1 00:00:07,357 --> 00:00:11,047 Eddie: Welcome to Episode 11 of the WebJoy podcast. 2 00:00:11,693 --> 00:00:12,683 I'm your host, Eddie. 3 00:00:13,073 --> 00:00:17,183 In this podcast, we interview guests about their origin story and what 4 00:00:17,183 --> 00:00:21,143 makes them excited and joyful to be part of the tech community. 5 00:00:21,593 --> 00:00:23,303 I hope you enjoy today's episode. 6 00:00:23,573 --> 00:00:27,273 "The Rejections are Flowing In" with Kathryn Grayson Nanz. 7 00:00:27,771 --> 00:00:28,521 Hey, Kathryn. 8 00:00:28,581 --> 00:00:30,171 Thanks for joining us today. 9 00:00:30,591 --> 00:00:34,501 I am very excited to have you on, particularly, there's been a lot of 10 00:00:34,506 --> 00:00:37,641 different people on the podcast, but you're the first person that- okay. 11 00:00:37,641 --> 00:00:40,221 I don't actually know in real life, cuz we've never actually met real 12 00:00:40,221 --> 00:00:44,391 life, but we have been had meetings. 13 00:00:44,496 --> 00:00:44,916 Kathryn: Yeah. 14 00:00:45,081 --> 00:00:45,801 Eddie: I know. 15 00:00:47,481 --> 00:00:50,451 It feels like I know you in person, even though I don't. 16 00:00:50,501 --> 00:00:54,671 Kathryn: I mean, we worked together for over a year, something like that, about a 17 00:00:54,671 --> 00:00:59,231 year and yeah, it just so happened to be right at the beginning at the height of 18 00:00:59,231 --> 00:01:01,421 the pandemic when no one was traveling. 19 00:01:01,421 --> 00:01:05,821 And so there were no in person work meetings or work retreats or anything. 20 00:01:06,241 --> 00:01:10,131 It's such a strange thought that yeah we never have actually been in the same room. 21 00:01:11,421 --> 00:01:11,481 Eddie: Yeah. 22 00:01:11,901 --> 00:01:13,011 Yeah, exactly. 23 00:01:13,061 --> 00:01:16,451 we had one person come on the team, right before you, that literally 24 00:01:16,501 --> 00:01:18,121 was right as the pandemic hit. 25 00:01:18,181 --> 00:01:21,611 And so they were the first person to not actually fly out and 26 00:01:21,666 --> 00:01:22,986 meet me and go to the office. 27 00:01:22,986 --> 00:01:24,336 And then you were the second. 28 00:01:24,366 --> 00:01:25,856 So yeah, it was sad. 29 00:01:26,696 --> 00:01:27,116 Yeah. 30 00:01:27,146 --> 00:01:29,336 Well that's okay. 31 00:01:30,911 --> 00:01:32,861 Kathryn: I feel certain that at some point our paths will 32 00:01:32,861 --> 00:01:34,781 cross . I'm not too worried. 33 00:01:35,186 --> 00:01:36,386 Eddie: No, that is for sure. 34 00:01:37,196 --> 00:01:42,246 Yeah, so we worked together at ThreatConnect and got to enjoy working 35 00:01:42,251 --> 00:01:47,576 with each other and chatting, I know you, but all of our wonderful audience 36 00:01:47,576 --> 00:01:52,406 doesn't so how about you let them know who you are, what you do, where you 37 00:01:52,406 --> 00:01:54,656 work, you know, just a brief intro. 38 00:01:55,556 --> 00:01:56,546 Kathryn: Yeah, absolutely. 39 00:01:56,616 --> 00:01:58,186 My name is Kathryn Grayson Nanz. 40 00:01:58,506 --> 00:02:04,046 I am now the developer relations person for Kendo React at Progress. 41 00:02:04,546 --> 00:02:10,096 I'm a front-end engineer, UI designer, dabbled in a little bit of all of 42 00:02:10,096 --> 00:02:15,176 that kind of front-end-y stuff before moving over into dev rel and dev 43 00:02:15,196 --> 00:02:18,016 advocacy been really happy doing that. 44 00:02:18,806 --> 00:02:19,436 Eddie: Awesome. 45 00:02:19,536 --> 00:02:22,956 Let's see a short version of how you got involved in tech. 46 00:02:22,956 --> 00:02:24,725 Cause you've done a lot of movement. 47 00:02:24,806 --> 00:02:26,246 Kathryn: I wandered around. 48 00:02:26,336 --> 00:02:26,666 Yeah. 49 00:02:28,058 --> 00:02:28,778 it was a journey. 50 00:02:28,778 --> 00:02:28,958 Yeah. 51 00:02:30,551 --> 00:02:32,111 Eddie: Tell us what your journey's been like. 52 00:02:32,158 --> 00:02:32,458 Kathryn: Yeah. 53 00:02:32,458 --> 00:02:37,278 I actually started off thinking that I was going to be working in graphic design. 54 00:02:37,328 --> 00:02:38,678 That was what I went to school for. 55 00:02:38,798 --> 00:02:40,298 Got a fine arts degree. 56 00:02:40,738 --> 00:02:45,063 And in a couple years after that, working for Ad Agencies, mostly kind of bopping 57 00:02:45,063 --> 00:02:50,578 around and then it was becoming more and more common for graphic designers to 58 00:02:50,578 --> 00:02:53,188 also be expected to do some web design. 59 00:02:53,238 --> 00:02:55,668 It was one of those things where I feel like it was right on the cusp for it. 60 00:02:55,668 --> 00:03:00,468 I had to take like one class in web design to graduate and it was very much 61 00:03:00,468 --> 00:03:02,858 done begrudgingly by my professors. 62 00:03:04,518 --> 00:03:06,343 You know, like they say, we have to teach you this now, but 63 00:03:06,343 --> 00:03:07,423 like whatever kind of thing. 64 00:03:07,523 --> 00:03:11,333 But then working, it was like, oh, this is actually a lot of fun. 65 00:03:11,443 --> 00:03:12,523 I'm actually enjoying this. 66 00:03:12,703 --> 00:03:16,783 I dabbled a little bit, took a Java class in high school and stuff and had 67 00:03:16,833 --> 00:03:21,373 made my own websites and customized my MySpace page and whatever . And so 68 00:03:22,033 --> 00:03:26,608 having just enough HTML and CSS to be dangerous meant that I ended up getting 69 00:03:26,608 --> 00:03:29,848 put on a bunch of web design projects. 70 00:03:29,948 --> 00:03:32,648 Just cuz I knew what people were talking about and the more of them I 71 00:03:32,648 --> 00:03:35,078 did, the more I was like, this is fun. 72 00:03:35,168 --> 00:03:36,638 This is really fun. 73 00:03:38,928 --> 00:03:39,888 I kinda wandered. 74 00:03:39,988 --> 00:03:46,408 Graphic design into web design, into web development, into UI design and 75 00:03:46,408 --> 00:03:51,418 development and app development and front end engineering specifically 76 00:03:52,348 --> 00:03:54,063 and one thing led to another. 77 00:03:54,153 --> 00:03:59,973 I did HTML email development for a minute I just kept trying stuff to 78 00:03:59,973 --> 00:04:05,133 see what was fun and what stuck and bounced around between jobs for a 79 00:04:05,133 --> 00:04:09,658 bit and just tried things out and I was feeling settled as a front-end 80 00:04:09,658 --> 00:04:12,971 engineer, when someone at progress reached out to me and was like, you 81 00:04:12,971 --> 00:04:15,461 ever thought about developer relations? 82 00:04:15,461 --> 00:04:18,752 I no, but tell me more. 83 00:04:22,292 --> 00:04:22,682 Eddie: Yeah. 84 00:04:22,682 --> 00:04:28,652 So what you're saying is that programming like slowly drew you 85 00:04:28,657 --> 00:04:33,782 in and we took you over to the dark side and then devel stole you. 86 00:04:34,352 --> 00:04:35,132 Kathryn: It's been interesting. 87 00:04:35,162 --> 00:04:37,712 Cause that was one of the things I was really like worried about. 88 00:04:37,712 --> 00:04:40,892 I remember asking like a thousand times during the interview process 89 00:04:40,892 --> 00:04:42,297 I don't wanna forget how to code. 90 00:04:42,297 --> 00:04:43,717 I don't wanna lose my skillset. 91 00:04:44,227 --> 00:04:45,307 And they were like, don't worry. 92 00:04:45,877 --> 00:04:46,957 which was true. 93 00:04:47,952 --> 00:04:52,687 I'm still coding so much doing workshops and demos and building 94 00:04:52,687 --> 00:04:55,987 out sample stuff with our product and working with our dev team. 95 00:04:56,467 --> 00:04:59,607 But I joke to everyone that it took me a long time to get used to not 96 00:04:59,612 --> 00:05:01,557 living my life in two weeks sprint 97 00:05:04,787 --> 00:05:08,177 It's just different when you're not developing a product and 98 00:05:08,177 --> 00:05:11,747 working constantly in product cycles in quite the same way. 99 00:05:12,077 --> 00:05:13,457 But yeah, still fun. 100 00:05:14,387 --> 00:05:15,777 Eddie: Probably a nice change of pace, right? 101 00:05:15,807 --> 00:05:20,127 After being in sprints and cycles for a while, to be able to, Hey, 102 00:05:20,127 --> 00:05:22,677 work on this little project and work on that little project. 103 00:05:22,757 --> 00:05:25,487 Kathryn: There was definitely a couple months of rough adjustment where I was 104 00:05:25,492 --> 00:05:27,917 like, who's assigning me JIRA tickets. 105 00:05:29,627 --> 00:05:33,947 What am I supposed do I have to assign me JIRA tickets, 106 00:05:36,437 --> 00:05:38,357 Eddie: Please tell me you don't actually use Jira. 107 00:05:38,867 --> 00:05:42,412 Kathryn: I don't use JIRA, but I do use a Kanban Board. 108 00:05:44,092 --> 00:05:48,887 To this day, my life has still lived in the like Kanban Columns. 109 00:05:49,047 --> 00:05:49,282 So do not. 110 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:53,180 Eddie: I mean, Kaban columns is fine. 111 00:05:53,180 --> 00:05:56,865 If you move to dev rel, I feel like you have earned the right to step out of 112 00:05:57,015 --> 00:06:00,015 JIRA, the all encompassing eye of JIRA. 113 00:06:01,180 --> 00:06:04,130 Kathryn: I do technically have an account so that I can look at stuff 114 00:06:04,130 --> 00:06:05,510 that our dev team is working on. 115 00:06:05,510 --> 00:06:08,925 Cause they work in Jira every once in a blue moon I'll pop in and I'm 116 00:06:08,925 --> 00:06:11,175 like, oh yeah, didn't miss that. 117 00:06:11,775 --> 00:06:12,465 I'm good. 118 00:06:12,705 --> 00:06:14,205 I live mostly out of notion now 119 00:06:15,435 --> 00:06:15,915 Eddie: Nice. 120 00:06:16,035 --> 00:06:17,925 Kathryn: so you get my new, like home base. 121 00:06:19,925 --> 00:06:21,405 Eddie: Well see, we probably should have made the topic 122 00:06:21,405 --> 00:06:22,485 about Notion, but that's okay. 123 00:06:22,485 --> 00:06:24,195 We're, we're already in this thing. 124 00:06:24,245 --> 00:06:30,685 But because you We're trying to subvert into using notion 125 00:06:30,685 --> 00:06:32,575 at our last job together. 126 00:06:32,575 --> 00:06:33,749 Kathryn: I'm a big notion of fan 127 00:06:34,580 --> 00:06:36,960 Eddie: So I, I'm not surprised that you are in Notion 128 00:06:37,570 --> 00:06:38,060 Kathryn: Yes. 129 00:06:38,190 --> 00:06:39,140 (laughing). 130 00:06:39,220 --> 00:06:42,710 I'm getting to be a hardcore fan. 131 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:45,750 Eddie: I can appreciate it. 132 00:06:45,750 --> 00:06:49,470 I've tried bits and pieces of it here and there, but I put stuff 133 00:06:49,475 --> 00:06:52,770 in there and then I never go back to it much like my to-do app. 134 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:55,060 So it just kind of sits and gets dusty. 135 00:06:56,125 --> 00:07:00,445 Kathryn: Everyone's gotta find something, some process that works for them. 136 00:07:00,565 --> 00:07:03,349 And I don't think it's ever gonna be the same for two people, which 137 00:07:03,349 --> 00:07:04,879 is probably why everyone hates Jira. 138 00:07:07,264 --> 00:07:07,984 Eddie: That's true. 139 00:07:07,989 --> 00:07:11,554 Everyone is different and Jira is trying to be one thing to all 140 00:07:11,554 --> 00:07:13,324 people and that's gonna, Yeah. 141 00:07:14,764 --> 00:07:15,184 Yeah. 142 00:07:15,694 --> 00:07:16,324 Awesome. 143 00:07:16,324 --> 00:07:19,444 Well, alas, we aren't talking about Notion today. 144 00:07:19,814 --> 00:07:21,944 But we have some other really fun stuff to talk about. 145 00:07:22,274 --> 00:07:26,204 So, you know, this podcast is all about what brings us joy. 146 00:07:26,209 --> 00:07:29,984 And so you've been doing some stuff recently that brings you joy. 147 00:07:30,094 --> 00:07:30,694 Kathryn: Yeah. 148 00:07:30,794 --> 00:07:33,284 I try to think about it when you first posed that question to me. 149 00:07:33,284 --> 00:07:34,064 I really liked. 150 00:07:34,329 --> 00:07:37,469 I feel like it's something that we don't talk about enough in tech it's 151 00:07:37,469 --> 00:07:41,099 so easy to like gripe or complain about, whatever's not working for us. 152 00:07:41,489 --> 00:07:44,279 The idea of like, what are you doing that you've been really into recently? 153 00:07:44,279 --> 00:07:46,499 It is like, yeah, what am I doing? 154 00:07:47,849 --> 00:07:50,699 and after a little bit of thought for me, the answer was definitely 155 00:07:50,729 --> 00:07:53,969 getting back to tech conferences and speaking at conferences. 156 00:07:54,539 --> 00:07:57,669 That was something that I have always dabbled in. 157 00:07:57,739 --> 00:08:02,149 but back before I was a developer advocate, it was something that I had to 158 00:08:02,269 --> 00:08:04,889 fit in outside of my, nine to five job. 159 00:08:04,889 --> 00:08:06,704 And you wanna figure out the work life balance. 160 00:08:06,704 --> 00:08:07,694 I enjoyed doing it. 161 00:08:07,694 --> 00:08:10,124 I liked the ways that it helped my career. 162 00:08:10,129 --> 00:08:12,434 I enjoyed the experience of being at conferences. 163 00:08:12,974 --> 00:08:18,644 But also they were a lot of work and so do 1, maybe, 2 conferences a year. 164 00:08:19,034 --> 00:08:24,224 Now it is 1, maybe 2, conferences a month, it feels like 165 00:08:26,654 --> 00:08:30,674 And it's been really interesting to approach that with the new mentality 166 00:08:30,704 --> 00:08:34,834 that's part of my job and get to dedicate a bunch of time to working 167 00:08:34,834 --> 00:08:38,704 on talks and writing things and getting to attend so many conferences. 168 00:08:39,194 --> 00:08:39,854 Especially. 169 00:08:39,914 --> 00:08:44,984 I don't wanna say post pandemic, cuz we're not really post pandemic, post 170 00:08:45,074 --> 00:08:49,124 the height of the pandemic with things opening back up a little bit, in person 171 00:08:49,124 --> 00:08:52,624 conferences have been back and it's been a real joy to get to be in the 172 00:08:52,624 --> 00:08:55,984 same room with other folks and to feel that energy and make those connections. 173 00:08:56,084 --> 00:08:59,274 So that's really been something that's been lighting me up recently. 174 00:09:00,759 --> 00:09:01,659 Eddie: That's awesome. 175 00:09:01,689 --> 00:09:02,259 Yeah. 176 00:09:02,319 --> 00:09:05,829 Particularly, I think you went to React Miami, right? 177 00:09:05,929 --> 00:09:06,289 Kathryn: Yep. 178 00:09:06,709 --> 00:09:10,989 That was my last in person one that I did, gosh, I think just 179 00:09:11,109 --> 00:09:13,179 three or four weeks ago, maybe. 180 00:09:13,279 --> 00:09:14,479 And that was a blast. 181 00:09:14,539 --> 00:09:15,979 That was fantastic. 182 00:09:17,449 --> 00:09:20,449 Eddie: I saw all the photos on Twitter that people were posting. 183 00:09:20,449 --> 00:09:22,459 And I was like, ah, that looks so fun. 184 00:09:22,814 --> 00:09:25,289 Kathryn: It was just genuinely they were just having a great time. 185 00:09:25,439 --> 00:09:26,699 It was so fun. 186 00:09:26,759 --> 00:09:28,829 It was one of the most fun conferences that I've done. 187 00:09:28,889 --> 00:09:32,509 And it was great to get to run away to Miami while it was still a little bit 188 00:09:32,509 --> 00:09:34,719 cold back home and be like, all right. 189 00:09:35,409 --> 00:09:36,129 This is work. 190 00:09:36,219 --> 00:09:40,719 I get to hang out here, under the Palm trees and talking about React, 191 00:09:40,769 --> 00:09:42,199 all right, I can get used to this. 192 00:09:42,719 --> 00:09:43,359 I can see that. 193 00:09:45,979 --> 00:09:47,329 I've gotten to do a few. 194 00:09:47,929 --> 00:09:53,039 I was in Knoxville for code stock a couple of weeks before that , I've 195 00:09:53,039 --> 00:09:55,229 done a few online conferences. 196 00:09:55,229 --> 00:10:00,279 I've got code land coming up with, Forem Dev.To and, Code Newbies. 197 00:10:00,339 --> 00:10:02,679 That'll be an online one that I'm still very hyped about. 198 00:10:03,069 --> 00:10:04,269 I'll be in St. 199 00:10:04,379 --> 00:10:09,706 Louis for Dev Up in, uh, two, three weeks. 200 00:10:09,706 --> 00:10:10,726 That's sooner than I thought. 201 00:10:10,771 --> 00:10:11,251 Eddie: Wow. 202 00:10:12,776 --> 00:10:18,386 Kathryn: Then I'll get to go React Next in Tel Aviv at the end of June, which is like 203 00:10:18,386 --> 00:10:19,246 Eddie: That's exciting 204 00:10:19,246 --> 00:10:19,436 Kathryn: what? 205 00:10:19,926 --> 00:10:20,726 That's insane. 206 00:10:22,601 --> 00:10:26,541 So it's definitely been, it's been something that I very much thrown 207 00:10:26,541 --> 00:10:31,301 myself into this conference season and it's been just so much fun. 208 00:10:34,151 --> 00:10:37,991 Eddie: What do you feel like you've missed most about conferences? 209 00:10:37,991 --> 00:10:38,171 Right? 210 00:10:38,171 --> 00:10:41,371 There was definitely a lull, during the height of the pandemic. 211 00:10:41,661 --> 00:10:43,891 And there was some stuff online. 212 00:10:44,471 --> 00:10:49,331 I can't remember if you did a lot of them online or not. 213 00:10:49,381 --> 00:10:51,151 Kathryn: Yeah, there were definitely a couple, I did 214 00:10:51,561 --> 00:10:54,841 ByteConf React sometime in 2020. 215 00:10:55,461 --> 00:11:01,084 I did one of the WomenWhoCode conferences , I believe Connect Reimagine, and 216 00:11:01,084 --> 00:11:05,204 then more recently have done, the Women in Tech Summit and did Web 217 00:11:05,204 --> 00:11:07,664 Directions Hover the CSS conference. 218 00:11:08,264 --> 00:11:09,794 And those are they're great. 219 00:11:09,794 --> 00:11:10,904 I think there's honestly. 220 00:11:11,229 --> 00:11:15,399 So much good to be said for online conferences, especially in terms of, 221 00:11:15,949 --> 00:11:20,599 accessibility and allowing people to attend, who might not have previously 222 00:11:20,899 --> 00:11:24,559 been able to attend a conference in person cause in person has a lot 223 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:29,329 of barriers in terms of travel and childcare and financial obligations. 224 00:11:29,329 --> 00:11:34,559 And it can be really hard to set aside what three, four days in the middle of 225 00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:38,289 a week to, run off and do a conference. 226 00:11:38,439 --> 00:11:43,719 I'm glad that we've seen a rise in online conferences and at the same time, 227 00:11:44,199 --> 00:11:47,979 it's very hard to replicate the energy of a room full of people who are all 228 00:11:48,129 --> 00:11:49,839 really excited about the same thing. 229 00:11:50,979 --> 00:11:53,979 so I kind of waffle back and forth. 230 00:11:53,979 --> 00:11:54,759 I think both are good. 231 00:11:54,759 --> 00:11:55,139 I think both. 232 00:11:55,884 --> 00:11:58,584 Kinda serve different purposes and have different goals. 233 00:11:58,684 --> 00:12:03,234 And I enjoy doing both, but for me, I think especially after the 234 00:12:03,234 --> 00:12:08,384 extended isolation of COVID times, it's been especially gratifying 235 00:12:08,444 --> 00:12:10,569 to be back in a room with people., 236 00:12:10,569 --> 00:12:17,499 Eddie: (laughing) yeah, I remember, like when I got a job working with a 237 00:12:17,504 --> 00:12:22,169 government contractor they had in the budget, to be able to send a couple 238 00:12:22,169 --> 00:12:23,969 people to a conference every year. 239 00:12:24,049 --> 00:12:25,369 I remember getting to go. 240 00:12:25,369 --> 00:12:32,019 I was in DC area and Esri, the geospatial company, they're out in San Diego. 241 00:12:32,019 --> 00:12:33,969 So they had the conference in Palm Springs. 242 00:12:34,239 --> 00:12:38,349 And so in February, I got to leave DC where it was cold and 243 00:12:38,579 --> 00:12:42,849 horrible and go to Palm Springs where it was warm and enjoyable. 244 00:12:42,849 --> 00:12:44,039 And I remember cuz it. 245 00:12:45,164 --> 00:12:48,584 Government related and stuff the car rental is covered 246 00:12:48,584 --> 00:12:49,544 and the hotel is covered. 247 00:12:49,584 --> 00:12:50,844 I remember that was the feeling. 248 00:12:50,849 --> 00:12:52,404 I feel like I hadn't made it. 249 00:12:52,404 --> 00:12:53,154 I was in tech. 250 00:12:53,154 --> 00:12:56,844 I was like, here I am at this cool conference in a warm sunny place. 251 00:12:57,144 --> 00:12:57,984 Having fun. 252 00:12:57,984 --> 00:12:58,614 This is awesome. 253 00:12:59,874 --> 00:13:00,654 Kathryn: Absolutely. 254 00:13:00,924 --> 00:13:01,314 Oh yeah. 255 00:13:01,314 --> 00:13:02,364 My husband keeps joking. 256 00:13:02,364 --> 00:13:05,214 He's like, when are you gonna start applying to more conferences in Hawaii? 257 00:13:06,054 --> 00:13:09,744 like, can you try to apply to a conference in, in Paris? 258 00:13:11,964 --> 00:13:12,654 all right, babe. 259 00:13:12,654 --> 00:13:13,224 I'll work on it. 260 00:13:14,634 --> 00:13:17,034 Eddie: JS Conf Hawaii does exist. 261 00:13:17,084 --> 00:13:18,074 Kathryn: I would love to go. 262 00:13:18,794 --> 00:13:19,664 I'll put that out there. 263 00:13:19,724 --> 00:13:22,274 I have applied before and it's not worked out. 264 00:13:22,724 --> 00:13:24,104 I'll manifest it right here. 265 00:13:24,104 --> 00:13:24,284 I would 266 00:13:24,554 --> 00:13:24,754 Eddie: that's 267 00:13:24,754 --> 00:13:24,874 Kathryn: to 268 00:13:26,764 --> 00:13:27,634 Eddie: That's right. 269 00:13:30,324 --> 00:13:31,274 Yeah, for sure. 270 00:13:31,324 --> 00:13:38,544 Well and in that topic, for people who might be interested in speaking 271 00:13:38,544 --> 00:13:40,279 at conferences it can be intimidating. 272 00:13:40,329 --> 00:13:44,409 I think right before we get into that it's good to call out and say, 273 00:13:44,409 --> 00:13:46,749 Hey, you applied to JS Conf Hawaii. 274 00:13:46,749 --> 00:13:48,369 I'm sure you've applied to other ones. 275 00:13:48,804 --> 00:13:50,394 Kathryn: Oh, I get rejected all the time. 276 00:13:51,324 --> 00:13:51,624 yeah, yeah. 277 00:13:51,624 --> 00:13:55,319 That's something that I think almost hit home more once applying to 278 00:13:55,319 --> 00:13:58,769 conferences and speaking at conferences became part of my full time job was 279 00:13:59,159 --> 00:14:03,779 the reality of I literally can spend almost as much time as I want on this. 280 00:14:03,829 --> 00:14:06,274 I have the resources thanks to my company. 281 00:14:06,744 --> 00:14:08,004 And I still get declined. 282 00:14:08,009 --> 00:14:10,004 I would say probably. 283 00:14:10,794 --> 00:14:11,994 60% of the time. 284 00:14:12,084 --> 00:14:14,264 I'm trying to think what the numbers actually are. 285 00:14:14,269 --> 00:14:15,334 I do keep track of it. 286 00:14:16,144 --> 00:14:20,044 so, uh, I don't know if that's a good or bad thing for me mentally. 287 00:14:20,344 --> 00:14:23,584 But I made a little in notion I have a little table of everything that 288 00:14:23,584 --> 00:14:25,144 I've applied to and where it is. 289 00:14:25,144 --> 00:14:29,034 And is it virtual or is it in person and how long are the session things just so 290 00:14:29,044 --> 00:14:30,574 I can keep 'em all straight in my head. 291 00:14:30,604 --> 00:14:34,294 And as part of that, I'll just mark, you know, accepted, declined, whatever. 292 00:14:34,414 --> 00:14:37,414 And I get plenty of rejections. 293 00:14:37,504 --> 00:14:40,744 Like plenty of places are thanks, but no thanks. 294 00:14:40,794 --> 00:14:46,664 I think that's totally okay honestly, cuz so much of it has nothing to do with 295 00:14:46,664 --> 00:14:49,574 a reflection of your skills or anything. 296 00:14:49,574 --> 00:14:53,504 They're just trying to balance a set of offerings and they're looking at 297 00:14:53,594 --> 00:14:57,764 your topic and they're looking at the general vibe and what they wanna focus 298 00:14:57,764 --> 00:15:02,144 on and what's hot this year and what they think will draw people in and 299 00:15:02,149 --> 00:15:06,134 just trying to check boxes to make sure they've got an offering that's 300 00:15:06,134 --> 00:15:08,594 balanced and interesting and on trend. 301 00:15:09,294 --> 00:15:15,064 Sometimes it's not gonna shake out in your favor and that's, uh, them's the breaks. 302 00:15:15,124 --> 00:15:15,484 I don't know. 303 00:15:16,874 --> 00:15:17,849 Eddie: Yeah, For sure. 304 00:15:18,296 --> 00:15:19,971 Kathryn: I've always kind of joked with this. 305 00:15:20,081 --> 00:15:23,716 And also with job applications, it's truly just a numbers game. 306 00:15:24,166 --> 00:15:26,986 The more you can put out, even if you're submitting the 307 00:15:26,986 --> 00:15:28,786 exact same thing everywhere. 308 00:15:28,846 --> 00:15:34,406 And I also double dip plenty, and I'll give the same talk wherever, you know, but 309 00:15:34,406 --> 00:15:38,966 I'll submit the same thing with the same description and the same all the way down. 310 00:15:39,476 --> 00:15:42,976 And some places will like it and some places won't and that's just life. 311 00:15:44,116 --> 00:15:45,866 Eddie: Yeah, that makes sense. 312 00:15:45,866 --> 00:15:50,376 And I actually did my first application for a talk or whatnot, 313 00:15:50,376 --> 00:15:54,616 submission for a talk to code land and they accepted you, but alas 314 00:15:55,886 --> 00:15:57,506 rejected me. 315 00:15:57,506 --> 00:15:57,986 that's okay. 316 00:15:57,986 --> 00:15:58,711 Kathryn: one was tight. 317 00:15:58,766 --> 00:16:02,336 I didn't realize until I got the email, what a small speaker set that was, 318 00:16:02,336 --> 00:16:09,701 I think there's only like, 13 or 15 talks, which like, again, for a lot 319 00:16:09,701 --> 00:16:13,091 of conferences will be really big and have like multiple tracks and might 320 00:16:13,091 --> 00:16:15,551 have, you know, 30 or 40 speakers. 321 00:16:15,581 --> 00:16:20,161 And so to see that one was oh yeah, of course the numbers are 322 00:16:20,161 --> 00:16:21,871 not in anyone's favorite there 323 00:16:23,911 --> 00:16:24,481 . Eddie: Yep. 324 00:16:25,001 --> 00:16:25,221 So. 325 00:16:25,921 --> 00:16:26,821 Put yourself out there. 326 00:16:26,821 --> 00:16:28,971 If you're interested in speaking at conferences. 327 00:16:29,021 --> 00:16:30,281 I got rejected my first time. 328 00:16:30,311 --> 00:16:30,971 It's okay. 329 00:16:31,331 --> 00:16:33,311 I'm gonna take that and throw it to another. 330 00:16:34,171 --> 00:16:37,541 And Kathryn gets rejected plenty 60%. 331 00:16:37,661 --> 00:16:38,141 So 332 00:16:38,681 --> 00:16:39,011 Kathryn: Yeah. 333 00:16:39,881 --> 00:16:45,981 I guess it's probably higher so it probably should have been like 65 or 70, 334 00:16:46,011 --> 00:16:48,351 Eddie: the longer the podcast goes on the higher than number 335 00:16:48,411 --> 00:16:51,711 Kathryn: It's just gonna keep getting the, the rejections are flowing in as we speak 336 00:16:54,861 --> 00:16:58,661 but Yeah, I think, especially when you're new and you're still figuring out there's 337 00:16:58,661 --> 00:17:03,341 a little bit of like salesmanship to it too, in terms of framing, what you've 338 00:17:03,341 --> 00:17:05,681 got and being confident in your offering. 339 00:17:05,681 --> 00:17:08,811 And especially if you've got other work, if there's stuff you can 340 00:17:08,811 --> 00:17:12,021 point to and be like, here are some other talks I've given, here's some 341 00:17:12,021 --> 00:17:15,666 blog posts, I've written, those things all help your chances too. 342 00:17:15,696 --> 00:17:19,026 Cause it lets the organizers see a little bit of who you are and 343 00:17:19,026 --> 00:17:20,316 how you speak and how you write. 344 00:17:20,806 --> 00:17:26,316 Kinda how you approach things and it's never a bad thing to be able to point them 345 00:17:26,316 --> 00:17:28,446 to things and be like, here's my vibe. 346 00:17:29,246 --> 00:17:30,716 See if I make the vibe check. 347 00:17:32,756 --> 00:17:33,506 Eddie: That's good. 348 00:17:34,136 --> 00:17:38,116 Well, as we wrap up today, I always like to say as a community, 349 00:17:38,116 --> 00:17:39,766 we love to support each other. 350 00:17:39,766 --> 00:17:43,151 And so just wanted to see what are you working on? 351 00:17:43,156 --> 00:17:46,151 What would you like to throw out there for the community to check out? 352 00:17:46,201 --> 00:17:46,441 Kathryn: Yeah. 353 00:17:46,446 --> 00:17:52,721 I mean, I gotta give props to Kendo React, which is obviously the component 354 00:17:52,721 --> 00:17:58,167 library that I am the Dev Rel for, but we just had two released and we've got 355 00:17:58,167 --> 00:18:02,397 some great new stuff in there and it's honestly just a really great, I know. 356 00:18:02,397 --> 00:18:03,777 You kind of go, yeah, yeah, sure. 357 00:18:03,807 --> 00:18:08,557 They pay you to say that and yeah to an extent, but also I was really 358 00:18:08,557 --> 00:18:12,487 hesitant about third party component libraries before I worked here. 359 00:18:12,487 --> 00:18:16,297 And Eddie can vouch because I was building one from the ground up at 360 00:18:16,487 --> 00:18:19,177 ThreatConnect to basically avoid. 361 00:18:19,687 --> 00:18:22,237 That was what I was doing before. 362 00:18:22,337 --> 00:18:23,837 I worked at Progress. 363 00:18:23,887 --> 00:18:28,172 And I was really hesitant cuz I had such frustration dealing with those 364 00:18:28,177 --> 00:18:31,022 kind of third party libraries and trying to like design around them, 365 00:18:31,027 --> 00:18:35,952 especially as a UI designer and working in CSS and trying to override styles. 366 00:18:36,442 --> 00:18:41,422 So they really had to sell me to come over and talk about Kendo. 367 00:18:42,432 --> 00:18:45,912 I really believe that they've done a good job of prioritizing 368 00:18:46,002 --> 00:18:49,782 the designer experience just as much as the developer experience. 369 00:18:49,902 --> 00:18:53,242 And that was what sold me, what got me on board, and what I think 370 00:18:53,242 --> 00:18:54,202 makes them really different. 371 00:18:54,412 --> 00:18:58,782 So there was my spiel, But yeah, if you check it out, you can 372 00:18:58,782 --> 00:19:02,712 go to Kendo react.com, free 30 day trial experiment with it. 373 00:19:02,712 --> 00:19:06,612 Play as much as you like, uh, at me on Twitter, ask questions. 374 00:19:06,882 --> 00:19:10,892 I'm always happy to talk Kendo with folks. 375 00:19:11,912 --> 00:19:12,322 Eddie: Awesome. 376 00:19:12,402 --> 00:19:13,542 Well, you heard it. 377 00:19:14,052 --> 00:19:19,632 They literally converted her from being anti third party libraries to actually. 378 00:19:20,502 --> 00:19:21,642 Telling people to use Kendo. 379 00:19:21,642 --> 00:19:23,862 So it must be good if they got her over. 380 00:19:23,862 --> 00:19:25,362 So check it out. 381 00:19:25,452 --> 00:19:25,453 Kathryn: folks 382 00:19:27,202 --> 00:19:28,742 Eddie: Well, thank you for joining us today, Kathryn. 383 00:19:28,742 --> 00:19:29,602 It's been so fun. 384 00:19:30,262 --> 00:19:30,592 Kathryn: Yeah. 385 00:19:30,597 --> 00:19:31,882 Thank you so much for having me. 386 00:19:31,942 --> 00:19:32,542 This was great. 387 00:19:34,322 --> 00:19:38,072 Eddie: Thanks for joining us for Episode 11: "The Rejections are 388 00:19:38,072 --> 00:19:40,982 Flowing In" with Kathryn Grayson Nanz. 389 00:19:41,574 --> 00:19:46,284 You can find out more about Kathryn on her website, kgrayson.com 390 00:19:46,584 --> 00:19:49,334 or her Twitter @KathrynGrayson. 391 00:19:50,304 --> 00:19:53,754 You can find links to everything we talked about in this episode, as 392 00:19:53,754 --> 00:19:57,414 well as a link to Kathryn's website and Twitter in the show notes. 393 00:19:58,644 --> 00:20:01,974 If you enjoyed this episode, help others discover it as well 394 00:20:02,004 --> 00:20:05,004 by rating and reviewing it in your favorite podcast directory. 395 00:20:05,334 --> 00:20:09,334 And don't forget to follow us on Twitter @WebJoyFM 396 00:20:10,494 --> 00:20:11,634 thank you for listening. 397 00:20:11,994 --> 00:20:13,434 And have a great day