gotta, you know, mention and, uh, sitting up on the hills.

So it has an expansive view, beautiful place, just gorgeous.

And this friend of mine sort of nudges me and says, uh, isn't David like,

uh, environmental kind of architect?

I go, yeah, why?

He goes, you know, isn't he losing all of that energy?

He goes, sure, he is.

He goes, but, but how is he, you know, thinking about this?

I said, why don't you ask him?

I know what, what David is going to say, but I go, why don't you ask him?

Sure.

So this friend goes, David, um, I, you know, I'm, I'm thinking that you're losing

a lot of energy here with these windows.

How, how do you rationalize this?

David, uh, stands up and goes, Come here to this friend.

And friend goes by and goes, Sit where I'm sitting.

This guy sits down and, uh, David goes, Look around.

He starts looking around and all of a sudden is taken by the view.

So starts going, Wow, this is amazing view.

He essentially forgets about all the questions he had already about the

sustainability and energy and all of that.

And David goes, I paid for this experience.

This is what I paid for, and I think it's worth.

So we have to understand what is the balance, where is the

balance, and what is important.

When you talk about Daylight, for example, and, uh, is that a valid way?

Yes, it is.

Absolutely.

Um, but then the complexity there is how do we rationalize the amount of

energy we lose and, uh, how do we, uh, rationalize the amount of heat

gain with the daylight and all of that and go on, um, further with that.

Um, today, you know, a lot of glass buildings, for example, have these,

um, um, exterior shadings on them, or with coatings on them, uh, some

of which have nothing to do, no understanding of this science that

we're talking about, because this is new science we're talking about, right?

And when the sun hits the top of the building, for example, shading

comes down, there is no light.

I mean, the building has, I mean, there's a lot of money that has been spent for

that building and the amount of light that comes in and the view and all of that.

And there comes down and goes nothing, right?

Instead of trying to understand, even the shading device as a

device that can enhance the light.

Reduce the heat game we have, and you were just into this.

I think it's, uh, instead of a smart, um, technology, we should

call it dumb technology, right?

This very, very stupid technology that says either close or open.

There's nothing in between.

Right?

Right.

So, um, yes, I think daylight is, um, they and daylight

strategies are extremely important.

Um, they were important before.

The advent of electricity, they must become important again, and

we can learn from the old pastors.

We can really learn from the old architecture that

we have totally forgotten.

So

yes.

Very interesting.

So, I mean, is this being taught much in architecture school or is architecture

school currently more about aesthetics and as you said, you know, energy

efficiency and things like that?

Unfortunately, that's the case.

I have to tell you this, uh, with a heavy heart, because I was just reading a book

about the science that I'm talking about, you know, circadian neuroscience, right?

And even in that book, Says that, uh, uh, even medical schools right

now are not teaching circadian neuroscience after 20 some years that

this thing has been taking great shape.

Now, it's, it has a lot longer history than that, but, you know,

uh, so, but I do think that we have a greater, greater responsibility

to people's health, because.

As I said, most people are living in environments that we design and build,

and I'm not just talking about architects.

I'm talking about architects, builders, developers, decision

makers, you know, goes on.

Right?

But architects also is that our responsibility to people's health

is larger than, uh, you know.

A physician or, uh, a, uh, a, uh, nurse, because they see people when

the people are, you know, unhealthy,

right?

We, we put people into these environments when they are

healthy and making them unhealthy.

So, so, yes, I think we have responsibility to learn to teach.

And to, um, bring this, uh, to more people all around, uh, whether they're, you

know, developers, as I said, or builders, um, I'm giving talks to Everybody, I

mean, I'm, I'm talking to electricians next month just to not only architecture

students here and there, but to electricians, because I think they need to

understand what they put up and how they can help their clients to understand that.

There would be a control here if you needed, which would make you healthier.

I know one of our previous guests here on the show talked about,

he was a lighting specialist, and I actually didn't host that show.

But, you know, he talked about blue light and the impact on health.

Ways to adjust that.

Um, very interesting.

So I want to kind of skip ahead because, um, you have taken this one

step further and invented and developed something called circadian eyewear,

which I checked out your website.

Very cool stuff.

Looks like something Bona would be wearing.

Um, but yeah, eyewear and, you know, the impact of that and how

people can learn more about it.

Yeah, I'll tell you, um, this originally this

has a very personal story for me.

Also, um, we, um, my partner and I, uh.

Became aware of, uh, certain research that was done on light

and its impact on bipolar disorder.

Now, this is before my involvement in circadian neuroscience and, you

know, its relation to architecture.

We became aware of this hypothesis that said, uh, if bipolar people,

um, have 14 hours of dark, You're talking about absolute darkness, right?

Um, it could impact their manic period and sort of level it off in a way that

they would not have a really large swing.

And the lesser that swing becomes, the more stable, uh, the patient becomes.

My personal end of it is that, um, my best Friend, um, committed suicide

because he was, uh, suffering from manic depression for a long time.

And he was the best, um, You know, a guy you could be with and meet and, uh, have

as a friend, um, he was a brother to me, but, um, he never, I mean, when he went

to that depressed mood, you, you couldn't get him out, you couldn't get him out.

And, uh, so in any case, um, I was very, uh, amazed that

these, this, uh, total darkness.

Had worked, and then, and then a, uh, a scientist from, um, uh, Seattle area

had come up with the idea if the total darkness works, but because it's not

practical to put someone in darkness for 14 hours a day, 24 hours, um, why

would, why don't we use something that is called virtual, virtual darkness?

And virtual darkness for him were these, you know, virtual darkness,

um, and glasses and what they are, essentially, they are these filters

that would reduce the amount of light that, you know, gets to your eye

also filter all the blue out of it.

Okay, so, um, you're not getting that day signal anymore.

Right?

Remember, we were talking about at night when you get the bright light,

you know, 300 lux of light in your eye, you know, your brain kind of goes into

the day signal and makes you hungry.

Uh, and reaching for that, you know, food and, um, potato chips or whatever.

This glasses actually showed in some of the, uh, experiments that, uh, really

helped balance that manic and depressive, um, sort of mode so much that they

became more even and therefore less.

sort of, uh, devastating for people.

And, uh, so we decided, uh, to get some of these just to

see if they can help us sleep.

And then we found out, um, through my sort of research and other research that

all researchers use these, uh, in their, uh, studies for sleep and sleep, um,

stress and, all sorts of other things.

Because What happens is that if you wear these, uh, three hours, um, before

sleep, um, does a few things for you.

Number one, because it blocks the amount of light and then the blue

light that goes into your eyes.

It gives your, um, center, your, uh, central clock the

message that it is night.

Therefore, melatonin kicks in a little earlier and you have a

tendency to go to sleep earlier.

At, you know, the time that you should be sleeping, right, rather

than having to stay up with, you know, and most of us are using some device.

Now, most of these devices are, even when they take the blue out,

they are bright enough to still send a message to the brain.

So, with the glasses, I actually had 1 of them here.

I want to show you, um, so with the glass, um, with the glasses, um,

you do reduce that, um, amount of light and then cut the blue out.

Therefore, your brain gets the message that this is nice.

And, uh, sort of right after about a couple of days, you'd be sleeping better.

And this is one of them, actually, um, just one of the models.

So after, after half an hour.

I would have that signal right?

That it is night now.

Uh, and I don't want to have it right now.

Of course.

Um, you would not wear them.

You would not wear them as a, you know, sport glass.

You would not wear them as a sunglass, but you would wear them as You

know, night class, um, which then you can watch TV or, you know, go

through your life before you sleep.

It's best if you could put your, you know, tablet away, you know, at least an

hour or 2 before sleep, but still this would help and we looked into the market.

We could not find anything of quality and we decided, hey, maybe we can

design something and make it of quality.

And, uh, sell it for okay price.

And, uh, that's what we have been doing last, um, it's been a long time now.

Well, I know when I was on the website, I was looking

at it and thinking, you know, first of all, they're, they're very

striking and cool in their design.

I thought, oh, these are going to be really expensive.

Um, and I pulled up and they really aren't.

No, no, we have tried to, um, you know, sort of, uh, strike

a balance between and, uh, and, uh, uh, design and, uh, materiality because.

Uh, what we found with, um, some cheap stuff that are extremely cheap, I, I

mean, I've bought, uh, some of these, um, by the way, uh, the, uh, glasses

that we are making are, uh, classified as medical device, um, not many of these

are, uh, in the market, um, and that is a very important designation, meaning that

this has been tested to be, uh, Blocking the amount that you're talking about.

So in any case, um, no, we are trying to keep them, um, affordable.

So what we, we will have your information in the show notes and

we'll have you repeat it again later on, but, uh, what is the website for folks,

uh, that might be interested in this?

The

website is, uh, of course, www, um, it's a secure

website, uh, circadian eyewear.

com and, uh, the order can be done through.

So I have to ask you, I mean, I guess I have to remove my

normal eyewear in order to wear these.

Is that correct?

We have one that covers your eyewear, depending

on how big your eyewear is.

There is one, you know, you remember those, uh, I don't

have one here right now.

Remember those over sunglasses we used to have?

There's that type, you have that type also.

So that you can wear them over your glasses.

I mean, those are important for me also.

I have to wear my glasses all the time, so.

I wear those.

Yeah,

I just think this is all fascinating.

And I kind of imagine, you know, I think about, um, you know, the

master control that light really should have on our circadian rhythm.

I, I think about an orchestra and I think about the head violinists, they

hold up their violin and they play.

Uh, you know, they, what is that thing they use to play a fiddle stick?

They, they, Oh, their bow.

They use their bow and pull it across the violin to start things off.

And, uh, I think of that as, as how this light should work.

So let's talk a little bit about your building design.

Um, You know, let's imagine that someone just went through a

building that you had designed.

Um, what are some of the words they might use to describe that?

Or what are some of the things they might notice different about

buildings that you've worked on?

The words that I like to associate with buildings

would be probably delight and joy.

But out of words, I think any built environment.

Any building that works for us should be almost invisible, if you imagine it.

It's sort of the thing that, um, makes you feel a certain

way, but you don't know why.

Right.

Um, I recall, um, when I was in Europe, I don't know.

Maybe this is a question for you when you guys enter fantastic church

healing that you get.

It's not describable, is it?

That's a good point.

Because you really are experiencing,

experiencing it with your body.

It's the whole thing that impacts you.

And we call this, um, uh, embodied experience, if you will, means you are

experiencing it with all your being.

Right?

You don't, I mean, there are spaces that you go to, they

have an immediate impact on you.

But you don't know what, why.

This is what I want to produce.

I want to produce places, um, that would make people, I mean,

if, if, if there are hospitals.

Let's just talk about different types, right?

I want to produce hospitals that heal people faster.

I want to produce classrooms that make kids smarter.

I want to make, you know, workplaces that help people focus more.

And stay focused.

I want to produce, um, again, uh, workplaces that you look forward

to go to work, you know, and that's very hard to do, isn't it?

And when you come out of it, you feel energetic enough.

To still do your hike or do your biking or whatever you want to do.

I have been thinking about also writing a user manual,

if you will, for architecture.

This hasn't been done, by the way.

It's weird that hasn't, but it hasn't been done.

I'll tell you this from experience.

That we don't have a user manual for architecture.

We have what we call a specification.

Every, every, um, building we do, you guys know this.

Sure.

We put together a book like this.

You know, every person, every contractor and subcontractor has to go

through that, exactly do what it is.

But we never write a user manual for architecture.

You know, if you buy a car, you get a user manual.

Don't you?

Absolutely.

Right.

Yeah.

But where's the user manual for?

I want to write that.

I want to write, uh, tell people that you don't need to spend 90 some

percent of your life inside buildings.

Right.

This is important.

We don't need to do that.

Um, we don't need to schedule, for example, at a, um, educational event.

We don't need to schedule, uh, classrooms for, uh, adolescents at seven in the

morning, for God's sakes, eight in the morning, you know, because adolescents

don't wake up till 10 in the morning.

What are we doing?

They're not going to learn anything.

So why are we bringing them to school that early?

Versus, hey, you come in at 10, perform till 6, and then go home.

If you want them to be there, you know, 8 hours or whatever 8

hours.

All right.

Yeah.

So, so we, but we don't think that way right now.

We don't have a sort of users manual for architecture and architectural types.

And, uh, so I'm, I'm, I'm working on that.

That would be a huge advancement, you're right.

It's something no one ever thinks of.

That's, that's cool stuff.

So, I'm curious.

Do you have any words of advice for folks out there who might be interested

in architecture as a career choice?

Um, any thoughts to share with them?

Be passionate and curious.

Two things.

Very important.

Being curious is most important.

If you're not curious Yeah, I mean, anything we do, we have to have

curiosity, um, you know, whether we are going to be an architect or

scientist or builder or whatever.

If we don't have that curiosity, we are just going through emotions.

And going through motions is not the best thing for somebody that is

going to do something very complex and really, um, hard to do, right?

Um, especially in terms of money, you're not going to make a lot of money.

If you want to make money, you know, you need to go somewhere else, right?

But if you, um, thinking about, I mean, I'm not saying there is

no money in it, that's not true.

But, um, you know, that's not the major deal.

You want to be an architect.

Yeah.

Um, you need to sort of be curious and passionate about what you do

and you need to hit, um, those sources that you are interested in early on.

I myself am a late person and I say this, you know, we were talking today.

You are a lark.

I said, uh, that means wake up early.

I, um, I am a lark now, but there used to be a, an owl, um, meaning I, you know,

used to go to bed late, wake up late.

Everything late.

As a result, I think I've done everything in my life late.

I went to school late.

I went to college late.

You know, I, I have arrived at this thing late and I say late.

I don't mean late as a bad thing late in a way that.

I've sort of given myself time to ponder and arrive at something.

And I think that, um, young people need to do that.

And if they decide, when they decide, and if they decide on architecture,

they need to be curious and passionate.

I think that's very, Noble and great advice for folks.

You know, I, I think about an architect and they could spend their entire

career just writing these giant spec books and, you know, just doing that.

But yet, when you add the, uh, as you said, curiosity to things, and that brings

in creativity, um, brings in new ideas.

It really changes things and allows them to be someone that can, uh, change the

The world changed the world for wherever they design for and, and, uh, change,

uh, even the idea of architecture.

So cool stuff.

Well, this has been great, uh, Ali, and we'll have to schedule a different time,

uh, additional time together as well.

Uh, cause I know there's a lot of other places we could go, but, um, we

are close to wrapping up what we kind of call the business end of things.

Is there anything that we haven't covered today that you'd like to include?

No, actually, I'm thinking about it.

We've been talking about so many things, and I think some of these things, as

you said, need a little bit of depth.

Um, but, um, we did fine today.

I think with the time we have, uh I've

enjoyed it and it's been very informative.

I know our listeners are going to enjoy it as well.

Well, one of the things that we do here on the show before we close out is we ask our

guests if they're willing to participate in something we call rapid fire questions.

So Ali, this will be seven questions.

They may be a little silly.

Some are serious.

Um, All you have to do is give us your response and our audience

needs to understand, you have no idea, we're about to ask, are you

up to the challenge of RapidFire?

Let's do it.

Okay, well we will, you want to ask the first question

Ryan and then we'll alternate?

I would love to.

Question number one, can you tell us about a product, maybe something that's

improved your health, maybe not, but just a new product or service that

you've discovered recently that's kind of been a game changer in your life?

You know there's an app called Circadian Rhythms actually.

Um, which is put together by a scientist in, uh, California, Salk Institute.

Uh, I recommend, uh, and it's part of the ongoing research.

Uh, I recommend, uh, that for anybody.

Uh, it takes a little bit of, um, sort of attention daily, but it does give

you a really good, um, feedback on your, um, ongoing health issues, or, um, I

mean, for example, I use it very fast.

I use it for, um, what I call the restricted feeding, um, time, um,

I, I begin with, with, uh, Um, My first meal at noon, and then finish

my last meal at 6 o'clock, and that's the time I eat after that.

I don't eat before that.

I don't eat and I get some other things to help me.

For example, the glasses when I put the glasses on at about,

you know, 8, 9 o'clock at night.

That means after that, I don't feel hungry because melatonin

has this satiating sort of deal.

That's, yeah, that's the app.

So what was the name of the app again?

I'm sorry.

Circadian Rhythms.

We'll put that in the show notes also.

Okay, next question.

Who has been your favorite teacher over the years and

what do you remember them for?

Oh, my most favorite teacher was Todd Rhodes from the very first

year I was at the architecture school.

I was this lost student so much.

Um, sort of, uh, thinking, uh, about everything and, uh, at

the same time, really lost.

And he was a young, uh, uh, architect and, uh, he came in, it

was his first semester of teaching.

But he gave me such a great, uh, sort of set of questions, and he became such a

great, Sounding board and a, uh, and a, um, resource that I thought, uh, well,

I've never had a teacher like this.

And I would go back to him.

I would go back to him all the way till the end of my, um, studies back then.

So he was the best teacher I've ever had.

Very neat.

Next question.

Do you have a funny childhood memory that you can share with us?

Funny.

I don't know.

Funny.

Maybe.

Well, I don't know.

Um, let's see.

Well, um, the memory that I recall a lot is that my mom would be hollering,

uh, for me to go to get lunch.

And I was busy doing something.

Um, and I would say I'm coming, but I would never get there till she would

come and get me going, you know,

for

lunch now.

So, um, like, uh, one of the things that I would be doing was, uh, to

actually sit by these tiny ants.

Nests and would give them like flies or something and then watch him break

it apart to take him down the hole.

So that's, that was one of the big things I was doing that I couldn't have lunch.

So

that's interesting.

So you've always been kind of fascinated by detail and it's interesting.

It's, uh, okay.

Next question.

Um, and, and I don't know, maybe you don't eat sushi, but if you do eat

sushi, what is your favorite sushi roll?

Oh, it must be an Aggie.

I love when I, yeah, it's just, uh, I think it's the best.

That's that's the one that I go to.

You are the second person we asked that question to,

or they came back with an argument.

That's my best.

I have no idea what that is.

I'm not a sushi fan.

It's, it's eel.

Yeah.

It's a freshwater eel.

They prepared in a very special way.

There's nothing that I can make at home.

Um, so that's, yeah,

I don't, I don't think I'm going to try that.

Maybe one day.

I don't know.

All right.

Next question.

This is one of my favorites.

Uh, imagine you're trying to survive a zombie apocalypse.

What's one person that you want to choose to be on your team?

Oh, gotta be Arnold.

Arnold Schwarzenegger.

Yeah, of course.

There you go.

That would come to bite me too.

Okay, next to last question.

What would you like to be remembered for at the end of your days?

And this could be career or personal or whatever.

I think it's a personal thing.

I, um, I seriously want to.

Be known for that guy that would smile and say hi.

That's it.

I love that.

It's funny.

I went to a college And big thing on our campus was small campus.

You always smiled and said hi to everybody And uh, even here in the states after

I came out of college I carried that on out into the world and I got some

awfully strange looks sometimes it just Was was really foreign to people but

I have a similar story.

I um, I after 12 years You I went back to Iran, and I landed in an

airport, international airport, and I was going through the line.

And so, um, as I got in front of the guy and put my password there, I smiled

and, you know, And the guy looked at me like, what the, are you smiling?

Like right away, I got it.

I go, Oh shit.

This is not the place to be doing that.

That's funny.

Um, final question.

What's something that you like to do in your spare time?

Oh, fly fishing for sure.

Oh, really?

Um, I, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I fly fish.

Um, as soon as I get a chance, I'm up the mountains.

Somewhere, you know, take like four hours of hike up where nobody is and I

fly fish for I mean here because we have something, you know, summertime here.

We have light till about 2 in the morning.

Right?

So, um, I get up there.

I'm fishing till about 12 12 o'clock at night and then start coming down.

So.

Um, I

have had an urge to fly fish and learn how to fly

fish for like the last three years and I just haven't done it yet.

Yeah, I'm starting now.

It's just the best.

I, it is really the best gift you give yourself because, um, when

I go, um, I mean, it's weird.

It doesn't matter how it is, what kind of stress, what kind of.

You know, um, thing it is there, you go up there, you're one with the

nature and nature is one with you.

It's just like, and then fly fishing is, um, to me, and I do different types of fly

fishing, you know, from trout to big fish.

And, um, the thing is that you, you know, you make your own things.

That's part of it too.

Your own flies and then you drop this thing in and when you have

that connection, it's just like you are connected with nature.

I swear.

It's just, it's not just the fish, you know, um, struggling.

It's the whole lake or whole river that is attached to you.

It's a very different thing.

And I think you described that so well.

I think that's what has drawn me to it is the idea of making your own flies and just

the, the, I know there's an experience there that I want to experience,

but I just haven't done it yet.

Yeah.

If you need some, um, some, uh, tips.

Just let me know.

I've been doing it for a while.

All right.

Awesome.

Ryan, you and I haven't done many road trips together, but maybe one

to Norway together is in our future.

That would be cool.

I have to tell you, um, uh, you know, I know you guys

are, um, you know, from Ohio, right?

Yep.

So, so, so, The landscape here on the West Coast of Eastern

Norway is just so amazing, so amazing.

You have never seen anything like it.

And, by the way, um, If you come to Bergen, you're welcome

to stay with us and have fun.

So I'll take you for life.

Maybe we'll make that happen.

That would be awesome.

I might have to hold you to that one.

Absolutely.

You're more than welcome.

Well, this, this has been great.

Uh, thank you, Ali.

Um, for folks who want to get in touch with you, uh, what are some of

the best ways for them to do that?

Well, um, you have, you've got in touch with

me also through, um, LinkedIn.

Right?

Right.

LinkedIn is a

very good platform there.

I have a newsletter there now that has good followings.

Um, and, uh, that's a good one.

Then I have, uh, another, uh, company of mine called, uh, letting,

which stands for laboratory for environments, architecture and design.

Which was established in Minneapolis, Minnesota.

Now it's in Norway as well.

Uh, so that would be the second one.

But those are, you know, those are the ways to contact.

And of course, check out circadian eyewear.

com.

That's pretty cool.

Thank you.

Well, this has been fantastic.

I am pleased to report to our audience that we all met the challenge and

came up with our challenge words.

In fact, uh, Ali was an overachiever.

He used his challenge word a number of times.

Um, Ali, your word was actually words.

Potato chips.

Potato chips.

And you worked it in well, Ryan, you got yours in there as well.

You had health right there at the end.

And I, I kind of worked mine in kind of a, uh, non, what shall I say?

A typical way.

Uh, I have the word fiddle sticks, which I could have just said, Oh, fiddle

sticks, but I didn't want to do that.

So I, I worked it in a little differently there.

I was, I was impressed because, uh, you talked about something

that I wanted to talk about, you know, the metaphor that you use for

orchestra, that's just right on,

really interesting stuff.

Well, thank you again, Ali, for joining us.

This has been a real pleasure.

Um, we encourage people to, to reach out and touch base with Ali, a great guy.

He was very easy for me to connect with on LinkedIn.

Um, and I want to thank our audience for tuning into this very

special episode of construction.

Disruption with Ali Heshmati, um, senior architect living in Norway at this time.

Please watch for future episodes of our podcast.

We always have great guests.

Don't forget to leave a review or whatever you can do on Apple podcasts or YouTube.

Um, until the next time we're together, keep on challenging, keep

on disrupting, keep on being curious as, as our friend says, um, look

for better ways of doing things.

Um, don't forget along the way to smile and say, hi, have a positive impact on So

in the meanwhile, um, we'll see you on the next episode of Construction Disruption.

God bless and take care.

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