Hello, welcome to the latest version of, uh, the Happy Manifesto podcast.

I'm Henry,

And I'm Maureen Egbe.

And today is with Michelle Hill.

And what I, uh, what I'd love about, uh, about this podcast

is that we talk to people who actually create happy workplaces,

which is what Michelle has done.

Maureen, tell me what your joy at work is or joy away from work.

Well, yes, it's joy away from work firm this time because it's

my, it was my birthday and I was celebrating my birthday, um, 23 again,

Absolutely.

and so the joy was actually taking time out to celebrate me in the Netherlands.

So I went to Rotterdam.

Fantastic experience.

I love Rotterdam.

Oh, I've never been there.

You've never been there?

I've been to Amsterdam, but not to Rotterdam.

I was going to say, because it's the world of cycling.

Indeed, isn't it?

it really inspired me to really just do a lot more cycling,

Oh, excellent.

Yes.

So that was my joy.

And what's your joy?

Well, I went to Korea a couple of weeks ago.

I went to speak at a conference and I went to do a one day, uh, version

of the, the Happy Workplace program.

And Korea's interest 'cause it traditionally was very

hierarchical, long hours culture.

In fact, um, it was only a couple of years ago that the government

set the maximum working time down from 68 hours to 52 hours.

Just 52

52 hours, but I was chatting to people there and they said, what,

what, what we'll be able to do.

We'll have to, we'll have to take up hobbies or something.

Um,

They could go cycling.

go, absolutely.

But what was interesting about the one day program was, uh, there was a professor

there who's going to be chair of the, uh, for a year of the Korean business.

Federation, and he's very keen on Happy management.

In fact, you know, they, they're all quite keen.

They've, uh, the Happy Manifesto is now in Korean and they all, um, were very

keen to have the author of it there, and they all took a selfie with me, you know.

Um, and so, but the key, but the thing about Korea is that when they go for

something, they really go for it.

So I'm really quite hopeful that they might actually put in place

some happy management ideas.

So we'll have to keep watching this space.

I don't mind if you take me to Korea with you next time, Henry.

Just saying.

May well do Moen.

May well do.

Okay.

Over now to Michelle Hill.

Today we have Michelle Hill, who is Chief Executive of TLC.

So, um, tell me, Michelle, what does TLC do?

So, TLC is a relationship charity.

We are based in Greater Manchester, but delivery and services across the country.

So a whole range of services all designed to have help people have

safe, healthy, happy relationships.

We have worked quite a bit with you, haven't we?

Um, so tell me how, how you've created a happy workplace at TLC.

Well, I, I suppose should start by saying, I thinking, I think

we've got a happy workplace.

I think that's what I would say at the moment.

It always feels like you've gotta be careful, doesn't it when you say that.

But I suppose happy workplaces, we've got loads of bits and pieces that we do.

But we've recently just some training that you've done with us.

So we've trained all of our frontline managers and all of our aspiring managers

in what it means to be a happy leader.

And they're currently working really hard to try and work

out how do they implement that.

And the first thing they're doing is working out what's TLC's approach

to line management gonna be.

So kinda lifting up all of that learning that they've done from the

training and then making, so a TL TLC approach to line management.

And what is a TLC approach to line management?

Well, so I don't really know yet because they've not finished it.

So it's very kind of, piece of work that's led by the team, but I think

include things like, um, flexibility, like meeting people where they wanna be met.

So that's, you know, that might be a meeting, that might be a walk, that might

be a coffee shop, that might be lunch.

Kind of a mixture of coaching, personal development, career progression work.

So I think lots of approaches that are all very much based on the person and what's

appropriate for them, rather than just putting people in a box and following a, a

more formulaic client management approach.

And very much based on people,

Very much based on people.

Yeah.

So the other thing that we've done is that we've got, um, three new TLC values, which

are safe, authentic, and person centered.

That's our three values for the organization that have come through

a kind of year long process of staff engagement and consultation.

Um, so we've had like a working group, we've been putting it together and it

kind of culminated back in December.

We had a all staff conference, so they've got 150 people in the team.

So 150 people who voted in a collaborative way on the kind of

three values that we were gonna have.

So safe, authentic, person centered for the three that came out, and

they're now doing lots of work in terms of how do we bring that to life?

So what does it mean to be an organization who's safe,

authentic, and person centered?

So in theory, everything that we do, every leadership decision,

every business decision should be tested against those three values.

And if we're not living those values, then there should be an opportunity for

people to hold us to account against that.

And this is very much not based on you deciding what, what, uh,

happened, but on them deciding.

Absolutely.

So there's more and more like that.

So we've also got a, um, staff improvement group, which is a group of a number of

staff across the organization who have a, the opportunity to kind of critique.

The organization and suggest things that need to, we need to do differently.

So it is led by, um, a couple of members of staff across the organization who just

put their hand up and we were excited to lead it and they've load of things.

So like defining what our soft survey looks like, defining what the soft

communication looks like, telling us things that we do well, and also

things we could do a lot better.

So it's very much around decisions being made across the organization

rather than just in a hierarchical way.

Right.

So do you make any decisions?

I am trying to make less and less.

I think I probably do still make some, um, but we are definitely going

for that kind of coaching approach.

We've got, um, a succession in progression plan at the moment so that everybody

looks, so we've got a kind of whole rate, like a menu of options around if

people wanna have a look at their own career progression in the organization.

That might be in terms of growing their role in the organization,

or it might be about developing mastery in the role that they do.

So recognize that succession's not always about like becoming a manager.

It can be about just being brilliant at what you do.

So there's a whole range of things there, which is like being coached by

somebody different in the organization, shadowing people, observing things,

more formal training opportunities.

So the idea that people can kind of per plan their own career path, ideally

throughout your organization or, or into others, if that's what they need to do.

But coaching's a, a big part of that.

So you have two tracks of promotion, one for people who want to manage people, and

one for just being good at their core job.

Yeah.

So that's, that's the plan.

So I'd say we're not quite there with it yet.

And it's, you know, it's, we're learning and developing as we go,

but the plan is that, um, some people wanna manage people, don't they?

And some people are that, and some people don't.

And they're brilliant at the roles that they do, um, and get

better at it and do more at it.

So we're trying to create two different streams where people can choose what they

need to do to succeed and, and progress.

But they're in, they're in charge of their own destiny and career path really.

And tell me a little bit about pre-approval.

You've, I think you've done some of that, haven't you?

We've done lots of stuff around pre-approval.

Yeah.

So around giving people the information that they need to make the decisions

and then giving them freedom to go ahead and, and, and lead what that looks like.

So I suppose at the moment, one of the things that we've got, Is we've

got three staff networks in the organization, so that's networks for

staff with protected characteristics.

So we've got a for staff who identify as people of color.

One for staff who identify as LGBTQIA+, and one for staff,

um, who've got disability.

And the, the staff with a disability, one came out of a staff suggestion.

So, uh, Induction day into the organization, we talk about the staff

networks and say quite openly, like, you know, we, we might not have the right

ones, if you wanna put yourself, if you think of what we're missing, let us know.

If you wanna lead one, let us know.

Um, and the staff, the staff, the network for staff with a

disability came out of that.

So that was a new member of staff who said, I've got disability, I

don't know what my network is, and they then set it up and led it.

But approval's pretty key to the way the networks work.

So it's a.

paid facilitator role.

So they're all members of staff across the organization in different roles,

but paid in a leadership role for 10 hours a month to facilitate that work.

And, um, have some time every six weeks with me in terms of what they're

the, what the network are finding out.

And the plan is that they, um, are both a safe space for people in the

organization, but also somewhere that that group of people in that

network can lead the organization.

So can challenge us on what we need to do better, can hold us right down,

can suggest things that we need to do.

But the pre-approval is almost that they've got a kind of

remit that with anything within their perspective characteristic

they can challenge and lead on.

So there's been some amazing things.

So the staff, the network for staff with disability have led to kind of massive

changes in our staff sickness policy.

They didn't think our staff sickness policy was.

Appropriate about people in probation.

So they've changed that.

Uh, um, people of color group have suggested that we adopt the Halo code,

which is around people being encouraged to wear their hair in their own

cultural style, and that being something that's recognized and celebrated.

They've a prayer and wellbeing room in the organization, so there's

somewhere for people to go and pray.

Um, they've led kind of celebration events, so our, our LGBTQ network are

currently leading all our activity around Pride across the northwest.

So they've got eight Prides I think that they're, they're trained to

attend over the summer period.

So massive changes in the organization, but directly like linked to that

kind of pre-approval of that network facilitator on that network

and off they go and run with it.

And so it sounds like they've got some fabulous bits of

wellbeing in the organization.

Do you still manage to deliver.

We do.

Yeah, we do.

And actually it.

I think it's that thing.

You know what our, our, one of our sayings is around people

bringing their whole self to work.

And if our, one of our values is being authentic and we're a relationship

charity, we wanna invest as much time in our team and their own relationships

at work, and we want 'em to have, you know, a workplace where they wanna be

valued and they wanna stay and they wanna do their best, and I think the more we

invest in wellbeing and the team being happier, the better the results are.

So the, the growth in the last few years in terms of the number of

people that we work with and people that we support and the areas that

we serve, it's just been phenomenal.

But so much led by the team and we've got people been with us

all the way through the journey.

Lots of different roles, lots of different stages, and it's a lovely place to be.

You know, we make mistakes, but hopefully we're open about that and

learn from them and don't shy away from them, um, because you can't take risks

without getting something's wrong.

Um, but yeah, there's a definitely a direct correlation to people feeling

like they've got a shaping, leading what the organization does and stands

for, and the results that we have, it's a, it's definitely a causal link.

So happy staff leads to happy customers.

Hundred percent.

A hundred percent.

And, and if we were a relationships charity, if we

don't do it, then who does do it?

No, indeed.

It's like what, what it says on the tin, isn't it?

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

And any other ways you create a happy workplace.

Some of what we've done is around giving people the opportunities to form

relationships across the organization.

So friendships and, you know, being somewhere that you want to come to work.

Um, So some of that has been about recognizing that we do a, people as

our team do really, really hard jobs.

So they work with people when they're in a really difficult place and they

need somewhere to kind of decompress.

So psychological safety really matters to us.

So part of that is around having really good clinical supervision

and you know, spaces for them to go.

But it's also been around actually that network of social activity.

So we've got our kind of network, staff networks, which are all

our protective characteristics.

And then we've got a whole series of, um, staff activities,

which are completely voluntary.

If people wanna join in them, nobody has to.

But we've got Dungeons and Dragons sessions that happen once a month.

We've got a, a book group that meets and we've got a a group for staff

who are going through the menopause and we've got a mental health first

aiders, and we've got a whole series of kind of interactive staff activities.

We've got a social committee and we're all always organizing different social

activities and asking for increased levels of budget to be able to do that.

And like the series of team building activities.

So we're all designed around creating relationships across the team.

So again, it's that thing about, I think I remember being on a, something that

you, I think said Henry around, you know, people wanting a best friend at works.

You know, people want to feel that connection in the organization.

So we invest quite a lot of time in that.

And at the same time then trying to create an opportunity where

we're non as non-hierarchical as possible in the way that we work.

So we do a coffee and cake session with me every month, which is a

come and come and drink coffee.

I don't drink coffee, but it's normally come and drink coffee and eat cake.

But the opportunity to either hear as much as you want about

what's happening at TLC with as of being as transparent as possible.

Um, or sometimes we just sit and chat about TV and holidays.

But again, it's that kind of real openness around what's happening.

And then last year, at the end of, and beginning of this year, I spent

a period of time meeting everybody individually in the organization.

So, you met all 150 people?

I did, and it was the highlight of my day every day.

So just the opportunity to connect with people, find out what drives them, why

they work for TLC, what matters to them, it was definitely the most inspiring

thing I've done in the last 12 months.

But again, all aligned around that kind of how do you create connection.

And how do you hear honestly what people think and what matters to them.

so, it sounds like you're a people person.

Yes, I think I am.

Yeah, I think that, I think you can, I think you kinda have to

be in a relationship sector.

Absolutely.

So you've been in this role since I think, 2013, is that right?

Oh gosh.

Yeah, so we first few years we were relate grade to Manchester South, and then we

formed TLC on the 1st of April, 2017.

Okay.

And how have you moved from, presumably, were you originally

a hierarchical organization to, to, to, to what you've done now?

Well, I think we've got an interesting story, so we.

2000 when I joined.

We'd been in the Late Federation since the 1980s, and then quite a traditional

relationship counseling organization.

And actually that was a, it was a, a vote of all of our members

of staff at the time, all of our volunteers and all of our trustees.

And it was a unanimous decision to leave the federation and set up independently.

So I suppose when we set up, we had some of the traditions of an organization that

had been around for a while, but also lots of energy and creativity as a startup.

And I think it's that approach that we've tried to keep all the way through.

So we're, you know, we're a charity, we're a registered charity, we're a

company limited by in terms of our structure, but we operate much more

entrepreneurially than that really.

So we see ourselves kind of in that social entrepreneurial marketplace really.

So it is not wanting to recreate really traditional structures, but been able

to move quickly to meet where demand is and to meet people where they need.

So have you always wanted to go to this level or has it

been a journey uh, over time

it's a hundred percent been a journey and it still is a journey.

So we've only, we went national about 12 months ago, and we've

always been in the north.

And we've just started some work in the south.

So we're in Bedfordshire and Hertfordshire and a project that got five last week,

which is definitely not the north.

So it's a journey that's ever changing.

And I think probably the bit of anything that keeps me up at night is how do we

keep the culture as we grow and change?

You know, so it was easy when we were all based in one building and then the

pandemic changed that, and then post pandemic we had to work differently.

And now we're operating nationally, how do you get that culture across

to people who maybe don't come into where our head office is, or based in

Bedfordshire and Hertfordshire, how do they get the sense of who we are

when we're not with them all the time?

And I think we're just gonna have to keep learning and train and doing new things.

That is really interesting, isn't it?

So how did the pandemic change things?

How did, has it affected the culture?

I think it has, I think in a positive way.

So we were quite buildings based before, probably partly

because we'd got buildings.

So we, we owned a building and we we're in a long-term lease

and therefore that's what you do.

And then during the pandemic, because like most organizations, financially, we

were up against it at the beginning, we had to think quite creatively and like

everybody, you know, you pivot to online delivery, like we all did it back in 2020.

And then without a building we had to work differently at how you created a culture.

And in some ways it's been really positive.

So like we do coffee and cake where we do a virtual coffee

and cake really regularly.

So at the moment we've just had some, uh, got some messages out around

our kind of national growth and our new Bedfordshire, um, program.

And it meant I managed to speak to about a quarter of the organization

in a day, like either, either on a teams call or a Zoom call or in person.

We could never have got messages out like that previously.

And that kind of connection with people is easier.

So, but we're very much now believing in people have got the choice.

So some people prefer face-to-face, you know, in-person communication.

Some people working remotely worked really well for them.

So as an organization, we've, we've got, we've given people the choice

about how much they're in the office, so we trusted people to work and

I'm like, why shouldn't we now?

Absolutely.

And in terms of your clients, the, you know, the, the, the people with

the, you know, have the relationships presumably beforehand that you

always work with them in person.

Did what's, what's the case now?

Do you work in person or, or, or online?

A bit of both.

So it's a real mixture again.

So what we're trained to do is give the people that we work with, the clients we

work with, the choice of how they wanna engage with us, and to engage with us in

the way that they think is right for them.

Some of our group work has been better in person, but some of it's

worked really, really well online.

So where we've got really, we do a lot of work around domestic abuse.

We do work around families and couples who are separating.

Actually sometimes online is safe and easier to navigate and people

can find us outside of distractions.

But then I work with children and young people is much, much better in person

when you're sat in a room with a child, a young person, and you're doing a group.

But now it's, it's very much around giving people the choice

about how they want to engage.

You know, some people love screens, don't they now?

And that's the, that's the way they wanna engage.

Some people are desperate to get off them at the end of the day.

Yes.

Yes indeed.

Um, and so tell us how, how does Happy helped you?

'cause we've done quite a bit of training with you.

How have we helped you?

Well, so I suppose this starting off with me, I've done quite a bit of, bit

of time with you in lots of different ways, and that's really helped.

Shape my view of leadership, I think, and I came in to leadership and came into

a chief exec role believing that it was all around people, but maybe didn't quite

know how to do some of it as we've grown.

And I think there's always a balancing act isn't it, because you, you know,

you, you worried about your bottom line, you're worried about how much money you've

got in the bank, you're worried about the performance of the organization.

So I don't know if, for me, one of the things was almost the permission around

focusing on people and being workplace was a, a good business decision as well

as a, you know, as well as a nice thing to do, actually it made business sense.

So I think that was really helpful for me 'cause I think I wanted to hear that

because that's the way I learned anyway.

But then we've done some work with all of our teams.

So Happy have done some training for us with our senior leadership team, with

all of our frontline managers and with our aspiring leaders in the organization.

So all around implementing that approach to happy, happy

management, happy leadership across all areas of the organization.

And that's been brilliant.

Really, really brilliant.

And you can see the nuggets of it starting to shine through.

You can see people train pre-approval.

You can see people looking differently around team development,

um, coaching rather than telling.

You can see it starting to change.

You can see people asking questions, trying to drive decisions down as much

as you can, so the decisions are made by the person who needs to make them, and

they're not always just set back up again.

And I think the happy leadership work has really made us think around learning.

And we've also, so the thing is that one of our senior team

has been on the Happy MBA.

She's been brilliant as well to see, to see Emily go through the kind of

real embedding of that happy leadership approach, you know, and kind of

real like level of detail with it.

But I think it's led to this approach to learning across the organization.

So we've just launched, um, or we're just about to launch actually something

called the innovation hub, which is our opportunity of testing out

new projects, new ways of working.

So at the moment it's very much thinking about AI and how do

we use AI in the organization.

How will you use AI in the organization?

in lots of ways, I think, but in a way that's human-centric, in a way

that recognizes that it can strengthen organizations and people, but we don't

want it to take away from people.

But the leadership approach and the, the happy training thing's led to this

innovation hub, which is very much around people learning and trying.

And actually sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't but that's okay.

And we have lots of learning circles where we try and learn from where

it hasn't worked and work out what we can implement to make it better.

But that, I think that fail failure's okay, and, and we all make mistakes.

And, and, and hopefully, so we've had a coaching session today with a couple

of members of staff who are gonna be TLC ambassadors in Manchester for us.

So we'll represent our organization externally.

And we were doing some coaching today.

And one of the things that we talked about is like, you

know, we, we've got your back.

It's okay to go into meetings and say the wrong thing or to think you've

right, and then panic and make a mistake.

And there's something about knowing that your organization's got your

back in that and that you, it's, it's a safe space to have a go.

So of course, you know, we Happy talks about celebrating mistakes.

Do you, do you, do you go with that?

Well, so I would say I think we've got further to go on it, if I'm honest.

I think, uh, me, it, it links to our value of being authentic

and that's authentic about what goes well, but also what doesn't.

So opening up about the mistakes that we make, and I suppose I try and do it

by example, so I try and be like really open about where I've tried things, or

where, you know, where you nervous or where you've not prepared as well as you

should have done, or where you feel like you've gone into a situation you could

have done better or where we've made the wrong decisions, I try and be really open

about it in the conversations that I have and the conversations I have with my team.

And then you do hear people start to do the same.

So we're not quite at the same of having a kind of formal celebration of it.

Um, although I think some teams are further down the line.

So our, we've got a business intelligence and a team of data analysts and,

um, they very much do every project they do a kind of celebration of

what's gone wrong, what's gone well, and, and they learn from, and they

kind of recognize, like, and, and just put it into the next project.

So what'd you do with data analysis then?

What's the,

So we've got a, so a huge amount of data around the services that we

deliver and the impact that they have.

So all about, you know, do services, do the services we deliver, make

relationships safer, healthier, happier, but huge amount of.

And what we try and do is put data at people's fingertips so that are, so it's

all available, it's all cloud-based, so it's all available at the touch

of a button so that teams can see how they're performing, you know, how

that compares to other, other teams.

They've got, we measure the distance traveled for people.

So what, how, how is their relationship at the beginning?

How is it partway through?

How is it at the end?

So how can you see the impact that we've, that we've made?

And the data, um, analyst team, the business intelligence team are

brilliant at helping us learn from that.

So, you know, what's the impact in one part of the country compared to the other?

What's the impact for, uh, with people with different demographics?

You know, are we reaching the communities that we're, that we're in?

Are we underrepresented in some or overrepresented in others?

So how do we use data to make services better, but also then make it accessible?

And tell me your three tips for a happy workplace.

So three tips.

One is being authentic, so bring bringing your whole self to work and doing that

so that you enable others to do that.

Number two is about always listening.

Yeah.

And being open to ideas and recognizing that ideas come from anywhere, and often

the best ideas aren't the ones you have yourself or the ones that other people.

Absolutely, aren't they?

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

And the third one's about being happy to fail.

So recognizing that if you wanna do something new or exciting, or you wanna

make a real difference and make a real impact, you don't always get it right.

And that's okay as long as you commit to learning from it and being open about it.

That's the three things.

So I think my three are all really about psychological safety and

authenticity and being person centered, which is our three values.

But I there's di a direct link across to a happy workplace.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Well, thank you very much, Michelle for that.

You're very welcome.

Lovely to speak to you.

Oh, that was really good.

Michelle was awesome.

There was so much in there.

You know, I mean, from the outset, the values, you know, safe, authentic

person center, and being brave enough to actually challenge and really find out

what does that mean to the organization, not just coming up, just words for

values, but you know, actually trying to live it and incorporate it and make

sure that everybody's involved and making sure that they live to their values.

Absolutely.

And I just love it when people actually do put into practice the

ideas of, of happy workplaces.

You know, and it, what's clear from from that is that it's, it is become a

really great, great culture at uh, TLC.

And again, the simplest things of that, you know, if people

are happy at work, then your customers are gonna be happy also.

So, um, do review this podcast if you like.

Let us know on your favorite platform.

Send us a message, review, give us a thumbs up, share some ideas.

And remember the actual Happy site, the podcast site is happen.

Manifesto, the happy site is www.happy.co.Uk.

So do check us out as well.

So Henry, I think it's just left to everybody.

Just, going forward and creating happy workplaces.

There you go.

Bye for now.

Bye.