On this episode of the Dudes and Dads podcast, we talk with our good friend Norm Dyle about the lessons we've learned from our kids.
You're listening to the dudes and dads podcast show dedicated men be better dudes and dads
by building community through meaningful conversation and storytelling.
And now here are your hosts Joel DeMott and Andy Lehman
Andy Joel.
Hi.
We're back.
No, we are back.
We are back.
The sun is shining.
It's we're recording a little bit earlier in the evening.
That is a new thing for us.
only we record it at eight thirty.
We're on like six now. Yeah.
Which means I'm bringing extra energy, Andy.
I'm not bringing the eight o'clock energy.
I'm bringing the six o'clock energy.
You have half a cup of coffee instead of a full cup.
Hold on to your seat.
Oh, hey, everybody.
Welcome to the Dudes and Dads podcast.
Glad, glad, glad and grateful that you.
Yeah. That we're here together.
All all three of us.
I'm glad.
Yes, we've got a great, we're going to introduce our guests here.
They'll be coming up in just a minute.
But Andy, let's real quick, anything exciting going on in your life right now that you want
to tell us about?
I just did a whirlwind tour across the state of Ohio and Pennsylvania for work and I'm
back and oh, I'm tired.
Yeah, you were cramming a lot of work into a little amount of time.
What's the latest you had to stay up there on that?
10 o'clock or so.
It wasn't terrible.
Not terrible.
1130.
You kick some late nights as far as work is concerned.
We did.
Usually you're not working that late.
No, I do.
I usually work until 11.
We've, at our age, we've made it a real habit to not be working that late, of course.
Right.
You're just sleeping at that time.
Yeah.
Which would be the right, which would be the good call.
Yes.
And what have I been up to?
Thanks for asking, Andy.
Hey, Joel, wait, wait, wait, wait.
Hold on.
What have you been up to?
I missed it.
Sorry.
I'm kidding.
Great friend I am.
Yeah, no, no, no.
What have I been up to?
Well, you know, just kids.
just kid, a lot of the kids stuff, Andy and little, you know, some, some baseball games.
Jackie is, she's fixing to leave me for the great state of Texas this week for a few days.
Well, that'll be hot.
It's going to be so hot, so hot down there.
And so when she does that, I'm calling reinforcements also known as the grandma's, the grandparents.
That's a good call.
We got some camps and things to go to and unfortunately I can't clone myself.
So we're gonna need some help.
But we are looking forward.
The summer is off and rolling.
We're out of school.
We're doing a few of the things, doing some camps.
Sweet.
So I'm looking forward to that.
And yeah, we're looking forward to a lovely June.
So now everybody's caught up.
Andy, we've got our guest.
We do.
But before we talk about our guest, let's talk about this little...
But not at little. This significant endeavor that you've undertook in, undertaken, undertaken.
So this episode is brought to you by my other podcast, the podcast answers podcast, which
is where I help people start and grow their podcast. We answer any podcast questions that
I'm available for one-on-one consulting and would love to help you start your podcast.
So if you would like to do that, podcastanswers.com.
If you want your voice to sound as velvety as this one does, give Andy a jingle.
He'll set you up right.
All right.
Well, Joel, we want to welcome Norm to the show.
Norm, welcome to the show.
Hey, thanks for having me guys.
Oh, Norm Dyle.
Hello.
Hey, guys.
Norm and I go, we go way back.
I don't know how far back, but Norm is, he's an upstanding fellow.
the kind of person we want on this show because he's going to make Andy and I look like we're
basically just barely getting through life because Norm Dial is an upstanding. He's a
dude. He's a dad. He's all the things and he does a great job.
Norm and I don't go back very far, but I do work with his mom. I discovered this week.
Interesting.
After I was talking to you. So, yes.
So good. So your mom works out this way, Norm. I didn't realize that.
Yeah, she does. And she's good people too.
So that would make sense. I mean, it's probably it's in the DNA, clearly, obviously.
Yeah. So Norm, we were just before the show started, I asked Norm because I had lost track of time.
Norm, Norm is a pastor. He's he's also a youth worker, which makes him a super special guy in my book.
And which, you know, he's the grayest setting in. And quite honestly, Norm, I'm surprised it took this long.
So congratulations.
Congratulations on that.
So, Norm, tell us, as we always like to dive into the dad stats, as we like to say, tell
us a little bit about you, about your family, your kiddos, your wife, what you do, and any
other special information that might endear our listeners to us.
Listen, endear our listeners to you even more.
All right.
Yeah.
Well, hey, I grew up in Elkar actually.
And pretty normal life, I guess, middle America, and ended up meeting my wife, Tara, at Youth
Group, which I guess is why I wanted to be a youth pastor.
I could help kids find their future.
And that's not it at all.
I do that in yours.
Norm, do you have...
I need to ask you the question because Jackie and I, my wife now, we started dating in high
high school, I wonder if you ever have the conversations with your youth about like,
"Hey, you're probably not going to find that forever person in high school or in youth
group."
And then they throw it back at you like, "Well, you did."
And then you say, "I always say, well, I'm the exception that proves the rule.
So don't take my advice, I guess.
I don't know.
I don't know."
But does anybody ever give you a hard time?
Do you ever have that conversation with the kids?
Yeah, we're just mostly hush-hush about that.
That's right.
That's right. See, we were honest and that's why we suffered. Norm just
sees why, just keeps that, keeps that on the download. Although it is now out on the podcast,
so hopefully none of your kids listen to this. Okay, keep going, Norm. Tell us more. All right.
Yeah. So moved to Coons Lake 16 years ago to become the youth pastor here at Coons Lake
Missionary Church and been here ever since. Doing student work still, but worship leading as well
and doing a lot of, I guess, associate pastor kind of duties. And we love it here. This is a place
that has been home for us. And yeah, we're just super excited to raise our kids here. Two kids,
Brayden and Landon, both of them are dudes. And so, yes, we are mostly excited to see
we're gods leading us next. But sometimes I think, you know, we can think of next too much. And so
living in the current reality is where I'm trying to keep my head, you know, 11 and 9 years old.
and the first 11 and nine years went so fast for my kids. And so trying to live present every
single day here in the consulate. Yeah. Let's see. So you and Tara have been married. How long
have you guys been married? Yeah, 17 years. 2006. So you started, so as one does, starting in
vocational ministry and marriage together at the same time. I mean, wow, look at you shine.
That's great.
Yeah, it hasn't been trying in the least.
Absolutely not.
Zero, zero.
Yeah.
A little, little in fact, I decided to get fired from a church internship just before
I got married.
So a different career path between Norm and I, but you know, again, it all worked.
But similar.
Fired and married at the same time.
Yeah.
It's, you know, it's nice.
Life's a little twist and turns.
So, yeah.
Yeah, so Norm, this is, when we were talking about this show, Andy and I were talking about
this idea of kind of the general theme, and I think it'll wind through our conversation
here.
The general theme of things that we've learned from our kids.
And Norm, I feel like you, from some conversations that we've had, and please feel like you don't
have to remember every conversation that we've had.
But in my mind, from some of the conversations we've had in the past, what has always struck
me about you and likely Tara, I guess if she were here to share this too, is that I feel like you
in your dude and your dad responsibilities in life, that you've always been a learner,
but that you learn from your kids. You've always like things that it feels like you've seen,
you know, even how God has used your children to grow you, build you, teach you things along the
way. And that's something that Andy and I like we're always trying to remain, I think,
present and open and aware of like it's not just me, the parent to my kid, like, Hey,
here's a list of things you need to, you know, you need to know and learn and all of this,
but rather something that they're teaching us to. Yeah, that they're like actually shaping
like our kids are shaping us to a certain degree and not in a, you know, and I think
that can be entirely healthy. It's not that I'm, you know, asking Aaron at night, like
for a life advice often, my oldest son.
But so that's kind of, that's kind of where our general theme is,
is like having a conversation around the learnings,
the things that you've been learning on this,
this dude and dad journey of yours.
So I guess first, you know, I started,
I did some big swing questions here, Andy,
as you were saw on the show notes here, because it's like, you know,
not every guest is ready for the deep philosophical deep dive.
Right away.
right away, but like I didn't hold back with Norm because I knew he was here for the time.
So, one of the first questions that came to my mind is that when you think about your
journey as a dude, what kind of life did you hope for?
So this is the early days, the 20s, college days, all of that, like hopes, dreams, goals,
what did you start off in that time of that kind of formational time of life when you
were thinking about the future.
Yeah, actually, if you don't mind, I'd like to go back to my teenage years just a
little bit. Even better.
And actually, even before that, when I was a kid, I wanted to be a missionary
and an NBA star at the same time.
Yeah. Wow.
And I did not possess the physical nor the natural talent for basketball.
Or I didn't have the grit and determination, you know, to make sure,
to will my way into the NBA.
So I was stuck, I guess, with the missionary work.
And honestly, I didn't know what that meant.
Um, when I got in high school, I wanted to own a car dealership with my dad.
He was a car salesman and, uh, the guys that owned the dealership that he worked at, um,
you know, they were wealthy.
They owned part of an island and the Caribbean, you know, they, they had everything you could
want.
Um, you know, as far as possession goes and, um, and so I just kind of had that dream like,
Hey, we're just going to own a car dealership and become rich and wealthy.
And I was eating, you know, as all good conversations come from eating a meal at McDonald's as a
sophomore in high school.
And I was eating with one of my good friends and he said, "Hey, have you ever thought about
ministry?"
And honestly, I never had before that moment.
I never thought about going into ministry.
And there was an instant affirmation in my soul.
Like when he said that, there was like, like something just kind of leaped inside of me
and said, "Oh, that's exactly what God is calling me to."
And it changed the trajectory of my entire life.
And so from that point on,
going into my late teen years, early 20s,
I just wanted something stable, steady,
a wife, 2.3 kids, white picket fence,
just kind of the American dream.
And other than that,
I didn't have too many hopes and aspirations
when I was young.
hopes were become famous and then rich. And then I just wanted to live kind of a normal
life. And that's sort of what we've built and kind of what we do here is trying to live
as normal, I guess, as possible while having the call of God on our life to do some extraordinary
things.
Yeah. So, and I think, you know, when we, I don't know, I think all of us to some degree
reflect about on what we thought life would be like when we were younger, right?
And usually that's not the case.
It's not the case.
And sometimes you really have to have a good laugh with yourself about, you know, because
it's like, you realize how little of an understanding you had about what it was going to take to
even get to even a fraction of what you were aspiring to be.
So moving from that, like once, as a distant for so many of us, getting married and becoming
a father shifts those goals often in a pretty significant way.
So what shifts occurred for you as you were like really, you know, really starting to
get into the adulting phase of life?
Yeah, really what shifted for me was sort of my perspective on what normal and steady
means because when I was younger, I thought normal and steady was just kind of easy.
You know, like I was just going to do this thing and it was just going to kind of come
easy.
You know, I watched my parents when I was young and I just thought that things kind of
came easy to them.
And if there was something that I saw as maybe a mistake or a shortcoming on their part,
it was really easy to become, I don't know, I guess judgmental about those things.
And so becoming a husband and then a father has really shifted my perspective into what
I thought was normal and steady.
Is not so easy, at least not as easy as I would have liked it to be.
There have been a lot of challenges along the way.
There have been a lot of days and seasons and months where I think it was Adam Grant
that coined the phrase, or he didn't coin the phrase, but he talks about languishing.
Sometimes in life, we just kind of are languishing a little bit, but honestly, it's just so much
more rewarding now to be a dad to live this steady life, though not easy.
up making the kids breakfast, you know, stuff like that is so much better than,
than what I thought it was going to be. And yet it's challenging at the same time.
You know, we, I get, uh, as, uh, as Andy and I both know,
so I'm, I'm approaching 40. Andy has, I'm well past.
He's past, he's past the dollar, the, that mark. Uh, but, you know,
we talked about the quarter life, the quarter life crisis thing norm where,
or excuse me, you know, midlife crisis thing. Um,
And oftentimes it, there's probably that, I think that languishing component to it.
And it's often depicted as kind of a boredom that sets in with, with normalcy, with, with the
routine. Like you just kind of wake up one day and you're like, what, what am I, yeah, where am I,
what am I doing? What is my life, what is my life amounted to? And, and I'm part of that.
If I could say maybe in the negative term is, is a, there's kind of a, there could be a contentment
issue there. When you think about life right now, and we're going to, as with the next
couple of questions that I ask about your kids specifically, I think this can tie in.
What has contentment looked like? How do you feel like you have fostered that
within life, within your marriage,
within going from the aspirations of NBA, NBA...
- NBA missionary.
- Missionary sales dealer, car dealer, Megastar.
What would you identify there for you personally?
- You know, I went through a season a couple of years ago,
but I was really searching for that,
searching for contentment,
And I thought that to be important
was going to bring me contentment.
And so I said yes to everything I could ministry wise.
I was leading three different committees or events
on larger scales as well as what I was doing here
at the church.
And nothing satisfied what I was searching for.
And so I actually had to get real with myself and say,
man, I'm gonna burn out if I just keep going at this pace.
And so I saw professional counseling.
And there's one thing that really stuck out to me
that my counselor talked about.
He talked about the difference
between responsibility and concern,
that there are certain God-given responsibilities
that we have.
And then there are things that we can be concerned about,
but they aren't necessarily our responsibility.
And so as we started looking through the responsibility
that God has given me, really most of that is,
is God's call on my life.
What is, what has God called me to be?
And he's called me to be a husband.
And he's called me to be a father.
And almost everything else in my life
is simply a concern that I have,
but I don't need to take all of that on his responsibility.
And so as I've began to say no to other things in life that I thought were going to bring
me contentment and I learned quickly that they didn't.
And I started to relieve myself of some of those duties.
I found more joy in just the simple things, the everyday things.
And it's not perfect.
I'm still learning this lesson.
But yeah, I would say that that's really been helpful for me in the last couple of years.
Yeah, creating space for joy.
Um, there's, uh, yeah, there's something very, very powerful to that.
And, uh,
well, and just recognizing that you need to do that too before you burn out.
That's important.
Cause I think a lot of people don't realize that they're,
they need to carve out that space for joy and then they burn out.
And then it's really hard to come back from that.
And for those of us that are highly like,
because Norm's got the pastor's heart, like the highly conscientious,
like just concerned for all things, you know, so many things,
So many things can cause concern and can draw us in and like, how can I, you know,
how, you know, how can I help?
It's the, uh, I was watching a recent episode of, uh, of Ted Lasso.
And the joke was that Ted, like Ted, like Ted, the character of Ted Lasso is
this very like, he's just concerned about everybody, right?
And the problem is, is that he, uh, he lacks, you know, personal concern for himself.
And that's what was coming through the show.
Ted's mom goes, yeah, he was, he was born.
And the first thing he did was look at the doctor and said, Hey, can I get you anything?
(laughing)
And that's like, some of us identify with that very,
very closely.
Norm, here's, this is the good stuff here too,
because obviously you've talked about your family
and we've kind of introduced them,
but I would love it if you could tell us about your boys.
- Yeah.
Well, we were blessed with Brayden 11 years ago. And honestly, it was...
So much joy has come out of being a father. But then also, there's been a lot of pain
associated with fatherhood. And so a lot of it was around Brayden. When he was one, we found out
that he has cerebral palsy and I totally didn't expect it. We were getting sort of a scan done
on his brain because he was having trouble with his eyes just tracking things. And so,
they wanted to make sure there was no tumor or anything on his brain pushing against an optical
nerve. And what they found was that he had a stroke and utero at some point probably within the last
week of pregnancy. And so there's been so many questions and so much need that he has that
comes with his disability. It really affects his gross motor skills the most. I mean, there's a
developmental delay with everything. But just the most basic things in life, you know, getting dressed
in the morning going to the bathroom, even some like feeding, eating routines and stuff
like that. We have to help him with. And he's very frustrated with his condition. And he'll
ask questions sometimes about it. He is wheelchair bound. And so, that frustration comes out
often because he just doesn't know what to do with his body and his mind and it's just
not working. But I've learned through Brayden how to persevere when things are difficult
because he has no other option. I mean, he just has to push through it. And so it's been
just an amazing lesson as I've watched things in my life have kind of come easy to me until
in and nothing comes easy for him. On another note, because he is wheelchair bound, it means
that he requires more assistance with mobility kind of things. And so we were in the process
of getting a van converted. And so we had to buy a new van. The conversion itself is more
than money than we thought. Then we would spend on a vehicle for our family and getting our
detached garage kind of converted so that he can have indoor access to transfer from
the van into the home. And so we had a lot of needs come up and we're not the type to
ask for anything, but our church learned of our needs, our deacons learned of our needs.
And they just put a note out that said, "Hey, if you guys would be willing to help."
And so sort of a side thing that I've learned from through Braden, really through his condition,
is that there are so many people that are, if they understand if they know of a need and there's
a clear call for something that can be done, people are just so generous. And I am just floored
and brought to tears often of how generous notes, prayers, financial assistance. I mean, it's just
amazing to me how much people are willing to meet our needs when honestly on our great pastor salary.
We wouldn't be able to do it on our own.
So, where's the thankful and blessed fire community and all that's through Brayden.
And so, we see the blessing in that.
So, obviously, here it is that you have Brayden and for some families, I mean, it would seem
like, man, the responsibility and the task of raising a child with that disability would
be like, Hey, that's going to max kind of max us out. But then, but then you had, you
had another son and, uh, and so it's like, Hey, choose a party. Uh, so what, uh, what
has it? Well, I mean, first talks about, talks about land and I'd love to know what he's,
what he's into and what he likes. And I should say, if, if you get to know Norma, if you
fend for him on Facebook, you're going to see a lot of pictures of the boys and you're
going to see that they look like pretty doggone, well, adorable children, but pretty happy
kids too.
What has Landon's story been like and what is it like too?
And I think for many of us, we have listeners on here that have children with disabilities
and what the family dynamic looks like out of that too as far as siblings and all of
that.
kind of what that has looked like for you guys.
Yeah, landing early on, we thought landing was more like Terra and he does possess a lot of
Terra's qualities and traits. But what we've discovered is that he picked up all of my bad
habits and my bad tendencies. Perfect.
For instance, I'm, yeah, I'm perfectly comfortable living, you know, in a minor chaos disaster
kind of situation. You know, I don't I don't see messes the way that my wife sees them.
She can out of mess and land in like a tornado could hit his room and he wouldn't even notice.
But he likes all the things that that boys like. He likes gaming. We started a YouTube
channel together. Yes. And we we dropped it for a little bit as some responsibilities we're picking
up in our lives, but he just got Zelda tears of the kingdom.
And so we just recorded our first two episodes
and we're going to be putting those out soon.
And and yeah, he's he's just a bundle of joy and energy and brains.
And yeah, and we will we'll definitely be sharing the link to that show notes
because you guys should you guys should check that out.
I I feel like I would do something.
I maybe I would try to do something like that.
But like, I just know that my kids could severely school me in any game whatsoever.
Same here.
Like, I'm just so far behind anything that they would.
Joel, that means you're old.
That's what it means, you're right.
Yeah, that's right.
That's right.
So what is it been like is the because I think this is an interesting dynamic where the young
the younger brother is what is the dynamic between between the two brothers?
Like, how is that?
How is that played out?
What have what have what have they had to learn to to work together?
I know what my kids are like, you know, you two boys are
are close, are reasonably close in age, just like my two eldest are.
And I also know the.
How shall we say the various frictions that are also, you know, also accompany
your brothers like that at that age.
What what does it look like for them as they've kind of been growing up here?
Yeah, they they still fight like any other brother would.
they like to annoy one another, pick on one another. But there is just such a great joy in
watching, especially Landon, you know, being a younger brother, you know, usually it's the older
brother that is kind of watching out for the younger brother. But there are times when Landon
is at his best that he really does kind of watch out for Braden and looks out for his needs. And
But one of the most difficult things that at least I have, I'll speak for myself is, you know,
land in as a kid with needs like any other normal kid, you know, needs for relationship with his
parents need needs for care and for time spent with. And he's a super independent kid. He's
really smart. He can do it all on his own. And so one night I was putting land into bed and
And we're going through a particularly tough season with Brayden.
And, you know, a lot of our energy and time is going into Brayden and his needs.
And I just started a conversation with Landon about what it felt like.
You know, that we had to spend so much time with Brayden.
And there is some sadness there.
There is some just a little bit like, you know, he's sad that
that sometimes it means that we take time away from what normally would be his time.
And so that's something that we've been trying to be really intentional about is having time
for both of our boys. And man, it's not easy just because of the obvious and physical needs
that Braden has. Yet it's something that we're trying to be really cognizant of.
So, obviously, you and Tara, something like this could definitely drive a wedge between
people, you know, when the kids have special needs.
How, what have you guys learned about each other, your relationship with each other,
and how you guys parent?
Yeah, it can be so easy to lose one another.
I think just in parenting in general, you know, just take out the special needs.
I think it can be really easy to be hyper focused on your kids that you kind of lose
one another.
And I hear that story so many times.
And we've experienced that in seasons where we're just hyper focused on what we're doing.
When I was in college, I had a marriage and family class.
And one of the things that the professor taught in that class was, one of the best things
that you can do for your kids is to have a really good relationship with your spouse.
And so it's, it's, you know, something that I'm trying to be conscious of, you know, is
on my best days, you know, just really simple things.
Like the first thing I do when I come home from work and, and the boys are there and
Tara's there is I kind of, and sometimes I feel like a bad dad, but I kind of bypassed
them and go straight to Tara.
And you know, even though, you know, out of the five love languages touches probably her
seventh or eighth love language, I still,
- Surprise, surprise.
(laughing)
- I still go give her a hug, give her a kiss,
show that I'm happy to see her.
Just trying to do some really simple things
to put our relationship even as bad as it sounds
above our kids because that's the best gift
we can give them is a strong marriage
and a strong partnership when it comes to parenting.
Yeah, there's a, I really, I mean, the way you said that and lose,
lose each other, which seems, uh, seems, it seems strange.
Like you're in such close proximity to each other as, as parents and living in
the same home. Um, it seems like it'd be like, well,
the last thing that you would do is would be lose, losing each other, but, um,
it, it absolutely happens when there's, there's so many conversations.
I know Andy, you've probably experienced it too, where I just,
where you stop and you go, when is the last time that we sat down and number one had a
conversation that wasn't about our children?
Let's just try that.
And it wasn't reactive.
Like it wasn't a reactive conversation of like, oh, this thing happened today and we
got to adjust or we got to, you know, whatever or and actually had them, you know, it's easy
to get busy in the life and just have like, like those investment, those investment conversations.
And you know, and I'm assuming Norm that, you know, Tara, you know, she's got a full
plate all day.
She's got a lot of things that she's working through as well.
And you know, it's, you've reached every one of us, she's been doing all of her stuff
by her, you know, by herself.
You've been doing your things.
And we, it's so easy at the end of the day.
I know I'm numerous times guilty of it,
mostly because the moment we get home,
it's like, hey, we're off to the next thing sometimes.
It's just easy to not ground ourselves back
kind of together to make that contact point,
just like you were saying in the midst of it,
and just to kind of keep being alone together,
so to speak at the end of the day.
So those are good words,
important things to think about.
So, Norm, as you guys are on this journey and you're still early on the journey, I
think about some other families that I know who have between a special needs child and
just knowing the age of your boys in general.
You're not super far in.
There's a lot of parenting and a lot of things that are left ahead.
When you think about your dreams for your boys, for your kids, like what the future
could hold for them, what does that look like?
What do those conversations look like?
Do you and Tara...
I know it feels like sometimes my wife and I, we have these powwows about like, we'll
observe, like, kind of like scientists, we'll observe our kids doing the things that they
do academically in sports, kind of in their relationships. And then we sit down and we
go, okay, do we feel like there's a trajectory here, good or bad or whatever that we're noticing
and then do what are what are the interventions? If any, what are the encouragements? But yeah,
just just what where you see the where you see the future and obviously we're not we're
not we don't get so invested in the future that that becomes our worry and that we're
like we're not living in the present as you've said, but in terms of dreaming for the future
of your kids, what does that look like?
Yeah, I think, I mean, Tara would honestly have some really good answers for this because
she is someone who is always thinking about the future and thinking about what's next.
And I'm someone who's just really, you know, content with living right now.
Sometimes Tara would tell you it's for the worst.
(laughing)
- Sometimes.
But really, it's very different for both boys.
For Braden, we know that there's gonna be a lifelong need
there for care for him, and we hope to be there for him.
It's something that as I think about my health,
and I'm about to enter 40 as well,
I'm just about a year and a half from that.
And I'm not content with where I am health-wise.
And it's like, I've got to do some different things
because I want to be healthy as I take care of him.
I want to be healthy into, well,
into my advanced stages of life
as I consider how to take care of him.
And for Landon, the sky is the limit for this kid.
I mean, he is so bright.
He was doing division in first grade.
I taught him one time the concept of division.
And he was just doing it.
He's got like an engineering mindset
And so someday I hope he's taking care of us, honestly.
- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
No pressure, son, but seriously, get your act together.
- Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly.
So no, honestly, I just wanna see him begin to dream
as well for himself and begin to realize some
of his own goals and learn how to make those goals.
And so yeah, whatever we can do to be there
in the process, that's--
Yeah. Norm, and I won't even wonder like for Braden, like, is there goal setting there
for you guys? I mean, is that is what is that look like? Because that's obviously a very
different process. But at the same time, I would imagine that there are milestones that
you're looking that you're looking to make. And there's some, you know, goals and may
maybe various categories. I'm curious to hear from you and just how that works for you guys.
Yeah. Oh, man. That's such a hard thing because when he first got his diagnosis,
we didn't know what that meant. He was one. He was just starting to learn how to sit up at that
point. He was... And he could walk for a while before he was wheelchair bound. And now,
know, he can't even really take one step forward. And so if we look at the physical, you know,
his physical body, there's so many things that feel like not, not progress, you know,
the opposite of progress, like, like there's regression there. And yet most of our goals
around Braden are about surrounding him with people who love him, who, who he genuinely
feels like care for him. And so we do have goals. He has an IEP at school. He does physical
therapy, occupational therapy. And so we do set goals for what he can do physically, what
his mind is doing. But really the goals, and I think it's probably good for both of our
boys to have this goal, is that they would feel something from us, feel something from
growing up. Often the memories that we have, that we create, aren't so much the physical
things that you do, but how you felt during those things. And so for both of our boys,
we just want them to go into adulthood feeling like they were cared for. Like we did everything
we could. One of my hopes, one of my goals is that they wouldn't have to spend too much
money in therapy. They're 20s and 30s from the mistakes that we made.
But really, one of our greatest goals of parenting, and I learned this from another pastor,
is that when our boys are grown, that they would desire to be near one another, that they would
desire to come back together with one another, that they would have that sort of relationship
with each other and with us. And there's a lot of work to do there. But honestly, that's the
biggest goal that we have for them is that they love one another and love us in a way that
the desire to be together is not a chore to get together.
That's beautiful. Yeah. Yeah, there's just a really important... I love what you said about
a goal for surrounding your kids with a community. I think that's, we would all say yes and amen to
that. But like really thinking about the intention, you know, the intention of that. We have felt,
we have felt so fortunate and blessed in our lives because we've had, you know, Andy and Julie,
and we've had, you know, two other couples, Brian and Kim and Matt and Courtney, there's the four
of us four couples that for the past 16 years, I really raised our kids together. I've had
lots of time to get. Oh my gosh, lots of times. The major, like a significant,
significant loss, significant grief, significant ups, ups and downs. But, but I,
you know, I think to myself, it's like boy, oh boy, though, my kids get to see a community
like that. And then that kind of sets the, like sets the bar for them, you know, which, which,
you know, I certainly hope that, that, uh, that the friends that they have in those,
in those couples, because when we get together now, there's a lot of kids, all 15 of them together,
which is like, feels like we're, you know, it's like a pot. It's like a Baptist potluck. Uh,
we, uh, but just as you said, Norm, like my hope would be that they would, that that community,
that they would know that they are loved, that they are, and actually for us to be actually
somewhat strategic really about surrounding them with that resource.
Andrew, that was just beautifully said. That was really, that's just a,
like it's a simple yet very profound thing, I think. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Well, Andy, are we,
are we to the, because Norm answered everything so beautifully and it's just been like this very
like intense reflective thing. We also now have to do the fun stuff. Oh yeah. Now it's time for
dudes and dads. Pop quiz. Thank you, Aaron James. All right. All right. All right. So the pop quiz is
anytime we just ask our guests random questions that have nothing to do with the topic and they
can't prepare for it. You know, normally when we do this topics Joel, we give them a little bit of
rundown what we're going to do like on the topic wise. We don't do that for the pop quiz. Absolutely
not. Just give them a random question. That's correct. With that, I will go ahead and ask you
What is your favorite gadget?
Oh, my favorite gadget.
Well, I'm not really a gadget guy, but
one of the things that have, it's not really a gadget, but it's really
intrigued me is, you know, we just did get a new van and
it connects automatically with my phone.
I've never had that.
I've never owned a vehicle past 2007.
And as soon as I get in and I push my profile, like it's all there.
It's beautiful, isn't it? Oh, gosh.
Yeah. It's such a wonder.
And it starts to play whatever I was listening to on Spotify last.
And it's just a great thing, which was definitely the dudes and dads podcast.
Well done.
Yes.
Okay. Here now.
This is a risk because in case Tara ends up listening to this episode,
this could go either way.
In a zombie apocalypse norm,
Who dies first? You or Tara? Oh, me 100%. Yeah. That's not even a question.
Okay. So tell us. So why do you think she has the upper hand on this?
I don't know if you guys are any gram type. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. We're deep. Yes. Deepen.
So I'm an, I'm an any gram nine. She's an any a gram one. Yeah. Yes. So she's absolutely gonna win.
I get it. Yeah. She's got, she's got all the exits marked even before like I even know where we're at.
She, yeah, she's got a plan.
She's got a plan for every possible scenario that could go wrong.
She's probably got one for the zombie apocalypse.
Okay, we're looking for when you get home tonight, you need to ask her.
Yeah, we want to see what's there.
Zombie apocalypse plan.
All right. So I see behind you that there's a bookshelf.
What book belongs on everybody's bookshelf?
Oh, there we go.
Oh, my goodness. What book belongs in not everybody?
Not at all. You know, let's say the Bible.
We'll just take that.
Let's say the Bible. Oh, that's a good one, though.
Yeah, it is, but it's obvious. So.
So OK, can we do confession time for a second?
Yeah, absolutely. Four here for.
Um, I'm so I'm not much of a reader outside of like ministry books.
And so it's hard to say a book that should be on everybody's bookshelf,
because I haven't read that many books outside of ministry books.
And, you know, every single one I've tried to start, I have not finished, basically.
So, but I am, I am listening through for any leaders out there.
I'm listening through Brene Brown.
I listen to books more than I read them.
Listen to some Brene Brown right now, Dare to Lead.
And that is just so, so challenging for me.
Talking about vulnerability and leadership and stuff.
And so, yeah, so good.
Bingo, mango.
OK, Norm.
Let's, let's see here.
You're you're you're on an airplane.
And you are next to a fellow, you know, a fellow passenger.
And they ask you would be as you would fellow passenger.
It's no empty unless you're in those tiny little airplanes that have the one C.
No, MTC.
Next to the person next to you and the person asks you what do you do for a living
in his succinct way as possible?
Well, badly explain your job to us.
Badly explain my job. Oh, that's hard.
Badly explain my job. I.
I I perform stand up weekly.
Yep. Religious. I badly perform bad religious stand up on a weekly basis. And one could
argue, don't get directly paid for that. That's like, it's the stand up part is it's like,
yes, that's for free. That's a free, that's a freebie, right?
Depending. Absolutely. Got you. Okay. All right.
All right, Norm, if you had to teach a class on one thing, what would you teach?
Oh man.
See, one would have to feel like they were actually an expert in something to desire to teach one thing.
Okay, so make up something that you would ditch.
Okay, make up something I would teach. Honestly, I would love to teach history. Okay.
I love the idea of history. I'm not a history buff, but every time I hear or learn of history,
I love it. So like high school history would be like, yeah, I think that'd be fun.
Okay.
Julie, your last question.
My last question. Thank you so much. Norm, please tell us about your most embarrassing
youth group experience.
Oh.
Like when I was in youth group or when I was leaving youth group?
Whenever. You and I either won. Either won. I'm just looking for deep embarrassment. Either way.
Deep embarrassment. Oh my gosh.
Okay. So this wasn't terribly embarrassing, but it could have gotten me into a lot of trouble.
Oh, even better. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So back in the old cell phone days, when you used to do like
the T9 texting, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So I texted all of our students and parents
that were all going on a retreat. And it should have been an email. It was like one of those
really big block texts on T9. It took so long to write. And as I was after I sent the message,
a parent responded back with just simply "Bring what?"
Question mark explanation, you know, and I went back and re-read my text and it was,
I intended to say, "To bring your bed and shower linens."
And the T9 somehow changed it to "Bring your beer and shower linens."
Oh, wow.
And, um...
What kind of camp are they going to?
Yeah.
Clearly reformed.
Clearly reformed church.
Yeah, clearly, clearly.
I'm so glad that.
I'm so glad that none of my students took me up on that.
(laughing)
That I know of anyway.
(laughing)
- I would feel embarrassed about that.
- Yeah, that's embarrassing.
- That's reasonably, yeah, it's a little embarrassing.
- Yeah, it's a little embarrassing.
- That's super funny.
Hey Norm, congratulations.
You have successfully passed the dudes and dads pop quiz.
Well done, well done.
- Thank you.
- If we had an award, we'd give it to you, but we don't.
Now this is a low budget operation.
(cheering)
Oh, there it is, okay.
(cheering)
- That is reward enough.
- Right, the claps from all of our studio audience.
- The claps, that's our new AI function, the claps.
They're cutting edge, cutting edge.
Oh gosh, Norm, thanks for coming on.
Thanks for hanging out with us.
Thanks for sharing.
Just at a personal level, Norm,
I'm just so grateful for the ministry that you're doing.
I'm grateful for the investment that you've made
not only in my life, but in the lives of other people.
even though you and I are a distance away and we don't see each other nearly as
much as I would like to. I'm just super grateful for you.
So I just want to let you know and say that in front of the bajillion people
they're listening right now.
And make sure we say also Tara, thanks for giving Norm some time. That's nice.
Yeah, it's always good. Appreciate it. Well, hey everybody,
as always can head over to dudesanddadspodcast.com for all the show notes.
We're going to make norm embarrassingly easy to find over there with the social
medias and all of that. So hey, feel free to check it out and any of our other
episodes. And if you have feedback, you can email feedback, add dudes and dads
podcast or 57421380702 is our voicemail number.
We love hearing you guys. We do. Leave us a leave us an audio message.
Guys, it's been another great time spending this little segment of your day
with you with us. Thanks for hanging out. We wish you all the best. And until next time, we wish you grace and peace.
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