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On this episode, we talk with our good friend, Tyler Hartford, about faith and deconstruction.

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You're listening to the Dudes and Dads podcast, a show dedicated to helping men be better dudes

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and dads by building community through meaningful conversation and storytelling.

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Now, here are your hosts, Joel DeMond and Andy Layman. Joel DeMond and true Layman.

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How are you? Good. I mean, my eagles won.

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I'm choosing sides this time. Andy. Andy, these are fighting words for you.

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I'm hoping that the chiefs win tonight. I mean, I yeah, again, recording this on Sunday evening.

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So, oh boy, we'll find out here shortly. My kids have been out or my kids were at a youth group

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event and they were like a skating event and Aaron said he was just going to keep his

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his phone running in the game in the background, like in his pocket. So you could just have a

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live, you could skate and get a live update. Yeah. We'll see. We'll see what plays out.

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So you're really going for the eagles? I am. I mean, I chose that side this year

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because I lived in Philadelphia for a year and I wanted to do that. That's fair. That's fair.

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I wanted to have Philly connections. That's fair. Here's what I will say.

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It just seems that you also are going to be sideways with the with a good portion of your

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family. And I hope you've kind of my wife. Yeah. Namely, your wife. Namely, your wife.

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Oh gosh. Well, hey, everybody. Welcome to the Dudes and Dads podcast. Thanks for tuning into this.

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The polyphonic wizardry that you're going to experience. Yeah. You heard that's going on

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a shirt, by the way. I've been thinking of catchphrases. That's that's going on there.

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Super glad to have our guest along here tonight and we're going to be telling you all about him

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in a second. So Andy, let's just, let's just really catch up real quick because I want to know

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what's the status of your bathroom. Let's paint the ceiling. We're good. That's it. Yeah.

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Are you, are you pleased with where it's at and put some, put some like hooks and things back

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up, but I'm very pleased. It's better, better than you were. Yeah. You had to move out of your house

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for a little while. Right. You wouldn't, you wouldn't take the easy route. Like I suggested

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of just putting a Porta John outside. No, no, you, you just, you, you insisted on having running

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water in your bathroom or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Whatever. I get it. So, but it's all back together

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now. Yeah. We're so happy for you. It is. It is. How about you? Is your bathroom running?

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Yeah. Everything. Yes. Everything is operating. I'm currently, we're heading into a week, Andy,

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where I am going to be single parenting it as my wife is at a trade show in Las Vegas. So,

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hopefully I get my wife back and hopefully shouldn't hit the slots too hard. And that's,

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that's my number, my number two request. Honey, if you're listening, go to bed.

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No, it's three hours earlier. She's, she's fine. She's fine. So, yeah. Well, hey, Andy,

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do we, do we have anybody that we're supposed to say thank you to?

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Uh, not particularly. Not particularly. Okay. Well, just, hey, listeners, thank you. Yeah,

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thank you for tuning in. Appreciate you all. Glad you're here. Hey, so tonight, Andy, shall I

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introduce our guests? Bring them on. Let's just, let's, let's do it. And that's not even apologize

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for it. Hey, our guest tonight is a friend of the show, longtime friend of both Andy and I,

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our friend, Tyler Hartford. Tyler Hartford, he serves as the director of church leadership

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and communications at Yvonne network, a community of churches, educational institutions and mission

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organizations gathered around a common evangelical, an abaptist vision. If you're wondering

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what in the world is an evangelical, an abaptist, we have to be very careful. People think it's

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anti-baptist. Um, it's not, it's not anti-baptist. I mean, might for some people might be, but it's

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not. It's an abaptist. What? Something early on, Andy, I got these questions. Like, why are you,

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why are you anti-baptist? I don't, I don't know. Uh, Tyler and his wife,

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Janessa, been married for 22 years and they have, you got it. Seven kiddos, seven kids.

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Tyler's a graduate of Hillsdale college where he studied theater rhetoric and persuasion. I mean,

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that's the sexiest degree I've ever heard. Absolutely. He's also a graduate of Wine

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Brenner seminary where he received a masters of Divinity degree. Um, he has worked in multiple

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nonprofit sectors before coming to his current role, which, uh, included serving as a lead

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pastor for over 14 years in a single congregation. So now his role with Ivana, but here's what I,

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here's what I love about Tyler. Number one, he is, he is just the dearest of all friends. I am

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so grateful to have him in my life, but apart from that, uh, Tyler's, uh, church and faith

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experiences as we'll find out, he's, he's covered the gamut all over the place, all kinds of different

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experiences. I cannot wait to hear wild and crazy stuff, man. Um, but has served in serving local

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congregations, uh, has served at, has had non-ministry roles, has had past role roles now, um, serves a

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network of churches, uh, in the kind of greater mid, I guess greater mid-western region. So,

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um, so we're just going to have a, we're going to have a talk because when I was thinking about

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this conversation, there's been a long-term conversation about people, uh, Andy, you've,

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you've intersected with them. I know I have. I am definitely Tyler has, uh, people who grew up

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in faith communities, grew up with kind of, uh, kind of a traditional faith, uh, direction.

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And then, uh, something shifted significantly in their life, usually later on toward their adult

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years, began to question a lot of things. And then they start, we start hearing this kind of term

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about their deconstructing faith, going through deconstruction, deconstruction, deconstruction

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kind of becomes this buzzword, this thing. And I looked at, I was thinking about Tyler and I

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said, you know, if anybody, if anybody has thought about deconstruction, it's him. So

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that's why he's on. He's going, we're going to have a talk tonight. I'm really excited about it.

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Are you, are you excited? I am very excited. I see that's what I need. Welcome Tyler to the

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show. Hi Tyler. Hi Tyler. Yeah. My show having me on. Here's what's super fun is actually our

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studio right here. Tyler's actual office is just the next, uh, he's been so close yet so far away

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is, uh, we're usually here in the evenings. Tyler's here during the regular part of the day.

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And so like, I think last show, we're like, we need to get Tyler on. Yeah. It's like he's been

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just right across the, right across the hall. Yeah. So welcome to the show. Hey, great to be here.

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So Tyler, let's, this is the first kind of the long answer question because I,

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you're, you're church experiences and Tyler and I overlap a little bit in this kind of

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some of the background that we come from, but tell us about just kind of early faith experience

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for you, where your family comes from, what your early faith, you know, community exposures were,

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and then, um, like kind of the, the trajectory that that set you on early in life. Okay. Well,

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we'll just get into the ugly part first. Why not? Well, actually it, it, it, you can't have the

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sacred without the, without the clay, right? There's the holy and, and the earthy. Um,

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um, my kids joke that everything happened in my life when I was four. It's a family joke. It's,

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oh yeah, that's when, that's when you were four. That's when I got my hearing aid to have profound

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hearing loss. And it also, when my parents were separated, um, I think any child that experiences

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divorce, um, when a mother and a father step apart, um, you know, a child is half mom, half dad. So

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like if mom and dad can't get along, a child remembers that very distinctly. Like, can I even

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get along with myself? And so that, that's a kind of a living color time for me. And my mother's

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boss and his family took her in and really just ministered to her. Um, so as a four-year-old and,

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and with my mother set up in a new apartment, um, we began attending a local Baptist church. My mom

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had no faith background. And you're an only child, by the way. I'm an only child. Uh, we grew up in

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central Maine, so Bangor, Maine, um, uh, and kind of the last city before you get up into the North

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Maine Woods. Um, my mom had no church background. Uh, my, both sets of grandparents were divorced.

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And, um, just to make the story short, I mean, we both experienced Jesus in a powerful way. And,

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um, as the Baptists like to do, they rope you in early. And, uh, I was baptized at a very young age.

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Um, but at the same time, my father really wanted to, uh, kind of see if this marriage could be

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rescued. Um, was convicted about some things as well. They, the major part that made their marriage

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fall apart was, uh, infertility and lots of trouble trying to have a child. Then they had me and then

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there was just a lot of conflict around, uh, that and, and some other things. So my father then

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accepted Jesus as his savior, um, in the early eighties and, and, um, at Christmas. Um, and

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lots of amazing stories. Maybe sometime, if I come back, I'll share a couple of those, but he,

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he and my mom were reunited and, and in this Baptist church. Um, this was the largest church

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in New England at the time led by Buddy Franklin, who was a former roommate of Jerry Falwell. He

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was so powerful that when Jerry was setting up his moral majority offices, uh, he told Jerry,

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don't do one in Maine. I'll just run it. Like my church will be the center point.

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And so for context for, uh, for our younger listeners as well, see these names ring a bell

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with me when I was a younger kid, but this was a, the moral majority was a big time. It was,

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it was distinctly Republican, very, very conservative. Yeah. Moral majority Christian led

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cause the whole idea was that in the eighties specifically, that we were going to turn the

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country around by getting conservative Christian people elected into office. And so there was

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a network of pastors and politicians that were all working in this, in this direction. So this

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is kind of the, the political, uh, religious soup that you're, you're in. Yeah, really in the,

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kind of in the infancy of it. And Buddy, uh, in the middle of all of this, so I would have gone

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to the Christian school, started at kindergarten, repeated kindergarten from public to private.

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And then about second grade, um, he was going to run for governor. Um, and it came out in,

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in the press that, um, well, uh, he was accused in, in, uh, within the church by the music teacher

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that was my music teacher, um, without getting into too many details. I mean, basically you

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can imagine overnight, um, the school collapsed into, uh, probably a third the size of it.

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So there was a claim of infidelity specifically. Yeah. There was a very credible

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plans and, and a real power struggle, like where he fought to keep leadership. It blew the church

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apart. Um, we had joined a church plant by one of his associates before this happened.

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But this was my life. Like the whole school was, uh, connected to it. And so very early on, uh,

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lots of good people hurt and, and the family that led us to Christ, um, walked out the door and,

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and as far as I know, never darkened the door of a church again. Um, and I had grown up with their

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three boys. I was the same age as the middle one and they were just like family to me. Um,

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um, this was such a big deal that, um, People Magazine did a feature article on it. Um, 60

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minutes came and interviewed, uh, congregation members and other former congregation members.

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And, um, uh, Wallace, uh, yeah, yeah, he came and sat in our kitchen and interviewed my father

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and mother. I distinctly remember a strong smell of alcohol and cigarettes and lots of cameras and

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lights in our kitchen. And so it's, it's just burned into me by another separation, another divorce.

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Then, uh, the school, the church that I went to, so that, that was split number one. Then the church

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that I went to, um, the associate pastor, uh, was, was loved and had a real rapport with all the,

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the younger families and, um, uh, walked out, uh, left the church, left, took all the young families

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and, um, uh, my parents taught me that staying is important. Um, and living through the difficult

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times is important, like they tried to do with their own marriage. And so I wound up being the

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only teenager in that church, uh, my, my first year of junior high. Um, and that was pretty rough,

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but my, my pastor took me under his wing and he mentored me and we did lots of things together.

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Um, looking back at it, kind of the beginning of realizing that maybe I had a call to ministry.

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In the meantime, the, the pastor that left, um, had an affair with a woman that left with them and,

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uh, that particular, uh, church plant, the Baptist, sorry, Baptist at a listening. Um, they, uh,

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sometimes plant by splitting rather than intentionally planting. Yeah. Um, my church recovered,

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began growing again. Um, and who's the only pastor that didn't have a moral failing. Um,

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however, uh, I think he, he modeled a pastor that didn't have any patients. So like you kind of

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displayed that lack of grace that you sometimes see, uh, just a real quick, uh, quick temper,

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particularly with service workers. Um, then my, uh, college experience plugged into a, uh, Baptist

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church out that way and, um, my pastor came out and told the pastor that he, I should fill the

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pulpit when he's gone. So here's a freshman in college that would fill the pulpit from time to

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time with that church. Um, and they really have a great relationship, but then when I graduated

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that, that church also went through a very painful split. And in my home church, my pastor, I grew up

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under left. Um, and I know this kind of feels like this long litany, but it's important, I think,

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because he left and when they brought in a new candidate, that candidate was voted down by a

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whole family block that was led by the woman who led me to Christ. So there's a, so there's,

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you see this disconnect of like, here's this person, it was a significant influence in your

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life, but you would see them also as creating this division within your faith community.

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Correct. And, uh, my father at the time was, had elder in the church and had been told that,

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that he needed to find a pastor. He helped bring that candidate in. And so then with the elder

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board in, in private saying they had support in public, um, it was very divided. It came out that

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way. Um, again, I was aware, so I didn't know all the details, but I do know that there was high

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fiving going on in the sanctuary while the candidate was still in the sanctuary. Um,

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and so that candidate then, um, started a church in the area with the, the families that voted for

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him. Um, it's not funny, but it, it is. I mean, it's sad. Yeah. And, and, and the thing is,

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is this is where my own family was involved in that, um, kind of feeling like, no, the Lord has

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called this person to ministry, but because it was a situation where they couldn't afford him

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full time anymore because it was a split, uh, he had to work in the local school and guess what

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happened when he was working in the local school? Oh no. He had an emotional affair with another

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woman that was working in the school. Um, at the same time, the pastor, the other church,

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my home church brought in, uh, within just a few years, uh, managed to get the parsonage in his name.

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And on Christmas Eve, they discovered he had absconded with a bunch of their cast

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and was living in the parsonage next to the church in his name. And, uh, as far as I know,

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he may still be living here today. Wow. Wow. Um, so basically, basically stole, stole from the church.

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Yeah. Yeah. And so in my 20s, uh, here, like I'm landing in Toledo, Ohio and, uh, working

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for the Toledo Symphony at the time and just running into all these really beautiful people,

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you know, the artistic world and, um, you know, all kinds of crazy things I never expected. You

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know, 20 plus years ago, my supervisor was, uh, was a transgender who was going through a sex

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change operation, like, like stuff, a boy from Central Maine, just like never expected. Right.

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But, you know, beautiful people. Yeah. And I was just done. And we were at a Baptist church there.

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And, uh, when, when the guy told me that I needed to tell my wife to get baptized, the, the real way,

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instead of being poured on, you just tell her what to do. Uh, I said, so what part of personal

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choice have in all of this? But which, by the way, Baptist, I mean, this is the, this is the whole

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thing about, right? Our, our general Baptist, Anabaptist theology is that it is a believer's

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bat. Look, it is the high value of a personal choice. Right. Right. Yeah. Right. Methods may

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be debated, you know, dunk three times in the name of the Trinity or whatever. But we're just done.

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I was just done. Yeah. Absolutely done. Absolutely done. Um, and maybe as a note to it, I was just

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really thankful that we did, um, after a number of months, um, bound myself in a,

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in a little man, a Mennonite church in Toledo and experienced grace. And they kind of just

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loved me through my questions. Yeah. Um, and, um, around the same time, I saw my father dying, my

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father in law dying of cancer and got to witness, um, a pastor ministering to him in a way that I'd

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never seen before. And I was married to a woman who had not experienced kind of that level of

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dysfunction within the church. Yeah. So, um, I just, I just, uh, I think what I might do is just

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leave it to you to ask the next question. I tried to count up how many splits and, and I feel each

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one of them very deeply. And, and, and I, I don't say it lightly that I have no rose colored glasses

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about the bride of Christ is the bride of Christ. Yeah. Well, you know,

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Luther, uh, that classic line, you know, the, you know, the church is my mother, but she's also a

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whore and, you know, right? Yeah. There is no plan B. Yeah. And as our friend, Timothy David Miller

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says, the bride of Christ grows more beautiful every day in spite of our, in spite of our,

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and I want to, and I absolutely want to believe that. And I think that to be true if you have a

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global perspective on the church. That's exactly right. That's probably the important thing to

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say. So, you know, Tyler, you hear this story again and again, like for you growing up in your

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formative years, because all of us, Andy, you know, you, myself, we, we know as we're raising our kids,

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all these things are happening during your formative years where, where most kids are,

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you know, young people are forming the very foundation of their faith. And most of that's

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happening through the relationships they're having in faith community and all these relationships

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that you're having are, they're together and they're broken, broken, broken, broken, split, split,

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split, split, right. And eventually, aren't you just tempted to say, I think this whole Christianity

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thing for, for everything that's been promised to me and proclaimed to me and, you know, this,

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that and the other, are you tempted to say, I don't think these people believe this at all. And

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maybe even worse, maybe this whole thing is just a joke. Like maybe there's just, this is just sort

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of a, kind of a, you know, for lack of a better term, just another organization that is wielding

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power and influence for its own purposes. And do they even really believe what they say they

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believe? I mean, are those thoughts that go through your, through your mind?

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I've learned, you know, humans, human institutions will just always fail you.

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You lean on them, sometimes they break and those points just go right into your side.

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And we know Jesus, but that was his experience, right? He, he prayed the word of the psalmist that

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says, you know, behold, my friend who broke bread with me has now lifted up his heel against me.

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Right. I was in this weird dynamic tension, right? There's all this conflict, but then

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since my family wasn't from a robust Christian environment, my father did have Catholic background.

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I would come home from the Christian school every day and like tell them what I learned.

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So in my household, the roles were almost reversed.

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Interesting.

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They would say, what did you learn? And I would share from chapel or Bible.

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The other thing that happened is in that brokenness, we saw amazing things happen too.

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A local Pentecostal school shut down and all these students in one year

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landed in a cessationist school that didn't believe that the Holy Spirit spoke and made

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people speak in tongues and suddenly had kids in chapel.

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Acting a little bit out of order, a little bit out of the norm.

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We had these like out of ashes beauty.

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Yeah. Yeah. I think another thing that the fundamentalist perspective did give to me

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that I've never given up is that there is this sense that the word is trustworthy and true.

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I've abandoned the word like inerrant because in reality, that's only built on the King James

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argument. If people really want to use it, they'll say inerrant and autographs, original autographs,

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and then they'll say the King James is the God inspired version, which I would always say,

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well, they might do the Spanish speaking and German speaking and other people use,

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but anyway, I digress. There's such a high value on the word, which actually I found I could use

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in context against them as well. I was the one that was kind of annoying in Sunday school class

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because I'd be like, well, the Bible actually says this. Even though it's a very deeply human

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document with whole sections where they say the original meaning is not certain. That actually

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makes me trust it more. It's very, it just been handled for 2000, 4000 years, you know.

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So is there, because you touch on this and this is, I come from a background. So my dad was

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saved into a King James only church. He became a believer in his earlier 20s, KJV only, and

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he didn't, that really got, it's when he went to seminary actually, where that all got messed

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out for him, right? In a Baptist, evangelical Baptist seminary, but at the same time got

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really messed up for him. My mom grew up in an independent fundamental Bible church,

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where again, to your point, high value of scripture, high value of the word, but there's

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something else in the midst of that. There's a posture of heart in a, and this is what I wonder,

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when we're talking about deconstruction, there is a concrete certainty with which everything

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is stated and within kind of the fundamentalist ideal, right?

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Right. There's an uncomfortableness with ambiguity. There are things where if you pull

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one plank out, if that is negotiable, then the whole platform you're standing on can be quick

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sand, right? Like, we all want certainty and it's just so much easier to have just a simple belief,

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this simple truth, and just know that God said it, I believe it, it's done. But that's really

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not how scripture is written in most cases, right? It's poetry, it's narrative work, it's all these.

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But I think that we need to come to terms with the ability to say, you know, life is messy,

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faith is messy. And this certainty is in some ways a lack of intellectual and faithful rigor.

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I think coming to the faith out of a non-Christian or not very foreign background,

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I had to wrestle with it even at a young age to own it. But then a lot of people have been born

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into it. It's what they've known, it's the faith of their fathers and mothers. And so,

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all of us at some point, to borrow the famous words of the great theologians, tears for fear,

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it's break it down again, right? Like, at some point, every one of us is going to have a crisis

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of faith, a dark night of the soul, and cheap, simple platitudes will just never caught it.

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But I think one of the things that always fascinated me is when I heard the story about

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Mother Teresa's diaries being read after she died, where she's like, I haven't seen or heard from

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the Lord in decades, right? And people like, see, you know, what a hypocrite, what a...

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But St. John of the Cross is at the dark night of the soul, right? Like, that's when we look deep

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into the heart of man and realize our brokenness and we'll cry out for a savior. We've got to

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be okay with that. And I just think of people who are near and dear to me who lived, you know,

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maybe their younger years or lived up to a certain point in life, with what seemed to me like this

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rock, solid, unshakable faith. Like, just this consistent, like, man, of all people,

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you know, I know I can always look to them and say, like, man, they're always, they're always

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going to be holding, holding fast. And then something happens. Something happens. And I wonder,

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Tyler, you know, from your experience, because I look to your experience and I go, I go, man,

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if anybody had the opportunity to, again, just to say, I really question the validity

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of this whole Christianity thing. I mean, you were offered multiple opportunities, I think,

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think to go there. But you, you chose by, by God's grace and by a number of other things

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to go a different direction. What was different? What's been different for you?

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I think Bill, too, to go back to, you know, what you were saying is not only have we seen

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lots of people that we know personally have to kind of this, whatever, but we've seen

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lately a lot of people that we grew up with in the faith, you know, musicians and speakers and

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leaders who have turned and said, you know, I don't believe anything that I used to believe.

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And it's even harder because they were so public, right? They were so public.

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And now we see them saying, I don't believe anything that I believe to believe.

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Well, you know, again, this is a big topic because we don't know what all factors are at

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play. Are we dealing with internal factors where someone's wrestling with their sexuality?

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Are we dealing with external factors where there's been spiritual abuse or physical or

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sexual abuse, financial misconduct? I mean, there's any number of things that can happen

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to somebody that make them say, I'm done with the church, right? I said this at a retreat this

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weekend. And I got a lot of laughs. And I didn't really realize that people thought that I didn't

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like, I wasn't trying to be funny. Even my wife, maybe it was just a little embarrassed,

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but I guess I'm going to try it out on you guys. This is where this is where

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someone said, well, you know, I don't know if I want to sign a covenant, right? Because that means,

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you know, it's kind of they've got, you know, it's a legalistic, you know, black and white.

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Got you. And someone said, well, I only said my vows to my wife once. And like,

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I don't have to repeat them every year. You don't have to re-up my covenant to my wife every year.

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And I looked at them and said, well, I renew my vows every day.

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Come on now. Well, I mean, that's the relationship with the church, right? Like the

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bride of Christ, members of the church at some point have to come to the point where they say,

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you know, I wake up every day and I choose to follow Jesus. And I'm on a journey with other

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people and other people are messy. I am not saying stay connected to an environment that

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shields sex offenders. I am not saying gloss over financial misconduct. But what I am saying is,

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for us to just go at it alone and say that we don't need community anymore and say that maybe

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we do believe at least in God or Jesus, like there's a come to a point where you have to just say,

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there is no plan B, I'm going to go this direction. And trust me, now that I'm over

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like multiple churches in different settings, it's, you want to say, oh, here's this God's

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eye view that kind of gives you like a great picture of everything being so hunky dory.

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But no, what gets to me, what comes to me is usually just what makes me want to walk away

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at times, right? The ways that people treat pastors. We see so much in this culture of the

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big pastors that fail. But you know, 90% of pastors are out there slogging away.

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Doing the hard work.

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And the things that people are saying and doing to them are just not right. You would never do

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that in a place of business. Right. They're treated even, yeah, they're as a dedicated

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professional, they are treated in a way that would never be permissible in the other sector.

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And they're expected to do it for last, for the last benefit because they're missionaries.

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And just to take it.

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Anyways, we digress. I think we all need those colored glasses. I don't need those colored

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glasses. Let's lean into the deconstruction thing. Like, you know, does it resonate with me?

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Well, yeah, I think so. At some point, if there's been this big and from our background,

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evangelicalism, but fundamentalist evangelicalism, there's this big,

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big superstructure that exists of all these doctrinal points and all these things that build

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on like, like I'm, you know, for instance, and I'm not a reformed Christian, but like if you're

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if you're in a reform Baptist or which is many of the case, you know, it's one layer built upon

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another. It's this whole structure built on another of theological presupposition after

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one after another, right? And because you mentioned it's kind of, it is kind of this

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House of Cards thing that happens. And if you question one thing, all the other stuff can

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feel like it's like it's teetering and it's going to collapse. And then if it does collapse,

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what do you do? What's left? The answer for many has been, I'm going to start all over again.

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Like, I'm just, I'm going to, I'm going to take everything off the table.

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And we have an issue like in Western Christianity, where you almost have this

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Baskin Robbins kind of approach to like evangelicalism. Am I reacting to reformed,

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like total depravity Christianity? That's, that's the Calvinist approach where,

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where maybe they're even okay with going out for a beer and a cigar and that's,

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and then you're over at the other end where extreme charismatic where like you're not a believer

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unless you've been poured out on by the spirit and speaking tongue. So, look again, evangelicalism

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as a monolith. Really, when you get down into the ranks, if you react to one, I'm watching,

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I'm watching a dear young man that has had a profound influence on my children's lives.

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He, he's, he's left behind an apostolic Pentecostal stream. They had a high

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value on ways of dressing and behaving. And, and, and I'm watching him play out that

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deconstruction in reaction to that experience. And what you're saying, and I would agree,

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is a lot of people then kind of react against the whole stream of evangelicalism. And they move

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into either a kind of a general deism, a belief in God, or maybe an agnosticism,

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or maybe they'll move into an extreme form of progressivism that sometimes even looks more

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like universalist, right? Because God is pure love and there's no, there's no eternal punishment,

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that kind of stuff. So, so there's a, there's a couple of things that have helped me with this.

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And one is having the opportunity to sit at the feet of global Christians where, where when you

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have persecution from the outside and this kind of refining that happens, you may have different

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denominations, but they work really closely together. And, and you really have no social

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advantage to being a Christian. There's nothing to be gained in the Indian culture, or, or other

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cultures that I've been in, Mongolian, there's just different places where, like, you gain nothing

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by being a Christfather, except that, that you have a savior and you have a group in a community

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that you can go through suffering together, right? I also think that in Western Christianity,

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we are reacting again in a way that says, I believe that God and Satan get blamed for a

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heck of a lot of things that human beings do, right? So, so like, like, are we really reacting

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against God and faith? Or are we reacting against kind of a broken model of Christianity in the

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Western world? Yeah. Right. So it's, it's, it's, it's, I'm tying the narrow down, we're heading

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a direction here, but what are they actually reacting against? And so when you have a Christian

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artist, right, or a top leader that is failing, are they reacting to a true faith, or they're

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reacting to some kind of construct that's been created in Western? Well, then you have to look

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to the people who were, who looked up to those people growing up and are now questioning their

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faith because, you know, the leader I looked up to can't believe. So maybe I can't either. So you

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have those people on that end that you're, you know, you're looking up to the people. It wasn't

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necessarily, you know, that God failed them, right? But somebody that they were looking up to had

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failed, had failed, right? And, and chose to walk away. But what you find out is, and this is,

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this is a thing I fear quite honestly, you begin to find out that actually your faith and your

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trust was actually in a per, like was in a human, was an human being, right? And by the way,

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all the structures that you were surrounded with did nothing but to A okay that, like to, to,

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to reinforce that or to give that a positive thing as opposed to saying, you know, and hopefully,

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you know, Tyler, the, well, and Andy as well, like the community that the communities that we're in,

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and allegedly, allegedly, we, we say that we value mutual accountability amongst all of us,

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that no one is greater than another. It's just that we have different gifts that we're all,

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we're ministering, we're co-ministering together in community, right? But it's like, hey, your title

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of senior pastor doesn't, doesn't identify you as some sort of spiritual superhero, right over and

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against the person sitting in the pew. And one thing working in that favor is there actually

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isn't even an advantage for me now to say that I'm a pastor. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Like I saw a stream

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just the other day, someone said, so what do you think the hottest part of hell is reserved for?

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And someone said a mega church pastor. And then then the dog piling becomes like there's no,

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like there is, in some respect, our culture, a kind of a devaluing of authority to begin with.

373
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:57,600
Well, and I even wondered myself recently, you know, when I was applying for a, a, a

374
00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:02,640
secular non-for-profit job, which, which I'm in now, you know, my resume had pastor just

375
00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:07,440
emblazoned all over it. That's what I've done for the last 17 years. And it was the first time,

376
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:10,320
I mean, I had this interesting feeling of the first time where it's like,

377
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:19,120
like this, this history, this role, what I have done doesn't carry with it an inherent value

378
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:23,200
outside of the context that I, that I've been in. Like that's kind of a hum, I mean,

379
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:28,000
number one humbling thing, but I think it's actually, it's much more, it's much more the

380
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:32,240
posture in which we should walk. And, and, and I think maybe the pendulum is swinging a little

381
00:37:32,240 --> 00:37:36,160
bit there in that direction. The other thing that you said, Tyler, though, I want to point out

382
00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:40,240
our second and third world Christians deconstructing faith.

383
00:37:44,240 --> 00:37:48,320
I don't know enough about that. I just, I just wonder, and I'm kind of, it's a little,

384
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:54,640
the people that I know, Tyler, the people that I know that are, are primarily white,

385
00:37:54,640 --> 00:38:00,160
evangelicals, middle upper and middle upper class. But I'm wondering too, Joel, if that's

386
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:11,120
because I think as church in America, we have less reliance necessarily on God. And by that,

387
00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:15,840
I mean, like, yeah, we're, you know, we're not necessarily relying on him for our job. We don't

388
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:21,600
see, we're not, we're not seeing a lot of times, whereas these everyday little things are faith,

389
00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:26,480
like, you know, where, you know, the church and, you know, different places outside of the US,

390
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:35,520
they're relying, I think, more on God and, and praying to God to first survival where we're

391
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:40,560
not necessarily doing that. And so maybe that's where they're not necessarily deconstructing.

392
00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:47,600
The growing church in America is actually taking place within African American and Latino groups.

393
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:51,840
I mean, I don't remember if it was Pew or Gallup, but one of the things that people aren't talking

394
00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:55,840
much about is actually one of the fastest sections of the evangelical church to grow

395
00:38:55,840 --> 00:39:01,920
is in the black African American community. Now, again, that is a different definition

396
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:06,320
of evangelicalism. One of the things that bothers me is that evangelicalism from a global

397
00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:12,240
perspective is a beautiful thing, like it's at Bevington's Quadrilateral, right? There's this

398
00:39:12,240 --> 00:39:18,400
idea that there's a high value on the cross and there's this, this expectation actually the fourth

399
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:25,200
point of Bevington's Quadrilateral is that you will act in social justice, which is an inflammatory

400
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:32,320
word for American evangelicals. But the reality is being also needs to be connected to doing.

401
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:40,480
So in the global world, what I've experienced is an extreme reliance on the Lord for daily

402
00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:48,800
provisions, for protection, and for strength and suffering. And so maybe some of this too that

403
00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:55,680
we're dealing with. And again, please hear me. If you are a survivor of spiritual abuse, sexual

404
00:39:55,680 --> 00:40:03,040
abuse, infidelity of any kind from leadership, like you have the right to be upset and to not

405
00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:06,880
be able to trust well. And you've used the term spiritual abuse. I just think for our listeners

406
00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:10,000
because that can mean a lot of different things to people. What comes to your mind? Like, how would

407
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:16,480
you define that experience? Well, I think the simplest way is to simply say, like, I think that

408
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:22,640
it's a power over. Well, you kind of get this sense that like, we all know that we do things that are

409
00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:29,600
wrong, right? We all do things wrong. But it's when somebody who is in power over you then comes

410
00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:35,200
and shames you, trying to get you back into the kingdom or to behave a certain way through shame

411
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:39,440
instead of love. And sometimes leveraging like eternal consequence for that, right? Like when

412
00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:44,560
there's like, I think that's a that's a scary power to have, right? When you're when you're

413
00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:48,960
saying do this or or you're going to be you're going to burn, right?

414
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:55,040
Yeah, one of my friends in high school, and it's, you know, he his girlfriend got

415
00:40:55,840 --> 00:41:02,400
pregnant out of red lock and someone slid the birth announcement under the door of the

416
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:09,520
administration and that didn't go well. You know, and I always thought to myself, you know,

417
00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:14,720
I think the Christian response to that should have been, what can we do to position this couple

418
00:41:14,720 --> 00:41:16,480
for the greatest success? Right.

419
00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:21,360
Is that a shame, shame guilt and kind of a power play?

420
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:25,920
So these experiences for me have given me a real high sense of justice. Like I

421
00:41:26,720 --> 00:41:31,840
I have no tolerance for like sexual abuse within the church. Like that's

422
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:38,800
that's something that like 90% of the time, any kind of victim that comes forward, there's nothing

423
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:43,760
to be gained by coming forward. And we just know it's probably true to some degree.

424
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:49,200
So it's interesting to me that that that Baptist side of me that's very black and

425
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:51,920
white kind of rears its head in those moments. Yeah.

426
00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:57,680
But the other side of it, though, is just to come open handed and recognize that the Lord

427
00:41:57,680 --> 00:42:04,160
is the judge, not me. And that means I can still recognize evil, I can stalker nice wrongdoing.

428
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:10,560
But but it's not really up to me to kind of bring that home.

429
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:16,320
So I want to talk about, and this is a thing I think all of us with with kiddos. I mean,

430
00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:25,760
let me see, Tyler, your eldest is a freshman in college. The twins are 10, 10, 9, about 10.

431
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:30,000
So yeah, two girls, three boys and two girls. So you've got the whole, you've got a whole

432
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:37,360
wide range. Andy and I, you know, kind of similar, similar areas. Andy's oldest is

433
00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:40,320
just passes driving test, by the way, that a boy.

434
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:44,880
If you want to watch a fun time, but let the Hartford kids get together with the layman.

435
00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:52,960
Oh, boy. In our church gathering, the big gathering, we call them like the roving

436
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:56,720
feral herd kid. They're like feral animals. That's right.

437
00:42:56,720 --> 00:43:03,600
Yeah. Tyler, as you think about your kids and their faith formation,

438
00:43:04,240 --> 00:43:14,640
moving forward as a father and as a leader, knowing that, you know, and just for the viewers,

439
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:20,000
the listeners reference, Tyler is all this daughter cadence. I mean, she's, she's,

440
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:24,720
she's in college today to be a nurse right now at Bethlehem University and already,

441
00:43:24,720 --> 00:43:30,720
like Tyler and Janessa have raised thinkers. They've raised, and it's very clear to me,

442
00:43:30,720 --> 00:43:36,800
like critical thinkers, which, which can be, can be dain, it can feel dangerous, right?

443
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:39,760
It can feel dangerous because they ask all the hard questions.

444
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:45,120
Well, cadence, cadence actually just told us that she told her, her nursing dean that she was

445
00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:50,240
bored and chemistry class and like, don't do that. They don't mince words.

446
00:43:50,240 --> 00:43:54,640
Yeah. And so, but like, as you think about your kids and you think about like,

447
00:43:56,000 --> 00:44:00,640
the day that they might need to, like the feel like they need to deconstruct or whatever it is,

448
00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:07,120
or have a, what would be your hope in terms of how they would go about that?

449
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:13,600
Maybe the questions that they would ask or the general posture that they would take in that,

450
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:18,800
in that process. Because as we said, we're not demonizing, like I've heard plenty of conservative

451
00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:22,800
evangelicals, like, like deconstruction is this like, is this like four letter word?

452
00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:27,120
I think everybody needs to deconstruct. At some level, you have to, at some point,

453
00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:31,440
own the faith for yourself. Right. I think, yeah. I mean, if you dig in and try to figure out why

454
00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:36,000
you believe what you believe, because I think a lot of us were raised in, you know, not, not

455
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:39,840
everyone, I can't speak for them, but like, you know, us, at least, we're, you know, raising the

456
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:44,320
church. And I think at some point, you have to make that faith your own, not your parents,

457
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:47,520
because if you don't, I think that's when you're going to lose it and go, I don't really believe

458
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:54,240
in anything because it's not really my own faith. And when you sit and make that your own faith,

459
00:44:54,240 --> 00:45:00,160
I think that's, that's where, yeah, it strengthens it. So, so I guess I needed to make a point earlier

460
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:06,880
that I dropped. I am so thankful that I went through my wrestling. So like, I remember accepting

461
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:13,600
Christ, you know, as a young child, when I was 12, I spent many nights crying, kind of this deep

462
00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:20,640
existential despair, you know, that every teenager goes through at some level. And then in my 20s.

463
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:25,120
But, you know, social media didn't exist at that time. And that's a point I wanted to make. You

464
00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:31,920
guys talk about technology and its role on people's brains and relationship. You know, there is

465
00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:36,160
something to be said about, and please hear me, if you're deconstructing right now and you're

466
00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:43,680
posting your journey online, just be aware that there's a dopamine hit that comes from getting

467
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:49,520
a like on that post. And in a large number of people saying, yes, that's where I'm at. And you

468
00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:54,720
feel like you've built a community. But in the long run, a lot of times that community is not

469
00:45:54,720 --> 00:46:01,680
concerned about your end goal and where you're going, you're saying, I'm there with you. And I

470
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:08,640
am thankful that I don't have this like, like these markers where I put down a stake on social

471
00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:15,760
media that I believe this certain way and these people are all bleeps. And then like, I have no

472
00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:23,520
way to take it back, right? Right. To some extent, I think deconstruction at a healthy level,

473
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:30,000
need to take place within a group of caring, understanding friends who may not be where

474
00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:35,440
you're at, or maybe already walked away from the faith. But when you're when you're doing that on

475
00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:43,280
social media and publicly, you know, maybe I'll end it with, in seminary, they teach you that

476
00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:49,760
human sexuality is the same side, it's a different side of the same coin as intimacy with the Lord.

477
00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:54,880
And so I don't go around explaining all the intimate moments that I go through with my wife.

478
00:46:54,880 --> 00:47:00,240
Thank you. Good, bad, and ugly. Sinister is going, praise be to God. Although she wouldn't put it

479
00:47:00,240 --> 00:47:06,160
past me in some cases. But then the other side is like, so, but your intimacy with the Lord,

480
00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:10,160
like there are things that the Holy Spirit says to me that I'm not going to share with just anybody.

481
00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:14,880
Sure. You know, there's an intimacy in that relationship. And that's kind of how we tried,

482
00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:19,120
you know, you know, model with the kids. I talked to my wife before I came in and said,

483
00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:24,320
now, honey, you know, do we have any secret sauce or anything with raising the kids? Like seven kids,

484
00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:30,080
you know, it just managed chaos. Let's just admit it, right? Like, it's herding cats half the time

485
00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:36,000
a week ago by and you're like, hey, you know what, everyone's clothed and fed. We didn't go to the

486
00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:42,720
ER. Hey, that's a win. We are winning. Yeah. So there are two foundational verses that have really

487
00:47:42,720 --> 00:47:47,840
hit me as a believer. And this is what I've tried to do with my kids. And in Mark 924,

488
00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:52,000
you got the story of the father whose son keeps throwing himself in the fire. Like,

489
00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:58,240
we have parents that may listen to have children that may be physical disabilities,

490
00:47:58,240 --> 00:48:02,480
mental disabilities, relational disabilities. I mean, there's just stuff that they just need

491
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:09,760
healing for. Some parents are just scrambling for help. And you know, I don't know. I just

492
00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:19,840
prayed so much. Like, Lord, I believe, help my unbelief. That's just a cornerstone of my faith

493
00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:24,960
and my kids kind of know it. Like, there are areas we believe and areas we don't believe. And we're

494
00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:29,840
really working hard for the Lord to give us some answers. The other one is from John 6, 28-29,

495
00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:34,960
where the disciples say, what do we do to do the work that the Lord requires? And Jesus responds,

496
00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:40,560
the work of God is this, believe in the one whom He's sent. And it feels like when we kind of like

497
00:48:40,560 --> 00:48:47,200
put that block in place, a lot of other things fall into place. You know, belief leads to doing

498
00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:52,480
and doing leads to belief. And we just keep building on that. So I'm just really thankful

499
00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:58,080
that I didn't have social media kind of like marking the moment that I, you know, ranted and

500
00:48:58,080 --> 00:49:05,840
raved against the things that were very real. As far as other things with my kids, I just actually

501
00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:11,120
said something online tonight to a friend. I said, I'm actually kind of glad I made underparent than

502
00:49:11,120 --> 00:49:16,800
overparent. Like, I know what underparent looks like. And those are the ones that are running

503
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:24,480
around like making snow angels and blower on the aisle of the grocery store. Or one child,

504
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:28,400
I remember seeing of another family that climbed into the yogurt section of the cooler,

505
00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:34,720
shut the door and started eating yogurt. But you know, what I mean is like, I don't ever want to be

506
00:49:34,720 --> 00:49:40,560
that attack helicopter parent who also then behaves the same way towards their children,

507
00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:45,760
where they're not allowed to ask a question. Granted, you know, in my home, there are times

508
00:49:45,760 --> 00:49:50,320
when you kind of have to be a military commander with seven kids, like you can't just let everybody

509
00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:58,320
do their thing. But I've really tried to kind of be a little more open handed, allow them to

510
00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:04,800
ask questions. I was in an environment, didn't allow a lot of questions. I've tried to shield them

511
00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:10,960
from the details of bad things in the church. But I've always been very open about what we're

512
00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:16,560
going through. Cadence, my oldest is studying to be a nurse, but wants to be a medical mission,

513
00:50:16,560 --> 00:50:24,480
and my next daughter wants to be in full-time ministry. And to me, I've not hidden the good,

514
00:50:24,480 --> 00:50:31,920
bad, and the ugly from them. You know, I've been very open about my doubts, my fears,

515
00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:39,200
and my frustrations, and still tied the love people through them. My last pastoral assignment

516
00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:45,360
was absolutely amazing, wonderful people, still love my peeps at pleasant view. But you know,

517
00:50:45,360 --> 00:50:51,040
people say stupid things and do really hurtful things to you. And they never, they don't even

518
00:50:51,040 --> 00:51:00,560
realize it. Or if they can't get to you, they'll do it to your kids. And yet, overall, I've heard

519
00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:09,920
way worse horror stories. Maybe another concrete example would be, I love the arts, my background

520
00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:14,800
is theater and art, and I love music. And I remember when I was in the Christian school,

521
00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:20,800
they showed these movies called Hell's Bells. And if you listened to Rock and Roll and Hell,

522
00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:25,200
and everything played backward, just saying we're sort of going to hell.

523
00:51:27,280 --> 00:51:31,680
And everybody dies young, you know? Yeah, right.

524
00:51:32,720 --> 00:51:38,880
Just tell that to the Rolling Stones. But I remember sitting there with my friends going,

525
00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:45,840
holy cow, what is this? Like, how can I listen to more of it? You know, like, it's like,

526
00:51:45,840 --> 00:51:50,640
it's like Adam and Eve, right? Like, like you fence off the tree and suddenly like,

527
00:51:50,640 --> 00:51:55,280
I want that tree, all the fruit around me, but I want it from that tree. So we just,

528
00:51:55,280 --> 00:52:02,960
we just listened to a lot of different styles of music. And we talk about it. I enjoy the

529
00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:10,640
creativity. Let's be honest. Some non-believing musicians and songwriters actually may be better

530
00:52:11,760 --> 00:52:18,000
theologians than some of the current praise music we listen to. Maybe one more story.

531
00:52:18,000 --> 00:52:22,400
Sure, absolutely. We always ask all kinds of like crazy questions about the Bible. Like,

532
00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:27,200
you know, the Bible is pretty R rated. Right. I remember when my grade school daughter,

533
00:52:27,200 --> 00:52:32,000
the oldest one, was reading through the Bible. And we said, oh my goodness, you're reading through

534
00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:36,400
the Bible. And she goes, yeah, I'm already to like halfway through the Old Testament. And we're

535
00:52:36,400 --> 00:52:42,400
like, oh my gosh, like, I have an illustrated Genesis. And it says it's like rated R, right?

536
00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:46,880
Every verse is illustrated. Right. And my daughter and I, Kate, and just goes out to you, we're

537
00:52:46,880 --> 00:52:52,320
going to write a book about all the really weird stories of the Bible. But if you ever want to

538
00:52:52,320 --> 00:52:57,120
read it, somebody's already written in his name is Luke Harrington. And it's called Murder Bears,

539
00:52:57,120 --> 00:53:02,640
Moonshine and Mayhem. And I just a great book about the Bible. That's awesome.

540
00:53:02,640 --> 00:53:10,320
Yeah, I think there's a, and I have seen this, I've seen this in your guys's family, Tyler, and

541
00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:18,640
and I really think having open, honest conversations, the dainty deconstruction goes

542
00:53:18,640 --> 00:53:25,120
wrong when things are kept in the dark, when things are too risky to talk about when it was,

543
00:53:25,120 --> 00:53:29,040
or when, or when mom and dad are too, where they haven't worked through their own stuff

544
00:53:29,040 --> 00:53:32,720
and they're too uncomfortable to discuss. So, so today, Julie,

545
00:53:34,080 --> 00:53:39,600
gave us a sermon here at Clinton frame, and it was on intergenerational relationships. And I

546
00:53:39,600 --> 00:53:43,600
think that that goes, speaks to this too, because I think that can really help if you're having

547
00:53:43,600 --> 00:53:47,760
an inter intergenerational relationship, because not only are you able to speak to people that

548
00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:51,600
are younger than you, but then you can have people who have had way more life experience

549
00:53:51,600 --> 00:53:56,480
speak into your life too. And especially if they're willing to be open and honest being like,

550
00:53:56,480 --> 00:54:01,040
yo, I had a really terrible time in, you know, my faith, and I had to step back and

551
00:54:01,040 --> 00:54:05,040
stuff. And you can talk with them about that. And before you're experiencing it yourself,

552
00:54:05,040 --> 00:54:09,520
I think that's yeah, I think of Andy, I think of people here at this, at this church here at

553
00:54:09,520 --> 00:54:14,640
Clinton frame who, who are, who've been walking with Jesus a lot longer than I have, and who have

554
00:54:14,640 --> 00:54:18,960
gone through an immense amount of suffering and pain and things like that. And they're still

555
00:54:18,960 --> 00:54:25,440
following after. And I'll be, there is nothing like talking with them about their, about their faith

556
00:54:27,200 --> 00:54:32,080
when you are having a little bit of, you're feeling a little bit sideways spiritually,

557
00:54:32,080 --> 00:54:38,320
you know, because you're like the, the, that, the perspective that it, that it brings. And

558
00:54:38,320 --> 00:54:42,480
that's why you just, I, I don't want to say it for anybody who's struggling with faith right now

559
00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:48,320
or struggling with what they believe. That is not a battle for you to fight alone. Like that

560
00:54:48,320 --> 00:54:52,960
isn't, that is not something for you to, yeah, to, that's something to work out. And by the way,

561
00:54:52,960 --> 00:54:58,320
I would, I would say, talk to somebody, because here's the thing, when I, I know what I'm going

562
00:54:58,320 --> 00:55:04,800
to, when I've ended a bad place spiritually and I am like about ready to write, write the church

563
00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:11,200
off or whatever it has been or whatever, there are certain people that I know that if I talk to them,

564
00:55:11,200 --> 00:55:15,440
they are, they are going to lovingly like slap me upside the head and they're going to say,

565
00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:20,720
okay, let's get, okay, let's take, let's take an honest, unbiased look at this whole thing,

566
00:55:20,720 --> 00:55:24,480
right? And then there are other people that I know I could go to who will just cheer me on in

567
00:55:24,480 --> 00:55:29,680
the direction that I'm, that I'm heading, right? So a little bit that has to do with some intellectual

568
00:55:29,680 --> 00:55:36,960
honesty on our, on our part about who is it, who is it that we're surrounding ourselves with or

569
00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:41,200
what direction are we actually wanting to go? If you want to be an honest deconstructionist

570
00:55:41,200 --> 00:55:46,480
and just go where the, go where the facts leader or whatever, let me, let me invite you to that.

571
00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:50,400
Let me invite you to that because I, I firmly, I stand here firmly to say, listen, truth needs no

572
00:55:50,400 --> 00:55:55,280
pillars. You know, you shall know the truth and it will set, and it will set you free. And I think

573
00:55:55,280 --> 00:55:59,920
that's ultimately, we're, you know, we've had a big conversation here. I don't think we've actually

574
00:55:59,920 --> 00:56:06,400
overtly said it. We're looking to a person, not a religion. We're looking to a person that, that

575
00:56:06,400 --> 00:56:12,640
was, he just saves religion kill. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And, and, and that's the thing that I

576
00:56:12,640 --> 00:56:22,000
think has been so frequently lost in all of this. I have no, as a pastor, as a, just as a believer,

577
00:56:22,000 --> 00:56:29,520
I have, I have zero conviction of calling, you know, that I want to call people to a religion.

578
00:56:29,520 --> 00:56:33,360
Like, like that's, that's not, that's not where I'm starting. I want to call them to the,

579
00:56:33,360 --> 00:56:38,320
to the person that has changed my life, that's changed all of our lives, that's made a

580
00:56:38,320 --> 00:56:41,760
significant, that's made a significant difference and then walk it out from there.

581
00:56:43,120 --> 00:56:47,280
And, and I just, I wish that, I mean, I think that's probably where my biggest,

582
00:56:47,280 --> 00:56:51,280
biggest burden on my heart is I wish that was people. I wish that was the more common experience.

583
00:56:51,840 --> 00:56:56,960
I wish that's where, where it all started. And that's, you know, it's so interesting,

584
00:56:56,960 --> 00:57:00,960
like my parents, when they came out of, when they came out of fundamentalism, what they were left

585
00:57:00,960 --> 00:57:05,200
with was just Jesus. Like that, that was, that was it. And so that's how they always, that's

586
00:57:05,200 --> 00:57:11,360
how they raised my brother and I. It was like, here's the non-negotiable, Christ. That, that's

587
00:57:11,360 --> 00:57:16,400
the, that's non-negotiable. What, what he has done in space, in time, who he, and who he is,

588
00:57:16,400 --> 00:57:25,040
all the other stuff, have, go crazy, have fun, you know, like, explore all you want. So I just think,

589
00:57:26,720 --> 00:57:30,240
you know, Tyler, that's so much of, that's so much of your story that you were, and honestly,

590
00:57:30,240 --> 00:57:34,320
that you, you've found the, I think the freedom and you've modeled the freedom and doing that.

591
00:57:35,760 --> 00:57:39,360
Man, I'm glad you, I'm glad you shared with us. Thanks for hanging out. That's good.

592
00:57:39,360 --> 00:57:44,480
We have one more thing. Oh, yes, we do. Now it's time for the dudes and dads pop quiz.

593
00:57:44,480 --> 00:57:48,160
All right. So if you've never joined us, the pop quiz is the time where we just pepper,

594
00:57:48,720 --> 00:57:53,040
and I'm literally pepper, Tyler with questions. Nothing. I have a whole

595
00:57:54,320 --> 00:57:58,320
right. I have a whole deck of cards here that I'm asking from Joel. I don't know what you're

596
00:57:58,320 --> 00:58:02,400
asking from, but I'm, yeah, I got you. I'm pulling my list up. I'll go ahead and start.

597
00:58:02,400 --> 00:58:06,960
Thank you. All right. Tyler, who is your favorite hero of fiction?

598
00:58:09,200 --> 00:58:11,520
Yeah, see, yeah, I can't prepare.

599
00:58:16,160 --> 00:58:19,920
Fiction Boko movie. It just doesn't matter. So either one.

600
00:58:21,680 --> 00:58:26,960
I love Jason Bourne. Oh, yeah. That's a good one. I've often said that Tyler really is,

601
00:58:26,960 --> 00:58:31,440
Tyler is kind of my pastoral Jason Bourne. And that's, I don't, most people don't hear that

602
00:58:31,440 --> 00:58:38,160
often enough. I have amnesia all the time. Oh, that's awesome. And I have some killer kung fu

603
00:58:38,160 --> 00:58:44,640
moves. Yes. Yeah. Uh-huh. Better stretch first. Tyler, let me ask you, what is your favorite

604
00:58:44,640 --> 00:58:53,200
outdoor activity? Oh, I know this is maybe cheating a little bit, but I love the barbecue.

605
00:58:53,200 --> 00:58:58,320
Like I love the hook actually over an open fire. I have a stack of a cherry wood

606
00:58:59,360 --> 00:59:04,400
out behind my barn. And I love to do so different kinds of meat over the cherry wood.

607
00:59:04,400 --> 00:59:07,200
So when are we getting together for barbecue? 100%

608
00:59:07,920 --> 00:59:10,720
get it out. Let's get it on the calendar. Low and slow.

609
00:59:11,920 --> 00:59:16,320
All right, Tyler, if you could send a message to the entire world, what would you say in 30 seconds?

610
00:59:16,320 --> 00:59:27,200
Oh, the saddest thing I ever did see was a woodpecker pecking at a plastic tree.

611
00:59:28,160 --> 00:59:32,080
Friend, he said, as he turned to me, things ain't as sweet as they used to be.

612
00:59:34,320 --> 00:59:38,880
But they actually are pretty sweet. I didn't see that coming. Oh, wow.

613
00:59:38,880 --> 00:59:46,880
It's all Silverstein's. Man, such a renaissance, man. Tyler, speaking of food, we'll do this.

614
00:59:46,880 --> 00:59:50,560
What is the weirdest food that you've ever eaten? And because you've been places,

615
00:59:50,560 --> 00:59:53,680
so I'm just assuming you've been just some stuff.

616
01:00:00,720 --> 01:00:03,600
So I was eating this amazing soup in Northern Italy,

617
01:00:03,600 --> 01:00:10,960
and it had some of the best noodles I've ever had. And towards the end as the soup started

618
01:00:10,960 --> 01:00:18,000
getting cold, it had kind of a funky barnyard taste to it. And this guy sitting next to me goes,

619
01:00:18,000 --> 01:00:26,000
so are you loving this pigskin soup? And it was this shredded pigskin that looked like noodles.

620
01:00:26,000 --> 01:00:30,800
And it was something. Best of survival and clearly, best of survival.

621
01:00:30,800 --> 01:00:34,800
There was also the meal where the main dish was donkey. Oh.

622
01:00:34,800 --> 01:00:42,080
And so my wife's 82-year-old grandfather, firm believer in Jesus,

623
01:00:42,080 --> 01:00:46,800
when he heard the story, he turned to me, so what you're telling me is you've eaten,

624
01:00:47,600 --> 01:00:54,880
this is a family show. It was very awkward. I'm sure.

625
01:00:54,880 --> 01:01:01,120
Oh, man. All right. My last question is, what would be your best day ever?

626
01:01:02,400 --> 01:01:04,560
Janice, if you're listening. Oh, here it comes.

627
01:01:04,560 --> 01:01:10,560
I just, we just, we just did it today. We went to Castanadas. Oh, yeah.

628
01:01:10,560 --> 01:01:18,240
Because the local Gaussian Mexican eatery where they make homemade gorditas from scratch,

629
01:01:18,240 --> 01:01:23,040
and they made tortillas from scratch. So if you're listening from Castanadas,

630
01:01:23,040 --> 01:01:27,920
go out on the town, have some of that. And then what's the Mexican ice cream place down over?

631
01:01:27,920 --> 01:01:33,600
Oh, Tropicana. Mm-hmm. The Tropicana. Yeah. Yeah. I'd like to say then a movie or something,

632
01:01:33,600 --> 01:01:37,680
but you know, they just really aren't hitting very many good movies lately. Okay.

633
01:01:39,600 --> 01:01:44,400
Tyler, what is, can you name for us a contest that you've won in your lifetime?

634
01:01:44,400 --> 01:01:56,640
Oh, have you ever won a contest? Yeah. I won the best. Gaussian had a competition for salsa

635
01:01:58,320 --> 01:02:05,760
downtown and made some homemade salsa for that. Yeah. And it won. Nice. I was pretty excited

636
01:02:05,760 --> 01:02:12,160
about that. As around these parts, that's a big swing. Right. It's a big swing. You know, white

637
01:02:12,160 --> 01:02:17,840
male from central Maine in a town that has some of the best Mexican restaurant.

638
01:02:19,200 --> 01:02:26,000
Hey, that's a nice flex. I'll take it. Awesome. Tyler, thanks buddy. Oh man, it's been an honor.

639
01:02:26,000 --> 01:02:30,720
You successfully passed the Dude's and Dad's Pop quiz way to go. Nice job. Nice job. Thanks for

640
01:02:30,720 --> 01:02:35,120
being on. We appreciate you coming on and being willing to be open and share with us just a

641
01:02:35,120 --> 01:02:40,320
little bit more about your face and where you've been. Great to be here. Guys, hey, as always,

642
01:02:40,320 --> 01:02:45,920
you can send over your comments, thoughts for other shows, all the good stuff over at

643
01:02:45,920 --> 01:02:50,880
dudesanddanspodcast at gmail.com. It's a nice song you got there. Thank you.

644
01:02:51,600 --> 01:02:57,040
Dudesanddanspodcast.com. It's got the show notes, all the good stuff over everything and we'd love

645
01:02:57,040 --> 01:03:05,680
to have you send us a voicemail 574-213-8702. As always, it won't wake us up. We will listen to

646
01:03:05,680 --> 01:03:09,200
it and maybe sometime short on the show. If it's a good message, we like to like to put it on the

647
01:03:09,200 --> 01:03:13,120
show. Challenge us. Give us a good message. Give us a good message. Call in. Friends,

648
01:03:13,120 --> 01:03:16,880
thanks for tuning in. Thanks for hanging out. We look forward to joining you next time. And until

649
01:03:16,880 --> 01:03:42,240
then, we wish you grace and peace. Be sure to share the podcast on your favorite social media channels.