Hi, I'm Jesse Hirsch, and welcome to Metaviews, recorded live in front of an automated audience.

And today we're going to talk about a rather controversial subject, the death of the future with Mike Oppenheim.

Who?

Mike, in your defense, you had no idea we were gonna talk about the death of the future?

I prefer to have all my guests as off guard as possible.

And in fact, my first two segments of every episode are really meant as Icebreakers, so that we tap into the intuition of our guests.

But over the last few episodes, I've actually altered these first two segments so that they're not just icebreakers, they're tests.

Tests that the guest must pass in order to continue.

Dun, dun, dun.

So, with that said, our first segment is the news, partly because Metaviews publishes a daily newsletter on Substack.

And, Mike, you're also on Substack.

And I should say, as an aside, that I have a cat who may walk into the studio while I'm recording.

And this cat has an opposable thumb.

Ah, that's awesome.

Hasn't figured out how to use that opposable thumb yet, but she's young, so I wouldn't hold it past her.

But in our news segment, really, we throw to our guest and say, in this crazy news cycle, what are you paying attention to?

And this could be personal news.

This could be world news.

This could be industry news.

This could, and it's meant to both give us a sense of kind of what's on your mind.

But we really want you to tell our audience what you think they should be paying attention to, in large part because you were doing so yourself.

I have three answers that perfectly will explain my personality and yet are deeply embarrassing because you're forcing me to admit them and say them honestly and live.

I am thinking a lot about whether democracy ever existed in the country I live in called America.

I am thinking about why some people are allowed to make immense profits and others are not, in relation to the assassination of a CEO from United Healthcare.

And I am also thinking, just as my weird personality, about how awesome it was to watch the Kansas City Chiefs get completely humiliated in the super bowl because I love sports.

I, I, I, I, I've.

I'm a Bills fan, if I'm to be nice.

So a lot of heartbreak, but I do like the Eagles, and I was happy to see Kansas City defeated.

So a plus for you on that news test.

That was a very honest and vulnerable to your point reflection on what's happening in the world I just watched.

I shouldn't say just.

But I didn't watch the show last night, but this morning I watched the halftime show and I found it actually quite subversive.

I think it went over the heads of most people, but Samuel Jackson as Uncle Sam suggesting that the game is not football.

It's kind of America.

Again, there was a kind of subversive pop culture narrative that I enjoyed that I found entertaining.

So our second segment on every metaveuce show is WTF or what's the future?

And it's really again an intuitive question where we want to know what's on your event horizon again, so you can inform us, the metaviews audience so that we can be prepared for the future.

Because one of our slogans is nothing's inevitable, provided you're willing to pay attention.

What's in our future is a great reset.

But I would like to temper that with, I'm not talking about a Nintendo entertainment system where you press a button and it blips and resets.

I, it doesn't have to be huge and painful and it also doesn't have to be gentle and slow, but there is a great reset in our future.

I, I think that's fair.

I think as multiple generations, because you, you can't really say that there's a video game generation anymore because it's three, maybe four generations of humans here in North America have grown up playing video games.

And I think to your point, the power of the reset button has given us a false sense of confidence that we can approach everything as if there's a reset button and there isn't.

And to your point, this great reset, sometimes referred to as a massive upheaval, a couple episodes ago we had a guest which was the psychedelic perspective on the decline and fall of the Western civilization.

So yes, this future we are facing is not something that can be undone and it's not something that is as easy as resetting a video game.

So well done, you've passed, you've made it to our final feature segment which is really where we invite our guest in to have a seat and have a far reaching conversation.

And what I do with each of our guests is I pick three pillars that kind of act as, you know, thematic hooks for us to weave our non linear spontaneous conversation through.

And in this case I chose America.

Not America, but Murica.

Right.

As a kind of slang evocation of a part of American culture, death.

Partly because you've spent a lot of time talking about, thinking about understanding something that we as a society neglect and ignore at our peril.

And Then the future, because, of course, we are a future centric podcast.

And I've been thinking a lot lately about the death of the future, and I don't want to unpack my thoughts just yet.

I would rather our conversation kind of flow organically.

But I felt that these three pillars would allow us a lot of room to have a lot of fun and maybe get as deep as we can into this moment of history where we find ourselves recording.

I think today's February 10th.

Is that right?

2025?

Yes, that is again.

Time is moving so fast these days.

It's hard to figure out which country I'm in.

This morning, it's Canada.

I'm not sure how long that's gonna be the case.

So let us talk about Murica, because those of us here in Canada, we are America's on our mind, and we're really starting to wonder about what that means.

So I'm curious, when I evoke that phrase, Murica without the A, what does that bring to mind for you?

Yeah, the first thing it brings to mind, honestly, is that I didn't grow up in America.

And that's been the hardest part about being an American in America, is that I'm from Berkeley, California, which is not even like California.

So it's really hard when I meet people on an international flight or when I go to other countries to really explain to them that I'm not just from an enclave of an enclave within an enclave.

I am like.

Like, you can't even say San Francisco.

I'm not from San Francisco.

I am from the city right next to Berkeley.

And that city, like, hates San Francisco.

And then Oakland is where I spent most of my life, which is the reputation of Oakland has changed 45 times in my lifetime.

I'm 43, so more than once a year.

And so with all that said, I went to college on purpose, quite intentionally, to Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, looking to find which preceded the term America, but was Murica.

And it has been a fascinating journey.

I have many friends from America.

I know many people who not only voted for Donald Trump, but are still currently happy with the results of his election.

I also know many people who would be mad at me for knowing that and saying that.

That is Mirka, to me, is now a blend of, like, is it okay to say this?

Is it okay to talk about this?

Is it okay to share that I talked about this?

If someone's insulting someone I know, is it okay to defend them?

To what extent should I defend them even though I don't feel like defending them?

But they're my friend and I like bacon.

But now I'm a vegan and like, it's just, that's America to me.

It's a really confused culture and I actually would love to throw it back to you with Canada with a couple barbs and jokes that I'm sure you will get.

I'm quite a well read American, so I can name more than Justin Trudeau as like four former and current prime ministers of Canada.

But I will let you know that just about the only name any American had ever gotten used to and was able to say about Canada was Justin Trudeau.

Like, he was as unpopular here as probably he was there.

I don't know, I'm kind of imagining the overall vibe.

But to say that he was detested and made fun of, like, along the lines of Gavin Newsom is a pretty fair assessment.

And, you know, black face scandals and just things like, it's rare that Americans are reading anything about your country or caring.

It's common that we're making fun of you and like being very snotty about it.

But.

And you know, I went to school in Pittsburgh, so I've been to Canada 100 times.

I love Canada.

That's why I'm making these jokes.

But I am curious, how does it feel to have the evocation of the Canadian version of Donald Trump rising into power, but without the braggadocious, like, even, like, no one knows his name, no one knows where he's from.

Like, does it feel different when, like, at the least, at least Americans can say, look, well guys, you know who this guy is.

Like, you've seen him.

We don't have to explain them to you.

Like, how does that feel?

Well, let me pause for that Canadian content.

It's weird.

And I'll say the first thing to say in response because I want to, I have to respond to your point about how difficult it is to talk to people and how easily people can get upset if they feel that you're crossing a line in terms of talking to the other side.

Because here's the part of Canada I think not a lot of Americans realize.

There's a lot of people here who love Trump.

There's a lot of people here who have been hypnotized, infected, drank the Kool Aid of MAGA and QAnon and all that nonsense.

And this offer by the Great Dealmaker to become the 51st state.

There's a lot of fools, there's a lot of people who have been seduced by that promise, by that deal politically to your Point, I think most Canadian politicians prefer that Americans never know who they are.

And, you know, while the interesting thing about Trudeau is I'm not sure I would compare him to Gavin Newsom, only because I think Gavin Newsom does have some support in California.

Yeah, that's fair.

Trudeau lost almost all the support he has.

He has some affection from people who recognize that he was not the worst politician in the world, but he is a legitimate victim of a disinformation campaign that has been so successful, so thorough, I don't think there's anyone really here in this country who would say, yeah, let's have that guy.

And the guy who's gonna replace him, Mark Carney, who is not really associated with the Trudeau regime, he gets a fresh start.

But quite frankly, I think the Liberals are done, partly because there are so many MAGA heads in Canada, and there are so many people in Canada who've been seduced by the rhetoric and propaganda of the far right that that is why this is such a perilous moment.

But I loved how you distinguished Berkeley.

Right.

An enclave and an enclave and an enclave, because that's what a lot of Canadians and even Americans fail to see about America.

Right?

That it is incredibly heterogeneous, that there are so many regions, so many states that operate so differently.

And I think that is a narrative that's going to become more relevant as we move deeper into the Trump administration.

But I do want to come back, and I'll form it in a kind of question about how difficult it can be to talk to people, because I kind of feel that that is a trap.

So let me take one tangent.

I don't believe there's such a thing as cancel culture.

Right.

I feel that cancel culture is a paranoia of the right.

And the left has been seduced by the idea that they have the power to cancel when they don't, and that instead, this is all a delusion of the right.

And so the idea that we can't talk to each other, we have to push through that.

And that's not easy, because you almost have to be a professional facilitator, a professional social worker, a professional therapist all rolled into one to talk to people about their political trauma and not upset them, because everyone's got political trauma.

Left, right, middle, whatever.

So here's my question.

How do you navigate that?

Because I'm assuming from your description that you do, or at least you're trying, right?

So do you have any tips?

Do you have any lessons that you've gleaned from the messy minefield that is public discourse as it currently exists.

Yeah, but I feel like it's too tall of a task for most people, but you actually have it, and I have it, and it's called read the room.

If you can read a room, you can navigate through any conversation.

I went to a all women's grad.

I was a graduate student at an undergrad all women's school where they very reluctantly allow men in.

And not only that, but it was very racially minority sensitive, and I was a white dude with a penis.

And I was able to go through the two years there, and I left with many friends and many skills, clearly.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I watched guys fall to the wayside, and I've seen people flounder and I've seen people get, like, heated and be unable to understand that.

Like, feel the heat.

Admit you feel heat, like always.

Just be honest.

I think most people respect honesty more than they disrespect or anything else.

I think the feeling of respect for honesty and by the way, ties into Trump.

This is something people who hate Trump hate to hear.

He tells a lot of truths and he also tells lies.

And no admit that he says things that even I go, wow, I've been waiting for someone in public to say that.

One of my favorite things he ever said, and I will never, ever not think that this was amazing, is he said, hey, Hillary Clinton, if you hate me so much, why did you invite me to your daughter's wedding?

That sums up everything I have as a class focused person as opposed to race.

Like, I believe class divides us and fake divides us and also really divides us more than anything else.

And I don't think communism or socialism is the solution to class wars.

I think the solution is.

I don't know, I won't even get into that.

But we will get into that.

But please continue.

Get into whatever you want, but a Trump apologist.

And I'm not a Trump proponent, but I'm a.

This guy is president.

He exists.

And the fact that you.

You nailed it.

You nailed it, and I didn't see it coming.

You are so right.

I thought you could get canceled.

But the second CNN had their special town hall event with Donald Trump, I was like, oh, you just said Beetlejuice for the third time, you morons.

You just re released the spirit.

That was.

How hard was it to put Trump back in the box?

We thought Pandora's box couldn't be closed.

Americans actually figured out how to shove that dude back in, and he was gone.

There was Not a chance at all of him coming back and rising to power and then CNN going back to class, profit driven, needed those ratings.

Trump's back.

Yeah, well, and you know, to Your other point, RFK Jr, who I thoroughly detest, he is the first person in power.

And I can say he's in power because it looks like he will be in the cabinet to criticize Big Pharma.

And people should be criticizing like, and for example, like during the, the pandemic, which for the record, is still on, when everyone was talking about the vaccines.

Right.

Instead of saying, no, vaccines are terrible because of Big Pharma, we should have said, vaccines owned by Big Pharma are terrible.

Let's develop the vaccines, make them open source, make them free, let everyone in the world use them.

Right.

And then you could verify what's going on.

Right.

And that nuance just doesn't exist in politics.

Right.

For him to say, oh, yeah, Big Pharma is a problem, which it is.

He then has to go further and say, and all medicine is a problem.

And then you're like, no, buddy, you threw the baby out with the bathwater.

Come on.

Right.

But to your point, I think the reason that Trump is popular, which he is, is because he's anti establishment and the establishment is just indefensible.

And the more people who.

There's people within the establishment who know it's indefensible, but their livelihood depends upon it.

And everyone else who's not is like, no, forget it, we need something else.

Of course, the paradox to your point about him telling the truth and lying is that he is anti establishment and the establishment.

Right?

That is the paradox where, you know, if only we could have an anti establishment person be the anti establishment candidate at the the same time, but they sabotaged Bernie because they're not yet ready for a Jew to lead the country.

I digress.

But back to Murica, because you introduce a level of nuance that very few people do.

To your point about enclaves, and I also wanted to mention, I agree with you that Oakland has evolved 45 or 50 times, but too short, and E40 still are ambassadors in a way that allows a through line of consistency at Oakland.

But how do you, as someone who is clearly different, you're an outlier, right?

You're an outlier for a bunch of different reasons, including where you went to school, where you grew up, your ethnic identity.

How do you relate to Murica outside of the point of trying to be a conversationalist, trying to be someone who connects people and talks to people, how do you feel a sense of place, a sense of self within that maelstrom, right within that kind of crazy storm that's always, you know, going nuts, blowing things over.

So I'm going to answer the future part and then this, because it totally ties in.

I am no longer convinced that only free will or only predetermination exists.

I am thoroughly convinced that both exist.

And in order to explain my answer, that has to be the premise that the audience accepts briefly to hear my answer.

I do believe that everything in real time feels like it's in real time.

But I also have experienced enough events that I feel very certain that some things have been ordained.

I believe free will ordains predetermination.

So I believe that we are not stuck in time.

I'm gonna.

Billy Pilgrim.

Kurt Vonnegut nod goes here, because I do think he was onto something brilliant in Slaughterhouse 5 that few people want to write or talk about, which is this idea of time and how time works.

And so Kurt Vonnegut introduced this to me when I was young and I loved reading every book of his.

And really stuck, which is.

I do believe that sometimes I feel like I wanted to come to a place with a place like America, and I wanted to be in that culture to provide a counterpoint and a leadership to that culture, because that culture is a leader, like it or not.

And when I taught ESL for 10 years, I was told by Chinese students and Russian students, we prefer America being in charge than our countries.

We hate our governments and don't trust them much more.

Even though we hate your government and don't trust them.

It's like if you had two abusive parents and one was slightly less abusive, you would want to live with that parent over the other.

Yeah, but I agree, but that's a little bit of grass is greener on the other side, though.

But yes, nonetheless.

But only because they would say to me.

Am I parodying what they said?

Because I actually don't necessarily agree, but I do agree that we have not given up yet.

I do think that the average Russian has accepted they live in an oligarchy many moons ago.

I believe the average Chinese person has accepted that they live in a kleptocracy or some form of a, you know, worse than an oligarchy.

And I don't believe Americans have accepted that were either.

I would say both words are being thrown out a lot now.

And I would say that what you said is it's basically two establishments.

The kleptocracy versus the oligarchy.

Welcome to the Clintons, Meet the Trumps.

I mean, it's a pretty crazy.

Although I agree with you that there are two warring establishments, I feel they're both kleptocracies.

I feel that if we were to delineate their differences, which we can.

That is an interesting exercise unto itself.

But I also want to affirm and build upon your point that America doesn't believe it's an oligarchy, yet there are both a lot of people who will fight for that democracy on either side, the left and the right.

And there are a lot of people who believe so deeply in that democracy that they would vote right.

They would at least do enough to get off their ass and go to the ballot box, which not every American does.

But what worries me is the level of delusion.

And this gets into the boiling frog metaphor, right?

Is the frog of Myrica being boiled so slowly that it will think it's free until it's not?

Or is there time for the frog to go, holy shit, I got to jump out of the pot?

And I could go either way, depending on the day.

Because what differentiates America from any other country is the extent to which there are certain virtues, certain values, certain ideals that are fused into the culture and remain outside of the state, remain outside of the government.

And to me, that was part of the halftime show yesterday with Kendrick Lamar where you're seeing bits of that of, no, we will fight back if we have to.

Let's talk about.

Epstein didn't kill himself that moment in time.

That was the only time I've seen what you're talking about in real time and it was quelled successfully.

And that's really scary.

So I don't.

I would say that leads to the frog is boiling to death, because that was the only time I've ever been inspired by my country.

Like that sounds.

But to your point, I would also.

And we are speculating here, I would also argue that that was an incident like Luigi Mangione, where both of sides of the warring establishment were united.

Yeah, right.

And.

And both had an incentive to.

To not.

Not let that play.

Yeah, right.

That's really scary to me.

That's the scariest thing of, like.

And also, I don't get, like, arrested and then I get to talk about what happened.

If I really step out of line in both sides don't like me.

My car goes into a tree.

Everyone knows that my brakes were checked a week before.

Everyone knows that I called seven friends and said, if my car goes into a tree.

Please report this.

And then the news cycle just keeps moving.

Yeah, these people, these whistleblowers, it's like.

Although I, I, I, I agree with you historically, but, and, and I, I don't want to get too off track, but this is still actually legitimately under the topic of America.

I actually think that one of the beneficiaries of the current policy agenda will be the prison industrial complex.

Right.

The for profit prison system is not only a huge source of economy, especially for the towns that these prisons are like the only industry in, but the labor potential of prisoners, which we've certainly seen in California with the forest fires.

You know, I kind of did the connecting the dots when, as I'm sure you know, California produces a lot of the agriculture, a lot of the specially luxury foods that America and Canada depend on, and a lot of their migrant workers bailed and split rather than take the chance of being deported or detained.

So how long before prison labor starts being used on those farms is my concern.

That's where I'd say, Mike, you may not be killed, which is not necessarily a bad outcome.

You might be imprisoned.

And I would say, I'm glad I read that's like my honest answer because I would find meaning in prison.

I would, like, I have, I can tell we're pretty similar.

Like, I'll watch the narrative as long as they let me.

I will, like, I will fight to live in a horrible, degrading circumstance.

I would like, this is a, like a weird.

Well, I just, I want to mention, I think it fits in and I like the way that I can just kind of name drop and you understand what I'm saying.

But I don't think it's a coincidence that Biden pardoned the judge in Pennsylvania who did the kids for cash scandal.

Michael Conahan, I think was his name.

No, please elaborate.

Oh, yeah.

So I think a lot of people didn't see this, but Biden pardoned a lot of people, including his crackhead son on the way out of office.

Although as an aside, I totally support him pardoning his son because A, family and B, you know, the Trump people would have come after him just for kicks.

Yeah, yeah, right.

Like he, he's already paid, he's already been punished a lot.

Right.

And I personally have a lot of empathy for addicts and, and drug users, so.

But anyway, please show you the story you were sharing.

I think that's a good aside and I do have the same attitude.

I think it would be weird for a dad not to pardon their Kids, right.

Yeah, you'd question what kind of a dad he was.

Anyway, we digress, please.

So this I'm actually going to look at an article so if you see my eyes reading because I don't want to give misinformation on your awesome podcast.

Victims of a former Pennsylvania judge convicted in the so called Kids for Cash scandal are outraged, are outraged by Joe Biden's decision to grant him clemency on the.

In 2011, Michael Conahan was sentenced to more than 17 years in prison after he and another judge, Mark C.

Were found guilty of accepting $2.8 million in illegal payments in exchange for sending more than 2,300 children, including some as young as 8 years old, to private juvenile detention centers.

There's a lot more in this article.

All you have to do is look up Cash for Kids Joe Biden.

Yeah, it's all like some small thing and yeah, I think that speaks and then it's also just to repeat what you said.

Anyone out there screaming Biden was good, Trump is bad.

Just remember Biden pardoned this guy and Republicans support the prison industrial complex.

So what really going on here?

Well, and 1980s records on what he did to drug specifically people.

Yeah, which is why by the way, I just.

Yeah, okay.

Well to your point though, this is why the ideology of America is money.

Right.

And to your point about class, where the ruling class is united is money.

Right.

Where they differentiate is small stuff, you know, in comparison.

Although that is changing.

Right.

This is where it, where the detente that existed between the two sides of the establishment has completely abandoned.

They're now openly at war with each other.

Whether the other side, like whether the, you know, a big D Democrat actually starts to defend itself or fight back.

I'm still waiting to see it kind of seems like they're rolling over and kind of letting MAGA take it all.

And you know, before we move off America as a subject, as a Canadian, as someone who you know, fundamentally my view of America is mediated in some way, shape or form.

One of the big discourses that I've been picking up on and that we again as Canadians hear a lot about is shit like the price of eggs and the impact that everyday items and the rising cost of everyday items is having on Americans.

To what extent is that real and to what extent could Republican voters feel some I, I regret buyers remorse when the prices of their goods continue to go up in spite of the great leaders promises to do otherwise?

Yeah, so I, my dad is a stock market person.

It's kind of hard to explain because he's had a lot of different careers within it.

But he, he got me as like an enthusiastic fan of like paying attention to markets and the economy.

So for better or for worse, even though I'm not a money manager and I don't like, have a lot of cash to invest and stuff, I am always following this stuff.

So the inflation rate right now in the Trump presidency is speculated and already a percent higher than Biden's.

If you Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Just.

But this is important to understand.

Biden's was the worst ever.

So it's not really a great, like talking point.

If you're on any side to start talking about how Trump's plan is worse than Kamala's.

Let's say Kamala's plan was more of the same, which is the worst four years any Americans ever experienced with in regards to inflation.

So, yes, it's real.

I have two young children and I go grocery shopping every week, every single Sunday at the same time at the same store for six years.

Now.

The girls aren't that old, but you get my point.

I have seen the grocery bill just in the last nine months go up by over $50 every week.

That's impossible.

That's not because my little girl started eating like more gummy tethers, especially produce and it's especially organic produce.

And which sucks because I'm under the disillusion that I hope RFK will break, which is that buying organic actually makes a difference in my life.

I'm shelled out because the guilt of giving my kids non organic is higher than all of the science I've read.

I'm also still recycling, even though I don't believe they're doing jack with that.

Like all my.

And sorry, I should have asked this earlier.

Where do you live?

I live in Phoenix, Arizona right now.

Okay, yeah, fair enough.

You live in a desert, so.

Yeah, you're gonna have to pay more for food, friend.

Yeah.

And I live in the sixth biggest market in America now and it's been a flood of California, myself included.

So it's very to watch what's going on.

But we have like.

But the egg thing.

What's weird is there's a talking point about avian bird flu and how they had to kill all these stuff.

So like, it's weird because this is the problem with low information, mid information and high information is people get to cherry pick and make intelligent arguments.

So it's very.

You mean they try to take.

Make intelligent arguments?

Yeah.

Right.

Like doesn't mean they succeed, but please continue.

And I think it's, you know, I studied philosophy.

It doesn't mean I'm rigorously good at philosophy, but I do understand, like, why Peter Singer is one of my heroes and why I read certain philosophy texts and trust them over others.

No one who's good at philosophy is in charge.

Talking to someone in charge or doing it.

But meanwhile, great orators and great lawyers are in charge, and JD Vance may or may not be one of them.

Peter Thiel, like the people driving a lot of power and movements right now, are very good at making sound arguments that aren't actually sound.

And there's an art to that.

And Trump doesn't even do that, which is part of his magic.

But by surrounding himself with these people, which, by the way, I would like your opinion as an outsider insider, I see no order to this.

I don't think Peter Thiel controls Trump, and I don't think Vance is.

I actually think Musk.

I think these planets are dangerously orbiting, and I don't know how certain any of them are about when they're going to quit on each other.

So, yeah, there's rarely order in a coup.

There is usually destruction and conspiracy and schemes.

I think fundamentally power resides in the president.

How long the president can maintain that power while these billionaires are dancing around him is anyone's question.

Why Trump, why anybody would trust Musk with the government's computers or the government's money is beyond me.

We could very much end up with Musk, as when the musical chairs are done, he's the one sitting on the throne.

But to your point, I would never underestimate Peter Thiel, and he for sure is a formidable villain and has his hands all over this and his people in particular.

It's partly why Wired magazine is doing such a great job reporting, because they've got ins with all the Silicon Valley people.

And the Silicon Valley people are the ones at least on the evil side report really at play.

But I agree with you, currently, there is no order.

This is about move fast and breaking things.

And they are doing both very successfully.

And they're assuming, as the big tech always has, that it's more about velocity than control, that if you can be faster than everybody else, if you can scale better than everyone else, you don't need control.

You will have all the money and, and the spoils.

But these are early days.

I am still struggling to kind of figure out what's going on.

And I think this is an excellent segue to kind of death as A general theme for us to talk about because we could be seeing the death of democracy.

Although I did like your argument that maybe democracy was never really yet born.

And that may have been why this coup is particularly so successful or slippery at the moment.

But I also felt that death was an appropriate segue after talking about what's happening to all the birds in North America these days.

A lot of death going on.

But allow me to throw you the broader question of what is.

And again, we're talking Murica here, not America.

What is Murica's relationship with death?

The same relationship a 18 year old has with the symptoms of herpes and they still want to get laid.

It's just do anything but talk about it, think about it, distract yourself, lie, do anything it takes to not.

That was good.

That was good.

Just sad.

It's really sad.

I spend a healthy amount of time thinking about mortality and I don't spend an unhealthy amount of time with it.

People who think I spend too much time on it, they have the unhealthy obsession with avoiding it.

It's not death and taxes, it's just death, people.

It really is.

And it's not a bad certainty.

And I'm very convinced that just like I don't want to take a vacation that has no end to Tahiti, I don't want to be on earth forever.

And I don't even want my young youthful body and my young arrogance forever.

And I love being.

Oh, sorry.

Yeah, yeah.

I do have to point out you are a philosopher.

You did allude to that earlier.

And as much as we might wish that philosophizing was a common trait, it ain't.

But please continue.

Yeah, and that's a good point.

And that's the thing is I don't think thinking about death is so important as so much as accepting it.

So if you can accept it the way my three year old has, hopefully she'll keep accepting it.

That's the hard part.

But I mean she matter of factly says like, dad, you're gonna die.

Because she doesn't think as a bad concept.

She doesn't understand it either.

But she also doesn't understand sleep and neither do you and neither do I.

So like, there's a lot of exit points in life and like, although you.

Don'T know if I understand sleep or not, we, we can address that.

Now to your point about your daughter, to what extent does attachment complicate our relationships to death?

Because the benefits of a three year old is she has limited attachment, probably Some.

But the younger you are, the less attachment you have, generally speaking.

I'm curious if that is a correlation that's come up through your philosophizing.

That's a great, great question.

It is hard, hard to even answer it because like, even every day she's like, different and things recede and come back.

But I would say watching conceptual construction is fascinating.

I'm a linguist too.

Like, I'm.

I taught esl and I'm just love.

I'm obsessed with how the brain learns language.

So I'm obsessed with watching her learn philosophy and language and linking and not linking.

And I'm obsessed with like, her inability to lie, but desire to lie.

Like, that's a cool phase to watch.

She wants to lie, but there's like this compulsion not to lie.

So, like, if I tell her, don't tell mom, we did this funny thing, she can't handle it.

Like, the stress of lying to mommy is too much.

So she'll come home and the first thing she says, mommy, we did that.

But she won't say, daddy said not to tell you this, and vice versa.

Like, very interesting.

And all this is related to death because like her, her elderly grandparents, like some of them are dying in front of her and she doesn't know it.

And we do.

And like, we don't know how to say it.

But what I do know is like, she constantly brings up that things die.

And when she asked what happened to the dinosaurs, I said, well, we're not really sure.

And she said, well, they all died, right?

And I said, yeah.

And she goes, because everything dies.

Even I will die.

And it's like, it's cool to hear that.

So I know I'm not really answering your question because you're.

No, you are, you're.

You're absolutely answering the question.

And, and if only we could experience the world through the eyes of a three year old, I think we would be much closer to the truth in general.

But I think you're absolutely correct in terms of the avoidance that we often take with regard to death and the power that comes from understanding that life is ephemeral, that we are here and we will be gone.

And that is a good thing.

When I was younger and people say, what do you want to be when you grow up?

I would always say old, because not everyone gets to be.

And what do I want to accomplish upon becoming old?

Death, because that's the ultimate prize.

And having that attitude, I think is really important.

I'm curious what other reactions or shivers that people get when you talk to them about death.

We talked about this earlier.

In terms of navigating political fault lines, what are the equivalent when it comes to dealing with the fault lines of mortality?

Yeah, it's been interesting.

I'm going to open up because I think this is the best way to share an answer.

My father, seven or eight years ago, was diagnosed with a fatal heart condition.

The name of it, and the discovery was, like, maybe 10 or 15 years before he was diagnosed with it, amyodolysis or something.

I can't really pronounce it, but the point is they now think it killed 60 to 65% of men for, like, most of history.

It's just a slow building of, like, plasma, not plasma plaque around the heart.

And then eventually, like, different vital signs drop and you die.

It's not considered, like, painful or not painful.

But the point is, right around the time of his diagnosis, the FDA fast tracked and approved a pill that slowed it down.

And so I've gotten many, many, many more years with my father than I was supposed to.

And.

And it's also interesting because I'm a I hate Big Pharma person.

And yet Big Pharma has saved my dad's life.

I mean, this is like, also what a lot of Americans deal with when Luigi kills the CEO.

It's not as simple as F Health care.

It's a much more complicated experience because you have personal.

No, President Obama, people like him, but his grandma couldn't pay for cancer, and that's why we have the Affordable Care Act.

It's like some things supersede, like, your political ambitions and even, like, what you say.

So with my dad and with what I'm relating, what was interesting to me is the first three years when I would say, like, you're dying.

He would say, no, I'm not.

I'm taking a pill.

I'm not dying.

And in my head I'm like, no, no, no, no, no.

Like, screw you.

But it was weird because I was being a hard ass and kind of a dick to my own dad.

Like, there's no harm in him saying that because that's actually like, mind over matter.

Like, I want to live longer.

So this is also a mind F for me is like, this line of, like, avoiding understanding you're gonna die is a problem.

Wanting not to die and wishing for health and like, even despite bad odds, having a positive attitude is amazing and great.

I had a friend die of cancer my own age.

So when he.

When we were both 34, he got cancer and he died around 37.

And it was.

I'll never forget this one private conversation we were having when I was just like, oh, you gave up.

Okay.

Like, now this is much easier.

Like, I was like, you should eat only salmon.

You should.

Like, I'm sending him, like, all these things that I would be doing because I'm a fighter, and he's not.

Not a fighter.

He just, like, in a moment of his cancer, liver cancer, he was just like, now I'm out.

Like, no, this isn't going to work.

And then he had to lie to his parents and his wife and all these people, and he and I could actually share the truth.

And so I was able to help him with that, which is.

Goes back to full circle.

I'm good at helping people die.

I always have been.

My whole life.

I helped moms die of cancer when I was, like, 8 or 9.

And my mom was just like, we don't know what's going on, but we're gonna bring death kid with us.

Well, and death doulas are, you know, a growing field because to your point, we are not dying in the way that we ought to.

We don't have the social supports.

We don't have the family supports.

We don't have the culture.

So, you know, power to you that you're on the front line starting to build this.

But let me take a tangent.

So sleep.

What is it about sleep that mystifies you or makes you go, oh, this is a mystery that nobody knows?

I'm so obsessed with this question and so obsessed with this topic.

I think it.

The obsession became.

When I was a little kid, I had reoccurring nightmares and reoccurring dreams.

But one of them.

I can't even explain the dream to myself, let alone you.

The only thing I can explain is it's a sense of immense frustration with what the dream is about.

And the other thing I could say is every once in a while, when I'm watching ice hockey, something about the way a skate hits the ice and it scrapes it is the dream.

And that's literally the only two signposts I could give to someone.

But that dream has, like, it did haunt me.

Until one day I gave up on figuring it out.

And now I've never had it since.

So the day I stopped kicking, caring about it, it stopped coming.

Then I started reading Nasagada Maharaj's, like, collection of speeches that he gave because he didn't write a book.

And it's called I Am that.

And I've never read any text that connected with me better than his because he was like a chain smoking 80 year old Indian who was like mean to people who came to visit him.

And he wasn't like excited to be a guru and he never called himself one.

And everything about that just stuck with me as like, this is my guy.

Like, if there's a guy I'm going to stake my wisdom on, it's him.

And he just kept saying, all the answers that you want lie in dreaming.

Like, all you have to do is just pay attention to dreams and then pay attention to life and say, who is watching?

Both.

And if you get that, the day you get it, you'll relax because.

Okay, but you.

Sorry.

Yeah, yeah, but it sounds like you do understand sleep.

Yeah, well.

Well, I don't understand sleep.

What I do understand is that I'm not Mike Oppenheim and I'm never Mike Oppenheim in my dream dreams either.

I'm actually like a person watching Mike Oppenheimer, but I'm not behind my head and I'm not even in my head.

And right now I'm looking at Mike Oppenheimer talk and I'm laughing with a different part than the guy who's talking.

So I'm right now.

So again, we, we've.

And I don't mean to be a stickler, but I'm fascinated.

We've diverged into conversations about the self, which is paradoxical and sometimes delusional.

But sleep.

You claimed that neither you nor your daughter nor I knew sleep.

And it sounds like you do know sleep.

This is interesting because I'm.

But who's the.

I see, because this is why it's like a double entendre.

Okay, okay, fair enough.

If you want to claim that you don't know sleep, I am claiming that people around you do.

So you should be careful about who you claim to does not know sleep.

You can speak for yourself, but maybe not for your daughter and other people.

And I like that.

I like that a lot.

But I don't even understand, like, I don't even.

Like we all.

Okay, I can't even say we all.

You know, you said like you're a philosopher, so you think this way.

This is actually.

Sometimes I run into trouble where I can't read the room because every once in a while.

And again you are a philosopher, so I'm not speaking about you, but every once while I am talking about heady stuff like this and I, I see that the person actually missed seven premises ago.

But that's okay.

But.

Okay, let us tangent to another thing 100% comprehension is impossible.

And like good poetry, you have to allow the audience, the reader, the room to interpret shit however they want.

And I say that in the sense that, ideally, it's a dialogue.

So as a dialogue, there's room to further refine and clarify and deal with any misinterpretation or misjudgment.

But there's a need on a certain level to allow, like, broken telephone, to allow the message to go and transform into something else before it comes back to you with something completely different, in which you say, wow, okay, yeah, that's not what I intended, but that's better.

That's what I mean.

Right.

And so that's where I would say, when you're in those.

And I'll reframe that.

Completely different philosophy, like poetry does not always seek clarity.

Sometimes confusion and bewilderment is an excellent outcome of a philosophical discussion or a philosophical conversation.

And I think the mistake we make here in the west is we expect everything to be clear and understood with a topic sentence and a byline.

In fact, I'm doing another podcast this evening, and the guest was like, what do I need to prepare?

And I was like, nothing.

I don't want you to prepare.

Right.

I want you to come and just be spontaneous.

And this person, I think, is having a lot of difficulty with that.

Right.

So that.

That's where I'd say, no, you are reading the room.

You're just sensing that the room is in outer space.

And that's.

That's good.

Yeah.

I really like you, Jesse.

I'm not gonna lie.

Okay.

So, sorry.

Go ahead.

I'll finish.

I think the playfulness is so important.

I just think that, like, there's a lot of who share your opinions, but they don't have the playfulness, and it's really missing.

And I just want to say, I know it's the middle of the podcast, but that's.

My personality in a nutshell, is like, I cannot withhold a genuine compliment when it comes because actually, that's the only real reason I keep wanting to live is I'm starting to realize that, like, I spent so much time trying to get my done so I could be left alone, but I have eternity to be left alone.

And so I should be playing this, like, human game and, like, meeting you wish people could laugh about this shit.

It's so hard.

Well, and we have to, right?

Like, we have to laugh about this shit because that's.

That is the human way.

And in the context of Yiddish culture, it's kibbitzing right, Kibbitzing.

And you got to kibitz with people constantly.

I do want to come back to the Death of the Future, though, because you said something early, which early in the episode, which I thought was worth revisiting, which is our relationship with time.

And I think most people are oblivious to their relationship with time.

I spent a lot of my life and I didn't understand what I was saying, but I knew it was true that I had a problematic relationship with time.

And it was only when I got out of the city in the last seven, eight years that my relationship with time has reconciled.

And I now feel I have a good relationship with time.

But I think it was Stephen Hawking who had this great line, mighty fucking Ben Einstein before him, who said, if we can remember the past, why can't we remember the future?

Right?

And you alluded to that when you sort of said that there's a correlation, a connection between the concept of free will and preordained.

And I think that that reflects that.

If we were to accept the current.

They're not really laws, the current theories of physics, then physics currently asserts that the future has already happened.

That doesn't mean we don't have multiple futures, an infinite number of futures, but it does suggest that our perception of time and space is arbitrary and not necessarily universal.

So I'll give you a moment just to riff on that, and then I want to come back to this notion, paradoxic as it may be called.

The.

The death of the future.

What's so up to me is that I was sure yesterday, five minutes before the kickoff of the Chiefs Eagles game, I was sure as I could ever be that the Eagles were going to kick the living out of the Chiefs, which they did.

And yet I To download an app for the first time in my life to make a legal bet on the game, because I was so sure.

And then I also felt that if I downloaded the app and.

And made that bet, Kansas City was going to win in a squeaker.

Yeah.

And I somehow understood that.

I don't control whether the Chiefs win, but my reality is governed by an implausible thing where I can know the future, but I can also undo it or fuck it up.

So.

Well, it's.

It's possible paths, right?

You see possible paths and forks on the path and you recognize what the delineators of those paths are.

And I think the attachment to go back to what you said about children, when I attach myself, again, speaking only for myself, when I attach myself to an outcome, it is Rare if impossible for that to happen.

And when I'm open minded about either outcome, and I go with a heart full of joy and steam and like, all the goodness that is in me, it doesn't even matter the outcome because whatever the result is, is a better outcome than even of the two I imagine.

And I'm learning this the hard way.

And it has to do everything to do with Pod Match.

And going on these podcasts is like, I suddenly realized halfway through going on podcast, reluctantly, like, oh, my wife says I have to learn how to sell my career.

This is so annoying.

I just want someone to, like, pay me a bit of money for the shit I do and just be left alone.

Like, all my life I just wanted to be left alone.

And then one day I was like, oh, the whole point, the whole fun is picking these podcasts and not going on.

Everyone's saying no to some of these weirdos and then saying yes to some of these weirdos.

Jesse.

Like, like.

And it's all of a sudden, like, so, like today I woke up, like, tired.

I drank like three beers yesterday, and I don't really drink normally, so I even felt like a little bit of a hangover.

And like, you know, we were emailing behind the scenes, but it was, like, funny because part of me was like, I want to cancel.

And then I read this thing on your thing that said, like, if you're going to cancel, do the day before.

And I was like, oh, fuck.

So then, like.

And then I did it to you.

As corrupt as I am, moment in.

My life, I really want to share this because I.

So I was like, all right, fuck it.

I'll just go and meditate for 20 minutes and I'll come back on.

And in the meditation, I got this, like, really funny message.

And I get these messages sometimes, and they're not a voice and it's just me interpreting and putting into words.

But the message was, now you know how it feels.

All those times you canceled, you.

Because I did it so many times, Jesse.

So, so many times.

I was just like, I'm tired.

I'm not in a good mood.

I'm not gonna put my best foot forward.

Now I'm like, your best foot is you in a shitty mood.

Who gives a.

Like, this world is so fake right now.

Just right now.

And you're not fake, and I'm not being fake, but I'm gonna go back to being fake later for sure.

I have to.

Well, why.

Okay, why do you have to, though?

Let's, let's.

Let's Call that why?

Because I.

Yeah, because I'm afraid.

Afraid of what happens to people who aren't fake, which is they get pushed further and further away from the non.

From the fake people.

And then.

But, but this is my point about cancel culture.

I, I don't think that happens.

Yeah.

Like, I don't think you'll be pushed away.

I think whether you'll be pushed away is going to happen regardless of whether you're fake or not.

Right.

And the, and I'll put, I'll frame it more into general terms because I talk about this with my partner all the time because she has rejection, sensitivity, dysphoria, which is that when you are rejected and your perception of rejection is so sensitive that if I say to her, no, I can't talk right now to her, that's a rejection and it hurts her so deeply, that is different than the ostracization that you're describing.

And so I say this in the sense of what you discovered in college, and maybe you discovered it earlier, is that vulnerability is power.

Right?

That if you are a little bit self effacing, if you are the minority and instead of acting like an ass, you act like a fool, it's endearing, right?

And people are like, all right, okay, yeah, cool, you're with us.

That works with everybody.

Right?

That if, if you.

And I say this as a weirdo who definitely faked it for most of my life, but I no longer, anywhere, anytime, I am weird in, in the Hunter Thompson sense of when the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.

And honestly, if you can read the room, and I do want to come back to that later, you can, you have the privilege of being weird.

You have the privilege of being crazy.

You have the privilege of being different.

Because that is not what people are going to react to.

People are going to react to a threat.

And weird people, crazy people, different people are perceived as threats.

But if you're smart enough to instantly make it clear you're not a threat by making fun of yourself, by disparaging yourself, by doing what Jews often do, which is make fun of themselves instantly, that shit goes away, right?

And they're totally fine.

So this is again, this is where I'll say, be weird, be crazy.

You're a compelling, interesting individual.

Although I will, because in the spirit of vulnerability, I will admit one of my own insecurities, shortcomings.

I instantly.

This is why I almost interrupted you earlier when you did it.

I instantly discredit anyone who compliments me because my self loathing is such I'm like, well, they don't know what I know.

And if they knew what I knew, they wouldn't compliment me.

So clearly they're stupid.

Cause, ha ha, you know, again, I've gotten over that a little, but the instinct, the gut reaction is still there.

And so this is why I say we gotta be weird.

We gotta be crazy and encourage others to be crazy so that we can have these cross political dialogues.

And cross.

I don't like the word tribal, but like cross cultural dialogues beyond the fault lines that make people pissed off about whatever, you know, chip they have on their shoulder, right?

Or cause that they have on their sleeve that they want people to fight over.

We have the privilege to infiltrate and go past that.

And we have, I think, a duty to be weird when we do it so that people go, oh, yeah, be it weird.

That's the way I gotta do that.

First of all, it was very inspiring and it really was.

It's just a compliment.

So I apologize, but make me do awful things.

So don't worry.

But the.

You said something that I just want to remark because I find it always funnier and funnier the older I get.

And especially like a day or two after Kanye west is now removed from Twitter for being an anti Semite.

I still believe the most anti Semitic people on earth are Jews.

And we talk about and make fun of ourselves and we disparage ourselves, but part of it is exactly what you said, which is, well, we would have all been killed off if we didn't do that.

Like, if we weren't funny enough to be just barely tolerated.

And what's weird is I'm not even a Jew because I'm not like, I don't know how to explain to people, but like, Hitler will kill me.

You'll kill me.

You can tell me I'm related to these weirdos in Israel, but, like, I'm not.

I really don't feel related to anyone.

I feel more related to you right now than I do relatives.

But you're clearly a Larry David Jew, right?

Yes, yes, yes.

Yeah, yeah.

Because like, that is exactly.

And this is where, like, people don't underestimate the diversity of Jewish culture.

Right?

And to your point of anti Semitism, I removed all my substack today.

I had a comment on a previous issue, an anti trans comment, and I deleted it.

And I was talking to my partner about it.

She's like, yeah, like, just like you would delete something if it was anti racist or anti Semite.

I said, well, I would delete the Anti racist, I would delete the anti trans.

I might not delete the anti semitic one because I have that privilege.

And it might be funny.

And you know, again, there's a little contradiction there.

Self hating Jews.

It's a culture, it's a tradition.

But again, we digress.

I want to come back to this death of the future piece in part because what strikes me about the.

Where we were talking before about how, what if the future already exists, right?

What if we can remember the past, we can't remember the future.

So therefore the concept of the death of the future should be oxymoronic, right?

It should be a contradiction that there is no like we die, but the future continues without us.

But where the phrase death of the future draws my curiosity is it speaks to when people are have lost hope, right?

And not individual hope, but collective hope, right?

That they just don't see a future worth living.

And it doesn't just impact them, it impacts how they treat others, right?

Because it's one thing in terms of your friend who said, you know, I just don't want to live anymore and that's his choice.

But if we as people, if we as members of a society start believing that the future is dead, that's when we start treating each other badly, right?

That's when we stop feeling that society exists and instead start thinking that it's everyone for themselves, right?

It's survival of the fittest.

So I'll ask you, as a philosopher who meditates on death, do you think there's a danger of America starting to embrace this idea that the future is dead?

That there really isn't the American dream as existed, as mythological as it might be, the American dream was a motivation for many people.

Is there a danger that it is dying and the future with it?

There's the relative answer and then the non relative answer.

So the relative answer is.

Absolutely.

If you view the word danger as a risk to life the way you've known it and want it to be as an average human, then yes, there's a huge danger.

I would say it's at critical point right now.

And I would say as much as I love 20 year olds who get rid of cell phones and get flip phones and move out into nature, that unfortunately won't work because nature is going to be owned by BlackRock.

So like there's a with.

Hold on.

Sorry.

That was too good.

That was too good.

Nature is going to be owned by BlackRock.

Croc Zing.

Please continue.

So, because I've thought this out a lot Like, I wanted to just earn enough money to buy my own little house.

I really, like, planned it out, and I knew how to do it.

And I.

Solar panels, you know, get everything.

It all legal.

Where I live in Phoenix, I got solar panels in my house.

Guess what?

I'm not allowed to run them myself.

I'm not allowed to run them in my own generator and use them.

I have to pay the city to send it back to them and get it back.

They give me a rate.

So it's already too late if you live in a major city right now in America, I can't speak about Canada or any other country.

But my point is, going off the grid works if you want to be off the grid when you die.

And, like, you don't know when it happens.

And it also might even work longer than.

Than the average person in the city.

But the point is, that's not the solution.

If you care about humanity.

If you care about humanity, the only solution is to stay and do the hard work, which is to listen patiently, or at least to fake it while people argue, argue, argue.

And like you said, there's.

I'm not a threat, but that also means I can't evoke change.

But I can if I'm not a threat and young enough people adopt the I'm not a threat approach.

And like, my idol growing up was Kurt Cobain.

Now, granted, he blew his brains out, and that was really, really effed up, and it messed me up really badly.

He.

He still.

His message stuck, which is he put in his liner notes, if you're the kind of guy who would, like, rape a girl, don't buy this fucking album.

If you use the word fag, don't buy this album.

And, like, that meant a lot to me.

I know that Geffen sold that album to a lot of those people.

I know.

Like, I understand all that, but you can still be a part of the system, and you can still profit or not profit.

But if your voice and your message is true and clean, which his was, it was.

Kurt Cobain was a lot of things, but, like, I've met people who knew him, and, like, he was like.

Like, people were exacerbated by it.

Like, like, dude, come on, just dress normally.

Just do this thing.

But, like, he wouldn't.

And he wouldn't, like, take it, and he died.

Like he said, scoliosis and heroin.

But I think a part of it was just, like, I can't keep doing this.

I can't become a.

A demagogue.

His words.

And deal with the Guilt of, like, complying with the system.

So a lot of, you know, Jim Morrison was maybe similar, but am I kind of making a point?

Oh, you are.

And to bring us back to something we said earlier, you know, everyone's railing about against Big Pharma.

Why isn't anyone talking about big culture, Right?

The music industry.

The music industry has been a predator for decades.

And when you brought up Epstein before, I thought of Diddy and the extent to which Diddy is being swept under the rug.

Because the Diddy scandal should be far bigger news.

Because it's the culture of the music industry, for crying out loud.

That.

Absolutely.

Someone like Kurt Cobain, he would just want to bail, right?

Because he would just, like, fuck, I don't want to be part of this mess.

There was.

I do really enjoy talking to you because I have three or four threads every time, and I can barely hold onto one because it ends up being so interesting.

Oh, now I remember.

Thank you.

Okay, so going back to my point about, you know, making sure that you're not a threat, to be honest and clear, it's deceptive.

You are still a threat, my friend.

That is exactly why they react to you.

I'm suggesting that in disarming and making it clear that you're not a threat, you.

You are actually being a little duplicitous.

You're being authentic in that you actually don't mean them harm.

But you are a threat because weirdos are a threat.

Right?

Because it is a system of conformity.

It is a system of compliance, of obedience.

That is the only way they've gotten this far.

And you are inherently disobedient.

You have the curse of thinking for yourself, which is a curse because it does not lead to a lot of happiness on its own.

It requires a lot of work and a lot of cooperation to turn those insights, especially those future insights, into something that doesn't drive you towards depression and addiction.

But you seem to be handling it pretty good.

So more power to you.

And you and I will be continuing this conversation at some point in the future.

Yeah, I was excited on your podcast, which I never know to the point of spontaneity.

I never know what I'm going to say before I say it.

And every day I wake up in a different mood, and I like to follow that mood to your earlier point, I have crazy dreams, so it very much depends upon the dreams that I have.

But one of the real unexpected sides of becoming a farmer is that with livestock, there is dead stock.

And, oh, boy, is there a lot of dead stock.

Interestingly enough, in the agricultural industry, the dead stock part of the business is heavily neglected and potentially quite lucrative, partly because it's so neglected, but mostly because no one wants to deal with death.

And the thing about animals is where maybe people organize rituals of death and understanding of death around humans, but rarely do they do it around animals.

And I would argue that for a lot of people, especially women, especially farmers, they're way more connected to their animals than they are humans.

And the death of those animals are far more impactful on their lives and their emotions and their psyche than any human.

So that's something I would like to talk about on Coffin Talk, which is your podcast.

But before we conclude on our future segment and segue to our shout outs, what would you again, within your inherent foresight capabilities, what would you advise when it comes to Canadians anticipating a future within America?

How would you advise us to prepare for that?

And I'll contextualize this by affirming something I think you did say and maybe you didn't, maybe I misheard you.

But I kind of feel the old world is gone, that we find ourselves now in a different world.

And a lot of people are still upset, are still disoriented, are still discombobulated, are still in denial, are not really addressing this world that we now live in.

With that as an aside, what advice do you have?

Canadians who may or may not, I think may are going to be part of the same.

What is it?

United States of North America.

I don't know what it's going to end up being called, but what advice do you have on our future friend?

It's really good question and I want to make it relatable.

Last year I Edmonton Oilers to win the Stanley cup because no Canadian team has won, I think since 1994.

And the reason I was rooting for that is because I've always liked Canada.

No one is like me.

There's not a lot of us.

I think John Candy is the last famous person to like you guys.

He made a movie making fun of how much he likes you.

We love John Candy.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And you guys have.

We have to honor.

But please go on.

Yeah.

When you guys cross over into our culture after you.

But then when we find out you're Canadian, we like change our acceptance of you and it's a phenomenon.

So I would say first of all, adjust to that, that you won't be Americans, you'll be Hawaiians, Alaskans.

Like, we don't really embrace you.

California even is like a little out there still.

And it's, it's been in the union for almost 100 something years.

Arizona entered the union, I think, or no longer that.

But anyway, my point is, so don't expect acceptance, expect ridicule, extreme mockery of your accent.

Stop being so nice.

Don't apologize.

And then if there's a real like movement against you, like hiring practices, I would like practice your American voices.

Like we do care.

And then on the last note, I would say if you want to know what it's like to live in America, the closest proximity would be like downtown Toronto or part of Vancouver.

So like there's one section of Vancouver with a lot of junkies that's like going to be your most California experience.

Like just the homeless spill, but they're still even nicer than ours.

So you just, you know, a little.

And then the downtown Toronto has the carelessness of rich people.

Like, it's hard to find that all over America.

But if you're in downtown Toronto, you can kind of get snippets of it.

And Toronto has real racism, like America, like real overt, not covert.

So I mean, actually all of Canada has that.

You know, it's, it's part of our veneer that we don't.

But you know, outside of Toronto, here in Ontario, again, this is where I was talking about maga, right.

Like it can get hard and hard fast.

Although to your point, when I do travel in the States, the few times that I have instinctively said, oh, I'm sorry, it has not been the right choice.

So I am very conscious of, you know, you can't do that shit.

So all good advice, very good advice.

And it really brings us to the last segment that we have on every Meta Views, which is our shout outs, you know, partly because we're here on the Internet and we like to encourage our guests the same way that we asked your perspective on the news and on the future.

You know, is there anyone that you follow on the Internet that you know a creator, celebrity, revolutionary, a dirtbag that you think we should know about?

And I have made the mistake of not specifying one or two because I have had previous guests who like, they're all worked up after a conversation and then they list 100 people and we don't have that attention span.

So one or two folks that you'd like to give a shout out to?

Sure.

One is a big, big name, but I'm not sure how big he is in Canada.

And I think he's the only big name I still trust.

And his name is Bill Burr.

He's a comedian from Boston, and he shares 99% of my opinions.

And yet he's mainstream, and he's lauded and worshiped by people.

His podcast is what I'm recommending.

It comes out once or twice a week, and you'll instantly know if you like it or not.

But the reason I love him is he's admits he's an addict.

He admits that he cares way too much about sports, and he admits that everyone who's rich is in charge.

And he talks about all three all the time, but he relates it with intelligence.

And he also talks a lot about, like, he wishes he'd done shrooms when he was younger because he would have, like, dealt with his problems.

So he's like, just, there's no one like him.

And he'll.

My favorite episode ever of his.

I'll never understand the answer.

I'll never know the answer.

He.

He comes on and he was just uncharacteristically depressed, which is saying something, because he's a depressed, angry man.

And he said, last night, I was at a party for my wife.

It was with the most evil people in the world.

I can't even mention anything more than it, because if anyone who's there hears that I said this, it will affect my wife and my family and me.

But I just want you to know that there's powers that be, and even I can't ever get away from them.

And my entire career depends on pretending that I don't despise these people.

I'm pretty sure he was talking about P.

Diddy.

I really, like, this was, like, about a year, a year and a half ago, but he.

The.

He was so sad and blase about it.

Like, he wasn't, like, emotional.

And it was one of the weirdest moments in my life because my dream was always to be the next Kurt Cobain.

As a kid, I picked up a guitar when I first heard Smells Like Teen Spirit, and I was, like, ascending to that level.

Not, like, realistically or unrealistically, but my ego was in it.

Like, for sure.

I was just on it.

And I started a band, and we were making good progress, and then something went awry.

But I think I thanked my lucky stars every day since I made the decision not to, like, make that my goal in life, because I think it would be humiliating and disparaging beyond belief to know that about my favorite thing, which is entertainment, because I just love being entertained.

So that's my first one, and then a quick second one just because I Feel like he is also a dissonant voice in a popular world.

So both these people are immensely popular, but that's why I'm recommending them.

Stavros Halkius.

He's an overweight comedian from America and he is a super, super liberal but he's also rich now and so he talks a lot about what it's like to be rich and hate.

Like he grew up super poor and so it's like very interesting to listen to him talk about it.

He's a comedian, so he says it with like jokes and humor and his show is a call in show where people ask for help.

But just trust me, if you.

We didn't talk about it enough and we can talk about it later and I can't wait to have you on Coffin Talk.

But there's something weird about.

I said it as a throwaway at the beginning but like, why is it not okay for a doctor to be rich if the cost is them telling a young person, sorry, I'm not going to do that surgery, you don't have enough money.

But why is it okay for P.

Diddy to be that rich?

Why is it okay for like we give weird passes and that guy Stavros.

Talks about it like well, and, and to your point.

And here I'm going to start the outro music.

I'd love to have you back on Meta Views.

You, you have I think the link to my calendar.

My callin's Lee.

So by all means go pick a date because today we were really talking about the death of the future.

But what I would really like to do and on yours on Coffin Talk, we will talk about death.

But what I'd love to have you back on Meta Views to talk about is class.

Right?

And really get into class both class in America, class in Canada, class in the UK where it's a completely different thing.

And then to get into the consequence of that because we clearly both like to kibbitz and have fun and make jokes.

So if you're up for it, why don't we do class as our part two because that's something clearly you've been thinking about.

It's something that I love talking about.

So does that sound good?

You up for that?

Oh my God, yes.

I will like literally hop on.

Right on.

So in our closing moments, where can our audience learn more about you?

Give it.

Give us your plugs.

Yeah.

Everything I do is available at mikeyop.com I k e y com and the older this gets.

But just if you like my shit and if you don't.

I mean, yeah, there's so much out there now.

I love your show, Jesse.

You're awesome.

Right on.

Oh, thank Mike.

This was way better than I thought.

I usually, Mike, have a up and down like I have a good episode, then a not so good episode.

I had a great episode yesterday and we kicked ass in this episode.

I, I think we are currently running as the longest meta views episode, at least in our current iteration.

So pretty major accomplishment.

My bladder is full and my back teeth are singing anchors away.

So you can find meta views on all the social, we're on all the podcast networks and of course on YouTube.

And we'll be back soon.

Probably not with an episode as good as this one, but we'll try.

So, yeah, see you soon.

And thanks again.