Foreign. Hi, I'm Annemarie Zanzel, coach, ordained minister, grandma, mom of four, and a queer woman, married to my lovely, gorgeous wife after I came out. Later in life, this is Coming out and Beyond LGBTQIA Stories, a podcast for everyone exploring identity, queerness, and what it means to live more truthfully, no matter our age or stage. We share stories, stories of coming out, starting over, resiliency, how to navigate relationships, grief, joy, and building lives that actually fit us as human beings. No labels required, just curiosity, courage, and a little faith in this journey. Welcome. Let's dive in.

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Zanzel. Com.

Hello, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of Coming out and Beyond LGBTQIA Stories. It's Emery here, and I'm here with your favorite LGBTQ coach, Barbara Rowlandson. Hi, Barb.

Shucks. Hi, Emery. How you doing today?

Doing okay. So we are going to talk about the upcoming holidays because we both understand what it's like to be coming out and navigating the holidays. It can feel like a lot while you're in the brave middle of coming out. And we're right here with you. So today we're going to offer a simple plan, boundaries that hold tiny rituals of joy and a few, few phrases that protect your peace without abandoning your truth. Take what helps and leave the rest.

Yeah, exactly. And listen, our intention here is to help you establish some steadiness, not to be perfect. We're not aiming for perfection here. So some of the things that we're going to talk about today, we're going to talk about family, we're going to talk about faith, we're going to talk about the change that comes along with coming out, especially if you're doing it over the holidays. And if anything, that we're talking about sort of edges you towards, like, a feeling of overwhelm. I just want to really encourage you that, you know, you can titrate out this, this podcast and give yourself permission to listen in small increments. You can pause, you can breathe, you can step away if you need to and come back to it later and just listen to this in a way that is manageable for you and is kind to your nervous system.

One of the most unexpected things that I never thought about when I was deciding whether to come out or not was how the holiday season was going to affect me.

Yeah, it's that first holiday. Oh.

Oof.

Well, yeah, the first, the second, the third. I mean, it can go on for a lot of years. I am going to say my second holiday season holiday was really, really hard and a couple of reasons. First of all, my kids were angry, so they. So the second holiday season was two years in because the. The year I was coming out, I knew that this was going to be our last holiday. And then the next year we did okay. And then the following year was the hardest. In fact, I have a blog piece called Holidays in four Parts that will attach to this, to this podcast, because I talked about it in the blog piece about my four holiday experiences. So for me, when we talk about holidays, we're talking about the Thanksgiving, Christmas, Hanukkah season, maybe Diwali, if you're Indian. So we are talking about the season that ends at the end of the year. All holidays can be tough. So take a measure from what we're teaching to apply to other holidays that you may have with your families. My second holiday was I knew that things were going to be different. We went over to my family's house, which we always do. It was very funny because for the 25 years before that, I was the one that had the holidays. And like a lot of women, I could have given it up 10 years before it ended.

Right.

I talked to a lot of women about that that get stuck during Christmas. You know, people things like, do things like, oh, you do it so well, and stuff like that. I have a current client that is talking how, like, she hosts Christmas every year and she would be really happy to give it up. So I was okay giving it up. That wasn't the problem. But there was just a lot going on. And. And also too, you know, I had family members, like one of my siblings who, whose daughter went through a difficult divorce said to me, oh, your divorce is not as hard as hers. And I'm like, what?

I didn't know.

Whoa. And it's like, how can you. I so, like, really upset with her. And I'm like, how can you name what I'm going through? My sister is incredibly. She's a lovely person, but she's very, very heteronormative. And she believes that people are not happy until they're partnered and married with. Well, she's liberal enough to say partner, but she is somebody that believes everybody should be partnered. She's just. That's like her belief system. So that was hard, but also what was really hard is that my kids all left at about 11 o' clock and I was alone. And it was really upsetting to me that, you know, I had taken care of people through the holidays for so long, and when I needed some care, there was nobody.

Right.

There just wasn't family. Birth, family. They all had their own things to do, but they don't. You know, I said, hey, would you be. Mind if I come with you? And they were like, no, because it's at somebody else's house or something like that. So I felt really, really alone. And I can almost feel the grief feelings right now, you know, because it was hard. And I was working as a hospice chaplain then, so I took the on call because I was like, well, you know, I might as well work right?

Fill that time.

So I would say it took about four holiday seasons before I felt a sense of normalcy with everything.

Mm.

It took a while. It just.

How about you? Yeah, I would agree with that. It takes. It took me about three to four holiday seasons to start feeling like I had a new groove. And I think what you're saying about feeling alone really resonates here because there. The thing that strikes me about those first couple of. Chris. And I'm speaking about Christmas specifically the first. The thing that strikes me about it was like, it was. I'd never had a holiday so negotiated and it felt so unnatural and so forced to have like, okay, it's 11 on the.it's time for the kids to go. And also I had some of my boundaries transgressed where I lost some time as well, because, you know, the kids were being frankly, put in the middle and pulled into a different direction, not just by my ex, but also, like, his extended family. So. So. So, yeah, it left me feeling a little bit like I was thrown out. And as my kids got older, that began to change because they started to have more agency about how much time they wanted to spend. And also too, like, we. We started to create some new traditions. But those first couple of years. Whew. Really? Yeah, There were periods.

Well.

Well, I guess I'm watching four Christmas movies in a row and drinking this bottle of wine because nothing else I'm gonna do.

I think it's so interesting because as moms, like I was in charge of the holiday season. And it really wasn't until the end of our marriage that my ex even helped. You know, he was, he was in charge of wrapping gifts. I was in charge of everything. And with four kids, it was a lot. It's a. I also remember too, like I was just thinking about my very first Christmas and my ex husband was supposed to have the kids come over at 1 or 1:30 and I remembered they didn't show up. And so I called him and said, hey, the kids are supposed to be over here now. And I became the bad guy because I was enforcing a boundary that we said that we would set the kids over at 1:30. And he was plowing through my boundary, which we both agreed upon. It wasn't that the kids over at 1:30 because in our family, our tradition was to spend Christmas Eve with my birth family and Christmas Day with his birth family. So we had done that for years. And that was the plan. You know, they were supposed to come over at noon and spend the night with me and then they were going to go to their dad's house. And it was a huge change for everybody. But when your spouse, when your soon to be ex spouse doesn't follow the plan, which sounds like you and I had very similar experiences. Experiences like I'm like, we made this plan so we wouldn't have any hiccups, you know.

Right.

And when I like enforced that boundary, I was the bad guy.

Right. Even though you're going against according to what was pre agreed upon, you were the bad guy for. Yeah. Yeah. That doesn't feel fair.

No, it doesn't. It doesn't at all. So you know the holiday script, as you can hear from Barb and I, talking about it, it's loud, there's traditions, timing, expectations. And so when you're coming out, that script can clash with your inner life. So today's about some options that I wish I knew when I was in the process of coming it out myself.

Yeah. So we're going to talk about boundaries here and how to actually hold them. And so for our purposes here, we're going to use lanes to describe boundaries. Okay. So these lanes are time topics. Okay. So Emery, can you address our first lane here with time?

So this is the thing. The other night in Authentically Us, we were talking a little bit about the how about the holidays? And one of the members of our group was talking about going to Thanksgiving and I said to her, you don't have to stay the whole time. And it was like revolutionary to her, right?

Like, she's like, what?

I said, no, you can go and make an appearance and see your, your, your people you love, but you don't have to stay the whole time. And that was like, you know, sometimes it's the simplest thing that becomes revolutionary, right? So you use the boundary. Like, we will stay for about 90 minutes. So you keep to that boundary. If you're having a good time and everything is great, you can stay a little longer. I mean, boundary is about protecting you. So we'll stay for about 90 minutes. Or if the energy dips, we're heading out. And what we're talking about in terms of energy, if the energy in the room shifts to negativity, like talking about your divorce, talking about your coming out process, anything like that, if you feel like the energy dips, you can head out. You do not have to stay in places that make you uncomfortable.

Absolutely. The other thing too is like topics, right? So topics. You get to decide what you talk about and have what to share. This is a big part of coming out, right? It's like we come out on our own, on our own pace, in our own time, and we also don't have all the answers for everyone. So especially when we're coming out later in life, we're just starting to beginning to understand our own journey ourselves, let alone having to explain it to other people. So. Well, for one, I think if extended family or friends have questions, I would politely point them to annmarie zanzel.com to read like, like reams and reams and reams of blog posts and podcasts and all of this, like, like that actually, like, put the later in life experience into context. But if taking it back to, you know, the holiday, whether it's Thanksgiving, Christmas, you're at a friend's house or your family member's house and they want to start broaching a subject that you're not comfortable talking about. Let's have a little script in place for that, right? So, hey, listen, I love you. I'm happy to talk to you about this another time, one on one, when you know it's not the holidays. But today I just want to enjoy everybody's company. I'm here to connect with family. I don't see a lot of make a time to talk about this another time.

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Okay, one piece of advice. Don't come out at the holiday meal. You know, this, this is about a boundary. Okay. Coming out at Christmas. I mean, you know, we've all seen the movies, you know, where people bring somebody the holidays or Christmas, and that's when they decide to come out. Not a good time. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

This isn't a Hallmark movie. This is your life. So maybe coming out in a way that, where you have a little bit more control and intimacy than at a table full of like 12 people and little kids and whatnot. Maybe that's not the best timing. Yeah, and one of the reasons why.

We say, say that is because there's so many people there. There's so many things that might surprise you. People may say things sometimes, you know, in group theory, sometimes a group is a lot harder to talk to than to a single person. And so we really, really advise not to come out on the holidays. Just don't do it. I think it's just too hard for everybody. It's too hard for you. It makes the holiday like almost a performance, you know, like, oh, I've got to tell the people I love this thing. Also too, in a gentler way. It is also giving people space to process. So if we come out to our family at the holiday dinner table, you know, people's first reactions are often not their last. And so it is also, in a, in a small way, taking care of the people you love so that they don't have to receive the news in a public forum. So if you're thinking about coming out at the holiday dinner this year, maybe not.

Yeah, yeah, maybe set you, maybe you could set up a time to talk with people later. Hey, I got something important I want to discuss with you after Christmas, when are you free? But I wouldn't, I wouldn't broach it at the holiday. So for establishing boundaries, I think it's a good idea to get some clarity on your own before you make contact, before you land on Thanksgiving Day or Christmas Day at your family member's front porch, decide ahead of time what are some of your non negotiables? Even if you pick, like just three things, what are your three non negotiables before you even walk in the door. Okay, I know. I'm not gonna, I, I'm not gonna take any questions about my sexuality. I'm not gonna talk about my separation and divorce, and I'm not going to stay past 90 minutes if I know that this is gonna be a tense thing. I'm gonna give myself permission to leave after 90 minutes. Great.

Yes. And if you can feel the energy heading south, it is okay to say, you know what, thank you so much for having me, but I have to leave now. And if someone forgets your boundary, repeat it. Yeah, just say, I'm sorry. I'm not discussing that. You don't have to apologize, by the way. Let me change that. You can just say, not discussing that today. I just don't want to discuss that today. And hopefully people respect your boundaries. Now if you come from a family where there's extremely porous boundaries, it may be really hard to enforce because you're trying a new behavior.

Right, Right.

And nobody's used to it. So that you do have in the back pocket is if you try to enforce boundaries and people just keep stepping over them, then you know that, okay, I've given myself permission to leave. And so you can leave if it becomes too uncomfortable or people are not respecting you.

For sure. Sure you can. Yeah.

So think in micro coming outs and honest steps instead of a big reveal like we were talking about previously. And remember that not now is a valid answer.

Now you might find you're in a circumstance where traditionally you go to different kinds of services or faith based events. And if that's the case, then planning, making a little plan ahead for how you want to show up in that space and also when you want to leave. So some strategies there, you could sit near an exit if you feel like, if it's starting to feel unsafe, you can hightail out of there pretty easily without encountering other people. You could also go with an ally or meet an ally there.

Right.

A wonderful idea bringing somebody who's an ally if it's, you know, sometimes like, I mean, like, I used to love the Sunday service that I used to go to when I lived back in Connecticut. It was, it was just lovely. And it was, you know, you basically, you sang carols and I really love that service. But you know, bringing somebody with you that knows the situation and is just there to support you, it's really a wonderful idea.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And one more last little idea here is that you can plan pre planned sort of rehearsal line that sort of gently allows you to. Hey, I gotta go check the turkey in the oven now.

Bye.

It can be maybe more subtle than that, but. But if you think of your line ahead of time, if you need to make a quick escape, I'm sorry, I've got another obligation. I've got to get running. Great to see you all. See you next time.

Oh, now we're going to talk about the part that's really flummoxing for a lot of people and that's co parenting and kids. So this is for the folks that are maybe in the separation stage. So. And as you know, Barb and I, when we talked about our coming out memories, we talked about parenting. Right. That parenting was the hardest part of it all. So let's talk about the logistics.

Getting on the same page with your spouse who you're separating from, aligning on exchange times. I know we just literally talked about how this can get sidestepped, but we have to do our due diligence here. So getting on the same page about priorities, who's going to have your kids at what time, also it's, it's more about time. It's also about gift expectations. Hey, I'm planning on doing this. What are you planning on doing? We don't want to duplicate. And also extended family events. That for me was a really sticky one because there were a lot of strong expectations on both sides of the family of when they would have access to our kids. Right. So making some decisions as parents ahead of time and coming to an agreement in a way that can mostly satisfy everyone. Not everybody's going to be completely satisfied, but mostly satisfies everyone.

If your soon to be ex spouse doesn't adhere to that, what do you do? Like my, my one o' clock exchange time. Right. Like, I think I handled it the best way I could because it was a boundary he was crossing. But sometimes it sucks to be the bad guy.

Yeah. I think operating firstly giving people just a little bit of grace. Right. It's the holidays. Not everybody's gonna, you know, maybe be dressed and ready to go. If you're spending like half the morning in your PJs, the kids might be slow to get rolling. Allowing for a little bit of grace is a good thing, but also protecting the time that you have as well. I think it's a very valid thing to speak up and say, hey, I'm noticing it's about quarter after the kids were supposed to be here at 1. Can you give me a reasonable expectation when they're going to be here?

And also, too we're going to talk about the triggers. Alcohol, politics, and money with alcohol. Choose a limit in advance. Say, I'm going to have one drink today, or I'm not drinking today. Because we know that when we drink, sometimes behaviors that we would never, ever display when we were sober will come up. And so being really thoughtful about drinking. And I'm going to even say, I would not drink if I knew this was a really tricky and sticky situation, I would not drink. Because oftentimes when you have that one drink, you think to yourself, I'll just have another.

This is it. It's a slippery slope. And you can have all the resolve in the world until that first drink gets slides down your throat, and then it's like, that tasted like more. And the next thing you know, like, for. For me personally, leaving it towards, like, the very end of day during. Yeah, just leaving it to the very end of day, if I'm going to partake at all, is. Is. Is a good way to sort of like, okay, I can unwind with this glass of wine and, like, maybe an hour before bed or whatever, when dinner is over, the Christmas festivities are over, and I can still enjoy that. Yeah, leaving it till the end of day, when all of the, you know, human contact is over and where you can just sit, reflect, maybe write in your journal and have that glass of wine if you want to have it, and spill out your feelings on the pages rather than onto the people.

And also, too, remembering that being queer, being LGBTQ is not a political issue. It has been made into a political issue, unfortunately, in some parts of the world, but it is not. And so if someone wants to make your coming out, or anybody who is LGBTQ a PITA political issue, that is the time when you say, I'm not going to talk about that with you, and let's keep Today people positive. Or I can't debate. I don't debate my humanity. And so that is. I do feel like that is a really strong boundary to set if somebody wants to make. Or they know you're coming out and then they bring it up and you're sitting there and you're hearing all of this. Two options. You can say, as I said, I don't debate my humanity, or, let's keep Today people positive. And again, this is the time where you can say, okay, time to go.

All you can do is control your own actions. Right? You cannot control the actions of others. So establishing that boundary for yourself, and if people choose to continue to transgress the boundary, then you can choose to leave. Or you can choose to stay and take it. But for your own mental health, leaving might be the best option.

Absolutely. And I also know that a lot of the women that we work with are really worried about money during this time. And I, you know, was still doing my old way of the holidays, which was extravagance, and now I don't do that anymore. So if you are really worried about money, you can do something like, hey, I'm doing a handmade Christmas, or it's going to be low key this year. That's really wonderful to do with kids too. Too. And this is an opportunity for you to start new traditions with your children.

Yeah.

If like, money is really tight and you're like, oh my gosh, what am I gonna do with the kids this year? You could do something really special, like maybe go to the latest holiday blockbuster. I mean, yes, it's gonna cost 50 bucks, but if you have a bunch of kids, it might be the best way to, to spend your money. You know, there's ways you can do things. If you live in a part of the world where there's snow, maybe taking them sledding. Skiing is really, really expensive. But you might be somebody who has a ski pass. You know, there's ways to create. One of the things that I think people forget is that when this, all this change happens and then all of a sudden we're, we're longing for something that we really didn't even like much, you know, that's more about change and transition. So taking this opportunity to maybe change the way you do the holidays. So for example, for myself, because this is still evolving. My children are all adults now. And I realized last year, after buying them four or five presents, I'm like, I don't have to do this anymore. They're all in their 20s and 30s and I'm, you know, this year I'm going to say, hey guys, I just want to let you know the holiday. I'm going to move down to one gift this year because one, I really can't afford to do an extravagant holiday, you know, and two, it makes it easier. It just makes it easier. And I am in the stage of my life. I'm 60. I just want things to be easy. And also too, I travel for the holidays and my kids travel for the holidays. We go to my daughter's house in California. And so a lot of times people have carry ons so they can't bring huge presents home and stuff like that. So being thoughtful about a gift, I, I do feel like, you know, a gift card to somebody's favorite store is a little bit higher up in the food chain than like a Visa card. So, like, you know, be thoughtful about what your person that you like does. You know, if your daughter loves to have a spa day, give her, you know, buy a gift card for a manicure and pedicure at her favorite place. Yeah. You know, because then they're like my child. Last year, my second child who's non binary. They. I went to their hometown where they're living, and I got them a gift certificate for a massage. And they were thrilled because I just happened to choose the place they go by all the time, and they just don't have the money to do it. So they were so excited about that. They said, I always go by that place, and I always want to go in and get a massage, but I can't. And now I can. So, you know, being thoughtful about that, asking, maybe doing a little sleuthing before the holidays to see what your kids are into these days. And kids. Kids change, you know, something your child might have been into at 18, they may not be into at 25.

Exactly.

You know, and so, like, thinking about, like, how can I give a thoughtful gift without breaking the bank?

And how can I create a memorable experience without breaking the bank? I couldn't tell you what gifts my daughter and I exchanged when she was 16 years old, but I can tell you that that was the year that she established that Jeremiah the unicorn was going to be on top of the tree instead of a star. And we've now made, like, a whole ceremony of it. And for the past eight years, we put the Christmas unicorn on the tree.

I love that. Yeah.

Yeah. And it's just like this. This lasting, sweet thing, or. Or two years post separation, the kids and I decided to transform Thanksgiving into what we call Chili's Giving. And we don't do a big turkey and turkey dinner and all that because it's a huge effort and expense and it was frankly expensive to have a big turkey dinner right before Christmas. So we did Chili's Giving and same sentiment, but we all pitched in and made chili, and everybody had enough to take home with them, and it was different. And eight years later, we still do Chili's Giving. In fact, we love Chili's Giving.

That's wonderful.

Yeah.

One of the things that we have done is that Tanda and I have a group of friends here, and so we have a friendsgiving on Thanksgiving. And it is actually so much better than what I used to experience because We're a group of queer folks. Everybody brings something. We all get together and it's a wonderful time. Last year we went out for the first time. Now I think this was the second time. We went out to my daughter's house because she has the baby, and, you know, it's so much easier for us to go there than for her to come here. And I'm a big believer in that. I've traveled with four kids, so I know what it's like. And, you know, I don't want to force anyone to do that. And we went to. So we had a really wonderful day. But on Christmas day, we went to see a movie, and it was the Bob Dylan movie, because my son wanted to see it.

It was really good.

I mean, we had Christmas dinner and everything like that. And then about two or three, we went to see a movie. But I really like going to the movies on Christmas. A good friend of mine who was a pastor of a church, he would have to do Christmas Eve service, and he and his family went out for Chinese every Christmas Eve because he had to work.

Yes, that's a great tradition. I love that.

And, folks, being a minister is work. And being is work. That is a job.

Yes. Yeah. Responsible for a whole congregation of people and their Christmas experience. Right.

So, absolutely. So we want to give you some. Just some micro exercises. If you go to the holiday party and it's getting hard. So this is a quick reset. You can use in the bathroom or in the porch in your. Or in your car. So perhaps you had an upsetting thing happen, but you want to go back in and be with your family. Okay, so this is the bathroom or the porch, or you're leaving. You just can't do it. And so you're in your car before you get off and drive, because driving upset is never a good idea in all of these situations. Place both feet on the ground. Notice the ground. The floor it is. Name five things you can see. Name four sensations you can feel fabric, air on skin or the chair. Name three sounds you can hear. Name two smells you can smell to sense, even if it's very, very faint. Name one taste. Perhaps it's mint coffee or simply just neutral. Now take one slow inhale for four, hold for two, and exhale for six.

Notice just if anything, during that exercise that if things are starting to soften, you're getting out of that reaction mode and back into the present into your wise mind, not how much that you return to that, even if it's just like 1 little percent if it shifted the needle. You can repeat this too, by the way. You know, if you need to.

Actually, that is. It's so subtle. You can also repeat it in a room full of people. So if you're really struggling but you want to stay, you are able to sit there and do that. So just remember your five senses. 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. And if you can't remember the exact order, you can remember your five senses. So you can switch it up. Barb, what's the second exercise that we can do?

Okay, so another thing that you can do is. Oh, and I love this one because I'm a big believer in mantra for changing thoughts. Let's craft a pocket mantra that you can just whip out and just whisper to yourself before you ring that doorbell. Or you can say it to yourself as you're doing the cleanup and take some time to be mindful about it if you can, by just placing your hand on your chest. I like to place my hand over my heart because it feels like I'm offering myself. There's always. It is. And we have nerve endings there. And I think, like, this is also maybe, like, linked to, like, maternal caregiving and giving yourself that, like, compassion, right? It feels good. So place your hand on your heart and like you said, inhale for four, exhale for six, and letting your shoulders drop, then saying your line. And I'm going to give you a suggestion here, but adjust it to so it makes sense for you. I can move at my pace that my body can hold, my needs matter. Whatever version of that feels right for you, say it out loud with intentionality, and say it in your head as well.

And if you need for me, like, sometimes remembering those things, I am, you know, you can write it on a sticky note. But I love my notes in my phone because I can put things like that. So put it on your phone as your lock screen if you want to. So, you know, in our culture now, everybody's used to people glancing down at their phone. Maybe you are in a new relationship and you're totally in love with your girlfriend. You can put that picture on the phone with the matcha over it and use that as something to keep you grounded when you're in a place where you're feeling unsafe. So I want to give you a listener worksheet, and I want you to grab your note app and I'm gonna give you five prompts. So here we go. My first signal of overwhelm is my exit line, is my three non negotiables, my ally code word. So for example, if you have some somebody that is your ally that is at that family event, you use your safe word. Barb and I. My safe word is Costco. So if you have an ally within the group, a setting of your family, using your code word to let them know, hey, I'm struggling and you need to help me out here. And the fifth thing is one tradition I'll start this year. We will put these five prompts in the show notes so that you can put them in your phone so that you can write them out and have them ready.

Good. And listen, these are five prompts, but if you even do one of them, you're ahead of the game. That's momentum, that's progress. So right for what you can do.

Clearly, clarity comes when we take one small step at a time. Everybody comes to Barb and I seeking clarity. And clarity only comes through action. It doesn't come by spinning your wheels. It doesn't come by ruminating over and over and over and over and over and over in your head.

Nope.

Clarity comes by action using this script, even if you don't. Even if you don't use it on the holiday. But writing it down, that's a step forward.

Yes, it surely is. So three takeaways here. You don't owe anyone a full explanation at the holiday table, right? Second takeaway. Boundaries are self care. They are not conflict. Third takeaway, Build at least one moment of queer joy.

And if this episode helped, share it with someone who could use a softer holiday. And honestly, even if it's just a friend of yours that's going through a divorce, it's all the same. And so for steady companionship, come find us inside of authentically us, our community, with gentle holiday support circles and weekly meditation. We are so grateful you're here. Take a breath, pick one boundary and let that be enough for today.

You've been listening to Coming out and LGBTQIA stories with Ann Marie Zanzel. New episodes of the Coming out and beyond podcast drop every other Friday. You can tune in at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google podcasts and@annmariezanzel.com be sure to hit subscribe when tuning in so you never miss an episode. And for more resources, articles, videos and a free downloadable guide for coming out later in Life, visit visit annmariezanzel.com.