If we are questioning the current system, and we show people that their safety cues in their environment might be danger cues, we have to present them a whole new system rather than just to say Bitcoin is good. I think the humans are very altruistic and giving and helping people is the best antidepressants out there on the market right now. The altruistic part of us cannot be triggered if we do not feel safe. So if I do not have a system I live in where I can predict something, then I'm not feeling safe and then I can't be altruistic. And this is what is destroying us right now in a certain way.

Hey, everybody. Welcome to Orange Hatter. My mission for the Orange Hatter podcast is that after tuning in and hearing about everyday women's stories and their path to Bitcoin, you think, Hey, if Bitcoin made a difference for them, maybe it could do the same for me. I'm so glad you're here. And I know you're going to love today's episode. Welcome.

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Hey Liv, welcome to Orange Hatter. I'm so happy you're here. Thank you for joining us today.

Hi, Teli. I'm so happy to be here and thank you so much for having me.

Awesome. Let's dive into your background a little bit. Tell us a little bit about yourself.

I'm originally from Germany, where I've studied psychology. And I've moved one and a half years ago to America because my husband is originally from here. We actually met in New Zealand while traveling, and then we decided to stay together, and we lived for two years together in Germany while I finished my master's there, and then we moved around one and a half years ago here to, to America, and While we were in Germany and COVID hit and all those restrictions were a thing and the world was a little bit upside down. I was at the end of my master's and I had to get a couple of seminars on behavioral economics. And what I've learned was how irrational we humans are. And so I had a very interesting seminar specifically on the crash in 2008. We had to read a couple of chapters of the book of Daniel Kahneman. He won the Nobel Prize for economics and because he wrote a book on how irrational humans are and yeah, he is a super smart professor originally from Israel and I was thrown off by how This whole thing in 2008 actually happened from a psychological point of view. We we learned that a lot of people like who worked for banks gave out loans just because they thought those people were nice and looked like they can pay off the loan, but didn't really check for. Actually yeah, if they have jobs and if they can really afford to pay off that, so we were learning about this and how also 2008 was handled that the poor people were suffering from that the most and that there weren't any consequences for the bankers necessarily. And at the same time, my husband was talking about Bitcoin all the time. I was a little bit annoyed at that time. I have to admit, because he was talking in the morning, in the evening about it. And he was just. nonstop talking about it. And I was like, okay, is it about Bitcoin again? And I now since I'm in America, I connected with a couple of women and they said that we went through the same thing. So no worry. So I, I was a bit. Interested in a certain way, but also annoyed at the beginning, but then yeah we did a lot of hikes. You couldn't really do a lot during COVID, so it's really nice in Germany. You just leave the village and you just go for a hike wherever you are. And we talked a lot and he explained Bitcoin constantly on a deep level. And then I connected at some point, like what happened in 2008 and how all of that happened and why it happened that it is actually because we humans are so irrational, and I'm not always thinking that clear or making that those good decisions, how we think of us, we do. And to the topic of Bitcoin, something which helps us to. To exchange something to trade something internationally wide, but it's a currency, which is not affected by the inflation at all. And so I thought it was so interesting. And this is yeah, my background regarding Bitcoin. And then we came last year to America and my husband said there's in Miami, the Bitcoin conference, why don't we go there? Right before we arrive in America and then actually fly to where we're going to live. I was like, all right, here we go. Let's go to Miami. And I arrived there and he was helping out on a boat. Like, how do you say that? I don't know. Like on the conference, he helped out there with someone from a 3D printing company. I think it's Max. And so I was a little bit on my own, but I met really cool people there. I enjoyed the time. I attended a couple of presentations or talks, I had to, I have to admit, it wasn't that I was thinking like, Oh, this is amazing here. I was thinking it's all about money here. Then you, enter the hall where there are so many companies who are like, Hey, you get a deal here and give us your information here. And you get a little extra gift here and there. And it was a lot about money and. It was in a certain way for me, a bit superficial, but of course, when, diving deeper into Bitcoin conversation with people it was. Yeah, very good in its own way and very meaningful rather than the superficial conference, which I didn't really like. I appreciated though that Dr. Jordan Peterson was there because I really enjoyed his talk and I was very I was sitting in the crowd and he was talking about how. He doesn't know how Bitcoin will go in the future. Like he got he said literally we think it's so amazing and so great of the tool, but we don't really know if things will work the way we think they will work because it's very unlikely that a prediction will go the way we think it will go from what humans have experienced so far. This is not always how it goes. And so I was thinking I was sitting there in this. In this crowd, I was thinking Bitcoiners are not going to like hear that, but everyone was cheering him and I was surprised in that moment and thought maybe I'm missing something here. Maybe it is not as superficial as I think it is here. So nevertheless, I left Miami. And thought, cool, some rich people meet here and have a fun time in Miami. And then we arrived in Michigan and my husband started the meetup here. He was very like into that, very engaged and participating in this Bitcoin community and helping to grow it. And I appreciated that he's so enthusiastic about that and that he wants to give something to the community. What do you actually see in a lot of Bitcoiners? I have the feeling everyone wants to share. Everyone wants to provide something. And we went to Lansing one time and they were out of a sudden, those people, a little bit older than 50, and they were using miners to dehydrate their food. They were growing food and they were doing all those crazy things in nowhere. Like you literally drove two hours and then you arrive somewhere in a hall, like a big hall and there's little, a little lake, which is called by the way, Lake Satoshi and out of a sudden, there are those big cars. And then they have and they bought all the bank and there's a Trezor, like an old, very old Trezor. And that's full of Bitcoin stuff. This whole old bank has handouts on Bitcoin, the white papers on the wall and all those kind of things. And I was like, what are we doing here? And then Mike, who is One of the organizers, besides Ben and PF, who are running the meetup there, was like, Hey Liv, how are you doing? I was like, good. And he's so do you have any questions regarding Bitcoin? And I was like, yeah, I do not understand everything in detail. And he's yeah, okay, come with me. And he has that like, And there's the mempool and everything. And he explains to me everything. And I was like, what is happening here? And so those people from, are from point of view, very grounded, very connected to nature. They all have gardens or something going on. A lot Bitcoineries in Michigan, also the South Bend, sorry, it's the Benton Harbor meetup. All those people are in Ann Arbor. They have a meetup now where everyone is into those topics of farming, sovereignty, and I just loved it. And so then we met Carl, who is the down in Benton Harbor or South Bend closer to that area. And he's running his permaculture project with 30 sheep and chickens and all those kinds of things. And also like very grounded people. And I was just like thinking, this is so cool here. And this reminded me a lot also of those events, Katie, the Russian is organizing where it's all about the whole system, not just about money. It's about what do we eat? How can we improve that more woman can give birth in a normal way rather than having a C section. How can we improve our medical treatment and all of those kinds of other topics, which are very fundamental. And so I thought it was just so amazing to experience it that way. And this is what got me really into Bitcoin.

I love what you said about how Bitcoin is not just about money and that conference that you were at was my first time. In a Bitcoin conference and like you, I didn't want to go and listen to speakers speaking at me from a stage I went to the floor and I talked to people eyeball to eyeball because I wanted a person telling me about Bitcoin, from two feet away so I can feel if they are sincere because you can get a lot from people's vibe, right? And I bugged these vendors to no end with so many questions and they were patient with me, but it was what convinced me finally that we needed to participate in this space and so in that way I think we're very similar and I went to the Jordan Peterson talk as well and afterwards Scott and I were talking about it and the same thing that you just said was what I said I'm like he's the only person who raised that question which is what are the unintended consequences of Bitcoin because everybody 99. 9 percent of people in the space are very optimistic, right? We believe in the fundamentals. We think it's going to be the solution to world problems, but he was the only one who said, what are we not seeing? And I love that honesty about him. So I just really resonated with what you shared about what you got out of the conference. And yes, people were applauding because I feel like Bitcoiners are quite open minded in general, we are willing to consider different points of view, which is so unlike the rest of the world these days. I feel like it's just an echo chamber on whatever side you stand in, that's the echo chamber you stand in. But in Bitcoin space, I think we're pretty open to consider all the possibilities. So that's been really cool. So you got involved in permaculture and I'm very fascinated by that because as we discussed before we recorded, I have failed miserably in my own attempts, my own fault because I didn't do any research. But yeah, let's talk more about that. What are you guys doing on the farm and how are you learning from other Bitcoiners?

Since I didn't have my green card for quite a while and I was waiting for the work permit, I didn't really know what to do here. And I always loved nature. I grew up in Germany in a village with 900 inhabitants. And since we. Have two farms in that village with cattle, goats, sheep, chickens. And you literally, even if you don't have any animals you can get your eggs from everywhere. Like you just ask someone like, do you sell some eggs today? And of course, you have all the resources and all the access to really good food. And so my parents, for example, they budget every year, a quarter of a cow. And just down the street, and it is very well connected and really good food in Germany. There are also certain certificates which show that vegetables or animals were treated in a biodynamic way, so they don't use any pesticides or anything. So you can also go in a supermarket and get really good food. Coming here to America. I was thrown off a little bit. You can go here in America, probably to really good farmers markets, but they are also hard to find. And often it takes them some time to drive there because they're not everywhere. And then you also sometimes limited to what you can get there. And it's also expensive, especially Because of the inflation, especially products like farm, like products, they go up in price the most. This is actually what's written and say for Dean's a moose, a book, the Fiat standard that those kinds of products are affected the most by the inflation. So I said to my husband I'm not working anyways. Why shouldn't we get involved in this little farm here? Because we live with my parents in law, and they have a little farm going anyways. And I said I can help out my father in law. So I took over the chickens. We have now, at the moment, 80 chickens. We will butcher, though, around 20 to 25 in two months. And That was a lot of fun, right? From the beginning, a lot of chickens are very naughty, unfortunately, so they got out of the fence and then I had to think about solutions. I experienced that nature is not really predictable and can really challenge humans. And first of all, I started off with those chickens and then I started breeding them. So this year I bred 30 chickens. And last year around 20 and we have a lot of gardens around five gardens with a lot of plans like 120 tomato plants. From my father in law, I have around. I would say 25 broccoli plants this year I raised from seed and then I have around 15 celery plants I raised from seed and I haven't done much before except that I always a little bit helped out my mom back home she's also having her gardens but yeah it's all new to me and I think it is so important to learn stuff like this to know how it works and it actually is very fulfilling and then we got to know Carl and his wife, Carl Goldsberry Rathoddle, and he's running this permaculture project close to Benton Harbor, and he has sheep. And I always thought, while I'm not working, I could actually get into either having goats or sheep. Not necessarily cattle because they're pretty big and you have to have certain equipment to be able to have cattle. So I said something little and Raphallo has sheep and he said They're low maintenance. They're a specific kind of sheep. They are very resistant when it comes to parasites, and they can stay outside during the wintertime, which is really good because we don't have an option to bring animals in the barn. In the barn are chickens, so there's no more space left. We said actually, that sounds pretty good to us. We bought two pregnant sheep in April this year, and then they gave birth in May. And we got five little ones. And that was a very interesting experience. Getting up at nighttime, hearing them making noises and being there while they're born, and then being part of the whole process of observing them, how they grow or how they struggle and where they need support. And yeah, I think it's a lot of fun. It's sometimes driving me crazy if they get out of the fence and are naughty and cross the street. And I'm just thinking, how did that happen that they cross the street where there is a lot of traffic going on? And seven sheep survived passing the street. So I'm also right now thinking I hope they're in that pen because they got already out this morning But yeah, it's a lot of fun on the one hand, but it's also work. So I don't want to Give everyone the impression that it's so romantic and always going well but it's fun definitely and it's meaningful and I think that's the important one that it is meaningful work and It's also important that we learn that things are not always working out the way we want it to for our own mental growth. Okay.

okay, here's the problem that I have thinking about raising my own animals, especially watching them be born and raising them from babies. How are you going to eat them? They're like your babies.

Yeah. I don't know what happened with me, but I was always thinking the same way. And then I raised chickens. And if you raise chickens. The probability isn't that low that you raise a female chicken. It's actually very high. That's that it is a male chicken. And last year I was just experimenting around. I was just doing what I thought I could do right now. Let's put some eggs in the incubator and see what happens. And then we were standing there in October, November, and there were those 10 roosters in our chicken coop driven by testoterone. They were super aggressive and crazy in a certain way. They were just jumping from one hen to the next one. So I entered the chicken coop and everyone was sitting in their roosting area. And I wanted to feed them, so the first hens were coming down from the roosting area, and the roosters were jumping on them right away. So it was a disaster, and sometimes the hens would just run up to me, knowing they would be safe around me. They were so scared, and we had that really beautiful, colorful rooster. And I bred him together with a really nice hen. Their name is Peter and Rosa. And they were our breeding chickens for the last year's season. And they were running around outside. And we just, we made that funny joke and gave them names. And interestingly twelve, from twelve chickens, ten were roosters. And I don't know what happened in this moment, but those roosters were just nasty. And then I said to my husband, we have to take them out because our hens are not laying anymore. They're scared. They're getting beaten up. And then you experience nature being brutal in its own way. And then it helped me to be okay with butchering a rooster. And I killed. a rooster. I would have never thought that I would be able to do that. But it's just the connection. I'm losing this kind of fear of like being connected to nature and my own survival. If I'm not eating, I have a problem. And I think we cannot live off just vegetables because what Raph Hottle, Carl is saying, those animals are a battery. They eat during the summer and then during wintertime they restore value. And we can eat them during the winter time and we will be okay. I think it is important that I'm able to kill my own animals if I want to eat. And I am interested in how it will go with the sheep because we haven't butchered them yet. But yeah, I think it will be okay, It's just what other option do we have? I feel like we have the option throughout the last decades to always go towards this kind of statement or this kind of philosophy, easy choices. Like we can always go for easy choices. We just have to go to the supermarket and we will be fine. And we can fly everywhere and we can go on vacation and we can do a lot of things, which is what the fiat standard and the capitalism created for us. But it has also its downsides. So I think that having always the option to get everything we want. Brings us to a state where we are not having any aims anymore goals in life anymore. And that makes it a bit tricky because I think it's very important to have a goal in life to go towards something and also to face that things are not always working out the way we think they will work out and also to do things. Which aren't nice because this is actually how life goes. It's an up and down of we have to face something which is hard, a hardship, and then things will be okay again because we acknowledge and appreciate things way more if they're also sometimes like those reminders that life can be hard and we should be very thankful. And I have sometimes the feeling like I worked in the area of neuropsychology in Germany and I had a lot of clients who are coming into my office and said, I had a stroke last week and I'm super, super scared that it will happen again. And we see it very often that people who have had a stroke that they get depressed very easily, especially men. And I had the feeling they have never even thought about the option that life could end or that something goes wrong. But most of the time they were having high positions like CEO positions or something like this. They had kids, family, everything went well. And then all of a sudden things change and then they have to figure out, okay, what is my strategy here right now to compensate this, like to be okay with that it didn't work out the way I thought it would be that life can end. And this is what nature teaches me, and I'm not going to be happy and I might even cry when we take out our sheep because I love them. But. Yeah. Sacrifice the lamb. This is what's written and in a very ancient book, the Bible. So I think there is something to it. And my husband is saying the same thing. A lamb is very precious. When we lost one of the lambs while they were being born and we maybe we would have been able to help the lamb because the mucosa was wrapped around its head and the mom couldn't get the mucosa off. Yeah. the placenta. So the mom didn't have a chance to help her baby to not die because it couldn't breathe. And we were approaching in the morning, the pen, and we heard two little sheep or lamb were like making noises. So we were like, Oh, this is so cute. And this was the first time that we experienced that one of our sheep gave birth. And then I saw there was a dead lamb laying and That is something so different than any other animal, I would say. They're very precious, they're very meaningful, and so I think it's very hard to give them away. But I think that's, yeah, something which helps us to accept that life is the way it goes. It is about a cycle of life. It's about being born and dying. And this is what I think about that.

I think you're so right in that the past few decades have made life so easy that we start to have a quite distorted view of how things work. So one of the examples I can share when I felt that was when I stopped buying meat from the grocery stores, and I was buying exclusively from a beef farmer. And When you go on their website, they are out of stock often of different parts of the animal. So for the chickens, they would sell out of the legs and then for the beef, they might sell out of a certain kind of cut or they're, they might be out of the bones. And those are limited quantities, like the smallest quantities on an animal, right? On every chicken you get Two legs. And if you package them up, you're going to sell out of them quickly. It's not like the grocery store where chicken legs are unlimited. And anytime you want chicken legs, you can go there and get it because that's how they're produced. But when you go to a family farm, you realize that everything is finite. If you sell out, you got to wait. Sometimes they sell out milk because They're just out. And it's the season when the cows are feeding their own babies and they're not taking the milk from the mom. And then you just have to wait. And learning to go with that cycle was actually a mental adjustment for me.

Yeah, I can totally understand that like that changes something in us. Bitcoin does that too. And that's the interesting thing. Like I sometimes hear those young men or women saying, yeah, I was investing in ethereum I was investing in this and this and everything went well, but then it didn't went well and then it wasn't up and down and started to annoy me at some point and then I saw Bitcoin and like it and the appreciation of Bitcoin that it is limited in Bitcoin. And we won't have the option to just create more is I think what changes humans and their thinking, because all of a sudden, we have to work towards something, and we have more a goal where it's like, As of now, the society is just spending money, how the system is set up to the system wants us to spend money to help the economy grow. But what is being created is not really valuable. For example, what we get from China. But people still I sometimes have the feeling tell themselves the story that they get whatever they want and that everything is great the way it is. And so ignorance is bliss in a certain way. But, we humans in general, we want more and more. What we see is that people create amazing or maybe crazy events to have a baby shower or a bachelorette's party. So they go, for example, to Hawaii to have a bachelorette's party. That wasn't even a thing back in the days. Back in the days, it was all about friends are coming together and having a great time. And it's about positive relationships. And it still is in a certain way, but it has to happen with all this craziness around it. That it has to be a really cool event. And At some point, people are not thinking they can get whatever they want, and they need more and more of those dopamine rushes. So if we do something great, or if we drink alcohol, if we get a positive feedback, a certain neurotransmitter is released in our brain, and that's dopamine. And that gives us a good feeling. That's why we are thriving in a certain way. And I think that if we work in that way, And there are no limits to things we want more and more. But we see that we are not really being fulfilled on the long run, because it's just always this short Oh, nice. We got another dopamine rush and now it's the next one. And now it's the next one. It's an addiction in a certain way, but there is not really something meaningful necessarily to it. And this is what we experienced right now in Russia. Russia has all of a sudden a goal. A higher goal in life. And this is to win against the West. It's a new topic, not a new topic, it's a related topic, but that's a very interesting theme. And so what studies show right now is that the depression rate in Russia went way down. They did a study on that and the Kreml published that study, as far as I'm informed. And it is crazy to see that all of a sudden the people know Yeah, this like life I've experienced that I could go to Starbucks and have a coffee or I could go to go out or Egypt to have a nice vacation. Those things were all in a certain way meaningless. But all of sudden, there's something really meaningful. And they are thriving towards the goal. And their depression goes down, because they're working towards something. I do have to say. That there is also another factor, which is part of this development or process, and that is that Russians are also having the An enemy now. So always when a population or group has an enemy, then they are having a higher sense of belonging. And this is also what well being is about well being is about having an aim, but also feeling like you're part of something like the sense of belonging. So this is what we see to that those two factors are an important role, but just the crazy fact that yeah. In Russia, the depression goes down because they have a higher aim in life is something which shows me that something is definitely wrong with our system because they already should have had that feeling of a sense of belonging and to have an aim before and not just because of war starts. Yeah.

I think you hit the nail on the head. There are so many people who are floating around out there and they don't know What tribe they belong to, and when you don't know what tribe you belong to, it's a very lonely and scary place, and it's a very anxiety inducing place. I talk to my kids a lot from a point of view of them being biracial, I grew up in a developing country, Scott obviously grew up here, and what we were taught as kids growing up were so different. Where I grew up, Nationalism was drilled into the children, pride over your nation was absolutely drilled like being Chinese was a great sense of pride. We were proud of our hair color. We were part proud of our eye color. We were proud of our skin color. There was a huge emphasis on feeling proud to be Chinese. And so the culture is preserved in that way. We learn stories, folk tales and everybody believed in the same thing, Scott grew up here and to a much lesser degree because it was decades ago patriotism was taught. But now it is the opposite. Kids are being taught to hate their past, which is such a detrimental thing. I think like what you were saying to look at their people and then think, Oh, they did terrible things. I need to amend for their sins You. Literally take away their ability to feel proud of their tribe and is so detrimental. What do you think about that from the point of view of a psychologist and also from the point of view of an immigrant?

So I think that you can approach the feeling of belonging to a community in two different ways. I see that development right now happening in Germany, where we have one party trying to enforce this feeling of belonging. And then it happens with singing the hymn showing flags of Germany, and stuff like this. And this is super superficial, it's nothing meaningful. And telling a child from childhood onwards yeah, pride of the nation, and kind of conditioning children towards this feeling to be part of this community. I think it's just going the wrong direction. Like we see that with the Amish people here, they're being taught in a certain way, how to live their life. And they were educated in a certain way. But as far as I'm informed, when they're around 18 to 20, they leave for a year, their community, to consider. If They still want to be part of their community, or if they want to be maybe part of another community. And I think it is so important to, to not force people in this direction, because the most important thing to improve well being and to reduce depression is to help people to decide for themselves. So that they feel that their actions and their decisions matter. Self efficacy is the key word right there. And What I see is we have more and more regulations, we are more and more forced in a certain way, now they want our children to sing the hymn, that the children feel more like they are part of a community, and that doesn't work. Because that's just maybe we feel in a certain moment Oh, that's good. We're part of that. But that's not for the long run. That's just for a short period of time and what shows us the most that people are not really feeling like they're part of a community is that they don't want to pay their taxes. If you are part of a community, you want to provide for the community and you. Actually, we should have the intention to pay taxes, but people get married right before the new year to pay less taxes or they have consultant who help them. So something in a system where we're forced to do something, or to feel like we're part of it. It's just not going to work. That's the one aspect I can say about that. What I think is important is. That people have a responsibility, though. People cannot ask for someone to act in their Opinion or in their belief if they're not participating, they cannot be like, Hey, government, do whatever I want you to do. And then things like, this is how I want it and you just do it for me. And this is what we see right now though on worldwide, everyone is like, I want a better life, and the government should do that. But what I think is best is if everyone has to participate again, like You have to go every month to a community meeting, you have to participate at least one member of the family to give people the feeling that they have responsibility and to give people the feeling that they belong to the community. This is what I can say about that topic and the sense of belonging is a very crucial one for well being. And. I do not see it right now. I see it in the Bitcoin community a lot though. Everyone wants to provide something and everyone feels like he's part of that community. Now, Tali, I need you to clarify a little bit more the question regarding the history aspect that they want the children to forget about the history and neglect that. Can you explain that for me one more time?

Yeah, I just, I feel sad when I talk to my kids about much their peers are told. to be almost ashamed of their And I feel that if you are ashamed of your history or what your people did, then how do you figure out where you belong? Because at the same time, family units are breaking down. And like what you said, The most important part for a human being to feel is that they belong somewhere like they have their community like you're saying, and they're working toward a common goal, like what you're saying in Russia, in the United States, I feel sad for children who are told that they can't be proud of the community they're a part of, which is America, I'm not saying they should or should not be taught a certain way I think the hurt comes from robbing them of the community that they're with because they're told to fight against it. You know what I'm saying? We can talk about gender, we can talk about race. It doesn't really matter, but they're being robbed of their community in the way that they are being taught. today. My kids, they know their community because they grew up in the homeschooling community, like you're saying, like the Bitcoiner community is very tight. People feel a great sense of belonging. They're contributing and they know who they are. Same thing for the homeschooler community. It's tight. They know what they're trying to accomplish. So they know where they belong. But a lot of kids don't get that at all, whether it's a home or at school. And I just think that's really sad.

Yeah, definitely. History has shown us that people can be very brutal. I'm from Germany. I know very well what happened during Hitler, the Hitler time. Because we were talking about this every year in school, every year in a different subject I've heard about. What Hitler did and how things went and there is a generational problem right there because on the one hand, those are our ancestors, who participated in that. And now we can think a little bit about this of humans. We humans, we have created something so great. We drive cars, we fly from one continent to the other within a couple of hours. And we were able to to improve certain things in this world in a certain way. And we are in a certain way very smart when it comes to planning and creating and working together. But we are very irrational. And What happened during Hitler, for example, was mass formation, group thinking, and a lot of other cognitive biases impacted the whole population, affected them, and they did what they did. And studies show us that it could happen again, and it could happen also on other continents and not just in Germany. And what I Now say that those people are all who did that are crazy and horrible in a certain way, they did a big mistake and they should have stood up, but they are also irrational and there are psychopaths out there that from what I am aware of, it's like a certain percentage. It's not 60%, it's, I think closer to lower than 10, I think. And to be like, I have a grandmother who. Was alive during the Hitler time, but she's still my grandmother, and I think it is important to, to learn from this, those things that they happen to reflect on this, rather than to judge and to be like they did this it can happen to everyone. And I think it is important that, we are not saying the history is bad, it is. For sure it is. Please don't understand me wrong. It was very bad what happened there, and I don't want in any way find an excuse. Exemption for that, or say that's okay, it was definitely not. But I'm trying just to reply to your question that I think it, it doesn't make sense to, to be like, hey, they were bad, your history was very bad and that takes apart and like, families, I think it is important that we also, in a certain way forgive our, especially our families and to try to understand each other, but also to try to especially reflect on ourselves. Are we doing mistakes right now? Are we conditioned in a certain way? And maybe we want to think differently especially the inflation is a thing where we are so conditioned to this new system that inflation is good for us or is okay to have. But we are not questioning it because we're so conditioned. As an example I have lived in different countries. I've lived for half a year in India, for a year in New Zealand, for two months in Turkey, and For the most part of my life in Germany and now I'm here in America since one and a half years and you understand culture and how culture has developed in a way more deeper level. And a very funny aspect of what Americans are doing and Germans would never do is washing your child in the sink when it's very small. I don't know if you have heard about this, but this is what Americans do. And I mean it's fair enough. You can wash your child in the sink if you want to. I am washing chickens before I prepare them in the sink. I would never wash my child in the sink. I have told to my sister and my sister-in-law in Germany that is a crazy thought to think we should, we could wash our children in the sink. And you see right there, we are differently conditioned in that way, that this is okay in one culture and it's not okay in the other culture. And. The same goes with inflation. We're conditioned to it, but we're not questioning it if it is right to do that, to have an inflationary system. So I can just encourage everyone to think about them and how they perceive the world and why they perceive the world the way they do. Because we're conditioned. I'm sorry, that's not any news, but it is not something people like to hear because we all are convinced we have a free world. Which we do in a certain way. It's just, we are also like, we depend on our culture and it's also important to have a culture. It's very important. It's very important to have rituals and traditions. It's important for us. There's a reason why we have Monday to Sunday, like to Sunday is a week. And Sunday is the day where we're not doing anything because we need a structure as a human. But, yeah, I think it's still very important to, to question certain things and but not to judge necessarily others, this is at least what I've learned in my education program to become a systemic counselor where you try to understand systems and how they work and how we all perceive the world differently because we all have different experience, but we shouldn't judge someone else. Except if it comes to harmful behavior or something like this, does that make sense?

Oh, yeah, definitely. Definitely. Okay, let's talk about why you think people lack interest in Bitcoin.

So as I already said, we are Part of this community, part of the system we are in, and our nervous system is constantly looking in our environment for certain cues which are showing us if we are safe or not safe. So we go out into the world, for example, we go into town, and if there is a person who screams, Our nervous systems immediately and also in a subconscious way, detecting there's something going on and you might have experienced that something changes in the body all of sudden, we're a bit like we're tensing up like we're a little nervous. So there's an nervous system kicking in right away, and we can't do anything about it. That is very inherent in us. And it is the autonomic nervous system which plays a very important role in that moment. And the autonomic nervous system means that we cannot impact it. It will regulate our heartbeat and we can't do anything about it. It works on its own. And so the autonomic nervous system is constantly detecting if we are safe or not. and. We have created a system where we have a retirement plan, we have bank accounts, and the bank is taking care of our money, have hospitals, we have a great medical system, and we have a great food system, we have all the time the option to go into the supermarket and to buy food. And the thing is, our autonomic nervous system is detecting now, I am safe, I have all those systems set in place. And they will help me if I'm in a dangerous situation like I, I will be okay because I can go into the hospital. I can do this or that. And then we've been coming around and we're saying, yeah I don't know if I would trust in that bank system. The inflation, this is just, it's just not going to work really well on the long run. The system will eventually crash. And what is happening in someone like. When it comes to money, it impacts everything. It impacts the food system, the medical system and everything. And we are triggering the autonomic nervous system because the autonomic nervous system is out of a sudden detecting danger. And the interesting part is that we think that the autonomic nervous system is just. regulating our heartbeat or our gut activity, but it also impacts how we behave. So for example, if someone is super nervous, their voice will change, their behavior will change, their gesture and mimic will change, and the person will also perceive their environment differently. So if I have a patient who has a super stressful time and I already feel that in the person because he's super nervous. His voice is different than usually. He will likely perceive my gesture and mimic different. And he, like we see that in people with depression that they judge neutral behavior more as something negative. So they think a person didn't like them, even though their behavior was neutral. And so someone who, whose autonomic nervous system we are triggering might even perceive us differently than we are actually are. And so I think this is something so inherent in us and so conditioned that, yeah we have to be Very careful. And that is why I think it is so important to look at the bigger picture. And this is my philosophy. If we are questioning the current system, and we show the people that their Safety cues in their environment might be danger cues We have to present them a whole new system rather than just to say Bitcoin is good. And this is why I love the work of Katie the Russian, who's always doing those underground Citadel events right before the Bitcoin conferences. And she's showing in those, doing those events that we have to improve our medical system and we can like we have now crowd health as a as a health insurance or like it's not a health insurance, but it's Healthcare supporter, I don't know how to call them but they help people to pay off their bills and to be like a community. And so I think that with crowd health and. And Texas Slim, who's improving the the food system by connecting farmers with each other and other people who try to provide for this community that we actually create a whole new system or with homeschooling, like homeschooling is a big part too. And I really appreciate that. For example, you and your husband are so focused on that because that improves our school system again. And so we take away those safety cues, but we present new ones. And I think this is how it is important to approach people. And I'm not here as a psychologist to, to tell Bitcoiner on how to manipulate people. Not at all. I'm just trying to give an idea of why we are sometimes running against the wall and are not getting closer to the people. Though we know that it might be interesting to just think about this topic of Bitcoin and maybe just learn about it. And that's all I am asking people to do, to question themselves and how far Yeah, Bitcoin might help us.

I really resonated with what you said about how, if you are depressed or if you're anxious, you will view someone's neutral reaction as something negative. That is so true. And yet, like what you're saying before too, that it is such a part of ourselves. We are not even aware that we're doing it. We're not even aware that our perception has changed because it's just happening in in the background. away from our conscious awareness. That's really cool. That what a great way to frame it. Let's talk about That second point that you told me you can cover, which is why Bitcoin can establish a better system. I know we already touched upon different things, but would you like to expand on that?

a lot of bitcoiners are questioning the system in a lot of ways. So on the one hand, The school system is lacking a lot of important aspects, and so homeschooling is becoming a bigger part of the community. Then the Beef Initiative and other Bitcoiners, like here in Michigan, too, are focused on whole foods, on good foods, on local foods. And you we see that in the community a lot. people are considering what can I eat? And also Seyfeddin Amus, he is talking about this a lot in his book, The Fiat Standard how our food consumption or what we eat has changed and how this impacts our health. And regarding this point, I can just say it's very true. We see from my point of view, I don't know any study on it. So that's just my perception. I see that more and more people get the diagnosed cancer. And I know there are a lot of studies out there showing that cancer is Occurring when people have not enough different bacteria, good bacterias in their gut. So we have in our gut those little microbiomes, the bacterias, and we have good and bad ones. And the good ones are very important for us. They help us to produce. For example, neurotransmitters for our brain, for example, serotonin or dopamine, that we actually feel good. That's the reason why sometimes people have depression right after they took antibiotics, because they kill off the good bacteria, they can't produce serotonin anymore, and they get depressed. And those bacteria are very important for us to not have cancer. And with the food we are consuming right now we are not really supporting the growth and the, or we are not really maintaining our good microbiomes. And I think this is also something where the Fiat system, the system we're living in right now is failing, that they are prescribing too many antibiotics, and that we have foods out there who do not provide those good microbiomes anymore, like whole milk, like good fresh milk has so many microbiomes in it. It's very important and also fresh air, but also this is changing because we are most of the time inside and we are not working outside anymore. So we are actually breathing in good bacterias. It sounds funny. I know, but it is the truth. And then it exchanges is in our body with our gut. And so I think that a lot of bitcoiners are questioning that and are not going with the flow. Dr. Martin Seligman, he is the president of the American Association for Psychology, the APA, and he has a very good reputation. He's high up. He was voted in this Position of being a president of the A. P. A. The highest quote ever. So and he has formulated a lot of incredibly interesting theories on psychology. And he's saying it doesn't really matter what studies show, it matters what people want to believe. And this is a big problem, and I think Bitcoiners are escaping this and are like, what are actually the studies showing us, and how should we live our life? So that's regarding the medical aspect, that we are questioning the system, and we provide a new system where we actually look at the studies, and we wanna Look how things go on the long run rather than just for now, like if people have an infection, of course, an antibiotic will help quickly. But what is happening with the health of that person on the long run? And I think this is a big one. We have to think long term and not short term. But humans tend to always go for the short term decision, releases dopamine and it is very hard to inhibit it. The desire to go for it right now, rather than to wait and to decide for something in the long run. Yeah, I think we create a new system in a certain way automatically. And there are a lot of overlapping. Interests in Bitcoiners like good food and alternative medicine growing things in a biodynamic way. Connecting farmers with each other and all those kind of things. And also, of course, to have a healthy money and to think about what changes in our system if we use Bitcoin as a healthy and hard money. We are living towards something and we save towards something rather than just to spend and to enjoy life right now, but do not think about the future.

I feel like you've summarized the best parts of Bitcoin, but I'll just go ahead and ask the last question anyway, what would you say to women who are still sitting on the fence about Bitcoin?

I can, I encourage people just to question things. As a psychologist I like to ask questions to to help people. To go into into certain topics and to develop and to experience their own path. So I can just encourage people to question, are we that rational, or are we maybe irrational? And if we are making mistakes, and if we are maybe affected by group thinking, Why is that the case? And what are the consequences of us doing that? What are the consequences, for example, of accepting always the flu shot if it's recommended? Do we know the consequences? Is it very necessary to get the flu shot right away? And all those kind of things questioning things. And I think that, to answer how I would reply to that question. I think we are irrational in a lot of ways, and I think that, for example, to decide how much money the government should print is a very rough question, and it is always that decisions always affected by a lot of emotional content. So if, for example, our minister is going to Ukraine and seeing all the suffering there, which is very horrible and then has to decide how much money do we print or how much money do we give them? This cannot be a rational question because but the problem is That we want to save the world because we're, in general, very altruistic human beings. We want to help everyone. We don't want to see anyone suffer. The problem is just, I cannot give anything if I have to take care of my own people first and to look out for those poor people rather than to print money. The rich one can profit off of that, and the poor ones are suffering more. And we create this disbalance. Which is actually making everything worse, but we have helped someone at the same time, and this is what making what's making it so hard because you sound horrible if you say that we have to consider how much money we spend on donations and of course we should donate, but we also like it's a bigger picture we have to consider a lot of aspects. And so I think that We have to question those things. We have to question if what we have learned so far in life is how it should go or not. And yeah, I can just say that on the long run, it will be a way more fulfilling life if we are living towards a Bitcoin standard. So we see in studies that the life satisfaction is not really increasing. I don't exactly know the numbers, but if people, for example, earn 80, 000 a year, approximately, it doesn't matter how much more money they earn, it won't change their well being. This is what study shows it. So well being doesn't really correlate from Above the 80, 000 with the income anymore. Underneath that it does. So people have to have a certain amount of money to be able to stay alive and to have the option to live or work towards something. And then. Yeah, that is important to have in that moment, the the monetary support and to be able to grow to establish well being. But everything above that doesn't really make a difference. And I think it is important to consider this. And to know we might be more happy with less in a certain way. And I think this is what is so great about Bitcoin. We can afford something, we can predict our future, because the Bitcoin we have, this is what we will have always. The part of the big portion. And we can develop something and live towards something. And so I think it will help us just to grow to know, yeah, what we can expect.

Yeah, I think Bitcoin allows us to live and plan past this moment. If you're living the FIAS standard, you almost Can only live in this moment because looking forward, there's inflation you don't know how much right but Bitcoin allows you to live past this moment and plan for the future and then you're Then given the liberty to stand back and look at Larger picture overall than just the tunnel vision of this moment and your survival in this moment So it sounds like that's what you're saying is Question everything because you got to look longer term. You got a look Bigger picture So would you agree with that?

Yeah, of course. Yeah, we have to look at the bigger picture and long term. We have to think in the long run. It's just also our current system, which is not supporting the idea of. Of Bitcoin, I think it is important to question that system. That's all I ask people to do for now. Ask, is inflation good? Or is it maybe not good? And what are the advantages and disadvantages of that? And I think at the moment, why people disagree so much with Bitcoiners is because everyone is saying the system we're in right now is good and it comes down to the behavior people to actually be able to judge if this current system is good or not. If I understand the behavior of the human on a very deep level, then I can actually decide If the system we're in right now is good or not, if I understand that people are in a certain way, willing to look out for their future and if they can't predict the future because the money isn't stable enough, then they will want to create more and want to buy more and more houses. And then we create that gap between rich and poor and that's not giving us in any way, still stability, but because then that's the big question- is that real estate market stable or not? So all those kinds of different things, which will be the big solution, like investing in real estate, for example, could also crash, so people will get more and more greedy. In compared to that, I hope because I think the humans are very altruistic and giving and helping people is the best antidepressants out there on the market right now. The altruistic part of us cannot be triggered if we do not feel safe. So if I do not have a system I live in where I can predict something, then I'm not feeling safe and then I can't be altruistic. And this is what is destroying us right now in a certain way.

Thank you so much. That was so helpful. I love the way you frame that. And I hope our listeners will begin to question what they perceive to be reality a little bit more. So thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it.

Yeah, it was really great talking to you. Thank you so much for having me on.

Thank you for listening to this episode. Did you enjoy it? Wasn't our guest absolutely fabulous. I just love every woman's story on this show. Everybody has a unique perspective and yet, we all come to the same place, which is Bitcoin is an important part of our lives. If this story has inspired you and you would like to know more, go to www.orangehatter.com. Get involved. Join and our reading group, send me an email and introduce yourself. I will be so happy to hear from you. The best way you can support this show is to spread the word Tell every woman, you know, to listen in. You never know how they will be impacted by these stories. I appreciate you so much. See you next time. Bye.