Whether you're somebody that sometimes feels like there's never enough money for the month, or you're somebody that feels like, gosh, I tend to spend more money than I should on clothes or coffee.

Or maybe you're a saver, but you hate to spend money.

We're going to talk about Money and Spirit, the new book by Heather M. Day.

And we're going to really talk about how do we look at our finances from a biblical perspective and.

And what's really behind our financial habits.

Welcome to Faith Fueled Living, the podcast that equips you to live well spiritually, emotionally, physically, and purposefully.

Each week, we'll dive into conversations and biblical truths to help you strengthen your faith, pursue meaningful work, hear for your whole self, and live in line with what matters most.

Hi.

Today on the podcast, I would like to welcome our guest, Heather M. Day.

She's an author and ministry leader with more than 20 years of experience in the fields of marketing, communication, communication and nonprofit ministry.

She's the director of marketing for Barnabas foundation, where she provides marketing consultation and support for more than 200 Christian ministries.

She's of the author of Money and Spirit, Surrendering Our Finances to the Work of the Holy Spirit.

And I'm excited to have her join us today because we're going to really talk about what.

How did God design us to really experience, you know, the abundance that he wants for us?

How can we really understand from a biblical, biblical perspective how we need to look at and approach our finances and how that will really bless us in a bigger way when we allow that concept to run our finances instead of us trying to control them and often not go very well for us.

So welcome to the show, Heather.

Thank you so much.

I'm glad to be here.

Thanks.

Well, I would love it first if you could just share with, you know, the audience a little bit about what life looks like, what you're up to, and just a little bit more about what I already shared that you're doing at this point.

Sure.

So.

So, yeah, my name is Heather and I, my husband Robert and I have been married for 24 years.

We have two kids, one who just started college.

Emma and I have a son who is 13.

And so they keep between them and work and all the things I do in my church, I keep very busy, but I tend to draw.

I tend to be drawn towards creative things, towards things serving our church.

Those are the things that give me fuel and move me forward.

Yeah.

Wonderful.

So why don't you tell us a little bit, how did you Decide to write this book.

And what's maybe the crux behind that?

Just to get us started.

Yeah.

So actually, it's kind of a funny story.

So I work here at Barnabas Foundation.

We help generous Christians transfer their wealth in ways that honor God and provide for their families and support ministries close to their hearts.

So we received a grant at one point to produce a resource for churches that would help them achieve their mission.

And we spent quite a bit of time.

We had one of those meetings where you're just going around and around getting all the bad ideas out of the way first, talking about what resource could we produce that would be actually helpful for churches.

And we were just stuck, truly.

And my boss, as he so often does, is pretty characteristic of him.

He just stopped and prayed and said, God, this is your resources.

This is your grant money.

How do you want us to use it?

And it was from that, that quickly after we started talking about what would it look like to develop a Bible study based on how God wants us to view and manage our money.

So that started this project.

It took some twists and turns, but it ultimately came down to producing this book of money and spirit.

And it was something that was close to my heart because it was an area where I had seen God work in my life and in my marriage to just transform how I view and manage money.

So I just started writing and thought I'm going to write to who I was a few years ago and who I still.

Who I'm still trying to be, to talk to them about what God.

What God would say to us in the midst of that.

Yeah, I love that.

Yeah.

I mean, and isn't that so true?

We can share so much more when we've walked through something or something similar.

Right.

So.

So the fact that you were willing to, you know, share your journey.

Right.

And it's.

It is a journey because it's not over, but, you know, kind of what you've learned as you.

You addressed or looked at your own finances.

So I guess the first thing that I would say is, what would you say?

Where are most people?

You know, you have lots of examples in the book of real people and sort of their struggles financially and then kind of what transpired.

And so I guess what would you just share?

What's the common themes that are going on that you see a lot of us are just grappling with?

I think a common theme is that we are just.

We're so private about our money.

It's because.

Become this taboo subject in.

In lots of circles.

But Especially in the church, that we just don't talk about it because it feels worldly and, and because of that, whether we have all sorts of different struggles, whether it's debt or whether it's greed or whether it's anxiety, we have all these common struggles that, that people have, but we don't.

We don't vocalize them and therefore we don't realize the.

That we're not in this alone.

We feel like we've really made a royal mess of things and nobody would understand and we're embarrassed, we're ashamed.

And we find ourselves in these places where we just see no hope.

And the truth is that, that anything that, that holds us in bondage, anything that creates fear, anything that creates anxiety, God wants to get involved in that.

He.

He had.

He wants to bring us hope and healing, not just on the other side of eternity, but in the here and now.

He wants to bring hope and freedom for us.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So good.

So I guess in the examples that you share, is there one in particular that kind of just.

And they're all different examples, of course, but is there one in particular maybe you want to share with our audience and just why their story kind of resonates with so many of us and then kind of what, how it transformed?

Yeah.

I think that there, there is one story in the book of.

She tells how.

How she went through a series of things where she would just get her hopes up.

They were wanting to.

To buy this home.

They were getting overwhelmed.

And there was things that there was missteps that they'd made along the way.

But then there was also decisions that were completely out of their control.

And, and she just felt like.

Like I just see no hope in my situation.

They were literally living in her.

In law's basement when she said, I love them, they're won.

I didn't intend to live here for this long.

So they found themselves in this situation.

And she said, I just came back to surrendering this to God and feeling at peace that God's got me, God's got this situation and to continue to hand it over to his control.

And that resonated with me because that was my own story as well, of just this constant, like for us.

And I know this the case for a lot of couples.

It was just anytime we talked about money, it was a source of tension where we just saw things differently, as we do in so many topics in life.

But we looked at these things and we couldn't talk about it with there being worry or anxiety, tension.

And we came To a place as a couple where we just literally, we had gotten.

In our case, it was.

It was debt that was overwhelming us.

And we came to this place where all of a sudden my eyes were open to how big the issue was.

And we literally just prayed together as a couple, like, God, we've made a mess of things.

Help us.

And it's not.

The message of the book is not a health and wealth.

It's not a pray and you'll get.

You'll suddenly win the lottery or get a check in the mail.

But when we surrendered to God, he began to open our eyes and to the people around us, to the support systems around us, to the resources around us that would help us to slowly reconfigure how we view and manage money.

How he would like us to do that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Oh, thank you for sharing that because, yes, I think so many of us can relate to some part of that whole, you know, your whole story.

So that's wonderful.

Yeah.

And I think you brought up so many good things already, which is.

You're right.

I think we're afraid to go ask for help or to.

To share because we feel like, oh, like they'll.

They'll judge me.

Right.

Or they'll.

Whatever.

Whatever the thing.

But we have a feeling as if it's bad for us to talk about it, even though really us talking about it, just like any other part of life or marriage, we often find, oh, you've gone through that too, you know, and then you start realizing, well, what helped you?

How did you, you know, come out of this?

So, you know, one, I think that that's such a good point, and two, it's that we do have different viewpoints.

Everybody comes from different backgrounds or most people, and so they have different perspectives on all areas, but especially in this area.

And so what would you say?

So one of the things I know in the book, it says is our financial lives reveal where we find our security, happiness and comfort.

And so, you know, obviously that's part of the theme of the book, which is, are we trying to do this?

Are we trying to figure out our finances?

Are we trying to understand wealth from a cultural perspective or from a biblical perspective?

So what would you just share with us about what you learned and what you kind of share in the book about that?

Yeah.

So the book is really based around the Fruit of the Spirit, which somebody had just made this comment to me, talked about how would we view and manage money differently if it were guided by.

If we saw the Fruit of the Spirit and How we view and manage money, which was just a mind blowing thought to me because I'd always thought about like surrendering my career or my family or my, my health, whatever, like to pray to God, like help me to be more like you, help me to show your love, help me to show your kindness, help me to show your self control in all these things.

But it never dawned on me that the fruit of the spirit can show up in and how we view and manage money.

So, so I really started to look at it of when we see money is just the circumstances that we have around money are really just a symptom of an underlying problem.

So if I constantly feel anxiety around it, there's something else going on, it's not about it.

You know, there may be, there may be, obviously there may be some like it's more anxiety if you want your account.

But even those that struggle with that they could have all the money in the world and still worry about is it enough?

Will it be enough?

What if?

What if?

So the money is just a symptom of whether it's misplaced priorities or it's misplaced trust.

Maybe it is we've been using it as a form of control or we've been using it as a way to buy the love of others.

So we see all this bad fruit in our life where God wants to transform so that we show love and we show kindness and we learn self control and patience and all these incredible fruits of the spirit that we're not wired on our own to do that.

But when we allow the Holy Spirit to work through us, he can transform everything, including our finances.

Yeah.

Oh, so good.

Yeah, I mean I think it was maybe in that same area, but so yeah, you kind of talk about in the, in the, I'll probably quote it, but you're talking about that like you said, there's something more which is have we had our heart change like you said?

Are we allowing, inviting in the Holy Spirit to give us the fruit of the Spirit?

But even in our finances, even in our, the money that's coming in right.

And going out, I think you say, let's see, unless we are change at the heart level, we will always have a distorted or have distorted finances that reflect very little of God's original design for our wealth.

And so but what do we do if we realize like yeah, I mean I have some, I haven't struggle in the financial area, which probably a lot of people could raise their hand.

Right.

So whether it's like you said, they're, they have too much debt, or they're overspending, or they're just always feeling, like you said, anxious or worried about where the next amount will come from.

So how do we start making that shift?

You obviously talk about a lot of practices or things we can start doing.

So what would you just share with us?

Like, how do we go from there to getting to a more grounded and healthier place with our finances?

Yeah.

So I think, number one, it starts with surrender and inviting God to be involved.

He wants to walk beside you.

He wants to carry you.

He wants to reveal things in you.

So I would start with just that moment of prayer, of saying, God, I need you in this.

I want more than what I'm.

What I'm experiencing on my own.

I want to know your healing.

I want you to reveal in me anything that's not like you.

I want you to use this journey to take away the things that are holding me in bondage and that are creating fear in me and really pray, you know, Lord, search me and know me and created me in a clean heart.

So it starts with there and then.

And then it's a matter of, like, opening up your eyes to.

To the people around you.

And start, in my opinion, like, to start with being authentic to the people around you.

I've experienced this over and over again in my life.

That the things that.

That were holding me down or I had shame about that this was a lie that the devil would tell us is that we're all alone.

So, for example, after my firstborn, I went through postpartum depression, and that.

That really held me in darkness for quite some time.

And it flipped a switch.

The day that I not only prayed to God about it, but the day that I told a friend what I was going through, and she said, girl, I've been through that too.

You know, it all of a sudden, like, brought light into the darkness because I felt like this was my burden to carry alone and that nobody would understand.

And yet it brought such freedom to recognize that I had people around me who could go through that journey.

And the same is true with our finances.

We think that we're all by ourselves and nobody would understand.

And if we could just get.

If we could just get beyond that and have the courage to say, I need help, or I need somebody to just ask some questions to you.

I need somebody to admit that I don't know what I'm doing.

You would be surprised by how much have you.

A, how many people around you are feeling the exact same thing, and B, you have People in your life who are willing and excited to help you in that journey.

Yeah.

I mean, even somebody.

I haven't interviewed them yet, but somebody I follow online, he and his wife, they.

They help other Christians with their finances and I think maybe starting businesses.

But what's so inspiring by following them is they share all of these different.

But like, a lot of sticking points.

And also how so many times we are oblivious that we already have this, this skill, this ability.

Maybe we bake bread.

What.

It doesn't matter what it is.

It's like, oh, God's already provided these other things that might give you a little extra income or, you know, and then even, even the whole, like, we saw some of the stuff in our house that we're like, oh, we don't need this anymore, but we don't do as good of a job with that as we could.

Or I don't at least.

Yeah, but like, that.

Where there's this.

He just posted about that.

Like, there's this money sitting there that you could now have towards something.

Maybe you've been like, oh, I really need.

We need to repair our car or we want to go on a vacation, but we don't really feel like we want to take from our monthly budget.

Right.

And so like, things like that.

But sometimes we need our eyes open where hearing people or going, getting these resources, having conversations.

People might have creative ways.

Not just like, how do you budget?

And like the standard things, but like, I hadn't even thought of that.

Right.

Because sometimes we just don't look beyond what we're already doing, whether it's more money in or how we are spending it going out, you know?

Right.

So, yeah, so absolutely.

So we start with the surrender and just like asking God to help us in this area.

And then like you said, don't, don't hide.

You know, what you're going through.

Share it.

And I have a similar story.

Not related to the finances either.

But when one of my sons was in college, they're all about college age now.

We're just after.

But he came home because he was struggling with depression and suicidal thoughts and.

But I shared that with people and I wasn't sharing it.

I wasn't sharing his whole story.

I was sharing with people because they also had people in similar ages.

And I knew that me sharing it might help them before they ever got there with conversations or.

You know what I'm saying?

Like, if I hid that because I was ashamed or I was for him, it would have not allowed me to have conversations that I had with some other people or find out this was a resource because we actually went through something like that.

And so by, like you said, not keeping it in the dark, we are able to come together and lift each other up.

Right.

So that's what the Bible says, is when we share with each other, we can also experience with each other.

Right.

And also bring each other out of these different things or you know what I mean by that, like in a supportive way.

So, yeah, it's so important, the community aspect of it.

Exactly.

And you can invite people to help you in your journey and also by you sharing your journey.

That's so good what you just said, because you're alerting to people to.

The Bible says the devil prowls like a roaring lion trying seeking to devour us.

And if we can talk openly about the struggles that we have, not only can other people help us and be protective of us and help us, but we can help others to.

To not have the same struggles again.

That transcends money.

That trans.

That goes into parenting.

That talks about, like, as women, we just.

We're so prone to shame, we're so prone to hiding, and we're so prone to putting up a front of.

I've got it all together.

And I should know this by now.

So I'm not going to admit that this is something that I'm weak in when that.

That's the very thing holding us down is that.

That.

That wall of privacy.

God created us to be community.

We need each other.

But to be community starts with being authentic and being real about what we're going through.

Absolutely.

And I think another important point is if we've gone through that and we've started to make progress.

Right.

Improved this area, let's say, in this case finance, it's going to give other people hope.

Right.

It is a testimony that it can be changed.

Even if you feel defeated at this moment because maybe it's a lot of debt or whatever it might be.

Like there's so many stories and examples of people that have come out of that they've paid it off and now they are moving towards or in financial freedom.

Right.

We're maybe not all there yet, but the point is, is some people are.

And so, you know, it's.

But hearing these stories helps us also set our sights on the future and that we can go from where we're at to a hopeful future.

Right, right.

I agree.

And also that you don't have to wait till you've got it all together to share that story.

You know, even as I'm talking about this book, we're in a new season where we're paying for college while we're doing.

While we're paying for medical bills and handling all these different things.

So it's not as if I have a before and after where money was a problem, I fixed it, and I never worry about it ever again.

Like, this is a constant thing.

But I can I just.

Because I.

It's not perfected.

And just because I don't have all the answers doesn't mean that I can't say to a friend, come learn with me.

This is what I've figured out so far, and this is what God is teaching me that's so powerful to be able to share our stories and connect with one another, even in the middle of the mess, as we're still trying to figure it out.

Yeah, I mean, like I mentioned before, just some of the stuff my husband sold when we cleared out part of the garage in the shed, I mean, it was already like $600, and he just posted the stuff online.

And like I said, I have.

We have like a whole little area.

Sadly, in the house that needs to still get sold.

It just hasn't sold.

But, like, I also was like, oh, I need to go through my closet.

Because I have a lot of things I've probably purchased that were not super expensive things, like sweaters I've worn one time.

And I just realized they're really not the right fit for me.

Like, I'm not super tall.

I'm five three.

This would look really good on a taller person.

Or it's not really the right color for me.

But instead of sitting in my closet, I've been thinking for a while of doing like a bring it all down kind of display it and then tell people I know, like, hey, everybody, come over.

And everything's $10 or $5, whatever amount.

Yeah.

And.

But what's funny is I've been thinking about doing that, and I just saw a woman I know, like an acquaintance woman, you know, from.

From online for years.

She just did that because they're moving.

So she just did a huge sale of all of that, like all her clothes or purses and all.

And I was like, once again, me saying that someone might not have done that yet, but it's like, once again, even if I make $200, $1,000, that's money that was just sitting there in the things.

And now I have that extra little bit of money that can go towards something that I want.

We wanted to do or buy, right Like a trip with the kids or whatever it might be.

So once again, if we talk about these things, people start realizing like, hey, there's other opportunities, there's other ways.

Just like this isn't something I do.

But one of the benefits of this.

I forget the word now, but you know, the economy, where it's like a side hustle type economy, is that some people, whether they're retired or they're in the military or they part time or college and they can go and do Uber, Uber eats, like any job, just there's so many where they don't have to apply for a job.

You just sign up and if you have a car or whatever, you can go and make extra money.

Right.

I mean, there's other ones.

You don't have to go drive people.

But my point being is that did not exist 20 years ago.

It was harder to be creative, to find ways to make money.

And now there is a lot of opportunities.

If, for instance, we're like trying to pay something down, there's ways to make additional income is what I'm saying.

And so once again, there's so much hope.

But we need a plan also, right?

Yeah, yeah.

And there's enough to go around, you know, like we can be free to share, share what we've learned, to teach each other, learn learners.

That's why, like in one of the things that, like in writing this book, I wanted to write a chapter about each of them, but I wanted to do a couple things with it too, to just help move into, just from learning to application.

And one of them is that there's prayer and reflection questions in each, in each chapter.

But also more importantly, I think like there's, there's discussion questions at the end because I think the more that we can bring other people into the journey, whether it's like if you're married, doing this with your spouse or with a small group or like a book club, anything like that.

The more that we can do that, it goes from beyond, just okay, I read it, thought about it, moved on to something that we can hold each other accountable and learn from one another.

Because we've all got practice.

You may not know everything, but you know a lot, you know, and you could teach me what you know.

Yeah, well, and also it's doing something with someone else.

Yeah.

Makes us more accountable, but it also can get us more excited, you know, like even today I feel like I'm frustrated or we don't see.

Somebody doesn't see eye to eye with their spouse or whatever their situation.

It's like, oh, okay, like, I can tackle this, right?

Like, I can start getting.

Seeing this.

This different, My finances different.

Right, Right, absolutely.

What would you just share, though, about?

Well, because we started talking about this, but, you know, one of the things I had written down to talk about is money isn't the issue.

Right.

It's spotlights where we.

Where we're hidden, where we've hidden our treasures.

But that whole thing about, like, we're bringing these money stories in, right, to our current situation or our past, and we don't always realize, like you said, like, is it because I'm afraid God's really not gonna give.

Keep his promise of providing for us?

So what can you just share with us about that?

Like, unearthing maybe these things, these thoughts we're holding on to that are keeping us stuck, like, in worry about finances.

Or maybe we overspend because we don't realize.

Like, maybe when we were younger, we thought, like, well, we couldn't have these things.

And so now we.

Or we don't really think it through.

Like, do I really want to spend my money that way?

You know what I mean?

So what would you just share with us about that?

Yes.

I'll give you an example.

And as I said, I go through the different.

I go through different fruits of the spirit, so I explore, like, the fruit of love.

And what does that look like?

And so one of the things that we.

We.

We know is just we all have, like, a hole in our heart of wanting to feel a sense of love and belonging.

And for those that have struggled to have had particular struggles, whether it's in childhood or just they feel lonely, our money can start to reflect those feelings.

So we feel like I have to dress a certain way so that people think I'm enough, or I have to dress my kids in a certain way so that they don't ever feel like I did as the outcast.

Or it might be that, like, I buy lavish gifts because I want people, because I think that that's what.

Why they want to spend time with me, you know, buy gifts for my kids or my grandkids.

Because I think that it's not just enough to just be with them.

So.

So there, like, you start to see how, like, I'm using money in a way to fill that spot that can only be filled with recognizing that we are beloved creations of that God loves us deeply, he loves us madly.

And, like, there's.

There's nothing that we can do to make God love us more or to love us less.

And as we start to recognize that and truly embrace the love of the Father, it changes that I don't have to prove anything.

I don't have to prove who I am, that I am enough on my own.

Yeah.

Whether I have a hole in my shirt, you know, or.

Or my kids are wearing pants that are a little too.

Too short because they've outgrown them over this.

Yeah.

No, that's a good example that you shared from the book.

I love that.

Yeah.

I mean, it's just like you said, I so many things.

If we're having an area where it doesn't feel aligned, Right.

Like, it doesn't feel aligned with, like, we know God says he'll provide and, you know, he wants what's good for us, that doesn't always mean that it's that we have the most money.

Right.

He doesn't promise a certain amount of money or whatever, but he promises, like, we'll be provided for.

Right.

But two things I bring up is, one is we still have to look at did.

Are we, like you said, surrendering?

Then are we renewing our mind with biblical truths?

Because to your point, it's not like we're saying, don't go buy something for yourself ever.

We're just saying if you find that you have a pattern, a repeat pattern where you're one of us, any of us are overspending, or we're buying so many things, or our debt is crazy, and it's not just because we get it.

I mean, sometimes in life, you, like you said, medical bills pile up, your car breaks down, then your AC breaks down.

Like, there are seasons where it's never one thing.

Right.

So there are seasons like that, but once again, that becomes stewarding.

Other times, you know, like, how do we start having that emergency fund?

How do we.

Right.

So in other words, there's all these different pieces.

But the point is, is if we see patterns that you can't.

That we can change.

In some cases, like everything breaking, we can't change that, but we can change how we're prepared for it.

Right.

Or how we might get through it.

Right.

Yeah, we.

Like.

One of the things that we had to wrestle with was so early on, one of the things that we did in this prayer of surrender was to take a financial course.

And you think, oh, I should know all these things.

But.

But we went back to the basics.

We went back to the basics of starting the envelope system and only paying cash, and we went to building up an emergency fund.

And it felt counterintuitive because we're like, why are we building up an emergency fund when we're just trying to get day by day?

But I remember how incredible the feeling and what it was when we had done that and our tire blew out on our van.

And it wasn't a crisis because we had the money set aside to help us, but it started with that self discipline of we're going to set aside this money until it happens.

And so again, it wasn't like we had a giant windfall, but it was because we learned self discipline and that we weren't going to spend beyond our means, that all of a sudden when an emergency came up, we were prepared for it.

And then we went right back to refilling that safety net and just kept coming back to those basics over and over again.

Well, I think that's a good point, which is whether we know the basics well or not, we can always learn them and go back to them.

I, I did try the envelope system at some point as well, especially during the holidays, because that's a big time.

A lot of us can overspend.

I've definitely been guilty of it.

And it's not because it's on one thing.

It's every little purchase for all the different.

You know what I mean?

And so the point though is sometimes like that if, you know, oh gosh, that's a time where, you know, if I don't budget or I didn't budget, I go over what we wanted to spend.

So, like visually seeing, like this is the money for the kids gifts, this is the money for.

But whatever you need to do, the point is there are systems that can help you.

Because if I'm being honest, a lot of us might struggle if you're using, like we pay off our credit card every month, but we're putting on a credit card, it is easier to see the money going out as you're doing it.

Especially if we're, if you're like me, where you do order stuff online, you know too.

Yes.

So, you know, there are some things where it does make it easier to not pay attention to how much money you're spending.

Yes.

Cumulatively added up.

Yeah, it doesn't feel real and it's, it gets harder.

You know, I use my phone.

There's times where I don't have my wallet with me and I've got my phone now that I could just tap pay, you know, and it like, whereas if I had, if I had had to go get out cash and paid for it, I might have thought, do I really need this.

But with between online shopping and tap pay and all these other things, it's so easy to get right back into those old patterns of instant gratification.

And you have to relearn to put what are boundaries so that I don't overspend without even realizing I'm doing it.

Same, same.

Same here.

Right.

You know, so, yeah, like, if I know something's coming up next month, or like, we just paid for a trip for end of or in January, so I'm like, okay, that's gonna hit this month and we'll pay it off.

But the point is, because I put on the credit card, but that has to keep.

That has to be front and center.

So I'm like, okay, this month, I already invested that money for that trip.

So I.

Even though we have that money in the bank, I don't want to have a credit card bill that's three times.

So I need to be a little cautious.

Right.

About my other spending this month, because we did that was important.

I wanted to take that trip, but that.

Then that was my.

What I chose, right, to spend money on over the next, you know, coming months or whatever.

So.

Yeah.

So good.

So what other, I guess, just practical advice would you give people, you know, to.

When we're trying to really align our finances and the way that God wants us to be living, you know, as far as our wealth goes, what would you just share with us?

What other things can we be considering?

Well, there's a few things.

One very practical that I was just thinking about in terms of, you know, so another issue that I've struggled with all my life is, is weight.

And I know that the times that.

That I've lost weight started with me getting very diligent about recording what I'm doing, because it all of a sudden, like, starts to become real of, like, I feel like, oh, I didn't eat that much.

But then you start listing every little thing, and it adds up quickly.

So in today, where we're using tap cards and phones and all that kind of stuff, it may not feel practical to pull out cash and put it in an envelope.

But maybe.

Maybe it starts with just recording it and getting very, like, really looking closely like, okay, how.

How quickly are those Starbucks runs adding up?

Or I don't feel like I'm spending that much, but every time I get gas, I'm getting a drink.

You know, I'm speaking myself true.

Whether it's like, pen, paper, or on a notepad or connecting with an app that keeps track of you, because track because it really helps you to identify where the issues are and where like our impulses are taking over.

And what was I feeling in those moments that I bought those?

Was it because I was at the long end of a long, stressful day and I felt I deserve this?

So I'm using this as a coping mechanism rather than dealing with my feelings.

You know, just start to ask yourself, like, what.

What is at the root of why I'm struggling in this way?

So if I feel this strong urge that I have to buy something, what is the underlying issue that's going on here?

Is it because I want to feel a sense of belonging?

Is it because I'm buying this?

Because I want to feel protected, that nothing will ever catch me off guard?

We can prepare for all the things in the world, but ultimately God is our provider and he's our, our source of protection.

And, and if we're, if we're turning to things, it's not that we can't, shouldn't be smart with our money, it's not that we shouldn't save.

It's not that we shouldn't do these.

But money can never replace what God was intended to do.

So making sure that we're looking at why am I making the decisions that I'm doing and continuing.

Surrender is not a one time thing, but surrendering daily, hourly, like, God, I'm struggling right now.

Like, what do you want to show me?

And what help me to see what's not like you and make me more like.

Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up because it's so true.

A lot of us don't even think about in so many parts of our lives.

Like, you know, like, what's, what's a repeat pattern, right?

Sometimes it's that we have repeat patterns about co workers or about.

But we don't realize we're the common denominator.

Right?

In other words, like, right, if you're the one that's always irritated by Susie or Sarah, like whoever, like, okay, maybe search your heart, write down like what keeps coming up or what's the thing, the theme in your marriage or whatever.

But it's also important.

Like you said, are we always shopping, like at the same time of day?

And then it's kind of like they tell you, don't go to the grocery store when you're hungry because you'll buy stuff that maybe wasn't on your list or that you didn't really need, but you're.

It's like, oh, that looks really good now.

And then you end up buying this stuff.

One, that you might not want to eat.

Right.

It might not be good for your fine as other than a treat on occasion.

But two, it also just put your.

The amount you spent into, you know, a higher category.

So I'm glad you brought that up because I think some of us don't really reflect on that.

Yeah.

Like, you know, like, for instance, I have a wedding to go to this weekend and it's black tie optional.

And I looked for a dress and if I had found one that I thought, okay, it's not too crazy expensive and it would have worked, I would have bought it.

But nothing was.

They all just seemed.

And I mean, I could have gone to a nice dress store, but just never did it.

I never read the time, but I have two dresses.

They might not be quite as formal, but they're still nice dresses.

I've only worn them probably a couple times over the years, but I'm like, I'm just gonna wear one of them, you know, And I spend money on plenty of other things.

I was like, I don't really have to have a new dress.

I was gonna maybe get a longer dress.

This is only like about to your knee.

But I'm like, I'm also not very tall, so a longer dress isn't really the best.

Yes.

Aisle for me anyways.

So my point being is like, but why was I trying to get a new dress?

And I'm not saying if I had found one, I wouldn't have bought it.

But over time I was like, I don't really, like, it's not even my family.

It's just a friend, you know?

Right.

I don't have to have any dress.

Like, I'm there just to celebrate the wedding.

And so when I started re shifting it, like, I don't have to have a certain exact dress because I was hearing them all say, oh, we're going to wear more formal and you know, full length.

So then I thought, oh, I need to get a new dress.

But as I thought about it more and I looked and I looked, I was like, I'm not going to get a dress just to get it if I don't love it and think I can wear this for other events.

So it's kind of like that.

Like, I had to kind of check, like, why am I buying a dress and I might not even love it.

You know what I mean?

I was like, I don't have to do I have something that I could.

Wear that would work.

And so, you know, I think sometimes we just like you said if we take a little more time, we start wondering like, oh, why do I have that in my cart?

And sometimes I'm like, oh, I want to buy it.

I think it would be great.

And I love, like, this is exactly what I've been wanting.

But other times I'm like, do I really need that?

You know?

Yeah.

I have to ask myself, translating that to like online shopping and stuff like that.

Maybe you create.

You, you know where your triggers are.

So create boundaries.

Like, I'm not going to buy something on Amazon until it's sat in my cart for three days.

Maybe that's it.

Maybe that's a pun.

And clothing things I do not use the buy now function.

Exactly.

Yeah.

And I don't ever do the buy.

Now, but sometimes I do buy something that day.

But I'm with you.

I have a lot of things in my save for later books, shirts, whatever it might be, because they aren't things I need right now.

What it was is I saw something like, oh, that's cute.

I'll take a picture.

So then I put it into Amazon so I can find it.

And then I have to decide later, like, do I really want this?

Or I saw three cute shirts.

Do I really need all three?

Or.

Or is there one that really looks good and it had, it's good quality and had good reviews.

Right.

So it's the same, like, I agree with you.

Give yourself a little more time before you decide.

Yeah.

The more we can separate out, like that response and reaction.

Like, like to respond to situations, reacting like, I feel tense, so I'm gonna go buy something to make that tension go away rather than dealing with, why do I feel tense?

Why do I feel upset?

Why what is.

What is triggering me right now?

Yeah.

And one thing that I've found for myself is sometimes I love being outside anyways, but sometimes it's like, just go spend a little more time in the sunshine or go on a walk or take your shoes off, right.

And put your feet in the, in the sand or the grass or whatever.

And like, sometimes, like you said, we need to get out of our environment or the stress that we're dealing with or whatever it might be.

Get a new perspective.

Right.

Have a little quiet time, you know, read a couple pages of a great book that inspire you, you know, so I'm with you.

Sometimes we do need just a, we need to have a reset of some sort, you know?

And sometimes, like the other thing that has occurred to me is as, as a mom, like that what I am modeling to My kids.

Because the truth is, you know, this, this in at my point in my career and my marriage and everything, I've got more resources than when I first started out.

Not rich, you know, not wealthy or anything like that.

Yeah.

But I got what I had.

But when my, when my daughter sometime in the next few years gets married, she's not going to have at the income level we are now.

So I have to have a model that it is okay to wait and to not have to like, to not have to buy things immediately to show them that like we can find fulfillment in other ways.

Because I don't want to create this perception that you want something and you get it.

Sometimes I need to wait just for no other reason than to show my kids we don't, we don't buy everything that strikes our fancy every day, you know.

Right.

Yeah.

Well, and I'm glad you brought it up.

I've said this for years.

I have sons, I have three sons.

But, and I'm not.

This happens with boys or, and girls, but since I have boys, it's, it's not so much in my case.

But.

As the kids are coming up or they become young adults if you are, you know, if you're of means like you had extra income.

We tended to do things like, oh, we bought this for our kids.

We went to Starbucks with our kids.

We did their finger, like took them to the salon when they were 6 or 10 or 12.

Not any of those things are bad.

The issue is they don't realize that to what you just said, which is we're established in a lot of cases and we have been in careers, so our income is not what theirs will be when they're 20 years old in a part time job or in college.

But they're used to living at that lifestyle.

And so we do have to be careful.

Like, hey, just because you're used to these extras doesn't mean when you're on your own, in your own budget, you'll be able to do that as much.

But sometimes I think that's a disconnect for some of the young adults.

Yeah.

Somebody gave me a model several years ago, thankfully when my kids were little that I thought was really smart.

And so I started doing it again.

This was something that I learned from somebody else.

I've taught, taught my kids from the time that they were little that we, that they needed to structure whatever money they get into three buckets.

So the first 10% they give, they, you know, they, they tithe on it.

And then the 50% they can spend on whatever they want, and then 40% has to be saved towards something.

What are they saving towards?

You know, it's changed over the years.

It might be this bigger toy that they wanted, but that they can't.

That it's not an impulse buy, it's something they're saving for.

And I'm just trying to, like, as much as I can model that.

Like, it doesn't matter whether you have $5 or $500, like, you still can follow that same model of making sure that I'm giving away first I'm setting aside savings and then I'm spending within my means.

Yeah, I did that with my kids when they were little as well.

I mean, maybe not as much as once they were teenagers, but we definitely did that for each of them when they were little.

We had the little containers for each of them.

Yeah.

So.

But it is, it's.

I remember my brother, one of my brothers with his daugh.

When they would have whatever money for the month, he would be like, well, if you want to go do that thing, you just have to decide, is that how you want to spend your money?

Because there's no more money.

Like, that's right.

That's your allotted amount for however.

He worked that out.

But it was like he would tell them no, like, oh, I want to go to a concert or the movies, whatever age they were at.

And he'd be like, okay, just remember that's $20 of your 50 or 100.

Whatever he, you know, they had.

Right.

But I have a lot of other friends.

We would just dole it out.

Dole it out.

And it's like he was teaching them right, to be fiscally responsible then, so that as they get older, they could make those good choices for themselves then.

Right.

Because we don't have unlimited budgets for entertainment and going out.

Right.

Most of us don't.

So.

Yeah.

So, so good.

Okay, so as we start wrapping up, is what, just like, last words of encouragement?

Would you like to share with people just about, you know, seeking and going to God with your.

With, with everything, but with your finances as well?

Yeah, I, I just would emphasize that, that God loves you so much, you know, and the biggest lie that we believe is that we're all alone and nobody, nobody cares.

First and foremost, God cares if it worries you and it's keep creating bondage in you.

He cares about it and wants to free you from that.

So turn to him and then turn to the people that he puts in your life to help walk that journey with you.

Because he has created you to be in community and there are people around you who both can support you and need your support.

So the more that we're authentic and real about that, the more fulfilling our lives will be.

Absolutely.

Okay, so last question for you is, what is fueling you right now as we're in.

Well, we're in the fall.

And is there anything that's just filling you up right now, filling your heart?

Yeah.

So there's a few things.

One, I've just seen God at work over and over again, but then to say it's just a fun thing that's going on in my life right now is.

Is I'm doing.

I'm doing a Christmas musical with my son.

And, and that's so fun because it's serves no purpose.

Like, I'm a. I'm a like, goal oriented person who likes to check off these lists.

And it's for no other reason than it's just fun to do.

And, and I get to spend that time with my son and doing something creative.

Um, so.

So yeah, so that's.

That's been something that I. I'm really enjoying it right now.

Oh, I love that.

I, you know, I love when people share just really great things, fun, cool things.

Because too many of us take life very serious, like, or too serious.

And one of my guests of the episode hasn't aired yet, but we're talking about joy and also we're just talking about kind of like being more fun, live loving.

And like one day they were at some event and they saw a chick fil a cow.

Like, this is a woman probably in her 50s, you know, she went and literally like applied to be a chick fil a cow for no other reason that there was like, not a bet, but like a. Oh my God, that looks so fun.

And literally she's like, I just did it.

Because then they said it and I said, I'm gonna do that.

And so she did it.

But it was, it was out of this place of this fun loving.

Like, I mean, she didn't do it for like forever.

And it wasn't because she was trying to get the income so much.

It was just because she wanted to be the guy.

I love that.

I think we forget to.

We forget to play and we forget to do things.

You guys are silly.

That's what I'm saying.

And she shares some other great things as well.

So that'll be a fun episode when it airs soon.

But yeah, so I love that you shared a fun and a memorable thing.

You're going to do with your son.

So how cool.

Okay, so tell us, Heather, where can people find out about the book and then anything else, you know, just basically connect with you?

Yes.

So the book, Money and Spirit, Surrendering Our Finances to the Work of the Holy Spirit.

It's available online wherever you make your book purchases, so you can find that on there.

But you can also follow me and connect with all my socials or@heatherday.net so it's heatherday.net and I keep a blog there.

I have all my socials I would love to connect with with you and stay in touch and yeah, you can learn all about me there.

Wonderful.

Thank you for coming on and just sharing with us how much our finances are are really tied to our faith and sort of how we're practicing our faith and that there is hope for us to feel more abundant but also more so.

Feel the fruit of the Spirit and just feel that God doesn't want us to be worried or anxious about our money and that he does have a plan for us if we just seek him and then seek the people around us that can help us.

So thank you so much for coming and joining us.

Thank you for having me.

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