Bayan on Demand offers a growing library of courses taught by highly regarded scholars and practitioners. Designed for masjid board members, school administrators, imams, chaplains, youth workers, parents, and more. With classes on Islamic theology, adolescent development, non profit management, and the history of Islam in America and more, Bayan on Demand provides accessible knowledge for just 10 a month. Join our growing community of learners today and support the work of Bayan Islamic Graduate School and the Muhammad Ali Scholarship. Go to bayanonline. org, that's B A Y A N, online, dot org, to get more information. Assalamu alaikum. May the peace that only God can give be upon you. Welcome to the American Muslim Podcast presented by Bayan On Demand. I'm your host, Imam Tariq Al Amin. Each week, I bring you conversations with leaders across the nation, serving in a variety of ways. Today, we are honored to have Usteda Hazel Gomez with us. Usteda Hazel is a Puerto Rican and Mexican Muslim convert of over 20 years, originally from Chicago's West Side. She is a dedicated community servant. Islamic Studies student and educator. She's a graduate of Loyola University Chicago with degrees in Forensic Science and Biology. Ustedda Hazel has studied Foundational Islamic Sciences at Al Azhar University and continues her Islamic education through Rabata's Ribat Academic Institute under Shaykh Dr. Taimur Regre. She teaches youth programs for Rabata and advises on faith based community organizing initiatives, including Dream of Detroit. Named one of 21 Faith Leaders to Watch by the Center for American Progress in 2021. Ustadha Hazel lives in Detroit with her husband and three sons. Again, it is a honor to have you join us. Assalamu alaikum, Ustada Hazel.

Wa alaikum assalam, Imam Tariq. Alhamdulillah. I'm so honored to be here and share space with you. Alhamdulillah.

Alhamdulillah. It is a blessing to have you here. I just want to set the table here. This platform isn't just about highlighting the work, but it's also about humanizing those doing the work. Exploring their journeys and what shaped them. So that said, we encourage you, we invite you to share as much as you're comfortable with. Your story, your journey, and what shaped you. With that, where did it all start for you? What's your origin story, Ustadha Hazel?

SubhanAllah, Allahumma salli ala Sayyidina Muhammad, qala rabbi ishra li sadri, wa yasir li amri, wa ahlul akhdadan min lisani, yafqahu qawli ya rab. That's a very difficult question because in, in my life, and I know in the life of so many leaders, depending on the context that they are in, They will uplift a story that, that is the catalyst that moved them. And I think for me, I've had many of those moments growing up in my life where I've had those moments of, yeah, this, maybe this is my origin story. Maybe this. I think for me the crux of it is that I do not want anyone to experience the same pains that I endured as a child. And that means a lot of the systems that are in so many of our lives that directly impact all of us. So for example, we talk about the immigration system. I have been directly affected by the immigration system with the deportation of my father. We talk about the criminal justice system. I have been directly impacted by the criminal injustice system with the incarceration of my own father, of my uncles, of my mother of so many of my relatives. We talk about police brutality. I have had cops just roll into my house and because I'm the, I was the only English speaker When with my grandparents I had to be, here's eight year old Hazel having to be the translator between authorities and my Spanish speaking grandparents so You know, growing up in a Puerto Rican household and my paternal grandparents are Mexican, my home was also like a safe haven for the undocumented, a safe haven for brothers just coming home from prison. And when you ask what started for me, I'll share this. There was, SubhanAllah, there was this one day when I was really young and, I noticed one of the men from the community, he had been locked up for a minute and one day he just comes knocking on the door, my grandmother out here telling me, look out the window, see who it is. I see the window and I'm like, oh my goodness, I haven't seen him in so long. I opened the door and. Immediately, he's I just got out and I just had to come to Cuca and Shorty's house. I needed a home cooked Puerto Rican meal. And I noticed a pattern that so many of the men from our community, whatever decisions they made, but so many of the men of our community, our home was like the stop so they can get their first home cooked meal. And our kitchen table was just full of stories. And, my grandmother's telling me, get him this or serve him this, what does he need? And me just asking questions and my grandfather there. So my home was that safe Haven. And I'm so grateful for my grandparents for being individuals that people felt safe with. And I knew from a young age, I want to be that person. I want to be safe for people. I want people to know that they can come to me for whatever and there's not going to be no judgment. And my grandparents really, mashallah, exemplified that. And so I have many different origin stories, but that one sticks out to me as the one that I realized. And I noticed a pattern that, Oh, okay. Our home is safe.

That is profoundly beautiful, Ustadha. And I say that because it just wonderfully illustrates the importance of safe spaces. In building and supporting community life, you can't get around that. We could talk for hours just on that. I want to ask you about the term convert. And for you as someone who has been Muslim for over 20 years, how important is it that you identify yourself as such? Or is there a point in time where you may feel that it is no longer necessary to introduce yourself as a convert? Or does the word carry a particular resonance with you that Is not bound by time.

The convert experience is very unique, so I will always, I'm Muslim obviously, but I will caveat that with saying I'm a convert because there is something about converting that I can't pass on that, that I can't pass on that excitement to my kids. I can't pass on that moment where it's I was raised with this as a Catholic and I was raised with these mentalities. And I'm, going on 23 years of being Muslim. I still got Catholic guilt Imam. Imam Tariq I still got Catholic guilt.! Okay. I said that with some sisters and they literally, they're all Catholic. They literally were like, Can we start a Catholic guilt group among Muslims because my kids don't have that Alhamdulillah There's that moment where we have to make that like conscious shift. And I think everyone goes through that, even if they're raised Muslim. So I will always caveat that with saying I'm a convert because it does allow for some context in. Okay. There's a different upbringing and there is a different background. And that's why I also like the word, like people who are raised Muslim and they leave the Deen and they come back, they say recommitted, right? That they're re committing to this Dean. And I love that because people do have moments. We all stray off the path, and we always have to recommit. Yeah, I will caveat that with convert and also just not to go down this path, but I do prefer the word convert over revert, just because. Revert in English usually has a negative connotation and it means to go back to something, right? Like you're going back to their old ways. So I do prefer the word convert over revert. I don't know, everybody uses the word that they use, but I personally do prefer the word convert.

Okay. You have degrees or one of your degrees is in forensic science.

Yes. Forensic science.

Talk to us a bit about. Your entry point into that particular field and if there are specific principles or tenets of your scientific education that have influenced or impacted, had any kind of relevance to your study of Islam.

So I got into forensic science. As this way to stick it to the system. And as, and what I mean by that is growing up with the different spaces that I was in. I knew Illinois prison system, like the back of my hand, I knew what was maximum security, what was minimum security, what was low security, what was the farm in Wisconsin, what was the farm in Nevada? I say that because. I was deeply affected as a child with the criminal injustice system. And so it was really watching people and being around so many different kinds of people that I remember when I learned about how unique our fingerprints are, right. And just how we all have, these different patterns on our fingerprints to identify who we are. I remember thinking. I want to get into forensic science as a way to ensure that people are not unjustly being incarcerated, that the little details that are at a crime scene or the little details that are there, that they're really being taken care of by ethical people. Because one of the issues in forensics is there have been forensic scientists and crime scene investigators who are unethical and they tamper with evidence. So my thing was like, I want to be ethical and I want to ensure that, people are not being unjustly incarcerated. Plus I also noticed a pattern of having visited so many different prisons. Cause again, I had to visit family members and I'm grateful for the opportunity for us to have done that. And carpooling and all that, because it's not, it ain't easy, but I also noticed a pattern of why are there so many African American men in jail? Why? And in prison, why are there so many Latino men in jails and prisons and same for the women? And I was like this is weird. So here's. Eight year old Hazel when I'm just really looking and noticing and I'm like, this is odd So when I went into the field, it was really this way of paying attention to the details, but also Knowing that Allah has given us our God given Traits and uniqueness. He is a Al-Musawwir. He is the fashioner. He is the one that fashions us In very unique and careful ways. So my intention was, okay, I'm going to go into this field and I want to be ethical. And I want to find what the patterns are that my people are overly represented. My peoples and paying attention to all the details. And so when you're asking about how this transfers into the Islamic framework. Really seeing the Islamic ethics and how we should be upright and honest, and we stand up for justice even if it's against our own selves. These concepts are so deeply rooted in our faith that it would make sense for someone who is in the criminal justice system to also have those ethics, but that ain't always the case. And so it was very disheartening. But there was also one moment, I will never forget this. That's another origin moment. But that was a moment that I was like, Oh, wow, it's a systemic problem. This is a big issue. I was in a upper level forensic molecular biology class, and we're extracting DNA from different bodily fluids. And I remember the professor was describing what CODIS was, and this is where all the DNA is. And there's only three racial categories for CODIS.

Really?

It says, yep, it says white, Caucasian, Hispanic, Latino, African American, black. And I'm sitting there with all my identities, right? My great grandmother being black, my grandmother's half black, the native on both sides of the family, the European recent immigrants in the early 20th century to Puerto Rico, right? So I'm, and I'm over here so I raised my hand. I'm the only woman of color, the only Muslim in the class. Everyone else is white. And I was like, why are there only three racial categories? If it, this is, for DNA, that this makes zero sense because what would someone like me be categorized as? And I was like, and then what about somebody who's Asian? So her legit answer was white people are the standard and the people who commit most of the crimes in this country are black and Latino.

Wow. Wow. No, she did. Wow.

If I could have taken off my hijab pin and dropped it, that's how quiet it was. And I was like, I reported her, nothing happened.

Yeah. Yeah.

And that was a moment that I was like, all right, this is what I'm going to do. This is what I'm going to get into. And I was, I was already Muslim at that point. Cause I converted in high school. So I'm just like, Oh this. She really believes that she's really out here teaching this to university students, subhanAllah. So that was another moment for me where it was just like, there are systems in place that are super intentional, that even with our God given traits and uniqueness, it will be used against us in some way, shape, or form. Because who is setting up the system?

That's right.

And so the hadith of the prophet, the prophetic saying where, you know, he says, whoever among you sees an evil, let them change it with their hand. And if they cannot change it, if they cannot change it with their hand and with their tongue, and if they cannot change it with their tongue, then at least with their heart. And that is the weakest of faith. Meaning, at you gotta do something, gotta do something, gotta do something.

Yeah.

And it was it really led to a lot of my organizing even on campus. Being in the sciences was, it'll consume you, but it was really a transformative moment for me. And so that ethic, that ethical piece, and it started forcing me to look into like more of the systems. I was aware of the systems and I was learning it on my own as I was digging deep into the details of forensics, but SubhanAllah, it just that moment really angered me. And even now, just thinking about it, just like, how dare you?

So you converted in high school. Talk a bit more about that. Were you seeking something at that particular point that Islam spoke to, or was it, you walked into it?

For me, I and if it's okay, I would love to read this poem that changed my life as a 13 year old. So as a 13 year old I was. It was an eighth grade, just just graduating eighth grade, going into high school. And for me, I was going through a faith crisis and I was like, I had just finished my confirmation. That's what it was. I was 13, just finished my confirmation within the Catholic church. And the confirmation is you're confirming to be a part of this faith. But something was a little off for me and I didn't, as faith leaders, it's important to answer the questions that people ask. and understand that people come from different perspectives. So some people want the feel good spiritual stuff. Some people want the logical and rational. At that age, I really needed the logical and the rational. And for whatever reason, and maybe because I was 13, I was always pushed to the side and just Told mates, make, just believe you'll be fine. Just believe. And I didn't like that from the priest that I had been discussing faith with. And so I was reading as a child who loves to read Puerto Rican poetry and Puerto Rican authors and anything Latino and black, just like trying to find myself. There's this poem by Aurora Levins Morales called child of the Americas that just changed my life. And I'll explain after I read it. I am a child of the Americas, a light skinned mestiza of the Caribbean, a child of many diaspora born into this continent at a crossroads. I am a U S Puerto Rican Jew, a product of the ghettos of a New York. I have never known an immigrant and the daughter and granddaughter of immigrants. I speak English with passion. It's the tongue of my consciousness, a flashing knife blade of crystal. My tool, my craft. I am Caribeña, island grown, Spanish is in my flesh, ripples from my tongue, lodge in my hips, the language of garlic and mangoes, the singing of poetry, the flying gestures of my hands. I am of Latinoamerica, rooted in the history of my continent, I speak from that body. I am not African, Africa is in me, but I cannot return. I am not Taina, Taino is in me, but there is no way back. I am not European. Europe lives in me, but I have no home there. I am new. History made me. My first language was Spanglish. I was born at the crossroads. And I am whole.

That's beautiful. That, that, that is beautiful. Why do I feel like I've heard this before? I'm not It seems like something I might have heard on on WBEZ.

They

No, seriously, they do artists showcase Yeah, that was absolutely beautiful. So what does that mean to you?

Yeah. So as someone who growing up and like I mentioned, and always being around so many family members and so many different family members being Puerto Rican and Mexican, the various histories, my great grandmother I was, I slept over her house every weekend. So I heard stories of her father's enslavement in Puerto Rico, right? Like I just have all these familial stories and I always wondered who am I? What made me would I, if, literally, I'd be like, if colonialism didn't happen, would I be in West Africa? If colonialism didn't happen, would I be in Puerto Rico, in the rainforest, where, you know, near the rainforest where my family is from? Would I be on the borderlands, because the border crossed us, right? Would I be in Southern Spain? With family that I'm sure is still there because migration happened in the early in the 1930s from Southern Spain, very recent. So I was just thinking, but what also struck me was when she said, I am a U. S. Puerto Rican Jew. And I was like, Hold up, what? We can be Latino and something else? Because our culture and religion is can be so entrenched. That I was like, there is a different way to view the world. And so really, Starting at the age of 16 in high school, that's when I made the decision I wanted to be Muslim when I was 16. And I went to a school way up on the north side. I went to Northside College Prep High School, going from Humboldt Park all the way up there. That was a trek. But being exposed to different Communities. Really, I became friends with the Muslim girls because they didn't drink, they didn't date, they didn't sneak out the house, they didn't do a lot of the things that teenagers, some do, but also I was raised by my grandparents. And they gave me a talking to of we expect better from you. Don't disappoint us. You're going to a good high school. And Just be right. And, as my as we have in the prophetic, in our tradition, in Islam as a saying we also have an in Latino culture, in Spanish idiom is tell me who your friends are and I'll tell you who you are.

That's right.

Dime con quien anda y te diré quien eres, so I honestly just became friends with them cause I was like, Oh, they got the same values, period. We're done. We're good. We're going to be friends.

The law of association.

Absolutely. Absolutely.

So much of what you said landed with me, and it brings to mind the idea of double consciousness, a term coined by W. E. B Du Bois, a scholar that many of our listeners I'm sure are familiar with. If you're not familiar with him this comes from the book, The Souls of Black Folk. The idea is that we live with a tension. We live in two different realities and often opposing. And unfortunately, while it is not the case in every instance, it does occur far too often that people who enter into Islam, there's either an explicit or implicit expectation that they shed off who they were before they entered into Islam. Instead of it being a refinement, it becomes an erasure. An erasure of cultural identity, ethnic identity, and so on. How important has that been for you to make that connection and reconcile those identities in your practice of Islam?

It's transformative to acknowledge it and know that I don't have to camouflage as anyone else. It was very difficult in the beginning as I started to meet more Latina Muslims and Latino Muslims and just hearing their stories and meeting more African American Muslims as well, who hearing and hearing their stories and how they acclimated with these cultural things. I started to pay attention to how people have culture, right? And there's so many things that make up culture. One of the things that I do my best to do during an example would be like during the month of Ramadan is having. What would be considered traditional Mexican Puerto Rican foods that happen over like the Christmas holiday season? And we're not gonna have them over December, but we don't have them during Ramadan So so it would be like that So that association with Oh, I smell my boys, right? Oh, I smell tamales. We're having it a lot. Like it's Ramadan, like these are foods that traditionally are cooked over the Christmas holiday season.

Right

so I noticed that it's not just me. There's a lot of other Latinas and Latinos as well, who are using their traditional holiday food and making it their Ramadan holiday food and their Eid food so that it's it's already there. But now it's, you're just changing it when you're serving it. So that's like an example of food when it comes to ways of dress, right? I do sometimes wear a lot of Guapiles, like a lot of the traditional Mexican dresses, I just make it, halalify it, just make sure that it's good and presentable, but it's just showing up as. And I know, everybody has their expression of culture differently. Sometimes, for myself, like I have a few tote bags that are just strictly in Spanish and that's sparked conversation. And I appreciate that. Cause people are like, Oh, but you look, you look out of it or you look, like some people would think I'm Asian, like they'll say Chinese or they'll say, Yeah. Or they'll say Arab and, people who know would be like, you look like this country. I've only gotten mistaken as Puerto Rican once. And I was like, yes. Meaning the person was like, you look Puerto Rican. I was like thank you. so much. But I know for me, like even keeping my name, right? Like I kept my name when I got married. I kept my name when I converted Hazel Gomez. That's what you're going to get. But even when I got married, I didn't change my name. And for me, it's my intention was, I want this to be thou. I want this to people to know that there is a Gomez that's Muslim. And even Hazel has, doesn't have a bad meaning. And, it's a really old school American name, but. It's okay, what's my Muslim name? My Muslim name is Hazel cause Hazel Gomez is Muslim. So my Muslim name is Hazel.

Yes. I've always loved that retort when someone says, what's your Muslim name? And it's my name is Eric Jones.

Yeah.

Eric Jones is now a Muslim name.

Exactly.

So yeah, that goes definitely into, pushing back against these. This expectation of conformity and, but as Ustada Hazel, can you talk about the importance of your journey and your teachers are Shaykhas, right? These are women learned women, and how important that has been for you and how you have acquired knowledge and also how that influences the way that. You impart knowledge.

SubhanAllah. When it comes, when I converted, I immediately was embraced by my friends and they were teaching me like different things and I'm so grateful for them on those Wednesday afternoons in the local university library just teaching me the hazel class. I was learning fiqh and I was learning hadith and I was learning the Arabic alphabet and learning how to pray, obviously. SubhanAllah. So learning was something that I've always been a learner. Talking about colonialism at 13, right? I've always been a reader, right? So just like learning is it's so important to me. There was a moment where I learned something from someone and it didn't sit right with me. And I was like, This doesn't sound right. So I pushed back and Hamdallah she Mashallah for her humility. She's Oh, I went to my shaykh and he actually told me what I told you was a cultural thing. And I'm so sorry. And it was that moment that I was like I gotta study this deen. I gotta learn this deen for myself and understand where it's coming from. So I kept, Seeking knowledge in a very piecemeal fashion. And what I mean by that was like, I masjid hopped and I went to different mosques in the Chicagoland area and outside of Chicago. And I just kept seeking and learning and taking, so many different classes, but there was a moment where I was like, I need a curriculum. I need something steady. And. And it was after I came back from Al-Azhar I was there for a few months in the summer time at a, with a delegation of Latino Muslims from the United States, as well as Latin American Muslims from across Latin America. While I was there being in a curriculum having a curriculum, I was like, this is amazing. So I kept making so much du'a, I was pregnant, right? So I couldn't stay for a full program. My husband was just like, what am I going to do in Egypt? Masha'Allah. It was very difficult. I'm like, okay, I can't take the scholarship. Alhamdulillah, like it's all good. So I came back and I was just really praying for something structured. And subhanAllah, that is that fall of 20 No, I think it was like the summer of right when I came back to 2012 ish. That's when Sheikha Tamra came to the United States, SubhanAllah. And I just remember getting a call from my Qur'an teacher, and she said, there's a Sheikha coming from Syria, you need to meet her. Yalla, come to my house. And it was just openings, just Allah. He is Al Fatah. He is the one who opens like God just gave me all these openings and just to sit at the feet from up until that point, I had mainly only studied with men and then in Chicago, like a few women scholars who taught out of their homes, but like this Sheikha who had, students in Syria, students all over the world and Was like, just really teaching in a very unique way. Also, her being a convert, I was like, where have you, I remember telling her like, where have you been all my life? SubhanAllah. And I'm grateful for all of my teachers, Sidi Osama Kanon, May Allah raise his ranks. Just all the people who had, who poured into me, right? Who poured their ilm and their nur their knowledge and their light into this. Seeker, the struggling servant of God, I'm grateful for all of them, but when Sheikha Tamra came into my life, it was really like, okay, I want to study with her and I want to study with all these other women, but because what makes it so unique is there is this understanding, right? I I've been in many situations where I'm asking advice or something. And, sometimes the Sheikha or any of the Sheikhas, the Anisat, they'll say, I've been there, SubhanAllah, I've been there. And it could be something about the kids, or it could be something about something, right? Just like to hear that I've been there,

uh huh

that empathetic ear, it. It just brings this tranquility over the heart where it's what I'm going through, like genuinely know what I'm going through as a woman and, SubhanAllah, it's been a beautiful journey. I've been with the Rabat Academic Institute with Rabata, Rabat Academic Institute is part of Rabata. I've been there for well over 10 years. I serve on the board of Rabata. I'm the board chairwoman and I'm entering my second year. I really. See the growth of so many of my friends and colleagues, as well as women who had just started their journey with Rabota and learning with these amazing sheikhas who have all these ijazat, who have all this ilm, who, are hafitha, who just But are, also upright and they, like I said, they're pouring their knowledge and their light into us and they're also doing things with this upbringing, this tarbiyah. There is this upbringing and that, and to have that upbringing requires a really personal relationship subhanAllah and it's been a beautiful journey and I'm so grateful for for being with so many different women scholars and also benefiting from our you know male scholars as well obviously it's just a different It's a different vibe. I don't know what else to say,

SubhanAllah.

I will say this, right? It is difficult when, upon converting to Islam and seeing how often times women were often mistreated, right? Like, how often, there is No care for the women's spaces that everything looks beautiful and there's a new chandelier and you know The women got something janky in the back, right? But so that was something I really struggled with as well. I was like, no, this is not what Islam teaches It's not what God teaches. It's not what the prophesied son teaches, right? So it was really not allowing these This misunderstandings and this way of how we should be in community together. I tried my best not to allow these, this stuff to like really affect my heart. And so it's okay. Just where I'll go, where I'm going to be appreciated. I'm going to go not where I'm not going to go in a place where I'm tolerated. I'm going to go where I'm appreciated. I

love that the idea of not going where you are tolerated, but where you are appreciated that's something that I personally, I try to adhere to. And it also brings to mind how we are able to express appreciation in a number of different ways. I remember when we were designing the bathrooms at the masjid, we wanted to make sure that we sent a very clear message that we value, we appreciate, and we see our other half, our sisters. So if you go into the sisters, Wudu area, you will see that they've got a better spread than the brothers, right? It's much more comfortable and but that is intentional. It's not that we don't love our brothers, but we want it to be really clear about sending a message of appreciation. When you think about the things that you see that you notice at this stage of your journey, are there things that are more apparent to you as a teacher? Now, as an Ustadha, That maybe weren't as visible or on your radar at the outset of your journey.

So I do teach Halaqah with Rabata. This is my third year teaching a Halakha. So I have students from all over the world, it's incredible all over the U S and Canada and Malaysia, Singapore have some students in Germany. And Nigeria, just all over, really. And one thing that I love is that we are learning together, and we're sharing our own struggles. And even though I mention all these different societies, the, there still is one not having a foundational literacy of Islam. Is it still an issue? It was an issue in the past. It's still an issue now. And I'm wondering if it's an issue because there is information overload that people don't know where to go. So I love our Holocaust are completely free. But it is like January to December, you, Inshallah. So I'll be more than happy to share the resources about that, but. It's it's I really feel like with over information overload women and and even men, right? They don't know who is authentic or who's not right or who is You know Speaking off the cuff or speaking from their nafs their egos and not following the quran and the sunnah of the prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam So when I hear their issues i'm like, yeah because when I was younger in the early 2000s when I converted It was harder to come by knowledge or harder to come by things. But there was also like people knew somebody who knew somebody, right? Like it was authentic. So there's that. I think it's information overload is one who I think one of the beauties of our communities is that we really need to utilize the physical space, but also the online space as well. Like the online world is a part of one of the worlds of God. Like it's a world, it's a whole other world. So how are we navigating that world? Are we being good neighbors to each other and that world and utilizing that space where there is, social media aside. There is this deep connectedness that is happening across the world. Like I'm sharing their students from all over, right? But is there still that one to one conversations that are still happening? Is there, in person gatherings to help facilitate, that distance that people have? So for example, with my students, I do schedule, I have close to 30 students this year, actually, not 40. Last year I had close to 40, something like that. But I do my best to meet with each student one on one, at least one time throughout the year. So I'm like, alright, let's get our coffee, our tea, let's drink some water. We're gonna have a Zoom call 45 minutes to an hour. We're gonna get to know each other, because if you're in my class, I wanna know who you are. I wanna, and you wanna know who I am, right? For me, it's just, and that, I love doing that because it's the community organizer in me. Just like with the work that I do it's very much what's your story? I want to know who you are, what brought you to here? What, like, why, like, where's, how's your Islam doing? How is your Iman, right? As the companions would ask each other, right? What is your Iman like? How is your Iman doing? So I'm doing my best to utilize this virtual world, this online world, that is a part of God's world and using it in a way to still connect the hearts. So I feel like those two things, it's like basic Islamic literacy, and because of information overload, people don't have those basic Islamic literacies. And then two, even though we're so connected, there's still a disconnect. So even though we have. The online space, we really need to get back to inviting people over to our houses, just period. We are not I grew up with going to my friends houses all the time, someone would come to my house. I grew up with the, like I'm telling you, right? My household being that safe haven, people just coming over, we don't do that anymore. And I'm the, and I'm the first culprit of not doing that as often. So it's like how we cannot be that busy that we can't connect with each other in person. And it's just sharing a meal just talking just, being with one another and really Understanding and learning about each other. That is something that has come up often in convert spaces, where people ask, how can I help converts? I'm like, okay, not only converts, but like the broader Muslim community. We need to invite people, we need to invite each other to our houses. So yeah, so it's that. I don't know, like my, my, my head, I'm just feeling like that warmth that like, Oh, I have people over like that feeling that like hospitality and being a hostess and, just doing that for each other and know that it makes all the

difference. Yes.

So that's been, my observation in the last just now that I'm Teaching just what are the issues that are young people are going through the women, even men, subhanAllah brothers who approach my husband with their own like convert issues or just issues in general. Like we're just, we come together. If there's a project, what do you want to work on for the market? What do you want to work on? Like we'll come together for projects, but what about Just being so that's we got to just be sometimes.

Do you think, and it's not so much a critique and it may be an anecdotal observation, but do you think that type of relationship and that type of vulnerability, because that's what it is, opening yourself up to your students, as well as, vice versa. Do you think that is something that's Missing broadly. Do you see that being exemplified on a regular basis because I, 'cause personally, I often feel like there's a disconnect

Yeah.

In that regard, there's a hierarchical

Yes. Type

of

absolutely.

Relationship that gets in the way of the connecting, of our humanity.

Yeah, absolutely. Yes. I think that doing our best to be our authentic selves, right? While we are on the struggle bus, where we're all striving and just even though I'm in that particular space, even though I'm the teacher I'm still going, I have my own teachers who are also your teachers, right? There's a chain that goes back to the prophet sallallahu alayhi wasallam, right? And so when I do this, It reminds me of the story of the Prophet sallam that his humanity and who he was and Trying to emulate him, he's the busiest man ain't nobody on this planet earth Till today as busy as the Prophet sallallahu was he didn't even have a cell phone. Okay, he wasn't on whatsapp Here he is and this is where the importance of paying attention to people He's walking and he sees the little boy crying and he goes up to the boy's mother and says what's wrong with him? Like why is he crying? And the mother says, oh, he lost his bird. His bird passed away. Now Here's an adult asking another adult. Why is your son crying? He could have just I probably would have been like Oh, I'm so sorry to hear that and then walk away cuz I got stuff to do But the Prophet sallam, what did he do? He paused, he went up to the little boy and he asked him, what's wrong? The boy said, I lost my bird. And even the way that he addressed him, he said like the father of the little bird is what he called him. And he's sitting there like sitting on the ground with this little boy asking him, I'm really sorry that you lost your bird. And he's sitting there and they're talking, and one of the narrations say that they prayed a janazah for the little bird. They prayed a funeral prayer for the little bird. This is our Prophet where he took time out of his day. And he sat with the little boy who lost his bird, who was grieving, and he talked to him until that grief left, and the little boy smiled. And as I said, there's a narration that said that they prayed a janazah. Can you imagine this little boy just standing next to the Prophet and they're, Allahu Akbar.

SubhanAllah.

and just praying for the little bird. So when we pay attention to people, it's, we have this example, the prophecy of the sun paid attention to people, he paid attention to them. He shows us his empathy. He shows us what it means to be human. He shows us that there is nothing busier. That can keep us too busy than our hearts connecting and he connected with that boy Can you imagine what with how transformative that life? What is the life was for the little boy in that moment? And so for me, it's like I you know as we all are Striving on la ilaha illallah muhammad rasool Allah. We're all trying to be and walk in the footsteps of the Prophet Muhammad Sallallahu alayhi wasallam

Sallallahu alayhi wasallam

and so When I meet with my students, and yeah, and that's me, like not everybody does that. I do it one because It's, I want to follow his example. I want to know, he knew his friends. He knew his companions. He knew the people. I want to know the people and I want to, as an, also as a community organizer, when you get to know the people, you see what the patterns are. And when you see those patterns, you see what the big system issue is. And you just, as an organizer, you help people realize what that system was. So I share that story because. It's a reminder of at the end of the day, we are human beings and we have hearts and we grieve and we love and we pay attention and we cannot allow all the systems that are around us break down the humanity that Allah Subh'anaHu has given us and we hold on to our humanity by following the example of the Prophet

I need to sit with that for just a moment.

Yes sir.

What you have just shared extremely powerful, Ustadha, it reminds us of the importance of connection. And that connection is based upon our recognition of our common humanity. And that always brings me back to the verse of Qur'an where Allah tells us that we have been raised up for the benefit of humanity. And it puts, for me, it puts our, whatever that we're doing within the context of remembering that. But we're not separated from that. When you think about your journey, when you think about the different ways that you engage in the public and of course in the private spaces as well, as a community organizer, as a teacher as a family member and so on, how would you define your contribution? To the betterment of humanity,

that's a heavy question Listen I just turned 40. I should have an answer right? I'm a big girl now. I'm an adult My intention as I look over as I'm in the office looking over this really busy street here in Detroit, my intention is that I want us to, the first thing that comes to mind always with any work that I do is that, does it align with my values?

That's right.

And integrity. I have two very major values. One is integrity. And the second one is future generations, meaning that the benefit of future generations, inshallah. And not always seeing the benefit now. And there's a hadith of the prophet salallahu wasalam. Where it gives me hope and because we are a people of hope, we are of hope where, the prophet said, even if it is the day of judgment and you have a seed in your hand, you plant it. And I remember teaching it to my boys. And the first time they're like, you don't throw that seed away. I was like no young men, you do not throw that seed away, you plant it. And we had a conversation about that. And I was like, because you still have something. You don't know what's going to happen. You still plant it. And that's what we do that. Even if we don't see the benefits now, we pray for there to be benefits in the future, because that's what our ancestors did. They continue to do and integrity, right? To be ethical and to live with honesty and to live with wholesomeness. And for me, when I do this work, it's connecting people. I want the systems that we live in the United live in within the United States. Are meant to silo us and think that I have this issue, I have this issue, and we're siloed. Like even the way the media pins immigration as a Latino issue, it's false.

That's right.

It is not just a Latino issue. This is something that affects every single one of us. Birthright citizenship is there, like African Americans didn't have, were not citizens, right? That's why it was there. Indigenous peoples got their citizenship in 1924. Like what? So it's, this isn't one community against another, but we're pitted that way. I want to be a connector. I want people to know each other's stories and see each other's humanity because when you know people's stories, one another's humanity. And Allah says in the Quran, right? In Surah Al Hujurat, Surah 49, verse 13, the one that we all quote, God made us into nations and tribes so that we get to know one another. So are we really getting to know one another? And how does he end the verse? He ends the verse with those, the best of those are the ones who have the God consciousness, right? So it has nothing to, you're not superior over another person based off of what race or ethnic background you come from. It's the ones who have more God consciousness. So are we really getting to know one another? Are we breaking down those biases? Are we, checking ourselves and holding ourselves accountable when we're acting out of pocket? So it's, so connector two is. I just, I pray for the world to just be a little better in wherever God places me in my little corner of the

world um hmm,

Just a little better, just a little better for whoever comes next. And also as an educator of the Islamic sciences and also navigating and mentoring community organizers who are Muslim is always remember that God comes first.

Yeah.

Always remember to have God as the focal point. Because, as he said in Surah Al Ma'idah, he could have made us into one complete nation. He could have made us one complete people, but he didn't because it's a test. Okay, so we know it's a test. And now what? How are we going to pass that test? Are we really connecting with each other? Are we really knowing about each other? Are we really knowing our histories, right? Those who know themselves know their Lord. Are we really getting to know who we are and our own histories and of one another? I want to be a connector. That is a goal. I want people to, I want to teach and have that basic literacy of Islam. The fact that in Islam 101 classes, people are still asking the same questions is like the broader community outside the Muslim community, like the broader non Muslim community still got the same questions about Islam. So how are we even teaching? How are we, embodying this faith? And also understand that the personal is political. Just, being Muslim is hard. It's a it's very political to be Muslim. And there's a whole lot of layers to that. But, it's also understanding that we are striving to do our best to be among the servants of God. And we will continue to do that. And I just, I pray that if the Prophet were here, and if he sees all the work that so many different Muslims are doing, that he just, I pray that he sees our eventually we'll see and be like, Oh, my Ummah was here, like my Ummah did this all of us that are doing this work for the sake of God, that, one day the Prophet would be would look at it right in the next life and Just smile and just be grateful that his did so much to make the world that much better.

You mentioned earlier, you talked about the home you grew up in and how, brothers would, would come home. And your house was one of their first stops, right? They wanted that home cooked meal. And that just speaks to, that is community building. That is providing safety. That's recognizing the things that actually make us feel like we're at home. And nothing does that. Like food and being able to receive people. So these are the things that connect us going back to what you just mentioned. What have you taken from, actually, I feel like you answered this already, but if you would expound maybe a little bit more, what have you taken from that environment, that upbringing, the openness? Providing that kind of space. What have you taken from that and carried with you into the work that you do today?

One of the things is we live in a culture of selfishness and some people, and it goes back to intentions, right? Some people will do the work, Muslim or not Muslim, and expect something in return, or I did this for you. Why can't you do it for me? Kind of thing. I learned from an early age. of recognizing what privilege looks like. I had a home that people could come to and have a home cooked meal, by my amazing grandmother. And I learned early on, don't expect anything from anyone, leave it to God. And I saw that in my grandmother, and I still see it in her, mashallah. And I really took that away, because as I got older in this, these organizing spaces that I did this for you, you gotta do this for me thing, I wasn't used to that. So I'm grateful from a young age to have been brought up with you just do it for the sake of God, and you keep it moving. And then the blessing, SubhanAllah, because hindsight is always 20, 20, the blessings that, that I'd noticed that my grandparents would receive when I would, just, I would be like, no, or, I would be like the little, trying to protect my grandparents space and sanity and SubhanAllah, they would ignore me and then I would see the fruits and I'd be like, Oh, wow. God, you are real. I know you're real, but wow. And I saw the sincerity of my grandparents. And so that's one thing of just just let go. Let God, as we see everywhere, let go, let God. And just do it for the sake of God, have that intention and don't expect anything in return and really not to have that expectation and also to. I really want to be a safe haven. I've had men and women share really heavy things with me. And SubhanAllah, like very heavy. And I remember one young woman. I saw that something was wrong with her. Like I saw it on her face and I was like, what's wrong? I see there's something wrong with you anyways. And we talked and I just appreciated that. She said. You're not, thank you for not being judgmental. And I was, I appreciate it, but I was also like really taken aback. I was like, what, like, why would I be judgmental? She's because if I shared this with another, like Muslim. they definitely would have judged me. And I was like, listen, we're all people. We're all human. We're not perfect. Like I'm here because I could tell you need someone to talk

Right..

And even though those things may be spiritually heavy, I got to fortify myself and make sure that my worship is on lock and doing the best that I can. So that, that stuff doesn't stick with me. But to still, I, So that's sorry for the long winded answer. I guess it's just as I'm reflecting, it's I want to be a safe haven for people and be that connector and my grandparents really exemplified in me and showed me what that looks like. And also watching my teachers, like the sheikahs just like watching how they navigate in the world. And, I lived in I was in in Minnesota for a summer with my four month old at the time was studying to get an ijazah of the 40 hadith, and I had my four month old nursing him, I was there for a little over a month, so roughly five, six weeks, and I just remember I went up to her one day and I was like, I love how happy you are. And it made me think of the prophet. So I said I love how happy you are. And, we talked and she just chuckled and, SubhanAllah. At the RCC, at the Roboto Cultural Center, there is a huge world map and it's upside down. And it's a very Native American tradition. She learned that, right? And it's a Native American saying essentially until the world gets right, then we can put it right side up. But right now it's upside down. So people often ask, like, why is the map upside down? And she says that, and she says it with conviction. And she says it like, the world is upside down and we're doing our best To get it upright. So I see her face in my, I see her smiling face in my head. And I see that map and that's our goal, right? We're supposed to be the Caliphs on this earth at caretakers. They were the caretakers of the earth and the guardians of the earth. How are we bringing joy to each other? How are you bringing faith to each other? Literally like really living it, even with the difficulties, even with the, Political chaos that we're currently in that I almost feel like I had a heart attack two days ago. But it's, we still got to be joyful because the prophesy showed us what it looks like to go through stuff like this. And we got this. Bismillah. We got to say Bismillah and keep going.

That's right. That's right. My final question. In addition to everything that you're doing, you're also a student at Bayan Islamic graduate school. Yes. Can you talk a bit about just how that came about? What does that mean for you? What value has that added? To your to your seeking and, just you.

Yeah. So I've had my eye on Bayan for many years. I remember I went to LA for a program to visit this, to attend the program at Bayan and also to to check it out and ask questions. And I remember telling myself, I'm going to, I'm going to get a degree at Bayonne. And that was like in 2015. That was 10 years ago. SubhanAllah. And I was determined. And SubhanAllah. Bayan has been such a blessing. You don't make me cry. Bayan has, and I will say why I chose Bayan. Of all, as I was looking into graduate school and like what I wanted to focus on, SubhanAllah, God is the best of planners because right now I want to go into movement chaplaincy. So I'm getting my MDiv in chaplaincy and movement chaplaincy because I'm in organizing spaces and very political spaces. And there's a lot of anger. There's a lot of difficulty that happened in those spaces and, just mentoring people along the way. So that's my goal, inshallah. So I chose Bayan because from so many years ago, I watched how they, intentionally had some of the top scholars in this country be faculty there, right? Be, teach classes there. And I think that speaks to the importance of our Islamic tradition is that there are experts in fields, right? You are a faqih because you are an expert in fiqh, right? And, either you're an expert in all four or you're an expert in one, right? You are. You specialize in, tafsir, then you're the Quran person, right? Like you, this is the person you're going to go to, to understand the meanings and the explanations of the Quran. So we have this in our tradition where there are experts in different fields. And so you have Bayan where they have chosen like experts in different fields. And. It's phenomenal, to learn from Dr. Zarina Grewal oh my goodness, to learn from Sheikh, yes, absolutely loved your class, to learn from Sheikh Fouad El Gouhary mashallah, just the kalam and the theology, this, the, these really tough topics that we don't discuss enough within our community, to learn from, Dr. Waleed Mossad about the paradigms of Islamic spirituality, because there's paradigms. It's not just one way of Islamic spirituality. And Wahab, who like, my goodness, I want his class. I want to take that class again, or there should be a part two. A key is. He lives and breathes the Quran, in this semester, I'm with Dr. Miriam Shabani on Islamic law and legal theory, right? So it's, You have just all these incredible individuals, and I'm still taking classes, inshallah. Hopefully I'll be done in 2026, 2027, I think? Beginning of 2027. Inshallah. But it's absolutely, Just incredible. I'm, I've benefited so much from their expertise, from their experiences the conversations in class, in classes, like my classmates blow my mind all the time because it's so powerful to sit with individuals who are doing different community work and we're able to. Start having a conversation and I know what you mean, let's get going. I see lunchtime, like whenever we're at lunch together, for me, lunch is this is what in the past the coffee shops were like. Like everybody just sitting around talking and like trying to solve the world's problems. And we're over here in Hyde Park trying to solve the umma's problems over lunch, right? Over this amazing lunch that Cesar or Munir ordered, right? It's just, I get so happy. Mark knows, leave Hazel alone during the week. She's like plotting. I'm like plotting and just SubhanAllah. But it's been, it just makes me incredibly happy. And also to be able to have, conversations with the administration. It also makes a big deal. It is a big deal to have those conversations with with different instructors as well as like the admin SubhanAllah. I think that my experience there has been, I'm just incredibly grateful. MashaAllah, just incredibly grateful.

Alhamdulillah. We have come to the end of our conversation. I really feel like we could just keep going on and on, but I thank you Ustadha Hazel for making the time for this conversation and for sharing a window into your journey. May Allah continue to bless you, your family, all of your endeavors. Listening family, I want to remind you that you can support the work of Bayan Islamic Graduate School directly by going to bayanonline. org, that's bayanonline. org, and donating to the Muhammad Ali Scholarship. We've talked about this before, over 70 percent of Bayan students are scholarship recipients. So you can support that work. By donating to the Muhammad Ali scholarship. And you can also get your very own window into that wonderful coursework that Ustada Hazel mentioned by getting a subscription to Bayan On Demand. That's Bayan On Demand. It's 10 a month. We're adding more classes as we go on right now. There are about 30 classes that are on there. And it's all yours for 10 a month learning at your own pace. And how shall I end? I'm going to end by saying, don't just get yourself a subscription, get a subscription for your loved ones. Get a subscription for that person that you might be at odds with. Knowledge, useful knowledge has the effect of producing peace. So go ahead and make peace with somebody and get them a membership to Bayan on demand. All right, family, I'm going to leave you as I greeted you. Assalamualaikum. May the peace that only God can give be upon you.