0:00:05.4 VB: Welcome to the Inclusive Education Project. I'm Vicky Brett.

0:00:10.0 AS: I'm Amanda Selogie. We're two civil rights lawyers on a mission to change the conversation about education, civil rights, and modern activism.

0:00:20.7 VB: Each week we're gonna explore new topics which are going to educate and empower others.

0:00:26.9 AS: And give them a platform to enact change in education and level the playing field.

[music]

0:00:33.7 AS: Welcome back friends.

0:00:35.7 VB: Hello listeners. We are really excited to have Dr. Tara Williams on so that we can discuss the ever elusive it feels like executive functioning and executive functioning skills. Dr. Williams, thank you so much for joining us.

0:00:52.4 TW: Thank you for having me.

0:00:53.5 AS: So one thing that is used as a buzzword and something that's on a lot of IEPs or on a lot of parents minds, especially with our older kiddos is executive functioning. But a lot of people I think don't have a good way of defining it or realize that it means a couple different things depending on which child we're talking about and like working on deficits versus strengths. So could you give us like an overview onto what does the term executive functioning skills mean and what should we be thinking about when we talk about it?

0:01:24.8 TW: So for me, executive functioning skills means basically our brain's way of taking our information and using it to plan and organize. So basically our way that the brain makes a list for us. So it tells us what we're gonna do in the order of importance. And so yeah, that's sort of the way that our brain sifts through that information and tells us what we need to do and in what order we need to do it.

0:01:49.6 AS: Can you talk a little bit about how this might look a little bit different in when when we're talking about a younger child to say elementary school versus like middle school and high school 'cause we sometimes we'll get teams that will say like, oh, we don't have to worry about the elementary school. Like this is more of a high school, middle school, but in reality, we want to be building skills when the child is younger. So they don't have a problem later in education.

0:02:14.6 TW: I mean, I would think in elementary school, I think it shows up more as like this, the student who or the child who leaves their shoes at school or leaves their jacket at school. When you pass by those playgrounds and you're like, why are there three jackets over there? Didn't that student take their jacket home? And/or they constantly forget their homework, or they don't know the parent opens their book bag, right? And everything's stuffed in there and there's no order to it. So I think that you see that more with young children and just the way that they don't get up. Like I think a lot of us have routines, right? Whereas young children that sort of have executive functioning issues, they don't get up and do anything in a certain order. It's whatever they're sort of hyper focused on the moment, like, I'm in the shower for 30 minutes. Oh, no, now I gotta go. Right. So a sense of urgency is sort of not there, I think, when they're younger. And honestly, this goes into middle school and high school. Like you see students even in college that I work with, that still show up with their backpack in shambles and papers everywhere. And no charger and no [0:03:23.0] ____ Just be in that realm. So I think that, yeah, when they're younger, it's maybe we get better at hiding it as we get older, but.

0:03:32.3 VB: I was just gonna say that there's so many things that as we get older, and maybe it's maybe it starts in college, maybe a little bit in high school, but, you know, having your Google calendar reminder go off. Or, having timers for things. And it's kind of just acceptable, right? You know, nobody would tell me, no, you can't bring your phone to take a picture of what's on the board at a conference or something, right. But we, for whatever reason, when it's kiddos, and we're trying to get that to work. It's like, no, no, no, they have a binder that they're supposed to write in. Well, guess what? Not everybody wants the frickin binder or the whatever, the scheduler, like, it just doesn't work for some kids, right. And that is one of the biggest frustrations that we have. When we go to IEP meetings is, is people not really necessarily, we always try to bring it back to the child that's in front of us and their unique needs.

0:04:28.2 VB: And we really try it, you know, for instance, I was just in an IEP meeting and a child is in fifth grade. And we had indicated that you know, he needs a copy of the teacher's notes. And the immediate response was, well, he needs to learn how to take notes. Okay, I didn't say he doesn't need to learn how to take notes. I said he needed the teacher's notes to either supplement to front load to maybe you know, if you want the teacher to have more work, hey, give us a sheet that has missing keywords in it. And so then when he hears it, he can like write it down and fill in the blank. If you wanna do more work, if not, you can give us the notes. It's not going to, he's not gone just all of a sudden be like, Oh, thank God. I got the teacher, Like that's such an adult mentality, right? Like, Oh, I have the teacher. I'm just not gonna... And it's like, he's in the fifth grade. We need to support him because he is not able to focus long enough to get the information onto the piece of paper.

0:05:21.3 TW: No. And they miss verbal cues a lot.

0:05:26.8 VB: Yes.

0:05:26.9 TW: That's what's being said, right? Like even my college students, there's a reason that in their 504 that they get no ticket or they [0:05:34.1] ____ to take notes because they like, one of the big things is if the teacher is like, Oh, the assignment got changed. That's it. There's a verbal assignment got changed. Then I'm like, why did you miss that? And they're like, I didn't know it got changed. So if it's not like written somewhere like on their learning management system, in their email.

0:05:50.6 VB: Right, right, follow-up.

0:05:55.7 TW: Yes. Then that's a huge problem so a lot of teachers do give those notes for that reason because a lot of students they're either hyper focusing or when you're processing it's really hard for them to be able to look at the board and be able to take notes at the same time. Like they're trying to do both and everything gets lost so that seems like a very reasonable request because a lot of us... Can be, right? If I hear something in a meeting if I don't write it down it's gone, like that's just... So filled with information these days.

0:06:25.0 AS: Yeah. Well I mean and we all as adults there's so many tools out there that we use I mean I use my reminders on my phone for everything, work, personal whatever. A lot of adults have kind of figured out like what works best for them. Is it the sticking post on their phone, is it having literally alarms go off, is it writing on their hands, right? We've kind of figured out some things that work for us but when it comes to children especially young children, what I find is one of the hardest things to get across the teams is there needs to be a balance of providing accommodations for the child to ensure that they have access to their instruction and that's what the accommodations are for and also simultaneously teaching them how to have problem-solving skills to figure out and be able to recognize when they need the accommodation to advocate to use the accommodation and why it's important but it's not automatic, right. These kids like even if we're providing them a tool these notes year after year, it's not gonna become automatic that they understand that they need them or why they need them, right?

0:07:37.1 AS: So I think and that's that's the challenge that we get is like we don't just want you to provide the accommodation and then expect one day they're gonna start sixth grade and okay we want independent skills so johnny's gonna have to start asking for this. It's like but you You never spent any time teaching him about this, right? So that second component of executive functioning skill development is to actually teach the child the skills. We may never get there where they can do everything on their own without these tools, because or knows I don't, you know, none of us do, we all use these tools, we rely on them. But we recognize that we need them. And that's kind of the difference, right? A lot of these kids don't recognize that they need them or know why they need them.

0:08:24.4 TW: Well, and I feel like too, we want the also we want kids now to turn into adults that can advocate for themselves. And when you're constantly getting your hands slapped every time you ask for something, I feel like it's...

0:08:35.2 AS: Exactly right.

0:08:36.7 TW: It becomes a cycle of even like we said, when I work with older students, they still don't wanna ask because they're like, no, I'm being a burden or they're ashamed [0:08:45.0] ____.

0:08:45.1 AS: You shouldn't need this. Or my other students don't need this and I think that's sometimes we get general education teachers in high school, who are very take a very hard line approach of like, I treat all my kids the same, everyone has the same treatment and they don't understand, because this child appears on its face that they're, typical student and the concept the perception they have in their mind is this child just chooses not to rather than know they can't, they literally have a learning challenge that is getting in the way, it's not within their control.

0:09:25.1 TW: Yeah, and they get so good at masking, right?

0:09:29.2 AS: Right, right.

0:09:30.5 TW: Good at masking and especially if they've learned at a young age, hey, like, if I just fit in with everybody else, then, it's not a problem. Like, nobody has to know. I mean, that's why we find out about, you know, students who are dyslexic at 20 years old, or students with autism and they're, 25 years old. So yeah, I feel like masking is such a real thing that, you don't have to treat anybody different, you can provide those accommodations without treating anybody different, right? It's part of our job as educators, not everybody learns the same. And I feel like we were taught at such a young age that everybody learns the same and things were so different, right? When some visual, some people need a different hard line. And I don't know about you guys, but I hated that when I was growing up. Like [0:10:12.6] ____, understand something. I was like, well, I don't understand it. Like, why can't you show me something in a different way?

0:10:18.4 VB: In a different way. Yeah. And it's funny because my first year of law school, before we started, they offered like a student support, like center offered like online. How do you learn quiz, right? And I was like, so fascinated by the results. I was like, a little bit of everything. Whereas like, some of my colleagues and friends were like strictly visual, right or tactile or, you know, whatever. And it, I really hadn't even thought about it, right? Like, I just, I wrote notes and writing was helpful to me and I hadn't really thought about it until that quiz and that really helped me, study through law school and then eventually for the bar. And I think that a lot of times, when we were talking about executive functioning skills, we had stolen this phrase from somebody else that had said, most of the time executive functioning skills are learned in the sandbox, right?

0:11:14.1 VB: But, I mean, it really, they do start to typically develop pretty early on, right? Maybe around that, like three, four, five age, but they can continue to develop throughout someone's entire life, right? It's not like this fine, you know, it's not like either have it or you don't. It is something that can be worked on. Is that what you see with your, some of your adult students or people that come to you when I don't even know if they know that they're missing, those skills because they're either masking or whatnot?

0:11:45.7 TW: I mean, I think. Like I work with a lot of high schoolers, but also I work with a lot of college students. And that difference between high school to college is most of that is now over. You are advocating for yourself. You are the ones that, and it's, there's a lot of great accessibility centers on campus that do a great job with helping the students. But for example, I have a student right now who has to check his learning management system, his email, an outside Google Doc, and an outside homework system. That's for one class.

0:12:19.3 VB: For one class?

0:12:19.4 AS: Oh my gosh.

0:12:19.6 TW: For one class. So if you're struggling in that area and you've always had help in high school, middle school, elementary school, and then you get to college and it's like, oh, you're an adult now. So you don't, you know, you have all these together and you have these great accommodations, but yeah, I mean, that's why I work with students because they have now, and some of them are like have been medicated and they're like, oh, I don't need that in anymore. I don't need help anymore. I don't need help anymore. And those skills are now tenfold because you don't get that spot from high school teachers being like, hey, you can turn stuff in late, right? There's not that excuse anymore. And the advocating is really hard because professors are scarier than say, I'm a professor myself than say someone that's in K-12. So they get all those things taken care of and then they get to college and I tell them like all the wheels fall off the bus because they are not prepared for that transition a lot of the time.

0:13:17.7 VB: Yeah, and I think that really stems from a heavy reliance on we're gonna provide it and then we might just automatically at a certain age, okay, now we need to work on independent skills. So we're just gonna drop it. And I've seen, I've had kiddos who like senior, junior year, the school is like, okay, well, they need to start responsible for like advocating. So we're gonna shift it from, it's automatic when the teacher's providing it to now, we're only gonna provide it if the teacher. If the student asks for it. And what happens then is exactly what you're saying where then the students are, I just, I don't need it. I'm fine. But they don't recognize that like that connection that it really does have an impact because their grades decline. And then they just were like, well, I don't care. I don't care. And then the way it's perceived and in many of my cases, the way it's perceived as defiance. This student is defiant and they just don't care. And how does a general education teacher look at that? Oh, that student didn't need it in the first place. They're just a defiant kid and the parents are just asking for a lot. And it's like, no, we never took the time to try to help the child understand what they need and why they need it. And also the advocacy skills. Like there's the two components to it that are so often missed.

0:14:36.0 TW: Well, and the shame, the shame of they do care, right? They care so much. When I have a student who misses something, say we go on their learning management system and they miss something, I'm like, okay, well, let's email your professor. No, no, this is my fault. Like, so it does come across like they don't care. And I'm like, yeah, but I miss a deadline at work and it's okay. Like, let's just to say, hey, can I turn it in for feedback even if I'm not gonna get any credit? Like, is there, I mean, I'm like, if you never ask, you never know. And since I know that all of us in the adult real world or whatever we wanna call the workforce, we all make mistakes. So instead of being punished for an entire semester for missing one assignment, right? That I think that people do see it as defiance, but there's so much shame behind it because they wanna be just like their peers. That's why they say, I don't need the help because they don't wanna go to a special classroom to take their exam. They don't wanna ask for these things even though they need it. And then, so you kind of have to tell them, it's okay, we all need help. We've all messed up. We can pick up from it. It's how you come back from your mistakes.

0:15:45.4 VB: Oh, absolutely. And that's probably one of our biggest challenges in high school when we're, the child's provided, it's mostly like a study skills classroom. And we're like, okay, but how are we gonna teach them the skills? And it's like this enigma and this big question mark that no one ever can answer. It's like, oh no, well, will we do these things? We use checklist or they have five minutes with me to go over their missing assignments. And I'm like, cool, but how are we teaching... And it's just so fascinating to me when we speak to people like yourself that it can be taught, but I don't know why. And I think it's just a lack of training, right? And the better resource teachers or specialized academic instructors that are at IEP meetings that give us like practical solutions are those that either have executive functioning deficits themselves or have a kiddo or have had multiple students, and so then they got their own training. What are some of the things that administrators should know about offering training for? How did you learn about executive functioning deficits? I know you're a doctor. But what are some key tips for some of our listeners that are like, how do we teach it?

0:17:01.2 TW: I mean, I think it's listening [0:17:04.5] ____. Listening is always the most important thing in any career, right? But I also think it's what motivates that student. Where is the motivation? Is the motivation in wanting to get an A? Is the motivation in wanting to pass? Is motivation in getting their work done so they can play video games at night? Is their motivation a career? Like, what literally is each student's motivation? And then how do we get there? So I think for me, that's how I work with each of my students. It's also getting a personal relationship with them. Like when they're having a bad day, knowing, just like all of us, like, where can we push and where can we not push? Or if they're just like, I don't wanna do this today, I don't wanna do this today, you know, Tara, I don't wanna do this.

0:17:50.6 TW: I'm Like, okay, well, let's just start. So some of them, I'll just be like, let's just start writing, I'll type for you. You tell me your thoughts. Like, let's just get some thoughts down. And from [0:17:58.0] ____ they start talking, because it's also all about building confidence. The training is about building their confidence so that they feel good enough to be able to do it themselves and to want to do it. So they don't feel like, oh, I'm not smart, I can't do this, right? It's finding what motivates them and what builds their confidence enough to want to do something.

0:18:20.4 AS: Yeah, absolutely.

0:18:22.4 VB: I love that because I feel like when we're looking at IEPs, that's not even on the list, right? It's just like, they have all these things to say, and it's like, well, have you talked to the child? Do they just wanna pass this class, right? They're just trying to get through bio or whatever, but being able to get curious kind of goes back, I would say, to the fundamentals of what it is to be a teacher, right? Is getting to know your student and figuring out how to support them. They have, hopefully by that point, some of the tools and you just kind of giving that series of like, yeah, what is the motivation? And we have to build up their confidence. I feel like that is something that any teacher right now could implement right away. It's not this big, like, yeah.

0:19:13.0 TW: One thing about, I'm sure all of us have had that one teacher that we despised.

0:19:21.2 VB: Absolutely absolutely.

0:19:24.1 TW: And what do you remember about that person? They made you feel awful about yourself. They embarrassed you, they made you feel stupid. They did something that took you years to recover from. And like, and I think that stems from, like I said, not getting to know the students and just thinking that they're all the same. They're all numbers.

0:19:40.4 AS: Yes, making a lot of assumptions.

0:19:45.4 TW: Yes, absolutely. When everybody's different, and we all learn differently. And I, you know, still, that's why even students now in this day and age, like they some of them love Post-its, they wanna use Post-its over their phone, because that's, a large part of their life. So, so yeah, I mean, it's I think it's getting to know the students and seeing like what... Every brain is different. And so how can we [0:20:07.3] ____ that brain to the best of their ability.

0:20:12.5 AS: Amen. You've preached into the choir. We love it.

0:20:13.9 VB: Well, what's fascinating about the Post-its is if I write something down, we even have like a calendar on our refrigerator, right, which is a dry erase board. But I find if I sit and write out, when the doctor's appointment is or whatever that is going to stick in my brain longer than if I put it in my Google calendar, right, which I'm looking at my Google calendar right now, it's very important, it saves my life every day. But when I can, I just try to even if it's just on a scrap piece of paper, I just try to write it because for my brain, that physical, tactile kind of I'm writing this out for some reason, it just that's now I know for a lot of people that resonates, but then for some people, it doesn't. And I think that being able to really listen and you're gonna know things about the student and then you just try to you maybe they are super into technology, maybe there's some people out there that just like the color coding of it just sticks in their brain better, right? But you don't know unless you ask and so I think that that's a really great way for teachers to start the journey that they'll have with the student. If anybody is listening to us and they had more questions for you specifically, how... And the work that you do with your high schoolers and older students, how can they reach you?

0:21:30.1 TW: They can either reach me on my website, which is www.innovativecollegiateconsultants.com and that website has all of our socials, all of our info and easiest way would be to contact me through there.

0:21:45.5 VB: Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for coming on and really getting to the bottom of executive functioning skills because we cannot tell you how many times we hear that, you know, it's like everybody has their own opinion. So that even informs me of how I'm gonna approach IEPs like, you know, taking a step back and saying, how would you define executive functioning, right? Like what are we, you know, and then maybe starting from there and hopefully getting them on the same page as to, how to appropriately support the child in a different way. Let's Google something, I guess, if they don't have anything, but maybe we could just use your help instead. Listeners, we hope you enjoyed this episode and we will speak to you next week.

0:22:22.3 AS: Bye.

0:22:25.1 TW: Bye.

0:22:25.9 VB: Bye.

[music]