00:00:06 Sana: Listen, if there's a particular question that keeps haunting a lot of organizations. I have to use that word. But then, trust me, it is. Why does the same dysfunction keep coming back? I mean, you do all the sort of things, right? I mean, you bring in the new leadership, you get on to maybe a new, um, strategy or you put in the right tools and approaches and whatnot. You do your case studies, you do your analysis and everything. I mean, a whole transformation program. And a few years later it all comes back. The same problems that are sitting in the same chair with a different name. So for today's episode of This blend, we go with this question with someone who has spent a career inside the most complex, high stakes institutional environments which are out there.

00:01:06 Sana: So you are listening to this blend listeners, I am Zenon. This is the podcast where we blend the human side of work with the real mechanics of building something that lasts long. I am, as always, and listeners, my guest is a chief procurement officer. He's a supply chain executive leadership systems architect and author of four books, including Strategic Synergy and Institutional Excellence. And let me tell you also that he has led procurement and supply chain transformation in defense, federal health care infrastructure, and complex public institutions. So let's get right into it, and let's welcome our guest, guests. Joel Clemmer, Joel, welcome to the show. And it's such an honor having you here.

00:01:54 Joel Klemmer: Thank you. It's an honor to be here.

00:01:56 Sana: Absolutely. What what what? I mean, yeah, it's it's really, really inspiring to have you, honestly, Joel. But, let's get into, the main, uh, the, the central theme of today's episode, uh, before I get more and more, uh, I've kind of fangirled. But yeah, um, I'll start with the central observation that drives your work. Um, so you say that organizations really fail because they lack talented people, ambitious strategies or good intentions. does make sense. But then, you also say they fail because of something which is structural, uh, like it's, it's something like that, you know, it's underneath. So what, what do you mean by that? Joel?

00:02:45 Joel Klemmer: Sure. I've Absolutely. Um, obviously we can all point to the, the employees or the people in our organizations that, uh, probably shouldn't be there or they don't want to be there in the first place. They're, they're working to an ends meet. Uh, they are somewhere else in life. Or maybe it has nothing to do with that. Maybe there's something going on in their life personally, or they're working on a separate goal of theirs. Maybe they're working another job or education. We just don't know. We all we all can point to those. But a lot of times we're not pointed to the individuals who are successful and that do work, that do have a type personalities, right. So I came in the federal government who, uh, you know, despite what media might say, uh, honestly, the United States federal government has some of the most intelligent. um, successful, ambitious people out there. But that doesn't mean that the federal government is effective or efficient. And so a lot of times it boils down to the systems in place. Now each size, I would say has kind of a different approach. And so, uh, in my career, I've been a founder of several businesses from small to holding companies. And so a lot of times when you first start out, you're the person doing everything. You are the marketing hat, you are the success you are, you have each of the roles. And so there the reality is, in order for you to grow, you have to let people in. You have to find the team that you trust. You have to find the individuals that are going to be, Uh, the team player. You can't be just the CEO, the CEO, the CMO, the sea level, everything, as well as, uh, the analysts. You let experts be the experts and bring those people in to your team to help grow. So, so those companies will grow and all of a sudden they have a new dilemma. Now you need multiple people in each department. And so now there is a complex reality that you now have to bring in workflows, succession plans. It's growing and it's in a much different place. And so you have to start looking at analytics and numbers and say, okay, what is each person's output? What is their worth? What is their impact? And, and really start diving in. And so a lot of times at that stage, they'll bring in consultants. Um, and there's a lot of great companies out there and they'll, they'll, they'll help drive those processes. And so it'll continue to have you grow. Once you start getting to enterprise, you're bringing in millions of dollars in advisory and consultants. At this point, you are sold that that you bring in the best and the brightest, but now you're addressing things with another form, with another process. Maybe an auditor found something. And so you add things. And so the, the entire process then becomes bureaucratic where, uh, you know, each one has a process flow and there becomes redundancy, there becomes, uh, essentially bottlenecks. Or you have such large teams, especially when you're looking at international organizations that essentially you don't know where your role stands and the system really doesn't define it. And so it's, hey, we know we're supposed to do this, but I'm going to send it up a level and they're going to send it up a level, and they're going to send it up a level. And no one really has accountability. And maybe it's in a job role, but it's not really defined. And so wherever you're at in that organization, you just have to figure out what's your reality. What is the actual reality? And so is the reality is you need to bring in more people is the reality that you need to start bringing workflows. When it comes to the federal government, they have to figure out efficiencies and effectiveness. I came in to the federal government from the private sector. Immediately, I was able to drive sixty percent efficiencies, sixty percent off what they spend millions of dollars bringing in the smartest and the brightest people to do. Well, how do you do that? Well, you look at why are we doing this exact same thing sixty times on two thousand forms. Can't we automate it? Exactly. We have the tools. We have the workflows. It's very easy. And you start doing those things and and things start streamlining. And so you really have to have map out your entire process. And it's difficult, uh, especially for someone like myself in procurement because you're dealing with every department, you're dealing with every stakeholder, every client, even external clients, but you have to map it out entirely and then just really start mapping out each of the areas. And once you have that reality, um, you don't always have to add things, right? We always have to add everything is let me add a bill, let me add a law, let me add a rule. Let me add a form. You need to start looking at what's the impact of those forms. Can we condense those into one forms? Can we automate it. And and in today's world and today's technology there should really be minimal administration, and it should really be drive by critical thinking and strategic thinking.

00:08:41 Sana: Wholeheartedly agree with you wholeheartedly. A couple of thoughts coming in my mind. Um, and I do not want to make it, political or something, but I think this is applicable across different, uh, different aspects. You know, it's like you're just putting a band aid. You are not addressing the root issue here. And, and probably, probably, you're not even acknowledging that, we do have a problem and we need to first identify the actual problem and then understand what is the best approach and design a solution, of course, with opinions and, you know, creative critical thinking and, uh, leveraging the, the best tools out there because we do have access. However, we do not even know. We do not even understand what the exact problem is. Or probably it's just there in front of us. We are not even acknowledging it.

00:09:43 Joel Klemmer: I think that is a lot of times the case. In the government, I remember I was sitting I was part of the satellite communication group, and I got invited to other senior leaders. And we're sitting down and we're discussing problems. And it was amazing to hear what their inputs were because they knew all the problems as well as solutions.

00:10:16 Sana: Mhm.

00:10:17 Joel Klemmer: But then the other question is, is where's the action? So so if you know, if you know what the problem is, find the solutions. If you know the solutions, you gotta act. You actually have to put forth an effort. And the problem is, a lot of times with larger companies, you don't want to make waves because you want that next promotion. You need that extra person. You don't need that person in your wheelhouse. And so there's a level of courage to, if you want the results.

00:10:50 Sana: Yeah. That's true. That's right. That's a good point. And also, I don't know, maybe, this question has some relevance for this, uh, conversation or not, but do you think that, how much ever you can be talented, you may have the best credentials or experience, but a bad system, it can have a lot of impact on your, you know, the potential of how your capabilities can be, used or leveraged. Is it, is it, uh, is it, uh, you know, is it credible to put that or shift that onus on the system, because, it can mention that, you know, this is the way it has been designed and we, we cannot bring any major overall here. So we have to modify ourselves, you know, as per the system build or created.

00:11:51 Joel Klemmer: That is a big part of it. It's not all of it. And so I think a lot of times we, we look for the, the easy fix. If I just focus on this, I will solve all my problems and then a new issue will occur. You have to have clear systems, clear accountability, understand who is responsible, right? You need the. You need the rules of the road. And to be able to have those left and right guardrails? So in a senior position, in a board position and a C level position, you need that strategic mindset. You need the vision, you need the direction. And then allow your directors to take that vision and really bring in the operational standpoint of this is how we're going to bring it. But then on a tactical level, you're allowing your managers to clearly define those into executable. So everybody has a role, right? So in supply chain you have five S and every single part has a place. And and you define each thing and you sort it completely. Now you can have a warehouse full of items, but you know exactly what every piece is doing and what's expected. And there should be no different in your system. And so every position should have roles, responsibility, accountability, uh, and drive that. And sometimes it's difficult, right? So if you're a smaller company, maybe the person is your cousin and or a family member and you don't really want to keep them accountable, but you, you have to divide those things into objective, clear roles and responsibilities and not make it personal. It's difficult, right? Because the process should be boring and the process should be clear cut. It should be clearly communicated, but you still shouldn't be this hard driver that we're dealing with people. So you still need to have emotional intelligence people. People have lives out there. Things happen. And so you need to have this level of, of connection, ambition for your team, ensuring that they are successful in everything they do. But then there's the left and the right, which is that's the system and you stay within the system.

00:14:21 Sana: I'm glad you brought it up. Yes. and, uh, this this reminds me of an episode. Um, it got recently released. we were talking about, uh, digital transformation, especially in tech, uh, vis a vis, you know, how AI is either perceived or, you know, it is, it is kind of this, you know, dreamt to bring, um, swift turnover of everything like two hundred percent, you know, increase in, in all the outputs. But, um, it may look good on paper, but when it comes to the execution and that too across different um departments, um, different, uh, you know, different cohorts, um, the execution is a different ballgame altogether and it doesn't only involve the tools or the, the mechanics of it, but the people as well. More than the mechanics, the people is the major component here.

00:15:20 Joel Klemmer: I absolutely love remote work. I know that's a you know, everybody wants to bring everyone back into the office. I love remote work and I love technology. And the reason why I like it so much is all it does is multiply whatever ambition is. If you have an A type personality, then you are demanding that remote worker to stop working right? Turn it off, put your screen down, go out and do something. Go take a shower. Go to the gym. Please stop working. Most people don't like remote work because you can't keep people accountable and they do what they want. Well guess what? It makes it a whole lot easier to find those people when they're remote working, because they are accountable for themselves and they're going to do what they naturally do. So you can find the character very quickly. Same thing with AI. AI is a learning tool and you put inputs in it and it, you know, basically between the nodes finds relationships. And at the end we'll put the output. Well, if what's in there is not defined, not clear, not exactly what you're looking for. It's going to hallucinate. It's going to give you basically whatever you put in it. Now for us, if the input is laws, regulations, objective market, very deep best practices, whether it's global frameworks or, uh, you know, fill in the blank, then that's what the standard is going to be. And so I love AI because it allows you to, as long as you create avionic workflows that truly put the put everything to the standard and then hold everything to the standard. But you also have to bring everyone else up to that standard as well. Otherwise, you're just going to get a very lovely conversation that means absolutely nothing. And I'm sure none of us have ever seen that.

00:17:30 Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah.

00:17:32 Sana: Okay. and I also want to bring in, uh, the idea of a leadership operating system, uh, because it's one of the most useful frames in your work. So, what what do you mean by this? You know, we have given like a glimpse, but in, in details like, you know, let's say for someone. Okay, let me rephrase that. Um, what does an organization look like when it has one versus when it doesn't?

00:18:02 Joel Klemmer: As far as a, a leader within the framework?

00:18:05 Sana: Yeah. You know, shift OS operating system.

00:18:10 Joel Klemmer: So, so strategic synergy. I one of my favorite parts is I got to do a lot of research on leadership. And so it goes through the history of leadership. And so there's all sorts of frameworks. You go back into, uh, early Egyptian, you have authoritarian. And then you go through the different stages and there's different parts. So there's always going to be a framework. You're not doing anything new or out of the blue. But when you start looking at some of the newer principles and bringing in kind of the best practices, what what happens is, is the leader. It's no longer a title. And so whether you're an entry level or a senior level, you can still bring in leadership, you can still bring in values and principles. And one of the big ones is transformation leadership. And so it's it's that vision outside of yourself. Now most companies should have have a vision, have a strategic plan. But then the question is, is everybody in the organization not memorizing it, not giving everyone a card that they print from a printing and say, here you go, please memorize this. But are they living it? Is everybody living it? Does everyone know the role in it? Does everyone know the impact in it and is everyone tied in it? And when you do that and you bring in the principles and you have the knowledge and understanding of the different areas within leadership and what, um, staying ethical, having emotional intelligence, being objective, understanding cultures and diversity and why that's so important in organizations, you become a powerhouse. I can't tell you how many teams I have been into, and leaders will say, oh well, you got you got the C team and well, okay, well let's see. And, and these are extremely talented individuals. They just needed the framework to grow and to lead. Nobody gave them the opportunity because they were always put in. You're really whatever you give them, they'll probably live up to that expectation. And that's kind of where the infinite potential came from. A lot of it was kind of the frameworks off the Coke philosophy where, uh, Charles Coke has the, the ten elements. And so I looked at them and I said, very right, but I see some things that are slightly different. And so it was taking all the information, the frameworks, but the essential behind it is, is you're bringing people to their greatest potential. And most of the time we're limiting those people for whichever reason, in whichever area. And so you really need to give people the full breadth to give everything they possibly can. Doesn't mean they go off and you do what you want, but then you put them in a confines where, uh, they're allowed to be successful, but they're being successful towards the mission of the company.

00:21:27 Speaker 3: Um.

00:21:29 Sana: But actually it makes a lot of sense actually makes a lot of sense. And that also makes me think, about, the digital transformation episode that I did. Um, that transformation programs, they have an enormous failure rate across industries. And you have seen this from the inside. So, are there any red flags that, can be observed or can be worked upon? Because on one hand, yeah, we, we, we see this from a surface level, um, the very usual conventional ways of implementing, designing and executing on transformation. On the other end, it cannot be always perfect. You know, you may have the best consultants, you may have the, the best information, you may have everything all the right, you know, ingredients in place, but then it's not perfect. But at least, there is that accountability and acknowledgement of, okay, where exactly the system is broken or where exactly the process is not in place. But then are there any red flags that you have observed and you would like to share with our listeners also?

00:22:45 Joel Klemmer: As far as red flags. I think the big one is to understand it doesn't need to be perfect. So so you mentioned change management. There's a lot of successes, but there's failures. And you can look at different frameworks. You can go to framework where you freeze, unfreeze, freeze again, uh, there's other change managements and they have slightly higher success rates. And then you look at some of the operations that I've done and no one says, how do you do all these big, huge transformations that have been so successful? Your success rate way above anything as far as frameworks and, and the reality is, is you have to take in the whole picture. And so something it may seem weird. Uh, so, so I just went into Gallup, McKinley, uh, county schools as the chief procurement officer and one of the first meetings I had is I told everyone, be ready for change. And how I told everyone to be is you got to be a Gumby duck. And everyone's looking at me like Gumby duck. And if you look at the old cartoon, you have to be Gumby. You have to be flexible because there will be constant change. Yeah, but what about the duck part? Have you ever seen a duck? They're just waiting on the water. And they look so calm, so collective. The water just rolls off their back. Have you ever looked underneath the water? They're swimming frantically. You got to be cool and collective on the outside. But trust me, it is not cool, calm and collective because we are going to be working our tails off to make this change happen. But but then on top of it, I gave everybody a grief guide and everyone was like, oh my gosh, we're going to be this is it. He came in, he's going to ask that he's going to bring all his people in. And I'm like, no, whenever you go through a change, it's equivalent to losing somebody. You're going to go through the grief process. And so I told everyone, some people will go through it quicker, some people will get stuck. We all need to help support each other. Okay. So there's, there's the, the or the shock. Then you kind of go through the anger, the depression, the negotiate, eventually get to the point where you're performing. And so if everybody's now looking for it, they're helping each other get through through it. And you'll see it because I'm constantly changing things because there's always something that you can be better. And so you'll see it and you'll see someone real angry. I'm like, you're at the angry stage. How can we help you? Maybe you need a five minute more lunch, come back, get refreshed. We'll hit it hard. How can I help you? How can we get through this stage? Depression. How can I be there for you? What is really going on and how can we help you through it? And so you're helping everybody go through this. And then when you're on the other side, it's so much more efficient. It's so much better. And transformation should be helping, not hurting, not another process, not another guide. Don't come up with a whole new strategic synergy, a strategic plan that twenty twenty seven, we're going to be doing this. Congratulations. We're going to change everything because this wonderful, beautiful consultant told us to. It's not it. How is it making our lives easier? Communicate how it's making it more effective? And if it's not helping in this area, show where it's helping someone else. Show the bigger picture. Get people bought in because when they see it and then they start seeing the change, It's been less than a year in Gallup, McKinley, and it's been more changed than they have ever seen ever. But it's more effective. It's more efficient. They're saving millions of dollars. They're affecting thousands of kids over a five zero zero zero square mile, uh, county. And that's, that's the difference they're making. But they see the impact.

00:27:01 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah. And.

00:27:05 Sana: You know, I, I absolutely realize, if I want to put everything in the context because, I mean, you have worked in the high stakes institutional environments. And what I realize is you cannot hide the dysfunction behind, this good overall quarter or a year or a strong marketing campaign. The consequences, they are too visible, too direct or too public. they kind of they will reveal themselves, when the time comes And you mentioned about grief. I know we are way beyond our minute mark, but I just want to kind of recollect, um, maybe, you know, it may sound stupid, but, um, I was watching this video about the Cassini, uh, you know, uh, probe for Saturn. It orbited thirteen years. The people in working in NASA, I mean, in that particular, of course, you know, the team, uh, when it got kind of, you know, of course it went dark and, uh, the, the entire team actually moaned about, you know, anyway, it was a machine. It didn't have any emotions. It was not a human. But I think it was more from a perspective of that how for thirteen years, that entire team, they, they, they came, they, they worked, they left. You know, it was all around that particular, you know, probe and, and it's all boring and it's all the data that it captured and all the all the, you know, wonderful pictures and, you know, the, the mysteries of the planet Saturn, it captured. So I think it was an emotional, uh, time. And I think that is something we cannot separate from anything as practical as business and entrepreneurship or leading people.

00:28:50 Joel Klemmer: One hundred percent. I couldn't agree more. I think once you get a effective a system, you start saving time. You're putting more output than you've ever done. You can't forget the people. I remember at the VA, everybody was in overtime. Everybody was worked out. We had backlogs and backlogs. We're supporting nine million veterans, second largest federal budget there. The scope of work within our department, one hundred and forty one point nine billion dollars, two thousand hospitals, everybody was in overtime and overwork. And then the change happened, and you bring in efficiencies and you bring in trackers and you bring in tools. Now all of a sudden where everyone's over time, now they're worried about their jobs because they're so effective and efficient and everything's like, oh my gosh, this is why do they even need us? And it's like, that's not true. We need you in other areas. There's still more to do, but one of the things that was so important is I remember we had everybody come over and the team now, we were remote at the time. We did have an office, but everybody came over to the house and we had a big meal together, and it was just a celebration of each other. And and to this day, we stay in contact. And I, I love every single member of that team. They're fantastic and wish them nothing but success. But but it built, built those relationships. I want to say like, you build a family, but but it it's so close and, and everyone's devoted to each other and everyone will help each other and everyone was towards the mission.

00:30:30 Speaker 3: HMM. I think that is the most important part.

00:30:34 Sana: Supporting the mission. Yeah. Because you you have, you can have all the people coming from different backgrounds, different thought process or belief systems. But, uh, it's coming for a collective mission here. The goal is that singular goal in there. Of course, you know, your voices can be different. So I think that's the most exciting part of it. of course it's not always all that rosy, but then, um, the good or bad, everything is there. So, that's, that is actually heartwarming what you shared. Joel. You superb. So, uh, Joe, before we wrap this episode up, um, I'm very sure our listeners will be very, very eager to carry forward this conversation further with you. Learn more about strategic synergy, institutional excellence. So how how they can reach out to you?

00:31:29 Joel Klemmer: Sure. I'm I, although I'm probably not the most social media driven, uh, I am pretty active on LinkedIn. Um, as far as you can, you can follow message. I'll try to get back as, as much as I can. As far as, uh, the website, I try to stay connected that way as well. Uh, Joel clemmer dot com is just more of a portfolio site. But really, if you want to see the mindset behind everything, it would be the books and, and that would be, uh, I've just kind of poured my whole life and successes into those.

00:32:10 Speaker 3: Inspired, inspiring listeners.

00:32:11 Sana: I'm going to have all the links and details in the show notes. So you can reach out to Joel on LinkedIn. You can mention that, you know, you heard him on this plant or you heard him on a podcast with Sana Butt. Joe, thank you so much. This was a very sharp and, uh, generally, generally useful conversation for all of our listeners and for me as well. Thank you so much.

00:32:35 Joel Klemmer: Thank you so much for having me.

00:32:37 Sana: And thank you to all the listeners for being here. Um, especially, especially to that one leader, to you listening right now whose teams keep running into the same walls. I think what we can do is here, just stop asking why the people are not performing and start asking whether the system is giving them that real chance to do or not. Because that one question, it does change everything. So thank you for listening to this and take care of yourself and your people, your business, your life. And I'll be back soon with another episode. Thank you so much.