PJ Ellis (00:00)
So, so Tom, how are you, mate?
Tom Clarke-Forrest (00:01)
Yeah, very well, thank you. Good to be here, how are you?
PJ Ellis (00:03)
I'm very well, I like your headset, mate. Maybe we should wear those in future. I think they're pretty cool.
Andy Dawson (00:08)
Yeah, no, it's good. ⁓
PJ Ellis (00:12)
Yeah,
he's banging on about these T-shirts. Tommy thinks I'm the wit and he's the grit. I don't know whether that's a compliment or not. I'm not too sure to be fair. thanks, mate. Again, that's probably because it's a bad thing. Yeah. Tom, welcome to the podcast, mate. Thank you so much for joining us. Episode two, I mean, what a privilege for you,
Tom Clarke-Forrest (00:20)
Sounds the right way around, yeah.
I'm on it, thank you very much. Why wasn't I number one?
Andy Dawson (00:32)
We're well dressed.
PJ Ellis (00:32)
No.
Yeah, well, yeah, you could only do 11. So, you know, there we go, mate. Yeah, we had Tracy Westall as episode one. Once you listen to that podcast, you'll realize. But no, thanks for joining us, mate. We really appreciate it. Do us the honour, please, Tom, of telling people a little bit more about Tom Clarke- Forrest.
Tom Clarke-Forrest (00:48)
Yeah, sure. Yeah. So I suppose professionally, I'm the founder and CEO of Sport 4 Life UK, which is a West Midlands based charity that supports over 4000 young people each year. And we deliver sports themed personal development programmes, combining structured sport, accredited qualifications and mentoring to support young people towards better futures. And I suppose the context there with what we might speak about today is
72 % of our young people transform their key life skills and 82 % of our young people improve their mental health and wellbeing. Topics I know we'll get stuck into. And then yeah, personally, I'm a big sport fan, big sport person anyway. I've got two boys, aged 10 and 11. So I guess I've in many ways got some firsthand experience of seeing kids and young people growing up in that digital and AI driven world.
And I suppose I'm living through that challenge of trying to develop some of those key skills, things I know we'll get stuck into.
PJ Ellis (01:46)
Talking of challenges, are you your boys Baggies fans?
Andy Dawson (01:46)
song.
Tom Clarke-Forrest (01:49)
My eldest is, yeah, but by default because he has to be. Although we were at a football tournament the other week and he bought a Man City top which was disgraceful and so I haven't quite forgiven him 4 that. My youngest doesn't really like football so occasionally he does tell people he supports Wolves just to annoy me.
PJ Ellis (01:52)
There we go.
Andy Dawson (02:07)
Tom, can I ask you a question? So what was it that inspired you to set this up?
PJ Ellis (02:09)
That's not good, mate.
Tom Clarke-Forrest (02:14)
Yeah, so primarily my key and core passions. I've got a huge passion 4 sport, played a lot when I was growing up and that always resonated with me. Yes, sport and playing in part of a team was helping my mental health and well-being, my physical health, but actually it was the key life skills that I felt playing in part of a team really gave me, you know, that teamwork, communication, respect, winning, losing. I was playing a bit of
as part of the West Brom setup initially, so a lot of losing in there. But yeah, just those core life skills that I resonated with, wanted to kind of run my own thing with a bit of a social element to it, Birmingham-born and bred as well. So that combination of things after I'd finished uni just got something started called Sport 4 Life. And we've since been on an incredible 19-year journey that's evolved into something quite different from when we started.
Andy Dawson (03:07)
testing's that journey been? Because my current business is about 17 years since 2008. We've seen many ups and downs. What's that journey been like 4 you?
Tom Clarke-Forrest (03:15)
Yes, similar, lots of ups and downs, amazing rewards, a lot of challenges as well. So yeah, quite similar. think being a founder, and yeah, you all know this, Andy, as well, that comes with so many perks and is such an honour in many ways, but also it does come with challenges, that kind of emotional attachment you have to the organization as well.
PJ Ellis (03:35)
about that emotional attachment and those challenges, those ups and downs. For those that can't see this video or won't see this video, there are some young people in inverted commas literally on the wall behind you. they your daily inspiration? know, those are the, and can I just say this? What is young people, Tom, what age group are we talking about?
Tom Clarke-Forrest (03:47)
Yeah, yeah.
Yes, so
we work with 11 to 29 year olds. That is slightly split between a cohort 11 to 18 that are still in education but need some extra support, but also those aged 18 to 29 who are out of work and need that key support and intervention to get back into the world of work.
But yeah, in answer to your first question, 4 all of us here, yeah, that is our inspiration. It's our North Star is changing the lives of young people. And whilst we do need to operate like a business and have proper structures and all that stuff, that we're mission led and we're values led. so having young people at the heart of everything we do is everyone's, it is what gets everyone up in the morning 4 sure.
Andy Dawson (04:39)
There's little equation that we use in the leadership space here at Curium It's one of my colleagues Emma uses a lot. It was developed 30, 40, 50 years ago. And it's motivation multiplied by ability multiplied by opportunity equals performance. And always the most important part of that equation, which why I'm really interested in talking to you today, is around creating the opportunity 4 people. So people might have ability.
Tom Clarke-Forrest (05:04)
Yeah.
Andy Dawson (05:06)
They might have varying levels of motivation, but if you can create that opportunity 4 someone, you give them the best possible opportunity to thrive. Just how does that resonate and how do you go about doing it 4 these different cohorts and age groups?
Tom Clarke-Forrest (05:20)
Yeah, I really like that formula. I'll have to write that down, Andy. Yeah, I completely agree. We see that talent is everywhere, but opportunity isn't. And so that's certainly a bit of a mantra with our young people. In fact, only a few weeks ago, I supported in some mock interviews that we do here at Sport 4 Life. So that's where we're giving young people a real life experience of an interview.
and I conducted some of those and I was just blown away by some of these young people who were out of work, some of them long-term unemployed. They are really struggling but there's this huge amount of talent and this huge amount of willing to get stuck in and work and work hard but that opportunity isn't there. So yeah, I guess part of what we're doing is trying to give them that opportunity. As I said, our three core activities are structured sport and physical activity.
accredited qualifications and mentoring. I think the mentoring is providing role models, it's connecting young people with diverse mentors who share real-world experiences including setbacks and they have huge amount of lived experience of what our young people are facing as well. So I think that is definitely part of it. Qualifications obviously gives them something they're proud of, improves their kind of resilience and
key life skills as well. So yeah, it's what we're trying to do day in day out.
PJ Ellis (06:38)
What are those qualifications Tom?
Tom Clarke-Forrest (06:40)
Yeah, so it's a mixture. So we deliver functional skills, level two in maths and English to our kind of unemployed cohorts, which is a key area of need. But we also deliver sports leaders qualification, which is a leadership qualification that's using sport as the hook, which is available up to level two for our young people. But then also it's any other qualification that a young person wants according to their career aspirations. So.
Yes, we're a sport and that's the hook and the tool we're using, but actually it's across a plethora of different sectors that we can support them into.
PJ Ellis (07:13)
And are you seeing any sort of common sort of conversations, data points, whatever it might be that are coming out in your work that suggest that you're starting to understand better what the key human and life skills that are needed to set these kids up for success in the workplace
Tom Clarke-Forrest (07:29)
Absolutely, yeah. I don't think there's any kind of silver bullet in an answer there and it is quite nuanced and complex. However, from my perspective and from our perspective, there's a few different things. One is critical thinking, 4 sure. So evaluating information with nuance and exercising a healthy dose of skepticism, I think, is often needed. Not believing things.
on face value, understanding what research and evidence really means, critically evaluating online content amongst so much misinformation nowadays, and being curious. Yeah, I think critical thinking is a massive one. I mean, it's interesting, my youngest often comes back from school and they'll just say something like it's facts, know, Billy told me that he'd been to Mars on a rocket. Like, did you not think to...
question that at all. He just accepted that. Yeah, Yes, so critical thinking is a big one. think emotional intelligence as well, that EQ side, know, managing one's emotions, effectively responding to the emotions of others, which builds empathy. I think resilience, that capacity to bounce back from
PJ Ellis (08:20)
You might have You might have done mate, never know nowadays.
Andy Dawson (08:31)
So yeah.
Tom Clarke-Forrest (08:42)
setbacks, persevering through challenges, et cetera. also, I think happiness is also a skill, like learning to be grateful for what you have, not always have that upward social comparison, being grounded in who you are and what your values are, not just what you've achieved or what your attainments are.
Andy Dawson (09:04)
There's a great quote I heard the other day. And it's all about, you know, are we good friends to ourselves? Do we trust ourselves? Would you take yourself out for a beer? You know, that type of thing. I think it's so important to have self-respect for you. And I guess, you know, really resonate with all the skills you're talking about there. We call them soft skills, don't they? It's a weird thing to call them soft skill because they're really hard to get the grips with.
Tom Clarke-Forrest (09:25)
Yeah.
Yes. Yeah.
Yeah.
Andy Dawson (09:30)
Especially
in the world we're in of AI and technology. My boys are 15 and 17 and they are well-versed on tech and chat GPT, but my worry for them is continually, how do they interact? How do they discover? How curious are they? So how do you, what sort of courses, experiences are you giving to these kids that are helping to develop those skills that you've
Tom Clarke-Forrest (09:43)
Yeah. Yeah.
Andy Dawson (09:54)
identified.
Tom Clarke-Forrest (09:54)
Yeah, good question. And yeah, by the way, do agree. does it a bit of a disservice calling it soft skills. We try and call it life skills, human skills, know, those really important un-Google-able skills we talk about. That's definitely not a word. ⁓
Andy Dawson (10:02)
Yeah, great.
Yes, yeah, I it. love that.
PJ Ellis (10:06)
Yeah man, yeah bang on.
Andy Dawson (10:09)
See you soon.
PJ Ellis (10:10)
It is mate, it is. I'm just writing that down as a strapline one second.
Tom Clarke-Forrest (10:12)
Yeah,
I think we'll always try and start with, know, why do some of those young people lack some of those skills to start with? And I think a few different things for us is we've talked about social media and, you know, I don't for one second think social media is inherently bad. I think the balance perhaps is a bit off with young people. And I think
when that balance is tilted in the wrong way, it can create an environment where mistakes are hidden. They see a lot of influences online and then they make the mistake of comparing their messy inner life, which we all have, with this kind of overly polished curated veneer, which is a bit of an off-target, with social comparison that's really gonna make us feel good. I think...
Andy Dawson (10:48)
Yeah.
Tom Clarke-Forrest (10:59)
A lot of that can lead to fear of failure, fear of being average, which we all are. 99 % of people are average, by definition. And I think that can hinder a bit of development of resilience. think some of the educational focus of traditional schooling often prioritizes factual recall over the cultivation of some of those human skills. And then...
Andy Dawson (11:18)
Yeah.
Tom Clarke-Forrest (11:21)
Lastly, those, the kind of unstructured exploration, I think, and I sometimes find this as a parent, and I think I get the balance wrong sometimes, is with an over-scheduled life and that kind of risk-averse culture, that limits the opportunities for young people to get outside, to problem-solve, to negotiate, to learn from experience. My two boys are only 18 months apart, so they're so close.
best friends and worst enemies, one of those. But actually some of their best learning, I find, is when they're outside, they're arguing, they're bored, and you just need to give them that space and time to negotiate and come up with stuff. So I think that's some of the why. And then what we're doing is some of that experiential learning, providing hands-on activities, group-based work.
getting outside, community projects. Sport and qualifications are one of, you know, I'm biased of course, but one of the most powerful tools to use to teach people those key life skills. And I mentioned the kind of role models and the mentoring that we adopt as well. Mentoring is actually our core service. So connecting young people with those, you know, real role models that
share real world experiences with them and it's an arm around the shoulder. So yeah, think that's how we're trying to tackle some of those challenges that young people are rightfully facing.
Andy Dawson (12:38)
You kind of hit the nail on the head with me in terms of the curriculum. I was fortunate, I was quite good at just remembering stuff, whereas one of my boys isn't, you know, and therefore struggles to engage. And I think that's more more common. you know, there's all these wonderful charities, academic institutions in our fantastic city. Is there much collaboration to lobby about how to be
change things like curriculum, how we understand the future requirements of our kids to help them to thrive and does that happen?
Tom Clarke-Forrest (13:05)
Yes, it does. we have seen a few projects that have worked well in terms of lobbying. mean, we tend to wear a few different hats. We're in sport space or sport for development space where we're using sport as a tool for social good. But we're also in the youth space because we work with young people. And then we're also in the youth unemployment employability space, as well as West Midlands and a kind of beacon for the region as well. yeah, we definitely wear
different hats and as we've grown and evolved as an organization, part of my role has been to try and lobby for that change and be a voice for the sector. And so, yeah, we have done a lot in partnership, in collaboration, consortium-based or otherwise, where we do try and influence change and influence treasury investment into sport and young people. Sometimes as a delivery organization, that balance is really difficult because
we're set up to deliver, not to lobby for change, but sometimes we have to do that. But yeah, think collaboration-wise, actually, this has been a recent project for a couple of years, we now work with a network of other sport for development organizations in the region and beyond who are doing similar work, know, employability through sport. Typically, they're a bit smaller than us, and we're helping them with key capacity building support around governance strategy,
funding, impact, management, etc. so that they can do more and be more and ultimately reach more young people. So we're playing that enabling role as well as our bread and butter delivery role.
PJ Ellis (14:36)
You what you mentioned about sport for development Tom, really resonates with me because my challenge is not a challenge, but team sport, football, I think saved me. I had a lot of anxieties growing up, I still do. And some of my best friends, some of my biggest sort of like pieces in my life that involved me stepping out of my comfort zone and going into that changing room with other lads.
Tom Clarke-Forrest (14:49)
Yeah.
PJ Ellis (15:01)
and going to a footballing school that was, have been the most difficult but best and lovely experience in my life. And my kids don't play team sport at the moment. And I think they're massively missing out on that. I'm desperate for Minnie to get in front of the Lionesses last night and inspire, because she's actually a really good footballer. And I got so much out of that. And it's so powerful to listen to the things that you're doing for these young people.
Tom Clarke-Forrest (15:10)
Yeah.
PJ Ellis (15:24)
I know you mentioned this upward comparison thing and I hate that comparisons like the thief of all joy in my household. First two questions I suppose. One, where do you find these young people? How do they come into your system? And do you have any data to suggest why other than that upward comparison that they're lacking these skills that we want them to have?
Tom Clarke-Forrest (15:30)
Yes. ⁓
Yeah, so by the way, on your first point about team, yeah, completely agree. I think it's a big leveler. for me growing up, I was quite a shy, reserved kid, especially at secondary school. But when you're on a pitch or a court, like, it's a leveler. It doesn't matter. I think I tried to, you my confidence came out in a team when it perhaps didn't individually. So yeah, completely resonate with that. And actually,
sometimes the way in which we deliver a session intentionally can really help with some of those skills. for example, you could deliver a football session where you rotate who the captain is, where everyone has to applaud who scores, whether it's the opposition or not. And some of these just little subtle nuances in the way you deliver it can really help to drive through some of those key skills. And then, yeah, the other two things, how do we get young people
It's primarily referrals actually. So we have a number of partnerships with organizations who refer young people to us. Jobcentre Plus, housing associations, West Midlands Police, self-referral, might be parents referring, schools, colleges, et cetera. Sport is also used, not only is it used to drive through these life skills, it's used to recruit young people. So here's an open, free, accessible session. Come along, see if you enjoy it.
then you can get involved in something a bit more tangible. yeah, why some of these young people are lacking some of those skills? It's a very difficult question to give an absolute answer to, and I'm sure there's shades of grey, et cetera. But I think it is some of that, the pressure of that curated perfection that we talked about on social media. It is that educational focus.
the lack of that unstructured exploration and I think the slight lack of digital disconnection, at times as well. I think when they're digitally connected, young people may lack that sufficient depth in-person interactions that really helps communication and empathy. think COVID certainly is still having a ripple effect on a lot of the young people we work with.
PJ Ellis (17:34)
Yeah. Yeah.
Tom Clarke-Forrest (17:52)
And you know, a lot of these things aren't their fault and I think sometimes young people get a bit of bad press. Of course, everything's a spectrum, but a lot of the young people we work with, they have faced some unprecedented challenges and a lot of those things aren't their fault, but we're just trying to give them that opportunity as well as some structured programs and activities that we know can help develop those skills.
Andy Dawson (18:18)
Fantastic. I sat in a room recently with a friend of mine, bit older than we're talking about here, who's had some struggles himself. And he said that Jiu-Jitsu saved his life, quite literally. The world of sport, the camaraderie rolling around on a mat saved his life. And I do believe, exactly the same as you, sports are a real force for good. I think just to bring alive some of what you do, Tom,
don't want specifics, but have you got any examples in your mind of kids, young people who've been through the system who really stand out as how they've gone from low down, whatever that means to them to kind 10 out of 10 and really thriving?
Tom Clarke-Forrest (18:57)
Yeah, absolutely. There's always one case study or success story that we call it that always resonates with me, but it's actually from a number of years ago. But we get, you we get ones like this every single year. But it was a guy called Ben who was 28 and he'd been out of work for 10 years. He had a young kid, so long term unemployed. He had some alcohol related issues and just he was really rock bottom. But I think this one really resonates with me.
not because of necessarily the specific role he went into, but in terms of distance traveled. So we worked with him. He had a mentor. He had weekly mentoring sessions. He got a level two sports leaders qualification. We improved some of his key life skills. And then we did get him into retail where we got a full-time job. And it was an entry level role. So, you know, I'm not saying it's kind of the upper echelons of any company, but in terms of distance traveled.
it was huge from where he was. He was spiraling out of control. yeah, only recently, and we do this every year, we've actually been collating some of the quotes from some of our young people, some of those success stories. And I did see one young person said, Sport 4 life isn't just changing lives, it's saving lives.
what you just said, Andy. So yeah, it's amazing when we hear those kind of things. And of course, we can keep talking about stats like,
those 4,000 young people we work with each year, but actually it's those more hard-hitting individual stories that really resonate the most.
PJ Ellis (20:23)
I mean, you haven't got any courses for 46 year olds, have you? I mean, well, I'm 46 in August, 45 year old. Honestly, mate could tip my hat, doff my cap, whatever it might be to people like you all day long. It's what Birmingham's all about. Right, I think sometimes I'm conscious that we're talking about this divide, right? Somebody said, I think it was Andy, actually. I use this when I talk about wit and grit.
Tom Clarke-Forrest (20:28)
Okay, yeah, yeah.
PJ Ellis (20:46)
My challenge or worry is that my daughter goes into Let's use the legal analogy. The world of work as a paralegal, with all these nuances of that value framework, whatever it might be. And she wants to connect with the partners us old boys that are still going on the golf course. We are potentially better, if that's the right word, negotiating, looking people in the eye, having it out, or whatever it might be.
And sometimes that conversation can lean into the assumption that these kids are like, they haven't got the skills. So they're not as good with your experiences of these people that you work with. What skills do you think they have that are better than what we had as kids? Have you ever thought about it that way? Cause we always talk about, when we were kids, we did this and that's the right way. But they're spectacular. These kids, they're brilliant. Aren't they? As you said, there's talent.
but there's no opportunity. is there anything in them that you're seeing that suggests they're better at it than we possibly were?
Tom Clarke-Forrest (21:43)
Yeah, definitely. I think these are things we're still learning some of this. So we're trying to get more data on it, be evidence led where we can, and get more feedback from young people. But I think a couple of things like digital tech, AI, for sure, that's their world more so than other generations. And so they bring key skills there. And that's coming from me. I'm not an IT tech digital person.
obviously use it, but I massively rely on others to help me with that. But I think, you know, their adaptability always strikes us as being quite strong and quite high. And I think that is a skill that is going to be hugely sought after in the future. You know, there will be a constant evolution and unpredictability in the world of work from now on, once the pace of change is so quick.
And I'm not an expert in that. I don't know what that will be, but I do believe jobs will continuously change and many roles will emerge that don't exist today. And therefore, those that are better at adapting and have those transferable key human skills will fare well.
PJ Ellis (22:51)
do think the world of work looks like then 4 these kids beyond, well now? We talk about jobs that don't exist. I mean, we've seen jobs created now in our lifetime that didn't exist at the, you know, what do think that looks like with all that sort of energy and experience that you're having around helping 4,000 kids every year?
Tom Clarke-Forrest (22:55)
Yeah.
Change it.
Yeah,
it's interesting. I was listening to one of your your other things around where you were talking about that Where is it where kind of AI and humans meet in the middle? and I think that that kind of human AI collaboration is interesting because AI will certainly automate many routine tasks But I think that will make the distinctly human skills like what we've been saying critical thinking creativity EQ More valuable than ever in that human AI
synergy. I think all this not soft skills, human life skills are really, important. As I said, I think the constant evolution of the job market and roles will exist that don't exist today. And then I think perhaps skills based hiring will be a bit higher on the agenda. So I think employers will increasingly prioritize those transferable human skills and learning agility over just
a specific title or specific degree like perhaps we do today.
Andy Dawson (24:03)
Yeah, I bang on agree with that. do a lot of change work with various kind of large corporations and that the human intelligence to balance the artificial intelligence is absolutely critical. ⁓ And as PJ and I always talk about is, you know, eventually you'll get a nil-nil draw where the AIs kind of cancel each other out and then it's all about how good this person versus that person with a kind of human side to determine the optimum result. This thing I'm really curious about.
Tom Clarke-Forrest (24:14)
Yeah, I love that.
Andy Dawson (24:30)
And I've got an assumption, I might be wrong about your mentors. I presume there's probably quite a decent mentor network. If they're voluntary or if they're not voluntary, what are the key skills you look for them? Because they obviously play a big part in support and guiding here. Just talk to me a bit about the mentoring side.
Tom Clarke-Forrest (24:47)
Yes, we do it. We have a number of full-time mentors and they each have a caseload of young people that they're working with. And I suppose, yeah, there's probably a bit of a dual answer to that. On the one hand, there is a kind of minimum standards in terms of qualification that we'd want from them, know, level three coaching and mentoring or IAG information, advice and guidance. Now that's something we can provide if they don't have it, but on the kind of formal training side, there is a bit of a minimum standard.
But actually, I think it's heavily about their lived experience, their relatability to young people. And actually, I learned this quite early on. So when we started Sport 4 Life, was like a lot of founders in the early days, I was doing a lot of the delivery as well, as well as IT and literally everything, yeah. But I think whilst I was working on the ground,
Andy Dawson (25:29)
Yeah. Yeah, everything.
Tom Clarke-Forrest (25:38)
with young people initially and delivering some of those sport sessions, what it was to start with. I quite quickly realized actually there are people who are better at working on the ground with young people than I am. So then I realized my role was to create a environment and a space where we can employ others who relate to young people in a way that just I can't do. And I just amazing at that.
role model arm around the shoulder relatability piece and that's key and all our young people say their relationship with their mentor is what makes the difference. They often say they're pulled from pillar to post with you know with job centres and this support and that and college and etc but actually their mentor with us is their one constant and they often become friends with them and things like that so yeah it's it's a vital part of our
model and our offering.
Andy Dawson (26:32)
We all need role models, mentors, coaches, don't we? I guess this might seem like a strange thing to say. I'll probably get edited out by Mr. PJ here. But the world we're going into, we're really optimistic. It can be optimistic or pessimistic for young people. Pessimistic because the world isn't equal and therefore there's always divides. We could also be optimistic and say, we're going into a world with this AI
transformation where there's no right answers. There's no textbook as to how you do this or how you work with that. So there's an opportunity to turn the page and kind of reinvent. And I kind of think about that through my kids and some of their friends is, yeah, it could be hard because jobs will disappear. But my word, you've got the opportunity to reinvent something, do things differently that we've never done before. And I think we've all got to.
bit of a role to actually encourage that as a bit of a mindset for what's coming through because it's definitely true I think.
Tom Clarke-Forrest (27:28)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I would agree with that. feel, you know, definitely if I was to lean onto one of those sides, it would be optimism. You know, we see the talent that young people have. We know that, like you say, it's a bit of a blank canvas in many ways. We take an asset-based approach to young people trying to see what they have, not what they don't have. And yes, you know,
it would be wrong to say there aren't any challenges and young people are doing absolutely everything perfectly. It does require an intentional effort how we help young people both from their perspective and our perspective and others perspectives, but they have so much talent and they are our future. yeah, whilst there are clearly going to be challenges in the job market going forwards and with AI and all the things we've discussed, yeah, we are.
we remain optimistic because of what we see young people achieving day in, day out.
PJ Ellis (28:22)
Love that mate, optimism goes straight at the top of my list of chapters that we've discussed today. Right, mentors, I mean, I was a mentor, I got more out of it than probably the mentor did to be fair, I bet they get so much out of the mentees, you the other sort of way of looking at things. Right, I'm gonna put you on the spot here, mate. Two young kids, right? What life lessons or skills have they taught you?
It's a big one, isn't it? You're CEO in the day, doing brilliant things with young people. I suppose let's start here. Is it easy to translate then that learning into your role as a dad with two young kids? I mean, how formal are those exercises that you give your kids? Do they have to go through the qualifications as well? Yeah, yeah.
Tom Clarke-Forrest (28:45)
Oof.
Yeah, I just take them to work with me, it's easier. ⁓
Yeah, it's definitely difficult and different. You you kind of get home and it's like you're trying to just switch off from one mode and go into another mode. I think, yeah, my kids are probably at that age where a lot of the digital stuff is just about to start coming. And so we're trying to...
PJ Ellis (29:27)
yeah, yeah.
Tom Clarke-Forrest (29:29)
resist in some ways on that. But I think, they probably teach me about, yeah, just a bit of digital detox actually and put the phone down, let's get outside in the garden and let's have a look at the worms and play a bit of football and get out there. yeah, we spend, it's interesting because every year, my brother lives in the Lake District, so we go up there quite a bit.
It's so nice to see them out of the kind of hustle and bustle in the countryside and they're slightly different people. But actually it's like they're just going back to basics and just going back to exploring outside, climbing a mountain. Don't get me wrong, they'll still want to watch something when we get back. But yeah, that's probably what they've taught me that you can still be a kid at times and you should never...
should never lose that.
PJ Ellis (30:17)
Love that, I saw my son playing literally, we went round to my brother-in-law's and it shocked me to the core, now this is the world that we live in, it's bizarre that my son was just throwing a tennis ball to his cousin back, forth, back and I watched them for a while, almost bewildered that they were having this sort of simple exchange that I know was either gonna be either a core memory, a very defining moment.
And it was quite emotional to be fair. And that's what teaches me, man. Every time I see that, it's difficult the world we live in, and it's difficult to be a dad, it's difficult to be a mom, all that sort of stuff. But it's the time, know, Andy leads with dad first, don't you, on your LinkedIn bio, How easy is that to live by that?
Tom Clarke-Forrest (30:44)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Andy Dawson (30:56)
Yeah,
Yeah, it's, it's easy. It's difficult at times, you know, to prioritize being a dad, you know, we're all busy, aren't we? But just just listening to what you're you're both saying now, think one thing that really helped me through COVID is we had some crappy cricket stumps, you know the spring ones. My youngest and I bowled thousands and thousands of overs at each other in the garden, lost hundreds of balls.
And it's my fondest memory of bonding with Ben because it was all just so human and kind of connected, you know, and we still do it. know, I struggled to get out of bed some mornings, but we still do that, you know, and we still lose the balls. costs, I mean, fortune, but that, you know, having that constant reminder, that trigger of a memory is really, really helpful to reinforce the message of needing to be more present for sure.
Tom Clarke-Forrest (31:25)
yeah.
PJ Ellis (31:48)
It's all they want, mate, it's all they want. I'm going through a time now where I'm looking back a lot, thinking of Mom I Lost Mom and all those memories aren't of, it was just the time I spent with dad and mom and stuff like that. It's so powerful, isn't it? We do get lost. We had a really good chat with another guest on the podcast, Tom, about this AI stuff, yeah.
Andy Dawson (32:02)
Yeah.
PJ Ellis (32:09)
Kids are almost outsourcing themselves, I suppose. There is a worry around all that sort of stuff. And you mentioned this AI, HI or AI, whatever it might be, synergy, right? And she said that AI will be dictated. We've got to treat AI as our kids. We've got to feed them the information. We've got to teach them the value framework. What do you think of that?
Tom Clarke-Forrest (32:20)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Hmm.
Yeah, it's like how you prime it, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, and we, so again, I'm coming from a place of ignorance, like I'm not great with tech, but one of our staff like our, is really good at AI and she's really helped me around, know, when we are trying to use it, you do have to prime it and you gear it for what it's then gonna say. So.
PJ Ellis (32:33)
Yeah.
Andy Dawson (32:41)
Thank
PJ Ellis (32:41)
Me
neither.
Tom Clarke-Forrest (32:56)
Yeah, definitely agree with that. And I think we're trying to lean into it, see it as a bit of a positive. think we don't want to rely on it entirely. It is a useful tool. It is useful with reports and making your work life a bit efficient at times. But you do always have to put it through that human filter to make sure it's correct. I mean, I did see something on an awards application.
I know what I mentioned who it was, where a young person had clearly used AI to do their award but then had forgot to remove at the top the bit where it said ChatGPT. And you're like, oof, you've got to proof-read it.
PJ Ellis (33:30)
my word.
Andy Dawson (33:32)
there.
PJ Ellis (33:35)
I mean, it's the world we live in and I think we do have to adopt and adapt. mean, the adaptability piece that kept coming out of your conversation, Tom, I've written here, I think that's amazing. To think that I wouldn't have thought the kids were as adaptable as you're telling me, which is great. That's lovely.
Tom Clarke-Forrest (33:35)
Okay, yeah, yeah,
Yeah.
Yeah.
PJ Ellis (33:52)
Does that lead into the resilience that we think they need? Because being adaptable, having that conversation, being able to talk to that paralegal and the partner within a space of two minutes, it's been adaptable, isn't it? ⁓ Right, this is pressure. This is pressure, We've spoken about optimism, seeing what people have rather than what they don't have. Adaptability, upward comparison, all this. It's been brilliant chat.
Tom Clarke-Forrest (34:02)
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah agreed
Yeah.
PJ Ellis (34:19)
Let's talk about the, you deal with 11 to 29 year olds. So the mean age there, I don't know, 20, so right. You've got 20 year old coming into your office, yeah? What's that one word of advice you'd say to that person that is about to go into that world of life, work, whatever it might be. What's that nugget? That's a tough one, I know, but you might not have it.
Tom Clarke-Forrest (34:23)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, no, you said one word, but it will be two words. For me, it's be curious. that's something I, you know, that's not just young people, it's staff, it's everyone. But I think if that is your starting point, I think so much comes from that. You know, if you're curious, seek to understand, be skeptical on things.
Andy Dawson (34:46)
Yes!
Tom Clarke-Forrest (35:01)
Try and understand what evidence means and what data is. Understand a different perspective to your own. Read up on something if you don't understand it. That fosters tolerance, critical thinking, empathy, all those kind of key life skills that we spoke about.
Andy Dawson (35:17)
Amen. I 100 % support that. And I think one of my lessons over many years of kind of doing this kind of business stuff is it's a real danger that people spend too much time looking internally, you know, looking at themselves, their own business and not enough time looking at what's going on around us. You know, exactly the same reason, because it's so easy to miss what's going on around us because it becomes so obsessed about the here and now.
PJ Ellis (35:41)
that. I'm reading Chimp Paradox at the moment. that, yeah, it sort of leans into that, thinking, looking at the human side of your brain and managing your chimp and all that. You're reading anything at the moment, Tom? Watch any decent sort of videos, TED Talks, whatever.
Tom Clarke-Forrest (35:44)
yeah, yeah, I've read that.
Andy Dawson (35:44)
Yeah.
Tom Clarke-Forrest (35:55)
By the way, I've read Chimp Paradox and there's actually a great ending.
PJ Ellis (35:57)
What's the ending? Is it good? Good ending?
Yeah, we can't come out. Is that?
Andy Dawson (36:02)
There's another book. There's another book after it. He's done a few, yeah, Steve Peters
Tom Clarke-Forrest (36:04)
Yeah.
Yeah,
there's actually one for kids called My Inner Chimp and it's trying to get them just to... It's the same concepts but just a bit simpler for young kids. I have read it with my eldest. My youngest won't read it, which is part of the problem. But we continue that battle. Yeah, One of my favorite TED Talks is...
from a guy called Dan Pallotta and it's called The Way We Think About Charity is Dead Wrong. working in the third sector in the charity, he tackles some pretty big things that I think are still a bit stubborn in society. And yeah, I'd recommend everyone give that a watch. It is one of the most watched TED talks. And he does a far better job than I could do in summarizing it now, so.
PJ Ellis (36:55)
Thank you, And on that one last question or ask, I suppose, from us is, do you know anyone else that will be as delightful, articulate, interesting as you that we can invite on this podcast?
Tom Clarke-Forrest (37:07)
You're too kind. I think if I'm combining things like business and sport and the West Midlands, I wouldn't say I'm like absolute best mates with them, but I have got to know Paul Faulkner a bit, know, ex-Nottingham Forest, Aston Villa, Chamber of Commerce.
was heavily involved in Sport Birmingham as well, the county sports partnership for the region. yeah, I think he'd be a great guest to invite on.
PJ Ellis (37:30)
Anybody else? anything else? You sure?
Tom Clarke-Forrest (37:32)
might have to get back
to you on that. PJ Ellis is an alright guest
PJ Ellis (37:35)
Mate to be fair, he's a good lad. He's a good lad to be fair.
I'll take it. I'll take it. Andy, any closing comments mucker before we let Tom go and.
Andy Dawson (37:42)
Yeah, it's been ace First off, thank you, Tom. I love the combination of creating opportunities, sport, behaviours, mindset, you know, looking after our next generations are going to look after us. The world isn't created equally. So I think responsibility falls on our shoulders to try and do something about that. So kind of hats, hats off to you and your team for making that step in the right direction.
Tom Clarke-Forrest (38:05)
Thanks very much. And yeah, I think, you that last point you made around team, you know, we've talked a lot about me and I know I'm the founder, but actually I couldn't achieve anything that we've done without the amazing team around me. yeah, hats off to the team as well. But yeah, thanks for the opportunity to be on here. It's been great. And yeah, appreciate it. PJ I know we've got to know each other a bit over the last few years. So yeah, appreciate that. And if anyone wants to find out more about Sport 4 Life, just don't hesitate to reach out.
PJ Ellis (38:31)
How do they reach out, mate?
Tom Clarke-Forrest (38:32)
Anyway they want, they can find me on LinkedIn. You can go to the website which is sportf4life.org.uk or get in touch with PJ if those methods don't work, which they will.
PJ Ellis (38:43)
Or go down to Hawthorns and see you down there, There we go. There we go. ⁓
Tom Clarke-Forrest (38:45)
Yeah, any match, East Stand That one, looks grumpy.
Andy Dawson (38:50)
This is the second Baggies guest we've had on the bounce. Just point that out. Tracy Westall.
Tom Clarke-Forrest (38:53)
yeah, who's the other one.
Okay.
PJ Ellis (38:56)
There's a baggies fan. She's an OBE mate. I can see you being a, you'll be an MBE OBE soon, mate. I'll tell you, you do so many brilliant things. And Andy, away from this, mate, I'd say go for a coffee with Tom. I think there's a lot of things that you two could do together. Cool. All right, Tom, have a lovely day, mate.
Andy Dawson (38:57)
You've found both of them. You've found both of them now.
Yeah, I'd love to.
Tom Clarke-Forrest (39:09)
Yeah, let's do that.
Yeah, you too, thanks guys.
Andy Dawson (39:12)
Well done, Tom. That was great. Thank you.