Alright. Welcome to the podcast. I'm Darlyn Childress,

and this is Become a Call Mama. And today, we're gonna

talk about grief. And I have invited my friend and my grief

coach on to navigate This conversation

and to talk about navigating grief as a parent and

especially around the holidays. And this episode is coming out on

Thanksgiving Day, which can feel kinda weird.

I wanted to acknowledge and honor the fact that we are sometimes in

pain even when we are doing celebratory things.

And so that's why Leslie is here. So, Leslie, Gelfand,

welcome. Introduce yourself, and then I'll share a little bit about my

experience as a in grief recovery. Thank you, Darlyn. Thanks so much

for having me on your podcast. We've been talking about this for a while, so

I'm so excited to be here. I'm a grief recovery specialist.

I help people come to terms with loss,

whether that's death, illness,

Divorce there's over 40 different kinds of loss that people can

experience that can cause grief, and I help them navigate

through that and become Complete with the pain

associated with the loss. So beautiful. I

love that you mentioned that There's so many different types of loss. It's

not just death, loss of a relationship, loss of a career.

Health. Healthyness. Answers.

Yeah. Yeah. So many. What does one do with sadness? It's like,

what does one do with loss? Right? Mhmm.

Yeah. I I have had a lot of loss in my life, but the first

time I really experienced death was when someone close to me

died by suicide. And I was

just, beside myself, and I had no idea what to do. I'd

never experienced that That level of pain so suddenly,

so tragically. And my first thought was, I have to call

Leslie. I had

other people to call, of course, but I was like, this pain is so intense,

so big, so awful, and giant. I didn't know what to do with it. And

I just said, help. And you guided me through such a

beautiful process to mourn that

loss and to you really Normalized a lot of my

experience. That's what we're gonna talk about today, normalizing what it is like.

And, And then we went on to work on not just that loss,

but also the loss of my mom because she, she died of Alzheimer's,

and, she was sick for 5 years. So

some of the people in my world, you know, who listen to the

podcast, They are in that panini place. Right?

They're in that part of their lives where they have children

that there's caregiving too. And they have maybe aging

parents or parents who are actively dying. Mhmm.

And, Those are just it's a really difficult place

to be in. So I'm so grateful for all that you've taught me, and I

hope that we can help some people today on this episode.

Me too. Me too. Yeah. So we're gonna talk a little

bit about grief, what it is, And then kinda go

through what anticipatory grief is, gonna

label that. Such a beautiful way to think about When someone is

ill or when you can see that a loss is coming Mhmm. We're

gonna talk about how to how to handle that and then what happens when somebody

Does pass away kinda what with that result, what what create what's created in you

and the emotional experience and all that. And then

specifically around the holidays, Not just Thanksgiving, but also, you

know, through the winter holidays and birthdays and all of those

milestones. And then just your work as a grief recovery coach kinda

highlighting what that is. So there we go.

Alright. Let's get into it. So I'd love for you to tell us kind of

you started to talk about it lost, but, like, what is grief? Like, what is

it? Well, first, it's the normal

and natural reaction to a loss.

A lot of times, people Can't explain why they are feeling

the way they feel or think more importantly, they think I

shouldn't be feeling this way. It was only a

job. Mhmm. It was only a pet. It

was only a relationship I didn't wanna be in anyway.

It was a person that I didn't even like. Right? So why am I

feeling this way? That is our natural response to loss

Because we are having those conflicting feelings that are

caused by the end or the change of a pattern

or behavior that was familiar to us. So they are caused by the

end or change of a familiar pattern or

behavior. Yeah. Even if there's relief in

it. Like, my mom dying of Alzheimer's,

like, it was, it was a mercy. Right? Yeah. Like, that that she

was no longer trapped, You know? Mhmm. And and all of

that in her body. So there was, like, relief and, you know,

someone is is elderly and you kinda go, okay. Well, it's great. You know?

They're, You know, they're not out of pain, but that's a way

also to bypass the emotion of, like, actually, this is affecting me because this is

a Change. I like how you're talking about it, that the end of how things

were, like, whether you were caregiving or whatever that

relationship was. I would love for you to talk about that, like, How we

can sometimes feel differently about someone who we really relied on

or someone who we didn't rely on. Can you share the difference there? Right. So

when we have someone that we cared about deeply and we had a

positive relationship. Right? Grief can show up,

and it can feel like Reaching out to that person who's always

been there for you only to discover that when you need

them one more time, They're no longer there.

Right? So you can think about the people that you've had positive

relationships with, that you have lost. That's where that

heartbreak can come in when you're like, oh, I just I

wanna call or I wanna reach out or I wanna share with

this person and then they're not there. Mhmm. When we

lose people who are less than loved ones, If

it was someone who should have been a loving person in her

life but wasn't, right, our grief still shows up, But

it's the feeling of reaching out for someone who was never there,

and then you discover that you need them one more time and they're still not

there. Right. They have still

failed you in that way. Yeah. Right? And it's

a kick in the gut either way. Right. Right. It's painful

either way. And what you were saying about your mom, you know,

especially when people who are ill or elderly

or, You know, I have some kind of chronic condition,

and there is that sense of relief, like, okay.

It's done. They're no longer in pain,

but then you feel guilty for feeling relieved

that they're gone. Right? Yes. Right. But at the same, you're

like, I'm sad, but I'm also relieved. So again, it is that those

conflicting feelings, right, of something that has

changed. Mhmm. Yeah. And we can really,

really beat ourselves up by not allowing whatever is coming.

And let's, you know, I think we can talk about that and, like, how to

take care of yourself. And it really is a lot about Being in

the relief of it because that passes, and then sometimes you're in

the the pain of it, the loss, the sorrow of they

should've, The you know, they were always with with me. They were always there for

me, and they're not there now. Or they were never there for me, and they're

still not there for me. Remembers, this is silly, but I remember when my dog

died years ago, the 1st pet that I had that I was really

close with. And then When she died and I came home, I was so

used to going through pain and loss with her. She was like

my companion animal. You know? And and I was just sitting on the

couch like, Wait. I don't know how to do this without you.

Mhmm. Mhmm. And that happens, I think, when we're in that

pain. Right. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.

I don't know how to do this without you. Well, let's talk about

anticipatory growth because I do think I think this is one thing that comes up

a lot, at least with my clients who work with me, is

that they are in that panini. Like, I think of a panini. Right?

It's not just a sandwich. It's, like, hot. Like, you're, like, pressed. You know? Because

it's Yeah. Yeah. It's like, let me get a griddle, and let me turn

up the heat And put 2 pieces of bread together and smush it and

then pressure. Yeah. All the pressure. Right? So

beyond sandwich. Right? It's this is there's a lot of pressure. Lot of heat. Yeah.

This happens different times. My kids were 9 and 11 when my mom

was diagnosed with Alzheimer's, so they were, like, later elementary, but

still really In those years of needing me, sometimes

it happens. Your parent becomes ill or needs a lot of extra care and your

kids are in in, high school. And they kinda

need you your emotional presence. Mhmm. And and you're

maybe not available Or heaven forbid when they're real little

and, you know, they've lost the opportunity to know somebody that's

close freak to you, and they need you too. Mhmm.

Let's talk about, like, anticipatory grief. Like, what what is

that? What do we call that? Why is it called that? Well, it's because

it's almost as if we're Pre grieving. Right? We're

anticipating the pain that is coming. I I think that

is a good thing. Right. I think grief is

good because it allows us to have all of those

feelings. Even better is when we're able to

Complete, right, our relationship with the grief, not with the person. We're

gonna have a relationship with that person until we take our last breath.

So we're trying to complete the relationship with the pain

and with the loss, not with the person. When we're anticipating that, we're

almost Bringing the pain to us early. But I think it

can also aid us in some ways in

preparing us. Right. There has been that debate of,

well, would you have rather someone died in an accident, you know,

suddenly and expectedly or they have a long illness, so you have time with them

and say, both suck. Yeah. The loss

is the loss. Right? Like, you know, the end or change

is there no matter how it

happened. Sometimes We are talking about how we wish

they would have died differently. Mhmm. But we're actually really just

wishing they hadn't died. Exactly. Mhmm. Yeah. Mhmm.

Yeah. But I do think that the anticipatory grief is

helpful. It it can be in terms of letting some of that pain in and,

like, almost Digesting it a little bit at a time.

Mhmm. Like, everyone's eating Thanksgiving dinner. Maybe you're listening to this

while you're cooking your turkey, and you're thinking about this big meal you're gonna eat

later. And it's like if you were to eat a little

bit of it at a time, it'd be easier to digest. Yeah. But it

still has to be eaten. Right? Grief is what it is. And also to

be aware of being present

at whatever event or even in your visits. This may

be the last time. Mhmm. My my mother-in-law

died, last year and

wasn't able to come to our Passover Seder. She

was planning, like, on the way, was not able to make the

trip, and I was so ready to be so present

For knowing this was going to be the last one and then going,

last year was the last one, and I didn't know it.

Yeah. Being aware, not all of the

time, of course, you know, but, like, if you know that this is a a

big event and you have an elderly or ill

family member or friend, just be really present and

know just enjoy all of it, you know, just all the yumminess.

Yeah. Take it all in because that is going to help you

process through it. And then if you're anticipating it, like you say, you're taking small

bites, You're also it's a little bit of preview of how you're going to manage

this, how you're going to come through it, and that can

also be very helpful. Mhmm. Right. Yeah. Well,

first, I wanted to say something about regret because I know everybody's like, oh, shit.

I didn't save her. Like, this is our 1st Thanksgiving. We had no idea

last year Mhmm. That this was gonna happen. And it's like, that's not actually

helpful No. To to, like, revisionist

history, the moment, like, think what you're inviting people to say is, like,

you might Be disappointed if you don't savor it.

But if you didn't, that just is what it was. Absolutely.

Absolutely. It's not very often that we're aware

Yeah. Of that this is going to be yeah. Take all of

those events as a gift and try to be present. It's true. Even

though, like, all the holidays, I mean, we both have kids who went away to

college this year, and you don't know the last Halloween that

they're gonna dress up or, Like, I know that you're gonna be there or whatever

the thing is. And even now, it's like, I don't know how many more

family trips we're gonna take together. Right? Right. It's

good, as much as we can to just be in the in the

present and enjoy what we have and be delighted delight in our

family. Exactly. But without the guilt or

the regret, like you said. Mhmm. You know? And especially putting that

on other family members. Well, you never know. This may be the

last year with grandpa, so you better spend time with him.

Oh, that doesn't feel good. Yeah. But then if you do have

the privilege of knowing someone is dying, then it is great to be

like, we're gonna be as present as possible. We're gonna make this

Be around them. I think about my mom's last Thanksgiving, and she couldn't

leave her care home. And we all went over there afterwards And, like,

we snuggled in her bed, and I remember just kind of feeling like, oh my

god. We're all together. Mhmm. And that really was that was her last Thanksgiving.

Mhmm. Can we talk about the kids? This 1

mom, she reached out, and she said, I'm having trouble saying to

my son, Papa is dying. Mhmm.

And I think we get, like, kinda caught

up about how to say it and what to say.

And so I wanted you to speak to that a little bit. Right.

And and oftentimes, we can also get stuck in the

diagnosis that we can keep our kids up to date on what's

happening health wise. Right? We're trying this. We're trying

that. But also when we say there's no

cure, but we don't say they're dying, kids cannot

make that connection. Adults would be able, oh, the nuance

is what they really mean is, but kids cannot understand

that. Kids tend to be able to understand

deaf around the age of 5, and they can understand that

loss. Like, it's no longer here for real. You know? It's no longer

permanent. Usually, I find best with kids up to, like, I

would say 12, just to simply say the

person's body stopped working.

There can be all sorts of reasons people's body stop working.

Sometimes their body is just old And it

stopped working. There is an illness that they

have that there isn't any

medicine that can help cure them, So their body's gonna stop

working. Sometimes accidents can cause someone's

body to stop working. Sometimes another person

Causes someone's body to stop working. Sometimes a person

makes their own body stop working.

Right. And so when they're and I find the younger children,

that's enough for them. You know? Their body stopped working. Their

heart stopped beating. That's all. But explain

to them, yes, their body is here, but it no longer works. Mhmm.

Right? If the kids are older, they'll ask more questions. Mhmm.

If they're ready, they might ask them. Right. Exactly. Why did their

how did their body stop working? You know? And they may have heard,

Oh, heart attack, cancer. They may have heard these words, but not knowing what that

means. I find that's the best place to start. It's

simple and it is absolutely true,

and it satisfies a lot of the questions. Mhmm.

Mhmm. Yeah. It's so good. I remember when our dog

died. I think this actually is, like, kind of the first a lot of times

the kids' first experience with death. Mhmm. Death is often with a

pet. Yep. And we lost a few different

pets in different developmental stages with the kids. And

it was under 5 that we lost our first one. Both kids were under

5, and we they went to school. We knew that the dog was gonna

go to animal hospital and be put down. And we said, we're

gonna take the dog to the hospital and see if the doctors can do anything.

Mhmm. And then they boys came home from school, and and we said the

doctors tried everything They could, and we we use the word dying,

and and they died. You know? The dog died, and we're very

sad. I noticed that with my kids up until

8. They just took whatever cue from me. Mhmm. You know?

Whatever emotion I was demonstrating, it's like they that's their

nervous system anyways. That's They're borrowing, so they just kinda take the

clue and cue from you. So if your emotion, I think, is

really, really intense, It's going to feel really

intense to the child. Mhmm. And we wanna

be in our feelings, but not be so demonstrative that the

child then catches. Like, we always say feelings are contagious. Mhmm. Mhmm.

It's just a lot of intensity can be hard for a kid. So we wanna

be as As processed as we can be and not just, like,

right in in the middle of the turmoil of it is my recommendation.

Yes. Yes. I agree. Part of the challenge with how

we deal with grief as a Western society is because we

were taught by our parents, Who were taught by their parents,

who were taught by the strong, you know, the best generation, the greatest generation,

right? To be strong. Don't show any emotion.

Yeah. Stay busy, gotta stay strong for the kids, eat, drink

your way through it, push through, right? We weren't taught how to healthily

Grieve. So when you're

experiencing that loss, it is an opportunity for you

to model for your children how to grieve Healthfully,

the don't let the kids see you cry is such

a myth around grief because I have

clients who thinks that their father never

cried over their mother dying. But really, he was in the bedroom

sobbing every night after, you know, the kids went to bed. But here this kid

thinks, well, my dad never cried when my mom died. Mhmm.

Right? So we don't hide our feelings when we are

happy from our children. We don't hide those feelings. I don't think

we should hide them when we are sad either. Mhmm.

Right? I think there's a way to hold the tension between You

know where you can really let go and really deeply

grieve and and be in that sad, sad place where you all

you need caregiving? Absolutely. Absolutely. Times

where I would say it's not right to do that

level of needing caregiving in front of your children because they

don't know how to help you Right. In

that moment. Yeah. They can't they are not they don't have the capacity to be

a caregiver in that way for you. So,

yes, if you need to really mourn

this, Yes. You can do that in private. You would

want to probably do that in private anyway. Right?

Yeah. But sharing, On Mother's

Day, you seem a little sad. Mama, why are you

sad? Well, it's Mother's Day, and I really miss

my mommy. I'm sad that she's not

here. And that's it. Mhmm. That's it.

It's that simple. Yeah. Even for kids who

are teenagers, right, they may know, oh,

it's mother's day. Mom doesn't seem Herself.

Oh, I bet it's because grandma's gone. Okay.

Right? Yeah. I think it's good just to say it. Yeah. Definitely, like

Absolutely. Everybody. This is a Hard day for me, and I'm

gonna take really good care of myself. And we're gonna have you know, if you're

they're littler, like, we're gonna do something to honor my mom or

honor grandma day. Mhmm. Or forget. Today's a movie

day. Today is the day that, like, you know, we're gonna eat cereal

because I'm gonna take care of myself. And modeling

that, I think the idea and I'm not gonna belabor it, but it's like, I'm

going to take care of myself. I'm gonna express my feelings. I'm gonna

process this. I'm a full grown up. I can do

it. Mhmm. And I'm can do it in in the presence of my children. My

children are not responsible for moms Absolutely.

Care. Absolutely. I think it's really important to clarify that. Absolutely. Yeah.

Yeah. Because I think sometimes we cling to our kids a little bit when we're

in pain or, like, You know? And and it and we're almost, like,

using them to cope Mhmm. As a comfort. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. They're not our stuffed animals. Right.

Right. Right. And their cuddles and kisses do make us feel

better, But that's not their job. Yeah? Yeah. Yeah. We

yeah. We can get get what we we need from them, but relying on it.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's also important to use the

word dying or died. I agree. People have always,

like, Passed away or moved on or

I mean, sometimes I use the word transition in my work as a a deaf

doula, but that is That is a different situation,

but I think a lot of times in our society too, we

think if we bring it up, We're bringing it to us.

Right? Oh, fucking angel icon. Like, I don't wanna say

die because Something might hear. The

universe might hear and and speed it up. Like a superstition.

Okay. Well, we're not gonna tell people. If you have a superstition, you just keep

on with that. Yep. But I think if you're

doing it to protect your kids from this language

Mhmm. Its Nuance is confusing. I think you addressed that. It's like

Right. Live, die, good, bad. The the binaries live

within them. It it's Actually easier for them. They don't

have a lot of gray in general. That requires abstract thinking. Doesn't

even come online till 12 or 13. So

Thinking about what language they actually need or what serves

them, it's Mhmm. Probably better to be more direct. I've always used The word dying

or Yeah. She died last year. Mhmm. Yeah. Absolutely.

It does make people uncomfortable. They like to use passed away. Mhmm.

What are some, like, things that you see in your practice

where I always think, like, adaptive, maladaptive? Like, some

strategies that we use to cope with intense

emotions that maybe are fine a little bit here and

there. But, like, if you played them out too long, it's unhealthy.

Right. So what what do you see or, like, what kind of

hap happens to people when they're experiencing either they're

anticipating someone dying or they've actually died? Oral loss like divorce, I think,

can really apply here too. Right. So

we want to our need is to kind of distract

our mind and our body from all of these big feelings that are coming

forward. So exercise, eating and

drinking, Binge watching TV,

scrolling on social media, gaming, shopping,

staying at the office really late, right? And, like you said, all of these

things in moderation, totally fine. In fact, your

brain needs a break. Right? And your heart

needs a break from feeling this pain. So

sometimes we do need to decompress and check out. When it

can become a problem is when it

is fanatic exercise, When we

are overeating, you know, like, trying to fill that

hole in our body that's in our heart With

junk food or food, drinking to the point of passing

out, shopping beyond our means, becoming a workaholic,

that's When that can become, a problem, when you

have those behaviors that are in place of dealing with the

emotions, that's different than I need to take a break. Yeah. I

need just to sit on the couch, and I need to watch The

Office for the 100th time and just check out.

Right? When my mom died, I worked like, kinda went

right back to work. It was COVID and online life.

There wasn't really much I could do to there was you know, she had

been dying for 5 years. So all the things were tidied up

already. Mhmm. Mhmm. And there was a part of

me in retrospect was like Like, did I

overwork, or was that a problem? Or with my sister, I

just kinda went by right back to work. And I

realized that the pain was 24 hours.

Right? Like, it didn't there wasn't really any break.

And so when I worked, it was a break

from the overwhelming

experience of grief. Like, the the waves, I think of

it sometimes like Mhmm. Just the you know, it's just a wave. You just

survive each one. You just don't drown. But when I was working

or doing any of these other behaviors, you know, watching or,

Great British Baking Show, whatever, or, like,

working on a puzzle. There was part little things I could do that

I didn't feel. Mhmm. And

it What's so vital and I I think if anyone

finds themselves like, oh, I should take more time off or I

shouldn't be doing this, Almost allowing a

period of time where you just are like, that's what's happening

Mhmm. For this. I I always give myself little deadlines. Like,

I'm like, this is 100% okay for 3 months, and then let's

revisit and Circle back if we have to, like Right.

Right. You know, fix this. Absolutely.

And with your mom too, you had You had done a lot of the

work with me, with the grief recovery

program. You had completed that Yeah. Before

she died, so I remember reaching out

to you when she died And knowing too because

my mother had dementia and you lose them for

years before you actually physically lose them, which is

just a whole another level of pain and mixed

feelings and, a lot of conflict, but it's,

I remember you saying, well, Yeah. It's sad,

but it's okay because

I was already complete. Yeah. Yeah. We're gonna talk about what that meant. Like,

what that yeah. I had done the grief recovery with you Mhmm. On

her because she was dying Mhmm. And

and in many ways, gone already. And so it was time for me to,

like, process and release the pain of our

relationship, the pain of that. So I felt like when my mom died, the grief,

it was so pure in some ways. It was just pure loss.

Mhmm. And there wasn't a lot of regret or or remorse.

Like, it all was fixed. I was very mad, though, about COVID,

because We we couldn't see her because of the being in a

memory care home. So that that's, like, how she died

sometimes gets me, and it's, you have to remember, nope. I'm

really upset that she died. Right. Right. Not

it's like my brain was telling me the circumstances. Yep.

So good. So what are some strategies that

are really healthy? Like, we're saying whatever strategy you use is

healthy, And and we'd wanna make sure we're kind of keeping within

a bounds. You know? Right. And but, what are other

things that we can do, especially around the holidays or,

just in general, like, whether our loved one is

dying or we can you know, or they've have passed. Mhmm.

So yeah. It's I I tell my clients, you know, there is no

wrong way to grieve. What you're

feeling is what you're feeling, and it is

100% valid. Right? And your grief is gonna

look different than, Say if it's a parent,

it's gonna be different than your sibling, because

grief is as individual As your relationship with

that person or thing, what we want to avoid is

especially, like, isolating ourselves. Right? We

want sometimes just to curl up in a ball in a cocoon and just

shut the world out. Absolutely. And we

can't be by ourselves. Right? We are social animals,

and we need that connection and that community to

survive. So Talking to others, letting them

help you, which can be so hard in our society. Nope,

I've got it. I can do it. I'm fine. Right.

Finding ways to honor your loved one.

Talk about your feelings. Talk about how this is

for you. Especially with the holidays, it can bring

up a lot of feelings of unresolved grief. It reminds

us When we would spend or didn't spend time

with particular people, traditions may be

different or missing. Right? So remember that

grief is conflicting feelings caused by the end or change of a familiar

pattern or behavior. Well, we always did Christmas at my

mom's house. Oh, well, now where?

We always had, particular decorations,

certain foods. How are we gonna do Thanksgiving

dinner when mom and grandma always, you know, made it together.

Certain stories that are we're always told around the table. Right?

Or the absence of all of that, and now you've got to

figure out how to make your own holiday. It's normal

to feel more sad than usual around the holidays because

it's so family oriented.

Right? You know, socially, it's it's It's a busier time for us,

parties and get togethers and holidays and all of that, and wanting to

numb out our feelings or putting on a performance that everything's okay,

That's okay, but allow the feelings to come forward.

It's so uncomfortable and painful to sit in

the grief. And I promise if you allow that

for yourself, you're able to move through it

better and more quickly. Oh, true. It's like when

we we do create some buffering between us and our

emotions to protect our nervous system to protect our

ego, to protect our other relationships. And that's

valuable, but it can't be the only state that

we stay in. Because unprocessed grief is just like any other

unprocessed feeling and unprocessed stress, it shows up like whack a

mole in other ways, like other relationships in our body,

in our performance, in life, overwhelm, all of that. And

Yeah. So that's why your grief recovery is so so helpful, and I wanna get

into that. But I wanted to talk about for just a minute, like, someone

listening is maybe thinking, well, I haven't experienced that

or I'm through it, but I don't know what to say. Like, my best friend

lost her mom or My brother's wife's

father-in-law, whatever. Like, you know, someone else further out,

has lost somebody that maybe you're not connected to that loss

and you wanna support them. Like, what are we supposed to say?

I find 2 things. 1, I found the best

thing to say to someone. Like, say you're

going through the funeral line. Right? Or you're going

to their house for the reception or shiver or whatever it is.

I can't imagine What this is like for you,

period. That's it. Even if their mother

has died and you think you know exactly how they're feeling

because your mother died, you don't.

You don't know what their relationship was like. Got it. I'm

sure I have aired in this way before. Oh,

we all have. And we think it might be helpful

by saying you have a community around you that understands how you're feeling,

right? That is Totally logical. Right? Except their brain

isn't broken. It's their heart that's broken. Mhmm. Right? So to

hear I know how you're feeling, No, you don't.

Mhmm. You can't possibly know this pain Yeah.

That I'm feeling about my mom, Right. About

my grandparent, about my spouse, about my child.

Right. You can't possibly know. So I would say

that, right? I can't imagine what this is like for

you. I'm so sorry. That's it.

And if you have the urge to start a sentence with

at least, Close your

mouth and stop because at least they're not

in pain, at least they're not, At least they're

in heaven. At least you got to say goodbye. Yeah. At least

no. None of these are optimal. Right?

No. At least they're not in pain. I know, but we can manage

pain. I want them still here. At least they're in a better place.

No. Being here with us is the best place.

You know, at least and with any loss, you know, at

least, you you know, you can find another boyfriend. Right? There are more fish

in the sea. Yeah. You can get another dog.

Right? Just replace the loss. Right? So all of these

myths We have around grief are the things that we

automatically wanna say because it's been so ingrained in us. Right? Also, it

feels like it's going to be kind and soothing. Like, I think our intention is

really like Abs oh, absolutely. It's never, oh, I

wanna hurt this person, but Every

griever will say the same thing. What was said to you that

was unhelpful during the time that you were grieving? And it is

always like the same 5 things. Just

keep it simple. I can't imagine what this is like for you. You

can offer, I know when my mother died, I was a

wreck, period. That's it. Right? Yeah.

Normalizing Normalizing the pain, normalizing the Yeah.

However you're feeling yeah. Yeah.

That's the way it is for you. Right? Mhmm. I noticed I

loved Not necessarily in the funeral line or or things like that, but

just, like, someone's willingness to just be with me Mhmm. And then

also to let me talk. Mhmm. Like, whether I

needed to process the way the person died

again Mhmm. I found that I kinda needed to tell

that story many times with each different grief. I lost

3 people in 3 years, so it was a lot of grief at, like,

compounded. Mhmm. And so I I

found myself, like, wanting to tell the story, and it was like building a

coherent narrative because What happens to your brain when somebody is gone is,

like, yeah, you're not really in your thinking brain. You're not really making connections

or memories. It's all kind of blurry. And And I think in the retelling, it

kind of solidifies that this is what happened. Absolutely.

And or just anecdotes about The person

or funny stories or photos, I'm always, like, obsessively

getting gathering all the pictures that I have, and then

I really want Someone to see them. Mhmm. Mhmm.

And just being willing, I think, to sit in that process, whatever it looks like

for the person that Absolutely. Grieber's more

than anything else, Grieber's want to be heard. Like all of

us, we wanna be heard and seen, but especially they want to be

heard. They want Someone's sitting with them and

listening to them about how they're feeling, what it's been like

for them, What kind of memories are you having about this

person? And if you knew the person,

sharing a memory, no matter how small,

Will bring such joy to that person that they're

not grieving alone. And I know a

lot of people are like, I don't wanna bring it up because I don't wanna

make them sad. I've never had a client who

forgot that a loved one died, and

then you bring it up, and they're like, oh my god. I thought I was

totally fine, and then she brought up my mother, and now I'm

sad all over again. No. They

are sad, period. So true. But we wanna

avoid it because it's uncomfortable, Right. But that is such a gift

that you can give to someone is just to sit and listen.

The first question I ask when Someone comes to me

looking for support around grief is tell me what happened.

Mhmm. And then I don't say anything else Because they

do need to process that story. They wanna tell you

step by step by step what happened. Right? We did this

and then we did that and then they refined it. They want to tell you

the whole story and what the last moments were. They want to tell all of

it. And oftentimes,

I say I am just a heart with ears. Right? I'm

just to sit here and I'm just Bringing all

of this in, I just have an open heart for you to pour it

into. Mhmm. And that's my job. Yeah. It's just to

be able to hold that space for them, but it's very

simple. What happened? Mhmm.

So sometimes people need to borrow our brain. Sometimes they need to borrow our heart.

Sometimes they need to borrow our hands. Mhmm. And Mhmm. Being

present in that way. Beautifully put. Yeah. Yeah.

Mhmm. Well, I'd love to talk about grief recovery briefly

Mhmm. Because I wanna caveat it, and I think of it

this way. I think that there's a period of mourning. Mhmm.

And then there's a a period of grief recovery. Right. It's

I guess it's a period of grieving and then a period of grief recovery.

Right. And when the loss happens, it's I don't

think it's always the best time to recover from it if you haven't

processed the pain, the grief itself. I don't know if I'm explaining it

well. So we're gonna talk for a minute about 2 different processes.

Like, we've been talking about grief and grieving and mourning and

Feeling it all. And now and maybe you can

articulate it better, but it's like now we're switching towards

When we're ready to kinda reconcile or

or move through that loss and make sense of it on a different

like, more you talk about it. Right. So a lot of

times, especially right after a loss,

people are still in the dying. Mhmm.

Right? So they're grieving the loss,

like the physical loss, and they're still in that story

of what happened. And sometimes that can be

2 weeks. Sometimes that could be 2 years.

When they're ready, if and when they're ready

to move Not move

on, but to move through it. Right?

We can't get over a loss. No shortcuts. Right? We

can't go over. We have to go through, and it sucks,

and you can do it. There is a period of time, but we don't know

what that is. Yeah. It's different for every person. Right? I always think it's,

like, so beautiful in other cultures that they have periods of mourning

and that they've they in like, They've defined it. Like Mhmm. If your

spouse died, you wear black for a year. But if it was a cousin, you

know, you only wear black for 3 weeks or whatever.

Yeah. You have a playbook of what we're supposed to do because Yeah.

None of us know what we're supposed to do. Right? Yeah. I remember walking

into Trader Joe's, And I happen to be friendly with the workers

there, and they're like, how are you doing? And I'm like, my mom died.

Like and I was just a disaster, And I wish

that I was wearing all black and that indicated something to them or that I

had a veil or I I I wish that I had some way

to Jo, I am in mourning. I'm not okay. Like, I'm not

a not a normal person right now. Yeah. And to treat me gently

Late. And Yeah. I'm not gonna be able to chitchat. Like or maybe I will,

but just know I might not be able to. Right. But there was no I

was, like, Wearing normal clothes and going to the grocery store like a normal person

how I did many times. Right. And then I'm all

all of a sudden in a normal experience that isn't nobody

knows that I'm in in the outside world. And that's can be

part of what's so devastating is My whole

world has stopped. It's suspended,

and yet everyone is just going on living

Like, my mom hasn't died? How? How?

Mhmm. I can barely get out of bed, but, oh, they can just go to

a movie? Yeah. It seems unbelievable. Right? So, yeah,

I It's kinda like when when you're sick and everybody else is, like,

acting And you're like, how did you just get up to go get something from

their kitchen? Like, I'm dying over here. You know? Right. Right. You can't believe you

can't imagine ever feeling better, and then, like, a couple weeks later, you're like, oh,

I can also go get things from the kitchen. And it happens with grief, and

I think that moment when there's More

gaps between those waves. Mhmm. Mhmm.

And it's also when you are feeling stuck.

Yeah. For sure. When people are going through, you know,

grieving the loss, right, but when they get to a point in their

life where they're stuck, They just can't move forward.

Something isn't right. Just nothing's working.

And they think in their mind, it's been long enough For it's been, you know,

however long I'm ready to move

forward, that's when they're ready to do the work. Because I've had

clients who have come right after a loss, and they're not

ready to do this particular program, right, that I

teach. So when you're ready to do

recovery, right, which is totally possible, people are, like, how can

My heart is broken. It's shattered. How can it be repaired? It can

be. Right? So a lot of times, unresolved grief is

It's almost always about things we wish we had said

or done differently, better,

or more. I wish I told my dad I loved

him before it was too late. Yeah. I wish I visit my

grandma that weekend Before she died, so I

could tell her how much, you know, she meant to me. All those things that

we wish were better, different, or more. We wish we had more time. We

wish the relationship was better. My experience doing with my

mom was so beautiful because you really helped

me process the entire Higher relationship, like, all that was good,

all that was hard, all the things that I wish I would have said or

that I wish she would have done or shown up And really gave me

this beautiful space to kind of process all of

that. And you walk you walk through 7 weeks or

something like that. Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. So it's really specific, and it's

a program that you go Right. And it's It's specific

series of steps. Right? So it's it's not just a sit and

feel sad. You're taking action. You're taking action

to actually Repair your heart. The grief is it's

also about all of our hopes and dreams of expectations of what we

thought was going to happen, what we thought the relationship was going to

be like. And even in the best relationships, we're often left with

Things we plans. Oh, we were going to go to on this

trip. We had this my big birthday. My

daughter was graduating from college. Like, all these things that we thought were going

to happen, when we have that or if you're in a negative

relationship, the loss robs us of that

possibility of repairing the relationship, right, that they left

before we could do that. Mhmm. Loss, it's cumulative.

It's over a lifetime, and if you don't

resolve the grief, then it builds on itself.

Right. If you think of, like, you know, a tea kettle, and it's getting hotter

and hotter and hotter and you put a cork in the spout, eventually,

that spout is gonna pop. And that looks different for people,

you know, all different people. It is it's gonna show up in a different way

for you. But our goal with this program

is To be able to

heal our hearts so you're able to enjoy

the fond memories of that person without your

heart breaking again. Yep. Not that you won't ever be sad,

but you won't be heartbroken. You won't feel shattered

every time you hear that song on the radio or you

smell their perfume or that thing that they

cooked or their birthday, you know, all these

special events. We're not looking for closure

Because we don't end that relationship with them. We're looking to

complete the relationship with the pain associated with the loss.

Yeah. It's so amazing. Yeah. Because I I

just keep thinking, like, one thing when someone has died is that you

don't get to have a conversation with them. Mhmm. And those

things get stuck. Right? The things that are unsaid or the things you wish you

would've said. But that all that same loss happens obviously with a

pet. Right? You could, You know? Or a job, like, if you

got kind of your dream job and it got taken from you for whatever, like,

it gets stuck and then you keep bringing it up and bringing it up, and

it's, like, painful. Or I get I do. I just keep thinking of divorce. Like,

there's some relationships that end in a way that are complete, and

you've said all the things. But there's some relationships that are too

toxic, and you're not going to go through the process with the person.

Right. Right. Still alive, but you're not doing this with them. You've tried.

Right. And so how to move through

that loss, I think it's there's so much room for what you're

doing. Right. So because grief grievers need to be heard.

Right? Yeah. So you get to say all of those things that

you wanted to say that to that person to a

person. Mhmm. Right? Heart with ears,

and you're able to say all of the things that you wanted to say, and

you're able to say Goodbye to the pain.

Right? Because you've completed your relationship. There's no reason to

hold on to all of that stuff. You're starting a new relationship

with this person or with this institution or this thing

because you've you're done. You've done you've said Everything

that you need to say. You've told them all the ways that you they impacted

your life. You've forgiven them. You've apologized. You've told them

all the ways that you love them, And then you get to start

anew. Yeah. There's so much freedom in it. It there's so much

peace. Whether you want just to process The loss

Mhmm. Or go through grief recovery. That is what Leslie's available

for. So you can find Leslie on her website, and

we're We're gonna put it in the show notes, but it is grief recovery

westla.com. Yep. And you can reach out, and they can

just Book a call, like, consult, right, with you Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. If it

feels good. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for sharing this with

us. And Thank you. Yeah.

Helping helping all of us be human in in

in a painful world, Like, how to move through really deep

pain and loss. So your work is important. Oh, thank you. Thank

you so much for having me. Yeah. Alright. So next week,

everyone, there'll be another episode, and I will talk to you next

time.