TWO

[00:00:00] Part TWO

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[00:00:00] Ross: Hi there and a very warm welcome to Season five,

[00:00:02] episode six

[00:00:03] Ross: of People's Soup. It's Ross McIntosh.

[00:00:06] Mike: it's so eye opening for people. it's a transformative process. And maybe I thought before doing the sessions, you know, is it gonna have the same impact on these high level, well experienced professionals that it did on me? And I delivered one session and I was like, wow, everybody is dealing with this CEOs, senior leaders.

[00:00:26] Mike: Everybody has this internal. Doubts and worries, and this negative self talk, and very few people have been taught that that's normal and that's okay. And that there's a way past it. So we're all walking around with it.

[00:00:37] Ross: Pays. This is the second part of my chat with Mike Jones. He's the founder and chief at Better Happy, who enable organizations to develop healthy, motivated, high performing managers who are safe from burnout.

[00:00:51] Ross: In this episode, Mike talks about the better, happy approach And we chat about topics that are very important to both of us, including our view that workplaces are optimally placed to make a meaningful impact on happiness and wellbeing, and that culture can be massively influenced by leadership role modeling.

[00:01:08] Ross: We also talk about the impact of Acton Mike and also why the ACT segments are the most rewarding part of the training he delivers. He truly is a man on a mission to make a difference.

[00:01:18] Ross: People Super is an award-winning podcast where we share evidence-based behavioral science in a way that's practical, accessible, and fun to help you Glo to work a bit more often. let's just scoot over to the news desk for reviews are in for part one of my chat with Mike On Instagram. Jim Lucas from Open Forward said, lovely interview. You too. I enjoyed learning about you, Mike. Great sounding outcomes from your training. Well done. And on LinkedIn, Michael Phillips said, really enjoyed it and have [00:02:00] now downloaded the art of happiness to read as well. Thanks Ross and Mike.

[00:02:04] Ross: Well, thank you to Michael and Jim and to everyone who listened, shared, rated, and reviewed Your support helps us reach more people with stuff that could be useful. So for now, get a brew on and have a listen to part two of my chat with Mike

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[00:02:22] Ross: So Mike, I really wanna dig into what you do at better happy your approach. And I'd love to start with your views on the importance of the workplace. Cause it's something you've, shared on social media, but also in our conversations. Just talk to me about that. Cause I think it really resonates and I think it's really important.

[00:02:39] Workplace is optimally placed

[00:02:39] Mike: I believe that Western develops societies such as our own, that the workplace is optimally placed to make a meaningful impact on the happiness levels of, our society. And that by so, businesses will be better. The economy will be better. The world will be a better place. And the reason for that is so many of the basic needs that we have for happiness are now really only found in the workplace.

[00:03:03] Mike: So historically, religion's been very popular amongst the masses. now. It's nowhere near as popular as it used to be. So where do people find their, joint goal or thing that they share with others? Where do they find that outside of the family? Well, it's the work, you know, that's really important to have a community that you share values with and that you share a kind of vision with, and that you are working together on something to, to move towards.

[00:03:26] Mike: That's really important. And without religion or hunter gatherer tribe, where do you find that? Where do you find that. Tribal desire to be with others and work towards something meaningful. And for many people, that's the workplace. Hence the reason a lot of LinkedIn data is now sharing that employees are, or potential employees are placing as much value on the values of a company and the mission of a company as they are the salary that the, the role it offers

[00:03:49] Ross: Yeah, I think it's so interesting the way you articulate this, because I think you're absolutely right. I think we used to have more of a sense of community and now people find that community. in the [00:04:00] workplace and perhaps don't invest as much energy or time outside the workplace thinking, oh, I need another community or a different community.

[00:04:07] Ross: Some people do they'll have hobbies or interests that, help them form community and bonds. but some their principal community will be the workplace. and that really aligns with me because I see that community in the workplace as an ideal place to, to share skills with adults that they, I can pretty damn well bet that they weren't taught when they were at school or in education that we know that can support them in their wellbeing, whether it's around their nutrition, whether it's around their, their posture.

[00:04:36] Ross: As you said before, or exercise, and particularly where, what I'm interested in their mental health.

[00:04:41] Mike: Yeah, because if you think about Maslow's hierarchy of needs, which most people have heard of, not everybody, but you can find it on Google and it, and that's always made sense to me that you humans have a, a hierarchy of things that they need. And if one, when, when one of them is fulfilled, they move to the next one.

[00:04:55] Mike: So at the bottom, we've got physiological needs, so we need air, water, shelter, and, regardless of where any of, us are at in life, We could be thinking about how to progress in our career, how to be a better parent, how to be healthier if we removed shelter, air, or any of those basic provisions that would very quickly become our top priority, everything else would be forgotten.

[00:05:14] Mike: and as you go higher up that pyramid, it goes from those kind of physiological and safety needs to community needs, belonging needs, and then it moves to esteem needs. So being the best you can be and then achieving what you can achieve with your life. And I think as a society, we've all moved higher up that pyramid.

[00:05:31] Mike: You know, most of us in the UK, not everybody, but most of us don't have to worry about money and being fed on a daily basis. I know that's possibly an interesting thing to discuss at the moment with, with pricing, but really in comparison to a hundred years ago, mass and employment and poverty was, was the norm in the UK.

[00:05:48] Mike: And now it's not. So even when things are bad, they're still way better than they used to be. So I think the workplace is optimally placed for that to help people figure out who they are, what they're good at belong, make the most of their [00:06:00] lives be, you know, make the maximum impact. But then the workplace is also not incentivized, but optimally placed, I would say again to try and help their employees with health because yes, that's gonna make them better employees, which is a positive, but if they don't help them with it, the chances are fairly high that they're gonna suffer with poor physical and or mental health.

[00:06:17] Mike: and that's gonna cost them more money than what preventing it would cost. So there's so many reasons that the business is the one that's kind of pressured and incentivized to do something about it. The school system doesn't have to do anything about it. The school system has to get people to pass their exams, whereas the business needs healthy people and it needs people that are performing at their best.

[00:06:34] Mike: So. It's the place to really do something about it.

[00:06:37] Ross: Absolutely couldn't agree more. And I'm just trying to remember a quote, so when you were talking about people in the workplace, both me and people I've worked alongside and organizations, I feel that sometimes we just settle. we end up in a job where we think I'm here, I'll stay here, but I have no real connection.

[00:06:56] Ross: I'm pretty miserable and counting the days before I can retire. And that could be years in advance. And it's almost like people check in their brains at, reception or their souls and they're disengaged and unhappy. And it's this Abraham Maslow quote that really came to mind when we, you were talking.

[00:07:15] Ross: And he said, the story of the human race is the story of men and women selling themselves short.

[00:07:20] Mike: Yeah, that's fascinating. Isn't it?

[00:07:22] Ross: And I think, I think there are people who are not reaching their potential, who might like to, some people might be perfectly happy with that choice to be disconnected and on autopilot at work. But some people might be seeking that meaning I would say.

[00:07:37] Mike: Yeah. there's certainly people that don't have any aspirations to get really high in their careers and make loads of money, but I don't think there's many people that are truly happy just going into work. 50% of their waking hours and just doing what's required of them to pay their bills.

[00:07:51] Mike: I think, again, back to hunter gatherers, you know, when we were hunter gatherers, we would've used our strengths daily in our tribes because that's naturally what would've come out of us and we would've [00:08:00] worked together. And that would've given us a sense of fulfillment and a sense of meaning that we've been able to use our unique talents to, contribute to the better of the, community.

[00:08:07] Mike: I think if you're not doing that in work, you're not fulfilling those evolutionary basic needs of being a fulfilled human being.

[00:08:15] Ross: Yeah, I think, I think you're right. And I think there might be some people who are prepared to do that at work, because they've got a big thing outside of work that is there is their passion. So they're kind of almost prepared to tolerate that workplace because their energy is, devoted elsewhere. Uh,

[00:08:32] Mike: Yeah. Yeah. I'd agree with that. I think it's dangerous to tell people all the time that you have to have a job that you are super passionate about and that it's gotta be the perfect job, because actually there's no such thing as the perfect job. And as long as you are using your career to improve the quality of your life, not just through the pay, but you know, maybe it's to cuz that allows you time to, pursue your hobbies.

[00:08:52] Mike: Maybe it's because you're learning some new skills, you know, it doesn't have to be a business or the perfect career researcher, as long as you can see how it's positively contributing. So your example there, you know, I appreciate my work because it enables me to go and do my foosball on Fridays or whatever it might be.

[00:09:09] Ross: Yeah, absolutely. So, help us understand the better happy approach. what are the pillars of your method?

[00:09:17] Mike: So there's, there's two parts that we do with the business, which is really looking at the strategy. does the strategy of the business encourage health and happiness in the workplace, and really what you can boil that down to is, are you measuring engagement or happiness amongst your employees?

[00:09:31] Mike: Are you linking the work that people do to the bigger picture so that they feel like it's got some meaning and value? That's like the really, really simple way of summarizing the business part.

[00:09:40] Culture travels downwards

[00:09:40] Mike: Then there's a leadership part, which is do the people at the top of the company that others are looking up to.

[00:09:45] Mike: do they look after themselves? Are they balanced? Are they prioritizing health? Are they having a positive approach to work? Because if they're not culture travels downwards, doesn't it. So if you've got somebody that's at the top of the company and they don't look after themselves and they have fast food every day and they, they work 13 hours a [00:10:00] day and they're always stressed and that's the culture you're gonna create.

[00:10:02] Mike: And it doesn't matter how many positive interventions you put in place for the staff. They're not gonna be able to get past that culture that's being created higher up. So those are the two pieces for the business. And then for the individual, it's all around health.

[00:10:14] Mike: So physical and mental health motivation, which is commonly known as employee engagement. So how are we maintaining levels of motivation and performance without burnout, which is really coming down to looking at how we balance our approach to work. So if somebody knows how to look after the basics of their health, if somebody knows how to. Maintain decent levels of motivation, not all of the time, but a lot of the time. And if somebody knows how to work in a way that doesn't lead to burnout, we hypothesize and prove that they're gonna be happy at work and in their personal lives or happier.

[00:10:44] Ross: it's very holistic this approach. You're talking about nutrition, you're talking about exercise and I don't think we can ever separate these things. I sometimes talk to organizations about some of the work I do, which is bringing the, the skills from ACT for, resilience and mental health and feel that I'm missing other bits of the jigsaw.

[00:11:03] Mike: Hmm.

[00:11:04] Ross: For instance, that's not gonna impact on a toxic environment with a leader. Who's not role modeling what we want to role model.

[00:11:11] Ross: And I have to talk about this and other things I could do with organizations, but it feels like you are, you are really addressing the whole organiz.

[00:11:19] Mike: Yeah, but I'd say there's pros and cons to, to both of those things. Isn't there. I think you can be so general that you don't make progress, or you can be so specific that you miss other things. But I do think, and I'm not just saying this cuz of the podcast. I do think that there's obviously requirements on both sides.

[00:11:35] Mike: So people, I think with politics at the moment, the issue we've got is that everybody keeps saying that the company needs to fix everything. And it annoys me actually, because the companies are backing it up. Just like the general message that's being promoted in politics, that the, the state has to do everything for the individual.

[00:11:50] Mike: And you're like, well, no, the company should do what it can to support the health and happiness of the employees. But. Equally as much, the employees should be put an effort into support on their health and [00:12:00] happiness. And if the business is doing loads and doing all of these different incentives and perks and learning opportunities, but then the employees aren't taking care of themselves or showing initiative, then it's never going to work.

[00:12:11] ACT

[00:12:11] Mike: And I think on the employee side or on the individual side, the most important area is the mind. And I think A C T is the place to start because people know what to do to be healthier. They do. Everybody knows that they can eat less chocolate, eat more apples, move a little bit more, you know, every, every person on the planet bar, very few know the basics of being healthier yet navigating the mind in the modern world requires a level of understanding.

[00:12:37] Mike: And it's almost a bit of an art form because of reasons that you, you and I know because. We don't understand the mind as well as we understand the body and the mind is faced with a lot of new challenges. And if you can get the mind, right, you'll find that you have the energy to go and look after yourself or that you want to do it.

[00:12:52] Mike: But if the mind's off, even if you know everything about being healthy, you're not gonna go and pursue the health stuff because you are doubting yourself. Cuz you're beating yourself up because you're depressed cuz you're not happy. Cuz you've got no energy cuz you are not feeling positive ever. So I think the mind is, the place to start.

[00:13:06] Mike: And I think if you, could just improve one thing, I would choose the mind over nutrition, over everything. Cause I believe that the rest of it will follow suit.

[00:13:13] Ross: Peace Supers. I'm just interrupting this broadcast to highlight a paper that speaks to this very point. It's by a friend of the show, Ian Tindel from the University of Chichester and Ruth Anne Re felt from the Chicago School of Professional Psych.

[00:13:27] Ross: And apologies, Ruth Anne, if I've mashed that pronunciation. The paper is called Why We Are Not Acting To Save Ourselves Act, health and Culture, and that's published in Behavior Analysis in Practice. It's such a useful paper that speaks about behavior change in general.

[00:13:42] Ross: and I'll put a link to it in the show notes, but let's head back to the chat with Mike.

[00:13:48] Interrupt and insert something about Ian's paper

[00:13:48] Ross: so in an intervention, like travel lodge, this is where we first connected. And you were interested in act. When did, when did you discover act, tell us about that.

[00:13:58] Mike: I was suffering [00:14:00] with my mental health after. Closing my first business after closing the gym going into COVID. I say I was suffering. I wasn't at rock bottom. Um, I was still doing things, but I just, I'm very forward thinking and preventative. So I was starting to not feel great. And I thought, can I have a conversation with somebody before this becomes a major issue?

[00:14:18] MINDFULNESS AND MEDITATION

[00:14:18] Mike: So I, I managed to get a, a psychologist and I think she was a bit thrown actually, because she , I was going to her without any major issue to fix. It was just kind of just generally feel like I, I could do things a bit better and, you know, avoid going through what I went through before with the gym. And I've obviously been armed with teachings on mindfulness.

[00:14:39] Mike: You know, I've sat in meditation for hours. I can sit and not trying to boast, but just to highlight that I've got experience, I can sit for no problem for an hour in meditation. But It felt like something was missing. And I didn't wanna go to businesses and talk about it either to be honest, because I think going to people that are stressed at work and saying be more mindful is a you're gonna get stuff thrown at you.

[00:14:57] Mike: It's not particularly useful. Is it? It's it's yes. There are benefits to mindfulness as we'll discuss. But I think on its own in the busy, modern world, it's not enough to solve a problem. And for a lot of people they're like, yeah, what good is that gonna do me?

[00:15:10] Mike: And it wasn't, enough for me.

[00:15:11] Mike: So I was talking to the psychologist and one of the things that I talked about was the imposter syndrome that I get owning better happy when I often don't feel happy. and we did quite a few sessions, but when I mentioned that she kind of, I saw her head twist a bit and she obviously had a thought and she goes, I think you need to read the happiness trap by Russ Harris.

[00:15:31] Mike: Who's popularized A C T And even though I'd heard it many times before through my living on monasteries, you know, you don't just learn something due by hearing it, once you have to hear it repetitively, you have to go through challenges to, to really learn something. And I think after that moment and having that burnout with the gym and having that session with that psychologist and then reading the happiness trap and being where I was at with, but happy reading it and hearing that message again, it's completely normal not to be happy.

[00:15:56] Mike: And that's okay. And the more bad you feel about [00:16:00] feeling unhappy, the worse it gets, I feel like that was like a kind of another epiphany moment and it was the right time in my life to hear that message. And then seeing A C T I was like, this is what I've been missing. So the mindfulness piece makes sense, but it doesn't lead anywhere other than being more aware of the fact that, of how, of how crazy your mind is and being more peaceful sometimes.

[00:16:19] Mike: But it's not. It's not a great practical application to the busy, modern life. And often if you get deep into the mindfulness stuff, you end up convincing yourself that the best thing to do is to go and live as a hermit somewhere. So you can be more mindful. And that, again, isn't practical, if that's not what you're going to do.

[00:16:34] Mike: So A CT adds a couple of tools around this and, uh, all of a sudden I was like, now it makes complete sense. And that's what people need to hear because it's very, I don't wanna say weaponizeable, cause it's probably the wrong word, but it's very actionable. You can put this into place and people would all of a sudden, see, now I can see how a bit of mindfulness is gonna help me get over this hurdle and get towards this thing.

[00:16:55] Mike: That's really important to me. Now I can see how having a bit of mindfulness can help me start to understand how the negative stuff I have in my head is a barrier to me getting where I want to get to as opposed to just being aware of it. Cuz just being aware of the fact that I tell myself. I don't feel like I'm good enough to do this thing.

[00:17:12] Mike: Isn't overly helpful. It's good. But where do I go next? Whereas A C T gives me a very clear roadmap to go. I notice that I don't think I'm good enough to do this now. What do we do about that to actually get past it? And that's really been the magic. I think

[00:17:26] Ross: Yeah. It's great to hear you. You talk about how you discovered that cuz then you and me work together on for instance work you you're doing with travel lodge to build that for people to, to share those skills. and you've said to me before, One of the most rewarding parts to deliver.

[00:17:43] Ross: and that makes my heart sing because I absolutely agree. But tell us about your experience of delivering ACT

[00:17:50] Mike: well, as you mentioned, it was great working with travel lodge because they really are willing to invest the time, to their people. So lots of companies will invest money, but not so many will invest time because all [00:18:00] companies are busy travel lodge, especially, and they were willing to commit, you know, three, full days for the, for this population of employees that they were working with.

[00:18:07] Mike: So we could really build out a very full, solution, which included on one day they would cover a component of physical health. Then they'd do one of the, A CT sessions. Then they'd do a component on driving engagement in themselves and others motivation. And then they'd do a piece on avoiding burnout.

[00:18:21] Rewards of delivering ACT

[00:18:21] Mike: So it was a very full solution. Now you got to cover all of those topics with these people, but without a doubt, hands down, the most rewarding part for me was the A C T sessions. And that's because you can see and you get told. The difference you're making in someone's life very quickly. You know, improving your nutrition improves your life.

[00:18:40] Mike: Gradually improving your sleep, improves your life gradually. But with the A CT stuff, you are making a difference to somebody's life in that 60 minute or 90 minute session that you have, right. Then you can see them having realizations. You can see when you share your own examples of things you struggle with and how you can improve that.

[00:18:57] WOW! I'm not the only one that's like this

[00:18:57] Mike: You can see them going, wow, I'm not the only one that's like this. And then the room comes to life and people start sharing their examples. And it's like a massive weight off people's shoulders, cuz I know, cause I've done it myself. People spend years walking around with these voices telling themselves that they're the only ones and that there's something wrong with them.

[00:19:13] Mike: Or they're, they're deficient in some way. And going through that period where you share it openly and you create the environment where people are happy to do it themselves is, is transformative.

[00:19:22] Ross: there there's an immense skill in, in what you do there in, in creating that environment where people can feel comfortable. And my sense is that comes from. People like you and me disclosing what's going on between our ears, because people will be thinking, Hey, this dude's the facilitator. He he's got it sussed.

[00:19:41] Ross: and if you are sharing examples from your life where they think, oh, blimey here, he is standing at the, the front of the room, sharing these really interesting and useful skills. And he's got this going on. I think it can really help people open up and go. Geez, like you say, [00:20:00] they could have been carrying this around for 30, 40 years thinking, oh, well I'm the only one.

[00:20:04] Mike: Yeah, it's really interesting.

[00:20:06] Impact of sharing the ACT Matrix

[00:20:06] Mike: I probably haven't told you this, but. when you and I started working together and, and you shared resources with me and we built this package out for travel lodge, you shared some of your, examples on the, A C T matrix, which is a tool where you, you basically go for this process of noticing what you're thinking and then plotting out what that leads to what you can do about it. What voices come on on the inside. Obviously I'm not telling you this Ross. I know you know it, but for, for your listeners. And I was reading for your examples of this, because you talked about how it's really important to share your examples, cuz that helps people feel more comfortable. And whilst I was reading your examples, that was probably one of the most therapeutic moments of, of the last 10 years of my life.

[00:20:43] Mike: Because I'd obviously been in contact with yourself. I've been learning from you. I look up to you and, and everything you do. I'm reading that you as a psychologist, who's got this great podcast and does all this stuff and works for these companies. And then just seeing on black and white on a piece of paper, like your struggles in these different areas.

[00:20:59] Mike: That was my moment of, wow. Yes, this is completely normal. Even Ross, the psychologist goes through these things and that was more therapeutic for me than, and I'm not putting, the other psychologist down, but that was more impactful and therapeutic for me than six sessions with a psychologist trying to dig into what's my childhood.

[00:21:17] Mike: How does that lead to me thinking this way sometimes? Why do I doubt myself? You know, really none of that, helped me. It helped me understand why I doubt myself sometimes help me understand why I can be too hard on myself and be a bit of a perfectionist, but. Did that actually help me? I don't know.

[00:21:32] Mike: I don't feel like I did, but did seeing that other people struggle with this and that it's perfectly normal and that there's a way past it. Did that help me? Yes. It helped me exponentially. Cause it gives you, it gives you actionable steps forward. So seeing your examples was probably one of the most therapeutic things are positively impacting things that I experienced, which I then went on to do in those workshops, which I saw doing the same thing for the people in the room.

[00:21:55] Ross: Brilliant work. And it's so great to hear that that has impact, cuz I kind [00:22:00] of have similar feedback from others that, that when we share like that, it, it helps people think my God, it's not just me.

[00:22:08] Mike: Hmm.

[00:22:08] Ross: When I had a similar experience when I was at lectures with Paul Flaxman as a mature student and he was, uh, explaining the concepts of act and I was like, holy shit, this is something that has humanity.

[00:22:20] Ross: It's so identifiable. And what I particularly loved was that he was saying like, this is the human condition. Your mind is gonna do this. And that's normal. and you can still choose to move forward in, in ways that have personal meaning for you. And that was it like, boom, I'm sold. I get

[00:22:40] Ross: this.

[00:22:40] Mike: it's such an important message.

[00:22:42] Ross: and as I've seen recently in your social media, we know people are suffering at work. People are depressed, anxious, stressed, and I've been all of those at work. And if we can share these skills with adults to help them

[00:22:58] Ross: respond to the challenges of work more effectively, then my God we've got kind of an urgent mission here.

[00:23:04] Mike: Yeah, because most of the suffering that we experience, we blame on the external environment, but it's internal it's because we're not dealing with these situations that are stressing us. Out's cuz we're avoiding them. It's because we are sitting on them for too long and that builds up and builds up and builds up and makes us resentful and upset and angry.

[00:23:22] Mike: Whereas actually, if we just, if we had a process to help us understand what's going on internally and how that's blocking us from being who we want to be or doing what we want to do, the weight of the world is lifted off your shoulders.

[00:23:32] Ross: and we have that connection as well. You and the people you are training can think this is almost another tribe There's this golden thread running through us that we're all doubting ourselves. So we're all having those moments of imposter syndrome or we're all have those moments where we feel shit.

[00:23:49] Mike: Yeah, it it's so eye opening for people. it's a transformative process. And maybe I thought before doing the sessions, you know, is it gonna have the same impact on these high level, well [00:24:00] experienced professionals that it did on me? And I delivered one session and I was like, wow, everybody is dealing with this CEOs, senior leaders.

[00:24:10] Mike: Everybody has this internal. Doubts and worries, and this negative self talk, and very few people have been taught that that's normal and that's okay. And that there's a way past it. So we're all walking around with it. I dunno what the percentages are, but I know it's gonna be a, a disproportionately large percentage of people are walking around with negative self talk and just letting it take over their lives and dictate their actions and make them feel really bad about themselves.

[00:24:34] Mike: And just hearing that that's normal, everybody gets it and that by accepting it and looking at a plan to get around it, you can deal with it just learning that is transformative for most people. Just that lesson alone.

[00:24:47] Ross: Wow. So, what's next for, better happy.

[00:24:50] Mike: We're just gonna carry on trying to do what we're trying to do. I think we're looking at currently putting an option in there for working professionals to come straight in. So even if their business isn't doing anything with us, we'll have like an option for the professional that wants to be healthier,

[00:25:04] Mike: less stressed, less at risk of burnout, but they don't wanna be going to a gym and measuring food and all of that stuff, you know?

[00:25:10] Mike: So we think we're gonna have an option for the, for the busy professional, but we're still working with businesses and trying to make the world a happier place.

[00:25:17] Ross: And, and of course you and me are still continuing our conversations and I'm absolutely sure that we're gonna have a chance to collaborate on something with organizations in the future where we can co deliver. Cause I think that will be enormous fun, but I think we could also maybe even enhance our individual impact.

[00:25:35] Mike: I think we're both excited about that. I know it's gonna happen. It's just, um, making it happen. Isn't it? It's the, the exciting part of business, which is offers marketing, getting in the right place. You know, all of that stuff that kind of gets in the way. If we could just throw the passion out there and have the customers lining up, that would be great, but it, uh, takes, it takes a bit of building work.

[00:25:53] Mike: Doesn't it? In the background,

[00:25:54] Ross: Yeah, absolutely. What keeps you going in your mission at better? Happy?

[00:25:58] Mike: I think being [00:26:00] very clear on the vision and mission is paramount. So Reminding yourself on a weekly basis, why you're doing what you do. that's really what keeps me going and. Having positive feedback from people that we work with. So reminding myself that sometimes I'm having a, bad day or a bad week, which, which happens, then look at the vision.

[00:26:18] Mike: Why are you doing this? Look at the mission. Yes, this is what's needed. And what you like, look at the difference you've made before. And I would be a bad person to not highlight as well that I have a very supportive, encouraging partner who I really can ask for more. She never, puts pressure on me to go and get a normal job.

[00:26:34] Mike: She encourages me even when I'm not feeling motivated. She's the one that says, you're not just gonna go and do a normal job because that's not aligned to you. This is what you're about. This is what you're meant to do. So, keep on it. So I think it's the combination of being clear on what you wanna achieve, knowing that you've made a difference before and having somebody that supports you Gives me pigheaded stubbornness.

[00:26:53] Ross: Wonderful. Well long may your peak headed, stopping this continue. I think the impact you're having in organizations like travel lodge for example, is, is phenomenal. That feedback. and if you could offer a takeaway to our the, the P supers, if you have anything that you would leave them with to think about or reflect on or a top tip.

[00:27:13] Mike: what it's gonna have to be in line with what we've just been discussing, which almost seems staged, but it's truly not. We haven't discussed this before. It's understand and recognize that the negative thoughts you have cuz you do are a perfectly natural and normal part of being a human being and that. By understanding them and getting clear on what's important to you. There is a way forwards and by dwelling on them and feeding them lots of attention, you stay stuck where you are or go backwards.

[00:27:41] Ross: I couldn't, I couldn't agree more. I would applaud if I wasn't so close to my microphone.

[00:27:45] Mike: need a, you need a electric one that you can just click.

[00:27:48] Ross: Yeah, I'll put it in afterwards.

[00:27:53] Ross: Mike. Ah, it's been an absolute joy having you on the show. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast and your openness [00:28:00] and your honesty again, helped normalize the experience of the workplace, that it ain't all roses and chocolates and jazz hands.

[00:28:08] Mike: It's been a pleasure. Thank you for having me. I always love chatting to you Ross. it's a joy.

[00:28:12] Ross: That's it, part two in the bag. thanks to Mike for being so open and for making such a difference for adults in the workplace. Next time I've got another treat for you. It's part one in my chat with Dr. Haley Lewis from Halo Psychology.

[00:28:32] Ross: If you like this episode of the podcast, please, could you do three things? Number one, share it with one other person. Number two, subscribe to the podcast and give us a five star review. Whatever platform you're on, and particularly if you're on Apple Podcasts, the Apple charts are really important in the podcast industry.

[00:28:51] Ross: And number three, share the heck out of it on the socials. This will all help us reach more people with stuff that could be. I'd love to hear from you and you can get in touch at people soup dot pod gmail.com. On Twitter, we are at People Soup Pod on Instagram at People dot Soup.

[00:29:08] Ross: And on Facebook we are at People Soup Pod. thanks to Andy Klan for his Spoon Magic. And Alex Engelberg for his vocal. Most of all, dear listener, thanks to you. Look after yourselves. Peace supers and bye for now.

[00:29:21] Mike: Just, just fear around having my voice against your voice, which is the most, one of the most relaxing voices I've ever heard on a podcast. it's just gonna, I'm gonna have to try and put my inner, my inner Zen on

[00:29:35] Ross: well I think you've got a natural voice for, for podcasts,

[00:29:39] Mike: and a for podcast.

[00:29:41] Ross: me too, mate.

[00:29:44] Mike: I've got a podcast.