Hi, Sonali. Welcome to What your Next podcast.

Hi, Laura. Love being here. I'm so glad to be back.

I am so glad to have you back. As I was telling you, you came on the show with Virginia Candra about five years ago. You both were besties and you just have this awesome author conversation. It was lovely because at the time you guys were from different publishing cows, so, which is not normal that I would get. Pitch and they're like, Hey, do you wanna have them come on the show? And you both were like so enamored, like you had similar books at the time, they were both reimagining retellings of classics. But you were actually so invested in the relationship and it was like so fun to listen to authors talk to each other and have this conversation about books and like writing and it's awesome. So I'll link it to the interview, but I'm so glad to have you back on one-on-one basis now.

Yeah. I'm so glad that I mean, I like being here by myself, but that was so much fun and funnily enough, virginia was actually in my home for three days this week and we were celebrating my the release of how Sydney got her groom back. So she joined me for my launch event at Anderson's and we spent three days doing what we did here for one hour, like we just talked and talked about. So, still very much invested and still one of my besties for sure. She's the best ma'am.

Oh, to be a fly on a wall on that weekend. Awesome. So tell us what you've been up to. Getting your new book out, just writing and just surviving, I guess.

Yeah, those three things, I'm I was on deadline for a good four months and I'm a bit of a I work in bursts, so, so, so, and this last year was just a little bit, full for me. So by the time I started the next book that will come out in 2027, I was. So behind and I hibernated for four months. For four months. I was gone for two months. I almost, for all of two months, I didn't leave the house. And I kind of, when I'm doing it, it's hard, but I kind of love that. I love being able to, completely cut myself off. That's just my process because I have so much going on. Normally I just can't seem to integrate the two parts of me, so I have to do them separately. I'm the release week was wonderful. I had author friends come to stay. We did the author event, and I'm revising that book now and kind of trying to slip back into semi, because this happens to authors, is that, the book that we're releasing is not the book we're writing, and so our brain very much in a different space and then we have to pull it back and, kind of go back to those characters. But they all they're all real people who live in our heads.

Yes. Yes, I love it. I think it's hard to kind of like juggle because sometimes the book that you're writing is probably your new child that you're getting to know, and so you're much more familiar with that space. But then you have something that you already written or something written like 10 years ago and you're like, I know this. But sometimes like memory, as we get older, memories starts to fade away and we're like, oh, they're familiar with us, but we're not as intrinsic as. The one that we're currently writing, we're not getting to know the characters every single day.

Yeah, I used to think that I'll remember in startling detail, every detail of every book, forever and ever. I think until I was. At least for, definitely like my first eight books. I was like that. And then I think, my brain is, the characters are still very real to me for all 12 and now 13 books. But then I forget like details of scenes and things like that. But readers will remember, they'll come, they'll come up to you and be and it comes back really fast. But I couldn't tell you like. I would have to think about scene by scene if I would. But the people, the characters I think remain very much real. People inside me. It's like people we've met, right? It's like people we've met. It's like people we've known and loved. So, for sure, and of course Simmy was, was the last book I wrote and so still Simi and are difficult to forget for.

Yes. So let's talk about Simmy. How Simmy got her group backroom back. We is a fake green card marriage, immigration issues, two sisters relationship that has its own trauma, its own character arc, and a story that just evolved. Talk to us about the elevator pitch and

yeah. So it is I think at its heart, a story of two sisters. And it really is about what home means, where you are welcome and why these lies, these lines we draw on earth. And then kind of. Ways in which we peg people into into legal and not legal, that lens and how it dehumanizes. I'm not saying I'm a, one of the reasons this book was so, such a growth experience for me and hard to write was that I'm such a rule follower and but having said that, I think it was one of my. Greatest growing experiences for that same reason that, this lens that we have. Of legality is different from the lens of wrong and right and we forget that. Right? And and there are so many things today that are legal that weren't before, and that's because the lens of wrong and right and the lens of what the world needs and what of reality is different from which is, which is not to say that. Law doesn't have its place, but it can be more absolute than wrong and right, and it can't be dehumanizing, which, when it crosses that line. And so these were the things that were kind of, what caused that seed of this particular story to grow. But it's really at its heart a story of two sisters who are in trouble. Who have not had a great childhood who've had to struggle to survive and who are in a position today where they feel pressed against a wall. And the only way that they can they can survive is by doing something completely Hackneyed is hackneyed, as One of the sisters offering up the love of her life to, as the other sisters, ma husband for a green card. And and of course there's, those themes are not light and their past is not light but life is light and dark, right? And li life is light and shadow. And so there's a lot of, there's, it's basically two women Coming into their joy, learning to live, love life, not just themselves learning to see a part of life they've never seen because we are not all born. It's a great privilege to be born in a place where you experience joy and where you can escape into humor and all of those things. And this is literally them coming into that.

Yeah. I think it's like it really allows the sisters to come together and to think about it. But I love the theme about what's legal. What's right, what's wrong? And I think in some ways even, 'cause we're talking about immigration is such a hot topic, we're, they're criminalizing, but the reality is a civic matter. It's like a traffic stop., Once upon a time, it was very easy to get a green card to get immigration. It was like you just signed a paper in Ellis Island and you're like, welcome to Merck. But law has evolved and has changed and. The court of public opinion has changed. And I think in some ways is like, how do you make sense when the thing keeps going higher and higher and you're like I can't live with this. And the same time, still have joy because joy is the ultimate act of rebellion. Like still feeling joy despite all the hardships, despite all the things. That's the ultimate act of of

I love that. I love that. That is so true of this book, right? It was it's for Ru To have that level of cynical humor. It's her, humor is the is the armor for so many of us, and especially today, humor is a coping mechanism for so many of us, right. And it's just like standup comedy. I think today is one of the one of the greatest bravest acts of rebellion. It's not it's somehow the impact of everything seems to be dulling. There was a time when I think because of how much we are bombarded with in terms of information. We've all gotten, it's it's like living in in the tundra. Your body stops feeling cold and it's like living in, I in on the equator and your body stops feeling heat the same way. It's for us things that should. Be devastating to us. And how much can you be devastated? It's it's exactly like how cold can you be and how hot can you be? How devastated can you be? And so when continuous, we're being bombarded with devastation. We've gotten, we are developing scabs in places I think we shouldn't. And I think one piece of storytelling is kind of to poke a little bit at that, and everybody deserves joy. And to do it, to do it. I think where it is both. In, in as real to me. My thing is I want this, I want these completely unlivable, these things nobody wants to experience, put into experiences that we, safe, experiences that we can have, right? And so that's the only way our empathy muscle gets worked out. Where we get to. Walk in someone's shoes safely. And hopefully that does something us in real life, when we come across, People who well for me it's that, the individualness of it is gone. Like we, we label across the board. It's all, it's these people and those people. And even, it everything is a label. Are you liberal? Are you conservative? Are you left? Are you right? Are are you. Mentally healthy? Are you not? Are you like, it's all but behind all these? Are you legal? Are you illegal? Behind? All this is real. People with real stories and a label can't replace that. And I think some of all my storytelling is that right for ourselves because as much as we do it to other people, we do it to ourselves. You're X I'm X, but I have infinite potential. Right? X I'm so much more than X and you are so much more than y. And And I think when we can't. The first step is to be able to see ourselves and then to be able to see the world with that same with that same kindness and generosity. So I really hope, like I, yeah, I mean, this is That's, we hope for the world.

Yeah. And I think in some ways that's why books are so healing because they teach you empathy, but they also teach you like opportunities. Like I grew up in a lot of trauma and. Just a lot of it and I realized, I found comfort in books because books were kind of like the the soothing balm that just got me through. It got me through while I was going through the trauma and also got me through outside of it and taught me what healthy relationship looks like, what it actually means to have joy, what it means to look for different experiences, what it means to have to build a healthy religion with your parents. Like actually like teaching your parents how to care for you. It is something you have to try to work on it. And books were kind of like the place where we learn how to foster those relationships. And I think authors like you who are writing those tough subjects, but they're writing with a sense of hope and a sense of like healing. That's where we look at romances. And romances is not just prescriptive, it's just it's a place where you can actually do the emotional work and then realize everything's gonna be okay,

absolutely. I think anybody who says romance novels are aspirational in terms of expectations from a relationship. Why, It makes me really sad. It should not be. Aspirational to expect to be seen and to be treated well, and to be pleasured and to be understood and to have to fight within a relationship for it. But fighting, right, right. Where you can actually change each other because it's the right thing to do, right? Not just peacemaking all the time, but those kind of real nuances. But but to think that. Being attracted to being understood by being cared for, caring for, to think any of this is aspirational, literally giving a pass to people to be jerks, and it's, it just it breaks my heart anytime someone says that. I mean, I had three of my author friends in my home and four of us spent my husband's traveling. My kids kind of come and go. Because they're grown. But the four of us, we, this is what we talk about. I mean, we talk a lot about books and we talk a lot about publishing and all of that and our characters, but we talk about our real lives. And I'll tell you that these are, nobody is. They have the kind of relationships and the kind of men who we do, right. Are, does that mean they're perfect or have six pack abs? Maybe they did when they were 20, but whatever. That's not what romance is about. Right? That is that's metaphorical and that's fun, but the real person behind the six pack and, the real human behind the one who's crossed his arms and is leaning on a,

Yeah.

that's what those books are about. And anyone who doesn't understand that has their own.

Yeah. Well, I think in some ways, unfortunately, the bar was so low for a long time and a lot of things and a lot of things that we now no longer find acceptable. Like I was in threats and they're like, men are like divorced. They're like asking for a mom. They're asking for oh, we're gonna be, so angry at the end, we're gonna feel so devastated that we didn't find a man. And I was like, but my life was actually, I chose to, my bar is high, and if I choose to spend time with someone I want it to be equally acceptable. And I am happy with my life. I'm not, I have unconditional love. I have like friendships, deep friendships. Hobbies, I have things that I get teach. Do I have a freedom to choose and I don't have to raise a child because that's what they're expecting. Some men are expecting. And I was like, no. And I think Romans gave me permission to be like, no, this is not acceptable.

Romance is really, I think about falling in love with yourself, right? Because I do believe that letting love into your life, whether it is, whether it's friends love, love is love. Whether it is a significant other or a friend or a community, a fricking aunt or an uncle or the parental figure, whatever, and that love. Can, you can, if it comes into your life, you can only feel it when you have made the journey to thinking of yourself as worthy and you are worthy. And yet we have to struggle so hard to get there, right? And so it really is a journey toward falling in love with yourself. And by that I mean accepting yourself for who you are giving thought to. What makes you happy? Getting thought to who you are, right? How you want to live your life, which is all the things you just said. It's this is how I want to live my life. And if X thing does not fit into that, then there is no, because that's what the patriarchy does, right? It puts everything in this neat little box. So it works for everyone. And by everyone it is people in power who are generally, generally and often power and. Powerful and privileged men, and also powerful and privileged women who have been used as mouthpieces or whatever, right? so so the thing is that yeah, no, I mean, children or marriage or all of these things are things for people who want them. And but loving yourself is a thing for everyone.

Yes. I think it's like active, loving yourself, active, like just, it's just choosing joy. Again, we just go back to that place of what will bring us joy right now in this moment? It doesn't have to be this big transformation or this big, curriculum or, and thing. It's, it just means what choice can I make that will bring me joy at this moment and moment by moment, you start to. Find your power and you find your, like your voice in many ways of like setting standards or setting boundaries or setting things that will work for you and be a role model to others, as a, as an add-on, not as a purpose, but as an add-on your role model's father. So how you

Yeah. And one piece of that is not having to hide, right? So much of again, keeping structures is about hiding. If I am you know what, whatever I'm struggling with and whatever, I'm joyous. Four. Both those things I sh to, it is a act of bravery to share that with the world because all we've been taught from childhood is in, how that can be taken away if you put it out there, or how that can get people to shut you down even now, like it's so much. This stuff is scary, right? You put it out. What, what will be misunderstood that I speak what will get, people to swoop down on me, all of that. But to, to op to out in the open show your true self. I is an act of bravery, right? Because, 'cause there's a million people interpreting that in any which way. And you are human, you're not always what's inside your head, what comes out of your mouth, all of that. So, so it's an, I mean, today because of the spotlight, it's just an act of bravery, I think just to exist and to continue to show yourself and, it's it's. But the more you hide and the more you're unable to be who you are. The less people, because we all in the end you could say something to me and you could do something, and I'd be like, wow, I wish I could do that. And if she can, why can't I? Right. And as and as women's, specifically, I think things like just. Stuff for ourselves or being ambitious or, all of that is put in put in a scale against what kind of mom you are, what kind of daughter, what kind of, wife. So much of it is even today I see, we'll see women publicly saying, sure, I'm ambitious, but my children come first. I mean, those two things do not need to. It is all the time. All the time. Whatever it is, it's how we've been trained. But I hear women say this all the time, and I'm like, my, my love for my children and my love for my work.

Yeah.

Are those two always. Why do those two things have to always be mentioned in the same Right told

yes. Yeah, it's just, it, we're just fighting the patriarchy one day at time. That's really comes down to it. And I'm so grateful for authors like you who are sharing stories that helps us fight the patriarchy. It's not an easy work, it's not easy work of like internal work to do that, but you're doing, you're setting an example in helping others to do the same thing.

I mean, it's going to, it takes all of us, I think, and it's getting harder because now. again, has been developed towards it. Right. You say that word and a lot of people brain just shuts down. And a lot of men's brain shut down, but the patriarchy harms men just as much. Right. Or also harms men. I don't know if it's just as much, but

Yeah.

but yeah, the ones who don't wanna conform it harms just as much. Like this whole thing is about being yourself and not being, not conforming to pre, preset. Ideas. So, Hopefully that, to me that's what drives the stories.

Yes it does. Okay. Let's talk about some books. What books, what type of books do you tend to read? I know you read a lot. You read or sometimes you know, based on writing may not be as much as you used to, but what books, what genres.

So I read across genres a lot. I do. Relationships and love and set, and a person and personal journey, as long as there's that. So, even when I'm, no matter what book I'm reading, I'm always zeroing in on the love piece of it or on the romance piece of it, on the relationships. Piece of it. So that basically is kind of what I'm reading for, and I really enjoy good writing. So, clever, lyrical, if I want to read a book. That is going to make me laugh, make me cry and change something inside me. Let me see something. One fresh thing, right? That's my, if I read a book like that where I've had to put the book down and laugh out loud sob. And then, wow, I never thought of this way. If a book can do those three things that's the book I'm looking for. So it really does not matter. Other than that, but of course for relaxation for it's, for believing in the world, again romance would be, is my favorite genre. But again, romance that makes me. Laugh and cry and believe, in the world and learn something new. So those are the kind of books so, so obviously the books that I want to write are the books that I love to read but that's more important I think, than anything else is that.

Yes. I love the fact that it's just give you a whole bunch stuff. I think I, I read across genre. Mm-hmm. And I didn't think I was, 'cause of her long time, I only read romance and then I was like, oh, I got a little too tired and I was like, sometimes I was like, I want the husband to do something that's not supposed to be doing. And so I started reading thrillers and horror and mysteries and stuff. And it gave me a sense of like, how. It's important to read genre, even nonfiction and finding different things that I got to learn about myself. It's allowing yourself to world expand and have the comfort of what kind of endings do you appreciate? I appreciate a tidy up ending, so that's why Romans works really well. But books like yours worked really well. Like it, it allows me the ending to feel Hope, at the end.

and that for sure you know that for sure. I understand real life. But I think to say that real life is essentially brutal and unhopeful, why are we all living there? We all live because we're hopeful. So real life is more hopeful than hopeless, I think. But I was saying even more, if I'm thinking of genre than, that, than romance would be my genre. I'm saying books themselves that, so it's not so much that, horror and mystery but it's within a book. That it does all the things that there is now, that there is so pot boilers almost, but literary pot boilers, if there is such a thing, would be my favorite. Where the story is happening and the rest of it does not matter. And the, the characters matter. If, I mean, I it's not a, dead body. I understand the familiarity of of genre where you expect a certain thing and you get that. So in that way, genre that would romance would be, my choice always. I'm not a fan of being, seeing a bit dead body on page one and then. Kind of, suspecting everyone and everything until the end. It just doesn't go with my personality. But but a dead body as part of someone's life, you may or may not find out what happened, but you learn something else along the way. That, that that's what I'm talking about

Yes. I love cozy mysteries. Cozy mysteries. They don't even show the data on the side. You just hang out with the friends. You are like, you have a cute little love triangle and you're just trying like the flow for romances and it's oh, this is great. There's a little death, there's high crime, in the city.

I'm really good. I'm like, because just as much as hope and and love and fighting for relationships is important. I think digging into why darkness exists, why so much darkness exists within so many people it really fascinates me. And so I think, a, as much as I love the I love the humor and the angst. I think digging into, the darkness of the human spirit is also something. So I think thrillers, are I would say it would be my. My second

Yeah,

Yeah.

I love this. Alright, let's talk some book recommendations. You had a few books to recommend our listeners to pick up. I do have, the first one was Layla at Casty and the Stars, I think it's

the

cast and the star.

but it's first spelled with an E. And and it's a delightful romance. It is. The it's kind of, it's set in in Canada and they both come home. And she has just gotten divorced and, it's that I love the homecoming stories where you go home to heal. And so she's home to heal from having been divorced. Her jo her business, that she worked so hard to build, being taken away from her as part of the, divorced because her husband and she owned the business together. And then she comes home and her parents run a funeral home. And it's a, it's an Indian Hindu funeral home and called moksha. And it is. And so she's back there. They live on, their home is part of, so it's one of those they live on the campus of the funeral home. And and she has, it's the loveliest family because this is a family who believes it is their their spiritual duty to to help people let go of of lost ones, of letting the spirit. Go and all of that. Which is why the cast is spelled with an e. It is actually written by. so so I think as an Indian author, writing romance or writing genre fiction and commercial fiction, I I'm. Hungry to read authentic stories by, authors who are not from privileged guests. Right. We, it, it is incredibly important I think, to hear those voices and because it helps in your, everything else, you've been seeing through through lenses of. People from, especially if you come from a privileged place, then all you've seen is lenses of privilege. Right. And until the person who has walked the walk and lived the struggle speaks, you don't learn anything. True. And and I think this book is that, is this and what, and it's also. I read books with Indian protagonists and for me it's the story. They just happen to be Indian and which means you don't, which is not the same as saying I'm colorblind and ethnicity blind. Right. It's just saying, that's not the whole point of my existence. And Layla does that with this book. She doesn't shy away she, she keeps that as, in the narrative. That's not what the book is about. And the book is really about her coming home. And her her childhood love, who has gone on to become a huge Hollywood star who lives next door. Him being there to shoot a movie. And he actually is, the movie involves him being. Living in a funeral home. And so he needs to come and kind of, so, so he needs her and her family for research. And so they're back in each other's life. And there were reasons why things didn't work out with them before. And it's a second chance at first love, which is one of my favorite tropes. It's the whole family drama. It's the whole, learning to believe that what society has told you about you is not true. And it's delightful and hot and just lovely.

I just love it and we gotta talk about partners and crime, about Ray.

Ali. I'm telling you, Alicia could just write anything Alicia could write. I mean the to be cliched. I would read her grocery lists. I can just even imagine gross grocery lists and I'll tell you why. I think there are ve there. There are. Few authors who for me, are able to do a certain level of vulnerability with their actors, right? Where you, where the characters are real people, where somehow you are slipping into their emotions and in a very visceral. And Alicia is able to do that, I think. And so I love it. And especially things like, angst and chemistry, she does so beautifully. And this is a full romp where another second chance romance. But it also is this kind of heisty vibe where they are where she's from a family of. And also again Indian perspective, we're not a monolith, right? So all of these perspectives we usually tend to have characters who have these cute, big, happy, boundaryless, but kind of caring families and and in, in partners in crime. She is, her dad is a, has been a conman. It's a whole different type of thing to be raised in. And, and so she, she has a lot of that in her, and there's a fantastic poker game, so, so they go to Vegas. There's gangsters involved. She's trying to so, so she's been kidnapped and her ex or, not a full-blown ex, but a guy she was set up with and really liked by a wedding by a matchmaker. Is the hero such, such a fabulous and she writes the best best heroes. So, so they kind of are. Running for their lives, trying to steal something. It's a rom across Vegas. And and just them finding each other and finding themselves, and it's fast and it is, and angsty and it's funny and it's just it's breathless. I love it.

Yeah, I agree. I can read anything from Alicia Ray. She can write the grocery to her. Actually, she had a series that was based on. Loosely based on Wegman's, the grocery store in upstate New York. That series is so good and you're like, first of all, Wegman's. I lived in upstate New York for, in my early time I was in the mainland and it is a great grocery store to Africa to have a.

yes. I absolutely each one of those books I loved, I also love her her original.

Swipe the social media influencers one. Great.

those are great. Even her like serving pleasure from way back, which, really

Yes.

I think kind of, is erotic contemporary romance. One of my favorite books. It's because it has that thing, it has that kind of, the angst is so real. You kind of visceral, you feel it. And all of them, the whole swipe right and, those even have really clever names titles. And then of course I love the family series that complication of characters coming back and everything. So I loved the Wegmans series. Also, she does have, she also did while he was sleeping, retelling in ya, which is wonderful. Yes. And it is while he was something I

I love.

have made. But yeah it's my favorite Romcom movie. And so it's really lovely to see that in her hands. Also, she does have a book coming out in April.

Yeah. I think it's enemies, some lovers. I think it is. It's like a trope.

I'm at sonali dave.com that has everything. Everywhere you can find me on social media. I think I am most authentically myself on Instagram. I am much less on social media than I used to be, but Instagram is the place where, where it's real and it's me. I'm also on Facebook. I do have a Facebook group but I do less. I might at some point do more, but I also have a newsletter which is very much which is very low. I should send it out much more. I've sent one out this year because I hadn't had a release. Which is, so I'm a little lazy about my newsletter, but usually it comes out about once a month. It's the three Rs. So it is a recipe, a recommendation, and a really bad joke from my family group chat. And it's just stream of consciousness what I'm feeling at that point. And just where to meet me, what's going on with the books, that sort of thing.

I love this. So Natalie, thank you so much for being on the show.

Thank you, Laura. This is always such a pleasure. Thank you.

Thanks for listening to the What three next. For more book lists, cozy reads and library tips, visit the what three Next block.com. Your next great read might be waiting there.