Hi, I'm Paul Comfort, and this is Transit Unplugged, the world's

leading transit executive podcast.

Breaking news out of New York City congestion charging

halted by the governor.

Governor Kathy Hochul of New York announced last week the indefinite

shelving of the congestion pricing plan just weeks before its scheduled

implementation on June 30th.

The plan was going to be the first of its kind in the nation, and it would

have seen drivers paying up to $15 to enter Manhattan south of 60th Street.

She said the decision was made to avoid creating additional hurdles

to the city's economic recovery.

The move has sparked mixed reactions with some lawmakers and constituents

expressing concerns about the proposed tolling system, but the program's

advocates, including economists and environmentalists, saw it as a solution

to the financial challenges faced by the MTA in New York City and the

city's traffic congestion issues.

In light of this development, I, invited Matthew Daus the president

of the International Association of Transportation Regulators, to join us.

Matthew is also the former commissioner of the New York City

Taxi and Limousine Commission.

He is the, Transportation Technology Chair at the City University of New

York's, uh, Transportation Research Center of the City College of New York, where

he conducts research and continues to extensively publish as an expert on ground

transportation regulation and technology.

He's also a partner at Windels Marks Lane in Mittendorf, LLP, where he

founded and chairs the Transportation Practice Group since 2010.

A real New Yorker.

He's the longest serving Commissioner, Chair, and CEO of the New York

City Taxi Commission and Limousine Commission, where he served from

2001 to 2010, with 20 years of other service in government as an attorney.

I asked him to join me and talk to me about this development, and so he does.

He breaks it down with his opinion on issues, which is always stimulating,

and we also talk about the recent departure of Rich Davey, a friend of

ours, leaving the New York City MTA to go back to Boston, to the port there.

And also, considerations about what's happening with crime with

New York City, and is the Governor going to keep the National Guard

on the MTA, and should that happen?

These are his opinions, by the way, and, should not necessarily be seen

as the opinions of myself or Modaxo or Transit Unplugged, but very insightful

opinions he gives and I think it's a good invigorating conversation

on all topics, all things transit.

What most folks may not realize is that every day in America close to 40 percent

of the trips that are taken on public transportation are taken in one city.

New York City.

So if you can make it there, you can make it anywhere.

Let's join the conversation with Matthew Dowse about this halt, surprising halt

to congestion charging in New York City.

Great to have with us my good friend, Matthew Daus it's great to have

you with us today on the podcast.

You're one of our few two time guests.

I am honored, Paul, so thanks for having me again.

It's been well over a year, and it's good to see you again.

You've got a lot going on, but the hot topic we want

to talk about today is congestion charging, because there was just,

I mean, this was going to start in June, and now tell us what happened.

yeah, I mean, today we were supposed to talk about

it being implemented, and, the timing is impeccable, of course.

we had a big curveball that a lot of people didn't see coming.

and, I think people pull there's politics involved, obviously.

I mean, the first time when my former boss, Mike Bloomberg, tried

to do it, politics killed it.

this time, I think politics did the same thing.

And then two years later, we're back here at the table where so much work

was done in the lawsuits and everything was geared up and the plug was

basically pulled indefinitely today.

and, the stated reasons are things that a lot of people have been talking

about on the other side of the issue, which is this is the wrong time.

We're still recovering from the pandemic.

People are working from home.

We don't know if this is going to work.

so I think a lot of people were surprised.

It's not an easy thing to get done.

I think Mayor Bloomberg and Dan Doctoroff, who was pushing this as part

of before, as part of Plan YC many, many years ago when I was working as

taxi commissioner, when they pushed that, it was politics that killed it.

The politics, I think, were probably not as well thought out as they could

have been at the time, and then Jeanette Sadikhan came in and we took a different

direction with micromobility in the city and we forgot about congestion pricing

until our, my good friend Sam Schwartz brought it back with Move New York, and

circumstances were such at the time that, it was really, the stars were aligned,

and the Summer of Hell happened with, former Governor Andrew Cuomo, and, that

gave fuel to the fire with Sam's Move New York, program, and that's how we ended

up with congestion pricing being passed, and I think, the one thing I'd pause and

say, Paul, is that, congestion pricing could be a good thing, but there was a lot

of opposition here, and even though they did a better job this time of, you know,

There's a number of people that are trying to nail down the politics of the Rubik's

cube of, getting to a monetary goal.

I think we should take a step back, and this is great to hit the

pause button right now, because, it wasn't perfect, and even though

the political planning was better.

And you cannot remove the politics from this.

You can't get anything done in New York or most parts of the country

without navigating the politics.

I think that was the reason why the first congestion pricing experiment never

passed is because not enough thought went into how to balance out the interests.

And, it was, they did a better job, but it wasn't perfect.

And, and, and I think the real serious flaw with the entire approach to it

is it's not, it wasn't even openly about mitigation of congestion.

And, and the environment anymore.

It really wasn't.

It was about the money.

And that was because the legislature put a dollar figure in the law.

If they're going to actually revisit the law, Paul, I would suggest that

they don't put a dollar amount on it.

this is supposed to bring in a billion

dollars, right?

For their capital, MTA capital.

That's a, that's a flawed approach.

Yeah.

What they should do is figure how we're going to reduce, what does it take in

terms of, the price point or, other policies to actually reduce congestion.

And then let's see how much it is.

Different angle approaching it kind of on the, on the political side.

So just to kind of clarify to everyone, because we dove

right in, sorry about that.

I just threw you right into the mix.

But, Yeah, it was a 15 congestion charge that the General Assembly had

passed and everyone was on board.

Our good friend Rich Davey was on our podcast last year talking about how it

was going to be a billion dollars into their capital fund, which I always felt

like, they oughta, were hurting enough financially on the operating side, they

might think about it there, but that's the way the law was written, he said.

It was going to be a $15 charge for most cars coming in starting June 30th.

You got involved in a lot of your roles and helped them roll back

that for taxicabs and others, right?

Right.

yeah, I mean, I, I was involved at a lot of different levels.

My university put out a report on the equity impacts, just like

you're, similar to the discussions that you've had in your book.

and we felt that not only the drivers, of, of for hire vehicles and Ubers and

taxis would be impacted, but also the passengers in certain neighborhoods

would be, getting double the amount.

to come into the city when they don't have that money, especially after the pandemic.

And, the whole point is to get people into public transit, and people working from

home, and no one really thought about how this could cause more people to work from

home, and that it may have other, negative economic impacts on the city, but, a

lot of people, including Janno Lieber thinks I'm against congestion pricing.

I'm not against it.

I'm against the, the way it's being done, right now.

there was a lot of planning that went into this and a lot of hard work

from a really good team over there.

But if I had to do it differently, here's what I would do.

Press the pause button, take a look at all these lawsuits that are pending, sit down

with all the litigants one by one, and see how you can do mitigation and work out

a plan like they did with Congressmember Torres with the Governor of New Jersey

to see how we can mitigate, using the dollars and other mechanisms that are not

necessarily just money to figure that out.

Number two, let's look at things that other cities and states have done, around

the world in the few places that have it.

Yeah, like Singapore, London.

Singapore and London, like, let's exempt the taxis and the

buses and get people to use them.

They finally exempted the buses, but it was a long fight and they never exempted

the taxis, but they've been basically collecting money from the taxis and

the Ubers for for years and years.

And has that done anything?

No, it hasn't really mitigated it.

So I think what they need to do is number one, create a lockbox.

And this is detailed in the reports I did with the university on equity

impacts and also the model congestion mitigation measures that the IETR, which

is, the best practices group for TNC and TAXI and NEMT regulators, we put

out a report saying you can't solve this problem, Paul, by just money and you

can't solve it by not looking at other policies outside of congestion pricing.

You need to have exemptions for people who are sharing rides.

We need to have exemptions maybe for cleaner vehicles.

why not?

if we want to solve two problems and get infrastructure on the EVs and more

EVs on the road, why aren't they exempt?

And most importantly, technically, we don't really consider in most cities

around the country some exceptions.

Maybe when you were in Maryland, but, we don't consider the private bus

and taxi and TNC industry as part of the transportation ecosystem.

That needs to change.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

So, so put the money that you're collecting from those passengers

into a lockbox and do two things.

Figure out a way to get free rides to the disabled community.

they should not have to pay at this point.

They've been so, really, fighting this battle since the ADA was passed.

And they don't still have the service.

We have enough wheelchair vehicles in New York City now to have the MTA

run them and have congestion pricing money pay for that instead of building

more rail and more buses that may remain empty in certain communities.

Let's do a first and last mile partnership like the FTA Sandbox in New York City

and let's do it in the transit deserts.

And let's retool this whole thing and hit the pause button and do it correctly.

It's much better than it was at the outset, when we first started

this debate many years ago.

but now is a real opportunity, I think, for the MTA to do some listening and to

roll it back and get their ducks in order.

And then after the election's over, go back to the well and do it the best.

There's always going to be people complaining, Paul.

But there's just way too many people complaining too many lawsuits.

It's not an easy thing to implement, but there are still

things that they can do better.

So I'm hoping that they could retool it and it'll come back and

it'll be a more workable system.

And it will focus on congestion in the environment first, not the money first,

because it really caused a problem for, for Janno Lieber and the MTA because it

all became about the money because the legislature made it about the money.

That's the wrong approach.

It should not be about the money first and foremost.

So specifically, Governor Hochul announced, that

she is putting the pause on this, but there's no timeline, right?

She didn't say when, when it's going to be kind of revamped or anything.

That's correct.

There's no time limit.

It's an indefinite pause.

Well, maybe we'll come back and get you on again in

six months if it gets restarted with, with your recommendations or, or

other things that, could happen there.

but two things I want to talk about today is about crime on New York Metro.

We've mentioned that Governor Hochul, she put National Guard troops in the stations.

I want to talk about that for a minute and then an homage to Rich Davey, a good

friend of both of ours who is leaving out.

So first off though, what's going on with the National Guard on public transit?

A lot of people in America may not realize or around the world that

close to 40 percent of the people that ride public transportation in America

every day do so in New York City.

That's the numbers we're talking about.

It's, a plurality of the trips in America take place in one city.

And it's been the city that's gotten a lot of negative attention.

at least every week I see a news story in the New York Post, which I

have on my phone, Somebody got hurt, somebody got pushed in front of a

rail track, somebody got stabbed.

So the governor put National Guard on there.

Matthew, tell us what's going on.

Yeah.

And, it's funny because, when we did our podcast, the last time I was on, it was

the beginning of 2000, 23 and, Rich Davey was just starting and now he's leaving

his administration here is going back to Massachusetts for the port authority.

And, he's a great guy and, and, and he really fine public servant, then

we're going to miss him, just like, I kind of miss the train daddy too,

honestly, but you know, I got to say, um, we need to get this right.

I don't know if it's working or not.

There's a lot of critics about it.

I mean, I do know that the fare evasion is a huge issue.

There's got, there are other solutions.

I think that they're looking at now and they need to pick the right solution.

the, the security guards, if remember before they put National Guards in there,

Rich and, and, and Janno Lieber put, a whole bunch of security firms in there,

security guards to try to just stop people from evading fares, so I, I think the

strides are being made, look, there's, there's obviously attention on this now.

People have a different, no pun intended, comfort level on what they

would like to see in the subway.

I, for one, would like to see officers there.

There are other people that don't like it.

They don't, they feel it's unnecessary, but with cameras and

technology, I think that's really kind of where the answer should be.

We need to have humans.

I'm not a policing expert, but I do believe we need to have a

human enforcement presence there.

It shouldn't be like you're going into a war zone where there's people

everywhere and it looks overbearing, but there should be a responsiveness in a

unit and a ComStat system underground.

because it was done before.

The subways were safe in the past and we can get back there.

And I think technology is what is very much needed,

protecting privacy and so forth.

But, this is one of the things I would cover with my students.

If you look at any transportation sustainability textbook, right?

If you want to get people out of their cars, you want them to use

public transit, you've got to have a good, clean, experience.

They need to run on time, they, they need to, it needs to be a pleasurable

experience, and it needs to be safe.

So, the whole narrative of getting congestion pricing and moving people

onto public transit falls apart, and getting people out of their cars

falls apart if the system is not safe.

And if it's, if it's not efficient, so for all of those advocates out there

that are anti car, and they want to get people into the trains and the

buses, this is the public safety issue is that the, I guess the bottom of

Maslow's hierarchy of needs, right?

You go from the most important ones to the top.

so that is the number one priority.

and then, then you need to talk about efficiency, and price.

and, otherwise, it's possible the revenue numbers may not have come in.

there's a lot of companies that, are still working from home.

And if it's not affordable for people or safe for people to get

to the office, that whole modal shift thing is a big question mark.

So it's also possible that that 1 billion figure may not have been met, and the

prices of goods would be going up too.

So it's a very complicated situation, but the Governor, I think, is

making strides on this front.

I mean, I personally don't have a problem with the National Guard

being in there, but, there's got to be a better solution than that.

And I think it's a combination of Yeah, long term, right?

Yeah.

It's, it's optics.

I mean, the optics could be good for some people, but other people

might feel like this is a little overwhelming, Are we that unsafe that

we need to have guards everywhere?

so, look, it, it, it's a work in progress, but the good news?

Is in New York.

I think it's on the radar screen.

The Mayor has more appointments to the board.

Mayor Joshi and other folks from the administration and the mayor

and the governor for the first time, I think, in recorded history are

working together in New York City, which doesn't happen very often.

So I think the stars are aligned enough that we're going to get some good results.

The mayor used to be a police officer.

He understands public safety.

So, I have high hopes that they're going to fix that problem.

And I really have high hopes that the governor now, hitting the pause

button, they're going to come back.

And it's going to be better than before, and maybe they will get

some people to calm down and remove their opposition to it.

It's a great opportunity right now to try to fix the mess that it's become.

let's switch topics a little bit.

you've got a lot going on in your world.

You're partner and chairman of the Windels Marks Transportation Practice Group.

You're president of the International Association of Transportation Regulators.

You're the Transportation Technology Chair of the University of

Transportation Research Center.

You're also chair of the Bar Association's Transportation Committee.

I mean, you've got a lot going on there, Matthew.

and, and you're, You're wired and connected, which I think is awesome.

But tell us about, just a little bit, if you could, about the International

Association of Transportation Regulators, and you've got an upcoming conference

coming up, in Fort Lauderdale.

Yes, actually, thank you for all of that.

I, what, all of these different hats, I am very busy as you indicated.

But it really gives me a good and interesting perspective.

not only as a former government official and regulator like you,

you come out of the government world and now I'm in the academic world.

I'm in, I'm in the business world, representing businesses,

seeing the other side of things.

And I'm glad I stayed involved for the last 14, 15 years with the ITR because,

it's look, it's a volunteer effort, but I, it really, it brings a lot of joy.

to train regulators in multimodal innovation and regulation and

trying to effectuate change.

We have reports that we put out, we did a taxi modernization report

after the Uber taxi partnership.

We're looking to get rid of unnecessary regulations, but keep the good ones.

We, we do best practices and have a lot to offer.

We have a lot of reports on our website and our conferences, give

us the opportunity to get a broad, a broad base of people together to talk

about the issues and develop our model regulations and guiding principles for

anything from congestion mitigation to smart meters and how do you,

what's the future of the taxi meter?

so it goes from the broad to the minutiae.

and our, our conference this year, we did an equity conference,

2 years ago in Memphis.

and last year, we went to Scottsdale, Arizona, where we focused on automation.

and our theme this year is regulatory sunshine.

we're going to be, from the 7th to the 11th in October, we're going to

be at the W Hotel in Fort Lauderdale.

We have 3 conference sponsors, 3 counties, Miami Dade, Broward,

and West Palm, and we're going to have a taste of South Florida.

We're going to have various events in all 3 counties, but more importantly,

we're going to have an action packed program with an NEMT workshop.

We're going to have, our, equity, hackathon results, presented.

We're going to have panels again on robo taxis and where we are there,

where we are with electrification.

We have, we, we have a boot camp on it.

On taxi meter technology, and telematics and insurance, we're

touching on all the cutting edge issues in for hire ground transportation.

Buses, Ubers, NEMT.

And we really want to walk out of this conference with a better understanding

of, in particular, this one on NEMT and, work with Trapeze and MV and a lot of

work you've done over the years, Paul.

I mean, this is an industry that's being disrupted right now.

And the role of the regulator is unclear.

the brokerage model is under attack in some cities.

Everybody's got new software.

There's a lot of inventory that that the taxis have with wheelchair vehicles.

And, the whole system is, is being disrupted on numerous levels.

And there's this organization called NEMTAC that's doing a

certification for those who go above and beyond the regulations.

And there's a lot of government money available for this industry.

So.

In terms of what the regulators role should be moving forward.

That's one of the things we're going to be discussing and we're going

to tackle the tough issues on AVs.

we've been at the forefront of talking about the socioeconomic issues like

equity and accessibility, not just the safety issue, which is important,

but, we have guiding principles that are out there that are being followed.

we were raising the issue of accessibility and now there's companies that are doing

it in the AV sector, I think just like congestion pricing, Paul, AVs, you can't

remove the politics from any of that.

there's very few issues that you can have a big change in

mobility and not have to deal and understand and manage the politics.

Right?

on AVs, the politics are huge, you know, it's not just the safety issue,

it's, managing all the constituents, the Teamsters union is making,

a real push against having these driverless cars at the state level,

the accessibility community is waking up and saying, what about us?

Right.

so I think tackling those issues and navigating that is even

more important for the OEMs than all of the things that we're dealing with now

with, the mobility nimbyism that, that we have involving congestion pricing.

Yeah.

Matt, you're, I think one of the few guys I know that's busier than me,

I think, with all the organizations that you're a part of, but you just

announced a big, connection point with CoMotion and my good friends over there.

tell us about what you're doing with them.

Well, I really fell in love with CoMotion, when I go to every

conference as you know, right, and there, I see the good, the bad, and the ugly.

And there were two conferences that really stuck out in my mind as being the future.

Like first, it was the Shared Use Mobility Center.

I used to go there and see the future.

And then when I got to Commotion LA and I met John Rossant I realized,

this is truly like it's next level.

It's not just about sharing.

It's about everything.

Multimodal.

But what I liked about it is that the government attendees mix and mingle

with the private sector folks, tech startups, people who have all new

products, like they have like a little shark tank thing going on there.

Yeah, that's right.

I, I really loved it because part of the problem with everything in,

in mobility, is the government siloing and having their own discussions without,

and feeling uncomfortable talking to the private sector in LA and in Miami.

it's very clear that the public officials have different mindsets.

They clearly are more open to public private partnerships.

Yeah.

our, what we're, we're looking to do,

we joined each other's boards.

We're going to collaborate more and more, and, also bring an

international component to it.

I So we're going to try to marry our worlds and do programs together.

but these are the types of groups that we want to partner with it seemed

like it makes sense to partner with Commotion, that brings that private

sector component to it, so we have a lot of lessons we can learn from the

private sector, and I think John and his team have done a really good job.

I think, you know, you were there in Miami, I know, last year.

Yeah, we launched our cookbook there, he's got a recipe in it,

yeah.

I did a couple of the recipes, they were amazing.

Oh, good.

I also want to comment on, for folks who don't get your e

newsletter, you, you put out a daily newsletter about really interesting

news and anything related to people movement and it's a, it's a valuable

service, a daily transportation news that you provide free of charge to people.

Matthew Daus thank you for giving us your opinion today on so many

hot topics that are affecting public transportation and people movement.

Thank you for your work in the industry, and we look forward to continuing to work

with you and hear from you in the future.

Thank you, Paul.

It's an honor to be here again.

After this interview was recorded.

There have been a few updates to the story we wanted to share with you.

Hi, this is Tris Hussey, editor of the transit unplugged podcast.

In the days since governor Hochul pressed pause on the congestion

charging in New York city.

Criticism has been coming from.

All sides.

But that's not the only news here.

There were questions if Governor Hochul even has the power

to stop congestion charges.

Since it was the New York state legislature that empowered the MTA to

implement a congestion charging, scheme.

In the first place.

Plus the governor's lock on approval from the MTA board might not be

as a sure thing as she thought.

With several board members already stating they don't support her plan.

But the problems don't end there.

MTA chief executive Janno Leiber is preparing people for scale back

plans at the MTA because of losing this projected $1 billion in yearly

revenue from the congestion charges.

And worse.

Bloomberg is reporting that halting the congestion charges, and the consequenting

revenue hit is making bond agencies consider lowering the MTAs credit, rating

Stay tuned here on Transit Unplugged in the Transit Unplugged News Minute

for updates on this story, because we've surely not heard the last word

on congestion charges in New York City.

Of course we'd like to thank our guest Matthew donnas for being

on the show and talking about congestion charges with Paul.

And coming up next week, like we promised last week, will be Erick Van

Wagenen President and CEO of WeDriveU formerly known as National Express.

Erick and Paul talk about contracting in the public transit industry and

how it helps fuel innovation in our transition to zero emissions.

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